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<v Speaker 1>Well, hello, hello, and welcome back to another exciting episode

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<v Speaker 1>of JavaScript Jabber. This is actually a continuation from the

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<v Speaker 1>episode that you may have heard last week or I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know how this is going to get cut, but

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<v Speaker 1>this is actually we're still here together right now. I've

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<v Speaker 1>got Kyle Simpson on the line, and while we were

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<v Speaker 1>doing our warm up talk before the podcast, we got

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<v Speaker 1>into something something spicy, and so we're gonna we're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>cover that topic as well. So anyway, welcome back. I

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<v Speaker 1>am a j o'nial, I am your host, and this

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<v Speaker 1>yo yo yo coming at you live from the shed

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<v Speaker 1>that stinks because of the flycatcher thing, my bob and

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<v Speaker 1>uh Kyle, go ahead, and for for the for the

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<v Speaker 1>audience that is going to be listening to this probably

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<v Speaker 1>a week or two apart from the the last episode

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<v Speaker 1>we just cut. Who are you? What do you do?

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<v Speaker 1>Why are you famous? Why do you?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know Twitter handles, I don't know why. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know whether famous is the right word anymore. I

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<v Speaker 2>think maybe more infamous infacts. In any case, I'm Kyle.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of people know me online as GATIFIVE been

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<v Speaker 2>around now for most of the web. I've been doing

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<v Speaker 2>this engineering thing for like twenty five years or more,

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<v Speaker 2>so long time, and I'm most well known for the

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<v Speaker 2>you Don't Know JS books and those were published in

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<v Speaker 2>the last decade or so, two editions six books each,

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<v Speaker 2>or six books in the first edition and then kind

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<v Speaker 2>of like up in the air, how many books for

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<v Speaker 2>the second edition. But anyway, the you Don't Know JS

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<v Speaker 2>books are how most people know me. That's spun awful

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<v Speaker 2>whole series of courses that I've done on front end masters,

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<v Speaker 2>corporate trainings and conferences, so that's all a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people out there will probably know me.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that you're one of the certainly one

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<v Speaker 1>of the bigger names in the industry. So I think

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<v Speaker 1>I think you're famous. You're famous.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I appreciate it, and.

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<v Speaker 1>I always love, uh, you know, I've I've always loved

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<v Speaker 1>when you give presentations or or I think we've had

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<v Speaker 1>you on the podcast a couple of times. Yeah, you

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<v Speaker 1>think I disagree with a lot of what you have

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<v Speaker 1>to say, but I learn and sometimes I come around

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<v Speaker 1>to your way of thinking. So I I just I

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<v Speaker 1>think you have been a great educator and I hope

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<v Speaker 1>you continue to do so. All right, So with that

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<v Speaker 1>out of the way. So the spicy bit I I'm

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just gonna say this plainly. I'm not gonna sugarcoat

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<v Speaker 1>it because I think I think that between you and

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<v Speaker 1>I and the people watching, I think that's gonna be right.

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<v Speaker 1>I have noticed over probably the last six months your

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<v Speaker 1>your tweets have gone from being things that were felt

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<v Speaker 1>more positive, more energetic, to a lot of tweets coming

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<v Speaker 1>through that have a really bitter tone to them. And

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<v Speaker 1>I am curious as to what's going on. I was

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<v Speaker 1>saying before, I think that some of it's resonating with

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<v Speaker 1>an industry problem. It's not just like you're having a

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<v Speaker 1>personal thing in your life and it's making you better,

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<v Speaker 1>although I think that there might be something there, but

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<v Speaker 1>there's some sort of industry problem that's going on that's

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<v Speaker 1>reflected in this. So do you agree that, especially in

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<v Speaker 1>the last six months, you have had become a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit bitter and why.

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<v Speaker 2>I very much agree, except for the timeframe I would

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<v Speaker 2>say is longer than that. I would say it's at

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<v Speaker 2>least twelve months, And if we really kind of zoomed out,

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<v Speaker 2>we might say that the way that I've approached social

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<v Speaker 2>media has really changed quite a bit over the last

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<v Speaker 2>two to four years. But I'll say that in the

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<v Speaker 2>most immediate sense, I am absolutely dealing with a significant

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<v Speaker 2>amount of i'll call it personal enemus frustration. One of

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<v Speaker 2>the biggest reasons for that is that I have now

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<v Speaker 2>been unemployed for a full year. And it's not for

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<v Speaker 2>lack of trying. I've done a lot of applying and

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<v Speaker 2>some interviewing and a whole lot of effort. I have

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<v Speaker 2>been able to find a place. And you know, there's

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<v Speaker 2>going to be a lot of different reasons why that's

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<v Speaker 2>the case. I'm not going to try to come on

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<v Speaker 2>here and shift the blame onto everybody else. I own

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of that with particular I with with particular

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<v Speaker 2>respect to the tone I've had some i'll call it

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<v Speaker 2>love hate relationship with social media for quite a while,

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<v Speaker 2>going back at least several years. And part of the

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<v Speaker 2>reason for that is because because of the success that

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<v Speaker 2>I had in building a bit of a long tail

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<v Speaker 2>following around my takes on JavaScript and trying to encourage

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<v Speaker 2>people to learn it, and I am regularly seen as

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<v Speaker 2>someone who kind of challenges the status quo and pushes

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<v Speaker 2>back and asks more challenging questions, and I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>resonated with quite a few folks. I hope that people

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<v Speaker 2>have felt empowered to own why they feel a certain way.

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<v Speaker 2>That's certainly always been my mission. But I didn't make

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of friends along the way, is the point

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<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to make. I've made a name for myself

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<v Speaker 2>by being willing to be disagreeable and what I hope

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<v Speaker 2>has still been productive ways. But I made a name

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<v Speaker 2>for that by being a bit more divisive or churning,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, stirring the pot, whatever kind of metaphor you

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<v Speaker 2>want to use, and that I did not recognize and

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<v Speaker 2>probably should have, but I did not recognize the cost

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<v Speaker 2>of building my brand that way, and I didn't even

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<v Speaker 2>think of it as building a brand at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>But over the last fifteen or whatever years of my

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<v Speaker 2>public persona, I built a brand around this guy who

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<v Speaker 2>comes up with these hot takes on JavaScript and is,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, challenging the status quo and is a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit maybe cantankerous at times, and gray beard and old

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<v Speaker 2>school and any of those other terms. And I also,

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<v Speaker 2>because of that large following, because I'm a human and

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<v Speaker 2>I have an ego, I enjoyed the fact that I

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<v Speaker 2>had you know, eighty whatever thousand followers, and that when

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<v Speaker 2>I had something to say, people listened. They didn't always agree,

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<v Speaker 2>in fact, probably mostly didn't agree, but at least they listened.

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<v Speaker 2>I had a megaphone that I could speak through, as

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<v Speaker 2>opposed to if I just had a little personal Twitter

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<v Speaker 2>account somewhere with you know, seven followers, and half of

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<v Speaker 2>them were my family. That's not much of a megaphone

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<v Speaker 2>to make, you know, a difference if I have a thought.

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<v Speaker 2>So over the last several years, I increasingly started sharing

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<v Speaker 2>thoughts at times that didn't have anything to do with

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<v Speaker 2>my technological perspective, whether they were about politics or religion

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<v Speaker 2>or their social issues. As a person, I was willing

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<v Speaker 2>to kind of share my personal views on things, and

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<v Speaker 2>I was doing so through this megaphone that had been

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<v Speaker 2>built around the brand of JavaScript. You know, questioner, I'll

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<v Speaker 2>call it. I didn't realize that that was going to

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<v Speaker 2>be taken so poorly, and I pushed back a lot

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<v Speaker 2>on people who would try to tone you know, they

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<v Speaker 2>try to police what I'd say, and they'd say things like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, stick to the JavaScript. We don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>hear what you have to say. About you know, politics

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever, and I pushed back on that. I still

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<v Speaker 2>feel like it should have been my right to be

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<v Speaker 2>whoever I wanted to be with my own online persona.

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<v Speaker 2>But what I didn't appreciate at the time is how

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<v Speaker 2>many people had come along for the ride only because

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<v Speaker 2>of what they liked about what I had to say

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<v Speaker 2>with JavaScript and technology, and so I kind of I

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<v Speaker 2>sort of broken unspoken contract in doing that by trying

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<v Speaker 2>to become something more than the JavaScript guy and talk

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<v Speaker 2>about other things. It really created some strong frustration in folks,

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<v Speaker 2>and I didn't appreciate just how tangible that would be.

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<v Speaker 2>So there were a couple of different instances over the

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<v Speaker 2>last several years where I ended up creating a pretty

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<v Speaker 2>significant storm of frustration and controversy over one of my

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<v Speaker 2>over something that wouldn't necessarily have been about JavaScript. One

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<v Speaker 2>of them was on my views on healthcare and health insurance.

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<v Speaker 2>I have some very personal and real experiences with that

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<v Speaker 2>that are difficult. And another one was on probably the

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<v Speaker 2>most recent a year or two back, was on what

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<v Speaker 2>I thought we should do to change how we onboard

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<v Speaker 2>engineers into being new engineers on teams and into the industry.

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<v Speaker 2>I had thoughts about that, and in both of those cases,

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<v Speaker 2>I believe that I was significantly misunderstood in what I said.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm not here to defend myself because the damage

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<v Speaker 2>has already been done. But there was a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people that got really mad at what I said. They

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<v Speaker 2>took it in ways that were very much not what

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<v Speaker 2>I intended, and went with it. The most recent round

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<v Speaker 2>involved a significant push to boycott my courses and books,

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<v Speaker 2>to try to tell people that I should never be

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<v Speaker 2>employed in the industry again, and literal personal threats of

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<v Speaker 2>harm and direct messages that other people have experienced I

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<v Speaker 2>experienced it to And because of those periods of time

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<v Speaker 2>and other smaller periods in between where I get really frustrated,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll kind of like take a break from social media,

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<v Speaker 2>hoping that I can kind of clear my head, and

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<v Speaker 2>then I come back in a week or a month

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<v Speaker 2>or sometimes much longer, and I try to pick up

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<v Speaker 2>where I left off and maybe have a better reflection

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<v Speaker 2>on how I've been. But one thing in this most

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<v Speaker 2>recent in a most recent kind of kerfuffle, was somebody

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<v Speaker 2>said to me on one of it was a LinkedIn post.

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<v Speaker 2>Somebody said to me, you know, you're very logical, and

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<v Speaker 2>you're defending your points well, and you're making your points

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<v Speaker 2>well here, but what you're missing is that you're just

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<v Speaker 2>not kind. And I took quite a bit of time

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<v Speaker 2>to reflect upon that assertion, and I think that person

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<v Speaker 2>is absolutely right. I don't think I'm very a very

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<v Speaker 2>kind person. And I actually dug into this with my therapist.

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<v Speaker 2>I see a therapist, and I like normalizing those things.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's helpful for people. I see a therapist,

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<v Speaker 2>and I went to my therapist and I talked with

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<v Speaker 2>them about this, and what I can say is that

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<v Speaker 2>because of some quirks of the way my personality works,

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<v Speaker 2>kindness is not actually a priority of mine, which is

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<v Speaker 2>why I'm not kind. There are things that I think

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<v Speaker 2>are much more important. In one of those is the

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<v Speaker 2>authenticity of being the same person in every situation in conversation,

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<v Speaker 2>every person I interact with, I want for them to

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<v Speaker 2>come away thinking that's the same guy as he was

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<v Speaker 2>over here, and he was over here, and he was

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<v Speaker 2>in his book and he was in this conference. I

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<v Speaker 2>want to be that. That's one of my core psychological drivers.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's really messy how this plays out in social media.

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<v Speaker 2>So when you see my frustration around my lack of employment,

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<v Speaker 2>see my frustration around decisions that I made along the

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<v Speaker 2>way that I didn't realize We're going to box me

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<v Speaker 2>in later, when you see my frustration around how I'm

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<v Speaker 2>so regularly mistaken, how there can be people that really

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<v Speaker 2>believe in what I'm trying to do, And then there

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<v Speaker 2>are other people out there, probably not listening to this episode,

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<v Speaker 2>but there are other people out there who are really

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<v Speaker 2>really strong Getify haters, they're really strong detractors. And I

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<v Speaker 2>get web notifications or people will tell me about threads

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<v Speaker 2>that just randomly spin up on somewhere on a Reddit,

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<v Speaker 2>or there's dozens of them that I get screenshots of

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<v Speaker 2>private discord chats, and people just really like to talk

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of crap about me, and I've upset a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of people. I never One thing I would like

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<v Speaker 2>to say in my defense is to say that I

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<v Speaker 2>do not insult people. I do not make my points

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<v Speaker 2>by way of trying to attack the person and demean

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<v Speaker 2>the person and condescend the person. I have some very

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<v Speaker 2>strong opinions of what I feel, and I'm trying to

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<v Speaker 2>avidly portray what I feel when I'm in these conversations

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<v Speaker 2>and social media or whatever. I take up the case

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<v Speaker 2>strongly and passionately, but most people that I engage with

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<v Speaker 2>in these negative fashions don't have that same line. They

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<v Speaker 2>very quickly turn to attacking me as a person attacking,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, calling a troll, telling me that I'm you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a bad influence. I've been told many times you should

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<v Speaker 2>be unemployed. You don't deserve to have a job.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh that's tough, right, And I own that. I've created

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of controversy around myself. I'm a lightning rod.

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<v Speaker 2>I own that. But I do think that you won't

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<v Speaker 2>go back and you won't find examples of me saying

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<v Speaker 2>things like hurtful things like that to other people, because

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just that's not in my nature to attack people.

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<v Speaker 2>I disagree a lot, and I have some strong feelings

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<v Speaker 2>about some people, but it's not in my nature to

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<v Speaker 2>go after people's personal ethics and morals in that way

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<v Speaker 2>the way that I've feeled a lot of that. So

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<v Speaker 2>I guess this was a very long winded way of

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<v Speaker 2>saying the increasingly negative tone you're hearing from me and

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of social media, especially Twitter, but even it's

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<v Speaker 2>crept int LinkedIn and people have said it there too.

