WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:03.680 Welcome to the Trauma Therapists podcast. My name is Gaming Person. 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.879 I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping 3 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:11.000 those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you 4 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:14.439 to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show. 5 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:19.800 The five four and one, our folks, welcome back to 6 00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:22.600 the podcast. I'm very excited to have us my guest today. 7 00:00:22.679 --> 00:00:25.000 Ama Tanasanti, Ama welcome. 8 00:00:25.480 --> 00:00:27.359 Thank you so much. I appreciate being here. 9 00:00:27.480 --> 00:00:31.920 Yeah, you are welcome. Excuse me. I'm a first encounter 10 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:34.280 of the dharma in nineteen seventy nine and was a 11 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:37.399 Buddhist nun for twenty six years in the ajan Chah 12 00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:42.600 forest tradition. She's been teaching intensive meditation retreats internationally since 13 00:00:42.679 --> 00:00:45.600 nineteen ninety five, combining the precision and rigor of the 14 00:00:45.640 --> 00:00:51.079 forest tradition with compassion, pure awareness practices, and passion for wholeness. 15 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:55.799 Her teaching emphasize is deep listening, authenticity, inquiry, and presence 16 00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:59.600 while supporting people from diverse communities and cultivating belonging and 17 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:05.239 connect through awakening truth. Alma integrates meditation with trauma informed approaches, 18 00:01:05.799 --> 00:01:09.040 encouraging people to pause to inquire into the present moment 19 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:13.120 and falls to personal growth and healing. All right, i'ma 20 00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:14.840 just a little bit about you before we get going, 21 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:17.840 and share with our listeners where you're from originally and 22 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:18.879 where you are currently. 23 00:01:20.359 --> 00:01:23.480 I was born in southern California in Los Angeles and 24 00:01:23.719 --> 00:01:27.120 escaped as soon as I was old enough, and right 25 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:32.120 now I'm living in where I am speaking from, Ajihik, Mexico. 26 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:40.359 Okay, So how does this start? How does all this 27 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:41.000 start for you? 28 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:47.319 Well? Good question. I think my introduction to the DAMA 29 00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:50.040 started in nineteen seventy nine when I wandered into a 30 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:54.400 class on religions of India taught at the University of 31 00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:57.719 California at Santa Cruz by a remarkable human being by 32 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:01.439 the name of Jack Angler. And Jack was a visiting 33 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:07.120 lecturer and had been a practitioner himself and was both 34 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:11.039 a clinical psychologist as well as somebody who was deeply 35 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:14.439 involved in the DAMMA. And so from the very beginning 36 00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:17.879 I had a real passion for the DAMA, and my 37 00:02:18.039 --> 00:02:23.199 love and respect for Jack really instilled in me a 38 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:27.879 quality of like what's possible when a person is integrating 39 00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:32.960 both classical DUMA and psychological depth. 40 00:02:33.479 --> 00:02:35.400 To find the dama for our listeners. 41 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:39.960 Thank you. You know, I come steeped in the Buddhist world, 42 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:43.159 and so I forget that not everybody on the old 43 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:47.039 planet knows what the dumba is. The dumma on in 44 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:51.680 a broadway, means the truth and in a universal way, 45 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:55.199 it's just the laws of nature. In a Buddhist perspective, 46 00:02:55.520 --> 00:03:00.280 it's the teachings of the Buddha, his what he spoke about. 47 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:06.039 It's the teachings that we can practice. And so the 48 00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:09.759 Dama has many different levels to it, meanings to it. 49 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:13.919 So you're sitting in this class by this visiting lecture 50 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:22.199 and something ignite in you totally. But what specifically was it? 51 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:28.360 So what was it? It was the possibility of being free, 52 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:31.840 and the freedom had different dimensions to it. First of all, 53 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:33.879 what I was hearing made sense in a way that 54 00:03:33.960 --> 00:03:36.039 I had never heard of. Framework made sense in that 55 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:39.000 kind of way before. So it had a framework that 56 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:42.599 explained why suffering is, how we can move through it, 57 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:46.080 and that there are choices that you can make that 58 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:50.439 can actually take you out of suffering and practices that 59 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:53.759 you can do to support that. So there was a 60 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:58.280 framework of teachings that made sense. That made me feel 61 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:02.159 excited that there was possibility that I didn't know about before. 62 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:06.919 But what was more exciting even than that was his presence. 63 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:13.759 So Jack Engler is an exceptionally articulate man who had 64 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:18.720 practiced as a meditation practitioner for a long time and 65 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:22.959 had understood from his heart what some of these teachings meant. 66 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:29.839 So in addition to having precision and exquisite clarity, he 67 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:36.240 had a heart that was deeply attuned and compassionate. And 68 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:38.920 so I would ask questions. We would all ask questions, 69 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:42.800 and he would respond to the human being underneath the question. 