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Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist

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Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at The

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Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge.

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As always, you can email the show at radio at

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the Federalist dot com, follow us on ex at fdr LST.

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Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and

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of course to the premium version of our website as well.

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Our guest today is Hillsdale College history professor doctor Bill McLay.

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On this Independence Week, we take a closer look at

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the miracle of the Founding Generation and the founding values

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as we approach the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of

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this great Republic. Bill, thank you so much for joining

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us on this edition of the Federalist Radio.

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Speaker 2: Oh it's my pleasure.

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Speaker 1: This is I really, I really want to emphasize the

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miracle because the older I grow, the more I know,

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the more I deeply believe in the miracle of the

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Founding Generation. But you have been featured in a number

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of places, and I just watched a really good video

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starring you, and you were talking about the roots of revolution.

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You know, this stuff did not happen overnight. This miracle

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was many, many years in the making. Before we get

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to that founding generation, let's talk about their experiences, their

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parents' experiences, before we got to the revelution era.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you and thank you for your kind words

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about the video of I think one way to answer

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your question is to say that the revolution wasn't a

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sort of sudden thing. It didn't just sort of arise

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on the spur of the moment with people saying, hey,

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let's do this crazy thing. It had to do with

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the fact that their.

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Speaker 3: Parents and parents' parents had an experience, a considerable experience

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of governing themselves in the British North American colonies going

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back one hundred.

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Speaker 2: And fifty years or more before the time of the Revolution.

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I mean, you know, Jamestown sixteen oh seven, Plymouth sixteen twenty,

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to this Bay sixteen thirty. These colonies had been around

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for a long time, and they had been used to

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governing themselves. They had been used to setting up their

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own institutions, having their own way of establishing new townships,

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or how they would be ordered, how taxation would be

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carried out, and they, you know, in sixteen nineteen was

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the year that the House of Burgesses in Virginia was created.

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So you know, you can go all the way back

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to that, to institutions of self rule, self governance that

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they were accustomed to having. They did think of themselves

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as Englishmen. That didn't that didn't conflict with the idea

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that they were also governing themselves. And it's only when

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after the French and Indian War, uh, Great Britain for

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reasons that are not that that makes some sense, you know,

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there isn't there's another side to this. Uh. I'm a patriot,

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but I do have to be an honest person and

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an honest historian to say, yes, there are two sides

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to this. And and the British felt that, well, the

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colonists get all this benefit of our military might defeating

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the French uh and uh uh consolidating uh British control

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and and and and the safety of British subjects in

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the Western hemisphere. Shouldn't they be paying for some of this? Uh?

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After all, we were going hugely into.

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Speaker 1: Debt sure this which they were doubling their size of

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debt because of this war and uh and and.

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Speaker 4: Think about the debt at the time.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, so so and and there had been and

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very little interest up until that time in the idea

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of really consolidating the empire into something that was a

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unitary character. So this was not you know, Edmund Burgh

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famously said that the colonies were governed by according to

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the principle of salutary neglect. Salutary meetings were favorable, so

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the neglect was a good thing and let them do

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their own thing, if I could use the idiom of

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the eighteenth century. So this was very good for economic development.

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It meant that enterprise was encouraged because people were able

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to without regulation under mercantilists or other kinds of economic

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concerns from the central power, they could do They could

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be creative and inventive and responsive to market needs and demands.

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So it was good in most ways that this salutary

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neglect existed. There's another saying I like from a historian

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who said that the British Empire was created in a

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fit of absence of mind, and that's it's a humorous

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way to put it, very British, but in fact there's

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something to it that if you look at the Spanish

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and the French, the main competitors, you know, there were others,

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the Portuguese and so on, but the main colonial European

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powers they were very Spanish, especially very intent that their

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colonial enterprises would serve the interests of the mother country.

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And in the case of Spain, that meant, you know,

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precious metals, mining, extracting precious metals and bringing them back

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to plunt them in the treasury. Since it was believed

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that the wealth of a nation was measured by is

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it's literal wealth in precious metals, so they bring it.

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The English after the seventeen hundreds, we can speak of

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them as the British had a different, different take. It

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was much more a matter of giving charters to individuals

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or groups that had an idea they wanted to pursue.

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The Puritans wanted religious liberty, and it was not such

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a bad deal to get them out of their hair

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in England. So the Puritan colonies of the North, the

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Brigina New Colony, was really a group of adventurers that

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were seeking gold and silver for themselves, not as part

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of a national project. However, there was not a strong

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mercantileist tendency and in the makeup of the English government,

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so and and then you know William Penn comes to

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He's a guy who has a certain kind of idea.

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Oglethorpe has a certain idea about Georgia. Uh, Maryland. It

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was essentially to be a colony for Catholics and again

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getting getting out of the hair of the mother country.