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<v Speaker 2>Now that negativity is coming because I'm not really in

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<v Speaker 2>a great place, if I'm being honest, I'm pretty frustrated

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<v Speaker 2>about where the industry is, where it's headed. I'm frustrated

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<v Speaker 2>personally about how it left me. I don't have a

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<v Speaker 2>place really, or I don't feel like I have a place,

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<v Speaker 2>and how I felt like I really spent my career

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<v Speaker 2>trying to keep us from getting here, and we still

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<v Speaker 2>got here, and then you mix in all the other stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>Like I'm just it's difficult for me. I consider being

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<v Speaker 2>logical and rational to be the most respectful thing that

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<v Speaker 2>I could ever do with somebody I engage with. That's

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<v Speaker 2>the way, That's part of how I'm wired. But I

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<v Speaker 2>think most people experience that as meanness, as rudeness, as

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<v Speaker 2>being too curt and too dismissive. And so I know

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<v Speaker 2>that there's a lot of people, and maybe a few

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<v Speaker 2>of them are listening. I know there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people out there that feel like I've ruffled feathers over

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<v Speaker 2>the years on that, and I just want to say

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<v Speaker 2>it was never ever my intention to personally demean or

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<v Speaker 2>attack a person. I've always tried to stick to the topic.

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<v Speaker 1>I hear you there. I'm not a kind person. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't aspire to be a kind person. I think that

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<v Speaker 1>there's nuance to how to say this, but kindness is

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<v Speaker 1>a form of manipulation, as opposed to or sorry, I

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<v Speaker 1>actually said that wrong. I distinguished between nice and kind.

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<v Speaker 1>Nice is a form of manipulation. Kind is a form

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<v Speaker 1>of authenticity. And the way that you were speaking, I

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<v Speaker 1>was interpreting as people want you to be nice, but

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<v Speaker 1>I think that it is in fact kind to confront

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<v Speaker 1>and I feel very comfortab when like this is this

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<v Speaker 1>is a frustration I have. I will get into arguments

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<v Speaker 1>with someone, a heated argument, and walk away thinking, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't like them as a person, but I respect

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<v Speaker 1>them for their knowledge, and when I have that problem,

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<v Speaker 1>I want them on my team. And I wish that

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<v Speaker 1>more people were that way. I have had frenemies become

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<v Speaker 1>friends because we were arguing about something and we could

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<v Speaker 1>call each other d bags or whatever. You know, we

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<v Speaker 1>could do a little bit of name calling, and but

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<v Speaker 1>we could walk away having learned like, Okay, this person's

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<v Speaker 1>actually really smarter at this, and they've got some opinions.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't agree with but but yeah, I want them

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<v Speaker 1>on my team if I'm doing X, because I can

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<v Speaker 1>tell they know X. And there's there's I mean, it's

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<v Speaker 1>not like hundreds of people, but there's a handful of

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<v Speaker 1>people that, over the course of my career that I

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<v Speaker 1>have gone back to, and you know, the friendship. Like

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<v Speaker 1>first it was the fighting or the argument, like the

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00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:10.279
<v Speaker 1>you know, like the two cats that just like something

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<v Speaker 1>about you I don't like, Like I don't even have

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<v Speaker 1>a reason to, I just don't like it. And then

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<v Speaker 1>that turning into a that that turning into but I

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<v Speaker 1>respect you, and that turning into Okay, well let's actually

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<v Speaker 1>work together on this project where you're obviously better, and

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<v Speaker 1>that turning into friendship. And I wish that that was

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<v Speaker 1>the norm. I think that was the whole idea behind.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, if you can't beat them, join them when

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<v Speaker 1>when somebody's bested you, when they've defeated your arguments, when

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<v Speaker 1>they've when they've made you look bad because you were wrong,

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to go back and say, but dang,

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<v Speaker 1>do I want to have you on my team for

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<v Speaker 1>this project? So I don't know is that does that

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<v Speaker 1>resonate with any of what you were saying or feeling.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, parts of it, for sure. The the cheesy way

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<v Speaker 2>of saying it is to disagree without being disagreeable. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think that last part I've got a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>work that I could still improve on, because I think

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<v Speaker 2>that the intent that I have in what I'm saying

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<v Speaker 2>versus the way that I'm experienced by others, there's a

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00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:22.839
<v Speaker 2>wide gap there. And I literally struggle with this all

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<v Speaker 2>day every day. Why is there such a wide gap?

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<v Speaker 2>Why don't people experience me the way that I'm intending

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<v Speaker 2>to come across? And so I believe that there's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of people that have been turned off to what

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00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:43.599
<v Speaker 2>otherwise could have been, you know, useful disagreement and collaboration

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<v Speaker 2>because they've been really unhappy with the disagreeable way of

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<v Speaker 2>me doing things, whether that's being too you know, me

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00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:56.680
<v Speaker 2>being too quick to respond to something I experience on

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<v Speaker 2>a regular basis, feeling like the rest of the world

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00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:02.680
<v Speaker 2>is going in slow motion compared to me. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know if anybody else feels that way, but in any

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<v Speaker 2>sort of conversations or debates, I feel very much like

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<v Speaker 2>because I spend so much time in my own head

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about things, I already know exactly why I feel

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<v Speaker 2>the way that I do right or wong. I have

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<v Speaker 2>lots of deep reasons behind it, and the rest of

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<v Speaker 2>the world is just so slow motion compared to that

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<v Speaker 2>and can't understand. And I can't even get them to

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<v Speaker 2>listen to me long enough for me to articulate why

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<v Speaker 2>I feel that way. But I hear when you know

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<v Speaker 2>that that old adage of like strong opinions loosely held

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever. I've never understood or been able to agree

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<v Speaker 2>with that, partly because if an opinion is loosely held

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<v Speaker 2>to me, that means that one statement to the contrary

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<v Speaker 2>might you might throw up the whole opinion right, just

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<v Speaker 2>like one new fact, and you might completely flop. And

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to share an opinion on something until

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<v Speaker 2>I have a mountain of reasons for why I feel

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<v Speaker 2>that way, because I've already spent hours or days or

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00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:13.680
<v Speaker 2>weeks in my head about it. I don't even share

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<v Speaker 2>opinions on things unless I've already spent that time. I

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00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:21.880
<v Speaker 2>do appreciate when somebody comes along with a mountain of

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00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:25.920
<v Speaker 2>counter evidence. I really enjoy that, and I have actually

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<v Speaker 2>changed opinions. I know there's people out there that are like, no,

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<v Speaker 2>he's never changed an opinion I have. But it's rare, Believe,

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<v Speaker 2>it's rare. I rarely find people willing to defend their

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<v Speaker 2>reasoning to the same level of rigor as I've got

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<v Speaker 2>driving what I feel about something, and so that creates

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<v Speaker 2>a real imbalance, and I think that is where a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of the static comes. Is this imbalance that I'm

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<v Speaker 2>coming to the fight already prepared with a bunch of stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>This person feels that way, and I'm not invalidating that

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<v Speaker 2>they that they feel the way they do. That's you're

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<v Speaker 2>You're entitled to your own opinion, but if you're going

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<v Speaker 2>to try to convince me, you've got to bring the

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<v Speaker 2>same amount of counter evidence. That's how I've always taken it.

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<v Speaker 2>So I've probably missed out on a lot of what

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<v Speaker 2>you've you know, what you were saying about, the opportunities

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<v Speaker 2>that you've had to kind of in retrospect go back

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<v Speaker 2>and rebuild a bridge and all of that. I've missed

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<v Speaker 2>out on a lot of that.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, for me, that's been in person. That's that hasn't

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<v Speaker 1>been over Twitter. That's been you know, somebody that I

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<v Speaker 1>went to school with, somebody that I lived in the

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<v Speaker 1>same apartment complexes. You know that those have been situations

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<v Speaker 1>where I've actually had real interaction with the person and

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<v Speaker 1>some proximity to them. I've I don't think I've ever Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so I think enough time has passed and it's well established,

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<v Speaker 1>I can I can talk about this. So we had

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<v Speaker 1>Jake Archibald on and I was not prepared. I did

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<v Speaker 1>not know who he was. Uh, we had We've switched

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<v Speaker 1>meeting booking systems a few times on JavaScript jabber, and

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<v Speaker 1>we had done that recently within the last month or two,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was still a problem where like the emails

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't get sent, and so it's like, Okay, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know what I'm doing this week, Chuck was out sick

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<v Speaker 1>or something, I mean, and and so we were having

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<v Speaker 1>this conversation and I was I thought I didn't. I

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<v Speaker 1>also didn't really understand British culture. It's much more high

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<v Speaker 1>context compared to American culture, meaning that like you have

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<v Speaker 1>to there's rules that you have to know that are

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<v Speaker 1>beyond what the words that are said that come out

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<v Speaker 1>of the mouth, and that that relationship. I don't I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think I'll ever be able to salvage and and

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<v Speaker 1>I still respect him hugely for the work that he does.

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<v Speaker 1>Like I've used some of his stuff, I read his

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<v Speaker 1>blog articles, I'll retweet him. You know. We still every

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<v Speaker 1>once in a while get into a little something. I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't even leave because I'll go on a thread that's

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<v Speaker 1>like six years old for some web standard and just

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00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:11.160
<v Speaker 1>post and you know, and admittedly inflammatory comment because I

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00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:13.799
<v Speaker 1>want to get the conversation started again. It's like, okay,

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00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:16.319
<v Speaker 1>like this, this has been six years now. And then

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<v Speaker 1>there's other people you knew, you could see, like you know,

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00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:22.400
<v Speaker 1>eight months ago or fifteen months ago, you know, somebody

393
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:25.680
<v Speaker 1>did the same thing, and uh, and I didn't even

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00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:28.039
<v Speaker 1>he responded to something because apparently he's part of some

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<v Speaker 1>web standards body or whatever that I commented on, and

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<v Speaker 1>I even I mean, look, I but like, you know,

397
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<v Speaker 1>so that's that's my one big experience with somebody online

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<v Speaker 1>where like I respect him, I respect that he has

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<v Speaker 1>knowledge that I don't have. I wish that it were

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00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:46.880
<v Speaker 1>the other way around as well. I think that my

401
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:52.000
<v Speaker 1>senses that what he came away with was that that

402
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:54.799
<v Speaker 1>I have no idea what I'm talking about whatsoever, and

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00:24:54.839 --> 00:24:57.599
<v Speaker 1>that my my opinions were completely invalid. That's that's the

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00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:00.160
<v Speaker 1>way it came around to me because I was I

405
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<v Speaker 1>was like, you know, I was being aggressive in questioning

406
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<v Speaker 1>and pushing back on what he was saying, because you know,

407
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<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of stuff people say and it's like

408
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<v Speaker 1>it's dogma. They say it because they say it. It's

409
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<v Speaker 1>not because that they know that the truth behind it,

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00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:16.839
<v Speaker 1>or they're looking at it from one particular perspective, you know.

411
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<v Speaker 1>But a lot of the stuff with the Web Standers

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<v Speaker 1>committees in particular, I get so frustrated because these people

413
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<v Speaker 1>are web developers, a lot of them. You know, they

414
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<v Speaker 1>spend their time in system programming languages, and they're making

415
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<v Speaker 1>decisions on JavaScript, which you know, huge props being smarter

416
00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:32.640
<v Speaker 1>than the average JavaScript dev. But you need to walk

417
00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:35.519
<v Speaker 1>in our shoes for a little bit before you ratify

418
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:40.039
<v Speaker 1>that standard because like we have to live with those decisions,

419
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:40.720
<v Speaker 1>you know.

420
00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So I've had I've had my ups and downs

421
00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:49.039
<v Speaker 2>with Jake. I would say I'm in a similar place

422
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:51.799
<v Speaker 2>where I respect a lot of what he's built. I

423
00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:54.079
<v Speaker 2>mean I talked on the previous episode about I used

424
00:25:54.079 --> 00:25:56.559
<v Speaker 2>one of the libraries that he built. I respect him

425
00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:59.039
<v Speaker 2>and I appreciate the things that he's done. He and

426
00:25:59.079 --> 00:26:07.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't likely have a salvageable personal relationship for a

427
00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:11.680
<v Speaker 2>variety of reasons, but he's not the only ones I

428
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:15.440
<v Speaker 2>don't want to spend my time focusing on him. The

429
00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:19.279
<v Speaker 2>experience that you just described with standards has largely largely

430
00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:23.440
<v Speaker 2>tracked with my experience going back to the early two

431
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:25.920
<v Speaker 2>thousands when I was first starting to get my head

432
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.039
<v Speaker 2>around JavaScript and trying to carve out a space where

433
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:31.920
<v Speaker 2>that was not an accepted thing. There were not jobs

434
00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:35.319
<v Speaker 2>for JavaScript experts at the time, and I was trying

435
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:39.240
<v Speaker 2>to do so, and I naturally gravitated to trying to

436
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:45.200
<v Speaker 2>participate in TC thirty nine discussion emails, you know, email threads,

437
00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:51.240
<v Speaker 2>and I was shot down so harshly, so many times

438
00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:54.519
<v Speaker 2>that part of the reason I actually ended up writing

439
00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:56.480
<v Speaker 2>the you Don't Know JS books, And part of the

440
00:26:56.519 --> 00:26:58.519
<v Speaker 2>reason for that title it's, you know, it's a big

441
00:26:59.079 --> 00:27:02.960
<v Speaker 2>complex layer of meaning behind that book and that that title.

442
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:05.960
<v Speaker 2>But part of it is because I was told so

443
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:12.720
<v Speaker 2>many times in both literal terms, and you know, implicitly figuratively,

444
00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:16.119
<v Speaker 2>you don't know enough JavaScript to be here, You don't

445
00:27:16.119 --> 00:27:18.200
<v Speaker 2>know enough of our terms. You don't know if enough

446
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:20.720
<v Speaker 2>of our You're not up to the bar that we need.

447
00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:25.200
<v Speaker 2>And I desperately wanted to be good enough to ask questions,

448
00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:30.599
<v Speaker 2>to propose ideas, And to this day I desperately wish

449
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:33.680
<v Speaker 2>that I was good enough to be taken seriously by

450
00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:36.119
<v Speaker 2>anyone in TC thirty nine for that matter.

451
00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:40.160
<v Speaker 1>I've I think that's a lost cause. Honestly, look the

452
00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:44.640
<v Speaker 1>message through. You can't. It's political. It's one hundred percent political.

453
00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:48.279
<v Speaker 1>It's not technical, it's not reason, it's not logic. Sorry, sorry,

454
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:50.799
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna cut you off here because this is one

455
00:27:50.839 --> 00:27:54.160
<v Speaker 1>that just inflames me. Rejex dot escape. You read the

456
00:27:54.240 --> 00:28:00.680
<v Speaker 1>message thread and it's couched. It's couched. So so like

457
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.799
<v Speaker 1>due to the great respect that we have for so

458
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:08.240
<v Speaker 1>and so and owing to his experience, we have carefully

459
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:12.240
<v Speaker 1>considered and decided to pursue other avenues for the time

460
00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:15.359
<v Speaker 1>being with you know, and it's like, no cut the BS.