70 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:47.000 And it was like, even if the theory didn't make sense, 71 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:48.720 like I wanted to be like. 72 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:51.639 That, you know, Okay, you got to hang on. So 73 00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:54.600 give me an example. Break that down. What do you 74 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:56.360 mean by I know what you mean? But what does 75 00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:59.720 that feel like? What was specifically? What are we hearing here? 76 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:04.399 Okay? So I'm seventeen. I had a million questions. Some 77 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:06.879 of my questions was like, how does this relate to 78 00:05:06.920 --> 00:05:10.199 my stepmother? Like, you know, that's a really tough relationship. 79 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:13.000 How do I translate that into something that makes sense 80 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:16.879 to way I relate with her? So I asked him 81 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:19.639 to ask if I could ask my questions, and so 82 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:21.680 he was busy and I was busy, and the only 83 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:24.360 time he had available to me was at ten o'clock 84 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:26.480 at night. So I walked over to where he was 85 00:05:26.519 --> 00:05:31.600 living at ten o'clock at night. Two hours later, I 86 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:36.399 left and he said, anytime you have more questions, come again. 87 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:41.560 So it was his availability, it was his support, it 88 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:45.800 was his encouragement, it was his presence, it was his 89 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:51.279 untangling the human realm in terms of how do you 90 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:57.240 apply these teachings in different, specific, challenging relationships. And it 91 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:00.480 was his very loving, generous presence with me all of 92 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:05.120 those things. It was like, I don't know what all 93 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:10.480 these teachings mean as direct experience, but that that that 94 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:13.519 I can say yes to, like one hundred percent, Like 95 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:15.399 I want to be like that. I want to be 96 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:19.920 somebody who is available and attuned and respond to human 97 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:21.519 beings on that kind of a level. 98 00:06:22.759 --> 00:06:31.160 It's incredible when you we encounter that, when we meet that, 99 00:06:31.160 --> 00:06:34.959 that that authenticity, that presence you feel it. 100 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:38.720 Yeah, it's it's a bullshit free zone for sure. Like 101 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:41.800 there's there's you can't fake that. 102 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:45.480 You know, you can't fake that, so how do things 103 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:46.680 unfold for you after that? 104 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:51.160 So that within a month of being in that class, 105 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:53.040 I had a vision of being a nun. And nine 106 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:56.879 years later I ended up going to the monastery that 107 00:06:56.959 --> 00:07:00.720 I heard about and asking if I could join in community, 108 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:05.680 and I was welcomed and I stayed for twenty years. 109 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:10.319 And the tradition is a remarkable tradition in terms of 110 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:15.439 its capacity to bring forward teachings and practices that really 111 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:20.199 help clarify where we get tangled up, the choices that 112 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:24.040 we can make, and how we can learn to cultivate 113 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:29.319 our attention so that when we're experiencing something that's difficult, 114 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:32.800 we don't have to absorb into the difficulty. We can 115 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:37.160 move back and forth between the direct experience and the 116 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:42.160 knowing of that experience, And in that knowing there's quite 117 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:45.040 a lot of space, quite a lot of ease, and 118 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:47.959 quite a lot of freedom because the knowing doesn't have 119 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:52.360 a tangle in it, even if what we're experiencing is difficult. 120 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:55.560 I want to back up just a little bit, because 121 00:07:55.560 --> 00:08:00.800 you jumped, like twenty years you said, when I asked 122 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:03.759 you how things unfolded, you said, well, nine years later 123 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:08.519 you joined you became a nun. How did you decide 124 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:11.519 to become a nun? I mean, that's such a huge decision. 125 00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:17.040 Not You're not like just a I'm going to study this, 126 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:20.360 or I'm going to do my dissertation on this, or 127 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:22.759 maybe I'm going to take a you go to group 128 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:27.000 every week? No, how do you get to that point? 