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<v Speaker 1>How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with

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<v Speaker 1>Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You

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<v Speaker 1>shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month. We'll get

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<v Speaker 1>you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug.

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<v Speaker 1>Sign up now at patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey,

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<v Speaker 1>get down, rock and roll build, We're here. It's dot

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<v Speaker 1>net rocks.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Carl Franklin, average cap.

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<v Speaker 1>And the end of the second day of recording for us.

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<v Speaker 1>So you know, it's been a good two days so far.

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<v Speaker 2>I got another one to go today. I've been knocking

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<v Speaker 2>out run as, having a good time doing it. Awesome.

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<v Speaker 1>I've already done a couple of Blazer puzzles and Jeff

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<v Speaker 1>Fritz is chock full. I saw our friend Beth outside

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<v Speaker 1>just now. Yeah, so who used to be Massy? And

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<v Speaker 1>now I can ever remember her new last name is?

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<v Speaker 2>It? Didn't change it? Oh? Okay, okay, did the wedding?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's true, I was there and I don't remember.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't even remember what I have for breakfast. That's

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<v Speaker 1>good because I didn't have breakfast.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, here we go.

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<v Speaker 1>Before we start, let's talk about nineteen fifty five. Episode

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen fifty five. This episode nineteen fifty five. So we've

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<v Speaker 1>been talking a little history about what happened. Okay, here,

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<v Speaker 1>What do you like about nineteen Well, I just know

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of things significant, you know, cultural, political, and

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<v Speaker 1>social events. The first McDonald's restaurant opened there. It's definitely

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<v Speaker 1>a cultural event. Yeah, yeah, fast food, right, Disneyland debuted,

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<v Speaker 1>and The McKey mouse Club premiered on TV.

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<v Speaker 2>Coincidence, I don't think so. No.

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<v Speaker 1>Politically, the Warsaw Pact was formed and West Germany became

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<v Speaker 1>a sovereign state. On the social front, Rosa Park's arrest

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<v Speaker 1>sparked the Montgomery Bus boycott, and the racially inspired murder

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<v Speaker 1>of Emmett Till caused national outrage. There's a lot more,

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<v Speaker 1>for sure. What are you thinking about computer tech wise

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<v Speaker 1>or science wise?

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<v Speaker 2>The first atomic clock, which was measuring the frequency of caesium,

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<v Speaker 2>so it was an incredibly precise clock. Wow, it was

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<v Speaker 2>the beginning of the atomic age. Nineteen fifty five, right,

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<v Speaker 2>But more importantly Velcrow now Velcrow and the Big Mac

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<v Speaker 2>in the same year, and the first wireless television remote

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<v Speaker 2>the Zenith flash Omatic. You know. I called it the

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<v Speaker 2>flash omatic because it used light. It used light. They

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<v Speaker 2>put a sensor in each corner of the screen, and

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<v Speaker 2>depending on what corner of the screen you pointed at,

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<v Speaker 2>it either turn channel up one or the channel down one,

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<v Speaker 2>or the volume up one or the volume down one.

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<v Speaker 1>Isn't that?

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<v Speaker 2>It was simply cool. And before that there was you

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<v Speaker 2>had a remote, but it was wired and people didn't

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<v Speaker 2>like the wire So this was the first wireless, just

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<v Speaker 2>with a flashing light. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I was the remote from my older brother. Yes, let's

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<v Speaker 1>get up and change a channel. I'll smack you right.

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<v Speaker 1>Were you the remote for your older siblings? Is that

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<v Speaker 1>why you play?

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<v Speaker 3>I'm the oldest, but I was definitely the remote for

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<v Speaker 3>my dad.

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<v Speaker 2>For your dad, I will have children except stupid.

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<v Speaker 1>I tried to train the dog to do it, but

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<v Speaker 1>never never work. It doesn't work out, all right, So

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<v Speaker 1>I guess it's time now for better Now a framework?

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<v Speaker 1>All right?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, dude, what do you got? All right?

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<v Speaker 1>So I went looking on what's trending in GitHub and

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<v Speaker 1>again for repos and.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of AI weird trending and here we are.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's an AI world, So this one is awesome.

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<v Speaker 1>Chat GPT prompts. This repo includes chat GPT prompt curation

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<v Speaker 1>to use chat, gipt and other LLLM tools better so

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<v Speaker 1>they chatpt but works with these prompts, work with other

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<v Speaker 1>AI models. Claude Gemini, hugging Face, jet Lama, mister Roll

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<v Speaker 1>and Moore. Thank you, thank you very much.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's not going to show up all the ship.

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<v Speaker 1>No, probably not, but Brandon, if it does, I would

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<v Speaker 1>like to say thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, so that's it. I mean, it's it's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of a long read me because there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>stuff there. Oh yeah, but here's just a couple. Act

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<v Speaker 1>as Ethereum developer, nice, act as a Linux terminal, act

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<v Speaker 1>as an English translator and improver, act as a job interviewer,

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<v Speaker 1>act as a JavaScript console, as an Excel sheet. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>some very creative prompts there. I'm sure people are finding

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<v Speaker 1>good use. So that's what I found. Who's talking to

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<v Speaker 1>us today.

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<v Speaker 2>Richard Gravin Kalinov Show fourteen twenty five, So going back

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<v Speaker 2>to New York, have a little bit. That was March

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<v Speaker 2>of twenty seventeen. We talked to our friend Damian Brady

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<v Speaker 2>about Brownfield DevOps. Yes, I happen to know Nicole has

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<v Speaker 2>done a little bit of DEVO related stuff over the years.

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<v Speaker 2>And this particular, this is when we're sort of talking

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<v Speaker 2>about bringing the DevOps practice of that sort of automation

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<v Speaker 2>and controls over an existing application.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, was Damian with Octoplus back then?

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<v Speaker 2>I think he might have been Actually, yeah, of course

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<v Speaker 2>he's a cloud advocate these days. And so our friend

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<v Speaker 2>Hilton ge Is now commented on that show. Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 2>he said, I was listening to the Brownfield devop show

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<v Speaker 2>and realize some things. One, A green field is actually

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<v Speaker 2>when it's lush and growing. Well, I'm thinking, say, like

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<v Speaker 2>a cornfield or something, it's actually about to bear fruit.

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<v Speaker 2>As contrast to Brownfield is one, it's just the start

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<v Speaker 2>of the process. There's sort of a file new project. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>So he's totally clipping the concept on his head. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>he's not wrong, Yeah, you know. And then two if

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<v Speaker 2>one things of financial services or wealth management firms is

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<v Speaker 2>the idea of quote unquote building a legacy is a

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<v Speaker 2>tremendous need to be proud of. It's something valuable lead behind.

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<v Speaker 2>Whereas the software development is concerned to all something old,

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<v Speaker 2>rotten and tarnished. It's definitely something you left behind because

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<v Speaker 2>you changed jobs.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so I'm thinking of ways that brown field could

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<v Speaker 1>be a bad thing. You know, I'm not so sure

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<v Speaker 1>I would want to walk through a green field, but not.

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<v Speaker 2>Through a brown field because yeah, you getr shoes to money. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not a good thing. It's not a good thing.

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<v Speaker 2>So I mean it is possible. As an industry, we've

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<v Speaker 2>actually got these terms flipped around, and you should start

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<v Speaker 2>fresh with brownfield projects and build a legacy system to

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<v Speaker 2>be proud of.

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<v Speaker 1>It's really smart.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, Kilton, you're so clever. But you know, the.

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<v Speaker 1>Planting grass, it's got to be brown before.

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<v Speaker 2>It becomes green, and then the birds are gonna eat

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<v Speaker 2>the seeds. You're gonna have to plant it again. Ask

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<v Speaker 2>me how I know, Hilton. Thank you so much for

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<v Speaker 2>your comment, and a copy of music Goba is on

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<v Speaker 2>its way to you. And if you'd like a copy

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<v Speaker 2>of music kobay I, write a comment on the website

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<v Speaker 2>at dotnet rocks dot com or all the facebooks we

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<v Speaker 2>publish every show there, and if you comment there and

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<v Speaker 2>ever read on the show, we'll send you a copy

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<v Speaker 2>of music Goby.

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<v Speaker 1>Music to Code by the Flack version is now the

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<v Speaker 1>most popular downloaded version.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because Flack play on everything, I presume it does well.

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<v Speaker 1>But what most people do is they download them and

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<v Speaker 1>Flack and then they convert them to wave right and

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<v Speaker 1>they you know, you get the same quality, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>half the size. It's like a zipped wave. Oh so

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<v Speaker 1>flat the flat smaller.

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<v Speaker 2>The wave is big.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, yeah, Flack is half the size, but it's lossless.

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<v Speaker 1>Good anyway. Music to Code by dot Net there's twenty

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<v Speaker 1>two tracks. Go get them there. They'll help you focus

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<v Speaker 1>and they'll help you be a better programmer. Okay, let's

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<v Speaker 1>bring back Nicole Forsgren. She's a DevOps and developer productivity

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<v Speaker 1>expert who thrives on helping large organizations reshape their culture, processes,

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<v Speaker 1>and technology to improve their business and enhance the developer experience.

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<v Speaker 1>She combines AI tools with developer expertise to help teams

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<v Speaker 1>unlock productivity in innovation. And I know this isn't one

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<v Speaker 1>of those bios that you feel you had to sneak

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<v Speaker 1>AI in there just to be relevant.

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<v Speaker 3>Because we know you really do that, I actually do.

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<v Speaker 1>You're an AI person.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my goodnessess, well, I need wear on Donna rocks

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<v Speaker 2>back in twenty seventeen with our friend Jas Humble in

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<v Speaker 2>the day, the Dora days and a regular on run.

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<v Speaker 2>Ass know, half a dozen times over the years, starting

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<v Speaker 2>with that in person interview at the CHEF conference. I

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<v Speaker 2>think it was. I think so it was a long

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<v Speaker 2>time ago. Good to see you again, Good to see

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<v Speaker 2>you having a good build, I mean love.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's historic in my mind, this period right here.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, really crazy emerging technologies. But you've moved on from Dora.

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<v Speaker 2>It got acquired by Google, didn't it.

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<v Speaker 3>We were acquired by Google.

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<v Speaker 2>Congratulations, thank you?

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<v Speaker 3>It was it was great. Yeah, the team that I

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<v Speaker 3>got to work with there was wonderful. And the Dora

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<v Speaker 3>team continues now.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure they still do the report every year. I read it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and then ever.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell me just what is Dora and what

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<v Speaker 1>was it? Or what is it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? What's the shorthand for Dora? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely So. Dora was a multi year now at this point,

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<v Speaker 3>over a decade research project that looked into, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>kind of investigating the types of things that can improve

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<v Speaker 3>software delivery performance and organizational packed and output. So things

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<v Speaker 3>that now everyone jumping the way back machine. Imagine being

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<v Speaker 3>the late two thousands, early twenty tens, when we weren't sure.