461
00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:17.079
<v Speaker 1>Tell the dude, look like I don't care that you're

462
00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:18.960
<v Speaker 1>one hundred years old. I don't care that you're one

463
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:21.000
<v Speaker 1>of the best D plus plus developers has ever lived.

464
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:24.880
<v Speaker 1>You're wrong, like you're wrong, like everybody knows it everybody

465
00:28:24.920 --> 00:28:29.000
<v Speaker 1>knows we need rejex dot escape. There's somebody that people

466
00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:32.240
<v Speaker 1>want to please standing in the way, and nobody has

467
00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:36.279
<v Speaker 1>the courage. Everybody needs to be respectful. Nobody has the

468
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:38.759
<v Speaker 1>courage to say, look, this is a technical decision. Your

469
00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:41.519
<v Speaker 1>emotions are getting in the way. It's five against six

470
00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:44.799
<v Speaker 1>or five against one, and we're we're putting this through.

471
00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:47.960
<v Speaker 1>But the other thing with that is I've been on

472
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:50.240
<v Speaker 1>another standard's body, very short lived. I only went to

473
00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:53.119
<v Speaker 1>two sessions. I couldn't stomach it. It was an IoT

474
00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:56.960
<v Speaker 1>standards body. And uh, I mean the guy who was

475
00:28:57.039 --> 00:28:58.960
<v Speaker 1>leading the thing, he took me aside and he's like, look,

476
00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:01.559
<v Speaker 1>because you're new here, I'm going to school you on

477
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:04.960
<v Speaker 1>some things. This is so and so. He works for Cisco.

478
00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:08.480
<v Speaker 1>His objective is that Cisco wants a patent on this.

479
00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:11.240
<v Speaker 1>They're not going to do anything unless their patent is

480
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:14.480
<v Speaker 1>represented in this standard. This is so and so, and

481
00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:17.079
<v Speaker 1>it may not have been Cisco, so don't don't. I'm

482
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:19.200
<v Speaker 1>just throwing some names out there, like you know, this

483
00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:24.839
<v Speaker 1>is so and so. He's from the Google team, and

484
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:28.960
<v Speaker 1>his objective is that he doesn't want Cisco to have

485
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:32.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, any advancement whatsoever. He's going to try to

486
00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:35.880
<v Speaker 1>block the patent being used whatsoever. And like here's so

487
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:37.759
<v Speaker 1>and so, and he kind of gave me the lay

488
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:39.559
<v Speaker 1>of land. Like we had this, you know, this this

489
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:42.079
<v Speaker 1>back room conversation where he gave me the lay of

490
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:44.839
<v Speaker 1>the land and basically explained why no progress was going

491
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:47.039
<v Speaker 1>to be made and that if any decisions were made,

492
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:48.559
<v Speaker 1>they weren't going to be the ones that benefited the

493
00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:50.640
<v Speaker 1>people that the standard went to. Now, he didn't say

494
00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:52.880
<v Speaker 1>like that because he was optimistic, because he had done

495
00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:55.599
<v Speaker 1>this for years. He was good at politicking. He knew

496
00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:59.079
<v Speaker 1>that the incremental gains, like just getting one good part

497
00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:02.039
<v Speaker 1>of a standard through was worth the politicking. I can't

498
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:06.160
<v Speaker 1>stomach it. So sorry, sorry, sorry, not sorry for cutting

499
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.720
<v Speaker 1>off there, but like I just I can't give these

500
00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:14.000
<v Speaker 1>TC thirty nine people any excuse because because I don't

501
00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:17.680
<v Speaker 1>have that in my heart, I don't understand the politicking.

502
00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:20.039
<v Speaker 1>It's not something I'm good at. And when there's something

503
00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:22.440
<v Speaker 1>that is so obviously the right thing to do, and

504
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:28.000
<v Speaker 1>somebody says, well, the Rejack escape function won't escape strings

505
00:30:28.039 --> 00:30:30.680
<v Speaker 1>that haven't been escaped, so we can't have a Regick

506
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:33.440
<v Speaker 1>escape function, Instead, we're going to continue to have people

507
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:36.519
<v Speaker 1>download it from NPM or copy it from stack overflow.

508
00:30:36.759 --> 00:30:39.119
<v Speaker 1>Like I just I can't do it. I don't have

509
00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:40.640
<v Speaker 1>it in me. I'm not that good of a person.

510
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:46.240
<v Speaker 2>I could fill up many, many hours of the podcast

511
00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:50.960
<v Speaker 2>talking about dozens and dozens of battles that I've gotten

512
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:54.720
<v Speaker 2>embroiled in on topics like that. I wasn't involved in

513
00:30:54.759 --> 00:30:58.279
<v Speaker 2>Regick's escape, but there's dozens of others, from Global This

514
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:03.440
<v Speaker 2>to records and twop syntax to one hundred others. I

515
00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:11.160
<v Speaker 2>will say, for anybody that's listening, I do believe there's

516
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:14.200
<v Speaker 2>quite a few people on TC thirty nine. It's not

517
00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:17.519
<v Speaker 2>one body with one view, it's hundreds of people. And

518
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:20.279
<v Speaker 2>I do believe there's quite a few people on TC

519
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:23.039
<v Speaker 2>thirty nine that really do have the best interests of

520
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:27.119
<v Speaker 2>JavaScript and really don't like and don't want to devolve

521
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:30.799
<v Speaker 2>into all the politicking and pr battle. I think there's

522
00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:35.359
<v Speaker 2>quite a few people there. Unfortunately, the body doesn't work

523
00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:41.079
<v Speaker 2>according to that tone from my experience, because there are

524
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:43.839
<v Speaker 2>others who have been there a long time and who

525
00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:48.079
<v Speaker 2>have a lot of influence in other ways. But we

526
00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:51.000
<v Speaker 2>should be very careful. I think not to paint TC

527
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:54.359
<v Speaker 2>thirty nine as a whole, because there's hundreds of different

528
00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:58.200
<v Speaker 2>people and they are on a spectrum of what they

529
00:31:58.359 --> 00:32:01.759
<v Speaker 2>are bringing to the table and what their biases are

530
00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:04.680
<v Speaker 2>and their backgrounds and all of that. I just personally

531
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:11.480
<v Speaker 2>wish that I had ever been seen as a peer

532
00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:15.160
<v Speaker 2>among that group. Not that I was like literally like

533
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:17.960
<v Speaker 2>had a seed on TC thirty nine. I just wish

534
00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:22.240
<v Speaker 2>that I had ever earned the right to be respected

535
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:26.319
<v Speaker 2>among that group. And the vast majority of my interactions

536
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:30.359
<v Speaker 2>have always treated me like I'm an outsider that's bringing

537
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:33.759
<v Speaker 2>an unwelcome amount of noise to what they would prefer

538
00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:37.319
<v Speaker 2>to just be their own process. And I'm you know,

539
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:40.000
<v Speaker 2>I wish, But TC thirty nine is not the only

540
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:43.680
<v Speaker 2>standards body that I've had that kind of experience with.

541
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:46.240
<v Speaker 2>It just I've had more of that experience because I've

542
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:48.000
<v Speaker 2>cared about JavaScript for so long.

543
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:52.519
<v Speaker 1>And I apologize if I'm miss it sounds like I'm misrepresenting,

544
00:32:53.079 --> 00:32:55.839
<v Speaker 1>but like, when I come into these issues, it's the

545
00:32:55.880 --> 00:32:59.519
<v Speaker 1>same people, it's like the same user handles across the

546
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:02.000
<v Speaker 1>various issues that I'm seeing that are holding back progress,

547
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:05.200
<v Speaker 1>and so from my perspective, and then hearing when Douglas

548
00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:08.519
<v Speaker 1>Crawford used to talk about it. You know, so just

549
00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:14.440
<v Speaker 1>like my perspective is is just I'm I'm not I'm

550
00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:20.720
<v Speaker 1>not seeing the heroes I'm seeing. Pardon my French. No,

551
00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:22.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm not even gonna say that. You know what I'm thinking,

552
00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:26.960
<v Speaker 1>But well you aren't. You may be not seeing them.

553
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:29.599
<v Speaker 2>But I just want to say I believe that they're there,

554
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:33.640
<v Speaker 2>but they aren't. I'm so little on the GitHub discussion threads.

555
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:36.480
<v Speaker 2>They aren't the ones who triange issues. They aren't the

556
00:33:36.519 --> 00:33:42.960
<v Speaker 2>ones who try to who create ostensibly welcoming experiences from

557
00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:46.079
<v Speaker 2>those not on the body. And I wish that were

558
00:33:46.119 --> 00:33:48.480
<v Speaker 2>the case. I wish there was a tone that wanted that,

559
00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:52.160
<v Speaker 2>but I think for many many reasons, I don't really

560
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:54.759
<v Speaker 2>think they want that as a body. I don't think

561
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:57.680
<v Speaker 2>they really want it. They operate on GitHub as if

562
00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:00.519
<v Speaker 2>they want it, but I think they would really prefer

563
00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:04.839
<v Speaker 2>to kind of do their thing themselves. So I've largely

564
00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:09.360
<v Speaker 2>tried to step out of any discussion around TC thirty

565
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:15.239
<v Speaker 2>nine and around JavaScript, and I've stopped making my complaints

566
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:19.480
<v Speaker 2>about the language. And I mean even I even went

567
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:22.119
<v Speaker 2>so far as instead of I need to evolve to

568
00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:26.679
<v Speaker 2>your point, instead of trying to change to change JavaScript,

569
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:31.119
<v Speaker 2>and instead of just complaining about JavaScript, I actually designed

570
00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:34.400
<v Speaker 2>a whole programming language that has some of my ideas

571
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:37.719
<v Speaker 2>about what I wish, a programming language where, whether people

572
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:40.440
<v Speaker 2>like it or not, I just I wanted to be

573
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:45.199
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to do something productive instead of simply saying

574
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:48.639
<v Speaker 2>I don't like what JavaScript's doing. So I hope that

575
00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:52.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, maybe somebody's listening and maybe they can find

576
00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:54.199
<v Speaker 2>others that they can be more welcoming to. But my

577
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:57.960
<v Speaker 2>experience over fifteen or twenty years has not been very

578
00:34:57.960 --> 00:34:59.199
<v Speaker 2>welcoming unfortunately.

579
00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:03.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm.

580
00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:05.320
<v Speaker 2>So.

581
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:09.159
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how you feel about these things, and

582
00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:10.920
<v Speaker 1>we can we can have different opinions. But this is

583
00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:14.280
<v Speaker 1>one of the reasons I hate COCs, because I learned

584
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:18.199
<v Speaker 1>very early on that a coc is not for inclusivity.

585
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:23.320
<v Speaker 1>It is for exclusivity. Coocs are to be able to

586
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:30.719
<v Speaker 1>use broad brushes to target wrong thinkers and silence them.

587
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:36.159
<v Speaker 1>They are not to help people have a better experience.

588
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:40.440
<v Speaker 1>And you know, simple programmer, I think he went through

589
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:43.599
<v Speaker 1>a similar experience as to some of what you were

590
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:45.800
<v Speaker 1>talking about earlier. But it seems like he came out

591
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:48.480
<v Speaker 1>on top like he had some books dropped from his

592
00:35:48.519 --> 00:35:53.760
<v Speaker 1>publisher and and you know, Chuck had something similar happened,

593
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.719
<v Speaker 1>which I mean the Chuck situation. Chuck was an innocent bystander.

594
00:35:56.920 --> 00:35:59.920
<v Speaker 1>He literally was just saying, Hey, I'll host the pod

595
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:02.800
<v Speaker 1>cast and let you to talk about it. And that

596
00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:08.719
<v Speaker 1>got him like lost bunches of sponsors, bunches of people

597
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:10.880
<v Speaker 1>that were going to come on the show, and all

598
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:13.760
<v Speaker 1>the I mean, he did nothing in my view, and

599
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:16.280
<v Speaker 1>I tried to see because I'll be fair. If I

600
00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:18.760
<v Speaker 1>think he did something wrong, I'll say it. But he

601
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:22.880
<v Speaker 1>had like the most generous take in the world of hey,

602
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:26.840
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what's going on. I would love to

603
00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:29.519
<v Speaker 1>have both of you on a podcast to talk about it.

604
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:36.320
<v Speaker 1>And that got him banned from conferences, dropped advertisers. It

605
00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:39.079
<v Speaker 1>was insane. That was the first time that that was

606
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:42.639
<v Speaker 1>before cancel culture was even the buzzword that it is today.

607
00:36:42.679 --> 00:36:44.719
<v Speaker 1>It was it was still something where it's like, now

608
00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:49.599
<v Speaker 1>that's not real or you know it's but yeah, it

609
00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:54.920
<v Speaker 1>seems like when that happened, I I'm not sure why

610
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:58.280
<v Speaker 1>Amy didn't come back on the show. I know that

611
00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:02.079
<v Speaker 1>some of it is because she's busy, but I have

612
00:37:02.119 --> 00:37:06.239
<v Speaker 1>to wonder if some of it was not due to

613
00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:11.760
<v Speaker 1>online harassment, because there was some that went on that

614
00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:13.400
<v Speaker 1>was uncomfortable.

615
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:18.960
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, so I'll say, just since you brought up

616
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:23.920
<v Speaker 2>codes of conduct, I personally do feel like there is

617
00:37:24.039 --> 00:37:28.000
<v Speaker 2>merit to codes of conduct, but the implementation of them

618
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:31.679
<v Speaker 2>and the enforcement of them is pretty flawed in my experience,

619
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:36.599
<v Speaker 2>and that I find frustrating. I think, on the whole,

620
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:41.039
<v Speaker 2>our industry is probably better with them than without them,

621
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:44.559
<v Speaker 2>but that doesn't that doesn't for clothes that I think

622
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:51.159
<v Speaker 2>there's some pretty strong flaws with them. I personally experienced

623
00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:56.800
<v Speaker 2>the negative side of that code of conduct enforcement at

624
00:37:56.800 --> 00:37:59.760
<v Speaker 2>a conference that I was supposed to be a speaker

625
00:37:59.800 --> 00:38:07.559
<v Speaker 2>at and I had a talk that had that I

626
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:10.360
<v Speaker 2>had given it other conferences successfully, and I was scheduled

627
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:14.920
<v Speaker 2>to give that talk at that conference. One of the

628
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:20.920
<v Speaker 2>marketers for that conference wrote an ad that made an

629
00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:26.760
<v Speaker 2>inappropriate joke about the title of my talk. That they

630
00:38:26.840 --> 00:38:29.800
<v Speaker 2>made an inappropriate pun from the title of my talk.

