Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of The Barbie and Ken Killers.
Speaker 2: I'm Nicole and I'm Ben and you're listening to Wicked
Speaker 2: and Grim and Drew Grime podcast.
Speaker 1: Morning audience listeners question.
Speaker 2: Is what's up, guys?
Speaker 1: Welcome.
Speaker 2: Booze is present because we need we need booze for
Speaker 2: this case.
Speaker 1: It's a wild one.
Speaker 2: And I did say in the last episode I needed whiskey.
Speaker 2: I'm not drinking whiskey strictly because because it's still hot
Speaker 2: as balls and I need a cold beer.
Speaker 1: A cold beer. You're not drinking White Claws.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm drinking cold beer from Smithers Smithers Brewing Fun.
Speaker 2: It's their new cloud Waters with Beer. I saw it
Speaker 2: the liquor store and I was like, I'm trying it
Speaker 2: and at my first sip I like it good.
Speaker 1: I'm glad.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Anyways, after that.
Speaker 1: Plug, yeah, not sponsored or anything not sponsored by So yeah,
Speaker 1: we're going to jump back into it as a little recap.
Speaker 1: I guess we were talking about Paul Bernardo and Carla.
Speaker 1: Hello home, whoa Carla? I can't even speak.
Speaker 2: Wow, Nicole's had one. She's drunk.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is okay. Could you imagine if I was
Speaker 1: like shouldar trying to do a podcast.
Speaker 2: We should do that one day drunk wicked and great.
Speaker 1: Okay, well I thought that would be fun back in
Speaker 1: the day, but now that we've like started this second,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: If I would want to back in the day a
Speaker 2: whole like five months that we first started the podcast,
Speaker 2: So I think we should do that one day drunk
Speaker 2: wickening grim.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe maybe, maybe maybe we should.
Speaker 2: We'll put up a story and see what people think.
Speaker 1: For sure they're gonna want it, but it might be
Speaker 1: ever disaster.
Speaker 2: I think would be. That's the best part.
Speaker 1: I'll have to do commentary because, like lots of times, if
Speaker 1: I'm too drunk, I can't read.
Speaker 2: Oh, I will be so screwed. I'll be the same.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be a ship show if we do it.
Speaker 2: But I'm totally down for it.
Speaker 1: Okay. So yeah, we're talking about Paul, and we're talking
Speaker 1: about Carla, and we're talking about how their pieces of
Speaker 1: shit cutting right to it, cutting right to it. We
Speaker 1: went through like the Scarborough rapes and then we just
Speaker 1: stopped at We've actually was quite a ship place to stop.
Speaker 1: Sorry about that pipes, but how they were going to
Speaker 1: their next victim who was going to beat Tammy Homolko.
Speaker 1: I keep saying the last name wrong, so just bear
Speaker 1: with me. Names are hard, And Carla was basically offering
Speaker 1: her little sister's virginity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the biggest piece of thing you could get Christmas present. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Merry Christmas to my hobby. You can bang my sister
Speaker 2: like that's without her consented. That's really fucked. You don't
Speaker 2: get that. You can't do that.
Speaker 1: Sorry, I know it's it's just fucked up. It's fucked.
Speaker 2: These people are so messed up.
Speaker 1: Okay, So yeah, I basically had dropped hit off saying
Speaker 1: that the next victim was Tammy, so to start us off.
Speaker 1: This didn't necessarily come out of left field, though, okay,
Speaker 1: because although he was engaged, he as in Paul to Carla.
Speaker 1: Paul would flirt constantly with her young sister Tammy. His
Speaker 1: obsession with her would grow on the daily.
Speaker 2: Really, and how old is she? She's like fourteen fifteen fifteen.
Speaker 1: He would peer into her window and enter into her
Speaker 1: room to master while sheet while she's your face.
Speaker 2: That's fucking disgusting.
Speaker 1: You're just like a pauled. I couldn't even get through.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm not gonna be able to look at you, Carla,
Speaker 1: helping him gain access to her sisters, right the fuck?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, this case it just goes downhill from when
Speaker 1: I already fucking present. Earlier in July, Paul took Tammy
Speaker 1: across the border to get beer for a party, which,
Speaker 1: like that didn't make any sense to me, because like
Speaker 1: he could have gotten beer in Canada for her, and
Speaker 1: like she was young, so like and the drinking age
Speaker 1: over there is older. Anyway, I was just like whatever. Later,
Speaker 1: telling her fiance that they got drunk and made out that.
Speaker 2: All right, I feel really gross listening to this, but okay,
Speaker 2: keep going.
Speaker 1: Oh just wait, I just kind of read this next line. Okay.
Speaker 1: Carla would also role play her sister Oh in bed
Speaker 1: with Paul Oh wearing his wearing her sister's clothes, saying
Speaker 1: her name was Tammy and that she was fifteen years
Speaker 1: old and I'm your virgin.
Speaker 2: That is why what? No, yeah, no, that's that's a
Speaker 2: whole new kind of fucked up.
Speaker 1: Just a bit. It's a little fucked.
Speaker 2: You are enjoying putting me through this. I think I.
Speaker 1: Actually, okay, I put so much frickin' work into this one.
Speaker 1: This this podcast, so I'm like almost kind of like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be over.
Speaker 2: And get my life back until next one. You have
Speaker 2: to reach it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But then it's also like I knew that you
Speaker 1: would just cringe at so many things, and it's kind
Speaker 1: of fun to watch. Okay, this part doesn't make a
Speaker 1: lot of sense to me, with Carla offering Tammy's virginity
Speaker 1: as a Christmas gift, but I was like, maybe this
Speaker 1: was just their first attempt at it. But one night,
Speaker 1: Carla laced Tammy's spaghetti sauce with crushed vol volume vallium
Speaker 1: vallium valium she had stolen from her employee at the
Speaker 1: Martindale Animal Clinic. She served it to her sister, who
Speaker 1: soon lost consciousness. Paul then raped or maybe just like
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted Tammy while Carla watched, because Tammy woke up
Speaker 1: about a minute later. So the valium wasn't.
Speaker 2: Super strong enough for potent enough.
Speaker 1: Okay, So like I guess I don't know if that
Speaker 1: was first attemp or maybe the very tempted, but really
Speaker 1: like it wasn't long. So then on December twenty third,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety, this is six months before Paul and Carla
Speaker 1: were going to get married. Oh god, which is like
Speaker 1: kind of fucked up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this whole thing is kind of fucked up.
Speaker 1: My back is already hurting. This is going to be
Speaker 1: a long ride. Carla had stole the anesthetic agent and like,
Speaker 1: there's some medical things, so just bear with me. Halothane
Speaker 1: halathane from the clinic. They administered sleeping pills to the
Speaker 1: fifteen year old in a rub rub rumen eggnog cocktail.