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And so it was there was no big plan, there

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was no overall plan. It was Friedrich Hayek must have

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been pleased with this. There was a plan not to

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have a plan. So, uh, that is a long winded

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way of answering your question that what what's the background

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of this background was that this is somewhat unique situation

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arose in the British North American colonies where you had

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people who had the benefit of English law, English customs,

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and European intellectual formation, including their religion which was by

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and large form of Reformed Protestantism with some exceptions, and

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they had this relatively less populated, less developed area to

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test these things eyed out in. So this was ongoing

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for one hundred and fifty years and then along comes

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the Parliament, really more the Parliament than the King, saying

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you know, we're going to change things. We're going to

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we're going to are going to redo this thing where

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and uh uh, they're they're often their tactics were kind

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of ham handed and even stupid, but their their objectives

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was not completely absurd. That's as far as I'll go

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as an American patriot. They were perfectly justified. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

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Your argument is that, you know, you have a mother

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country that has spent a great deal of its treasure

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protecting the colonists at this time. This is their argument,

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and then ultimately somebody is going to have to pay

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for it. At this point, England is dealing with, you know,

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the effects of that as the economic depression and all

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of these kinds of things, and there are a lot

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of people in the mother countries saying, hey, let's take

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a look at these freeloaders exactly Americas, and they're going

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to have to start paying the bill here. I mean,

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that's their argument, isn't it. Yeah Yeah, And you know,

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and I think in a different moment in time, it

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might have been possible to administer the British Empire in

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this way. It might have been possible in our era

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to have a parliament that would include among its members

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people who were not represented the colonies, who were actually

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resident in them.

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Speaker 4: Sure they could jump on a zoom call.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that's right, just just what we're doing

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right now.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and.

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Speaker 2: I think around Washington, d C. An awful lot of

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business goes on with people zooming rather than meeting in person.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely right, No, but it was the time.

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Speaker 2: That it was. You know, transatlantic travel was possible, but

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difficult and time and time consuming.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 2: You know, there wasn't an easy way that to make

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that distance shrink. And when you know, I've found this

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even with institutions. I once taught it at Tulane University,

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and Tulane had a coordinate women's college, Newcombe College, which

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had in effect been been it has been abolished I

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think now completely, but it but it had its own

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faculty and the the uh uh that that designation stuck

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even when the thing collapsed, and when we tried to

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combine faculties, it was very difficult because it was like

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a different culture in Newcombe College from Tulane College. And

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to multiply that by a zillion to arrive at how

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the different cultures of the North American colonies, how different

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they were from Britain, from England Britain, and that difference

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was was bound to widen because, as many people, including

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Benjamin Franklin, pointed out, the colonies were growing massively on

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the scale that was soon dwarf the population of the

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mother country and would dwarf it in terms of economic

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output too, potentially. So there is a kind of factor

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here just looking back, standing back from it, and not

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asking who was right and who was wrong in this,

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but that over time the separation was going to happen.

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It seems almost inevitable, but the circumstances under which it

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occurs would be would be all important. So that's kind

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of kind of the way it works out, is that

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there is this separation, and Jefferson makes reference to this

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in the Declaration of Independence. You know, in the course

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of human events, these things happen when one body of

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people need to separate and make their own way. So

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he's appealing to that notion that, you know, maybe the

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time has come that this really is ungovernable from across

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the seas.

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Speaker 4: That's it, though, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: That's really it Because when we get to that point

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nearly two hundred and fifty years ago, we have what

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is termed in family law or marital law, irreconcilable differences. Yes, yeah,

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but we do not have an amicable split. And so

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I'm thinking about all that you said, all that has

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come before. You have this perfect, perfect miracle laboratory. That

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is the laboratory, a perfect laboratory for a constitutional republic.

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And maybe certainly the denizens of this land don't know

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that they're in the middle of it, but they're growing

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more and more aware that they can no longer be

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part of the mother country. And so we get to

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this great divorce and then take us through those early days.

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Because this was not by any means a guarantee. That

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declaration was very bold, but we didn't have a lot

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to back up that bold.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, it meant but for sure, And let

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me say one thing that sort of before your question

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is that the declaration was bold, but was also came

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at the conclusion of a long process of a change

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of heart. You know it is you know. John Adams

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famously said that the revolution occurred in the arts and

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minds of the people before the events of July seventeen

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seventy six, and that's that it took basically from seventeen

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sixty three, the end of the French and Indian War,

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maybe beginning really with seventeen sixty five in Earnest, all

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the way to eleven years later, well ten years later

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for war to breakout with Lexington and conquered. But it

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took all that time for a critical mass of patriots

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who said, we've got to go it alone. Now we

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are a part enough and together enough to do that.

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We're apart from England enough, we're together as Americans enough.

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Because you have to think in this recently is the

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seventeen sixties for them that recently their primary identity is

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of Englishmen, not Americans, or perhaps Virginians or Pennsylvanians or

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New Yorkers or whatever, but not as Americans. And the

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whole process of forging a national consciousness is some of

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what goes on in that period. You have all kinds

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of things that mediate that, like the Committees of Correspondence,

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in which sort of elite figures in the various colonies

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kind of say hey, here's you all know what's going

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on here. And so there's a development of a kind

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of information network that is an important part of forging

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a national unity national consciousness. So all of that had

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to have and all that had to coalesce, and you

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even have figures like John Dickenson. He's a very very

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prominent example of this, who who were you know, very

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much with with the patriotic cause, but would not sign

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the declaration because the declaration, it was just went too

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far and it was He's very beautiful and eloquent in

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his saying, you know what, what if we don't pull

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this off? You know what if when we really lacked

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the strength the unity to do it, and we're up

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against the biggest military power in the world, maybe the

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world had ever seen. This is an audacious thing. Of course,

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the country was already at war after Lexington and conquered

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in April of seventeen seventy five, but there were people

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who understandably drew back from the oldness of the declaration.

