Speaker 1: Oh, so where is it that? All right? There? We are,
all right, so let's go ahead. How you doing?
Speaker 2: Man?
Speaker 3: Hold on, Hold on a second, I shouldn't have but
I'm gonna bring up in a second we shouldn't be
able to see.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to make.
Speaker 4: Sure you know how to do it to prevent them
from flashing you.
Speaker 1: Like, Yes, that's what I'm trying to set it up as.
Speaker 4: So you just go up real quick and he'll be
in the background.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 3: No, there's there's a set where I can I can
lay out the layout without even having to do that right,
Yes too, and they'll just be audio.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I'm just trying to fix that up here. In
the meantime, I'm gonna I'm gonna get this together. What
would you just going through on your last.
Speaker 4: Live I was going to go on what the early
Christian writer said about Daniel's trinitarianism messianism, but God had
me go super I mean it was super and depth
on the internal, reckless structure of the Bible as proof
of its inspirations. It was I would reckon meant all
Christians to watch it. Really, it's the way God designed
these books. You can see God's hand behind them, but
for his glory. It's it's reckless, it's collection. But without
saying I'll follow your lead, mister, I guess Jay forgot us.
What happened to shoot?
Speaker 1: Maybe you sleep? He's sleep, he knocked out.
Speaker 4: This is what it is?
Speaker 1: All right? There we go. Now that works, There we go,
So now I can do it.
Speaker 4: The handsome light brown hair dude, he's right there.
Speaker 5: I wrote down the wrong days, so I thought it
was tomorrow. But uh, I remember?
Speaker 1: Oh so you did remember us, but you just wrote
down the wrong day. I did. Story nice, It's okay.
I forgive you, man, I forgive you. Good to have
you here. What's up? Now? You're doing all right? Great?
Speaker 5: Yeah, just been super super busy. I'm glad to be
back with you guys though, for sure.
Speaker 3: All right, so we got we got most of the
mob girl on the panel. How you doing, man?
Speaker 1: Hello? How you guys doing? Pretty good? Pretty good?
Speaker 4: Man?
Speaker 3: Pretty good? So what did you have a question for us?
Did you want to show? Do you want to bring
in evidence on Islam being true?
Speaker 1: What you got? Uh?
Speaker 6: Since you guys are on the opposite how about you
guys start this?
Speaker 2: Is this that? So?
Speaker 3: What are you talking about man Ah, Zach, why do
you keep trying to come up and on different names
and and different you know, why do you keep going?
Speaker 5: Because you guys are cowards.
Speaker 4: You guys, that's what we're riding behind the camera.
Speaker 7: Well, if you guys got the balls to talk, well.
Speaker 4: I got a snack for you down girl es.
Speaker 1: Sam, how's the plumber? How's the plumber?
Speaker 4: She's been writing him?
Speaker 1: Thanks for coming man. So uh, there was a zact
that converted to Christianity. I confused it with that Zach.
That's not the right one.
Speaker 4: But okay, yes, so what if you correct, I'm the
bad cop to your good cop.
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, man, And by the way, you will be
proven to be a false prophet.
Speaker 1: Just letting you know exactly.
Speaker 4: Happy birthday moment. It's his birthday Friday thirteenth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's bring a nam up. How you doing it now?
Speaker 7: Hey, guys, how's it going?
Speaker 1: Pretty good? Pretty good? I didn't put you on the
big screen too.
Speaker 4: There you go.
Speaker 6: Nice to see you again, brother, Sam and Jay. My
first time meeting you. But I saw you did a
debate with Coreggian the set of a contest.
Speaker 7: You did an amazing job, I thought, Jay.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, that was That was about five years ago.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, I forgot about that.
Speaker 4: Oh really is this? Are you the one that has
been with David Wood and postly profit.
Speaker 7: No.
Speaker 6: I spoke to David Wood once, but I'm the trinitarian Muslim.
So we had a nice talk and then you came
on every show.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's I got you something over that.
Speaker 7: Debate, so you know, and I'm intividated because I have
both of you.
Speaker 6: You know, I wasn't expecting Jay, but you know, I'm
still a Muslim nominally, even though I've come to realize that,
like I was mistaken in being against the Trinity, and
I mean to help j because Jay doesn't know me
or about me. I had a religious experience when I
was about twenty two years old, so I believe, you know,
Christ kind of well spoke to me, I guess, like
without words or without seeing him, and I realized, like,
you know, you know, ever since I was fourteen, I
would like look at the New Testament and I would
try to memorize the subordinationist arguments and I knew all
of them. And then one day I feel like the
Holy Spirit just hit me on the head with the
two by four and that kind of bless you.
Speaker 4: How are you still a Muslim if you're trying to
tarian that's weird? Yeah it is.
Speaker 7: I'll can see to you.
Speaker 6: I'm definitely like a church of a church of one,
and I'm not happy about that position. But you know
I would I would say, though, yes, in the name
of the Father and the Son and so.
Speaker 7: Or and nomine patre at philiates. It's also a good formula.
But and so but I feel like, you know, I.
Speaker 6: Would submit you guys this thesis, you know, just to
not to you know, because also one of the things is,
you know, you guys have a hard job avery too.
It's like you deal with trolls and sincere people, personal attacks,
abuse and uh you know, I remember even Jay he
was being picked on for you know, like uh, smoking
weed or something by his opponent. So it's like it's
so facetious, like nobody wants to talk about the arguments.
They just want to talk about extreme stuff.
Speaker 4: So but you know that's gone, Jo Jay, So I.
Speaker 8: No longer is in the church.
Speaker 5: I mean now in the make and change where we
can do what we want brought out.
Speaker 1: Good.
Speaker 6: One thing one thing though, I would, you know, because
and one of the things I like to come on
every show is because you guys take so much abuse.
I just like to come up and have like a
different kind of conversation other.
Speaker 4: Than give me a hug, because I need a hug, because.
Speaker 1: We need a safe space.
Speaker 7: You had a great discussion with doctor Khalil and Donnie though.
I really liked that discussion.
Speaker 6: And by the way, I find myself agreeing with you
most of the time, brother Sam.
Speaker 4: But I do need a hug because you know that
Plumber really did the number on me.
Speaker 6: So the thing is that could I submit, like to
you guys, maybe a thesis right, because I feel like
Islam is an offshoot of Christianity. I know, brothers would
like not like me for saying that, and I know
we don't want to say that because obviously our first
thing is that, you know, we're not derivative, you know,
But I feel like, especially when you look at Orthodox
you know, Christianity and the monaster tradition, like monks were
so important in the third, fourth, fifth centuries. It's Saint
Isaac of Ninbay saying, Gregory of Nissa, you know I'm
The Codex Sinidicus was written by the monastery at Saint
Catharine's and the SINAI.
Speaker 7: So, like, if you.
Speaker 6: Didn't have this like monastic tradition, people who just gave
up the world for Christ, you really wouldn't have Like,
I mean, that was so important in the first.
Speaker 7: Few centuries of Christianity, and it's hard for us to.
Speaker 6: Fathom today because you know, who wants to live in
a monastery now it's not really are.
Speaker 4: You affirming the monastic life? Yeah?
Speaker 7: I think, I mean, I I'm I would love to discern.
Speaker 4: It the kron where it says they invented it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but hold on, it also says though God will
accept it of them because of their good intentions.
Speaker 4: They do it rightly if they do it correctly.
Speaker 6: But don't condemned them for being celibate, by the way,
even though God never told them to be selling.
Speaker 7: What am I selling?
Speaker 4: Because you said you celibate? What are you selling?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 7: No selling me, no sex.
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm sorry, I'm I'm a little under the weather.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: So, So the thing is that I would like to
suggest to you, guys.
Speaker 7: I'd like to suggest to you guys.
Speaker 6: You know that, like you know, Islam was deeply influenced
by these Christian monastics. And in fact, even yesterday, Avery
was talking about the story of Alexander arriving at the
setting of the sun in the muddy spring, and that
comes from an Aramaic tradition of where Alexander finds the
sun setting in the spring of muddy water.