129 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:31.000 So in my situation, after being a week in that class, 130 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:34.639 I had unmistakable clarity that spiritual life was going to 131 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:38.120 be the center part of my world. And within a 132 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:40.440 month I had a vision of being a nun. And 133 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:43.519 for every year I went on ten day retreats, and 134 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:45.360 I had a daily practice, and I went on a 135 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:49.080 three month retreat Wow. And then I went to Southeast 136 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:52.200 Asia in order to meet some of the meditation masters 137 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:55.639 that i'd heard about in the class with Jack. And 138 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:01.759 on the way there or I was there, I was 139 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:09.519 attacked by a bear. And the experience was life changing, 140 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:14.639 partly because I lived, and partly because when I came 141 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:17.639 through that, like, one of the things that just became 142 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:22.120 really clear to me, was it in my mind? Obviously 143 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:23.759 I have no idea what was going on in the 144 00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:29.399 bear's mind, but in my mind, the one thing that 145 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:32.559 I could point to that made it possible for what 146 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:35.919 happened on my side was because of the meditation practice 147 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:39.080 that I had done. So even though I went to 148 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:42.519 Asia with a very clear intention to explore whether it 149 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:46.080 becoming a monastic was the right choice for me, this 150 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:48.759 was a kick in the butt. And part of the 151 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:52.759 reason why was because it was incredible that I survived it, 152 00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:57.600 but I did survive it, and having survived it, there 153 00:09:57.720 --> 00:10:02.919 was like before bear and after bear, and after Bear, 154 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:09.679 there was no mistake that the only reason why I 155 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:13.320 was alive was because of the meditation practice and training 156 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:18.519 that I had done up until that point. So I 157 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:21.840 was filled with faith. And when I went to a 158 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:25.519 forest monastery in Thailand and saw the power of the 159 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:30.759 practice and had faith in what the Buddha said, which 160 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:35.039 was that if you're really sincere and genuine about cultivating 161 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:38.919 a life of freedom, monastic life is a really powerful 162 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:39.679 way of doing that. 163 00:10:42.039 --> 00:10:45.879 What does it mean to be a monastic, as you said, 164 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:48.960 to become a nun, what does that mean? 165 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:54.080 So in the tradition that I was ordained into, it 166 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:58.320 means there's different levels of ordination, different levels of precepts. 167 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:04.720 As an eight precepts As an Anagerica, we keep eight precepts. 168 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:09.159 We don't eat food after noon, we shave our head, 169 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:14.200 and we wear white robes. As a Ceilidurra, we had 170 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:18.879 officially ten precepts, but we were keeping more observances that 171 00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:21.080 ended up being more like one hundred and thirty two. 172 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:24.720 We didn't handle money, we didn't cook, we didn't drive, 173 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:31.720 we didn't have a bank account, we didn't have We 174 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:35.759 wore only robes. And so our life was a life 175 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:38.559 of simplicity, of renunciation of service. 176 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:42.000 And this was in Southeast Asia. 177 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:43.519 No, it was in England. 178 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:48.360 This was in England. And you did that for how long? 179 00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:52.759 I was a nun in the monastery there and then 180 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:55.519 I left and I was an independent monastic for twenty 181 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:57.440 six years. 182 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:03.639 And did you hold down a quote unquote normal job. 183 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:11.799 No. So as a monastic, we are our life is 184 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:14.120 to live the dama with the precepts that we have, 185 00:12:14.519 --> 00:12:19.200 to practice meditation and to be in service. And the 186 00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:24.720 monastery is supporting us with basics of food and shelter 187 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:33.919 and medicine and clothing robes, and so we are part 188 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:36.919 of the community and the community supports us in those ways. 189 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.440 So the normal job thing is not part of the picture. 190 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:46.159 So I mean, obviously now you're things have shifted for you. 191 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:49.799 Yes, I'm no longer a monastic. I returned to life 192 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:51.120 in twenty seventeen. 193 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:56.840 I do what what what precipitated that change, that shift? 194 00:12:57.159 --> 00:13:01.000 So you know, when I ordained, partly because of the 195 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:06.639 circumstances right before, I was rather motivated, and so the 196 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:09.480 conviction that I had when I went into monastic life 197 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:12.120 was to stay until I knew with conviction that it 198 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:15.600 no longer served me. And so I had had doubt 199 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:18.639 because they were challenging things that we were navigating. But 200 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:22.960 doubt is not the same as conviction, and so I 201 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:27.120 stayed until I knew with conviction that living the life 202 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:31.759 of a monastic was no longer in my best interest. 