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So you're absolutely right to stress that man, that it

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is a bold act. But it also comes after, you know,

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more or less a dozen years of trying to figure

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out what the way forward, and with the British constantly

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making unenforceable efforts to impinge on the self rule that

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the colonists had formerly enjoyed. So it's a gradual process.

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But by the time, you know, the interesting thing to

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me is why it took so long after lexing and

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conquered for the declaration to appear. It's what fifteen months

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from between April seventeen seventy five and July seventeen seventy six,

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And that just says this took some time to coalesce.

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And even so, as you know, there were many Americans

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who wouldn't who were royalists, who wouldn't go that route,

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and many of them we left the country somewhere absolutely

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persecuted and murdered. You know, it was an ugly business.

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So I mean, was not a blood list on that

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on the domestic side either. Our revolution.

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Speaker 5: Is financial independence, like dieting or losing weight. The Watch

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Dot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day

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Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy

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00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,920
and how it affects your wallet. Being financially independent is simple,

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00:20:36,039 --> 00:20:38,480
but it's not easy. The number one rule is you've

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00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,599
got to let materialism go to the wayside. Don't let

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spending money or shopping be your favorite pastime. Whether it's

267
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,119
happening in DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting

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you financially.

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Speaker 4: Be informed.

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Speaker 5: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris

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Markowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: No, there was so much at stake. I mean, you

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can understand those who were reluctant first and foremost, their

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identities were forged by being part of the crown, being

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part of the mother country. All of that said, we

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get into some people who say enough is enough. We

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get into this founding generation and what makes them what

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they are. Our guest today is Hillsdale College history professor

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doctor Bill McLay. On this Independence Week we take a

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closer look at the miracle of the Founding Generation and

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founding values as we approached the two hundred and fiftieth

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anniversary of this great Republic. Bill, who were these folks?

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I mean, and we know we know, of course the

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biggest players in history, the Benjamin Franklins, the George Washington's,

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the Thomas Jeffersons, but there were many, many more obviously

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in this Founding generation. It again, I know I've said

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this many times, with this miracle of all of these

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people coming together for this cause, this unifying cause, in

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a very very difficult struggle.

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Speaker 2: Well, you won't get any argument from me for the

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use of miracle of the term miracle because it is

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miraculous that we had. It's not necessarily a miracle that

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the situation presented itself, sure of the need to separate,

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but what there are all sorts of ways of doing it,

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and we did it in a way that in retrospect

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you almost have to the more you study it in

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comparative history, look at the way other countries have gone,

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you almost are driven, maybe against your will, to see

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the hand of providence in it, because it is so

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much that could have gone otherwise. But to begin with,

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and really directly to your question, who were these people?

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They were a remarkable bunch. They were very young. The

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you know, the average age of I should have that

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in my head, but it's the average age was in

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the forties, their forties, you know people, I mean, we

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barely think of people being adults at the age of forty. Now.

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They were very mature.

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Speaker 1: My wife barely thinks of me as that, and I'm

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fifty three years old.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, well, I think I think you're just I

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think you're doing great.

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Speaker 4: But I think.

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Speaker 2: And I'm more than that. I think I am as

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mature as I'm ever going to be. But all this

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can be caught I know. So they were well educated,

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but they had something else that mere education cannot necessarily impart,

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and that is prudence. They had the virtue of prudence.

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They were, they were people, They were wise, wise beyond

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their years. They they were, they were interested in you.

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Alexander Hamilton famously in the first number of the Federalist Papers,

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says that this is really a test of whether it's possible.

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And he didn't mean it just for Americans. He meant

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it for everybody at all times. It was possible to

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create a nation based on reflection and choice or be

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dependent on accident and force. And that really states it

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very well. Could they manage to create rationally create a

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nation that sort of accorded with everything they knew about history,

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about the way that republics tended to be fragile, tended

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to fall apart in the course of time. Could they

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use history to defeat history? Could they? And that depended.

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That depends on the power of imagination. That's not just

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something you learn in school books, as I learned all

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the time. You know, you can have lots of wonderful ideas,

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but the way the sense of how those ideas can

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shape reality, You know, in a way that's feasible and enduring.

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That's another sense altogether. You know, there's a saying variously

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attributed that politics is the art of the possible. And

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I love that saying because it has two meanings. It's

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not just as with the big beautiful bill that we're

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all hearing about, what can we stitch together that can pass? Right? Uh,

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It's also but there's a flip side to that. It

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is the art what what is possible? Uh, the art

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the possible. It possible may go beyond uh the usual,

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the customary, the we've always done it that way. So

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they had both senses of that art of the possible

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working for them.