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<v Speaker 3>We were hearing stories that things like CICD were important,

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<v Speaker 3>that things like continuous integration were important, you know, in

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<v Speaker 3>particular automated testing cloud. So you know, discussions would come

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<v Speaker 3>up with leaders and organizations or managers and they'd say, oh, well,

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<v Speaker 3>you know that won't work here, or well that doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>work like this, or we're a different organization, or even well,

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<v Speaker 3>what do you mean by CI? What do CI even mean?

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<v Speaker 3>Because you know at that point also everyone's just redefining

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<v Speaker 3>it constantly, and so the research program kind of broke

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<v Speaker 3>all of these pieces down and tested statistically across the

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<v Speaker 3>whole industry. I mean, we had thousands, tens of thousands

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<v Speaker 3>of responses and so we could and data points that

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<v Speaker 3>we could really test on. So that's so DORA was

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<v Speaker 3>originally short for DevOps Research and Assessment and it was

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<v Speaker 3>the State of Develops reports. He originally started with the

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<v Speaker 3>Puppet team and then broke out and did it through

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<v Speaker 3>DORA well, and that led to the book Accelerate, So

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<v Speaker 3>some folks know Accelerate. Accelerate is kind of it yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>synopsis and summerization of the first several years of work.

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<v Speaker 2>I always felt that you were the person who brought

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<v Speaker 2>the real rigor to analyzing the results of these product

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<v Speaker 2>teams to show that when they followed these practices, the

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<v Speaker 2>results were substantial. They were orders of magnitude productivity increases.

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<v Speaker 2>Like it seems so anecdotal until you started writing those reports,

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<v Speaker 2>where now it's not acdotal, it's completely scientific, like, here

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<v Speaker 2>are the numbers, here's what you do, and you two

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<v Speaker 2>can have this experience, your teams can perform like that.

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<v Speaker 2>You know.

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<v Speaker 3>The other thing that I think was great, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I really value the partnerships that we had with you know,

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<v Speaker 3>Jess Humble, Gene Kim Puppet, a lot of Brown, Nigel Kurston.

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<v Speaker 3>I was this cute little baby faculty member and I

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<v Speaker 3>walked in and I'm like, I would like to help

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<v Speaker 3>you with some of your data. Oh, by the way,

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<v Speaker 3>let's also really rethink the research design here so we

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<v Speaker 3>can test some of these relationships out. And so, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>to their credit, they were like, yeah, let's go for it,

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<v Speaker 3>and so everyone kind of jumped in, and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>Papa had been getting some really interesting results before and

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<v Speaker 3>Alana Brown was the first person to really see that

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<v Speaker 3>this was kind of an emerging field and deserve some

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<v Speaker 3>kind of study. But by having this kind of research design,

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<v Speaker 3>we were able to also do things like what pieces

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<v Speaker 3>of continuous integration are important for performance and predictive with performance. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>So for example, it's three things. That's when you check

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<v Speaker 3>in code, you automatically get a build it, automa kicks

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<v Speaker 3>off build it automatically kicks off tests, and you have

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<v Speaker 3>to keep the build green.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>And for some people that was you know, like they'd

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<v Speaker 3>have two of the three because you know, it's same.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's same thing with AI right now. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>it's all about the tech. It's like about the yes

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<v Speaker 3>and the culture and what you prioritize and the decisions

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<v Speaker 3>that the teams and the processes around that. So the

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<v Speaker 3>nice thing is we had kind of the statistical significance,

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<v Speaker 3>but also the research design helped provide direction regardless of

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<v Speaker 3>whatever technology stack you were on.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was the thing that was so cool for

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<v Speaker 2>me reading all this. It's like it doesn't matter, right,

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<v Speaker 2>like you if you follow these practices and grow this

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<v Speaker 2>culture mindset, it doesn't matter what jewels you use. You

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<v Speaker 2>can get these kinds of results. You know, there's obviously

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<v Speaker 2>things ultimately need to build, but there's no secret sauce

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<v Speaker 2>other than making the effort.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and now you don't even really need to make

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<v Speaker 1>the effort. I mean, so many of these processes are

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<v Speaker 1>built in, you know, get up actions and things like that.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you have to set them up and turn

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<v Speaker 1>them on. But it's trivial compared to what it was.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the world, the world's different. But I would also

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<v Speaker 3>say that, you know, a bunch of this is table stakes.

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<v Speaker 3>Now it's super important, and if anything, it's more important

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<v Speaker 3>now that AI's here. Yeah, because now people are just

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<v Speaker 3>making code and innovating, experimenting super super fast, and you

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<v Speaker 3>know it just frustration and sadness and using computers and

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<v Speaker 3>anger if you can do all of this incredible coding

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<v Speaker 3>and prototyping and then you're stuck behind this giant wall

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<v Speaker 3>of waiting for build and integration and slow feedback and

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<v Speaker 3>flicky tests and nothing else works.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, waiting for iety to heat to bloy. And

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<v Speaker 2>remember build servers back in the nineties, build servers yeah yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>well and the build.

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<v Speaker 3>Master yeah oh yeah, what's old is new again?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and one person that was the only person allowed

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<v Speaker 1>to do the build. It's like build, we did that

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<v Speaker 1>on Fridays. But why we would do that on Fridays

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<v Speaker 1>before going home from the weekend, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>Because sometimes it took forty eight hours to round.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's true. Yeah, no question or was that it

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<v Speaker 2>was bunch like? So now a new book coming, Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>And I saw on LinkedIn you had a vote for

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<v Speaker 2>the title. Yeah, and I think Frictionless is such a

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<v Speaker 2>good title, Like it just gives me chills.

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<v Speaker 3>That's the one we had it on. So shout out

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<v Speaker 3>to LinkedIn folks. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a good name. What are you talking about?

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<v Speaker 3>So the book is about developer experience, right, and how

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<v Speaker 3>it's important, why it's important, how you can make the

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<v Speaker 3>business case, but especially, and I think most importantly, how

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<v Speaker 3>you can improve developer experience yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>We have you know, as a developer as the leader.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, right now, it's probably going to be easiest or

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<v Speaker 3>most straightforward for someone who is the head of a

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<v Speaker 3>developer productivity team or an infrastructure team or a DEVX

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<v Speaker 3>team or you know, pick the word that your company loves.

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<v Speaker 3>But there are still some really cool, good tools and

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<v Speaker 3>tips and tricks that anyone could use. You know, it's

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<v Speaker 3>almost like the old DevOps days, right, Sometimes you had

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<v Speaker 3>exec support, sometimes it was uh grassroots.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just you know, I remember we told the story

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<v Speaker 2>of this one person walk around asking questions. It's just

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<v Speaker 2>sort of surfacing areas really of friction, yep. And and

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<v Speaker 2>as the conversations start, it's like, hey, you know I

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<v Speaker 2>could build you a tool that would make that piece easier,

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<v Speaker 2>or you know, we can I could deal with this piece.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, the folks and OPS were able to do

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<v Speaker 2>certain things that was tough for DEV, and there were

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<v Speaker 2>things that DEV could build and made life easier for OPS.

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<v Speaker 2>And as soon as those conversations started bearing, things started

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<v Speaker 2>moving faster.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>And you know, so I'm writing the book with Aby Noda,

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<v Speaker 3>who is you know, founder and CEO of d X

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<v Speaker 3>and he's also you know, we're both but you know,

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<v Speaker 3>having all of these conversations with technology leaders and developers

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<v Speaker 3>and you know, finding the best you know, the best

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<v Speaker 3>practices that we have right now around developer experience, what

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<v Speaker 3>it means in traditional systems, how to improve it, what

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<v Speaker 3>it means for AI right now. Like I said, if anything,

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<v Speaker 3>it's even more important.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I'm just thinking about how because again you

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<v Speaker 2>and I've had this conversation many times. How different is

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<v Speaker 2>dev ops today? Admittedly, as car brought up, the tooling

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<v Speaker 2>is better, but the asks are different now too. Everything's

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<v Speaker 2>going to the cloud. People expect you to iterate very quickly.

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<v Speaker 2>There are almost no version numbers per se anymore. You

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<v Speaker 2>just supposed to the scale.

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<v Speaker 3>The scale and the speed and the size are really no,

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<v Speaker 3>they're almost On the one hand, I want to say

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<v Speaker 3>they're changing things, but really they're not. I think they're

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<v Speaker 3>amplifying things. Right, The fundamentals and the principles are still there.

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<v Speaker 3>And to be fair, I'll say that every you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I used to say every year or two. At this point,

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<v Speaker 3>every three or six months or so, I kind of

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<v Speaker 3>sit back and I say, has anything fundamentally changed? Is

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<v Speaker 3>something that used to be important no longer important? And

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<v Speaker 3>so far the answer is no. Right, we still need

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<v Speaker 3>to have fast bills, we still need to have good tests,

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<v Speaker 3>we still need to have good disaster recovery. We still

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<v Speaker 3>want to, you know, think about security. How that's implemented

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<v Speaker 3>might look a little bit different. And again, right, it's

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<v Speaker 3>at scale, and now we have AI not only are

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<v Speaker 3>things happening faster, they're happening larger, right, like our dicks

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<v Speaker 3>are much much bigger. So how do we think about

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<v Speaker 3>approaching that? So I think, you know, like I said,

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<v Speaker 3>on the one hand, it hasn't changed at all because

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<v Speaker 3>the fundamentals are there. And on the other hand, it's

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<v Speaker 3>very much changed because we're kind of dealing with different

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<v Speaker 3>technologies and new technologies and again different scale and size

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<v Speaker 3>and reliability and security. I mean, yeah, the world has changed.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, without a doubt. And then yeah, I just

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<v Speaker 2>think about you talked about the repository of prompts, Carl,

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<v Speaker 2>and oh, yeah, like the prompts are becoming code.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's right. They're becoming sort of the lingua franca

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<v Speaker 1>of you know, instead of I can imagine like a

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<v Speaker 1>sub stack where you're you know, publishing prompts, yeah, or publishing.

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<v Speaker 3>So a colleague of mine at MSR ben Zorn, has

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<v Speaker 3>been working on a project around you know, how prompts

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<v Speaker 3>are code and you need to be thinking about saving

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<v Speaker 3>them and versioning them because also as our models change,

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<v Speaker 3>different prompts will be differently effective, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, they won't be. It's actually from a historical purpose.

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<v Speaker 2>Interesting if they take this prompt and just run it

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<v Speaker 2>on all these different models and see how they're evolving too.

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<v Speaker 2>People keep telling me the new models are better, and

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<v Speaker 2>I keep asking them, how do you know? Well?

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<v Speaker 3>And also define better? Yeah, it's like define quality exactly,

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<v Speaker 3>so many different ways to think about it and define it.

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<v Speaker 1>And everything getting a little meta. You know, it probably

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<v Speaker 1>won't be long. Probably doing it now, you know, people

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<v Speaker 1>asking their AI to help them with their prompts for

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<v Speaker 1>other AI.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, it's happening, Yeah, it's happening.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Like, what would the best prompt be for you

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<v Speaker 1>to have this outcome?

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<v Speaker 3>And then well, especially an agentic right, because sometimes a

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<v Speaker 3>role is to execute something, but a role can also

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<v Speaker 3>be to write and craft and tune the prompt right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So why didn't you give me that in the

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<v Speaker 1>first place? You didn't ask?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're talking about this like rapid iteration.