203 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:35.000 And I came to that conclusion when I realized that 204 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:39.759 my aspiration for awakening was on parallel with my aspiration 205 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:46.320 for wholeness, and that I didn't feel monastic life was 206 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:51.360 able to support me in my aspiration for wholeness to 207 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:55.480 the degree that I felt I needed to explore and 208 00:13:55.559 --> 00:14:06.480 realize that. So you leave, So I left the Yes, 209 00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:09.960 I left. Firstly, I left the Ajuancha tradition of formal 210 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:13.080 affiliations with the Auguanchat tradition, and I lived as an 211 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:16.039 independent monastic, and then I had a Bukunia ordination, a 212 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:20.960 higher ordination, and I remained for until twenty seventeen, and 213 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:25.840 then I returned to civilian life. 214 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:34.759 How do you integrate, how do you make that transition? 215 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:42.679 Well, that's a really beautiful question. And initially I was 216 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:47.639 really excited and also like bemused, because I was in 217 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:50.440 my fifties and all of a sudden, I was dealing 218 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:53.440 with things that most people figure out when they're a teenager, 219 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:57.159 you know, opening a bank account, getting a driver's license, 220 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:01.039 figuring out what color you want to wear, what your 221 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:04.039 style is, what your name is, like, all of these 222 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:09.000 basic basic things I was trying to sort out in 223 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:12.519 my fifties. Because I'd spent so many years living as 224 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:16.200 a nun, I didn't know the answer, you know. So 225 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:19.519 initially there was a tremendous amount of like bubble and 226 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:23.879 pop and excitement about what this uncovery emergence discovery was 227 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:26.759 going to be like. And then three months after or 228 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:30.600 four months after I returned to civilian life, we were 229 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:33.399 in the Santa Rosa fires, which was at that point 230 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:38.120 the biggest fire that California had ever seen, and my 231 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:43.799 health tanked, and so I was really really unwell and 232 00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:47.039 really struggling because I was trying to figure out a 233 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:50.600 whole bunch of things as well as trying to figure 234 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:52.200 out why I was so sick and get better. 235 00:15:56.200 --> 00:15:58.279 If I may ask, why were you so sick? 236 00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:02.919 Well, I think what happened was that we all evacuated 237 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:05.840 and there was like three inches of ash that was 238 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:09.679 over everything, and the ash there were five thousand buildings 239 00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:12.120 that burned, and half of them were businesses, so you 240 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:15.960 can only imagine what was in that ash. And they 241 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:18.279 were cleaning up and they took leaf blowers and I 242 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:21.639 got a face full of the ash, and my health 243 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:25.759 just went south. And I think I had underlying conditions 244 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:29.120 that got activated because of the toxicity, and it took 245 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:32.159 a long time to figure out what was what. 246 00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:43.159 There's this idea out there, you know, I mean, I 247 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:50.000 feel we need people like you who were called to 248 00:16:53.360 --> 00:17:00.360 what to represent to be to help help us be 249 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:05.240 present and honor that and live that. And there's and 250 00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:07.759 correct me if I'm wrong here, But there's often a 251 00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:12.640 kind of challenge to that, right like, okay, well, you're 252 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:18.119 living this life on this mountain. What happens when you live? 253 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:22.279 Why can't you do that in the city. Is it 254 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:26.160 possible to do that in a civilian as a civilian, 255 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:28.599 You know, there's a kind of this dichotomy. 256 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:32.640 So there is a dichotomy, and part of it is 257 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:36.720 because people don't really understand what practices and what meditation 258 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:39.960 is and what monastic life is. So people have an 259 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:42.759 assumption that when you're living in a monastery, everything is 260 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:46.400 roses and there's no conflict, and that everything is offered 261 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:50.119 to you and you don't have to work, and that's 262 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:53.359 not true. You know, when you're living in a monastery, 263 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:56.599 you're living in community. And anytime you're living in a community, 264 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:00.480 there are people, and people are peoplish, whether they arenastics 265 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.200 or whether they're not monastics, and you have to deal 266 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:06.480 with peoplishness in terms of what gets stirred up and 267 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:10.279 activated inside of you. And you know, as a monastic, 268 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:14.000 we also worked, and so like I remember, I was 269 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:17.519 the work none and we had a visiting well, we 270 00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:19.799 had an anagerica. And at the end of his time 271 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:22.480 of being two years as a novice, he said that 272 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:27.119 the hardest day of his time working was when he 273 