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<v Speaker 1>And a book everyone is going to want to read

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<v Speaker 1>and probably won't be able to put down. Welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>the fifty five carse Morning Show. Author Michael Kanal, and

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<v Speaker 1>you probably have read his other books, The author of

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<v Speaker 1>a Brotherhood Betrayed, The Man Behind The Rise and Fall

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<v Speaker 1>of Murder, Inc. As well as three other works in nonfiction.

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<v Speaker 1>Former editor of New York Times and contributed to The

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<v Speaker 1>New Yorker, among other publications, he has written a new

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<v Speaker 1>amazing book, Blood and the Badge, The Mafia, Two killer

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<v Speaker 1>cops and a scandal that shocked the nation. Welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>the fifty five Cars Morning Show, Michael Canal.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning, Brian, Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>So the subject matters of this book, and my understanding

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<v Speaker 1>is there have been other books written about Lewis Epplito

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<v Speaker 1>and Stephen Kara Koppa, the two New York cops that

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<v Speaker 1>are the subject matter of the book, but yours is

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<v Speaker 1>by far the definitive account of what they did and

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<v Speaker 1>the crimes that they were engaged in while they were

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<v Speaker 1>officers with the New York Police Department, so says even

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<v Speaker 1>the former chief of the Rackets Division, a guy who

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<v Speaker 1>wrote a book about the same two guys. Said, man,

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<v Speaker 1>you uncovered stuff that I had no idea about. Tell

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<v Speaker 1>us a little bit about these two police officers.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Louis Eppolito and Stephen Kara Kappa were high ranking,

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<v Speaker 2>decorated New York City detectives. They were not just cops,

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<v Speaker 2>but really elite detectives, and in the late eighties and

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<v Speaker 2>early nineties they were on the mafia payroll. They were

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<v Speaker 2>paid a stipend of four thousand dollars a month to

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<v Speaker 2>pass sensitive police information to the Lucse crime family. Who

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<v Speaker 2>was whose phones were being tapped, who was under surveillance,

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<v Speaker 2>who was about to be arrested, and most importantly, they

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<v Speaker 2>used the police intelligence to identify who in the mafia

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<v Speaker 2>ranks was a betrayer, who was a rat scol who

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<v Speaker 2>was secretly cooperating with the government. And what's more, once

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<v Speaker 2>those rats were identified, these two detectives helped to facilitate

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<v Speaker 2>their murders and in at least one case, they pulled

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<v Speaker 2>the trigger themselves.

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<v Speaker 1>WHOA, that's writing stuff and the idea that they have

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<v Speaker 1>all this inside information, Given how high up they were

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<v Speaker 1>in the New York Police Department, how much damage did

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<v Speaker 1>they do and how long did this this last that

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<v Speaker 1>they were they were getting away with it.

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<v Speaker 2>They got away with it for more than a decade.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it was set an outrageous, brazen act. And

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I think people, you know, people knew that

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<v Speaker 2>these were that Louis Eppolito was what they call a

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<v Speaker 2>dirty cop, and you know, some low level of corruption

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<v Speaker 2>was was pretty common in the NYPD at that time.

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<v Speaker 2>But nobody, nobody could have conceived of them working or

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<v Speaker 2>the mafia and actually committing murders for the mafia.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's really unfathomable. I mean, I can understand, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the payoff, because we're all kind of used to that's

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<v Speaker 1>a subject matter of so many Hollywood movies. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>you kind of lose count. But that they were actively

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<v Speaker 1>engaged in work for the Lukezy crime family is amazing.

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<v Speaker 1>Now they were ultimately brought to justice, I understand, how

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<v Speaker 1>do they get caught ultimately and how they ultimately get prosecuted.

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<v Speaker 2>The amazing thing is that they weren't caught for so long.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, Louis Eplito was caught red handed passing a

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<v Speaker 2>police file to a Gambino crime family heroin smuggler. The

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<v Speaker 2>police rated this this man's home and found his own

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<v Speaker 2>police file there. He had his own police file in

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<v Speaker 2>his possession, and they found Louis ep Alito's fingerprints on

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<v Speaker 2>the file. Amazingly, Internal Affairs Division dismissed the case. They

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<v Speaker 2>acquitted him. The FEDS, the FBI and federal prosecutors began

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<v Speaker 2>to understand what these men were up to, but did

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<v Speaker 2>amazingly did not prosecute them because it would have corrupted

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<v Speaker 2>other cases they were working on. And so it appeared

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<v Speaker 2>that these two men were going to get off. They retired,

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<v Speaker 2>they collected their police pensions, They moved to Las Vegas,

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<v Speaker 2>and Louis Epolito used his retirement years to launch a

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<v Speaker 2>movie career. He had small parts in a dozen films.