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Speaker 1: But this was this was the age of reason. And

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these are men and women I will tell you. I

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think of the Adamses and absolutely and exactly yes, and

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and that particularly in Massachusetts, that proud tradition of intellectual

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uh drive that came out of there and and reason

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this how so that's I guess my question. How much

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of these founding fathers and mothers were shaped by the

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Age of Reason?

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Speaker 2: Oh, well, that's a great question, and I think the

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answer is they were. They highly shaped, but not exclusively

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shaped by it, which is actually, the most reasonable way

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to use reason is to understand that there's more. As

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Pascal says, the heart has its reasons that reason does

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not know. And they took into account all the ways

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that you can devise machinery of government to perform certain functions,

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all the ways you can perfect the organizational chart. But

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they also understood how things go astray, how the ambitiousness

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of the kind of people who want to be involved

365
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in politics can often get in the way of there

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being leaders who lead with the good good of the

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public in mind. I'll tell you one thing they had

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going for them. You've already mentioned his name, George Washington.

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I mean, as I get older, I had my esteem

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for George Washington has arisen. It's almost at Titanic levels

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now because I and I don't mean the ship Titanic

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is a mountainous lessing because you look at all the

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things he did and all the ways that he restrained

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his ego for the sake of the nation. He you know,

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when he became president, and even before that, he lived

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his whole life this way, that as if others were

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watching him and looking for the example that he set.

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This was true in his military career, It was true

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at the Constitutional Convention, it was true when he was

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president that he was very conscious of it and wrote

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about it. How you know, he was he felt that

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all the eyes of the world were upon him, and

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because he knew, everything he did was set a precedent.

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Speaker 1: So hem he was the ultimate leader by example, wasn't he?

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Speaker 2: Yes? And I think it's very important that we understand

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that the Constitution is not, as one of the framers,

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that a machine that would run of itself, and it

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had to be actuated and guided by statesmen, that is,

389
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and a statesman is not just a politician. A statesman

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as someone who who is really concerned with the well

391
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being of the state over the long haul, over his

392
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own or her own political reputation or success. And Washington

393
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he was enormously successful, but he also was He had

394
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this sort of Christian stone about him that caused him

395
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to always put the needs of the nation first in

396
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his mind. I mean, he longed repeatedly to just retire,

397
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I've done enough, and to hire to his beautiful estate

398
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at Mount Vernon. But there was this awareness that the

399
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country needed him. We were born. Even coming out of

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the Constitutional Convention, almost immediately things split up into what

401
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became parties and factions. The very thing that James Madison

402
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,839
warned against and the one thing everybody agreed about, just

403
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,839
about everybody, was the greatness of George Washington and his authority,

404
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which is something that he conveyed in his person. You know,

405
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he was a big man, broadsholder, very imposing looking fellow,

406
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but his behavior was even more remarkable. I think it's

407
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a very noble individual in the very best sense of

408
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the world.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, I think of that story while the war is

410
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being fought, and again, as you say, George Washington is

411
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not ancient by any means, but he is. He is deemed,

412
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you know, so widely respected through the colonies and through

413
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his army. But you have a revolt inside the revolution

414
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going on because things are very bad as a certain

415
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point in this war, this struggle for independence, and there's

416
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this moment where he pulls out his glasses, he has

417
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to use his glasses to read something, and there's not

418
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a dry eye in the room of you know, his commanders,

419
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his subordinates, some of them thinking we've had enough of

420
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this war. Now we're going to turn away from it.

421
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And they look at him and they see the ravages

422
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of war and time. Even though this is you know,

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this is a guy who is pristine looking at all

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of these the majestic on a horse, you know, like

425
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no other.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

427
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Speaker 4: Yet he puts his glasses.

428
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Speaker 1: On and you could and they see, you know, the

429
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,440
the impact of the war on him in his eyes,

430
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and that it's aged him. And there is a moment

431
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where they just kind of take part in that moment

432
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of what George Washington means not only to the country

433
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but to them.

434
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Speaker 2: Yes, no, there are a number of moments like that

435
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,640
with him and and and something else I've just mentioned

436
00:32:46,799 --> 00:32:51,839
during the the terrible times where they kind in all army,

437
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,559
uh just seemed on the verge of dissolution, which was

438
00:32:55,599 --> 00:32:58,599
actually quite often. This is one of the things I

439
00:32:58,599 --> 00:33:03,759
didn't know a lot about earlier on and additional reading

440
00:33:03,799 --> 00:33:06,440
filled it in for me. And I'm reading a lot

441
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,640
about the Revolutionary War now because we're entering into that period,

442
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the toward fiftieth of that period is you know, he

443
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he would wake up in the morning and kind of what,

444
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you know, what, well, how many people have defected today?

445
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How much of an army do we have left? And

446
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they and of course they went through you know, everybody

447
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knows about Valley Forge, and there there were several such

448
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terrible times, winter, terrible cold, smallpox, all kinds of problems,

449
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and on at least two occasions that I know of.