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<v Speaker 2>It's going to be the iterating of prompts as much

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<v Speaker 2>a it's going to be the iterating of any given

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<v Speaker 2>piece of code. Yeah, and how that stuff ultimately gets generated.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, and then I think also not just iterating on

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<v Speaker 3>the prompts, but understanding and tracking the quality of cops. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>what does testing look like across different props, across different models?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure? Yeah, well let software behave the way the customers back. Yep.

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<v Speaker 2>That is a very broad principle. There's just a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of ways to get to that point that had come

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<v Speaker 2>close to a yes or with some degree of certainty,

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<v Speaker 2>just like my software is secure to some degree of certainty.

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<v Speaker 2>Does is this ux coherent? I mean, we usually don't

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<v Speaker 2>directly articulate those sentiments. We work towards them, but now

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<v Speaker 2>with prompt behavior, I think we tend to say them

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<v Speaker 2>out loud now because we have to feed them to

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<v Speaker 2>the machine. Yeah, to get it to start moving down

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<v Speaker 2>that path.

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<v Speaker 1>I had my first experience today with agent mode in

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<v Speaker 1>the Evisual studio.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you've been busy, Not really.

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<v Speaker 1>I just took it for a spin and I asked

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<v Speaker 1>to do things that I knew how to do, and

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<v Speaker 1>it did them, except it got hung up on one

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<v Speaker 1>little thing. Okay, So here's the thing. Blazer has these

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<v Speaker 1>edit forms and there's an input text that subclasses the

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<v Speaker 1>HTML input so it can support validation rules and things

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<v Speaker 1>like that. And I asked it to make a form

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<v Speaker 1>and it did, And then I said Okay, I want

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<v Speaker 1>you to do the validation on every keystroke. And when

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<v Speaker 1>you do that with an input tag, you use the

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<v Speaker 1>event on input right to handle the binding the bind event.

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<v Speaker 1>But you can't do that with an input text. It

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't support that out of the box. But the agent

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<v Speaker 1>didn't know that, and so it tried twice and I said, no,

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<v Speaker 1>that didn't work.

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<v Speaker 2>You're going to have to subclass that control. And it

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<v Speaker 2>did well.

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<v Speaker 1>I was the one that knew what it should do,

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<v Speaker 1>and it actually did it in a way that's different

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<v Speaker 1>than I'd done it. So I actually learned something and

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<v Speaker 1>it worked, and it worked.

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<v Speaker 2>But you still had to give it the hints. You

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<v Speaker 2>still had to tell it. Just speak to the role

422
00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:01.400
<v Speaker 2>and expertise in all of this though, absolutely, yeah, yeah,

423
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:03.920
<v Speaker 2>that's why I told the story. Yeah, no, I appreciate that.

424
00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:07.079
<v Speaker 2>And at the same time, it's like, it's not enough

425
00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:10.319
<v Speaker 2>to write the prompt, it's also to evaluate the results.

426
00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:12.240
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, you know, is.

427
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:14.920
<v Speaker 2>This good enough? Should it be better? Like you'd almost

428
00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:17.720
<v Speaker 2>have a default that says you should improve that, just

429
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:19.359
<v Speaker 2>to see if it does well.

430
00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:22.039
<v Speaker 3>And you know, it's interesting because now when you write code,

431
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:26.759
<v Speaker 3>you write generate code and review the code as you go,

432
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:31.640
<v Speaker 3>So we're sort of introducing another early layer of review

433
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:33.319
<v Speaker 3>code review.

434
00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:35.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

435
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:38.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, especially when you tell your agent to handle this

436
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:43.640
<v Speaker 1>handle this issue on your Kidhub repo, for example, and

437
00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:47.519
<v Speaker 1>it creates a full request and documents it.

438
00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:49.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, better than you. Better than you would.

439
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:51.240
<v Speaker 3>Have that, right, especially documents.

440
00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:55.319
<v Speaker 1>But you know you're doing a code review of the

441
00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:59.559
<v Speaker 1>agent and you have to figure it out. You're the

442
00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:01.400
<v Speaker 1>one that approves it ultimately.

443
00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:03.799
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's going to give us some really good questions

444
00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:09.039
<v Speaker 3>to think about because as we are evaluating, you know, reviewing,

445
00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:14.000
<v Speaker 3>validating code and pull requests that are entirely generated from

446
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:18.160
<v Speaker 3>someone else something else, right, we need to have a

447
00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:21.559
<v Speaker 3>good mental model of the code base and the architecture

448
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:23.519
<v Speaker 3>in our head to understand how it fits in with

449
00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:26.880
<v Speaker 3>how it interacts everything else like that, and moving forward.

450
00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:28.720
<v Speaker 3>I think that's going to be a really interesting question

451
00:22:28.759 --> 00:22:32.319
<v Speaker 3>and challenge because now none of my code is operating

452
00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:34.759
<v Speaker 3>production right now, but it used to, and I know

453
00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:37.200
<v Speaker 3>that that's how I built up my mental model, and

454
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:40.400
<v Speaker 3>I kind of like feel of the system was doing

455
00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:43.480
<v Speaker 3>that coding and writing that code, and you know, running

456
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:46.720
<v Speaker 3>these tests, and it'll be really interesting to see how

457
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:50.839
<v Speaker 3>we can help support the building of mental models, the

458
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:53.599
<v Speaker 3>evolution of mental models of how the back end code

459
00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:57.200
<v Speaker 3>base works because agents can and then agents will probably

460
00:22:57.240 --> 00:22:59.519
<v Speaker 3>also you know, evolve to be able to handle more

461
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:02.599
<v Speaker 3>of that. But at the end of the day, you know,

462
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:08.000
<v Speaker 3>developers are still deciding and approving and orchestrating all of

463
00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:08.599
<v Speaker 3>these systems.

464
00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:10.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, absolutely so.

465
00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:11.519
<v Speaker 3>Sorry that was real meta.

466
00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:14.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but we can also end that with for now

467
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:17.039
<v Speaker 1>right for now.

468
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:20.759
<v Speaker 3>Wow, someone tried telling me something was going to It's

469
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:23.920
<v Speaker 3>just impossible, and I'm like, m is it though? Things

470
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:26.279
<v Speaker 3>are moving way too fast right now to say anything

471
00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:27.279
<v Speaker 3>definitively Yeah.

472
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:29.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And then at the same time with like, I

473
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:33.440
<v Speaker 2>don't think the innovation is particularly wildly new. It's not exponential,

474
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:36.079
<v Speaker 2>but we're very much in an engineering cycle where we're

475
00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:38.720
<v Speaker 2>finding ways to slip these new tools in and starting

476
00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:41.000
<v Speaker 2>to think about how they fit together and what they

477
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:43.839
<v Speaker 2>could do for us. And it does feel like we're

478
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:48.039
<v Speaker 2>really changing the development workflow, even though the principles are

479
00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:50.680
<v Speaker 2>still the same. Yep. We're still trying to deliver value

480
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:54.880
<v Speaker 2>to customers and trying toterate quickly get those those features

481
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:57.680
<v Speaker 2>out as soon as possible. Take feedback from their use

482
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:01.000
<v Speaker 2>and shape the next versions something I guess it's an

483
00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:02.240
<v Speaker 2>area I haven't explored much yet.

484
00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:05.599
<v Speaker 3>Well, and version code. You know, before it was versioning

485
00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:08.039
<v Speaker 3>code and understanding tests and you know, building out the

486
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:11.559
<v Speaker 3>build graph. Well, now when lms are at the heart

487
00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:13.559
<v Speaker 3>of a lot of work, now we need to be

488
00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:17.119
<v Speaker 3>thinking about data and data versioning and model and model versioning,

489
00:24:17.559 --> 00:24:18.680
<v Speaker 3>and so you know.

490
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:21.640
<v Speaker 2>It'sa do you know they're getting better when you make

491
00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:22.359
<v Speaker 2>the new version?

492
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:26.200
<v Speaker 3>Yep, exactly, And then how would you roll back or

493
00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:29.039
<v Speaker 3>shift to a model or a model version or to

494
00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:31.559
<v Speaker 3>a to a different data set, right, And so, I

495
00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:33.640
<v Speaker 3>you know, that's another thing that I think comes to

496
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:35.119
<v Speaker 3>mind to some folks are like, well, you know, we

497
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:38.359
<v Speaker 3>won't need developers anymore, there's no junior devs. And I'm like, no,

498
00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:42.839
<v Speaker 3>we're creating an entirely new class of development. That's important.

499
00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:45.240
<v Speaker 3>If we think about the earliest days of you know,

500
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.880
<v Speaker 3>before it was DevOps, we didn't really have infrastructure teams

501
00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:51.240
<v Speaker 3>the way we do now, and they weren't we didn't

502
00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:54.720
<v Speaker 3>understand the whole industry, didn't understand how important it was

503
00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:57.839
<v Speaker 3>from a leverage standpoint, just like right now, right for

504
00:24:58.359 --> 00:25:01.400
<v Speaker 3>mL developers out there. You know, it's been kind of

505
00:25:01.400 --> 00:25:06.759
<v Speaker 3>a challenge. And now that skill set is super important,

506
00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:09.960
<v Speaker 3>and that skill set you know, plus plus plus plus plus.

507
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:12.640
<v Speaker 2>Sure, well, and there isn't I don't feel like there's

508
00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:14.440
<v Speaker 2>consistent patterns to making of those things right now. It's

509
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:15.799
<v Speaker 2>very wild westy.

510
00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:17.480
<v Speaker 3>Oh, because we're all still figuring it out.

511
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:21.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah right, and so we don't. I really haven't seen

512
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:23.400
<v Speaker 2>a set of practices that make me feel like that's

513
00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:25.920
<v Speaker 2>a way that's going to be successful. These new tools

514
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:29.599
<v Speaker 2>every day, and they're you know, moving the goalposts all

515
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:31.480
<v Speaker 2>the time, so it's hard to try and come up

516
00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:32.960
<v Speaker 2>with a set of practices that are really going to

517
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:33.640
<v Speaker 2>be consistent.

518
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:35.680
<v Speaker 3>This is a fun time to be in tech.

519
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:38.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, well, I'm kind of excited for a junior

520
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:40.400
<v Speaker 2>to imagine a junior developer just coming up now where

521
00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:43.160
<v Speaker 2>you're always going to have a prompt like, how much

522
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:46.200
<v Speaker 2>of our time is now scraping off the craft of

523
00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:48.720
<v Speaker 2>our old coding practices because we have all these new

524
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:50.880
<v Speaker 2>possibilities in front of us, right well.

525
00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:53.519
<v Speaker 3>And how much time can you save by chasing down

526
00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:57.119
<v Speaker 3>a problem that's just kind of silly and nonsense. I

527
00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:00.279
<v Speaker 3>was right, Well, you know, TPD on this term. You know,

528
00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:02.440
<v Speaker 3>some people love it, some hate it. It's vibe coding

529
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:05.720
<v Speaker 3>the other day and writing up I know, right, I

530
00:26:05.720 --> 00:26:11.000
<v Speaker 3>don't know if you've heard it's vibe coding thing or

531
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:14.319
<v Speaker 3>you know, I was just yollowing it.