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<v Speaker 2>And then a detective back in New York, a detective

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<v Speaker 2>named Tommy Dade, who was getting set to retire, just

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<v Speaker 2>happened to stumble into some evidence and he took that

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<v Speaker 2>evidence to the Brooklyn DA's office and they revived this

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<v Speaker 2>investigation and had had sat dormant for years.

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<v Speaker 1>Well did any of the I have to imagine, certainly

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<v Speaker 1>correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sort of presuming that

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<v Speaker 1>members of the Lukazi crime family at some point or another,

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<v Speaker 1>some were prosecuted or caught or you know, submitted to justice,

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<v Speaker 1>that they would have advised the authorities that these two

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<v Speaker 1>dirty cops were helping out and you know, maybe to

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<v Speaker 1>reduce the time that they would have to serve, or

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<v Speaker 1>to lessen their sentence or something. But it seems to

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<v Speaker 1>me that that was that would be a low hanging

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<v Speaker 1>fruit for someone to try to better his situation if

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<v Speaker 1>he was arrested.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you're right, that's exactly what happened. The man who

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<v Speaker 2>was essentially their patrons in the Lucas crime family, a

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<v Speaker 2>man named gas Pipe Kso he flipped. He had spent

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<v Speaker 2>most of his adult life killing informants and then he

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<v Speaker 2>became the biggest informant of all. And he was all

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<v Speaker 2>set to testify against these these two detectives, and then

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<v Speaker 2>something unexpected happened. Gas Pipe began to bad mouth the

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<v Speaker 2>other the other people who had flipped. He began to

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<v Speaker 2>bad mouth in particular Sammy the Bold Ravana, who was

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<v Speaker 2>critical to the to the prosecution of John Gottie, and

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<v Speaker 2>he called uh Gravano a liar. Now, this panicked the

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<v Speaker 2>prosecutors because they did not want that prosecution to be

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<v Speaker 2>called into question. So what how did they solve that problem?

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<v Speaker 2>They solved it by ripping up, ripping up gas Pipe

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<v Speaker 2>Casso's polea agreement and sending him to Supermax prison. So

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<v Speaker 2>who was the beneficiary of that? The two detectives, because

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<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden there was nobody to testify against them.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my, it's amazing how that unfolds. Gas Pipe. I

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<v Speaker 1>got to ask, where the hell did that name come from?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, his father's nickname was was gas pipe Is. His

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<v Speaker 2>father worked down on the docks in Brooklyn and supposedly

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<v Speaker 2>used a you know, used an iron pipe to enforce

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<v Speaker 2>his rules. And the son, the son inherited the nickname,

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<v Speaker 2>but he didn't particularly like the nickname, and so his friends,

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<v Speaker 2>his friends didn't use that nickname as presence.

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<v Speaker 1>How about that?

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<v Speaker 2>Now?

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<v Speaker 1>Did this did these guys, in their capers and their

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<v Speaker 1>antics and they're being involved with murder and working with

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<v Speaker 1>organized crime resultant caused any reforms to come about in

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<v Speaker 1>the New York Police Department? Or was this just another

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<v Speaker 1>couple of characters and bad apples in the barrel that

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<v Speaker 1>they were trying at least to ferret out. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking of like I don't know, like a movie

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<v Speaker 1>like Cerproco or something, because this kind of thing was

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<v Speaker 1>was was obviously a prevalent thing, shaking people down, taking

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<v Speaker 1>money from purpose and being paid off because it's sort

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<v Speaker 1>of common in the old days.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't know that it

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<v Speaker 2>caused it caused there to be any reforms. I think

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<v Speaker 2>I think what happened is that they got away with

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of dirty stuff because of all the corruption

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<v Speaker 2>in cases that had come before them, Serpaco, the Napp,

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<v Speaker 2>the famous Nap Commission, And I think the NYPD, if

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<v Speaker 2>they had wanted to, would could have sussed out what

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<v Speaker 2>these detectives were doing. But they really didn't want another scandal.

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<v Speaker 2>They really didn't have the appetite for any more newspaper headlines,

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<v Speaker 2>and so they kind of quietly tried to sweep all

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<v Speaker 2>of us under the rug.