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:29.920 was helping the nuns work, and I was the work 274 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:32.920 none making sure that he did all these things. So 275 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:36.880 hard work was a lot of what we did. So 276 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:40.480 the difference is that in a monastery, you have the 277 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:43.039 support to keep the precepts, You have the support with 278 00:18:43.160 --> 00:18:48.160 basic requisites, and you have support incredible support for doing 279 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:53.319 retreats and having times of solitude, as well as oftentimes 280 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:59.720 extraordinary opportunity to hear excellent teachings. But life is life, 281 00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:03.160 no matter what your hairstyle, no matter what color you're wearing, 282 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:08.319 no matter how much money you have, there's still what 283 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:11.160 goes on in terms of what arises in your mind 284 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:14.079 and how you relate to that. And so that basic 285 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:17.839 experience of being human is something that everybody has in common, 286 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:21.519 no matter what their lifestyle is. The difference is is 287 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:25.759 that as a monastic, we are trained to learn how 288 00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:29.319 to cultivate our attention in a way where we can 289 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:32.480 have choices about what we follow as opposed to what 290 00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:35.680 we enact in a way that might be different for 291 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:40.200 people who are not exposed to meditation practices. And we 292 00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:43.440 are also living with ethical guidelines that encourage us to 293 00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:48.160 live with integrity and harmlessness and honesty, and in some 294 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:53.079 living situations, in worldly situations, that's not so present. In fact, 295 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:56.599 the opposite is encouraged. So there are some differences, but 296 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:00.480 the basic challenge of being human is similar in whatever 297 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:04.160 situation you find yourself in. So I'm no longer a monastic, 298 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:08.880 but I continue practicing, and I continue seeing the choices 299 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:11.599 that I have and seeing the patterns that get activated, 300 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:15.279 and seeing the ways in which I can work with 301 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:18.359 them or let them just roll out. 302 00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:24.000 So what are you doing now with awakening Truth? When 303 00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:27.440 did you found that? Tell us about that. 304 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:31.119 That was founded in two thousand and nine, and it 305 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:33.400 was a response to the fact that I was no 306 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:35.759 longer living in a community and I needed to have 307 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:40.200 organizational support in order for basic things to happen, and 308 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:43.079 it has morphed over the years. Initially I was a monastic, 309 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:47.640 and then I was a bikuni, and then I shifted 310 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:51.880 to having more trauma informed teachings, so that I included 311 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:55.960 learning how to work with trauma and implementing them in 312 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:01.880 classical meditation instructions, and then more recently, in the last 313 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:07.039 few years, I created a program called the Integrated Meditation program, 314 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:12.160 because what I found was that as brilliant and liberating 315 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:18.400 as the teachings were, they didn't include understanding of trauma. 316 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:24.599 They didn't understand attachment wounding and how that impacts our 317 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:28.519 ability to meditate, and it didn't have any frame of 318 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:35.000 reference or about what narcissistic wounding is. So the attachment 319 00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:40.480 repair that the Integrated Meditation Program makes possible shifts are 320 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:46.720 fundamental patterns so that we have more internal sense of safety, 321 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:53.200 and so that we can also access more comfort and 322 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:56.799 feel a sense of being valued and loved for who 323 00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:01.440 we are rather than for what we do, and to 324 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:06.920 encourage ourselves to express ourselves, to explore, to play, and 325 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:12.559 to have fun. And when these qualities are present and 326 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:18.400 our patterns shift in accordance with the presence of them, 327 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:23.720 rather than they were often formed because of the absence 328 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:28.759 of them. And these fundamental patterns have a huge impact 329 00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:32.880 on our health, our well being, our internal sense of 330 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:36.640 who we are, our relationships, our outlook on the world. 