450
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He addressed this by having a play put on, and

451
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the play was Joseph Addison's play Cato, which was about

452
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the great Roman Cato, who was a great defender of

453
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the republic. Unsuccessful, I might add, I mean we did,

454
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we did get the romance pireafterol, but a person of

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great nobility who kind of goes down fighting for the good,

456
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the true of the noble, for the republic. And it

457
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tells you something about not just George Washington, but his

458
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:20,039
troops that they were inspired by this. You know, the

459
00:34:20,079 --> 00:34:22,599
common sense thing would be, what a downer? Why are

460
00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:25,719
you going to show us this? Everything we're doing is

461
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,360
for nothing? Not the reaction, And he knew it wouldn't

462
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be the reaction. He knew his men, but they're elevated.

463
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When you have a leader like that that elevates you,

464
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it elevates your own sentiments. And he had that capacity

465
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so that when he died in seventeen ninety nine, right

466
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before the election of eighteen hundred which was shaping up

467
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:59,960
to be just a horrible, divisive, beyond belief election eighteen hundred.

468
00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:02,960
I mean, this is just a little over a decade

469
00:35:03,519 --> 00:35:06,719
after the adoption of the Constitution. The things seemed to

470
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be going down in Plainton.

471
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Speaker 4: And we already feel like they're in peril well.

472
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Speaker 2: Of national unity. What's going to happen? Well, it turned

473
00:35:14,519 --> 00:35:20,199
out all right. But he had been the glue holding

474
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the nation together. I think that that's maybe a bit

475
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,320
of an exaggeration, but.

476
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Speaker 1: I think I don't think it is. Though I don't

477
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,880
I don't think it is an exaggeration. I think he

478
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,079
is the glue, among some others Benjamin Franklin. But here

479
00:35:34,119 --> 00:35:37,559
he is, you know, at the the as you said,

480
00:35:38,039 --> 00:35:41,960
every time, he just wants to go back to his

481
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,719
his estate, his farms, his interest, his life. And it's

482
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,360
almost like the Godfather. Every time I think I'm out,

483
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,440
they all be back in. Right.

484
00:35:51,639 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 4: And so there we have it.

485
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,679
Speaker 1: And you know, as he's called back to Philadelphia, because

486
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,199
you know, we we have after a revolutionary war, we

487
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:08,119
have an independent number of states, a confederacy, but we

488
00:36:08,199 --> 00:36:12,679
don't have a country. And so here we are in

489
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:19,519
eighteen eighty seven and he is back again running the show,

490
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:25,480
and I want to ask you all of what he experienced,

491
00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:30,800
what America experienced during that war time, that very difficult time,

492
00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:35,599
and all the things we talked about before this laboratory

493
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:42,639
of greatness. How much did that inform that summer of

494
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,440
eight very hot summer in portions of it of seventeen

495
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:49,079
eighty seven.

496
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 2: Well, I think very much so. And I'm glad you've

497
00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:55,400
given me an opportunity to say something I very much

498
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,199
wanted to say with this is the Twitter fiftieth anniversary

499
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,400
were approaching of the Declaration of Independence. But the Declaration

500
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,960
of Independence, as important as it is, as great as

501
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,039
it is, as wonderful and world changing a document as

502
00:37:11,079 --> 00:37:15,840
it is, it didn't create a nation. It didn't create

503
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,920
what it did. Did We created a country in a way,

504
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,639
the the the the the and the act of fighting

505
00:37:23,679 --> 00:37:27,679
the war, the shared experience of the war, the shared

506
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:34,199
suffering of the war did help to create a national sentiment.

507
00:37:35,079 --> 00:37:39,000
But that's different than having a government. And we've bloundered around, frankly,

508
00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:43,000
because if you look at the declaration, it ends with

509
00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:51,320
saying these these colonies are should be free and independent states. Well,

510
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,599
you know there's a there's a little trick going on

511
00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:58,199
in that formulation. I mean, they're unified, but they're free

512
00:37:58,199 --> 00:38:01,320
and independent. In what way are they unified? In what

513
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,519
way are they independent? I mean they're not just independent

514
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,880
of Britain. Are they independent of one another? Also, that's

515
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:14,239
not laid out, and that's because it had to be

516
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:21,559
worked out, and the articles of a Confederation were clearly inadequate.

517
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:29,360
Although that's the first version of the Constitution, which is

518
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,480
sort of in effect through the war, even though it

519
00:38:32,519 --> 00:38:37,679
was not ratified for most of that time. But it

520
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:42,719
became very clear in the seventeen eighties that, especially in

521
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,519
the middle years of the seventeen eighties, that there had

522
00:38:46,599 --> 00:38:51,800
needed to be a more vigorous national element in the

523
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,599
national Constitution. There needed to be a stronger what we

524
00:38:54,599 --> 00:39:00,159
would say called federal element. In Washington, by the way,

525
00:39:00,159 --> 00:39:02,239
I mean, when you really see the historical accounts, it's

526
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,400
really when there were some rebellions in various places, including

527
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,639
western Massachusetts and and Washington said, my goodness, work is

528
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,800
kind of falling apart, aren't we And he said that

529
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,679
we've we've thought too well of human nature. We we

530
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:22,960
need we need a stronger coercive force at the center

531
00:39:23,039 --> 00:39:26,800
of things, not to be coercive in an arbitrary way,

532
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,679
but we need to have the power in the federal

533
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,280
hands of the federal government to do certain things together, like

534
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,440
defend our borders. And that was really an issue at

535
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:43,440
the time. So he changed his mind. That was like, okay,

536
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:48,320
now we now we run with it. Hamilton, uh and Madison,

537
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,880
who were the principal you know, instigators, not the only ones,

538
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:58,480
but ran with it. So Washington having Washington's impromator uh

539
00:39:58,800 --> 00:39:59,880
made a big difference.