631
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:33.760
<v Speaker 2>That was an outside marketer or advertiser or something. Nobody

632
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:35.320
<v Speaker 2>cleared it with me. I didn't know what was happening,

633
00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:39.360
<v Speaker 2>but happened that ad offended a bunch of people, and

634
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:41.880
<v Speaker 2>those people got turned their attention to me in my

635
00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:46.119
<v Speaker 2>talk title, and they made a claim that my talk

636
00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:49.880
<v Speaker 2>title was a violation of the code of conduct because

637
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:55.320
<v Speaker 2>of what that market or advertiser did. The conference organizer

638
00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:58.440
<v Speaker 2>and I had some long drawn out conversations about it.

639
00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:01.079
<v Speaker 2>He was begging me to Chane change the talk title,

640
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:04.679
<v Speaker 2>and on principle, I really felt like I wasn't going

641
00:39:04.760 --> 00:39:07.280
<v Speaker 2>to change it because I felt like that was not

642
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:09.440
<v Speaker 2>at all the intent of the talk title, and I

643
00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:13.480
<v Speaker 2>didn't feel like it was fair to compromise on that.

644
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:20.239
<v Speaker 2>In the end, that conference I organizer basically dropped me

645
00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:22.159
<v Speaker 2>as a speaker. He said, well, if you won't change

646
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:25.400
<v Speaker 2>the title, then we can't have you speak because one

647
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:29.639
<v Speaker 2>of our sponsor companies, a big sponsor company, is going

648
00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:33.079
<v Speaker 2>to back out if you speak. So they dropped me

649
00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:37.159
<v Speaker 2>from the program. And one of the things that frustrates

650
00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:41.119
<v Speaker 2>me about that scenario, it's not like, oh man, I

651
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:43.719
<v Speaker 2>got deplatformed. I mean it was one conference. I've given

652
00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:46.639
<v Speaker 2>hundreds of conference talks. But what frustrated me about that

653
00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:51.239
<v Speaker 2>situation was literally hundred part I've literally given like over

654
00:39:51.280 --> 00:39:54.920
<v Speaker 2>two hundred conference talks. Yeah, wow, had I did not

655
00:39:55.039 --> 00:39:58.800
<v Speaker 2>realize I've done. I've been speaking forever. I've had plenty

656
00:39:58.840 --> 00:40:00.880
<v Speaker 2>of opportunities on the stage, is my point. I'm not

657
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:02.960
<v Speaker 2>trying to brag or something, but I've had plenty of opportunities.

658
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:06.039
<v Speaker 2>It's not like I don't somehow like canceled or dy platforms.

659
00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:10.760
<v Speaker 2>But the Code of Conduct is supposed to protect everybody equally,

660
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:14.880
<v Speaker 2>but in its implementation it ends up unequally protecting some

661
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:19.199
<v Speaker 2>folks at the disadvantage of other folks. That's unfortunate. I

662
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:22.920
<v Speaker 2>should have been just as protected from an unfair claim

663
00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:26.400
<v Speaker 2>against me as the people who had every legitimate right

664
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:30.559
<v Speaker 2>to feel their complaint about my talk title and feeling

665
00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:32.960
<v Speaker 2>offended by my top title. We both should have been

666
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:38.159
<v Speaker 2>equally protected. But in that case, basically the sponsor dollars

667
00:40:38.199 --> 00:40:41.960
<v Speaker 2>one that organizer said, I got to take the sponsor

668
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:43.280
<v Speaker 2>dollars and I got to kick you out.

669
00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:45.679
<v Speaker 1>That sucks.

670
00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:50.599
<v Speaker 2>And so I've seen codes of conduct go well, and

671
00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:52.400
<v Speaker 2>I've seen them go poorly, and I think that's a

672
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:55.079
<v Speaker 2>case where they went poorly and was unfortunate.

673
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:58.239
<v Speaker 1>I don't think i've ever seen them go well. I

674
00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:07.960
<v Speaker 1>much prefer if you act like a douche. Then you

675
00:41:08.119 --> 00:41:13.000
<v Speaker 1>just lose respect and people don't don't take you as seriously,

676
00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:16.199
<v Speaker 1>maybe you won't get invited back. I think that just

677
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:19.800
<v Speaker 1>natural consequences, because the whole idea of the COC is, Okay,

678
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:24.239
<v Speaker 1>we're gonna we're going to point out, draw attention to

679
00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:28.400
<v Speaker 1>and have a formal process to not call you a douche.

680
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:30.800
<v Speaker 1>Like just let somebody call them a douche, you know,

681
00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:35.760
<v Speaker 1>just just let the name calling be done and let

682
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:40.039
<v Speaker 1>people get over it. And it's you know, I guess

683
00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:41.719
<v Speaker 1>it's like if you don't know how to act like

684
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:44.960
<v Speaker 1>an adult and you don't know your audience, you're going

685
00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:46.920
<v Speaker 1>to find out that the idea that there was a

686
00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:51.639
<v Speaker 1>formal process to pick apart something you've said or done,

687
00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:57.159
<v Speaker 1>to hold a kangaroo court, that's that's all. That's all

688
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:00.480
<v Speaker 1>I see it as i've I'm I think I heard

689
00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:06.000
<v Speaker 1>it one instance where somebody made an inappropriate joke and

690
00:42:06.679 --> 00:42:12.920
<v Speaker 1>they they coced him and it was like a warning.

691
00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:15.039
<v Speaker 1>But most of what I hear and but that you

692
00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:17.960
<v Speaker 1>would do anyway, Like you don't need a COC to say,

693
00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:21.719
<v Speaker 1>hey man, that joke was a little inappropriate, especially for

694
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:24.360
<v Speaker 1>this audience and the professionalism that we're trying to have.

695
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:27.800
<v Speaker 1>We will not invite you back if you you know,

696
00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:31.719
<v Speaker 1>like have that sure, but to co see somebody and

697
00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:36.159
<v Speaker 1>then make an announcement, Okay, there was an inappropriate joke

698
00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:42.440
<v Speaker 1>in track three at twelve pm by someone, and we

699
00:42:43.239 --> 00:42:45.719
<v Speaker 1>have this part of our COC that those kinds of

700
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:49.199
<v Speaker 1>inappropriate jokes are not okay. So we just want everybody

701
00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:55.639
<v Speaker 1>to feel safe. The person has been dealt with. So

702
00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:57.119
<v Speaker 1>there's there's I'll.

703
00:42:56.960 --> 00:42:58.559
<v Speaker 2>Just say, you know, you and I do see a

704
00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:02.840
<v Speaker 2>little see this a bit different. But I'm not saying

705
00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:06.639
<v Speaker 2>I have the right perspective on this. But I think

706
00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:11.599
<v Speaker 2>Code of conducts do serve a valuable purpose in that

707
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:16.760
<v Speaker 2>they call to our attention what I wish was already

708
00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:21.559
<v Speaker 2>important to people, which is the we need to have

709
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:24.760
<v Speaker 2>more empathy in how we deal with other people. That

710
00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:28.440
<v Speaker 2>is missing, and I think it's trying to litigate empathy

711
00:43:28.599 --> 00:43:31.320
<v Speaker 2>instead of inspire empathy. And that's where I think a

712
00:43:31.400 --> 00:43:34.880
<v Speaker 2>lot of it goes wrong. Is we really wish that

713
00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:39.559
<v Speaker 2>people were just you know, better at understanding how their

714
00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:44.280
<v Speaker 2>intentional or unintentional actions were, you know, making somebody feel

715
00:43:44.360 --> 00:43:47.480
<v Speaker 2>unwelcome or unsafe. We really wish people just had that

716
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:50.119
<v Speaker 2>perspective and that we could just kind of like have

717
00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:52.320
<v Speaker 2>a quick little conversation with them and they would totally

718
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:54.039
<v Speaker 2>get it and say, you're right, I'm sorry, I shouldn't

719
00:43:54.039 --> 00:43:56.159
<v Speaker 2>have done it. But a lot of people don't a

720
00:43:56.159 --> 00:43:58.960
<v Speaker 2>lot of people don't feel that way, and so we've

721
00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:01.599
<v Speaker 2>got to litigate the empathy into the situation.

722
00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:04.400
<v Speaker 1>I think that's where a lot of it. I think

723
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:07.880
<v Speaker 1>you just pull them aside and say, hey, hey, we're

724
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:09.800
<v Speaker 1>we're not gonna you know, do you do you see

725
00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:12.440
<v Speaker 1>what was done there, We're not gonna We're not going

726
00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:14.840
<v Speaker 1>to invite you back if you know, or say like

727
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:16.840
<v Speaker 1>we'd like you to apologize. You know, I had to

728
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:18.840
<v Speaker 1>put the responsibility back on the person. If that's what

729
00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:21.480
<v Speaker 1>needs to be done. They can't they can't take the responsibility,

730
00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:23.840
<v Speaker 1>but to make a spectacle of it, you know, it's.

731
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:28.119
<v Speaker 2>Just a formative aspect for sure. But I think part

732
00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:31.239
<v Speaker 2>of the reason for the performative aspect is because this

733
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:34.199
<v Speaker 2>is still not the norm for people to take the

734
00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:37.440
<v Speaker 2>personal accountability, and so they kind of have to overcompensate.

735
00:44:37.480 --> 00:44:39.679
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying the overcompensation is good, but there is

736
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:42.519
<v Speaker 2>an over compensation because we're making up for the fact

737
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:45.119
<v Speaker 2>that this is not yet the norm, and I don't

738
00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:47.119
<v Speaker 2>know how long it'll be until it is the norm.

739
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:50.239
<v Speaker 2>But everybody really should be acting I think with that

740
00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:53.679
<v Speaker 2>empathy that at the instant that somebody points out, hey,

741
00:44:53.719 --> 00:44:55.599
<v Speaker 2>that thing that you just said or did was like

742
00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:58.079
<v Speaker 2>it was over the line, or it bothered me, or

743
00:44:58.119 --> 00:45:01.119
<v Speaker 2>it made me feel uncomfortable, that the instant reaction should

744
00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:03.760
<v Speaker 2>have been like, that wasn't my intent. I'm sorry, I'll

745
00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:05.480
<v Speaker 2>fix that joke, I won't do that in the field.

746
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:08.840
<v Speaker 2>That wasn't my intent, and I'm really sorry. We could

747
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:12.599
<v Speaker 2>resolve so many problems if people really genuinely cared to

748
00:45:12.679 --> 00:45:16.280
<v Speaker 2>be empathetic like that. And there there will be people

749
00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:19.800
<v Speaker 2>who have malicious intent who don't who who are going

750
00:45:19.880 --> 00:45:22.239
<v Speaker 2>to say things and they're not going to feel contrite.

751
00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:27.440
<v Speaker 2>Those people definitely do need the litigious part of a

752
00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:30.239
<v Speaker 2>code of Kunda, but it's sort of this one size

753
00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:35.239
<v Speaker 2>fits all paintbrush that all interactions need that same performative

754
00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:37.719
<v Speaker 2>aspect and they don't. It's really hard to know in

755
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:40.199
<v Speaker 2>advance whether a person is going to be like really

756
00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:42.719
<v Speaker 2>receptive and understanding or whether they're going to make a

757
00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:44.440
<v Speaker 2>big stink about no, no, no. I have the right

758
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:46.800
<v Speaker 2>to say whatever kind of joke I want to say.

759
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:50.559
<v Speaker 2>So I think it's really hard for me to imagine

760
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:54.840
<v Speaker 2>us being more successful without them. But I don't think

761
00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:59.280
<v Speaker 2>that we've figured out the right way to position these yet.

762
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:04.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, I I will. I don't want to drag on

763
00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:06.920
<v Speaker 1>with this, but I just want to bring up one

764
00:46:06.920 --> 00:46:10.840
<v Speaker 1>more thing. So I did a bad thing once. I

765
00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:14.480
<v Speaker 1>gave a talk at a PHP track and my talk

766
00:46:14.679 --> 00:46:18.800
<v Speaker 1>was getting started with PHP, and as you might imagine,

767
00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:25.280
<v Speaker 1>my first slide was the word don't and I would

768
00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:28.039
<v Speaker 1>say like, and I made fun of PHP the whole time.

769
00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:31.079
<v Speaker 1>I did try to give like useful information. I said

770
00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:34.480
<v Speaker 1>something like, you know, don't use PHP because it's overly complicated.

771
00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:37.159
<v Speaker 1>The way that it handles objects are terrible, you know.

772
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:42.559
<v Speaker 1>And this was PHP five or so. But if you do,

773
00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:46.119
<v Speaker 1>here's how to overcome that pitfall. Never run a PHP

774
00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:50.440
<v Speaker 1>server standalone, but if you do, here's how to overcome

775
00:46:50.440 --> 00:46:54.639
<v Speaker 1>that pitfall with a reverse proxy instead. Never use WordPress

776
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:56.239
<v Speaker 1>because your server is going to get hacked. But if

777
00:46:56.280 --> 00:47:01.000
<v Speaker 1>you do, here's how to install the security plug or

778
00:47:01.119 --> 00:47:03.800
<v Speaker 1>you know. So it was very much. A you know,

779
00:47:03.880 --> 00:47:06.000
<v Speaker 1>I don't like PHP, and I hope that you don't

780
00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:10.159
<v Speaker 1>use it. But if you choose to use PHP anyway,

781
00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:14.280
<v Speaker 1>here's some things that I've encountered that mitigate the problems.

782
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:18.000
<v Speaker 1>But it was, you know, it was in bad faith

783
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:20.599
<v Speaker 1>in the sense that I was, you know, I was

784
00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:24.559
<v Speaker 1>trolling for my own personal ego, and the conference organizer

785
00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:27.639
<v Speaker 1>pulled me aside and you know, just gave me a

786
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:31.280
<v Speaker 1>disappointed look and he said, that's not cool. Man, I'm

787
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:33.800
<v Speaker 1>going to need you to apologize. You know, what you

788
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:37.360
<v Speaker 1>did was wrong, you know it that shouldn't have gone

789
00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:42.000
<v Speaker 1>that way. And I'm embarrassed that that, you know, you

790
00:47:42.039 --> 00:47:45.800
<v Speaker 1>did that to our community. And so you know, I

791
00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:49.000
<v Speaker 1>made a public apology and I came back the next

792
00:47:49.079 --> 00:47:50.679
<v Speaker 1>year and I spoke and I didn't do something stupid

793
00:47:50.679 --> 00:47:54.400
<v Speaker 1>like that. But you know, and I think that that

794
00:47:54.639 --> 00:47:58.920
<v Speaker 1>is that's the right way to handle it, is to

795
00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:02.000
<v Speaker 1>pull people aside a deal that man and man or

796
00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:04.360
<v Speaker 1>woman a woman or what you know, man, whatever it is.