532
00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Is vibe coding a pejorative to you.

533
00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:17.279
<v Speaker 3>I think it is to some people. I joke when

534
00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:21.599
<v Speaker 3>I chat with my team, I tell I'm just yellowing it, right, Yeah,

535
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:23.839
<v Speaker 3>I mean I still check the code sometimes. Every once

536
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:25.599
<v Speaker 3>in a while, I've done something just to see how

537
00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:27.119
<v Speaker 3>far it can go. And I've been like, I've set

538
00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:30.440
<v Speaker 3>up a condition where I'm not allowed to change the code.

539
00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:32.640
<v Speaker 3>If I were someone who didn't understand any of this

540
00:26:32.680 --> 00:26:34.119
<v Speaker 3>and I only had the prompt, what would I do?

541
00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:35.000
<v Speaker 2>Anyway?

542
00:26:35.079 --> 00:26:36.599
<v Speaker 3>I was, Yeah, I was working on this thing and

543
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:39.240
<v Speaker 3>it kept breaking, and I was like, okay, well i'll

544
00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:43.559
<v Speaker 3>i'll you know, relax that constrain. I'll go figure it out. Listen.

545
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:46.839
<v Speaker 3>I spent a couple hours like going through every forum

546
00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:50.079
<v Speaker 3>and googling everything I could, and finally I was like,

547
00:26:50.440 --> 00:26:53.440
<v Speaker 3>this is dumb. Please fix What does this error message mean?

548
00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:56.400
<v Speaker 3>Please fix it for me? And I think probably because

549
00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:58.119
<v Speaker 3>I've done this before, I will ask it first because

550
00:26:58.119 --> 00:27:02.079
<v Speaker 3>it like loads into context what it needs to know.

551
00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:04.559
<v Speaker 3>And then fris that Listen, that was fixed in thirty seconds,

552
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:08.720
<v Speaker 3>and it was it was an obscure configure error that

553
00:27:08.839 --> 00:27:11.400
<v Speaker 3>like I wouldn't have found for another couple hours. And

554
00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:13.359
<v Speaker 3>as a junior dev, those were the types of things

555
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:16.720
<v Speaker 3>that I hit, especially my first six months or a year.

556
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:18.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right, that were just showstoppers.

557
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:22.680
<v Speaker 3>And to understand this, yeah, it would take hours because

558
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:24.519
<v Speaker 3>I didn't want to ask someone or I would and

559
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:27.440
<v Speaker 3>then like and then I'm interrupting someone. I think this

560
00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:30.440
<v Speaker 3>is one of the great unlocks where junior developers are

561
00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:35.200
<v Speaker 3>going to be so productive. I'm super impactful, and honestly,

562
00:27:35.240 --> 00:27:38.799
<v Speaker 3>I was a professor for years, you know, Richard, Sometimes

563
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:41.279
<v Speaker 3>junior folks have the best ideas because they aren't they're

564
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:44.480
<v Speaker 3>not constrained, they're not hardened by all of the broken.

565
00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:46.079
<v Speaker 2>Deaths stuff that we've been doing.

566
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:50.000
<v Speaker 3>They don't have the scars, and so now they can

567
00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:55.400
<v Speaker 3>actually surface these ideas in like very visible productive ways.

568
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:57.119
<v Speaker 2>This is what I'm thinking, is that junior is going

569
00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:00.240
<v Speaker 2>to come up whose reflexes to prompt again, Yeah, that

570
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:05.000
<v Speaker 2>reflex we don't have yet. And things in those terms.

571
00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:07.400
<v Speaker 2>How do I deal with this from a prompt perspective

572
00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:11.000
<v Speaker 2>rather than our visceral reaction would be get under the hood.

573
00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:12.640
<v Speaker 2>Look at the code I've changed?

574
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:15.400
<v Speaker 3>Well, both and both right, because sometimes we need to

575
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:17.440
<v Speaker 3>tell it. You have to break down a problem a

576
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:17.920
<v Speaker 3>couple of times.

577
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:19.599
<v Speaker 2>So I think, just like you said, you need to

578
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:20.240
<v Speaker 2>subclass that.

579
00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:23.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well yeah, I think imprompts now all the time.

580
00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:27.599
<v Speaker 1>If I'm spending more than you know, thirty seconds scratching

581
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:31.119
<v Speaker 1>my head about something, it goes right into an agent

582
00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:34.359
<v Speaker 1>or a chat, GPT or something. Take a screenshot. What

583
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:36.720
<v Speaker 1>does this mean? If I don't know?

584
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:37.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know?

585
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:40.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well it's time to take a break. We'll be

586
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:43.920
<v Speaker 1>right back after these very very important messages don't go away.

587
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:49.119
<v Speaker 1>Did you know? You can easily migrate asp net web

588
00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:53.240
<v Speaker 1>apps to Windows containers on Aws. Use the app to

589
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:57.759
<v Speaker 1>container tool to containerize your IIS websites and deploy to

590
00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:03.319
<v Speaker 1>AWS Managed Container service is with or without Kubernetes. Find

591
00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:06.960
<v Speaker 1>out more about app to container at AWS dot Amazon

592
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:15.079
<v Speaker 1>dot Com, slash, dot net, slash modernize, and we're back.

593
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:17.640
<v Speaker 1>It's dot in a rocks. I'm Carl Franklin as Richard Campbell,

594
00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:22.039
<v Speaker 1>either and we are talking about AI with Nicole, and

595
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:25.680
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about DevOps in AI. We started on the

596
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:28.720
<v Speaker 1>DevOps thing got sidetracked into AI. But how does how

597
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:33.119
<v Speaker 1>do AI tools make their way into the DevOps architecture infrastructure?

598
00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:36.400
<v Speaker 3>I love this question right in part because I think

599
00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:38.400
<v Speaker 3>it's something we're still discovering, like we were kind of,

600
00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:41.880
<v Speaker 3>you know, chatting about, and also I think it's important

601
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.200
<v Speaker 3>because it's something that is not on everyone's radar right

602
00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:50.200
<v Speaker 3>right now, everyone is super excited about Copilot and you know,

603
00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:52.119
<v Speaker 3>all of these tools that you can use to write code.

604
00:29:52.359 --> 00:29:53.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is on.

605
00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:57.480
<v Speaker 3>The ninety and you know we all know this because

606
00:29:57.480 --> 00:29:59.960
<v Speaker 3>we're developers or you know, we're developers. In my case,

607
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:05.160
<v Speaker 3>there's a lot more to software engineering and building great

608
00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:09.279
<v Speaker 3>product and building great systems than just writing code. There's

609
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:14.359
<v Speaker 3>this review, there's pr there's integration, there's release, there's so

610
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:17.640
<v Speaker 3>many things, and so I think there's just a world

611
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:22.039
<v Speaker 3>of possibility for AI and AI agents to be able

612
00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:24.559
<v Speaker 3>to help out. Now that also comes with you know,

613
00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:27.880
<v Speaker 3>but wait, right, what do we think about hallucinations or

614
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:31.480
<v Speaker 3>correctness or all of these other things, which also introduces sorry,

615
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:33.240
<v Speaker 3>I'm gonna harp on this because I have heard too

616
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:36.680
<v Speaker 3>many people say that the junior dev is dead. We've

617
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:42.359
<v Speaker 3>now created and introduced entirely new skill sets, right, how

618
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:45.359
<v Speaker 3>do we validate this? What does testing look like across

619
00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:49.400
<v Speaker 3>all these different stages for non deterministic systems, you.

620
00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:54.720
<v Speaker 1>Almost have to test a junior developer's creativity and their imagination, because,

621
00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:58.079
<v Speaker 1>let's face it, that's what's holding the old guys back.

622
00:30:58.200 --> 00:30:59.839
<v Speaker 3>I woul gonna say, I think juniors are some of

623
00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:03.119
<v Speaker 3>the best equipped here because now seniors will have some

624
00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:07.920
<v Speaker 3>great experience in architectural design limitations and trade offs involved,

625
00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:13.799
<v Speaker 3>but also we're just so ingrained in the way things

626
00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:16.119
<v Speaker 3>work and the way things look and how to build

627
00:31:16.119 --> 00:31:18.640
<v Speaker 3>a thing and not okay, what if we flipped the

628
00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:20.759
<v Speaker 3>entire thing on its side differently exactly?

629
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:22.240
<v Speaker 2>Well, and then we're also at a time where nobody

630
00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:24.960
<v Speaker 2>has a decade of experience with all alabas. Right, that's right,

631
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:28.119
<v Speaker 2>we're all juniors effectively. Yeah, this is a question of

632
00:31:28.119 --> 00:31:30.319
<v Speaker 2>how much bag did you bring to the table. But

633
00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:33.759
<v Speaker 2>at the same time, you know, hopefully you've gone through

634
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:35.680
<v Speaker 2>a few iterations like this over the years, you have

635
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:39.559
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of sort of standards that you go by

636
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:42.880
<v Speaker 2>about quality and approaches to things so forth that are

637
00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:48.160
<v Speaker 2>beyond any given tool. Yeah, it helps me. I want

638
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:50.480
<v Speaker 2>to jump back onto the frictionalist side of things because

639
00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:53.240
<v Speaker 2>I think we've focused too many on the tools and

640
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:54.440
<v Speaker 2>not enough on the culture.

641
00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:58.000
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely right. So as we you know, Auby and I

642
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:02.599
<v Speaker 3>have been going through the book, there a not insignificant

643
00:32:02.839 --> 00:32:06.559
<v Speaker 3>part of the book that isn't about tools at all, frankly, right,

644
00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:11.839
<v Speaker 3>It's about understanding what devex is and why we need

645
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:15.240
<v Speaker 3>to remove friction and communicating that to others in the company.

646
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:17.839
<v Speaker 3>Whether that's you know, making the business case you can

647
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:21.480
<v Speaker 3>kick something off, or whether it's once you're starting to

648
00:32:21.559 --> 00:32:26.519
<v Speaker 3>deploy a technical solution or something. Right that frankly needs

649
00:32:26.680 --> 00:32:29.400
<v Speaker 3>a COMMS plan because internally we need to communicate to

650
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:32.480
<v Speaker 3>several audiences. We need to identifiers stakeholders. We need to

651
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:34.759
<v Speaker 3>tell developers why it's valuable and why they should use it.

652
00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:37.200
<v Speaker 3>We need to tell engineering managers why it's valuable and

653
00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:39.279
<v Speaker 3>why they should care about it. We need to be

654
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:44.759
<v Speaker 3>telling executives and leaders across various disciplines, you know, our

655
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:48.119
<v Speaker 3>CIOs and our CTOs, but also HR and finance why

656
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:50.519
<v Speaker 3>this is important what they should care about and all

657
00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:52.640
<v Speaker 3>of those messages are going to be different, and how

658
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:55.400
<v Speaker 3>do we remove blockers and barriers, and how do we

659
00:32:55.720 --> 00:33:00.880
<v Speaker 3>reduce whendn't they remove fear because a lot is changing, right,

660
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:03.319
<v Speaker 3>and so I think, you know, the cultural and the

661
00:33:03.319 --> 00:33:07.440
<v Speaker 3>people in the communication part is is huge. And also process, right,

662
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:08.759
<v Speaker 3>we say.