Speaker 1: You like that.
Speaker 2: I love rummen eggnog.
Speaker 1: Without without the sleeping pills, right.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, I mean sometimes I want to get the
Speaker 2: nap in.
Speaker 1: So and when Tammy lost consciousness, they undressed her and
Speaker 1: Carla applied a Hall of Fame soaked cloth to her
Speaker 1: sister's nose and mouth. With Tammy's parents sleeping upstairs, Carla
Speaker 1: and Paul videotaped themselves raping her in the basement.
Speaker 2: They videoed it too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're really into that.
Speaker 2: Actually, So her sister was not necessarily just involved in
Speaker 2: the rape. She actually partook in the rape.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. There was even times where I think that
Speaker 1: she did things, but I didn't really dive into that.
Speaker 2: Let something, she's eating something off the floor, what are
Speaker 2: you doing, ripley, ripley, what you've got? Did you find
Speaker 2: a bug or something it's gone whatever it was, or no,
Speaker 2: I don't know, there's some thing over there.
Speaker 1: It's really a bug. Probably, So at one point Tammy
Speaker 1: began to vomit. They tried to revive her, and once
Speaker 1: the evidence was hidden, like Tammy being dressed and in
Speaker 1: her bedroom, they called nine one one. A few hours later,
Speaker 1: Tammy was pronounced dead at the Saint Catherine's General Hospital.
Speaker 1: Oh no, they killed her. Shit, really, despite their odd
Speaker 1: behavior of vacuuming and washing laundry in the middle of
Speaker 1: the night and Tammy having a nasty like it was nasty.
Speaker 1: I saw a picture chemical burn on her face. The
Speaker 1: coroner and the family accepted Paul and Carla's story are
Speaker 1: the official cause of Tammy's death. Death was accidental accidental
Speaker 1: choking on vomit after consumption of alcohol.
Speaker 2: That's oh my god.
Speaker 1: Like the burn was horrific on her face and I
Speaker 1: don't don't even have it in here, but they their
Speaker 1: lie or something was that while they're trying to like
Speaker 1: save her. It was carpet burn.
Speaker 2: Really, Yeah, there is a big difference between carpet burn
Speaker 2: and chemical burn.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like it's honestly just it blows my mind that
Speaker 1: they didn't check into that, Like that's crazy.
Speaker 2: No kidding, what kind of corner is this? Were they
Speaker 2: just like going down to the corner of like who
Speaker 2: knows where downtown being like, hey, yeah, someone to look
Speaker 2: at a dead body, and they're like some dudes at
Speaker 2: trench coat. Yo, I got your back, man.
Speaker 1: We've kind of been over that before though too lot
Speaker 1: somes if they're if it's not like super suspicious, Like
Speaker 1: it's like they don't dive in.
Speaker 2: You know, a chemical burn on the face of someone
Speaker 2: who just died of exphyxiation is super suspicious.
Speaker 1: I would think.
Speaker 2: So, whether she actually died of exphyxiation or it was
Speaker 2: the drug overdose regardless.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, like I think that she was puking, they
Speaker 1: probably didn't notice, Like they had this cloth up to
Speaker 1: her mouth and then she like choked it at on
Speaker 1: her vomit.
Speaker 2: Jeez.
Speaker 1: So Paul and Carla moved out of the Hamoko house
Speaker 1: shortly after to allow the parents to grieve, Carla apparently
Speaker 1: being quite annoyed that they were taking so long to
Speaker 1: get over it.
Speaker 2: Are you fucking serious?
Speaker 1: No? Not or I am okay. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're like, okay, She's not that bad then, so she
Speaker 1: was annoyed that she was annoyed because like her wedding
Speaker 1: was approaching, so she wanted like all the attention to
Speaker 1: be on her. And then they, the parents even were
Speaker 1: thinking that she should postpone her wedding because just this
Speaker 1: traumatic event just happened, like her Brigand's sister died, and
Speaker 1: she was like basically like, get the fuck over it.
Speaker 2: What the frig you know, like, seriously, what a piece
Speaker 2: of work? Ah, I want to call her the C word.
Speaker 2: I know, I want to say it. I can I
Speaker 2: say it? This?
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, moving on, I love you. Paul's next rape
Speaker 1: would be on April sixth, nineteen ninety one, committing his
Speaker 1: twelfth rape, raping a fourteen year old girl in Saint
Speaker 1: Catharine's but staying away from his like regular emo. He
Speaker 1: attacked the fourteen year old in the morning rather than
Speaker 1: late at night, and it did not occur near us. Stop.
Speaker 2: Okay, So he's evolving, like we discussed last time.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So then on June seventh, nineteen ninety one, Carla
Speaker 1: invited a fifteen year old girl she had befriended at
Speaker 1: a pet shop years earlier over for a girl's night
Speaker 1: member she used to work at like a pets yea, right,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to refer to this girl as Jane
Speaker 1: Doe after just.
Speaker 2: Because she's underage, is that right?
Speaker 1: You'll find out Okay. After an evening of shopping and dining,
Speaker 1: Carla began to feed Jane Doe alcohol laced with helcy
Speaker 1: in Helcian used to treat insomnia.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: When the girl lost consciousness, Carla called Paul to tell
Speaker 1: her that his surprise virgin wedding gift was ready.
Speaker 2: What the fuck? Like, what the fuck is.
Speaker 1: Isn't that just like unimaginable that you're like your gifts
Speaker 1: to someone is like a freaking young person that you've
Speaker 1: drugged and that is a virgin and you're gonna let
Speaker 1: your spouse right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my wedding gift to you, I got you a
Speaker 2: replica Cinderella shoe, Yeah, I really.
Speaker 1: I got you a gun, which I guess it kind
Speaker 1: of weird, but.
Speaker 2: A hunting rifle, yes, for the record, not just like hey,
Speaker 2: here's a nine mel go cap. Some asses like no.
Speaker 1: Paul videotape Carla raping the girl before he took over
Speaker 1: vaginally and anally penetrating her. The next morning, Jane Doe
Speaker 1: was nauseous but thought that her vomiting was from drinking
Speaker 1: alcohol for the first time and did not realize that
Speaker 1: she had been sexually assaulted.
Speaker 2: What she was sexually she was nauseous from being sexual assaulted,
Speaker 2: well from drinking.
Speaker 1: Like, remember they were feeding her lots of alcohol.
Speaker 2: That okay, okay, okay. I was like, wait, so she.
Speaker 1: Thought she was just sick from that, okay, but it
Speaker 1: was probably also it had to do I'm sure with
Speaker 1: like drinking, but then also like the drug that was
Speaker 1: in there, and then she was sore too, But like
Speaker 1: I think she just thought it.