Speaker 7: So I feel like, you know this.
Speaker 4: Brother before you move on. Really, you really confuse me,
because you're amazing different. So you're admitting the Conan is Alexander.
They're great.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't see how else who else it could be.
Speaker 4: Dude, You're not a Muslim anymore, So why don't you
just give it up?
Speaker 7: I know Avery's trying to tell me the same thing, Avery.
Speaker 4: Not a muscl because you're admitting to everyone in chapter
eighteen Rade eighty three to ninety eight the two horn
one is Alexander. And yet all the evidence we have
is that Alexander was not a believer, in spite of
what later legends say. And le Kron says that he
was a believer who followed the law. But you know
historically that's not the case.
Speaker 7: Right, yeah, I mean historically he probably wasn't.
Speaker 4: So then you're saying the Krwan is wrong. So how
are you following the crew?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 6: Okay, like I said, I'm okay, that is okay. You
do have me nailed there, brother Stam. I would just
say this, right, like, I think he was kind of
like a pluralist king and maybe he might have had
like a monotheistic ethic. I don't know, but he was
marrying Persian wives out of like practicality, you know, you
have to marry, like I mean, he had the largest
landmass empire the world ever had.
Speaker 1: And it's over repeat after me, man, also.
Speaker 6: Do anyway, hold on, hold on, hold on, okay, you
know what actually, so if you want to go, okay,
I don't want to go. If you want to if
that that's a discussion, you know, life was having me
repeat after him too, right, right. But the thing is, though,
I don't want to have that discussion about how you
enter Christianity, right because in other words, I mean, with
all due respective right, my religion is the one that
you enter faith upon giving testimony as witness your religion,
especially in the seventh century, the way you enter the
faith is through baptism of water.
Speaker 4: So yeah, but if you're a convert, it's not either
or because if he read Romans ten nine to thirteen
and Romans six three to six and Acts twenty two sixteen,
and your act of baptism, there has to be a confession.
There is a confession that you confess with your Moutj's Lorden,
calling upon his name. That's done at baptism. If you
look at Acts twenty two sixteen with Paul's own conversion,
which he mentions Romans sixty three to six and Romans
ten nine to thirteen. So in your act of baptism,
you have to make that confession. Does You're a convert,
You're not an infant. We're not baptizing as anything.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I have a what's stopping you?
Speaker 8: Well?
Speaker 6: You know, could I I feel like, okay, what's stopping
me is you know I was telling this avery yesterday.
Speaker 1: Actually.
Speaker 6: You know, so I grew up in a Muslim family,
Muslim culture, Muslim tradition. I liked most of it, right,
it gave me my morality and you know, like not
for nothing, right, Uh. You know, Islam actually like teaches
you to study the other religions, right, like to read
those holy books and to analyze them and to and
to like you know, there was Islam gave me, even though,
like I said, I was combative against Christianity in my
teenage years, and then later I came to realize that
I was wrong in my criticism and that you know,
I thought the news Testament was a jumble of contradictions,
but when you read it with faith, you see that
it's a cohesive whole.
Speaker 7: It's telling you.
Speaker 6: You know, the Gospels paint an image, a stereo image
of the Christ, so it's very valuable to read those works.
But I would say, though, like, okay, so growing up Muslim,
I feel like I feel like this is where I'm
at right now. Right Islam started as a Christian movement
composed of mostly monastics, you know, monks, monk types, people
who were just borrowing from monasteries, which are the culture
and centers of literacy back then. And then it eventually
morphed into this combative relationship with Christianity.
Speaker 1: But it used to.
Speaker 6: Be somewhat concilia conciliatory or conciliatory even and then later
you have this like antagonism. So I feel like I'm
part of the I feel like original Islam would have
been adjacent to Christianity, and and you know, like, for example,
when you bring.
Speaker 4: Up the argument real quickly, if you're going by the
earliest evidence, and Jay is the expert in this area.
But John of the Damascus, John the Demascene eighth century
seven Unhoods, writing of the in Syria, says that Mohammad
was actually preaching arianism, that there was a monk who
was of the persuasion of arianism, taught what area is taught,
and that's what ISLAMI So he agrees that it's a Sectivistlam,
but it's arian. But you're a trinitarian.
Speaker 3: Hey, Sam, after this point we're gonna move on to
the next guest.
Speaker 1: Okay, So let me just want.
Speaker 4: To know, if you're a trinitarian Muslim, you're not even
faithful to the type of Islam that Islam claimed to be.
In other words, if I go by John of Damascus,
Islam is an arian sector, so you would not be
a trinitarian. You'd be an arian. But you're not an
Aaron here a trinitarian. So historically you're out of Islam
no matter how you slice.
Speaker 5: The one thing I'll add to just to backup Sam's point,
is that a lot of people for a long time
had contentions with that claim of St. John Damascus that
it was Arian and the historian monastics that influenced early Islam.
But the present day Oxford Handbook of Islam, the whole
chapter on early Islam in that book actually vindicates John Damascus,
and today's scholars admit that it was early Aryan Historian
Christianity that influenced Mohammed.
Speaker 4: And to confirm further a little further, there is a
head statement in that dice where when Muhammad is supposedly
writing to Heraclius, I supposedly he then said he doesn't
accept his uh conditions, then the guilt of the adisseeing
will fall on you. That's the word at a seein
there are scholars like ivaniyas Arcati who claimed that dyssean
means what was done to the followers of Arius because
of Byzantine Christianity, that judgment will fall on you. So
if we go with that statement, that means Muhammad thought
he was defending the followers of Arius.
Speaker 1: Very interesting, So you've got to.
Speaker 6: Go returns I read I read in a that's a
that's a valid point. I would just the only thing understanding.
And then you know, every once to move on to the
next guest. I want to re respectful to my host,
Saint johnath Damascus. His uh work was called the heresy
of the is my lights. So that is the thesis
that I'm proposing that this is an is heresy.
Speaker 4: Rather than trinitarian.
Speaker 7: Right, right, right, but work Islam? I got you. Thank you,
beautiful talk to you guys. Nice meeting you, brother Jay,
have a great evening.
Speaker 1: See you later now in peace. Good to see you.
Speaker 4: Wow, I'm baffled. But hey man, hopefully he'll get baptized soon.
Let's see, we'll see. I don't know, we'll see trinitarians of.
Speaker 3: The trinitarian Muslim. That's right, all right, Meals, you are
on the panel. How you doing, Males, you're on the panel.
Speaker 1: I'm doing great? Correct, Yes, welcome, welcome, welcome. So we're
just we're just here.
Speaker 3: We're inviting you to give us the best reason why
Islam as true. So what what would you say is
the best reason why you Beliem as true?
Speaker 9: I won't got that broad because I'm not yet fully studied,
but I'll start with this that for me, I think
Mohammad is a true prophet.
Speaker 1: And maybe you'll let me land with a few points.
Speaker 3: You just give me one, give me one reason why
you believe Muhammad is a is a true profit and
we'll start there.
Speaker 9: Now, I'm going to approach it from a negative aspect.
I'm not going to approach it from a positive aspect.
Then when I'm approaching it from a negative aspect, then
compared to the Bible to someone but.
Speaker 3: It's okay, just I just need a reason why you
think Mohammed is a true prophet.
Speaker 1: Will work from there, bro.
Speaker 9: So one he talks about Moses, and he talks about
the profits of God, and there's some kind of morality
to what it brings, although there's a lot of, you know,
negative things that she does.
Speaker 1: And that's why I'm telling I'm going to approach it.
From there. We can look at the life of David.
Speaker 9: David as also coming did some of those crimes Solomon
has committed some of the scenes.
Speaker 1: And I'm was for a.
Speaker 4: Second, when David committed those crimes, did God rebuke him
and chasing him?
Speaker 1: Absolutely?
Speaker 4: When Solomon committed those crimes, God chasing him? Rebuke him?
Speaker 1: Absolutely?