540
00:40:00,159 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

541
00:40:02,079 --> 00:40:06,039
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And he's he'sily unifying force with all of this

542
00:40:06,159 --> 00:40:08,679
disorder that's coming on. And when he writes in.

543
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 2: Philadelphia, when in Philadelphia he was mostly silent. He presided

544
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,480
over the convention, but he had very little to say

545
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:22,239
absolu and he was He left that to the genius

546
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:26,800
of James Madison, uh and and a few others uh and,

547
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:33,760
And he understood that conflicts needed to play out, you know, Washington,

548
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,800
when he became president, he showed this ability too. He

549
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:42,039
brought Hamilton and Jefferson both into his administration, understanding that

550
00:40:42,119 --> 00:40:47,719
they both represented aspects of this new country that you

551
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,519
could not ignore, even if they were in some ways

552
00:40:50,639 --> 00:40:54,599
clashing with one another, and that's part of his political genius.

553
00:40:54,639 --> 00:40:58,559
He didn't. He mainly came down on Hamilton's side, truth

554
00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:04,079
be told, but he didn't make the effort to give

555
00:41:04,159 --> 00:41:10,440
the Jeffersonian voice a place in his administration because.

556
00:41:10,159 --> 00:41:15,159
Speaker 1: He knew that they made very compelling arguments and we're

557
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:19,000
true patriots and all of that. I think there's one

558
00:41:19,119 --> 00:41:23,480
president who did that arguably as well or nearly as well,

559
00:41:23,559 --> 00:41:25,639
and that of course, was Abraham Lincoln.

560
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,079
Speaker 2: You think the.

561
00:41:28,639 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 1: Team of rivals, certainly, I want to take a look

562
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,960
at where we stand today, how far we've come, or

563
00:41:37,039 --> 00:41:41,599
maybe the argument is how far we are sliding back.

564
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,159
I know it feels that way sometimes. But what do

565
00:41:45,199 --> 00:41:53,159
you think these geniuses, this exceptional founding generation would think

566
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:59,519
of today's republic that they created, that they worked for,

567
00:42:00,599 --> 00:42:03,119
led for, died for so long ago.

568
00:42:04,519 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's so hard to know, but it's it's

569
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:14,599
an inevitable and irresistible question to ask. And I think

570
00:42:15,159 --> 00:42:21,199
that it's just so hard to say, But I think

571
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:26,000
that that they some of them, would just be appalled

572
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:33,039
at the size our world spanning ambitions. You know, they

573
00:42:33,039 --> 00:42:36,119
would look at even some of the things we are

574
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,159
so proud of like the day our you know, our

575
00:42:41,159 --> 00:42:44,119
achievement in the Second World War and say, oh, we

576
00:42:44,159 --> 00:42:48,559
had no business doing that, and uh So leaving aside

577
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,960
all that, it's it's I like to talk about it

578
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:57,480
this way, is that you know, there's history, or institutional

579
00:42:57,559 --> 00:43:02,639
history can have. Uh there's sort of specific things that

580
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:07,119
it deals with, but under an underlying algebra of of

581
00:43:08,119 --> 00:43:14,039
our constitution. And then the underlying algebra is that the

582
00:43:14,079 --> 00:43:19,039
only way to keep the government honest is to have

583
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:25,079
conflicting countervailing forces within it, checks and balances, separation of power.

584
00:43:25,159 --> 00:43:30,239
So all of these things are constantly being tested. I mean,

585
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,480
the idea that that we the constitution is failing because

586
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:38,880
we have so much conflict, that's that's just wrong. The

587
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,840
conflict is a sign that the constitution is working. Now,

588
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,719
that doesn't mean the results are always going to be

589
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,280
perfect just because the conflict is in play, but that

590
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:55,440
conflict is one of the main features of our constitution.

591
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,119
That algebra I think is held even as the numbers

592
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,960
have of very the variable so you plug into the formulas.

593
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,280
So I think Madison, for example, although Madison at the

594
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,599
end of his life was very depressed about he thought

595
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,400
the whole thing had kind of come a cropper. And

596
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:19,360
but you know, that's that's that's we mortals are only

597
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,360
given so much to see, and you come to the

598
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,480
end of a great project and it hasn't turned out

599
00:44:26,559 --> 00:44:31,039
exactly as you'd envision. You're you're bound to get down

600
00:44:31,039 --> 00:44:33,880
in the mouth about it. But I think from our

601
00:44:34,039 --> 00:44:37,719
point of view, which they didn't, they could not have had.