Speaker 2: Was from booze. Yeah, I don't know, first time boozer,
Speaker 2: doesn't know what to expect to mean.
Speaker 1: In August, the same girl was invited back to their
Speaker 1: home to spend the night and was once again drugged
Speaker 1: and raped. At one point, Carla called nine one one
Speaker 1: as Jane Doe had appeared to stop breathe stop breathing,
Speaker 1: but called back a few minutes later to say that
Speaker 1: everything is actually all right, and the ambulance was recalled
Speaker 1: without following up. Jane Doe did survive.
Speaker 2: She did good.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean she's underage, so and she survived,
Speaker 1: so they're just referring to her chin fair enough, fair enough,
Speaker 1: I mean kind of sad, like I'm sure she's still
Speaker 1: out there and like she she had no idea. She
Speaker 1: thought she was just going to a friend's post to
Speaker 1: hang out and later has to find out that she
Speaker 1: was actually.
Speaker 2: Like rap rap twice. Yeah, fuck no, thank you, I
Speaker 2: don't I'm never going to go to a friend's house again.
Speaker 2: Someone's like, hey, you want to come over and fucking
Speaker 2: play watch the hockey game or something. Yeah, no, I
Speaker 2: want my sphincter intact. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, this is making you going to be
Speaker 1: like a hermitting.
Speaker 2: Probably this entire podcast, we're talking about people going out
Speaker 2: and like killing people and just crawl like the bedroom strangler,
Speaker 2: crawling in windows at night.
Speaker 1: Oh well, I know even like, oh, I don't even
Speaker 1: think I should say this, but we've been leaving like
Speaker 1: one window open at night. That's like kind of bothersome
Speaker 1: to me. And I think I've asked you a couple
Speaker 1: of times, so okay, and you're always kitchen. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: then if you weren't tell them. That would not be
Speaker 1: fucking open. There's no way.
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is, we do have dogs that would
Speaker 2: definitely alert us.
Speaker 1: They would alert us. I don't know if they would
Speaker 1: do anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know how it goes when I wake
Speaker 2: up and I hear some strange noises.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you're not home, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I've been home. Yeah, I'll break some teeth
Speaker 2: in at least I like to think I would, but
Speaker 2: I probably would just die, you would know.
Speaker 1: Okay, So next up, because we're not quite done yet,
Speaker 1: would be Leslie Mahaffey. On June fifteenth, nineteen ninety one,
Speaker 1: Paul was in Burlington to steal license plates and came
Speaker 1: across Leslie. She was a fourteen year old girl, and
Speaker 1: just to do the math for you, Paul would have
Speaker 1: been twenty seven at that time. Fox sake Like that's nasty, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like nasty.
Speaker 2: That's basically double her age.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like disgusting. Leslie missed her curfew after attending a
Speaker 1: friend's wake and was locked out of her house, which
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's sad. I mean, okay, that wake was
Speaker 1: earlier in the day and then they were just like
Speaker 1: she was kind of at a celebration, and I think
Speaker 1: she was kind of like not she was not. She
Speaker 1: had some issues and her parents like locked her out,
Speaker 1: but I mean, god, they probably yeah.
Speaker 2: Shit, I don't want to hear what's coming up.
Speaker 1: But because also she had phoned a friend too to
Speaker 1: see if she could sleep there, but then the friend
Speaker 1: was like, no, it's not like a good idea. It's
Speaker 1: really late, like my mom might get mad, and so
Speaker 1: like Leslie was on her own and then have terrible
Speaker 1: look luck.
Speaker 2: She ran into Paul across this dick weed.
Speaker 1: So Paul, coming across Leslie on the street, approached her
Speaker 1: saying that he wanted to break into a neighbor's house. Leslie,
Speaker 1: being unfazed by this, was more concerned if Paul had
Speaker 1: any cigarettes.
Speaker 2: Really, that's that's her question.
Speaker 1: I know, I would feel like, you're out.
Speaker 2: Alone with some strange dude and he's like, suck you
Speaker 2: want to?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that something was at that age, especially if you're
Speaker 1: like going through something, you probably think that you're rule in.
Speaker 2: The world, right, I guess Yeah, when.
Speaker 1: I was dumb as a kid, I can tell you
Speaker 1: that when Paul led her to his car to get
Speaker 1: the cigarettes, I'm assuming he blindfolded her, forced her into
Speaker 1: his car, and proceeded to drive her home.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 1: Okay, I needed a breath there. Paul and Carla, Okay,
Speaker 1: actually I didn't throw this in there, but it's so
Speaker 1: fucked up. It's like, okay, Carl, I think was like
Speaker 1: sleeping and in the morning was like all pissy that
Speaker 1: he had this girl there. And you want to know
Speaker 1: the reason why she was actually pissy? Why is because
Speaker 1: I guess the night before Paul had served him in
Speaker 1: Leslie's champagne, in their nice champagne glasses, like they're special ones,
Speaker 1: and so she was pissed off that.
Speaker 2: But not the fact that he just kidnapped this young
Speaker 2: fu girl and brought her home to rape while she's sleeping.
Speaker 1: She eventually just came around and came part of it.
Speaker 2: These guys are fucked up, Like I can't understand. All right, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Moving on.
Speaker 1: Paul and Carla then once again videotape themselves torturing and
Speaker 1: sexually abusing Leslie while they listened to Bob Marley and
Speaker 1: David Bowie.
Speaker 2: At one point, all right, what they're sitting here torturing
Speaker 2: and sexually assaulting this girl while they're playing songs like
Speaker 2: every little thing right, like what that like.
Speaker 1: Like this, wait till this, this next line, like this
Speaker 1: next line is like wow Okay. At one point, Paul
Speaker 1: praised Leslie, saying that she was doing a good job,
Speaker 1: a damned good job, and that the next two hours
Speaker 1: would determine her fate. Right now, her scoring was perfect.
Speaker 2: What the fuck does that even mean?
Speaker 1: That's nasty?
Speaker 2: Hey wow.
Speaker 1: The assault escalated, with Leslie crying out in pain, begging
Speaker 1: Paul to stop as he was sodomizing her and her
Speaker 1: hands were bound with twine. Leslie's fate was sealed later
Speaker 1: when she mentioned to Paul that her blindfold seemed to
Speaker 1: be slipping down. This single signaled to Paul and Carla
Speaker 1: the possibility that she could identify them if she lived.
Speaker 1: The following day, Leslie was killed.
Speaker 2: These people make me fucking sick.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. And it's almost like God, if she
Speaker 1: didn't say something about her blindfold, like would she have lived?
Speaker 2: But probably not, But her blindfold would have fell down.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: If it's slipping, it's going to keep slipping, it's going
Speaker 2: to fall down, and they would see She would see
Speaker 2: them for sure, and that would see her fate even
Speaker 2: more so. This way she rolled the dice, maybe they
Speaker 2: would fix it and it's okay, But they didn't take that.