Speaker 4: But when your prophet lusted for his adopted son's wife
and then abolished adoption after marrying her, did Allah rebuke
him or did Allah make that part of the divine legislation?
Speaker 1: Alla picked it.
Speaker 9: As a part of You know, he told him he
shouldn't be afraid to do this exactly that he has
already planned for.
Speaker 1: This to happen.
Speaker 4: So I want everyone hear what you said. I'll already
planned Muhammad to commit adulterine us art lust for a
married woman and lust for his adopted son's wife, causing
the divorce to marry her and the destroy adoption. So
your God create this, So how can I be the
God of the Bible.
Speaker 9: I'm just coming with a claim that when God decreased something,
this is my claim. This is my particular claim. When
God decreased something, you, as a human, you have no
authority to say that it's not moral. In fact, I'm
just trying to say God moral basis.
Speaker 4: I don't assume God decreated. That's the argument. What he's
given you prove to us Allah is the God who decreated,
because you went to the Bible. When I look at
the character of the God of the Bible, he condemns
what your God had your prophet do. So they're not
the same God. So why should we believe Mohammad.
Speaker 9: I'm just trying to say that there is a particular
claim that Allah is the most powerful. It's the all
knowing and it's the only present God. So when I'm
putting that claim.
Speaker 4: Down present, I don't mean because you're making I don't
mean to cut you up, but I'm trying to see
because you believe Allah's present everywhere.
Speaker 1: Oh, come on, like you're going to ask me, what do.
Speaker 8: We come on?
Speaker 4: The self is don't believe that. They don't believe that.
Speaker 1: Some let's just go with simple argument.
Speaker 2: Again.
Speaker 4: The self is saying Allah is present bias knowledge, but
he himself is not omnipresent. Do you believe that?
Speaker 9: No, I've just retracted my statement. I've just said that
I'm not sure about the omnipresent. So I don't feel
like maybe you need to go ahead on me on that.
Speaker 1: But claim God.
Speaker 9: My claim is so simple that God has that power
to declare the things that you perceive us wrong. It
can declare them as right because initially we know so
well that morality depends on God. So you can't make
a claim that one day God now decides something that
you've been thinking that it's immoral. Now it turns it
another day, it makes it to be moral. So then
you have to be wondering like, oh, like, no, God
has now become immral when you know so well is
the source of morality. So in this specifical context where
Summer's brought up, where the issue with Zaid and Mohammad,
I'm just trying to put that concept and in that
context that that day God decided that giving the wife
of Zaid to Muhammad is something that was necessary. I
don't know how it was necessary, but I'm very specific
with the I.
Speaker 4: Want want to hear what you said. You're admitting Allah
gave a man's wife to your prophet.
Speaker 9: That's what's written. It's right there. I can't deny that.
Speaker 4: So you'd met that. But then the example was and
then Jay is the one who knows logic, he can
and coming puddles. But I just want everyone here this.
I'm right, you're honest enough to admit that. But the
example for Mohammad doing was that, according to thirty three
to thirty seven, was so that he could set an
example for other men to also marry the divorce wives
of their adopted sons, right exactly. Yeah, okay, good, you're honest,
I really respect that because I have to force with
it now. But then you then know that that right
afterwards abolished adoption.
Speaker 1: Right exactly? I know that?
Speaker 4: Oh good? You know? So then what kind of example
was Mohammed setting by marrying the divorced wife of the
adopted son so the other people can do it? When
all I knew is going to bolish adoption.
Speaker 9: This kind of feels like, you know, like a long
term effect on the things, because I'm going to be
very honest, I don't know what's the top was or
was the principle that all is trying to play with
us there about giving more men, giving Zaid's wife to Muhammad.
But yeah, I want you to hear me out. I
want you to hear me out like.
Speaker 4: And I'll hear you are just one more question, okay,
one more and I promise you. Here's it. So you
Allah took a more woman, okay, Zaiad was married to
this woman and he was intimate with her. Now said
has to look to that woman as his mother, even
at one time he was intimate her and having sex.
Some don't you think there's somewhere with that picture a
woman that I slept with and had sex with. Now
she's one of the mothers of the believers, and I
have to look at her as my mother. You don't,
You don't have a problem with that picture.
Speaker 1: Some you do.
Speaker 9: You you do realize that I admitted that. Okay, personally,
I don't agree with that, with the whole of that concept. Personally,
I don't agree with it. But I want you to
hear me out. Just give me this time. Hear me out.
I personally I don't agree with that whole concept of
Zaid's wife.
Speaker 1: Becoming Mohammad's wife, but me out.
Speaker 9: My point is God can decide one day that killing
all humans on Earth is moral, then he can do it.
I want you to hear me from that perspective. He
can decide one day killing all humans on planet Earth
is moral, then he can do it. Then we have
nothing against him. Although you guys can come across then
say that, okay, that's not God, because but we know
sowhere that God one day can decide that it's an
open possibility. Then I'm going to tie you to the
issue of David and best seback. When David commits adults
you best God knows it's a saying. And God comes
and rebukes David about it. After he rebukes David about it,
there is a punishment that David faces, and that punishment
is that be Shebar gives birth and.
Speaker 1: The child dies. I don't know if I'm correct on that.
Speaker 4: Yes, I can serve about it.
Speaker 9: So take it from this perspective. But Seba gives back
the child died. We know back then God says, no
child will be paying for the sin of who.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're you're taking. You're going to aniculating to run,
you're taking You're jumping from here.
Speaker 9: And I'm going to bring the argument to the issue
of Zaid. I'm going to bring it back. I'm going
to ammonize it.
Speaker 4: There's no more. Let me explain why I'm going to
commonize it. Just let me dress your false analogy. I
know you want to preach. Take it is, it's not
just preaching.
Speaker 1: No, no, let me let me finish the argument.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 9: So the point is there is there is a time
that God said that it's moral to not punish the
child in the place of the fad. But today, in
terms of David.
Speaker 4: You're miss coding. This is the third time I just
told you you're miss coding. Drawing me five listen twenty
four sixteen, and you're mis supplying, issulating. So that's why
I say stop preaching. Let me correct your mistake. The
mistake is so you cut me off. We're not in conversation.
Do you want to go preach a shab Ali? Let
me address your mistake. If you read his eighteen in context,
that has nothing to do with whether someone's actions can
affect some hell good or about. In other words, if
I'm a drunk driver and I smash into a car
and I kill everyone that car, they suffer because of
my sin, but they're not punished for my sin. I'll
be held accountable for that sin. You're confusing apples and pineapples. Now,
let me come back and address why God took that child,
because this is the mercy of God. Explain why if
that child was allowed to belived, that would be a
stigma because everyone would know that child is the fruit
of adultery. So God, in his first he could take
that child in a state of grace. That child now
would dwell with God. Because we're not atheists, we believe
in our life that child now liz with God and
he's not punished. But that child is spared the scorn
and the stigma of being oppressed and being viewed as
a bastard steed of an adulterous relationship. But you don't
see the wisdom of luck because you're not reading the
scripture in its context.
Speaker 9: Oh come on, okay, I'm listening. I'm listening right now.
I think this is part of Lenny, so I'm kind
of listening.
Speaker 5: So I think there's another mistake that's being made, which
is that in the argument that you gave, if I
understood it about the situation of.
Speaker 1: Zayid, you were li likening it to God flooding the world.
Speaker 5: It's not a situation where something is moral or immoral,
just based on God's arbitrary decree at that moment.
Speaker 1: The reason that the world was.
Speaker 5: Flooded was because humans were wicked, So it's an action
of justice in the same situation with these other cases,
like when God makes these judgments, it's because of sin
and wickedness. It's not that he is arbitrarily just deciding Okay,
right now, this is good, and then tomorrow I'm gonna
switch and this is going to be evil tomorrow. So
good can't become evil and evil can become good.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm getting I'm getting that one.
Speaker 9: But you do agree with me that therese morality is
tied to God. And when Muslims as as Muslims come
across and see that, okay, you guys know that morality
is tied to God. We are saying that God has
declared this to be moral. We are getting our more.