663
00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:10.799
<v Speaker 2>That's the old DEVO process tools.

664
00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:14.319
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, you know, yeah, exactly, well, and we were chatting

665
00:33:14.359 --> 00:33:16.599
<v Speaker 3>with some of our earliest you know, reviewers and interviewers,

666
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:20.079
<v Speaker 3>and you know, the point kept raising up that sometimes

667
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:23.680
<v Speaker 3>the best DEVX change you can make is to a process. Right,

668
00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:25.640
<v Speaker 3>Sometimes you can just clean up a process and it's

669
00:33:26.759 --> 00:33:32.240
<v Speaker 3>a huge significant impact across an entire organization. Tools weren't involved,

670
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:34.519
<v Speaker 3>or maybe like tools were minimally involved.

671
00:33:34.440 --> 00:33:36.119
<v Speaker 2>They weren't the deciding factor.

672
00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:36.799
<v Speaker 3>Yep, exactly.

673
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:37.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

674
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:40.759
<v Speaker 3>And then we also go through, you know, how to

675
00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:44.599
<v Speaker 3>collect early data, how to more rigortory collect data so

676
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:48.640
<v Speaker 3>that you can get good signal into what's happening to

677
00:33:48.759 --> 00:33:50.799
<v Speaker 3>make you know, decisions for maybe some of the obvious

678
00:33:50.839 --> 00:33:53.359
<v Speaker 3>problems and then communicate those across. But then also how

679
00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:58.000
<v Speaker 3>to prioritize and choose next projects as you continue on this.

680
00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:01.920
<v Speaker 2>Journey yeah, the feedback side. Yeah, exactly, the cycle. And

681
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:03.720
<v Speaker 2>I wonder if jenerative AI is going to pay more

682
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:05.880
<v Speaker 2>of a role in that, doing a better job of

683
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.800
<v Speaker 2>trying to pull the signal out of the noise of

684
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:13.559
<v Speaker 2>telemetry to let us to let us see people are

685
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:16.280
<v Speaker 2>struggling with the app this way, or you know, these

686
00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:18.840
<v Speaker 2>features aren't being utilized, Like all of that data is

687
00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:22.079
<v Speaker 2>in the telemetry, but it sometimes it's really hard to see.

688
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:22.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

689
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:26.199
<v Speaker 3>Well, and I will say frankly, there are a lot

690
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:28.440
<v Speaker 3>of times where the data doesn't exist, right, and so

691
00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:30.920
<v Speaker 3>I have Yeah, and so I think this, you know,

692
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:33.960
<v Speaker 3>this DEVS journey or the journey to improve developer experience

693
00:34:34.039 --> 00:34:37.480
<v Speaker 3>right includes both identifying friction points and improving them and

694
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:41.000
<v Speaker 3>also identifying where you have gaps in the data what

695
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:43.519
<v Speaker 3>you can do in the interim until you have something

696
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:46.519
<v Speaker 3>instrumenttic because by the way, don't start or don't wait

697
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:49.639
<v Speaker 3>to start until you've instrumented your entire stack, because that's

698
00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:54.159
<v Speaker 3>never happening. Part of it is not just using AI

699
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:58.320
<v Speaker 3>to kind of evaluate the telemetry, but it's also understanding

700
00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:01.039
<v Speaker 3>what data and what telemetry we need. Right, many times

701
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:02.840
<v Speaker 3>we have gaps in our data, and so it's part

702
00:35:03.159 --> 00:35:06.360
<v Speaker 3>improving tools and process and communicating and culture, and sometimes

703
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:11.800
<v Speaker 3>it's prioritizing investments in instrumenting systems. Right, so what does

704
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:14.280
<v Speaker 3>that look like? I will say one area that I

705
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:17.440
<v Speaker 3>think AI can make a huge impact it already is

706
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:18.960
<v Speaker 3>is you know what I just talked about. We need

707
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:21.679
<v Speaker 3>to communicate to different stakeholders. Right now, we can pull

708
00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:24.480
<v Speaker 3>together a bunch of data. I can have a very

709
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:26.800
<v Speaker 3>rough list of bullet points and findings, and I can say,

710
00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:29.079
<v Speaker 3>help me rewrite that.

711
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:31.039
<v Speaker 2>Can you tune this for the C suite?

712
00:35:31.079 --> 00:35:32.119
<v Speaker 3>Tune this for the C suite?

713
00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:32.360
<v Speaker 2>Right?

714
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:34.800
<v Speaker 3>Also, you know we know ask it politely. This is

715
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:36.559
<v Speaker 3>what I want you to do. Can you please help

716
00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:37.239
<v Speaker 3>me write it this way?

717
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:37.559
<v Speaker 1>Okay?

718
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:40.159
<v Speaker 3>Now write it for engineering managers? What am I missing

719
00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:42.360
<v Speaker 3>if I'm writing this for HR? Can you help me

720
00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:46.920
<v Speaker 3>generate a list of you know, starter questions for conversation

721
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:49.880
<v Speaker 3>in a workshop I'm going to run. That has gotten

722
00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:51.039
<v Speaker 3>so much faster.

723
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:53.559
<v Speaker 2>That's really interesting, you know, I love it. I did

724
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:56.119
<v Speaker 2>very well as a product manager going through the logs

725
00:35:56.119 --> 00:35:58.199
<v Speaker 2>and writing up a post factor report and a version

726
00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:00.760
<v Speaker 2>like two weeks after a going through to see if

727
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:02.920
<v Speaker 2>we worry about to tip over and when we weren't

728
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:04.599
<v Speaker 2>just saying, hey, here's how a bouch of new features

729
00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:06.119
<v Speaker 2>being used and things like that, Like it made a

730
00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:08.760
<v Speaker 2>lot of people happy. What it didn't have was time

731
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:11.480
<v Speaker 2>to write it for all of those audiences. Yep, that's

732
00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:14.559
<v Speaker 2>something in LLM is genuinely good, at at.

733
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:16.360
<v Speaker 3>Least for a first draft, right, because then you can

734
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:17.880
<v Speaker 3>go through and you can check a couple of things.

735
00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:19.719
<v Speaker 3>But I don't know about you. I am faster at

736
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:21.840
<v Speaker 3>editing than I am writing totally, and so if I

737
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:25.400
<v Speaker 3>can give it a bunch of information, a few cues on,

738
00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:28.119
<v Speaker 3>you know, this leader really cares about these one or

739
00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:31.719
<v Speaker 3>two things. How can we frame it this way? It

740
00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:34.880
<v Speaker 3>you know, I'll change a couple of sentences, I'll add

741
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:37.039
<v Speaker 3>a couple data points. But it's so much faster.

742
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:37.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

743
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:39.800
<v Speaker 1>Do you see there's a place in the DevOps tool

744
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:45.960
<v Speaker 1>stack for agents, for ani agents to actually you know,

745
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:53.199
<v Speaker 1>do things of their own volition with your various resources,

746
00:36:54.280 --> 00:37:01.000
<v Speaker 1>even if it's notifying you or sending communications to stakeholders

747
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:03.920
<v Speaker 1>or you know, do you see that there's a place

748
00:37:03.960 --> 00:37:04.920
<v Speaker 1>in the tool chain for that.

749
00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:08.199
<v Speaker 3>I think there will be a place. I think it's

750
00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:11.840
<v Speaker 3>still you know, so early and you know, a gentic

751
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:16.079
<v Speaker 3>development and use that. Like, we're still kind of seeing

752
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:18.840
<v Speaker 3>where to best deploy them, how to best use them.

753
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:21.199
<v Speaker 3>What does what does autonomous mean?

754
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:21.880
<v Speaker 1>Right?

755
00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:24.239
<v Speaker 2>How autonomous is autonomous exactly?

756
00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:28.559
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, you you develop a prompt for your

757
00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:32.800
<v Speaker 1>agent to say, you know, I'm not I don't even know.

758
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:35.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm just thinking. Well, so for example, you can tell

759
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.920
<v Speaker 1>it how to behave when a certain something arises, and

760
00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:39.440
<v Speaker 1>it does.

761
00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:41.840
<v Speaker 3>Sure, but as an example, and I'm just going to

762
00:37:41.960 --> 00:37:44.119
<v Speaker 3>use the reporting one because sure, I think it's one

763
00:37:44.119 --> 00:37:46.199
<v Speaker 3>that's going to be obvious to everyone. I can have

764
00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:47.679
<v Speaker 3>a whole bunch of data come in, I can have

765
00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:51.199
<v Speaker 3>it generate a draft of report for everyone. The reports

766
00:37:51.199 --> 00:37:54.559
<v Speaker 3>could be perfect. I personally would never have an agent

767
00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:59.000
<v Speaker 3>automatically send the executive report to the CEO on the board.

768
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:02.400
<v Speaker 3>That's not a risk right now.

769
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:04.679
<v Speaker 1>To some of our get up pull request model, right.

770
00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:06.920
<v Speaker 1>You know, it sends it to you. You can send

771
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:09.320
<v Speaker 1>it on after an edit or two or whatever.

772
00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:11.239
<v Speaker 3>But I also might have it go ahead and send

773
00:38:11.239 --> 00:38:14.000
<v Speaker 3>it automatically to all of the developers because they may

774
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:17.800
<v Speaker 3>be expecting it on a monthly or a quarterly cadence. Now,

775
00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:20.159
<v Speaker 3>executives might be expecting it on a six month cadence,

776
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:22.400
<v Speaker 3>but if I know they're in an off site or

777
00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:25.280
<v Speaker 3>something just blew up, I'm not sending it that day.

778
00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:27.239
<v Speaker 3>I will go ahead and wait forty eight hours, and

779
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:29.800
<v Speaker 3>I want it to come from me, right, I mean, yes,

780
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:31.679
<v Speaker 3>I know we can configure things so that it looks

781
00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:34.400
<v Speaker 3>like it comes from someone, but that's you know, I

782
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:36.840
<v Speaker 3>do think there are cases where we're going to start

783
00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:39.280
<v Speaker 3>feeling out what that looks like.

784
00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:41.639
<v Speaker 2>Right, I'm pretty comfortable idea that we're going to want

785
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:43.840
<v Speaker 2>entities for each of these bits and software. So it's

786
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:48.280
<v Speaker 2>very clear that this was generated by an LM's analysis,

787
00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:49.320
<v Speaker 2>and oh.