Speaker 2: They didn't let her take the chance.
Speaker 1: So a little glimpse into the future too. Paul claimed
Speaker 1: Carla fed her a lethal dose of hallsint halsane. I
Speaker 1: think I might be saying that wrong, helse On.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: It was the thing for insolmia, I think. And Carla
Speaker 1: claimed that Paul strangled Leslie. So they have different different
Speaker 1: stories there.
Speaker 2: Also in the future they kind of turn on each
Speaker 2: other a bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that might be a little glimpse, A little glimpse.
Speaker 2: They a little bit of kara at least.
Speaker 1: They then proceeded to hold on to Leslie's dead body
Speaker 1: in their basement until after they hosted Carla's family over
Speaker 1: for dinner, at which point they then disposed of the
Speaker 1: evidence by dismembering Leslie and encasing her remains in cement. Keeping.
Speaker 1: The receipts would be held against Paul later as he
Speaker 1: purchased a dozen bags of the cement at a hardware store.
Speaker 2: Why did he keep the receipt That's the dumbest thing
Speaker 2: he kept.
Speaker 1: Other weird shit, Well, I mean they're fucking videotape in
Speaker 1: the ship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: I don't know what they're concerned about getting caught like
Speaker 1: the Rodney I'll.
Speaker 2: Call a case. One of the things, like the dating
Speaker 2: game killer.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: One of the things he had that convicted him was
Speaker 2: a fucking receipt.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that would probably I keep receipts. So
Speaker 1: I'm fucked.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do not. I'm bad at that.
Speaker 1: So, using his grandfather father saw to dismember Leslie, Paula
Speaker 1: and Carla made a number of trips to Lake Gibson
Speaker 1: to dump Leslie's remains, leaving the heaviest block, which weighed
Speaker 1: about two hundred pounds, near the shore as they didn't
Speaker 1: have the ability to sink it. It was found a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks later on Carla and Paul's wedding day.
Speaker 2: Don't dull they So they didn't even.
Speaker 1: Dispose the body properly, not really, like I mean, they
Speaker 1: fucked up, Like that's two hundred pounds, Like what were
Speaker 1: they thinking? Yeah, no shit, and so yeah, they couldn't
Speaker 1: they couldn't put it deep enough and stuff, and so
Speaker 1: they just left it on the shore, all right.
Speaker 2: Of course, someone's gonna find it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so the next victim would be Christian French.
Speaker 2: How many victims are there?
Speaker 1: I think I think this might be the last one,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to scroll and lose my spot.
Speaker 1: Paul and Carla were driving through. I'm pretty sure it
Speaker 1: is Saint Catherine's looking for a potential next victim, you know,
Speaker 1: just strolling around when God, I would be going like
Speaker 1: ice creamers.
Speaker 2: I was just about to say, go and get some
Speaker 2: ice cream.
Speaker 1: You drive out teenager when they okay, I mean.
Speaker 2: You could probably get someone under age with an ice
Speaker 2: cream truck. Combine the two. I don't know, you want
Speaker 2: to get the creepy Peto van? Maybe?
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, Okay. As they passed Holy Cross Secondary School,
Speaker 1: a Catholic high school, they spotted fifteen year old Christian
Speaker 1: Kristin making her way home. They pulled into a nearby
Speaker 1: parking lot and Carla got out of the car, approaching
Speaker 1: her with a map in hand, pretending to meet assistance.
Speaker 1: I feel like, okay, I'm actually a super bitch. Actually
Speaker 1: if people like approach me. And I think it's from
Speaker 1: just listening to true crime, because lots of times it's
Speaker 1: like sketch and well, no, the majority of time it's
Speaker 1: not sketch, but it can be sketch. And I'm can
Speaker 1: you just like keep your distance away.
Speaker 2: From me, place your hand out like excuse that, just
Speaker 2: like stop, do not come any closer.
Speaker 1: So as Kristin looked at the map, Paul attacked her
Speaker 1: from behind, forcing her into the front seat of the car.
Speaker 1: From the back seat, Carla subdued her by pulling her hair. Kristen,
Speaker 1: taking the same route home from school every day and
Speaker 1: arriving home at generally the same time each day, was
Speaker 1: reported missing very soon after the abduction.
Speaker 2: Good good, Good.
Speaker 1: Her parents convinced that something bad had happened within I
Speaker 1: thought you're drinking something.
Speaker 2: Funey, I might burp because of the beers, some leaning
Speaker 2: away the microphone. Sorry.
Speaker 1: Within twenty four hours, the Niagara Regional Police Service assembled
Speaker 1: a team searching Christian's root and found several witnesses who
Speaker 1: had actually seen the abduction from different locations. Her shoe
Speaker 1: was also recovered from the parking lot, which definitely showed
Speaker 1: the seriousness of the of the adduction.
Speaker 2: One you lose the spot I did getting too distracted
Speaker 2: with me getting this because you're.
Speaker 1: Moving around a lot like just sit there.
Speaker 2: I leaned away from the mic for a second and
Speaker 2: then I like just reached down for a pencil, and
Speaker 2: you're just like the whole world's ending.
Speaker 1: Okay. So over the Easter weekend, Paul and Carla videotape
Speaker 1: themselves torturing, raping, and sodomizing this girl, forcing her to
Speaker 1: drink large amounts of alcohol and submit to Paul. They
Speaker 1: never blindfolding blindfolded her, so they intended to kill her
Speaker 1: all along. Her nude body was found on April thirtieth,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two in a ditch in Burlington. Paul and
Speaker 1: Carla had washed her body and cut off her hair
Speaker 1: to like impede identification and yeat. As far as we know,
Speaker 1: Christian French would be their last victim, hopefully, But well,
Speaker 1: I mean I touch on this later. I think there's
Speaker 1: like so many.
Speaker 2: More generally with serial killers, there's they.
Speaker 1: Don't they don't admit to every single one, like do
Speaker 1: they really no?
Speaker 2: And just yeah, yeah, yeah, there's of course a bigger
Speaker 2: rap sheet.
Speaker 1: So if Paul hadn't already compromised his future, he did
Speaker 1: even more so that summer when Carla would turn into
Speaker 1: his literal punching big oh shit, severely beating her many times,
Speaker 1: causing people to notice in January, and I just mean
Speaker 1: that because like that's going to help her in court. Right.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you grated that, but I'm I did.
Speaker 1: I'm disappointed.
Speaker 2: I got it a note take in Remember that pencil
Speaker 2: I said I was reaching for I'm writing this day.
Speaker 1: Okay, but lots of times like you do throw out
Speaker 1: subtle hints and I don't get them. So now I'm
Speaker 1: just like, oh, maybe Ben doesn't get it.