We are we are making a claim this moral authority,
this action of moral authority. We are taking it to
the most powerful God, who is Allah.
Speaker 5: So do you believe that it's just what he decrees
called theological voluntarism? And so all I could could decree
the evils good or the good is evil. We don't
believe that. We believe that things have natures, they have qualities.
God can't lie and say that good suddenly today is
evil and in three years, Oh now I actually I've
changed my mind.
Speaker 1: Now evil is actually good.
Speaker 5: Why because, as Paul says, it is impossible for God
to lie, because God's character dictates his actions, because he
has the holy nature, holy character, he will never do
something evil or declare good to be evil. But I
understand your qur'an Allah is actually a really cunning deceiver
and he tricks people with phantasms of Jesus being you know,
killed on the cross, but it didn't really happen. So
you actually have a god who literally engages in descuption
and lies.
Speaker 1: We don't. It's not the same. Okay, okay, ok but okay, okay, okay, okay,
can you give us money?
Speaker 4: The prophet, because we spent twenty minutes on morality, he
wants an argument for one among this p Can you
give us at least something so we don't talk about
morality and how it can change depending on circumstances to all,
I can do what he wants. What's the proof of
man as a prophet?
Speaker 9: That's what Okay, I'll just go with the you know,
the the kind of influence that he has, it's kind
of in it's kind of parallel. It's parallel to the
kind of influence that Jesus has. So I don't know
if God is just sitting down and if Mommad was
a false prophet, I don't know if God is just
sitting down and saying that, okay, this money is so
powerful is overtaking me in terms of you know, people
were believing in him.
Speaker 1: And the impact that he has. I don't know if
how you guys, can all of.
Speaker 5: The people who believe in false polytheistic religions.
Speaker 1: Are they also of God? Is that?
Speaker 5: Does that prove that polytheism true? Because probably the majority
of the world still believes in some kind of polytheism,
I can do them right.
Speaker 9: I wouldn't talk for Hindism because I don't know anything
about Indism, but if they do.
Speaker 1: You understand the meaning.
Speaker 5: The point is that the argument that you made was
that God wouldn't allow this influence to be there unless
it was of God. And by the same token, Hinduism
has duped millions, perhaps billions of people. So why isn't
Hinduism true?
Speaker 4: Yeah, especially in India, the Hindu the miltenants are persecutting Muslims, Christions,
they seem to be dominant.
Speaker 9: But that one is on on a scale of India,
So on a skill of the whole art, it depends.
I don't know if you believe that getting my argument.
Speaker 1: My argument is that's an arbitrary point. That's why it
doesn't worry.
Speaker 5: It's a bad argument because it's arbitrary. So like, what's
the number by which is it? What two billion? Two
billion people believe it? Then it's true and of God
one billion. That's the point is that it's arbitrary. It
doesn't make any sense. It's not going to be fun
by the number of people.
Speaker 1: So what the religion becomes true when one billion and
one person believe it? I mean, it's this is a
silly argument, my friend.
Speaker 4: We have a good argument. Why don't you come back
so others can ask questions. We appreciate you, but we've
been spending a number situation.
Speaker 1: Would you allow me to talk to one question on
the Bible?
Speaker 4: It depends, I don't know, until.
Speaker 9: As up to you guys if you want to continue,
and it should we move on only one question on
the Bible like a kind of mental contradition, so you
guys might explain.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let me just get the bus right now?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, okay, so we're keeping them. Yeah, I let
them bring it because that's all they can do is
bring a legends of the Bible. But they don't understand
this is the burial the Jenasm Mohammed. That's why I like,
this guy's talking about scribal here and these guys don't
get it. But it's tiring, man. Yeah, yeah, but go ahead.
He's now going to maybe so the no first one
we don't have. Yeah, just give me one so I
can show why Mohammed is in hell.
Speaker 1: Mathy ten nine to ten, No.
Speaker 4: Go idea.
Speaker 1: Two ten ninety ten. Yeah, no's talking about you know,
go out, don't go with that stuff. Then louve.
Speaker 4: Then it says take us that. I never heard that before. No,
I never heard that before because number one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just just nice. I'm whee that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, buddy, I know the argument before Mohammed had you
descend upon him and squeeze him to the point that
he thought he was going to die. This objection has
already been answered. But one second before I answered, because
I just want to screen share for a minute. One
second we want a screen share, want of us? Now
you know if the Bible has a contradiction, because that's
why I don't ways time with muslim who ask contradiction,
because we're not answer because I'm gonna show you now.
Now I'm going to open this up. Writer, Now can
you open up my screen? Gee, I've never heard dis
argument before. And GES's commissioned to twelve disciples. Were they
or were they not to take staff?
Speaker 1: Damn? This guy caught me.
Speaker 4: He slammed me. All right, now, the answer is simple.
If you look at particular Greek words used by different authors,
they're not communicating the same point. If we look at
the Greek terminology means you're not taking expo staff. But
I'm not here and I don't have time to unpack it.
Mircle's there. I'm going to concede your argument. There's a contradiction.
Why are you still a because there's stories on masking
number one, if the con tells you're using Christian that
they are nothing until they have pulled the poor. In
the Gospel, all relation given to them, so that didn't mind.
By sixty eight and we're told that the chron confirms
what is between there is between his hands, and that's
all throughout the chrome. I mean, I can give you
the list, all right, Just give you a few death
by forty eight, Chapter three, verse three. You conclude four
we can go to. But I've so many times the
only scriptures that these Christians had at the time of Muhammad.
Needs you to listen to me. The only scriptures that
the Christians had at the time of Muhammad are Matthew, Mark, Luke,
and John and the rest of you just told me
they have contradictories, but Muhammad says that Allah commands them
to pull the Gospel and all the relation that has
come to them. So if I'm a Christian, I hear
mom and say, hey, Baldi, you are Syrian heretic. Yeah,
you need to follow the torn Gospel, the relation that's
with you. Oh, so I follow my New Testament. So
all was telling me follow this New Testament. You're telling
me it as contradictions. So it's all a wrong and
you know more than a long.
Speaker 9: Okay, I totally get your point. But so you admit
it's I want to make I want I want.
Speaker 4: To answer, are you by the gin?
Speaker 1: So you admit it's a contradition. I want to just.
Speaker 4: Here, I just posted the article that answers the contradiction
in front of your eyes. Or is the gin blinding you?
It's right there on the screen. Do you see the
answer here?
Speaker 10: Right here?
Speaker 4: Did you repeat what my answer was to you to
see if you're even listening. I just said, we've answered
the contradiction. But I said that I'm not wasting my
time answering because if there's a contradiction, you admit Mohammed's
in hell and I'll say, because Allah didn't know what
he's talking about, So do you admit Alla stupid?
Speaker 1: Actually, that's not my point.
Speaker 9: My whole point was to ask a question if do
you recognize it as a contradition or is there an
explanation to it?
Speaker 4: But I want you to say, because you're Muslim, I
want you to say, I reject Islam and the churn
because the chron is wrong about the Gospels. So then
we can put that aside, and then I can answer
if you sincerely want to believe the Bible. So do
you agree Mohammad doesn't know what he's talking about.
Speaker 1: I kind of feel what you're saying, but I wanted.
Speaker 4: You agree he's wrong because he says the Bible is
the uncropt preserve words of God.
Speaker 1: He's not wrong on that. He's not wrong on that
when he says Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Speaker 4: So wait, he's not wrong that the Bible is the
word of God. And at the same time, you just
said the Bible has contradictions, So you mean all that's
okay with contradictions.
Speaker 1: No, I didn't make an assasson I.
Speaker 9: In fact, I give those specific verses to ask you
because I feel like you know more about it to
ask you, is it a contradition? So if it's a prediction,
then I'm going to make my claim. If it's not,
I cannot make my.