788
00:38:49.159 --> 00:38:54.079
<v Speaker 3>My gosh, yes, please. You know, there's also a big

789
00:38:54.119 --> 00:38:57.519
<v Speaker 3>open question around how do we evaluate and think about

790
00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:02.800
<v Speaker 3>the downstream outcomes of code, because if we think about it,

791
00:39:03.239 --> 00:39:07.719
<v Speaker 3>very few systems currently have let's say key logger level

792
00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:12.519
<v Speaker 3>tracking or per character tracking, and so you know, right now,

793
00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:14.559
<v Speaker 3>the question is often did you use AI or did

794
00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:20.000
<v Speaker 3>you not use AI? That is such a yeah exactly

795
00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:23.000
<v Speaker 3>grammar check or qualifying right, or like did I use

796
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:26.599
<v Speaker 3>AI and it like helped kickstart my brain and then

797
00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:30.519
<v Speaker 3>I deleted everything it suggested except for like some set

798
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:31.920
<v Speaker 3>up comment something.

799
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:34.199
<v Speaker 2>Right stimulated an I and you ran with the idea.

800
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:38.920
<v Speaker 3>But then like downstream, which portions of the code perform well,

801
00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:42.000
<v Speaker 3>Which portions of the code are more readable and so

802
00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:45.079
<v Speaker 3>they do well in code review, Which portions of the

803
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:49.440
<v Speaker 3>code are challenging in build or integration, Which portions of

804
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:55.000
<v Speaker 3>the code have long term viability and success in production?

805
00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:59.159
<v Speaker 3>And right now we just I'll say, we generally just

806
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:03.679
<v Speaker 3>don't have that level of granularity again, introduce new opportunities.

807
00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:07.800
<v Speaker 2>Memory for me of what code reviews well versus what

808
00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:10.800
<v Speaker 2>performs well, because I've done a lot of web performance

809
00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:14.360
<v Speaker 2>optimization over the years that always reviewed poorly because it's

810
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:17.119
<v Speaker 2>on obvious code and looking at it and going why

811
00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:19.719
<v Speaker 2>are you doing this? It's like because in a multi

812
00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:23.599
<v Speaker 2>re entry, high velocity environment, this code is safe even

813
00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:25.440
<v Speaker 2>though it's obtuse.

814
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:28.440
<v Speaker 3>Right exactly well? And then there's even i think really

815
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.840
<v Speaker 3>interesting open questions. Sorry, this is like researcher hat. We

816
00:40:31.960 --> 00:40:37.280
<v Speaker 3>know that many times reviewers will react differently to code

817
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:39.840
<v Speaker 3>written by different people. Sure it's a junior reviewer, it's

818
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:42.480
<v Speaker 3>someone on another team, it's someone who probably isn't familiar

819
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:44.360
<v Speaker 3>with your codebase, or you think is not familiar with

820
00:40:44.360 --> 00:40:47.400
<v Speaker 3>your code base. How are going to how are people

821
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:52.199
<v Speaker 3>going to react differently to code that is entirely written

822
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:55.360
<v Speaker 3>by AI? What conventions can we use so that it's

823
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:58.960
<v Speaker 3>more readable, so it's no more understandable, so it's more trustable?

824
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:01.360
<v Speaker 3>And in which case you know, like in your example,

825
00:41:01.639 --> 00:41:03.960
<v Speaker 3>does it just need to be hard to understand? But

826
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:06.119
<v Speaker 3>it's okay because we know that that's what's happening.

827
00:41:06.199 --> 00:41:08.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I used to write those comic blocks off.

828
00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:12.400
<v Speaker 2>This is this code look stupid to you. Don't touch it.

829
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:15.039
<v Speaker 2>It is a hard, one fought over piece of code

830
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:17.800
<v Speaker 2>for a very difficult problem. Yes, I wish it would

831
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:19.320
<v Speaker 2>be simpler, but it cannot be.

832
00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:22.320
<v Speaker 1>Just to get back to the term AI and what

833
00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:27.000
<v Speaker 1>does that mean? We go through these cycles where the

834
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:31.480
<v Speaker 1>public blombs onto words that they think means something and

835
00:41:31.480 --> 00:41:34.400
<v Speaker 1>that means something else. Like your clock radio now has

836
00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:35.599
<v Speaker 1>artificial intelligence.

837
00:41:35.960 --> 00:41:38.599
<v Speaker 3>Right, It's like, I mean, if you put that sticker

838
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:40.079
<v Speaker 3>on the box, it's going to sell the more money.

839
00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:44.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, of course, but I'm sorry clock radio, clock radio.

840
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:46.760
<v Speaker 1>Algorithm sort of thing, right, Yeah, oh that was an

841
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:47.920
<v Speaker 1>algorithm that did that.

842
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:48.679
<v Speaker 2>What does that mean?

843
00:41:49.559 --> 00:41:53.559
<v Speaker 1>Or let's go to the world of food. Enzymes is

844
00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:55.960
<v Speaker 1>a great one, and enzymes a protein, but it sounds

845
00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:59.159
<v Speaker 1>like it's doing something you know, enzyme. Well, there is

846
00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:03.360
<v Speaker 1>an enzymatic act. Okay, yeah, okay, but but you know, yeah,

847
00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:05.239
<v Speaker 1>people just throw these terms around.

848
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:06.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, I've certainly been big on the fact that our

849
00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:11.880
<v Speaker 2>official intelligence a term coined for raising money. It was

850
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:15.320
<v Speaker 2>a marketing strategy that then got hijacked by science fiction,

851
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:18.239
<v Speaker 2>and so of course everybody has a bad perception of it.

852
00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:22.880
<v Speaker 2>We've had sixty years of abusing that term.

853
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:26.519
<v Speaker 3>And it very legitimately means several different things.

854
00:42:26.599 --> 00:42:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

855
00:42:26.840 --> 00:42:30.559
<v Speaker 3>Sure, given the context, given the discipline, given the background,

856
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:34.519
<v Speaker 3>it's a blacking technology. They're all AI. And also depending

857
00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:36.840
<v Speaker 3>on what your assumption is, it's definitely not AI.

858
00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:38.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, I've always said if you still call it a

859
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:40.960
<v Speaker 2>dais because it doesn't work. As soon as it does work,

860
00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:45.119
<v Speaker 2>it gets a new name. It becomes image recognition or

861
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:48.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, sentiment analysis or large language model. But if

862
00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:50.880
<v Speaker 2>you only can call it AI, it's because you haven't

863
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:51.639
<v Speaker 2>figured it out yet.

864
00:42:52.039 --> 00:42:55.039
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think it's also Yeah, I mean sometimes it's

865
00:42:55.039 --> 00:42:58.320
<v Speaker 3>also the underlying technology, right, Like we've had AI for

866
00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:03.159
<v Speaker 3>years and it's one thing. Now, lllms use a different

867
00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:04.199
<v Speaker 3>type of math.

868
00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:07.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's always been that schism between the decision tree

869
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:11.159
<v Speaker 2>systems and the neural net systems, the neats and the scruppies. Yep,

870
00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:14.239
<v Speaker 2>going back to Minski terms, which is really old school,

871
00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:17.719
<v Speaker 2>so fun. Even when you actually are talking about the

872
00:43:17.719 --> 00:43:21.320
<v Speaker 2>technological side of this, there's been two totally different sets

873
00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:25.159
<v Speaker 2>of philosophies. Yeah, but then throw hal and Ultron on

874
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:28.400
<v Speaker 2>the top of that, and no wonder people are confused always. Yeah,

875
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:33.079
<v Speaker 2>I appreciate it though, but I also appreciate that we're thinking,

876
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:35.719
<v Speaker 2>in the terms with all of these technologies about the

877
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:40.079
<v Speaker 2>development experience could be better from this Not only could.

878
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:42.719
<v Speaker 3>Be, but I think it now. I've always said it

879
00:43:42.760 --> 00:43:46.480
<v Speaker 3>needs to be, But now with a lot of teams

880
00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:48.880
<v Speaker 3>and organizations that I talk to, we're really saying that

881
00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:51.880
<v Speaker 3>where a subpar I won't even say bad, a subpar

882
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:56.039
<v Speaker 3>developer experience, the wheels are falling off. Yeah, things are

883
00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:58.960
<v Speaker 3>just breaking because now we're trying to move so fast

884
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:01.079
<v Speaker 3>and generate so much, and so what does that mean

885
00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:03.280
<v Speaker 3>for everything downstream? We have to figure out how to

886
00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:04.639
<v Speaker 3>review it, we have to figure out how to test it,

887
00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:06.400
<v Speaker 3>We have to figure out how to do building integration.

888
00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:08.800
<v Speaker 3>We have to figure out how to release these huge

889
00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:14.760
<v Speaker 3>amounts of code in compressed timeframes. And so you know, Richard,

890
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:16.119
<v Speaker 3>you know we've been saying for a while that, you know,

891
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:18.320
<v Speaker 3>DevOps or whatever you want to call it, Yeah, is

892
00:44:18.599 --> 00:44:22.079
<v Speaker 3>table stakes. Oh listen, it's the bar is.

893
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:23.920
<v Speaker 2>There's a whole set of conversations you didn't get to

894
00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:26.000
<v Speaker 2>have if you haven't figured this part out yet.

895
00:44:26.599 --> 00:44:28.840
<v Speaker 3>And now for teams that have been organizations who have

896
00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:33.280
<v Speaker 3>been winging it well enough, they are no longer. Yeah,

897
00:44:33.320 --> 00:44:36.440
<v Speaker 3>we're going to see a lot of sprinting and burnout

898
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:42.079
<v Speaker 3>and or hopefully right improved systems that improve devs well.

899
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:45.360
<v Speaker 2>And recent convinced that software was eating the world. And

900
00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:47.760
<v Speaker 2>now you know your your companies are more and more

901
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:50.119
<v Speaker 2>dependent on it. If you haven't solved these problems, you're

902
00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:51.880
<v Speaker 2>not going to be able to build the software.

903
00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:52.559
<v Speaker 1>Or you will.

904
00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:56.840
<v Speaker 3>But now that things are moving so incredibly fast, you

905
00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:58.719
<v Speaker 3>won't be able to keep up, right. I mean, it's

906
00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:01.800
<v Speaker 3>always been a challenge of competitive advantage and who can

907
00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:04.360
<v Speaker 3>build faster, And before it was maybe a difference of

908
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:06.840
<v Speaker 3>like six months and nine months or one year and

909
00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:08.840
<v Speaker 3>one year and a half, which like isn't great but

910
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:12.239
<v Speaker 3>kind of fine. Well, now it's like weeks and if

911
00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:15.920
<v Speaker 3>you're pulling in at a year plus for you know,

912
00:45:16.199 --> 00:45:19.719
<v Speaker 3>a solid feature set or new product or something, and

913
00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:23.000
<v Speaker 3>all of your competitors and brand new competitors because the

914
00:45:23.079 --> 00:45:25.920
<v Speaker 3>industry is just yeah, it's like a bunch of weeds.

915
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:28.800
<v Speaker 3>Everyone's popping up everywhere. If they're coming out with something

916
00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:32.920
<v Speaker 3>in six to eight weeks with a really solid tech

917
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:34.039
<v Speaker 3>preview or beta.

918
00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:34.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, your toast.

919
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:38.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you have troubles. I remember they accelerate. You were

920
00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:40.760
<v Speaker 2>talking about the fact that version over a version you

921
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:43.280
<v Speaker 2>should be getting faster, but you found a lot of

922
00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:45.960
<v Speaker 2>organizations at version over version were actually getting slower. Like

923
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:49.239
<v Speaker 2>you get mired in the croft and can't ship.