Speaker 2: I got it. I appreciate it. Thanks, thanks for letting
Speaker 2: me know. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: You got my back, and you're right. Of nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: Carla's parents would intervene and persuade her to take refuge
Speaker 1: in the home of one of her sisters, her sister
Speaker 1: Laurie's friend's house, whose husband was a police officer. Chargers
Speaker 1: were filed against Paul and he was arrested but later released.
Speaker 2: Of course, they're always fucking later released every goddamn story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, he's already been like, like I already mentioned
Speaker 1: it one I think once, I think in yesterday's episode,
Speaker 1: but there was other times too, like I could have.
Speaker 1: This case could probably be like five episodes. But there
Speaker 1: was other times where like police would chat with him
Speaker 1: and he just always got away with it because he
Speaker 1: was like a charmer.
Speaker 2: I guess right, And it's like I go like five
Speaker 2: over the speed limit and I get a speeding ticket
Speaker 2: and can't talk my way out of it.
Speaker 1: Well, honestly, I would be not guilty of something and
Speaker 1: look guilty of something. It's like, is how I would
Speaker 1: I think what happened to me?
Speaker 2: Well, it's like like when you get pulled over by
Speaker 2: the cops and then it's like when they're slowly walking
Speaker 2: up to the vehicle from behind you, you're all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, like shit, do I have a key blow
Speaker 2: of cocaine in my glovebox? I don't even do drugs,
Speaker 2: and you're just like panic like all this random stuff
Speaker 2: like maybe I have a dead body in my trunk.
Speaker 2: I hope he doesn't search the trunk.
Speaker 1: I know, I hope that he doesn't look around. I
Speaker 1: might know something like right.
Speaker 2: Maybe someone left a joint behind or something like who knows,
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, I wasn't drinking today, was I Like?
Speaker 2: All this sort of shit goes through your head.
Speaker 1: I know then shortly after this, and this is twenty
Speaker 1: six months after Paul originally submitted his DNA sample. Remember
Speaker 1: that DNA sample, the pool of a.
Speaker 2: Sample, the whole pool of samples.
Speaker 1: Police were informed that it was a match of the
Speaker 1: Scarboro rapist and immediately placed Paul under twenty four hour surveillance.
Speaker 2: So it took them two years to identify that sam.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, well they just kept Okay. One thing is
Speaker 1: they stopped right, the scar rape stopped when he moved,
Speaker 1: and so that almost even put them even more on
Speaker 1: the back burner because they're like, oh, they're not really
Speaker 1: happening now.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Still, but I'm like, that's bad. So they requested an
Speaker 1: interview with Carla on February ninth, nineteen ninety three. Despite
Speaker 1: hearing their suspicions about Paul, Carla only focused on his
Speaker 1: abuse of her. Later that night, being worried, she told
Speaker 1: her aunt and uncle that Paul was the Scarborough rapist
Speaker 1: and that her and Paul Paul were involved in the
Speaker 1: rape and murder of Leslie and Christian, and that the
Speaker 1: rapes were videotaped, were recorded on videotape.
Speaker 2: So she just up and admitted it all.
Speaker 1: She's telling her family. Yeah, well, I mean.
Speaker 2: That's that's admitting it, but like, yeah to someone at.
Speaker 1: Least, Yeah, she's admitting it. But you'll see she doesn't
Speaker 1: admit it really well.
Speaker 2: She goes back in her word in court. Well, no
Speaker 2: official statements and stuff or what.
Speaker 1: Carla got herself a good lawyer, George Walker. Here we go,
Speaker 1: and this is funny. She apparently knew. It's not funny. Actually,
Speaker 1: she apparently knew knew him because she cared for her
Speaker 1: his cancer, his dalmatian that had cancer. So that's actually
Speaker 1: not funny. I'm not sure who said that. George realized
Speaker 1: that Carla was not necessary the innocent victim of Paul
Speaker 1: as she had painted herself to be, but he did
Speaker 1: not fully understand what exactly her rule had been in
Speaker 1: the crimes and seek some kind of and wanted to
Speaker 1: seek some kind of immunity for her. On February seventeenth,
Speaker 1: Paul was arrested in conjunction with both the Scarborough rapes
Speaker 1: and the murders of Leslie and Christian, with the search
Speaker 1: weren't obtained because his link to the murders was weak,
Speaker 1: the warrant was limited.
Speaker 2: How is it weak? What do you mean, how is
Speaker 2: his link to the murders?
Speaker 1: And they had think not the so they were not
Speaker 1: weak to the rapes. But they didn't have a lot
Speaker 1: of edible so the search weren't was mostly like on
Speaker 1: the grounds that he was just the Scarborough rapist and
Speaker 1: didn't murder these two girls.
Speaker 2: Well, search weren't still allows them to search as ship
Speaker 2: for stuff.
Speaker 1: Well okay, well I'm about I was about to get in.
Speaker 2: Sorry, sorry, I was.
Speaker 1: About to say everything the warrant was limited, and then
Speaker 1: I was going to say how it was limited, okay
Speaker 1: before you had your little hissy.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I want to know this shit.
Speaker 1: No evidence which was not expected and documented in the
Speaker 1: warrant could be removed from the premises, and all videotapes
Speaker 1: found by police had to be viewed in the house.
Speaker 1: Damage had to be kept to a minimum. Police could
Speaker 1: not tear down walls looking for videotapes. That was what
Speaker 1: it was limited to.
Speaker 2: Were the fucking tapes in the walls.
Speaker 1: So an extension extensive library of books and videos on
Speaker 1: sexual deviation, porn and serial killers was found, as well
Speaker 1: as a written description from Paul of every one of
Speaker 1: the Scarborough rapes. Unfortunately, the only home videotape found was
Speaker 1: a brief segment of Carla performing oral sex on Jane
Speaker 1: Doe that.
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, so the tapes were in the fucking walls, weren't.
Speaker 1: They, yeah, or the ceiling or something. Yeah. Shortly after that,
Speaker 1: George George Walker, which was Carla's lawyer, and Murray Siegel
Speaker 1: Sigel I don't know who was a plea bargain specialist
Speaker 1: for the Attorney General, informed Carla that the government was
Speaker 1: offering her a plea bargain. She would get twelve years
Speaker 1: in prison and be eligible for parole in as little
Speaker 1: as three years with good behavior. The government even agreed
Speaker 1: to content contact the parole Board on Carla's behalf, pointing
Speaker 1: out to them the importance of her testimony against Paul.
Speaker 1: In exchange for this, Carla would agree to tell the
Speaker 1: absolute truth about her involvement in the crimes and everything
Speaker 1: she knew about them. Carla obviously agreed unconditionally, and she.