Speaker 4: Tradection because if you read the article the writer, you're
going to see that the Greek words employed tell my
airol different words use in the context, and when you
look at how the words are used, you're going to
note that a careful reading of the different Greek wording
implies that the instruction means you don't take an extra staff,
because the words employed will give you that interpretation, as
the entire article shows take up. But the whole point
is there's an answer now that you'd make. The chron
confirms the Bible's God, but the Chrown contracts the Bible.
So is Mohammed Rod.
Speaker 9: I feel like Kuran contradict the Bible. I don't feel
like it makes it makes the kurank falls, because.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like if.
Speaker 4: The Korn tells me to follow my Bible, and that
the chorn confirms my Bible, and I read Jesus as
a son of God who died on the cross and
rose again and returned as Lord of Lord, king of kings.
The Koran and I so who's wrong now the Bible
of the kron.
Speaker 1: That's gonna be so difficult ones, man, I.
Speaker 4: Know, man, that's why I gotta leave us Slam, come
to Jesus.
Speaker 1: Goa take my time like I'm reading for information.
Speaker 4: Okay, let me get you that article if you want
the answer, because it seems like you are sincere. Now
go to the private chat, the private chat here, it
is right here. If you look at the private chat,
here's a link. Now there it is. You look sincere.
And I think if you keep going this way from
the way you're acting, we will have you joining us
in glorifying Jesus Christ. So expose Muhammad and Jay will
be kind of tell you what church you're go and
get baptizing.
Speaker 11: That.
Speaker 1: I can't say anything to that.
Speaker 4: But keep searching, brother, because you look since here, my brother, mamama,
and it will be a matter of time you leave us,
lamp and what do you do? Let God logic alsay
share your testimony.
Speaker 3: All right, let's go ahead and bring up next guest.
Let's see what we got here. If Noulah Mohammed, if you.
Speaker 4: Want to keep talking, my brother, I don't want to
keep talking the time, So keep talking. Say what you
need to see.
Speaker 1: For Noula.
Speaker 3: Mohammad A there, hello, going once, going twice? All right,
he wasn't ready hit his camera on and everything, y'all go.
Speaker 4: Remember he said I'm a liar. He says only to
make people know little okay, goohe y, I guess you
know a lot more.
Speaker 1: Hello, you're on the panel. Can you hear me? Fortunately?
Speaker 4: Becare he's gonna start cussing?
Speaker 1: Hello? Yeah, what's what's up? What? What position you're coming from?
Speaker 12: Can you guys hear me?
Speaker 1: Yes? What position you're coming from?
Speaker 2: Bro?
Speaker 1: Can you hear me? Boy?
Speaker 4: So yeah, I told you you heard them? No, he's
making fun. Boy, he's the same guy the last troll.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 4: The plumber didn't pay his mommy.
Speaker 1: That's a different guy.
Speaker 4: No, it came under a different nit because you see
hear me, boy, I can sell you that I know.
Speaker 1: I know the other guy. I know.
Speaker 4: All right, so does the plumber.
Speaker 1: Mohammed, you're on the panel. What's up?
Speaker 12: Good afternoon? Good, well, good evening. How you guys doing today?
Speaker 1: Pretty good?
Speaker 13: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Pretty good man, pretty good. We're asking why why do
you guys believe Mohammad is a prophet? What's your what's
your best reason?
Speaker 12: Well, I think he's a prophet because there's a lot
of people that wrote about him, and he is very
influential in his character. And what's so funny?
Speaker 1: Does that make John John Lennard a prophet too?
Speaker 12: No, I'm not saying that, but I also wanted to
piggyback on the panel that the discussion you guys had
prior to with I forgot his name, but but I
just think he was he was very influential because just
of his.
Speaker 5: Character, Marley a prophet.
Speaker 12: No, he's not a prophet.
Speaker 5: I mean people wrote about him. He was influential.
Speaker 12: I'm not speaking literally about just like influential because everybody
everybody's influencial. I mean you guys, you guys might have
a sense of influence.
Speaker 5: Well, your argument was that if you're written about influential,
that makes your profit.
Speaker 12: No, I was just I mean I was, I was
going through a checklist. But he was influence and he
had he had had miracles as well too, and for
somebody that.
Speaker 4: He had no miracles, don't deceive yourself, but answer his question.
So he's asking, so you go back on that influence
has nothing to do with him being a prophet.
Speaker 12: No, it does have I mean, that's one of the things,
but that's not the only thing. That's not what makes
a profit a profit.
Speaker 1: So what you got to have all the checklists? Five
of them? Ten?
Speaker 12: I mean he had miracles, just like Jesus made piece
of the best we put them and all the profits
that came prior.
Speaker 4: To He had no miracles. But we'll get to that.
Speaker 1: That's a lot.
Speaker 4: Go ahead. Continue.
Speaker 12: Why don't you think you had any miracles?
Speaker 4: The chron says he didn't, So your later traditions that
say he did means the Chron is a life.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 12: Yeah, I don't. I don't specifically believe that. Can you
show some evidence?
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, In fact, I'll do you even one better.
I'll give you an article. We're going to go through
all the verses.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, The Cron says repeatedly, the reason why they were
having a problem with Muhammed is because they're asking for
a sign and no sign was given. So let me
just open up.
Speaker 12: Didn't they ask Jesus the same thing to do it?
Speaker 4: Stop that nonsense, because in the same chapter, Jesus did miracles.
Whereas the Kron says, I'm just the warner. I did
no miracles. Stop getting the game.
Speaker 12: He did miracles through God, through the power of God.
Speaker 4: No, Jesus, Jesus, don't change the topic. I know you
want to run.
Speaker 12: I'm just answering the question.
Speaker 4: The power that Jesus did the miracles was the power
that belongs to the Father's suddenly spirit. And the proof
of it is they did miracles in Jesus's name. They
cast out demons in his name, they raised the dead
in his name.
Speaker 12: That's something the history of people casting out in qing.
Speaker 4: Why don't you because I don't want to change the topic.
I know you're scared like aisha, but you're not.
Speaker 14: Going I'm not scared at all. Brother, I'm just going
to stop. We're going to stick with the miracles. Don't run, easy, man,
I know, of course, brother, of course, of course.
Speaker 1: Always.
Speaker 4: Now do me a favor, brother, screenshare, let me do it. Yeah,
you see, that's what they do when it came to moment. Oh,
what does the Bible? No, the Bible shows us thim
is from Hell. Okay, here it is. I want now
give you the link all the verses where your prophet
did not do a single miracle not a single one, nada, nada.
Here it is in the private chat writer. Okay, right,
let's begin. Let me know when you want me to
stop because it's too many showing your prophet was a father,
did no miracles? Okay, okay. Chapter two, verse went eighteen.
And they that know not say, why does God not
speak to us? Why does a sign not come to us?
So spoke those before them, as these men say, their
hearts are much alike. We have made clear the signs
until people are sure, all right? Thirty seven? They also
say I have no sign? Why has no sign been
sent down upon him? From his Lord? Say? Surely God
is able to send down a sign, But most of
the notice their lame explasion, God ken send this sign?
We know you can't. Where's your sign?
Speaker 8: Oops?
Speaker 1: All right?
Speaker 2: Six?
Speaker 4: One or nine. They have sworn by God the most
earnest oath if a sign comes to them, they will
believe in it. See, Man, give us a sign, we're
gonna believe. Say, signs are only with God. He We
didn't know that. Thank you Allah for telling us something
we didn't know. That signs are with you exactly, So
if you're with him, where's the sign? Thirteen seven. Then
believers say, why has a sign not been sent down
upon him from his lord? Thou art only a warner
and a guide to every people. Okay, beating, all you
do is warn you will not send with gone and
in case, I'm still gonna give it seventeen fifty nine
and I got a lot more. But I want you
to explain. This not prevented us, Nothing stopped us from
sending the signs, but that the ancients cried licenon. Now, Jay,
you see the logic heure j It's saying, look, things
stopped it from giving miracles, but people before when he
gave the miracles, they still deny it.