797
00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:10.840
<v Speaker 1>But you know, in the idiom man the man and

798
00:48:10.840 --> 00:48:16.639
<v Speaker 1>and to you know, to take that personal responsibility in

799
00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:19.840
<v Speaker 1>both respects. And if I had said no, he probably

800
00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:22.599
<v Speaker 1>would have said you are welcome to leave, you know,

801
00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:24.320
<v Speaker 1>and that would have been the right thing to do.

802
00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:27.760
<v Speaker 1>And so I I agree that we should have standards,

803
00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:30.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, and I agree with a lot of what

804
00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:33.719
<v Speaker 1>you're saying. I just yeah, I'll leave it at that.

805
00:48:33.719 --> 00:48:35.760
<v Speaker 1>I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I

806
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:38.119
<v Speaker 1>think that we actually have a lot in common. I

807
00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:40.360
<v Speaker 1>think we have more in common on this point than

808
00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:44.280
<v Speaker 1>we than we disagree on. But there's some some definitely

809
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:45.559
<v Speaker 1>some details we disagree on.

810
00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:49.519
<v Speaker 2>Since you brought up your story, I will flavor the

811
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:54.440
<v Speaker 2>conversation with my story that has some similarities, some strong similarities.

812
00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:57.760
<v Speaker 2>A little over a year ago, I was asked to

813
00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:04.400
<v Speaker 2>keynote a REACT conferent. Oh, I was asked to keynote

814
00:49:05.159 --> 00:49:09.559
<v Speaker 2>a REACT conference, but I was and I struggled with

815
00:49:10.519 --> 00:49:12.400
<v Speaker 2>what am I going to say to a REACT crowd?

816
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:17.119
<v Speaker 2>And I eventually decided that what I wanted to do,

817
00:49:17.480 --> 00:49:20.400
<v Speaker 2>which I knew would ruffle feathers, but what I wanted

818
00:49:20.440 --> 00:49:23.599
<v Speaker 2>to do in an attempt to be productive, is to

819
00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:28.440
<v Speaker 2>give a talk that points out all of the frustrations

820
00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:30.960
<v Speaker 2>that I have as somebody trying to come in to

821
00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:34.920
<v Speaker 2>react from the outside and learn and do something and

822
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:39.119
<v Speaker 2>specifically the frustrations I have because I can't do what

823
00:49:39.199 --> 00:49:43.119
<v Speaker 2>I need with only React. Why is React so deficient

824
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:45.639
<v Speaker 2>in the following ways that the only solutions are all

825
00:49:45.639 --> 00:49:50.079
<v Speaker 2>these external vibras and frameworks. Shouldn't this be something that

826
00:49:50.440 --> 00:49:54.199
<v Speaker 2>is prioritized by reacts? So the talk was effectively from

827
00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:57.199
<v Speaker 2>that frame of reference. Here's what I was trying to do,

828
00:49:57.719 --> 00:49:58.880
<v Speaker 2>here's my bad code.

829
00:49:58.920 --> 00:50:00.360
<v Speaker 1>But here's why I think this is.

830
00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:03.519
<v Speaker 2>It's frustrating because on the box, React should offer me

831
00:50:03.559 --> 00:50:06.079
<v Speaker 2>a solution and it doesn't or whatever. So anyway, that

832
00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:08.079
<v Speaker 2>was my talk, and it was it was. It was

833
00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:14.000
<v Speaker 2>not well received by the majority of the audience. I

834
00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:16.840
<v Speaker 2>guess we should say there were some people that really

835
00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:19.480
<v Speaker 2>appreciated it, and they were like, it's really good to

836
00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:22.239
<v Speaker 2>point out that there are some flaws that were kind

837
00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:24.480
<v Speaker 2>of missing because we're so engrossed and what React is,

838
00:50:24.519 --> 00:50:27.519
<v Speaker 2>but the outsiders don't understand it. Whatever. But I think

839
00:50:27.559 --> 00:50:32.119
<v Speaker 2>the majority of people were like, man, screw that guy.

840
00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:35.920
<v Speaker 2>And I didn't get invited back. I doubt I'll get

841
00:50:35.960 --> 00:50:38.360
<v Speaker 2>invited back. I doubt i'll be ever I'll ever be

842
00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:42.280
<v Speaker 2>invited to speak at a React conference again. So I've

843
00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:46.960
<v Speaker 2>got the same I've got a similar experience. I get it.

844
00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:48.679
<v Speaker 1>It sounds like, I mean, I don't know what it

845
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:51.199
<v Speaker 1>was like. I actually want to look up the the talk.

846
00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:54.679
<v Speaker 1>Now what was the Did they post it online or

847
00:50:54.679 --> 00:50:55.320
<v Speaker 1>did you get cut?

848
00:50:55.719 --> 00:51:00.159
<v Speaker 2>Now? I was posted online. The talk was actually framed

849
00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:04.000
<v Speaker 2>around the topic of declarative coding versus It's called weathering

850
00:51:04.039 --> 00:51:08.920
<v Speaker 2>the storm, declarative versus imperative weathering the storm. So you

851
00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:11.440
<v Speaker 2>should be able to find the video for that. All right,

852
00:51:11.480 --> 00:51:14.559
<v Speaker 2>I'll watch that today or listen to it. Okay, yeah,

853
00:51:14.760 --> 00:51:16.480
<v Speaker 2>I would be interested to see what my take is.

854
00:51:16.639 --> 00:51:17.280
<v Speaker 2>I'll let you know.

855
00:51:17.960 --> 00:51:20.159
<v Speaker 1>But you know, if I feel like you came across

856
00:51:20.199 --> 00:51:21.960
<v Speaker 1>as a bit too TROLLI er if you came across

857
00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:24.639
<v Speaker 1>the sincere, because I know in my presentation I did

858
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:29.199
<v Speaker 1>have good intentions. I mean I there were I was trolling,

859
00:51:29.239 --> 00:51:32.960
<v Speaker 1>I was egoing, but I also did honestly. You know,

860
00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:35.199
<v Speaker 1>It's like this was really frustrating to me, and this

861
00:51:35.239 --> 00:51:37.039
<v Speaker 1>is how you can solve it. But every slide was

862
00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:40.719
<v Speaker 1>don't use PHP, but if you do, which obviously that

863
00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:44.480
<v Speaker 1>was the wrong format. If I had inverted that to saying,

864
00:51:44.599 --> 00:51:46.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, there's a lot of things I like about X, Y,

865
00:51:46.519 --> 00:51:48.840
<v Speaker 1>and Z, and I think that if you use these

866
00:51:48.920 --> 00:51:51.239
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of pitfalls you avoid, and so i'd

867
00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:54.920
<v Speaker 1>actually encourage you to investigate those as you're on your journey.

868
00:51:55.039 --> 00:51:58.320
<v Speaker 1>But talking about PHPD, I could have done it in

869
00:51:58.360 --> 00:52:01.599
<v Speaker 1>a way that was much more productive. So I'll take

870
00:52:01.639 --> 00:52:07.159
<v Speaker 1>a list of that talk and i'll i'll I'll message

871
00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:11.480
<v Speaker 1>you and and and give you my my take if, if,

872
00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:14.119
<v Speaker 1>if you would be interested in that, I put myself

873
00:52:14.199 --> 00:52:17.039
<v Speaker 1>up on a you know, a high horse or anything.

874
00:52:17.239 --> 00:52:20.599
<v Speaker 1>All right, Okay, so this is this has been interesting.

875
00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:23.320
<v Speaker 1>It definitely started off and has continued in a direction

876
00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:27.639
<v Speaker 1>that I didn't expect, and I want to I want

877
00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:29.920
<v Speaker 1>to circle back around. Actually, is there anything else that's

878
00:52:29.960 --> 00:52:31.760
<v Speaker 1>on your mind right now that you wanna that you

879
00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:33.199
<v Speaker 1>want to dig into.

880
00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:38.280
<v Speaker 2>I I started off by saying that part of my

881
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:43.840
<v Speaker 2>frustration is my personal journey has included a year of unemployment,

882
00:52:44.039 --> 00:52:49.199
<v Speaker 2>which has been tremendously difficult financially and otherwise for my family,

883
00:52:49.239 --> 00:52:55.360
<v Speaker 2>and all of that offshoot from that. Not to say

884
00:52:55.519 --> 00:52:58.679
<v Speaker 2>again that I don't own any of the responsibility for

885
00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:02.039
<v Speaker 2>why some players might want to hire me, but I

886
00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:05.280
<v Speaker 2>do think there are some macro level things that I

887
00:53:05.400 --> 00:53:08.159
<v Speaker 2>believe to be true about our industry now that have

888
00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:12.280
<v Speaker 2>changed and changed rather rapidly, and I want to call

889
00:53:12.320 --> 00:53:15.039
<v Speaker 2>them out because I think they're a bad direction that

890
00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:17.840
<v Speaker 2>we've gone. And I don't know if there's any dialing

891
00:53:17.880 --> 00:53:20.239
<v Speaker 2>it back, but I just want to call this out.

892
00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:24.519
<v Speaker 2>So when I joined as an engineer, when I started

893
00:53:24.519 --> 00:53:27.440
<v Speaker 2>as an engineer back in the mid to late nineties,

894
00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:29.320
<v Speaker 2>that's kind of when I got my feet wet with

895
00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:34.039
<v Speaker 2>software engineering. And when I was joining, the industry was

896
00:53:34.519 --> 00:53:41.239
<v Speaker 2>full of a number of extremely highly regarded founding fathers

897
00:53:41.320 --> 00:53:44.440
<v Speaker 2>and mothers of the industry. There were people that had

898
00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:47.519
<v Speaker 2>been already in the industry by for thirty or forty

899
00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:51.119
<v Speaker 2>years at that point, and they were still active and

900
00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:55.840
<v Speaker 2>involved in various parts of technology and internet, web and

901
00:53:55.880 --> 00:53:59.440
<v Speaker 2>all of that, and they were in these highly regarded

902
00:53:59.480 --> 00:54:02.639
<v Speaker 2>positions at the big companies, whether they're the Googles or whatever,

903
00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:05.679
<v Speaker 2>like they you know, they held these like distinguished physicians

904
00:54:05.679 --> 00:54:11.519
<v Speaker 2>in these companies. And I joined as this brand new engineer,

905
00:54:11.559 --> 00:54:15.159
<v Speaker 2>and of course I immediately, like I so looked up to them,

906
00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:17.280
<v Speaker 2>right like I want to be like them. I want

907
00:54:17.320 --> 00:54:19.719
<v Speaker 2>to I want to do something important and impactful for

908
00:54:19.800 --> 00:54:21.599
<v Speaker 2>the world, and I want to be like them, and

909
00:54:22.039 --> 00:54:25.440
<v Speaker 2>that's not going to happen overnight. So I literally have

910
00:54:25.800 --> 00:54:30.719
<v Speaker 2>intentionally spent a lot of my effort. I've it's something

911
00:54:30.760 --> 00:54:34.079
<v Speaker 2>that I've regularly gone back to in my career over

912
00:54:34.119 --> 00:54:36.920
<v Speaker 2>the last twenty five years to try to pay my

913
00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:38.679
<v Speaker 2>dues and to try to pay it for it, and

914
00:54:38.719 --> 00:54:41.000
<v Speaker 2>to try to give back more to this industry than

915
00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:45.039
<v Speaker 2>I've taken because I wanted to follow in those footsteps

916
00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:49.119
<v Speaker 2>and I wanted to be that type of engineer for

917
00:54:49.159 --> 00:54:55.880
<v Speaker 2>this industry. What I think has happened over the last

918
00:54:56.000 --> 00:54:57.480
<v Speaker 2>and I don't think it's been long. I think it's

919
00:54:57.480 --> 00:54:59.719
<v Speaker 2>been maybe two or three years at most. It's not

920
00:54:59.760 --> 00:55:03.840
<v Speaker 2>been But I think what's happened is we've the industry

921
00:55:03.920 --> 00:55:08.400
<v Speaker 2>is basically decided that having people like that as part

922
00:55:08.559 --> 00:55:15.119
<v Speaker 2>of the conversation is not important anymore, and in fact,

923
00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:17.840
<v Speaker 2>not only is it not really all that important, it's

924
00:55:17.840 --> 00:55:23.320
<v Speaker 2>actually more of a liability. I think what we've decided.

925
00:55:24.480 --> 00:55:26.639
<v Speaker 2>The way I would describe this is, I think what

926
00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:31.199
<v Speaker 2>used to be the variance of the engineering ladder going

927
00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:34.599
<v Speaker 2>from you know you just started to you've got ten

928
00:55:34.719 --> 00:55:38.679
<v Speaker 2>or twelve or more years right above twelve fifteen years,

929
00:55:38.719 --> 00:55:43.840
<v Speaker 2>et cetera. Like that was the the variance of the

930
00:55:43.880 --> 00:55:47.280
<v Speaker 2>engineering ladder, and there were companies that would always believe

931
00:55:47.320 --> 00:55:50.199
<v Speaker 2>it was important to hire people near the top of

932
00:55:50.199 --> 00:55:53.519
<v Speaker 2>that ladder. Now I think we've shrunked that ladder so much.

933
00:55:55.400 --> 00:56:00.800
<v Speaker 2>Where from the beginning of your engineering career to when

934
00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:04.480
<v Speaker 2>you're like a season staffer principal engineer, where that used

935
00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:07.360
<v Speaker 2>to be twelve fifteen, twenty years, it's now like four

936
00:56:07.360 --> 00:56:11.079
<v Speaker 2>to six years. I literally see a job in my mind.

937
00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:13.760
<v Speaker 2>I saw job posting just the other day for a

938
00:56:13.880 --> 00:56:18.280
<v Speaker 2>staff level engineer and they said five years JavaScript experience

939
00:56:18.559 --> 00:56:21.000
<v Speaker 2>for a staff level position, and that was unheard of.

940
00:56:21.079 --> 00:56:22.679
<v Speaker 2>That would have been unheard of back in the day.