Speaker 2: Doesn't tell the truth spoiler alert. I'm sure I don't know.
Speaker 1: She maybe does, but she also plays, She also.
Speaker 2: Makes her she downplays her involvement.
Speaker 1: She's a victim in her eyes, she's.
Speaker 2: A victim of Paul, which I did kind of say
Speaker 2: that in the other episode. I felt bad for her
Speaker 2: because she's just so like taken by this dude that
Speaker 2: she's willing to do everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but she's actively took in and like I also
Speaker 1: feel like she had the opportunity to leave him.
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree, she is partly a victim. However, yes,
Speaker 2: she is also a fucking predator, a rapist her I know.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, he's a charmer.
Speaker 2: Would she have done those things if it weren't for him,
Speaker 2: Probably not, So that is where I think she is
Speaker 2: a victim. However, she's still a fucking piece of shit
Speaker 2: because she did it all too. She was involved.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this next part is a bit of a
Speaker 1: tear jerker. In March, Carla would be checked into psychiatric
Speaker 1: hospital for assessment. She also eventually got up the courage
Speaker 1: to write a very important letter. Do you have any
Speaker 1: idea who the letter would.
Speaker 2: Be to her sister?
Speaker 1: Her parents?
Speaker 2: Oh? I thought it was gonna be like a beyond
Speaker 2: the grave letter sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Okay, And it said, dear Mom, Dad, and Laurie, this
Speaker 1: is the hardest letter I'll ever have to write, and
Speaker 1: you'll probably all hate me once you read it. I've
Speaker 1: kept this inside myself for so long, and I just
Speaker 1: can't lie to you anymore. Both Paul and I are
Speaker 1: responsible for Tammy's death. I could like almost cry. Paul
Speaker 1: was in love with her and wanted to have sex
Speaker 1: with her. He wanted me to help him. He wanted
Speaker 1: me to get sleeping pills from work to drug her.
Speaker 1: He threatened me and physically and emotionally abused me when
Speaker 1: I refused. No words I can say can make you
Speaker 1: understand what he put me through. So stupidly, I agreed
Speaker 1: to do as he said, but something, maybe the combination
Speaker 1: of drugs and the food she ate that night, caused
Speaker 1: her to vomit. I tried so hard to save her.
Speaker 1: I am I'm so sorry, but my words, but no
Speaker 1: words I can say, can bring her back. I would
Speaker 1: gladly give my life for her. I don't expect you
Speaker 1: to ever forgive me, for I will never forgive myself.
Speaker 1: Carla xo XO. Wow, isn't that really fucking sad?
Speaker 2: That's heartbreaking?
Speaker 1: Like it actually like makes me feel more sweaty. And
Speaker 1: it's not just because we're in a heat wave, because
Speaker 1: it's so sad, Like, it's so sad it's so sad.
Speaker 2: Drink some of your white claw might help take the
Speaker 2: sweatiness away. But no, definitely, that's that's straight from the heart.
Speaker 2: That's that's serious. And she's definitely feeling some not resentment
Speaker 2: to her family or even necessarily towards fucking what's his nat, Paul,
Speaker 2: but a lot towards herself for what she did rightfully.
Speaker 1: So, but then also she is just like she's smart, right,
Speaker 1: and I think that she was she actually writing that
Speaker 1: letter from the heart or was it like trying to
Speaker 1: make the letter seem like she's a good person that
Speaker 1: just got caught up in something potentially, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, she didn't even nearly necessarily have to write
Speaker 1: a letter to her family really if she didn't want to.
Speaker 2: So Carla doesn't forgive her for what she did.
Speaker 1: She's still a piece of shit, you know, like just brutal.
Speaker 1: Carla's trial began on June twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 1: her psychiatric report helping to set the stage for the
Speaker 1: plea bargain deal. It concluded that Carla knew what was happening,
Speaker 1: but she felt totally helpless and unable to act in
Speaker 1: her own defense. Or anyone else's defense. She was, in
Speaker 1: my opinion, like the psychiatric report, paralyzed with fear and
Speaker 1: the state, and in that state became obedient and self serving.
Speaker 1: Have a question, Apparently you do, because your hand's been raised,
Speaker 1: and I was like, hold on, hold on.
Speaker 2: So did she write that letter before her psychiatric evaluation
Speaker 2: in the report for her plea deal?
Speaker 1: Do I know that?
Speaker 2: Because if she did, then I think it most likely
Speaker 2: was a ploy to better her position.
Speaker 1: I feel like, well, she wrote it before she was
Speaker 1: in court, then yeah, it.
Speaker 2: Was most likely upon in her scheme, because as far
Speaker 2: as I'm concerned, because there's there's two ways I see it.
Speaker 2: Either A she and I do think she is partly
Speaker 2: a victim in this whole thing. So either A she
Speaker 2: is showing she's a victim and showing she is, though
Speaker 2: still a piece of shit, still part human. Or B
Speaker 2: she has no emotions about it and she's trying to
Speaker 2: fucking play the system and get some fucking benefit out
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: One of those well, because something I had even not said,
Speaker 1: I forgot to actually mention it. But like there was
Speaker 1: some jealousy too with her sister, right, Oh yeah, because
Speaker 1: like Paul was flirting with her, and then I think
Speaker 1: her sister kind of liked it and was even like
Speaker 1: I'm younger and prettier and stuff, and so I could
Speaker 1: see it there was like some resentment there. But then
Speaker 1: I also don't know, I don't think that when they
Speaker 1: did that and when they were taking planning to take
Speaker 1: her virginity, that they didn't plan to kill her. And honestly,
Speaker 1: Paul was actually mad for a long time at Carla
Speaker 1: that he killed her because he like that she killed her.
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, but also they were pissed off at
Speaker 2: Carla's parents were not getting over it soon enough for
Speaker 2: the wedding.
Speaker 1: Well Carla was yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So clearly she doesn't have much remorse.
Speaker 1: I know, I don't know. I know, like when at
Speaker 1: the end we can talk about it, and I feel
Speaker 1: like I, in the sense could feel bad for Carla,
Speaker 1: But I also don't think that she's as victim as
Speaker 1: she came across, and in my opinion.
Speaker 2: I don't think so either. I do you think there's
Speaker 2: she's still partly a victim, but she's wholly responsible.
Speaker 1: Still, well yeah, because like without her meeting him, I
Speaker 1: don't know if she would have been criminal. So the
Speaker 1: trial ended with the media only being allowed to report
Speaker 1: on a few details of the case so that the
Speaker 1: jury pool that would be selected for Paul's trial would
Speaker 1: not be tainted by information they heard prior to his trial.
Speaker 1: Expecting a public oak cry over the plea bargain, Murray,
Speaker 1: who was the plea bargain specialist, chose to make a statement,
Speaker 1: why not a greater penalty in light of the horrendous facts?