Speaker 12: Correct, But I do have a so I have so
I can explain it. I can explain. I'm not I
watched uh uh well, he says psychologic now, but God logics,
I mean his his he says Muslim shuffle. He says
a Muslim shuffle. You know, I pay attention, but I'm
not going to shuffle at all. So one of the miracles,
I mean, yeah, he was a warner and this clear signs.
But at the same time, for the Quran to come
from somebody who was unlettered, somebody that wasn't able to
wasn't able to read nor write, and then for it
to have and entail all of these miracles that science
is now really revealing, Like how would he knows about
on Wait? Wait, wait, that's a miracle itself. That's a miracle.
Speaker 4: Abandon the lie that your korwan foretells science. It's a
lie from the pedal. Know that I'm going to put
the wholes to that narrative. But actually, you're right, the
chron is proof that's someone illiterate composed it, because you
got to be alliterate to produce something like the chronic.
Speaker 12: Okay, but but my question is, though, how would somebody
that's illiterate that has it back in the days of
the fourteen thousand years ago? How would he be able
to years ago? Fourteen thousand over, fourteen thousand years ago?
Speaker 4: Was there at the time of Adam and Eve?
Speaker 12: No, fourteen hundred years ago. I apologize, I apologize, I apologize. So,
but how would somebody that's claim to be illiterate if
he was in present day, how would he be able
to stay? And they have no no doctors, well doctors
that can able to be able to see like a
woman's stages of pregnancy. How would he be able to
come up with that all of these, all these characters,
how would he be able to.
Speaker 4: I want you to logically, four stages of embryology was
something taught by the Greeks, preserve by the Christians translated Arabic,
the stages of what we call Gallanic or gallin. Those
four stages were already known and was common knowledge among
the people at the time. Your prophet, being an ignoramus,
thought there were only four stages in the development of
the embryo because he was picking up the science that
was known by the Greeks and preserved by the Christians
and discovered by the Muslims even at the time, Mohammed,
So that's actually an argument. Your prophet doesn't know what
he's talking about, because there's more than four stages in
the development of the embryo. And let me get you
the information on that one second.
Speaker 8: Plate to the game.
Speaker 4: You wouldn't know.
Speaker 3: Hey, MoMA, do you have something like do you have
YouTube open or something like that?
Speaker 1: As you're on stream? Yer, because there's a little echo
when when I.
Speaker 12: Just closed it out, that.
Speaker 4: Give me your fait screenship? Okay, can you use screenshare.
I'm sorry, what screen gotta come up? Well, I don't
know where I'm at now I'm lost.
Speaker 12: All right, as you're looking for. And then so how
about the expansion of the universe. How would they know that?
Speaker 4: That's already about God stretching out the heavens.
Speaker 12: Nice try though, No, I'm just I'm just already known. Okay, okay, but.
Speaker 3: One second, mom, in one second, bro, Sam, So on
your screen you're sharing uh extreame yard Yeah, okay.
Speaker 4: No a screen share? Hold on, dude, shoot right here? Okay,
how about that?
Speaker 2: All right?
Speaker 4: So right here, guys, here it is. I'm going to
give you guys a link. See, these guys are gonna
even the Muslims have abandoned this argument. I guess this,
guys that Johnny Come Lately, even Ali drama or that,
and I'll say, yeah, yeah, I was mistaken. Yeah, we
know there's no new scientific facts in the Koran, but
you're kind of late to the game. But here you
go Greek and Jewish ideas about reproduction, the kron and
Adi and other embological stages in the Koran. And here
you're gonna see the four stages were already commented on
long before Muhammad and one thirty one a d. He
already talked about the four stages of embryo, and his
four stages are identical to what stayed in the kron
because the Koran is plagiarizing what was already known. You
don't know what you're talking about, buddy, You don't know
what you're talking about because you're late to the game.
You're just catching on the tricks of Dalaganda's. But those
before you already dropped that lie. Muhammed a jab Adi.
They're all they got videos saying, yeah, we are wrong
about scientific miracles in the Koran. We now know. No,
it doesn't have any scientific tracks that were unknown at
that time. Give up the game, give it up. It's
not gonna work anymore.
Speaker 3: All right, So you can mute now, Mohammad. But I
just had to mute you while he speaks because there's
still that echo. So just keep that in mind when
he when he's speaking, just try to meet your mic, okay,
because it's it's necho and I can't stand it.
Speaker 12: Sorry about that, Apologize about that, But I'm not saying
I was late later that year. I was just saying
I was going back and back about the situation where
you asked me the question about his miracles. But it
could say that as well too, like the text that
you're reading as well too, But I wouldn't. There's a
lot of other things like him splitting the moon and
all these other various things that that that, like Moses
splaining the sea, is the two seas not mixing? How
would he be able to how would be able to
know that? And then on top of that, wait, wait, brother,
hold on. And then on top of that, it is
not even all of the prophets used to gain wisdom
from everywhere. Even Jesus went where when he when he
left Nazareth? Where did he go? And he said, he
said there's people that's more wise.
Speaker 4: He went to Hawaii because you cluckification to no.
Speaker 12: But but then he but he said there's people over there,
more wives. Yeah, okay, okay. So and then even before yeah,
I just have a question that I've just have one.
Speaker 1: You've been you've been going on and on and on.
So now we're going to address the point that you
raised one about.
Speaker 4: Ja if you want to tell them, I don't want
to just keep talking to say something.
Speaker 5: It reminds me of a just a side point, both
the Sunni and the Shea will do this kind of
retroactive quantum cause causality, where uh like the Shia will
argue that, yeah, the the Koran is all coded neoplatonism,
but they didn't get it from ancient neoplatonists, even though
it's centuries after the Neoplatonists. The korn actually invented this,
and the Greek philosophers there were centuries earlier, stole it
somehow or when the when the Sunies talk about we
believe in atomism, but it wasn't the ancient Greek philosophers
and democratists that proposed atomism. It was actually the Qoran
that it's like all it's like a theft job.
Speaker 12: No, I apologize if that was the perception of how
it came off, but no, that was not. I'm not
saying that we stole it from They stole it from us,
or there was people that people that came, There was
profits that came way before, got before both both of
their times before apart from Mohammad and Jesus, was both
of them. So I'm not saying that we stole it
from them. I'm not sure how the knowledge was transferred,
but for it to be well, I know how it's
transferred revealed to Muhammad, but I'm just saying that. I'm
not saying that, oh, we stolen and we were the
first ones.
Speaker 1: Know h.
Speaker 5: But at this point, the point is that this shows
it was a ripoff.
Speaker 1: You don't understand.
Speaker 12: I don't. I can't. I can't agree to that.
Speaker 1: I can't agree to that. What's the reason that it's not?
Speaker 12: Because it like they like it says that it confirms
the Gospel and the tour. And I'm not saying that
people logically, if people already back.
Speaker 10: You know what, I'm just saying.
Speaker 12: I'm just saying that I'm not I'm just saying that
it's not a ripoff because if there were wise people
before then, prior to and then, and there was able
to undiscover all of these truths prior to even any
before Abraham before because Abraham is the father of our relation.
As you guys know, we all agree on if it
was if it was scientific, if it was things that
were revealed prior not even revealed, but things that they
discovered prior to for it to fall down, and it's
still in alignment with everything that was back then, with
the ancient Egyptian got.
Speaker 8: You off for a second.
Speaker 4: I want you to hear what you said about mute yourself.
Did you understand your initial argument was, how can a
litteric man no scientific statements that are reckless that we
only discovered Now you know, you change your argument.
Speaker 5: I'm not sure now exists prior to Mohammad. But wise
people can discover things in other wise places.
Speaker 12: Because because the reason why, the reason why I'm not
saying that I'm contradicting my argument is because we believe
that angel Gabriel, Jabriel came down and revealed God's word
to part Muhammad that was illiterate, so for him to
be able to gather all that knowledge from the past
that was already revealed and Andrew Gabriel has been since
since the beginning of time. So for him for him
to and and this is God's words that's being revealed
to Mohammad, for him to know all that and then
put it in its in this alignment with science. Now,
then that's what I'm That's what I'm saying. It's not
a contradiction.