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<v Speaker 1>Gotcha, Well, you mentioned earlier one of them was sort

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<v Speaker 1>of known to be a quote unquote dirty cop, not

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<v Speaker 1>to the level of murder, but was there I guess

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<v Speaker 1>that culture of not saying anything within the New York

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<v Speaker 1>Police Department. You know, you don't brat rat out a

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<v Speaker 1>brother officer, even if it's bad for everybody else that

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<v Speaker 1>that that culture existed during this period of time one percent.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean when when Tommy Dad's the detective that I

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned who stumbled into the into that evidence, when he

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<v Speaker 2>began to investigate this this case, he got a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of heat from other police officers. You know, you don't

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<v Speaker 2>you don't go after one of your own, but he persisted. Well.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the reasons Michael Vecchioni, the former chief of

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<v Speaker 1>the Rackets Division who did write the other book, gave

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<v Speaker 1>you so much credit is because you were able to

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<v Speaker 1>actually speak with some of the mobsters that were working

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<v Speaker 1>with these two cops, which had never happened before. How

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<v Speaker 1>is it that you were able to get access to

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<v Speaker 1>those guys.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean I spoke to Sammy the boll Gravano,

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<v Speaker 2>and I spoke to a former Colombo hit man. And

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, one of the things that really surprised me

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<v Speaker 2>about doing this reporting and research for this book is

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<v Speaker 2>that the cops and the gangsters all know each other,

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<v Speaker 2>and in many cases they're friends. You know, they grew

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<v Speaker 2>up together in the old neighborhoods and went to the

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<v Speaker 2>same schools, and they they to this day, they drink

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<v Speaker 2>in the same bars, and it's a little bit arbitrary

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<v Speaker 2>in some cases as to whether a kid would become

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<v Speaker 2>a cop or whether he would join a crime family.

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<v Speaker 2>And so it's you know, very they're very tight knit

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<v Speaker 2>and they all know each other. So I actually found

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<v Speaker 2>those sources through the law enforcement people that I had interviewed.

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<v Speaker 1>How about that? And I suppose, I mean, after the

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<v Speaker 1>passage of time, that it wouldn't be as much of

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<v Speaker 1>a big deal for them to actually reveal some of

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<v Speaker 1>these quote unquote secrets to you for publication because their

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<v Speaker 1>careers are over and they're in their retirement. I presume

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<v Speaker 1>as well.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's exactly right, Brian. I mean, they probably

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't have opened up to me and talked to me

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<v Speaker 2>ten years ago or fifteen years ago. But the two

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<v Speaker 2>detectives in question went to jail. They died in jail.

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<v Speaker 2>The DEA agents, FBI agents and detectives that I spoke

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<v Speaker 2>to are pretty much all retired. Some time has passed,

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<v Speaker 2>and so they were I think they trusted me and

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<v Speaker 2>they were willing to open up and just I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it was really an amazing experience because once they started

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<v Speaker 2>to talk to me, these amazing stories came out, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>just every time they would tell me a story, I

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<v Speaker 2>would think that could be a Netflix series. Yeah, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and they never did. It was sort of

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<v Speaker 2>their code to not talk about these things. But when

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<v Speaker 2>they did, you know, they really just really revealed a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, this is one of those truth is

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<v Speaker 1>almost a stranger than fiction kind of things. It's certainly

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<v Speaker 1>a template for any corrupt cop kind of movie, and

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<v Speaker 1>I imagine probably will end up being a Netflix series.

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<v Speaker 1>It's fascinating, fascinating stuff, and I appreciate you spending time

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<v Speaker 1>with my listeners to me about the book, Blood and

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<v Speaker 1>the Badge, the Mafia, two killer cops, and the scandal

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<v Speaker 1>of the shock the Nation. I know my listeners are

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<v Speaker 1>going to buy these up because it's just such an

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<v Speaker 1>amazing story. Michael Kennelly, author, It's been a pleasure speaking

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<v Speaker 1>with you, and thanks for getting this down. I guess

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<v Speaker 1>as an author, real quick, I have to know this

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<v Speaker 1>given that other books have been written about these guys,

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<v Speaker 1>as I mentioned several times, Now, what motivated you as

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<v Speaker 1>an author to pursue this particular story and write another book?

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<v Speaker 1>How did I mean, did you have a feeling that

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<v Speaker 1>there was more out there that people just hadn't touched on,

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<v Speaker 1>or did it just fascinate you as a subject matter.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, that's it exactly. I mean, this has been

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<v Speaker 2>this topic has been written them out before, as you said,

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<v Speaker 2>but nobody has really written the big comprehensive book about it.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was pretty confident that I could I could

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<v Speaker 2>do that, that I that I could get people to

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<v Speaker 2>talk to me and really do a deep dive into it.

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<v Speaker 2>And happily, I think that's the way it.

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<v Speaker 1>Turned out, apparently so well received on the reporting sites,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm sure they'll come and knocking on your door

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<v Speaker 1>to turn it into some sort of movie or series, sir,

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<v Speaker 1>and I wish you the best of walk on that,

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<v Speaker 1>Michael Canal, real pleasure to have you on. And your

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<v Speaker 1>book is on my blog page fifty about casy dot

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<v Speaker 1>com with the links of people can buy a copy

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<v Speaker 1>and I'll encourage them to do that.