Speaker 1: Without her, the true state of affairs might never be
Speaker 1: known again. Guilty plea is the traditional hallmark of remorse.
Speaker 1: Her age, her lack of criminal record, the abuse and
Speaker 1: the influence of her husband, and her somewhat secondary role
Speaker 1: were factors. She's unlikely to reoffend. Carla left the trial
Speaker 1: after receiving the greed upon sentence and prepared herself for
Speaker 1: what was sure to be an ordeal, the trial of
Speaker 1: her husband Paul.
Speaker 2: Unlikely to re offend, Yeah, that doesn't mean you should
Speaker 2: be fucking forgiven or let out in public. Yeah you
Speaker 2: can still go fucking kill someone just because you're unlikely
Speaker 2: to fuck off.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, like just because you're unlikely too. You did
Speaker 1: all this bad shit and should you just be living
Speaker 1: a life like people who haven't done that ship exactly.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's like I just killed and raped, like or evolved
Speaker 2: in raping and killing combination of like twelve people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I served a couple of years. Now let's go get
Speaker 2: white Claws and have some fucking hot dogs out of Costco.
Speaker 2: Like what the fuck?
Speaker 1: No, well she had to, like I mean I mentioned
Speaker 1: at the end when she had kids. Yeah, those kids
Speaker 1: are gonna fuck. They could listen to this podcast one
Speaker 1: day and be like, Wow, that's my mom.
Speaker 2: Your mom did some bad shit, really bad shit.
Speaker 1: So this is this is interesting. The trial of Paul
Speaker 1: wouldn't start until May of nineteen ninety five, mainly due
Speaker 1: to the fact, Oh sorry, the.
Speaker 2: Fact should have leaned away from the mic. If you
Speaker 2: get a burp.
Speaker 1: I don't think I burped. It was just like a
Speaker 1: weird I don't know, a.
Speaker 2: Weird what out of body experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what it was.
Speaker 2: Death.
Speaker 1: He almost died, Okay, So mainly due to the fact
Speaker 1: that Paul had placed his lawyer Ken in a very
Speaker 1: difficult ethical situation. Oh, Paul had told Ken where to
Speaker 1: get the videotapes, or to where the videotapes were, and
Speaker 1: to get them.
Speaker 2: Oh, so he's all like, get them and destroy them
Speaker 2: for me, get rid of the evidence.
Speaker 1: Yeah, motherfucker, believing that by doing this they would never
Speaker 1: get into the hands of the prosecutors. However, Carla had
Speaker 1: made these videotapes known to the prosecutors, so eventually the
Speaker 1: pressure was too much and Ken withdrew from the case.
Speaker 1: And he still had the videotapes and he handed them
Speaker 1: over to Paul's next law John Rosen, who quickly turned
Speaker 1: them in good. So Carla's plea bargain was especially criticized
Speaker 1: by many Canadians because of this. The videotapes were withheld
Speaker 1: for seventeen months and considered critical evidence. Well no prosecutors
Speaker 1: said they would never have agreed to the plea bargain
Speaker 1: if they had seen those tapes, because she was very
Speaker 1: much so active. Ken Murray Murray, that's the lawyer, the
Speaker 1: original lawyer of Paul, was later acquitted of obstruction of
Speaker 1: justice and faced a disciplinary hearing by the Laws Society
Speaker 1: of Upper Canada.
Speaker 2: I was waiting to hear something. He was yeah, good, good.
Speaker 1: Like I mean Paul played him though, like he kind
Speaker 1: of played him because he was like wanting to defend
Speaker 1: his his what would you call that, what would you
Speaker 1: call their relafe? Yeah? I think but then if he
Speaker 1: turned those in, like he wouldn't definitely like the case
Speaker 1: would have been fucked basically, right.
Speaker 2: But he's also a human. Yeah, he's now defending what
Speaker 2: he's guaranteed to know that someone who's fucking murdered and raped.
Speaker 2: He has the evidence to show that, and he's still
Speaker 2: going to defend that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm at least glad that he's at least stepped back
Speaker 2: and passed the.
Speaker 1: Tapes on he realized, I mean, it took him a
Speaker 1: way too long, but he realized.
Speaker 2: He didn't do the right thing, but he didn't do
Speaker 2: the wrong thing. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, with the videotapes as critical pieces of evidence,
Speaker 1: Paul faced two counts of first agree murder, murder murder,
Speaker 1: two counts of aggravated sexual assault, two counts of forcible confinement,
Speaker 1: two counts of kidnapping, and one count of performing an
Speaker 1: indignity on a human body. And I'm not going to
Speaker 1: go into a lot of detail here. Yeah, please don't, well,
Speaker 1: like just what the case is.
Speaker 2: I mean, Okay, I thought you were taking talk.
Speaker 1: He's fucked we already know that with the videos and
Speaker 1: Carla testifying, the prosecutors had some very powerful evidence to
Speaker 1: convict Paul of the charges, and the defense would attack
Speaker 1: Carla's credibility with the goal of showing that she was
Speaker 1: not the victim she portrayed herself to be, but a
Speaker 1: willing participant, regardless of the degree of Carla's guilt or innocence.
Speaker 1: On September first, nineteen ninety five, Paul was convicted on
Speaker 1: all the charges against him regarding the kidnappings, rapes and
Speaker 1: murders of Leslie. Makes say it wrong again, No, but I.
Speaker 2: Was just wanting to mock you again. I was really
Speaker 2: waiting for that chance her again.
Speaker 1: So rapes and murders of Leslie and Kristen. He also
Speaker 1: faced trials and the death of Tammy and the serial
Speaker 1: rapes of the rapes of Scarborough. Sentenced to life in
Speaker 1: prison without parole for at least twenty five years. He
Speaker 1: was designated a dangerous offender, making him very unlikely to
Speaker 1: ever be released.
Speaker 2: Very unlikely.
Speaker 1: It should be well unlikely, very likely he will still
Speaker 1: in there.
Speaker 2: Good. He's fucking rotten there. He's getting sodomized by some
Speaker 2: like really big dude.
Speaker 1: Well, I didn't even put that on there. Like he
Speaker 1: was always secluded because I think isn't it that people
Speaker 1: who rape, especially like rape children basically like they don't
Speaker 1: have a fun time in prison do that?
Speaker 2: Oh, they generally end up beaten and killed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So he was always secluded, but there was odd times,
Speaker 1: like I think there was an attack on him when
Speaker 1: he was like coming back from the shower, or like
Speaker 1: a mob one time started trying to get at him.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't like rainbows in there for him good.