Speaker 4: We got your point, but you said Gabriel revealed it.
Now I want to ask you a question let's see
if this is the real gab Do you believe just
I want you to be honest with me. Do you
believe women have sperm?
Speaker 12: Do I believe women?
Speaker 4: Have you believe sperm? That a child looks like the
mother's side of the family if she has an orgasm.
Speaker 12: Person, I've never that kind of threw That threw me
off brother, But you laughed at Muhammad.
Speaker 1: It threw us all off man. When we read that,
it threw us all off man.
Speaker 4: You just laughed at Muhamma.
Speaker 12: Why are you laughing, dude, I'm not laughing at I'm
just laughing at what you just said.
Speaker 4: Yes, Muhammed taught that the reason why a child looks
like the mother side of the family is because the
woman has an orgasm climaxes and her sperm comes out first,
which is yellow. But if the child looks like the
father side of the family is because he had an
orgasm and his sperm is white. And he said, Gabriel
revealed it to him. It's right here, I'm going to give.
Speaker 13: It to you.
Speaker 4: So before we move on, So are you saying that
science is wrong because science says women don't have sperm?
And who has an orgasm in bed has nothing to
do whether you look like your mommy's side or your
daddy's side. I'm gonna read it. I have it here,
but I just want to see. So is Gibriel right?
Speaker 15: He said, that.
Speaker 12: Is he right about woman having sperm.
Speaker 4: That not only sperm, it's yellow, and that if the
woman has an orgasm. So if you're making out with you,
I got to be g rated you're making out your wife.
She then organ when she gets pregnant, she goes look
like mommy's side. So if you're side of the family's ugly,
always have your wife climax.
Speaker 1: One, but no.
Speaker 4: Tell you yes, it's okay, right, and it's online, so
people don't think I'm making it up. I'll get you
to the link. But let me read annas because you said,
Jibril when Abdullah Bin saidam her the arrival of the
Prophet of Medinna, he came to him and said, I'm
going to ask you about three things which nobody knows
except for now mom, and I want to see you're listening.
He said, no one knows this except the prophet. What
is the first port of the hour? What will be
the first meal taken by the people of Paradise. Now watch,
why does the child resemble its father? Why does it
resemble its maternal comedian? Why does he look like his mother? Brothers,
beternal uncle, I want you to listen, so I don't
want you to say, well, doesn't say that?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 4: Who gave him the answer? Jay and logic? Jibril, He
said out, Gabriel has just now told me of their answers.
Abdullah said, he from amongst all the angels is the
enemy of the Jews. Okay, so now you're supposedly the
Jews h this religion anyway, Apostle said, the first portal
of the hour will be a fire that will bring
together people from these two west. Well, that we can't verify,
because that's the end. The first meal of the people
of the Paradise will be extra low the fish liver. Well,
that we can't verify because we're not in Paradise. But
here allah, brother, as for there is numblance of the
child to its parents. If a man has sexual intercourse
with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will
resemble the father. If the woman gets the charge first,
the child will remember her.
Speaker 2: On that.
Speaker 4: Abdelaphan Saddam said, I testify you with them, apostle lot.
Now before you answer, I want you to catch it,
and I have more right here narration, but I want
you to catch what he said. Here he said, if
the man goes first, Jah gonna look like Daddy and
Daddy's brother. If the woman discharges first, baby gonna look
like Mama and Mama's brother. Right here now, Saddam said,
these answers show you a prophet. So my first question,
please answer it honestly. He said, no one knows the
answers except a prophet. Well, Abdelaphan Saddam wasn't a prophet.
How do you know the answers? He just said, pay attention.
Only a prophet knows these answers. But Abdelaphan Saddam is
not a prophet. How do you know all these answers?
And Mama is right?
Speaker 12: But is this saying that it came out of Muhamma's mouth.
Speaker 4: It says he came out of Gabriel. Gabriel has just
now told me their answer. So it came worse. It
came out of Gabriel's mouth.
Speaker 12: What but this is not a This is not a sura.
Speaker 2: And is this.
Speaker 4: Because if you're going Krono. Then I'm gonna make you
more problem that if we go to chapter eighty six.
Are you Koran only?
Speaker 12: No, I'm not, I'm just I was just asking.
Speaker 4: This is Sahi el Buhari, Sahi el Buchari. Okay, So
again the answer the first question, if only a prophet
knows the answers. Look, let me read it again. Abdullah
ben Saddam heard that the arrival of the prophet of Medina.
He came to him and said, I'm gonna ask you
about three things which nobody knows except the prophet. No
one knows except the prophet. Well, Abdullah ben Saddam is
not a prophet. How did he know the answers? M
how do you know the answers? Can you answer that?
Can come to the second point.
Speaker 12: Sorry, I don't even first that first thing was breaking
up on my end. I think it's my WiFi. But
you said, I'm going to actually just highlight how did highlighted? Please,
I'm going to I'm going to ask you about three
things which nobody knows except for a prophet. So you're
asking me, how does he know.
Speaker 4: Because there's Abdullah bin Salama prophet.
Speaker 1: No, how do you know that?
Speaker 4: Mohammed is right. If only a prophet knows the answers,
he must.
Speaker 1: Have asked him logically, how does he know that Mohammad's right?
When Mohammad gives the answer, How does he know Mohamma's right?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: From uh through a revelation. So he's getting revelation that
Mohammed's right. I haven't.
Speaker 14: I don't know where this is going or I'm materials
come back.
Speaker 4: But here's the second question. Is that what you didn't
get it? Do you agree with Gabriel? Gabriel and you
look at this guy talking about the son that I'm
going to have you read the Senate in Arabic on
so dot com. The guy in your conversation Gabriel said
the answers. So who gave Gabriel the answers?
Speaker 1: Illave?
Speaker 4: So Allah says, if your wife climaxes, your child's gonna
look like mommy and her brother. But Alla said, if
you climax is gonna look like you. So does Allah
know genetics?
Speaker 5: Because that's not he knows what he's playing, domb.
Speaker 1: He knows what this says.
Speaker 12: No, I don't. I have never seen this, so.
Speaker 1: You know what it's saying.
Speaker 12: But I'm saying that, yeah, all knowing. Of course he's
all knowing. But if that's the case, how is the
how is this incorrect? How is this incorrect? How is
it incorrect? And where is the too? How is this incorrect?
Speaker 4: When you get to the blackstone, make sure you kiss
the blackstone and touch it because it will interceed for
you on the day of judgment. Buddy, this is too
much for you. It's you're not getting it. It's okay, Hey,
Jesus guide you. Who's next?
Speaker 12: I do have a question.
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, you're gonna get where it was going.
Speaker 1: And he was playing with a Pokemon on a panel
and what's that?
Speaker 4: Bro?
Speaker 1: It's been a minute, yo, you hear me? Yeah, okay,
you can hear us. Yeah, yeah, I have a question.
It's not a very long Okay, it's on the thirty three.
Speaker 4: I think I can't even hear what is he saying?
Speaker 1: Three he's gonna ask about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it comes from Snai, Yeah, Sierra, and.
Speaker 16: Part because yeah, because I watched your video assumption and
you say that it speaks about the Lord, Okay, yes
it does. Okay, But then I've watched a Muslim video
which says that's like in Exodus seven seventeen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it says that the Lord will you.
Speaker 2: Know, we.
Speaker 1: The blood in the in the water.
Speaker 2: You know, what care?
Speaker 4: What is he saying?
Speaker 11: Like in Exogus seven seventeen, what about it? Yeah, it
says that's the Lord like he will hit the water.
Speaker 4: You know, he will do what He.
Speaker 1: Will hit the water, He will strike the water, he
will turn the blood. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: What do I got to do with God being there?
As you read excess seventeen, But did you read the
same Exodus seventeen or in Exodus thirteen, twenty one and
twenty two. In Exodus fourteen nineteen twenty six, is the
Lord was there in the pillar of cloud guiding them?