941
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:25.159
<v Speaker 2>But that's that's the new reality. I'm not saying it's

942
00:56:25.159 --> 00:56:27.679
<v Speaker 2>not a reality, which just need to embrace that. It

943
00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:31.719
<v Speaker 2>is the reality. And so because things are changing so quickly,

944
00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:36.440
<v Speaker 2>and because companies are not really valuing those those longer,

945
00:56:37.079 --> 00:56:41.400
<v Speaker 2>longer lived, and more experienced voices in the conversation, I

946
00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:44.960
<v Speaker 2>think we've seen a lot of these factors kind of

947
00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:50.639
<v Speaker 2>reducing both the pay that is available in the industry

948
00:56:50.960 --> 00:56:54.880
<v Speaker 2>and really it's become where we don't hire people anymore.

949
00:56:54.960 --> 00:57:00.599
<v Speaker 2>We hire roles. We don't hire people and Taylor what

950
00:57:00.639 --> 00:57:02.960
<v Speaker 2>we have them do based upon what their experience and

951
00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:06.880
<v Speaker 2>their skill level is. We just hire into roles and

952
00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:08.400
<v Speaker 2>if you fit in the role, grain and if you

953
00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:10.159
<v Speaker 2>don't fit in the role, we just don't hire you. Right,

954
00:57:10.679 --> 00:57:13.840
<v Speaker 2>that's a big change where we now have more supply

955
00:57:13.960 --> 00:57:18.320
<v Speaker 2>than demand. And I've looked at a whole bunch of

956
00:57:18.400 --> 00:57:22.480
<v Speaker 2>jobs that and applied to many of them that are

957
00:57:23.039 --> 00:57:27.079
<v Speaker 2>well below my level of experience at twenty five years

958
00:57:27.519 --> 00:57:31.800
<v Speaker 2>and pay well below what I was making before. And

959
00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:35.320
<v Speaker 2>I've tried to apply to those jobs and I don't

960
00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:39.480
<v Speaker 2>even get callbacks. I don't even get like interview and

961
00:57:39.639 --> 00:57:40.280
<v Speaker 2>part of you.

962
00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:45.039
<v Speaker 1>And for that, are you submitting with Microsoft word? Serious question?

963
00:57:45.519 --> 00:57:48.280
<v Speaker 2>No, I'm not submitting with that is.

964
00:57:48.280 --> 00:57:54.679
<v Speaker 1>A problem because the AI based parsers will only elevate

965
00:57:55.320 --> 00:57:57.119
<v Speaker 1>microsoftware documents.

966
00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:02.119
<v Speaker 2>Wow, that's there's a whole conversation. But let me just

967
00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:05.960
<v Speaker 2>finish my point before I get shitfield. Sorry, but those

968
00:58:06.039 --> 00:58:10.199
<v Speaker 2>companies look I think, whether they're doing it through automatic

969
00:58:10.199 --> 00:58:12.159
<v Speaker 2>filtering or whether it's a person, I think they look

970
00:58:12.199 --> 00:58:16.159
<v Speaker 2>at someone like me and they say, man, we're never

971
00:58:16.280 --> 00:58:19.239
<v Speaker 2>going to have the budget to pay him what he's

972
00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:23.239
<v Speaker 2>probably previously paid, and we're never going to have the

973
00:58:23.440 --> 00:58:28.039
<v Speaker 2>job role to take advantage of this twenty five years experience.

974
00:58:28.840 --> 00:58:31.000
<v Speaker 2>So we're not going to hire him into this lower

975
00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:34.119
<v Speaker 2>role because he won't be happy and we won't be happy.

976
00:58:35.239 --> 00:58:37.840
<v Speaker 2>And so it's not simply that, in my opinion, it's

977
00:58:37.880 --> 00:58:43.320
<v Speaker 2>not simply that you know that there's a quote unquote

978
00:58:43.320 --> 00:58:48.039
<v Speaker 2>more qualified candidate at this point. What I'm seeing, and

979
00:58:48.079 --> 00:58:49.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm not the only one, what I'm seeing is that

980
00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:51.639
<v Speaker 2>the more senior you are, the harder it is to

981
00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:54.480
<v Speaker 2>find any jobs out there because they're kind of just

982
00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:59.679
<v Speaker 2>being sunseted. They're not firing super top level you know,

983
00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:03.599
<v Speaker 2>year experienced people, but they're not hiring them anymore. They're

984
00:59:03.639 --> 00:59:07.239
<v Speaker 2>just not and they don't want to. And I feel

985
00:59:07.239 --> 00:59:08.880
<v Speaker 2>this is really troublesome.

986
00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:13.039
<v Speaker 1>It creates friction. It creates friction because you've got a

987
00:59:13.039 --> 00:59:16.480
<v Speaker 1>bunch of young kids that have you know, that are

988
00:59:16.599 --> 00:59:24.559
<v Speaker 1>senior engineers after three years of experience, right, and you

989
00:59:24.639 --> 00:59:29.039
<v Speaker 1>go into a room where you're challenging the prevailing wisdom.

990
00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:33.159
<v Speaker 1>You're not seen as, oh, this person has the wisdom

991
00:59:33.159 --> 00:59:36.519
<v Speaker 1>of the ancients. You're seen as this person doesn't know

992
00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:38.199
<v Speaker 1>what he's talking about. What a hack?

993
00:59:38.960 --> 00:59:40.760
<v Speaker 2>Right, I mean, I could be I don't know if

994
00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:43.920
<v Speaker 2>that's your experience, I think no, I'm saying that's exactly

995
00:59:43.960 --> 00:59:45.239
<v Speaker 2>what I'm what I'm seeing.

996
00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:48.760
<v Speaker 1>I had a like we've worked. This is the Jonathan

997
00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:50.920
<v Speaker 1>Blow thing. This is the Jonathan this is the collapse

998
00:59:50.920 --> 00:59:55.599
<v Speaker 1>of civilization talk by Jonathan Blow. The people who are

999
00:59:55.639 --> 00:59:59.320
<v Speaker 1>in the currently held positions are so far removed from

1000
00:59:59.320 --> 01:00:03.679
<v Speaker 1>the original knowledge that in many cases they are no

1001
01:00:03.760 --> 01:00:08.119
<v Speaker 1>longer able to connect it to the current knowledge, right, Like.

1002
01:00:08.760 --> 01:00:10.800
<v Speaker 2>This is this, appreciate it.

1003
01:00:10.800 --> 01:00:13.679
<v Speaker 1>It's like it's kind of like the inverse of the

1004
01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:19.199
<v Speaker 1>sufficient sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from from magic. Like

1005
01:00:19.280 --> 01:00:22.320
<v Speaker 1>you you sound like a soothsayer when you come in

1006
01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:24.679
<v Speaker 1>and say, you know, I mean a few years ago,

1007
01:00:24.679 --> 01:00:26.119
<v Speaker 1>it would have been if you came in and said, hey,

1008
01:00:26.119 --> 01:00:29.119
<v Speaker 1>we should use a SQL database, you know, like a

1009
01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:31.400
<v Speaker 1>few years ago, that would have been like, what, what

1010
01:00:31.519 --> 01:00:33.119
<v Speaker 1>are you? Out of the loop. It's like, no, not

1011
01:00:33.159 --> 01:00:34.920
<v Speaker 1>only out of the loop, I'm ahead of it again.

1012
01:00:36.079 --> 01:00:39.719
<v Speaker 2>Right, So I think I think what I see happening.

1013
01:00:40.039 --> 01:00:43.239
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of people that are claiming that the

1014
01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:45.880
<v Speaker 2>advent of AI is going to get rid of the

1015
01:00:45.960 --> 01:00:50.079
<v Speaker 2>junior engineer positions, and I actually think the reverse has happened.

1016
01:00:50.559 --> 01:00:55.360
<v Speaker 2>I think the advent of AI has been significantly improved

1017
01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:59.079
<v Speaker 2>the position of those entering because they are not coming

1018
01:00:59.119 --> 01:01:02.719
<v Speaker 2>into this with any prior experience about or conceptions about

1019
01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:05.800
<v Speaker 2>what engineering should be, and they're excited to use whatever

1020
01:01:05.840 --> 01:01:08.880
<v Speaker 2>tools they can, and they're excited that they get a

1021
01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:13.079
<v Speaker 2>lot of visible bang for the buck if you will quickly.

1022
01:01:14.079 --> 01:01:17.960
<v Speaker 2>Those people are way easier for companies to imagine employing

1023
01:01:18.039 --> 01:01:21.719
<v Speaker 2>right now than people who have been doing engineering the

1024
01:01:21.880 --> 01:01:25.920
<v Speaker 2>quote unquote old school way for so long and are

1025
01:01:27.360 --> 01:01:29.280
<v Speaker 2>more willing to call out the flaws.

1026
01:01:29.519 --> 01:01:29.679
<v Speaker 1>Right.

1027
01:01:30.199 --> 01:01:33.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm just not as employable because I'm not on the

1028
01:01:33.920 --> 01:01:36.840
<v Speaker 2>bandwagon of we need all of our code to be

1029
01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:40.519
<v Speaker 2>generated by AI, and the entrance into this industry are

1030
01:01:41.360 --> 01:01:44.599
<v Speaker 2>by far more interested in that, are more willing to

1031
01:01:45.320 --> 01:01:48.039
<v Speaker 2>approach that as the way to do engineering. I was

1032
01:01:48.239 --> 01:01:49.639
<v Speaker 2>told in a research.

1033
01:01:51.760 --> 01:01:57.119
<v Speaker 1>I I don't, but I don't know how anybody who's

1034
01:01:57.119 --> 01:02:00.760
<v Speaker 1>a junior could be effective with it. I guess yours

1035
01:02:01.360 --> 01:02:04.360
<v Speaker 1>has to go. The BS meter has to go off.

1036
01:02:04.360 --> 01:02:06.360
<v Speaker 1>If the BS meter has I mean, how are you

1037
01:02:06.400 --> 01:02:07.679
<v Speaker 1>going to get it because.

1038
01:02:07.719 --> 01:02:11.159
<v Speaker 2>Because they don't need it to be quality for it

1039
01:02:11.239 --> 01:02:12.599
<v Speaker 2>to ship. That's the different.

1040
01:02:12.760 --> 01:02:14.320
<v Speaker 1>But it's gotta work, like it's got to accept the

1041
01:02:14.320 --> 01:02:16.119
<v Speaker 1>form input and it's got to post it, you know,

1042
01:02:16.239 --> 01:02:18.920
<v Speaker 1>like like it has to at the bare minimum level.

1043
01:02:18.960 --> 01:02:20.199
<v Speaker 1>The code has to work now.

1044
01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:22.559
<v Speaker 2>But I will say you and I disagree with is

1045
01:02:22.599 --> 01:02:24.880
<v Speaker 2>where that bar is anymore. I don't think that the

1046
01:02:24.880 --> 01:02:27.679
<v Speaker 2>bare minimum bar is the same place today as it

1047
01:02:27.760 --> 01:02:28.639
<v Speaker 2>was five years ago.

1048
01:02:29.239 --> 01:02:32.239
<v Speaker 1>You're right, because there are plenty of website work. It

1049
01:02:32.280 --> 01:02:33.280
<v Speaker 1>doesn't that's enough.

1050
01:02:35.880 --> 01:02:39.000
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, I just think I think that they actually

1051
01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:41.599
<v Speaker 2>have an advantage. People entering the industry right now have

1052
01:02:41.719 --> 01:02:45.559
<v Speaker 2>this advantage because we did not have tools like that

1053
01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:47.880
<v Speaker 2>when I joined the industry or all along that would

1054
01:02:47.920 --> 01:02:52.519
<v Speaker 2>have so rapidly accelerated our ability to get something out,

1055
01:02:52.960 --> 01:02:56.119
<v Speaker 2>regardless of its quality, regardless of how fit it is

1056
01:02:56.159 --> 01:02:59.840
<v Speaker 2>for the task. They are just much faster at achieving

1057
01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:05.079
<v Speaker 2>any result than a more traditional engineering approach would. And

1058
01:03:05.119 --> 01:03:09.079
<v Speaker 2>I had interesting you know, there was a very recent

1059
01:03:09.159 --> 01:03:12.320
<v Speaker 2>experience where I had gone through a very prolonged job

1060
01:03:12.440 --> 01:03:15.360
<v Speaker 2>interviewing process, really thought I was going to get it.

1061
01:03:15.400 --> 01:03:18.119
<v Speaker 2>I was down at the end final interviews, and then

1062
01:03:18.199 --> 01:03:21.400
<v Speaker 2>got told that we've decided not to move forward, and

1063
01:03:21.480 --> 01:03:25.199
<v Speaker 2>the feedback they gave me was literally, we think you're

1064
01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:28.840
<v Speaker 2>too rigorous of an engineer, you're too concerned with solving

1065
01:03:28.880 --> 01:03:31.800
<v Speaker 2>the problem in the most complete way, and you're not

1066
01:03:31.880 --> 01:03:35.239
<v Speaker 2>interested in just shipping something quickly, and that you won't

1067
01:03:35.239 --> 01:03:38.760
<v Speaker 2>fit here because of that. I sat that that's just

1068
01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:41.880
<v Speaker 2>a reality. That's that's the way our industries change. And

1069
01:03:41.920 --> 01:03:46.719
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to say that there's no benefit to it,

1070
01:03:46.760 --> 01:03:49.159
<v Speaker 2>because there are reasons why our industries changed that way.

1071
01:03:49.199 --> 01:03:52.360
<v Speaker 2>But I don't think we've really come to terms with

1072
01:03:52.599 --> 01:03:56.840
<v Speaker 2>the cost of that quite yet. I think I have

1073
01:03:56.880 --> 01:03:58.199
<v Speaker 2>a lot of costs down the road.

1074
01:03:58.880 --> 01:04:01.239
<v Speaker 1>That's that's like a quote Drupele on Tundra right now,

1075
01:04:01.239 --> 01:04:05.599
<v Speaker 1>because I don't know how tapped in you are with

1076
01:04:06.280 --> 01:04:10.239
<v Speaker 1>the political space and how that has an impact on us.

1077
01:04:10.400 --> 01:04:13.760
<v Speaker 1>But interest rates are what are a large part of

1078
01:04:13.800 --> 01:04:18.639
<v Speaker 1>what is driving the need to make changes, not necessarily

1079
01:04:18.639 --> 01:04:25.039
<v Speaker 1>the motivation, because you know, people like normal human interaction.