602
00:44:38,679 --> 00:44:42,079
But from our point of view, it's it's still a

603
00:44:42,119 --> 00:44:45,400
republican if we can keep it, and some of it

604
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,239
we've lost, I think, and I can't avoid being a

605
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:54,119
little bit partisan here in that. I think the the

606
00:44:54,159 --> 00:44:58,480
administrative state as there is in really over the course

607
00:44:58,519 --> 00:45:04,079
of the twentieth century that has taken decisions that really

608
00:45:04,079 --> 00:45:07,079
ought to be decided in the political realm out of

609
00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:12,679
that realm and given it to unelected and largely unaccountable

610
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:19,079
administrators in executive branch agencies. That's something I think we're

611
00:45:19,079 --> 00:45:21,679
in the process of reversing that. Supreme Courts made some

612
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:26,679
very good decisions lately about that, the Chevron deference case,

613
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:33,800
for example. But there's a lot that everything is always perilous.

614
00:45:34,119 --> 00:45:39,920
Life is perilous, No solution is permanent, except death, and

615
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:44,199
we don't want that. So I think the fact that

616
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:52,400
we're struggling and times despairing of our form of government

617
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:57,800
is not dispositive. It doesn't indicate that it really is dying.

618
00:45:58,159 --> 00:46:03,280
It's we get tired, get tired of wrangling. I don't

619
00:46:03,559 --> 00:46:05,239
know about you. I'm so sick of hearing about the

620
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:13,760
big beautiful bill that and especially it's it's somewhat hard

621
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:18,679
to see virtues, uh, and it's not easy to miss

622
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:26,239
vices that you wonder. You feel tempted at times to say, oh,

623
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:30,679
wouldn't it be great we just had a sort of benevolent,

624
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,880
strong strong man that would come and say that, you know,

625
00:46:34,119 --> 00:46:36,599
enough of this congressional stuff. We're just going to do it.

626
00:46:36,639 --> 00:46:39,440
This is how we're going to do it. I think

627
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,960
a lot of people get tired, get tired of the

628
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:53,760
of the the hyperbolic rhetoric of democracy. And there's a

629
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,920
lot we can do to improve the character of our

630
00:46:57,039 --> 00:47:03,679
life as a republic, as a democracy. But I think

631
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:09,519
I think that a sort of a Madison in a

632
00:47:09,559 --> 00:47:13,159
good mood looking back at and saying, you know, this

633
00:47:13,199 --> 00:47:16,960
has done pretty well. It's still going after what almost

634
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:23,840
two hundred and forty plus years, so let's keep it going.

635
00:47:25,519 --> 00:47:28,920
It is the world's oldest. We think of ourselves as

636
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,159
a young country, and I'm glad we do. I hope

637
00:47:32,159 --> 00:47:35,199
we always think of ourselves as a young country. But

638
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:41,239
we aren't. We have the world's oldest, continuously functioning constitution,

639
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:46,920
and it's very bound up in our national identity in

640
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:53,079
a way that let's say, the French to have an

641
00:47:53,119 --> 00:47:58,079
identity as a Frenchman even before all the immigration has

642
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,800
kind of shifted that around. But you know, you were

643
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:09,079
embracing a past that includes feudalism, that includes the great dynasties,

644
00:48:09,119 --> 00:48:12,960
you know, Louis the fourteenth, the absolutism of that period,

645
00:48:14,679 --> 00:48:23,280
the French Revolution, they various French republics and empires of

646
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,920
the nineteenth century. All that's part of your history, Americans.

647
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,079
All we've got is the Constitution and a little bit

648
00:48:31,079 --> 00:48:34,639
of the Articles of Confederation. It's a sort of prologue,

649
00:48:35,159 --> 00:48:39,440
but that we have never been in any serious way

650
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,760
the United States of America without the Constitution being our

651
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:49,719
fundamental charter. And that's an amazing thing. And it's one

652
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,400
of the reasons why I get very across with people

653
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,159
who just sort of blithely talk about replacing the Constitution.

654
00:48:59,239 --> 00:48:59,639
Speaker 4: It is.

655
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 2: It's something that's now has the status not just of

656
00:49:04,519 --> 00:49:10,679
being a product of reason, as you said, but a tradition,

657
00:49:12,039 --> 00:49:16,639
something that's sort of worked its way into our national character.

658
00:49:17,199 --> 00:49:22,280
And we'd be better off instead of junking the Constitution

659
00:49:22,599 --> 00:49:28,440
and creating something to conform with our national temperament at

660
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,159
the moment, we'd be much better off conforming our national

661
00:49:32,199 --> 00:49:39,280
temperament to the Constitution, to the idea, for example, that

662
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,840
civic education begins and ends with the notion that there's

663
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,920
always such a thing as the loyal opposition that you

664
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:54,000
must listen to, that you must respond to. That there's

665
00:49:54,079 --> 00:49:58,960
no kind of the science is settled about issues. The

666
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:03,400
science has never said about political issues. And you don't

667
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:08,320
have a vibrant political society unless those issues can come

668
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,440
up again and again and again. So there needs to

669
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:17,199
be a restoration of the idea of the loyal opposition,

670
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:21,800
of that that's really the essential element of the two

671
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:27,920
party system, and of a kind of respect for the

672
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:34,559
public realm, the public arena, the place where ideas about

673
00:50:34,639 --> 00:50:39,639
politics get tossed around. And I'm not asking for something