331 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:42.799 It's global. So the Integrated Meditation Program is a six 332 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:47.599 month immersive program designed to help people do this work. 333 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:56.799 What does it mean to incorporate the principles of being 334 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:00.720 trauma informed into meditation. What does that look like? Specifically, 335 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:01.920 give us an idea. 336 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:07.200 Okay, So in the classical teachings, they're the first instructions 337 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:09.200 in the Sati Patana suta, which is one of the 338 00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:12.880 main sutos that tell you how to meditate is go 339 00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:14.880 to the root of a tree or to an empty 340 00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:17.599 hut or into an open field, sit down, close your eyes, 341 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:25.720 and bring mindfulness present. That meditation instructions assumes you have 342 00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:31.000 enough safety to sit still, to close your eyes, and 343 00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:34.839 to bring your attention inward to what's happening in your body. 344 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:39.279 To add to be alone in a field, right. 345 00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:44.359 Yeah, So it presumes a level of safety that people 346 00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:48.759 who are navigating trauma often do not have. And so 347 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:52.319 you can go on a meditation retreat feeling or thinking 348 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:54.880 or hoping that the meditation retreat is going to be 349 00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:58.000 something that's going to be liberating, and can come out 350 00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:00.880 where you're just very activated and you're in worse shape 351 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:04.920 than you were when you went in, because the instructions 352 00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:08.680 presume something that may not be there if you're navigating 353 00:24:09.640 --> 00:24:13.319 certain kinds of trauma or certain kinds of attachment wounding. 354 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:24.200 How and when did you realize integrating trauma informed practices 355 00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:27.440 might be important or significant in this work. 356 00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:30.839 So I was carrying a lot of trauma and I 357 00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:33.400 wasn't aware of it. And then finally I began to 358 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:36.559 put the pieces together and started working with a therapist, 359 00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:41.319 a trauma therapist, and noticing big differences. And then I 360 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:48.640 also learned about attachment theory and became very excited because 361 00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:52.359 in the people are peoplish kind of scenarios in the monastery. 362 00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:58.119 Understanding attachment theory began to help me understand some of 363 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:00.920 the behaviors that I couldn't make sense out of before, Like, 364 00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:03.920 how is it possible when you have a community of 365 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:08.359 people who are committed to harmlessness, who have precepts that 366 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:12.119 support them in harmlessness, that have practices that encourage them 367 00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:15.519 to understand what's happening in their own mind? How come 368 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:18.039 things can happen in a way that there can be 369 00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:22.960 profound harm that results? Like how is that possible? And 370 00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:25.720 So in my own experience of what I lived through 371 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:30.039 and in my own dedication, it wasn't that I was slack. 372 00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:33.359 You know, I think I counted up like fifty thousand 373 00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:38.079 hours of meditation. You know, it wasn't like this was 374 00:25:38.200 --> 00:25:41.119 just a weekend hobby, you know, and I could see 375 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:45.480 that there were patterns in myself that hadn't resolved. So 376 00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:48.759 part of it was inward. Instead of asking how can 377 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.920 I do more meditation? I started asking what else do 378 00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:56.079 I need? And then I began to find frames of 379 00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:59.559 reference that made sense for me. I began to look 380 00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:02.880 and think, oh, my goodness, this makes so much sense. 381 00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:05.279 Why there's so many things going on in the community 382 00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:07.200 that don't make sense otherwise? 383 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:23.279 When you're beginning these meditations and cognizant of trauma informed practices, 384 00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:26.759 what are some things you might. 385 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:33.079 Say or do so something simple like before you close 386 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:37.920 your eyes, look around the room, look behind your shoulders, 387 00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:43.160 look behind your back. Notice the absence of danger in 388 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:48.519 your visual field. When you recognize there's no actual danger 389 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:53.119 in your visual field, do you feel comfortable to close 390 00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:58.480 your eyes? If you feel comfortable, close your eyes. If 391 00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:04.960 you don't feel comfortable, don't close your eyes. So each teaching, 392 00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:08.160 working with the body, and working with the hard and 393 00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:12.720 working with the frames of reference have a trauma informed 394 00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:16.279 component to it, which means that if we're dealing with trauma, 395 00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:18.400 or if the clients that we're working with or the 396 00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:21.240 students that we have are dealing with trauma. We need 397 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:26.000 to understand some things rather than just presume that because 398 00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:29.839 the classical teachings have been around for twenty five hundred years, 399 00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:34.359 then they are what this student needs right now. So 400 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:39.480 the adaptation is to understand the context where the classical 401 00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:47.880