1080
01:04:25.840 --> 01:04:29.760
<v Speaker 1>You feel upset, someone says what's wrong, you say the

1081
01:04:29.800 --> 01:04:32.480
<v Speaker 1>first thing that comes to mind. You don't. Well, maybe

1082
01:04:32.519 --> 01:04:36.000
<v Speaker 1>you personally, Kyle Simpson, you may do this from the

1083
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:41.079
<v Speaker 1>way you're speaking, but the average person doesn't doesn't recognize

1084
01:04:41.079 --> 01:04:43.519
<v Speaker 1>what's wrong. They don't know why they're angry or why

1085
01:04:43.599 --> 01:04:48.639
<v Speaker 1>they're upset. They're upset, they know they're upset. You ask them, oh,

1086
01:04:48.880 --> 01:04:51.480
<v Speaker 1>you seem like something's bugging you, what's bothering you? And

1087
01:04:51.559 --> 01:04:54.199
<v Speaker 1>they're just gonna spit off the first thing that comes

1088
01:04:54.199 --> 01:04:57.480
<v Speaker 1>to mind, which is typically the most recent thing that happened.

1089
01:04:57.519 --> 01:05:00.599
<v Speaker 1>Like they were upset, they're having a bad day. They

1090
01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:03.679
<v Speaker 1>stub their toe, So you say, why are you upset? Ugh,

1091
01:05:04.559 --> 01:05:07.239
<v Speaker 1>I stubbed my toe, you know. But no, that's not

1092
01:05:07.280 --> 01:05:09.400
<v Speaker 1>the reason you were upset. That's just the most recent

1093
01:05:09.440 --> 01:05:12.840
<v Speaker 1>thing that happened that put an impression negatively on your emotions.

1094
01:05:13.079 --> 01:05:15.039
<v Speaker 1>And I think that that's kind of what's happening in

1095
01:05:15.079 --> 01:05:22.039
<v Speaker 1>the industry in regards to this AI thing. Interest rates

1096
01:05:22.159 --> 01:05:26.880
<v Speaker 1>are the problem. Money is drying up. AI is an excuse,

1097
01:05:28.199 --> 01:05:34.239
<v Speaker 1>which paradoxically then causes more of the economic issue because

1098
01:05:34.239 --> 01:05:37.519
<v Speaker 1>then people believe that AI is the solution, Like people

1099
01:05:37.519 --> 01:05:40.159
<v Speaker 1>are not firing their employees because AI is picking up

1100
01:05:40.199 --> 01:05:44.000
<v Speaker 1>the slack. That's somebody come at me with the data

1101
01:05:44.039 --> 01:05:45.920
<v Speaker 1>that shows that that's what's happening. But I think that

1102
01:05:46.320 --> 01:05:49.519
<v Speaker 1>everyone who's done marketing for an AI company has had

1103
01:05:49.519 --> 01:05:54.320
<v Speaker 1>their article refuted on that basis. People are losing employees

1104
01:05:54.400 --> 01:05:58.639
<v Speaker 1>and tightening the belt because the interest rates have gone up.

1105
01:05:58.639 --> 01:06:00.840
<v Speaker 1>When the interest rates go up, that means that for

1106
01:06:00.920 --> 01:06:03.320
<v Speaker 1>the investors to take out the money in the first place,

1107
01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:05.920
<v Speaker 1>they actually have to have a plan to pay back

1108
01:06:06.000 --> 01:06:09.199
<v Speaker 1>the money, because when the interest rates are low, then

1109
01:06:09.239 --> 01:06:11.400
<v Speaker 1>you don't really have to pay back the money every month.

1110
01:06:11.480 --> 01:06:13.960
<v Speaker 1>You could just float on it. Like imagine that. You know,

1111
01:06:14.000 --> 01:06:16.639
<v Speaker 1>if you could get a one percent interest rate on,

1112
01:06:16.880 --> 01:06:18.760
<v Speaker 1>like you had a big project you wanted to do

1113
01:06:18.840 --> 01:06:21.519
<v Speaker 1>and you were not being really conservative with your money,

1114
01:06:21.800 --> 01:06:24.320
<v Speaker 1>interest rates were one percent, you could take out fifty

1115
01:06:24.360 --> 01:06:27.440
<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars and then you could sit on that fifty

1116
01:06:27.519 --> 01:06:31.280
<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars for the next ten years and use the

1117
01:06:31.360 --> 01:06:34.480
<v Speaker 1>money to pay back the loan and only use ten

1118
01:06:34.519 --> 01:06:36.760
<v Speaker 1>thousand of it to do whatever you wanted to do. So,

1119
01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:40.639
<v Speaker 1>if interest rates are sufficiently low and you're financially savvy,

1120
01:06:40.840 --> 01:06:42.840
<v Speaker 1>you're going to take out way more money than you

1121
01:06:43.000 --> 01:06:45.639
<v Speaker 1>need and you're going to use the extra money as

1122
01:06:45.679 --> 01:06:50.280
<v Speaker 1>a buffer. And I say financially savvy, I don't not

1123
01:06:50.280 --> 01:06:52.480
<v Speaker 1>necessarily from a moral perspective, I'm not saying that's the

1124
01:06:52.559 --> 01:06:54.639
<v Speaker 1>right thing to do, but I'm saying it's a trick

1125
01:06:54.679 --> 01:06:57.360
<v Speaker 1>you can use. You take out more money than you need,

1126
01:06:57.400 --> 01:06:59.239
<v Speaker 1>you use, you use the money as a buffer to

1127
01:06:59.239 --> 01:07:01.440
<v Speaker 1>pay off the interest rate. That's what the whole I mean.

1128
01:07:01.559 --> 01:07:03.199
<v Speaker 1>And a lot of people I think are truly evil.

1129
01:07:03.199 --> 01:07:05.400
<v Speaker 1>They get people to do this with their home equity

1130
01:07:05.440 --> 01:07:08.880
<v Speaker 1>loans to you know, take some blockchain course or some

1131
01:07:09.039 --> 01:07:11.960
<v Speaker 1>real estate course or I've got I've got a friend,

1132
01:07:12.039 --> 01:07:16.360
<v Speaker 1>Like my heart just hurts for him because he's gotten

1133
01:07:16.480 --> 01:07:19.079
<v Speaker 1>suckered in, and I'm telling him, I'm like, dude, you

1134
01:07:19.119 --> 01:07:21.800
<v Speaker 1>are getting suckered like, please stop. This is going to

1135
01:07:21.880 --> 01:07:23.400
<v Speaker 1>be so bad for your family, This is going to

1136
01:07:23.480 --> 01:07:25.960
<v Speaker 1>be so bad for you. Just please please just hear

1137
01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:30.119
<v Speaker 1>me out like you are the sucker. Like, but nobody

1138
01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:33.039
<v Speaker 1>wants to hear that, you know. Anyway, Sorry, that's a tangent,

1139
01:07:33.760 --> 01:07:34.239
<v Speaker 1>but I.

1140
01:07:35.639 --> 01:07:38.320
<v Speaker 2>Don't actually think it's super tangential. I think the zero

1141
01:07:38.400 --> 01:07:41.599
<v Speaker 2>interest rates of the last twenty years are a big,

1142
01:07:41.760 --> 01:07:46.039
<v Speaker 2>big contributing macroeconomic factor, and they allowed a kind of

1143
01:07:46.119 --> 01:07:51.760
<v Speaker 2>arbitrage like you're describing that really enabled probably fifty percent

1144
01:07:51.840 --> 01:07:54.559
<v Speaker 2>or more of this industry to exist. Many of the

1145
01:07:54.599 --> 01:07:59.679
<v Speaker 2>companies yeah that currently exist today should have failed, but

1146
01:08:00.039 --> 01:08:03.079
<v Speaker 2>didn't fail because they had a business model that was

1147
01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:07.239
<v Speaker 2>propped up only by that macroeconomic condition. And I don't

1148
01:08:07.239 --> 01:08:10.159
<v Speaker 2>think it's coming back in my lifetime. I don't think

1149
01:08:10.159 --> 01:08:10.840
<v Speaker 2>it's coming back.

1150
01:08:11.960 --> 01:08:14.360
<v Speaker 1>And the double negative on this is that what that

1151
01:08:14.480 --> 01:08:17.720
<v Speaker 1>meant was and this is actually illegal. It is illegal

1152
01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:20.079
<v Speaker 1>to well, I mean, I guess it depends on the

1153
01:08:20.079 --> 01:08:22.479
<v Speaker 1>state and at the federal level, but in general, it

1154
01:08:22.600 --> 01:08:28.000
<v Speaker 1>is illegal. It's considered an illegal, unfair business practice to

1155
01:08:28.000 --> 01:08:31.720
<v Speaker 1>put your products and services at a loss in order

1156
01:08:31.760 --> 01:08:35.359
<v Speaker 1>to extinguish competition. But that's effectively what the zero interest

1157
01:08:35.439 --> 01:08:41.359
<v Speaker 1>rates did because the profitable, the profitable businesses went out

1158
01:08:41.439 --> 01:08:45.800
<v Speaker 1>of business because they had to pay their costs that month.

1159
01:08:47.399 --> 01:08:51.399
<v Speaker 1>The businesses that had the zero interest rate loans funneled

1160
01:08:51.399 --> 01:08:55.840
<v Speaker 1>through investors, they did not have to pay their costs

1161
01:08:55.840 --> 01:09:01.239
<v Speaker 1>that month. Yeah, And so the businesses that were profitable

1162
01:09:01.960 --> 01:09:06.119
<v Speaker 1>went out of business, and the businesses that were unprofitable

1163
01:09:06.720 --> 01:09:09.079
<v Speaker 1>had an unfair advantage. And this is I mean, this

1164
01:09:09.159 --> 01:09:11.760
<v Speaker 1>goes into a whole ball of wax, but I mean,

1165
01:09:12.159 --> 01:09:14.960
<v Speaker 1>like that's the fed. It funnels into tech. Why do

1166
01:09:15.039 --> 01:09:17.680
<v Speaker 1>these tech companies from the last twenty years, why do

1167
01:09:17.760 --> 01:09:20.920
<v Speaker 1>they all parent the same message? Why is there not

1168
01:09:21.039 --> 01:09:25.119
<v Speaker 1>a single publicly traded company that has a different opinion.

1169
01:09:25.720 --> 01:09:30.399
<v Speaker 1>Why is it only privately owned companies like thirty seven

1170
01:09:30.439 --> 01:09:34.039
<v Speaker 1>Signals that have a different opinion. When the money flows

1171
01:09:34.119 --> 01:09:38.520
<v Speaker 1>that way, it is the ideology, the philosophy, the ethics,

1172
01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:41.760
<v Speaker 1>everything about it. Where the money comes from is tainted.

1173
01:09:41.880 --> 01:09:45.319
<v Speaker 1>When you've got a profitable, profitable business, your relationship is

1174
01:09:45.359 --> 01:09:50.600
<v Speaker 1>to your customer. When you have a growth opportunity, your

1175
01:09:50.600 --> 01:09:54.399
<v Speaker 1>relationship is literally to the US government. You were getting

1176
01:09:54.399 --> 01:09:57.279
<v Speaker 1>your money from the FED. That is where you know,

1177
01:09:57.560 --> 01:10:02.479
<v Speaker 1>that's where it all goes back to. You may have

1178
01:10:02.520 --> 01:10:04.720
<v Speaker 1>a different opinion on that or whatever, and I don't.

1179
01:10:04.720 --> 01:10:06.039
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to push that any.

1180
01:10:05.880 --> 01:10:11.920
<v Speaker 2>Further, but that's no I think I think the point

1181
01:10:12.039 --> 01:10:15.199
<v Speaker 2>is well made. I don't have much more to say

1182
01:10:15.319 --> 01:10:19.239
<v Speaker 2>about the employment industry, but I just hope that people

1183
01:10:19.560 --> 01:10:23.800
<v Speaker 2>are thinking more about like the both the literal and

1184
01:10:23.840 --> 01:10:28.479
<v Speaker 2>the figurative costs here. Yeah, And I'm personally just going

1185
01:10:28.560 --> 01:10:33.199
<v Speaker 2>to have to keep trying to find a way to

1186
01:10:33.359 --> 01:10:35.800
<v Speaker 2>invent a job because I don't think that I'm going

1187
01:10:35.840 --> 01:10:38.640
<v Speaker 2>to find the job. It's kind of the reality that

1188
01:10:38.680 --> 01:10:43.159
<v Speaker 2>I've come up up against. I need to wrap probably here.

1189
01:10:45.520 --> 01:10:49.600
<v Speaker 2>But I do think that this is a conversation that

1190
01:10:49.640 --> 01:10:51.840
<v Speaker 2>I hope maybe you'll have with even other people on

1191
01:10:51.880 --> 01:10:55.000
<v Speaker 2>this podcast. Bring people on and ask them their perspectives

1192
01:10:55.000 --> 01:10:57.960
<v Speaker 2>on these things. Is it might be different than mine?

1193
01:10:58.199 --> 01:11:01.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I think because because I've had, you know,

1194
01:11:01.479 --> 01:11:04.880
<v Speaker 1>even some real world interactions with you over the years. Uh,

1195
01:11:04.920 --> 01:11:07.680
<v Speaker 1>it's a lot easier for for me to to have

1196
01:11:07.720 --> 01:11:09.920
<v Speaker 1>some real talk with you. You know a lot of

1197
01:11:09.920 --> 01:11:12.239
<v Speaker 1>the people that we have on the show that that

1198
01:11:12.359 --> 01:11:16.159
<v Speaker 1>real talk is not and and and yeah, and it's

1199
01:11:16.199 --> 01:11:19.359
<v Speaker 1>and it's hard. It's hard to navigate because people have

1200
01:11:19.640 --> 01:11:21.880
<v Speaker 1>Some people are high text communicators and some people are

1201
01:11:21.880 --> 01:11:24.760
<v Speaker 1>low context communicators. You and I were low context communicators,

1202
01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:27.199
<v Speaker 1>and that makes it a good pairing. That is a

1203
01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:29.359
<v Speaker 1>very bad pairing when I get on with a high

1204
01:11:29.359 --> 01:11:33.640
<v Speaker 1>context communicator because I'm not intuitive and I take things

1205
01:11:33.640 --> 01:11:38.479
<v Speaker 1>that's face value. I don't read signals, you know, so

1206
01:11:38.479 --> 01:11:40.560
<v Speaker 1>so this anyway, Yeah, I don't, I don't wanna. I

1207
01:11:40.600 --> 01:11:44.760
<v Speaker 1>don't wanna monopolize your Actually, no time, I absolutely do.

1208
01:11:44.880 --> 01:11:49.199
<v Speaker 2>But I've appreciated that conversations today today was was was

1209
01:11:49.239 --> 01:11:53.439
<v Speaker 2>really engaging. I hope, I hope it put some thoughts

1210
01:11:53.439 --> 01:11:55.960
<v Speaker 2>in people that that they'll chew on as they listen

1211
01:11:56.000 --> 01:11:57.399
<v Speaker 2>to this episode.