674
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:45,920
simon pure or sanitized I don't think that's realistic, but

675
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:51,840
something where there's a kind of where there are arenas

676
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,920
in which there's real give and take with people who

677
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:59,079
recognize and respect the right of one another to have

678
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:04,559
arguments and positions, and we're losing that. We're losing that

679
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:10,519
in all sorts of ways. And I don't think all

680
00:51:10,559 --> 00:51:13,559
sides are equally guilty, but I think all sides are

681
00:51:14,119 --> 00:51:16,559
guilty in some way or another of a failing to

682
00:51:16,639 --> 00:51:20,880
respect that. So there's a whole set of there's a

683
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,880
big agenda for the next I'd like to see this

684
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:31,440
happen of the next twelve years or so, maybe more

685
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:36,000
than that, to re educate the nation about about the Founding,

686
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:42,400
about the Founding, it's principles, and the underlying behaviors, which

687
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,079
I don't think we give enough attention to. It's great

688
00:51:46,079 --> 00:51:49,599
to study the Declaration of Constitution, built rights, but it's

689
00:51:49,599 --> 00:51:53,880
even better to inculcate in the young, to use our

690
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,440
schools to indicate, inculcate to the young these habits of

691
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:02,519
the heart that are essential to the conduct of a

692
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:08,719
republican society, of a civilized democracy. And we're not going

693
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:10,639
to have it much longer if we don't begin to

694
00:52:10,639 --> 00:52:11,519
cultivate that.

695
00:52:11,639 --> 00:52:14,679
Speaker 1: So I couldn't Yeah, I couldn't agree. I couldn't agree

696
00:52:14,679 --> 00:52:17,719
with you more. And I think you know that's the problem.

697
00:52:18,519 --> 00:52:20,639
There are there are there are many problems that we're

698
00:52:20,679 --> 00:52:25,000
all facing. But the problem with our republic two hundred

699
00:52:25,039 --> 00:52:28,599
and fifty years on is that we have forgotten that

700
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:33,760
faith that is at the core of this Republic, this constitution,

701
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:41,199
this America, that Lincoln rightly called the last best hope

702
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,679
of Earth, and it remains that and if we want

703
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:46,760
it to remain that we have to, I think, do

704
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:48,280
exactly what you talked about.

705
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:49,800
Speaker 4: We have to get.

706
00:52:49,599 --> 00:52:56,679
Speaker 1: Back to the miracle that created this country, this republic,

707
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:02,039
and the miraculous found who did so. And I so

708
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:06,639
very much appreciate your time today in taking us back

709
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,079
and reminding us of how we got here.

710
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:15,519
Speaker 2: Well thank you for having me. And it's really hardening

711
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:19,400
to talk about these things because these are things that

712
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:23,679
actually happened. They're not just pipe dreams. They happened. And

713
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:29,000
what has happened once can happen again or can be renewed.

714
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,679
So let's hope that we can continue down that path.

715
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,280
Because you know, one last comment, you know a lot

716
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:40,639
of people say that Constitution and even the declaration that

717
00:53:40,679 --> 00:53:44,599
these are eighteenth century documents and we live in the

718
00:53:44,599 --> 00:53:50,320
twenty first century. I've heard that, and therefore these eighteenth

719
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:55,119
century dogments are outmoded and we need to devise new things. Well,

720
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:59,599
you know what's out moded are the ideas that the great,

721
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:04,960
bright and shining progressive ideas of the twentieth century, The

722
00:54:05,039 --> 00:54:08,519
idea of the administrative state, the idea that we can

723
00:54:08,559 --> 00:54:12,159
have government by experts that suld that will short circuit

724
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:19,719
all the messiness of democracy and of contending parties. No

725
00:54:21,559 --> 00:54:25,719
what what Madison and the others at Philadelphia recognized that

726
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,679
you're always going to have contending parties. That's the nature

727
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:32,960
of human life. And and by the way, part of

728
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:37,519
their faith was a Christian belief that we are falling creatures.

729
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:38,679
Speaker 4: Absolutely we are.

730
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,679
Speaker 2: We are, we are not Our reason is great stuff,

731
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:50,239
but it's it's without grace, without uh a faith in UH,

732
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:56,000
in a God that forgives us despite our our impediments,

733
00:54:56,039 --> 00:54:59,360
but that that we need to recognize those impediments. So

734
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:05,639
as we without that but that kind of leaven, things

735
00:55:06,159 --> 00:55:08,199
are not going to work out very well for us.

736
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:13,119
So there's a kind of modesty about human nature that

737
00:55:13,159 --> 00:55:16,199
we need to have too. Human nature can't be perfected,

738
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:22,639
but it can be contained and made to work for good.

739
00:55:23,519 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 1: Those are the timeless things, and that is what is

740
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:31,519
the core of the Founding Generation in what they wrought.

741
00:55:32,039 --> 00:55:36,159
Thanks to my guest today, Hillsdale College History Professor, doctor

742
00:55:36,199 --> 00:55:38,920
Bill McLay, you've been listening to another edition of The

743
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:42,920
Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittles, Senior elections correspondent at

744
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,280
the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until then,

745
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,599
stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the frame