924
00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:52.639
<v Speaker 3>The next version exactly, or you know sometimes the reflexes

925
00:45:53.519 --> 00:45:56.199
<v Speaker 3>we shipped and we had some outages. So now what

926
00:45:56.199 --> 00:45:57.800
<v Speaker 3>we're going to do is we're going to slow down

927
00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:00.360
<v Speaker 3>and we're going to do a more thorough review, which

928
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:04.039
<v Speaker 3>then means you have even more code to try to

929
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:07.320
<v Speaker 3>push and integrate into PROD, which you know now you've

930
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:09.960
<v Speaker 3>just had a huge blast radius. Yeah, so you have

931
00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:12.519
<v Speaker 3>more outages and then sometimes the reflex is then to

932
00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:16.119
<v Speaker 3>have a code freeze or wait longer and go even slower.

933
00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:20.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Those are anti patterns. Yeah, the opposite of limitless.

934
00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:21.119
<v Speaker 2>It's very limited.

935
00:46:21.400 --> 00:46:26.000
<v Speaker 3>Yes, and it's fairly predictable. We see it very very often. Now,

936
00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:29.239
<v Speaker 3>for any you know, haters who are listening, we are

937
00:46:29.239 --> 00:46:32.280
<v Speaker 3>not saying to just go as fast as possible, throw

938
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:35.199
<v Speaker 3>everything at the wall and run. No, that's also not good, right.

939
00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:38.960
<v Speaker 3>We're definitely saying that we need the automated processes and

940
00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:42.840
<v Speaker 3>tools in place to ensure that your code is safe, secure, reliable,

941
00:46:42.920 --> 00:46:48.880
<v Speaker 3>performance correct. But without those things, without the automation in particular, Yeah,

942
00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:49.760
<v Speaker 3>it's real tough.

943
00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:52.400
<v Speaker 2>But the automation can't come first. You're still in this

944
00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:54.480
<v Speaker 2>place of can we evaluate well enough to know this

945
00:46:54.519 --> 00:46:56.039
<v Speaker 2>is where the bottom lick is and then try and

946
00:46:56.079 --> 00:47:00.280
<v Speaker 2>solve the bottleneck exactly? Yeah, and that then maybe tool

947
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:02.719
<v Speaker 2>makes sense there, but only because you want to solve

948
00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:03.599
<v Speaker 2>the problem. Yeah.

949
00:47:03.639 --> 00:47:05.199
<v Speaker 3>And you know something I learned kind of early on

950
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:06.519
<v Speaker 3>in my career, or someone said this to me. I

951
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:10.039
<v Speaker 3>wish I remembered who. But we can't automate something until

952
00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:12.960
<v Speaker 3>we understand it. Sure, there really is value in doing

953
00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:17.559
<v Speaker 3>something manually. A handful of times. Yeah, so we understand

954
00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:18.840
<v Speaker 3>it and then we can automate it. Because if we

955
00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:20.840
<v Speaker 3>automate too fast, all we've done is sped up something

956
00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:22.800
<v Speaker 3>that is likely wrong or incomplete.

957
00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:23.880
<v Speaker 2>Right, But now it goes quickly.

958
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:25.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but now go exactly.

959
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:28.079
<v Speaker 2>You applified stupidity instead of intelligence. Now it's faster.

960
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:30.159
<v Speaker 3>Well it can congratulations.

961
00:47:30.199 --> 00:47:32.159
<v Speaker 1>It could have been too slow, but the fact that

962
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:35.800
<v Speaker 1>you're automating it, you won't notice that because hey, I'm

963
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:37.320
<v Speaker 1>not doing it, so it's faster.

964
00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:39.239
<v Speaker 2>Than me doing it. Yeah, doing dumb faster.

965
00:47:39.440 --> 00:47:42.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but the solution is not to continue doing it

966
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:43.280
<v Speaker 3>manually forever.

967
00:47:43.480 --> 00:47:45.920
<v Speaker 2>No, right, yeah, just because you do it dumb slow

968
00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:49.719
<v Speaker 2>doesn't mean it's better. Right. But this is the consulting effect. Right.

969
00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:52.519
<v Speaker 2>I never got hired to re engineer a business process.

970
00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:56.440
<v Speaker 2>I got hired to automate. And my process of scrutinizing

971
00:47:56.480 --> 00:48:00.440
<v Speaker 2>the workflow to make the automation re engineered the process.

972
00:48:01.239 --> 00:48:03.559
<v Speaker 2>Like the two kind of go together that you have

973
00:48:03.639 --> 00:48:06.360
<v Speaker 2>to you have to do what's acceptable to people as

974
00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:08.599
<v Speaker 2>well to say I'm here to you know, make things better,

975
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:11.840
<v Speaker 2>make things better, and automation is safe. They're comfortable with that.

976
00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:15.440
<v Speaker 2>But then in order to automate, you have to work

977
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:18.000
<v Speaker 2>through the manual process and understand it. And because you're

978
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:19.360
<v Speaker 2>the outside of you also get a point to go.

979
00:48:19.480 --> 00:48:23.000
<v Speaker 1>I mean you're like Colombo out to Oh yeah, you

980
00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:26.280
<v Speaker 1>get just one more question about this process.

981
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:27.800
<v Speaker 2>It's kind of inefficient.

982
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:29.519
<v Speaker 1>Do you mind if I just take a look at that?

983
00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:34.320
<v Speaker 2>It's a good Columbo, thank you, good Peter Fox there go.

984
00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:38.360
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, when do we scrutinize? I mean, it doesn't

985
00:48:38.360 --> 00:48:41.280
<v Speaker 2>have to be an external like I definitely seen folks

986
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:43.599
<v Speaker 2>who've embarked on that sort of DevOps mindset where they

987
00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:45.920
<v Speaker 2>just start talking to more people and they ask a

988
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:49.559
<v Speaker 2>lot of whys and often run into it's the way

989
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:52.480
<v Speaker 2>we've always done it right, So yeah, you know, we

990
00:48:52.599 --> 00:48:56.000
<v Speaker 2>believe that that was necessary.

991
00:48:54.119 --> 00:48:57.360
<v Speaker 3>Ye change, and we're seeing a lot of that now. Yeah,

992
00:48:57.400 --> 00:49:01.639
<v Speaker 3>because everything's changing and we need to rethink or at

993
00:49:01.719 --> 00:49:05.079
<v Speaker 3>least revisit how our systems are working.

994
00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:07.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you think we would do that routinely, but we

995
00:49:07.159 --> 00:49:09.880
<v Speaker 2>don't because there's so many other things to do. Anyway,

996
00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:12.039
<v Speaker 2>that idea of just taking the step back and looking

997
00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:14.480
<v Speaker 2>through the processes again and say is this the right process?

998
00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:19.159
<v Speaker 3>Well, and it's really hard to articulate the importance or

999
00:49:19.159 --> 00:49:22.159
<v Speaker 3>the value of cleaning up systems and clearing up tech dead.

1000
00:49:22.239 --> 00:49:24.599
<v Speaker 2>Sure, it's better if you.

1001
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:27.960
<v Speaker 3>Can talk about and tie it to outcomes. You know,

1002
00:49:28.599 --> 00:49:31.199
<v Speaker 3>we need to make sure that we can improve the

1003
00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:34.480
<v Speaker 3>consistency and the predictability and the reliability of the software,

1004
00:49:35.079 --> 00:49:39.880
<v Speaker 3>and so we yeah, we carve out a portion of

1005
00:49:39.880 --> 00:49:43.440
<v Speaker 3>our time to ensure that is happening right and over

1006
00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:46.679
<v Speaker 3>the past period of end months and years, we can

1007
00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:49.840
<v Speaker 3>show that these investments are paying off. And the times

1008
00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:52.119
<v Speaker 3>when we haven't because of whatever reason, you know, a

1009
00:49:52.199 --> 00:49:55.760
<v Speaker 3>race to push something, we tend to see these you know,

1010
00:49:56.400 --> 00:50:00.360
<v Speaker 3>negative outcomes. So like that can help, but it's it's

1011
00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:05.599
<v Speaker 3>tough to try to explain or you know, calculate an

1012
00:50:05.679 --> 00:50:06.480
<v Speaker 3>ROI for tech debt.

1013
00:50:06.519 --> 00:50:08.440
<v Speaker 2>That's not no, I mean I think a lot of

1014
00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:10.159
<v Speaker 2>us just included it as like a ten percent rate

1015
00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:13.159
<v Speaker 2>or something like that. You do want to knock it down, Oh, absolutely.

1016
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:16.039
<v Speaker 2>Argument has always been if we don't do this eventually,

1017
00:50:16.039 --> 00:50:16.960
<v Speaker 2>we can't shift anything.

1018
00:50:17.320 --> 00:50:17.679
<v Speaker 3>Exactly.

1019
00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:19.960
<v Speaker 2>We have to do an all tech at all tech

1020
00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:22.920
<v Speaker 2>debt sprints are multiple where if we just stay on

1021
00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:25.000
<v Speaker 2>top of it so that we're diminishing it, there's less

1022
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:28.039
<v Speaker 2>of it than there was the next time. We're better off.

1023
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:32.719
<v Speaker 3>Now keeping that you know goal of ten percent is

1024
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:35.639
<v Speaker 3>or so it's great. It's really challenging when I chat

1025
00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:40.119
<v Speaker 3>with teams who they're booked up, their capacities one hundred percent,

1026
00:50:40.159 --> 00:50:44.039
<v Speaker 3>they're fully utilized, and then things start breaking. Yeah, and

1027
00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:47.599
<v Speaker 3>it's because and it's not that the developers ever, you know,

1028
00:50:48.039 --> 00:50:49.920
<v Speaker 3>don't want I mean, tech det isn't super fun, but

1029
00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:52.320
<v Speaker 3>they understand, you know, when codebase is it. When it's

1030
00:50:52.360 --> 00:50:55.800
<v Speaker 3>really hard to make a change, that's not fun, right,

1031
00:50:56.119 --> 00:51:00.920
<v Speaker 3>But it's hard to explain why the way a finger quilt, right,

1032
00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:03.599
<v Speaker 3>the way we've been working for the last and years

1033
00:51:04.159 --> 00:51:06.719
<v Speaker 3>isn't going to work anymore because we were basically sprinting

1034
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:09.760
<v Speaker 3>and now we have to do things to harden our

1035
00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:12.880
<v Speaker 3>systems or make them more scalable or more reliable or

1036
00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:14.880
<v Speaker 3>easier to change and understand.

1037
00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:18.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a different cycle, yep. The difference between getting

1038
00:51:18.679 --> 00:51:21.679
<v Speaker 2>that initial version of the door improving initial value exactly

1039
00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:22.840
<v Speaker 2>what is sustainable value?