1212
01:11:57.960 --> 01:12:01.880
<v Speaker 1>All right, well, uh, thanks very much for coming on

1213
01:12:02.079 --> 01:12:04.439
<v Speaker 1>and sharing about that. Like I said, it took a

1214
01:12:04.439 --> 01:12:07.039
<v Speaker 1>different direction than I was thinking. Some of the directions

1215
01:12:07.039 --> 01:12:09.239
<v Speaker 1>loop back around to what I some things I thought

1216
01:12:09.239 --> 01:12:10.760
<v Speaker 1>we would talk about. I thought were going to be

1217
01:12:10.840 --> 01:12:13.439
<v Speaker 1>talking more about industry issues by day, you know, kind

1218
01:12:13.479 --> 01:12:15.840
<v Speaker 1>of seeing how it all comes together, like the personal

1219
01:12:16.600 --> 01:12:20.680
<v Speaker 1>development and culture and ethos and and you know the

1220
01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:23.319
<v Speaker 1>way of interacting and seeing with the world, plus the

1221
01:12:23.399 --> 01:12:29.119
<v Speaker 1>change and shift and culture and all that kind of culminating. Yeah,

1222
01:12:29.159 --> 01:12:31.039
<v Speaker 1>so thanks for coming on. I guess we'll go ahead

1223
01:12:31.039 --> 01:12:35.920
<v Speaker 1>and move on to picks then, and I'll go first.

1224
01:12:36.520 --> 01:12:39.800
<v Speaker 1>So I know so many people right now, This is

1225
01:12:39.840 --> 01:12:41.479
<v Speaker 1>this is what's blowing my mind. It makes me really

1226
01:12:41.520 --> 01:12:43.840
<v Speaker 1>worried because you know, I myself am at risk. I

1227
01:12:44.920 --> 01:12:48.000
<v Speaker 1>work independently. I work for a few different companies, but

1228
01:12:48.960 --> 01:12:57.079
<v Speaker 1>it would be as the economic situation changes, I'm at

1229
01:12:57.159 --> 01:13:03.279
<v Speaker 1>risk and I could be in an unfavorable position myself.

1230
01:13:04.239 --> 01:13:08.600
<v Speaker 1>And I know so many people that are highly qualified

1231
01:13:08.640 --> 01:13:11.319
<v Speaker 1>people that if I were hiring, I would hire them.

1232
01:13:11.600 --> 01:13:14.920
<v Speaker 1>I met this guy to meet up. He is, you know,

1233
01:13:14.960 --> 01:13:18.000
<v Speaker 1>there's probably like the ten smartest people I've ever met.

1234
01:13:18.399 --> 01:13:20.920
<v Speaker 1>And this guy is so weird now because now there's

1235
01:13:20.920 --> 01:13:24.000
<v Speaker 1>nobody except the Internet that I'm talking to. It's totally

1236
01:13:24.039 --> 01:13:30.560
<v Speaker 1>different vibe. But there's he's probably one of the ten

1237
01:13:30.600 --> 01:13:32.560
<v Speaker 1>smartest people I've ever met, just in terms of like

1238
01:13:32.600 --> 01:13:34.920
<v Speaker 1>the way that he can reason about things. I mean

1239
01:13:34.960 --> 01:13:37.720
<v Speaker 1>not just his knowledge, but like his ability to intuit

1240
01:13:37.800 --> 01:13:42.079
<v Speaker 1>patterns and connect the dots right. And he works at

1241
01:13:42.079 --> 01:13:46.399
<v Speaker 1>an Amazon warehouse and he also works on a compiler,

1242
01:13:47.359 --> 01:13:50.520
<v Speaker 1>and he is struggling to get a job for some

1243
01:13:50.560 --> 01:13:54.920
<v Speaker 1>of the same reasons that Kyle was mentioning, where he's

1244
01:13:55.199 --> 01:13:59.479
<v Speaker 1>overqualified and yet has no industry experience, like the things

1245
01:13:59.520 --> 01:14:01.560
<v Speaker 1>that he can the things that he can work on.

1246
01:14:01.920 --> 01:14:06.039
<v Speaker 1>He's overqualified for the positions that he's applying for and

1247
01:14:10.640 --> 01:14:13.800
<v Speaker 1>under under experience in terms of what could be shown

1248
01:14:13.840 --> 01:14:16.439
<v Speaker 1>on a resume. So it's just like this weird limbo

1249
01:14:16.560 --> 01:14:19.520
<v Speaker 1>and he's not the only one. And I'm going to

1250
01:14:19.560 --> 01:14:23.239
<v Speaker 1>share some of his his work for fun. For fun,

1251
01:14:23.800 --> 01:14:26.239
<v Speaker 1>Walmart had released a paper about their search algorithm and

1252
01:14:26.279 --> 01:14:30.560
<v Speaker 1>he noticed some technical issues with it, and he created

1253
01:14:30.720 --> 01:14:36.560
<v Speaker 1>one of the most masterful presentations I've ever seen showing

1254
01:14:37.000 --> 01:14:42.520
<v Speaker 1>how applying different techniques would yield significant benefits. And this

1255
01:14:42.600 --> 01:14:44.920
<v Speaker 1>is actually significant because it's Walmart and it's search for

1256
01:14:44.960 --> 01:14:49.720
<v Speaker 1>their autocomplete, so it's not it's not like a I mean,

1257
01:14:50.039 --> 01:14:57.680
<v Speaker 1>it's a significant problem, you know, it's Anyway, he just

1258
01:14:57.760 --> 01:15:00.159
<v Speaker 1>one of the most amazing things I've ever seen. And

1259
01:15:00.319 --> 01:15:03.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to post some links to that. His handle

1260
01:15:04.000 --> 01:15:07.680
<v Speaker 1>is valid Ark. But this is a guy that if

1261
01:15:07.720 --> 01:15:09.439
<v Speaker 1>I were, if I were hiring, I would totally want

1262
01:15:09.479 --> 01:15:11.039
<v Speaker 1>him on my team. I wouldn't be able to use

1263
01:15:11.039 --> 01:15:12.960
<v Speaker 1>him to his full capacity, but totally want them on

1264
01:15:12.960 --> 01:15:14.279
<v Speaker 1>on the team. And I've I've done a little bit

1265
01:15:14.279 --> 01:15:16.079
<v Speaker 1>of work with him on a on a side project

1266
01:15:16.079 --> 01:15:19.479
<v Speaker 1>and is very satisfied. Anyway, And I know other people

1267
01:15:19.520 --> 01:15:22.239
<v Speaker 1>like this. I know several other people that do not

1268
01:15:22.319 --> 01:15:25.600
<v Speaker 1>have jobs right now that are top tier engineers. They

1269
01:15:25.640 --> 01:15:28.880
<v Speaker 1>are on the top shelf. They are the people that

1270
01:15:29.000 --> 01:15:31.680
<v Speaker 1>I would want to hire, and they cannot find work.

1271
01:15:31.720 --> 01:15:33.600
<v Speaker 1>And this is the strangest thing in the world to me.

1272
01:15:34.039 --> 01:15:37.680
<v Speaker 1>So anyway, I was the pick. There was more than

1273
01:15:37.680 --> 01:15:41.319
<v Speaker 1>anything else is that the Walmart paper and then oh, whoops,

1274
01:15:41.319 --> 01:15:45.239
<v Speaker 1>I actually didn't link to the correct the Let me

1275
01:15:45.359 --> 01:15:50.359
<v Speaker 1>let me see I can link to this correctly, the

1276
01:15:50.439 --> 01:15:55.600
<v Speaker 1>link to this. Okay, there we are, that's the correct

1277
01:15:55.680 --> 01:16:01.199
<v Speaker 1>link for the other piece there. And then also, uh uh,

1278
01:16:01.520 --> 01:16:03.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, since we're since we're all alone now and

1279
01:16:03.840 --> 01:16:05.760
<v Speaker 1>it's just me and no one else can be blamed.

1280
01:16:06.680 --> 01:16:09.760
<v Speaker 1>My my other pick is going to be I don't

1281
01:16:10.000 --> 01:16:11.439
<v Speaker 1>like I kind of want to couch this. I kind

1282
01:16:11.439 --> 01:16:15.479
<v Speaker 1>of want to don't. I don't know, but I I don't.

1283
01:16:15.520 --> 01:16:17.039
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if this is going to come out

1284
01:16:17.039 --> 01:16:19.600
<v Speaker 1>before the election. I think it will. I don't think

1285
01:16:19.600 --> 01:16:21.359
<v Speaker 1>our lead times on the episodes are that long right now,

1286
01:16:21.359 --> 01:16:23.760
<v Speaker 1>I have to go back and check. But I would

1287
01:16:23.840 --> 01:16:30.279
<v Speaker 1>encourage everybody to reconsider what you think you know. I like, No,

1288
01:16:30.359 --> 01:16:31.840
<v Speaker 1>I don't even want you to reconsider what you think

1289
01:16:31.880 --> 01:16:33.560
<v Speaker 1>you know. What I want, what I want for people

1290
01:16:33.600 --> 01:16:36.159
<v Speaker 1>to do. What would what would make me so incredibly

1291
01:16:36.199 --> 01:16:40.000
<v Speaker 1>happy is if you know, just one person goes out

1292
01:16:40.039 --> 01:16:43.119
<v Speaker 1>there and looks up actual source videos. Take the person

1293
01:16:43.199 --> 01:16:46.760
<v Speaker 1>that your hate is targeted towards, go look up the

1294
01:16:46.800 --> 01:16:51.920
<v Speaker 1>source videos, and see what that person actually says. For

1295
01:16:52.039 --> 01:16:57.239
<v Speaker 1>the whole sentence, because I've seen some I don't know

1296
01:16:57.279 --> 01:16:59.279
<v Speaker 1>if it's AI generated or what, but I've seen some

1297
01:16:59.399 --> 01:17:03.600
<v Speaker 1>content that it's not parody content, that's actual content. It's

1298
01:17:03.600 --> 01:17:07.279
<v Speaker 1>being put out there that is removing words like not

1299
01:17:08.439 --> 01:17:13.760
<v Speaker 1>from the video and and and then being you know,

1300
01:17:13.840 --> 01:17:17.119
<v Speaker 1>recycled into I think a lot of people have some

1301
01:17:17.319 --> 01:17:25.319
<v Speaker 1>very wrong misconceptions about particular events and particular things that

1302
01:17:25.359 --> 01:17:28.039
<v Speaker 1>have been said in particular like a lot of the

1303
01:17:28.039 --> 01:17:33.239
<v Speaker 1>particulars are very very skewed. So whatever your greatest bias

1304
01:17:33.520 --> 01:17:42.319
<v Speaker 1>is against or four your candidate, go just watch the

1305
01:17:42.399 --> 01:17:45.199
<v Speaker 1>video and watch like the whole sixty second clip, the

1306
01:17:45.319 --> 01:17:48.880
<v Speaker 1>thirty seconds before, the thirty seconds after of what they're

1307
01:17:49.039 --> 01:17:53.159
<v Speaker 1>actually saying, and see if it lines up with what

1308
01:17:53.199 --> 01:17:56.159
<v Speaker 1>you believe that you have been taught that they are saying.

1309
01:17:56.560 --> 01:17:59.560
<v Speaker 1>Because I guarantee you, for many of you, if you

1310
01:17:59.640 --> 01:18:04.239
<v Speaker 1>do the at no matter which side you're on, you

1311
01:18:04.359 --> 01:18:06.760
<v Speaker 1>are going to have your eyes opened, and it might

1312
01:18:06.960 --> 01:18:10.840
<v Speaker 1>open up enough to cause some reconsideration. I do think

1313
01:18:10.880 --> 01:18:13.720
<v Speaker 1>that this election is very strange. I think there's a

1314
01:18:13.760 --> 01:18:16.399
<v Speaker 1>lot of anomalies that have led up to it. I

1315
01:18:16.439 --> 01:18:20.600
<v Speaker 1>think that something is wrong in the US system right now.

1316
01:18:20.640 --> 01:18:25.720
<v Speaker 1>I think it's dangerously wrong. And you know, and if

1317
01:18:25.720 --> 01:18:29.479
<v Speaker 1>you want to make a quick buck, Elon has announced

1318
01:18:29.479 --> 01:18:33.000
<v Speaker 1>a program on Twitter where you can make money by

1319
01:18:33.279 --> 01:18:36.600
<v Speaker 1>registering people to vote. And as far as I know,

1320
01:18:37.479 --> 01:18:40.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't think that there's a stipulation on that they

1321
01:18:40.960 --> 01:18:44.039
<v Speaker 1>have to be for a particular candidacy. The position is

1322
01:18:44.079 --> 01:18:49.560
<v Speaker 1>a freedom of speech position, but I don't believe that

1323
01:18:49.600 --> 01:18:52.359
<v Speaker 1>you have to subscribe to a particular candidate in order

1324
01:18:52.399 --> 01:18:56.039
<v Speaker 1>to take advantage of that offer. So basically, forty seven

1325
01:18:56.079 --> 01:18:59.279
<v Speaker 1>million dollars is up for grabs. That's forty seven dollars

1326
01:18:59.680 --> 01:19:07.800
<v Speaker 1>per registration is up for grabs for anybody who goes

1327
01:19:07.840 --> 01:19:13.560
<v Speaker 1>through whatever online tool they have inviting it becomes the

1328
01:19:13.600 --> 01:19:15.960
<v Speaker 1>referral for the registration something like that. I don't know

1329
01:19:16.000 --> 01:19:20.279
<v Speaker 1>all the details, but I think it's anyway, So I

1330
01:19:20.640 --> 01:19:24.319
<v Speaker 1>put that out there. So with that all said, thanks

1331
01:19:24.319 --> 01:19:27.119
<v Speaker 1>for tuning in. I hope that this was a good episode.

1332
01:19:27.840 --> 01:19:31.199
<v Speaker 1>I hope that that this has a positive impact overall.

1333
01:19:31.199 --> 01:19:32.560
<v Speaker 1>I know I did a little bit of ranting there

1334
01:19:32.600 --> 01:19:35.000
<v Speaker 1>and whatnot, but I hope this is a positive impact overall.

1335
01:19:35.600 --> 01:19:38.079
<v Speaker 1>And y'all have a good one. I'll catch you later.

1336
01:19:38.800 --> 01:19:39.319
<v Speaker 1>Audios