Speaker 1: Since being in prison, he has also admitted to even
Speaker 1: more sexual assaults of course, and there's a lengthly list
Speaker 1: of other potential victims, including a rape that occurred in Hawaii. Well,
Speaker 1: the couple was honeymoon honeymooning there, Jesus, So they raped
Speaker 1: someone while they were of honeymooning, which I think is
Speaker 1: so fucked no kidding. Paul became eligible for day parol
Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, in full parole in twenty eighteen, but
Speaker 1: he was denied good. His next parole hearing took place
Speaker 1: on June twenty second, twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2: So just a couple days ago.
Speaker 1: So this case like was just in the news. It
Speaker 1: took only one hour of deliberation, but the judge for
Speaker 1: his application was turned down. A fuck you, Paul, the
Speaker 1: judge turned his application down. As for Carla, she had
Speaker 1: to serve her full twelve years, which is good. She
Speaker 1: never did get like the parole after three years. I
Speaker 1: think because of stuff that came up with like the
Speaker 1: videos and stuff, they like realized they can probably fucked
Speaker 1: up with her. So they did make her stay the
Speaker 1: whole twelve years, which is good. But she was released
Speaker 1: from prison in two thousand and five and she now
Speaker 1: goes by the name of Leanne Borderless something like that,
Speaker 1: and is married with two children. And she keeps getting
Speaker 1: like being in places and then like being discovered. I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: so they like move around a lot. Right now, they're
Speaker 1: in Oh my gosh, saw a buried the valley field
Speaker 1: or something, and it's a city in southwestern Quebec. She
Speaker 1: didn't actually live in Canada for a period, like she
Speaker 1: was in the Caribbean and stuff. But they came back the.
Speaker 2: Caribbean or Caribbean. It's like tomato tomato.
Speaker 1: I don't know actually which one now.
Speaker 2: Some people say one, some say the other. Like pirates
Speaker 2: of the Caribbean or Pirates.
Speaker 1: Of the Caribbean, Caribbean Caribbean. I would probably say, yeah,
Speaker 1: and this is just an interesting tidbit too that might
Speaker 1: make you like, feo, Carla's better, but you know, the
Speaker 1: like psychopath checklist or the score you can get. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so Paul's were thirty five out of forty and Carla
Speaker 1: was five out of forty. Huh, I actually want to
Speaker 1: take it. What happened to my score? To high?
Speaker 2: It'd be like, holy would be surprised.
Speaker 1: What do you mean You wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker 2: You're generally really good at tests. You'd get a good score.
Speaker 1: I'd want to try to get a good score. So yeah,
Speaker 1: there you have it.
Speaker 2: Well, those people are are trash. What's her name now,
Speaker 2: Leslie or something? Which one Carla's new name, oh.
Speaker 1: Leanne Leanne. Yeah. So if there's a Leanne that you
Speaker 1: know living in southwestern Quebec, you maybe might want to
Speaker 1: ask her a couple questions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, be like do you rape those people?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean I wouldn't want her to be my neighbor.
Speaker 1: But then there was people that said that she was
Speaker 1: actually like a pretty good neighbor, like quiet, She's probably
Speaker 1: quiet as.
Speaker 2: Fuck, probably keeps to herself as best as she can,
Speaker 2: I would imagine.
Speaker 1: So you're like, I feel like your almost team Carla
Speaker 1: not being manipulated quite badly by Paul, aren't you.
Speaker 2: Oh no, she was one hundredercent kuilty. She was definitely
Speaker 2: she did it on her own free will.
Speaker 1: And you think she should have got more than twelve years?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure. I think the only way Paul
Speaker 2: really manipulated her. I'm sure she was abused to some degree,
Speaker 2: but I think the only way that he really manipulated
Speaker 2: her in the way she was a victim is she
Speaker 2: just loved him and just did what. Yeah, like she
Speaker 2: feelings is what got her in it.
Speaker 1: After being beaten and stuff. She stayed for some time
Speaker 1: like that last summer. Basically, yeah, she did divorce.
Speaker 2: Him, well, even before any beatings or abuse came, Like
Speaker 2: when they were first getting together in stuff and he
Speaker 2: first brought up the whole prospect of like fucking raping
Speaker 2: people and stuff, and she's like, oh, that's cool.
Speaker 1: I know, that's that's on cool, Like she could have
Speaker 1: ran for the hill.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's on her because that's her feet. I
Speaker 2: understand she's getting like physically abused mentally abused later on,
Speaker 2: and that's some serious trap shit that it's really hard
Speaker 2: to get out of. That's on Paul. But shit where
Speaker 2: she's just like, oh that's cool. Nah, that's on you.
Speaker 2: You are a victim there more so well not that
Speaker 2: she's not a victim of abuse, she is abuse, but yeah,
Speaker 2: getting roped in is the love factor. The honeymoon stage
Speaker 2: is what roped her in.
Speaker 1: And I mean I think more influ Like I learned
Speaker 1: so much and there's even things that I left out
Speaker 1: because I didn't want this to be like five hours long,
Speaker 1: but something that came back, Like Paul was good at
Speaker 1: charming and manipulating people even when he was in prison.
Speaker 1: At one point he almost got married to someone. Fuck
Speaker 1: like you might you could look up that article or whatever,
Speaker 1: and I don't think it actually happened. And this person
Speaker 1: was like an educated person. I mean Carlo was smart too,
Speaker 1: but like she literally believed that he was like he
Speaker 1: made her believe that he was innocent. Wow, Like so
Speaker 1: I mean he had he had some power, he had
Speaker 1: some charm to him for sure.
Speaker 2: Well he's hopefully in he rot forever and hopefully Laura Leslie,
Speaker 2: what was her fucking name again, the new one. Yes,
Speaker 2: you don't remember it either.
Speaker 1: No, because I don't care about her she is.
Speaker 2: I'm terrible with names.
Speaker 1: Will I was going to say Leanne was the only.
Speaker 2: Reason I'm wanting to say her name multiple times is
Speaker 2: because I want to fucking out her.
Speaker 1: Leanne bordialis b O R D E l A. I S.
Speaker 2: There you go, her being out. I hope that she
Speaker 2: keeps getting found out, and I hope that she has
Speaker 2: to keep moving, and I hope that she has to
Speaker 2: keep hiding.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I also don't think that she's going to
Speaker 1: ever make like another stink.
Speaker 2: She better not.
Speaker 1: I would be surprised if she ever came up again.
Speaker 2: She better fucking not. So anyway, that's that well done
Speaker 2: your first two parter.
Speaker 1: I get myself in to. I think that's why I
Speaker 1: was putting this case all getting around. Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1: It's fine.
Speaker 2: Well here, cheers for that two parter.
Speaker 1: Cheers, and I can drink my white claw ye and make.
Speaker 2: Sure you guys come back for the next episode and
Speaker 2: make sure.
Speaker 1: You stay wicked.
Speaker 2: I know