1040
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:25.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And you know, I'm going to pull us back

1041
00:51:25.480 --> 00:51:28.880
<v Speaker 3>to that AI thing. I think this is also where

1042
00:51:29.679 --> 00:51:31.599
<v Speaker 3>we're going to have some big questions come up because

1043
00:51:32.239 --> 00:51:34.400
<v Speaker 3>you know your point when it's just about getting the

1044
00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:37.079
<v Speaker 3>next version out of the door. Okay, right now, some

1045
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:42.119
<v Speaker 3>companies are releasing new products or new significant features every month, right,

1046
00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:47.199
<v Speaker 3>So how can we be thinking about code hygiene and

1047
00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:52.400
<v Speaker 3>system automation and hygiene and improvement when we are constantly

1048
00:51:52.440 --> 00:51:53.239
<v Speaker 3>moving this fast?

1049
00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:56.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, Well, and I would always look at the

1050
00:51:56.159 --> 00:51:58.920
<v Speaker 2>delta trajectories there it's like, are we still able to

1051
00:51:58.920 --> 00:52:00.960
<v Speaker 2>move every month? Or we shipping a little less each month?

1052
00:52:01.079 --> 00:52:04.440
<v Speaker 2>Like are we decaying or are we strengthening? Yeah? I

1053
00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:06.360
<v Speaker 2>picked that number ten percent a little bit arbitrary. Like

1054
00:52:06.519 --> 00:52:08.880
<v Speaker 2>what I'm really looking for is the total amount of

1055
00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:13.079
<v Speaker 2>tech debt less this sprint than last print. So if

1056
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:15.199
<v Speaker 2>we're accumulating more from the new things we're shipping, we

1057
00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:18.239
<v Speaker 2>actually have to fix more too, yeap. Otherwise we're just

1058
00:52:18.280 --> 00:52:19.320
<v Speaker 2>delaying the inevitable.

1059
00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:22.199
<v Speaker 3>Now, I love that you pointed that out right, if

1060
00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:25.440
<v Speaker 3>we look at the things we're accumulating from shipping. One

1061
00:52:25.519 --> 00:52:29.519
<v Speaker 3>reason I'm super excited about how quickly we can develop

1062
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:31.519
<v Speaker 3>things now is we can do a lot of experiments.

1063
00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:34.639
<v Speaker 3>So hopefully we are not in a world where every

1064
00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:36.519
<v Speaker 3>single thing we build gets shipped.

1065
00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:40.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, hopefully it should be way more comfortable thrown away

1066
00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:40.400
<v Speaker 2>code to it.

1067
00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:42.840
<v Speaker 3>At least fifty percent of the things that we try

1068
00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:46.400
<v Speaker 3>sure should fail, and it should be done so quickly

1069
00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:51.519
<v Speaker 3>that like the business doesn't really it's just almost consequence exactly. Yeah,

1070
00:52:51.559 --> 00:52:54.639
<v Speaker 3>because you know, definitely to your point, code that doesn't

1071
00:52:54.679 --> 00:52:56.280
<v Speaker 3>do much at least it doesn't hurt the system.

1072
00:52:56.480 --> 00:52:57.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh you have.

1073
00:52:57.079 --> 00:52:57.840
<v Speaker 3>Added to tech debt.

1074
00:52:57.880 --> 00:53:00.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, you've loaded down. But I now feel like

1075
00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:03.920
<v Speaker 2>we're going to make more branches to do experimental coding

1076
00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:07.400
<v Speaker 2>these new tools and then make an assessment and go, okay,

1077
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:10.880
<v Speaker 2>we've made a learning Now dump the branch. Let's try

1078
00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:13.320
<v Speaker 2>again with what we've now learned to see what we're

1079
00:53:13.320 --> 00:53:15.840
<v Speaker 2>going to make from the end YEP, and in relatively

1080
00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:17.840
<v Speaker 2>short periods of time we could spit a lot more

1081
00:53:17.880 --> 00:53:20.440
<v Speaker 2>code out. Now. The real question is isn't good yeah?

1082
00:53:20.920 --> 00:53:23.599
<v Speaker 3>Or you know, even if it's not the best design code,

1083
00:53:23.679 --> 00:53:25.960
<v Speaker 3>is that the functionality is that, the user flow is

1084
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:26.400
<v Speaker 3>that the.

1085
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:28.800
<v Speaker 2>Did we get it into thing that we want some

1086
00:53:28.880 --> 00:53:30.280
<v Speaker 2>kind of value? I appreciate that.

1087
00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:34.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm just looking forward to things that I was

1088
00:53:34.840 --> 00:53:40.119
<v Speaker 1>never looking forward to. Right, merge conflicts, I think those

1089
00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:43.840
<v Speaker 1>will get easier to deal with having you know, an

1090
00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:48.320
<v Speaker 1>AI in visual studio for example. You know, just some

1091
00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:51.000
<v Speaker 1>of those things that that are cringe worthy, like oh,

1092
00:53:51.039 --> 00:53:52.719
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but

1093
00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:55.559
<v Speaker 1>then you know, what do you got to lose? It's

1094
00:53:55.599 --> 00:53:57.119
<v Speaker 1>all about the prompt baby. Oh.

1095
00:53:57.199 --> 00:54:00.719
<v Speaker 3>I'll say, in some ways, I think technically get easier,

1096
00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:06.320
<v Speaker 3>but I think personally it will be challenging because right

1097
00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:09.480
<v Speaker 3>now merch conflicts is a person making. Now many times

1098
00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:15.239
<v Speaker 3>the system suggests the right answer. But what happens when

1099
00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:19.679
<v Speaker 3>we have many, many more merch conflicts to evaluate? And

1100
00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:22.000
<v Speaker 3>now you know the things I was talking about before?

1101
00:54:22.360 --> 00:54:25.440
<v Speaker 3>Did it come from an agent? Did it come from

1102
00:54:25.480 --> 00:54:25.920
<v Speaker 3>a person?

1103
00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:31.000
<v Speaker 2>I know you have that issue list clicking fire to copilot,

1104
00:54:31.079 --> 00:54:33.079
<v Speaker 2>which one of them spins up a branch to build

1105
00:54:33.079 --> 00:54:35.519
<v Speaker 2>that thing and sends you a pr and ten of

1106
00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:38.559
<v Speaker 2>them come to roost. I hope you get some time. Yeah.

1107
00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:41.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Now, I will say I keep identifying like open

1108
00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:45.679
<v Speaker 3>questions and hard problems. I hope people who maybe are

1109
00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:47.599
<v Speaker 3>less familiar with me and my work means that this

1110
00:54:47.760 --> 00:54:50.519
<v Speaker 3>is a lot of excitement. There are a lot of

1111
00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:52.519
<v Speaker 3>really cool things to figure out, and there are a

1112
00:54:52.519 --> 00:54:55.840
<v Speaker 3>lot of cool things that don't have established best practice.

1113
00:54:55.880 --> 00:54:58.480
<v Speaker 3>So for anyone who's in the field now, whether you're

1114
00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:01.159
<v Speaker 3>junior or a senior, there is so much to do.

1115
00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:04.280
<v Speaker 3>You're so much to do, and AI can't fix that,

1116
00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:06.559
<v Speaker 3>and they can't solve it because it's pretty good at

1117
00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:08.880
<v Speaker 3>responding to a prompt, it's not creative.

1118
00:55:09.400 --> 00:55:12.239
<v Speaker 1>But also these sort of meta prompts. You know, here's

1119
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:14.360
<v Speaker 1>a big problem I want to solve. What are the steps?

1120
00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:16.400
<v Speaker 1>You don't have to do them for me, but what

1121
00:55:16.440 --> 00:55:19.039
<v Speaker 1>are the steps I need to go through in order

1122
00:55:19.079 --> 00:55:22.920
<v Speaker 1>to achieve this goal? You know, organizing your thoughts and

1123
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:26.719
<v Speaker 1>breaking big problems down into smaller problems. It's really good

1124
00:55:26.719 --> 00:55:28.199
<v Speaker 1>for that. Oh, it's so good.

1125
00:55:28.320 --> 00:55:28.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1126
00:55:28.800 --> 00:55:31.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And whether you use it all the way through,

1127
00:55:32.119 --> 00:55:36.519
<v Speaker 1>that's another thing. But at least getting started, things that

1128
00:55:36.599 --> 00:55:43.440
<v Speaker 1>seem insurmountable can be made easier. So what's next for you?

1129
00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:44.159
<v Speaker 1>What's in your inbod?

1130
00:55:44.199 --> 00:55:45.360
<v Speaker 2>When are we going to see this book?

1131
00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:46.440
<v Speaker 3>End of year?

1132
00:55:46.519 --> 00:55:48.920
<v Speaker 2>Hopefully? So right now I already came out.

1133
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:54.239
<v Speaker 3>We're working on it, So continuing to work on the book,

1134
00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:58.960
<v Speaker 3>doing some really exciting work at Microsoft around AI and

1135
00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:01.199
<v Speaker 3>systems and how we can improve and you know, what

1136
00:56:01.239 --> 00:56:04.719
<v Speaker 3>that looks like. I still occasionally find some time to

1137
00:56:04.719 --> 00:56:07.440
<v Speaker 3>talk to folks across industry and I love to learn,

1138
00:56:08.320 --> 00:56:11.760
<v Speaker 3>you know, from them and their experiences. So yeah, still,

1139
00:56:11.880 --> 00:56:13.679
<v Speaker 3>you know, it feels like the earliest deep off days,

1140
00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:16.559
<v Speaker 3>where like we're kind of identifying and finding patterns and

1141
00:56:16.599 --> 00:56:21.000
<v Speaker 3>sharing best practices and you know, connecting dots and connecting teams.

1142
00:56:21.039 --> 00:56:22.320
<v Speaker 3>So it's super fun.

1143
00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:25.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's alazing times. So good to talk to you again,

1144
00:56:25.400 --> 00:56:26.480
<v Speaker 2>and Bill, thanks, good to talk to you.

1145
00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:27.239
<v Speaker 3>Thanks for having me.

1146
00:56:27.320 --> 00:56:29.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thanks for coming back, and we'll talk to you

1147
00:56:29.960 --> 00:56:54.360
<v Speaker 1>next time on dot net rocks. Dot net Rocks is

1148
00:56:54.360 --> 00:56:58.079
<v Speaker 1>brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios,

1149
00:56:58.440 --> 00:57:02.480
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1150
00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:05.440
<v Speaker 1>physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the

1151
00:57:05.480 --> 00:57:10.559
<v Speaker 1>cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at

1152
00:57:10.599 --> 00:57:12.480
<v Speaker 1>d O T N E t R O c k

1153
00:57:12.719 --> 00:57:17.519
<v Speaker 1>S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments,

1154
00:57:17.840 --> 00:57:20.360
<v Speaker 1>and access to the full archives going back to show

1155
00:57:20.440 --> 00:57:24.159
<v Speaker 1>number one, recorded in September two thousand and two. And

1156
00:57:24.280 --> 00:57:26.679
<v Speaker 1>make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us

1157
00:57:26.679 --> 00:57:29.960
<v Speaker 1>in business. Now go write some code. See you next

1158
00:57:29.960 --> 00:57:32.920
<v Speaker 1>time you got jack middle vans

1159
00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:35.000
<v Speaker 3>And