He was actually there?
Speaker 1: It's not my point. Can I tell you my point? Yeah?
Speaker 4: You're I know at your point. Let me let me
tell me if I got right? Yeah, it just the Lord.
Let me see if I got the Lord is there.
It doesn't mean him. It can be Moses acting for
the Lord.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 12: Yeah, in this seven you didn't answer it.
Speaker 4: Here my question? Okay, here my answer. Let me try
it again the same Exodus you're quoting. In Exodus thirteen
twenty one, twenty two Exodus fourteen, nineteen twenty six. It
says the Lord is there in the pillar of cloud
talking to Moses, and Moses would going to the pillar
of cloud. So he's actually there, not simply working through
an agent.
Speaker 1: Okay. And is there the same thing in Paran and the.
Speaker 4: Yes, because if no, I'm in a screen share again,
it's like I gotta do a lot of screen sharing.
You got it up? Can you bring it up?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: You got it?
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 4: All right, here we go, Here we go. Was God
there with them and put on and tonight yep? Numbers ten, eleven, thirteen. Okay,
watch her on the twentieth day of the second month
of the second year. The cloud. There's the cloud right there,
right here. Lift it up from above the tamin of
the testimony. Then these lights set out from the desert
of SINAI traveled from place to place until the cloud
came to rest in the desert Paran. So I want
you to tell everyone Allah took Moses to Mecca while
they're in the desert, so they went to the Kaba
for a little while.
Speaker 1: Yay.
Speaker 4: So no, I want to want to because we want
to believe his mom And I want you to say
to everyone in numbers ten when all because he leaves
a lot in the cloud, he let Sinai, he went
to Mecca, and he brought Moses with them to Mecca.
So they went to Mecca and they stayed there for
a while, because it says the cloud went from Sinai
and went to the desert a paran.
Speaker 1: So what you believe now, you're you're Right's right?
Speaker 4: Thank you, that's it. It means.
Speaker 1: So why why why did you write in the end
that he was written in the previous pictures? Like why
did he did he write right that he was in
the previous scriptures?
Speaker 4: Moment, wait, I swear I can't hear your.
Speaker 3: My com he's saying, he's saying, why did he write
in the in the Qoran that Muhammad is in the
previous scriptures.
Speaker 4: That's our question to you. That's why we're saying Mohammed
is a false prophet because he didn't know what he
was saying.
Speaker 16: That's exactly our argument, because that's too big too, you know,
it's not too big, it's well, it's a big claim.
Speaker 17: Uh.
Speaker 3: And And the fact that within this big claim, there's
not a single reference to Muhammad being in the previous scriptures.
Speaker 1: It shows that he's a false prophet. He wasn't telling
the truth. That's that's the whole that's that's one of
our biggest arguments against this law.
Speaker 15: Okay, so repeat after me, I shall do? Can you
can you say the whole sentence?
Speaker 1: And then I, okay, I should do? Uh huh, I
shall do? I shall do illaha illallah? Yes, sure Alma,
I know what it means. Yes, sure.
Speaker 4: I can't say that, Yes.
Speaker 1: Sure Alma se wa kalima?
Speaker 10: Who I know?
Speaker 4: What is? Wow?
Speaker 2: Uh huh?
Speaker 4: Okay, By the way, do you know do you know
how a bic pokemon is that his name?
Speaker 13: No?
Speaker 1: I can a little bit speak of the jon.
Speaker 4: But you know why he's starting to take that shahada.
He wasn't lie.
Speaker 2: You know why?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I know it's a Jesus is the world.
Speaker 4: But why is he telling you to say that shahada?
You know what?
Speaker 1: Because in the anything that Jesus is the spirit.
Speaker 4: Now it's what you know, not only that in the Sahihari,
I'm gonna get it for you, Mohammad tells you that
the shahada isn't simply there is no God but a
lah and Mohammad is his messenger. Actually, no, let me
show you what the real shot is. If you can screenshare,
You're right, I'm gonna large it. Here's the real shadow.
Then the Muslims don't tell you. This is again because
if you ask the Muslims where do you get the
shadow from? You get it from the Ahdi Sahi.
Speaker 1: Hey, the shot is not in the Kuran. That's not there.
Speaker 4: You don't say you know that. But anyway, here watch her.
This is I should be red side collection of Albuhari.
All right, Bari, this is Sahi. Watch look what it says.
It says it is related from Junada. I'm sorry he
went to It is rated from Obada that the prophet said,
whoever testifies that there is no God but all alone
with no partner, and the moment is a slave and messenger.
That Asa is the slave of a lah and his messenger,
and a word which he casts into Miniam and his
spirit from him, and that the garden is real and
the fire is real, will enter the garden, whatsoever his actions.
This actually confirms over saying Earliel that Islam is a
Christian sect. Because the real shada you have to bear witness.
Asa is the son of Midian. The word of a
law cast the man and spread from him. And then
again here Sahi Muslim. Here it is the real Shahada
that the Muslims don't mention, the real chadda that the
Muslims don't mention because again they wanted to see people.
But it's okay, you're not a deceiver. That's why you're
going to leave a slam sooner or later in Jee's name.
But here it is narrowing on the authority of beIN summit,
that the message the law observed, he who said there
is no God but a law, he has one. There's
no associate with him. That Mamata is a servant, and
as message that crisis servant, the son of a slavery
slave girl, and his word which he commuted to marrying
a spirit, that paradise is a fact, that hell is
a fact. Allah will make him. He affirms these truths
enter paradise through any one. If it's eight doors, which
we would like. She was actually giving you the real shahada.
Speaker 1: Mhm.
Speaker 4: So I'll come to Muslims real shahada.
Speaker 1: In the shadow that we make in there in the sidlance.
Speaker 5: It's If you enjoy this video, be sure and take
use of the promo code for the show sponsor for
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Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 4: So here here Mohammed said, this is Sahi Muslim sa Klaudi,
the Sahihan and Mohammed site. You have to say this.
You can't just say lah el ila la and then
Mohammed is this messenger you have to finish it. And
right is Abdullah who his servant, the son of a
slave girl, his word which he committed to Mary in
a spirit. How come they don't tell you what the
real shot is?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: I have never seen that, to beest you know.
Speaker 4: That's why we have to go and do the homework
for you guys, and show you what they're hiding from you. Okay,
what they're hiding from you.
Speaker 1: I have a last question.
Speaker 3: The last the last time we spoke, we I think
we concluded that the New Testament was the jail, right,
and then now you're.
Speaker 1: Seeing all of this. No, that that's what's just I
just talked about the engine. Mm hmmm. I have no
other arguments, you know, for the insine you're right? So
so then what what what is it that? Man? What's
what's keeping you away from the truth about Jesus? And
why do you keep following?
Speaker 11: To be honest, I I'm not doing anything about Islam,
no good Like I'm just searching. But I every day,
like I listen to the Bible and I'm just keep searching.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I saw one dedo about this on meal like a
few days ago. So I came to this life stream
to ask the question. But I have no pretension to anything.
Speaker 4: Good man, you seem sincere. We're proud of you, man,
because the brother, if you're reading the Bible, the more
you hear about Jesus words, the more you're gonna fall
in love with God.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, No, you're nothing better to say. To be honest,
did you you said you have one final, one final question?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 11: That's how can we be sure? Because the hat this,
you know, it's too spatial, it's too too strange.
Speaker 4: What is How can we want?
Speaker 1: How can we be sure? That's? How can we exclude
the only view?
Speaker 4: Oh? That's easy, man, I'm feeling bad. We gotta get
Jay to start talking. Man, I feel bad.
Speaker 1: Jay.
Speaker 4: I don't want to keep talking. But let me answer that.
Speaker 1: I got a topic for j next. I'm good.
Speaker 4: Hey, let me let me let me answer you, my
brother inmanity. If you don't go to that eth, this
is why you can't be Koran Only if I ask
you when was the Koran sent down? Can you show
me the answer from the Koran? No, when it says
Mohammad four times? Oh, the name Mohammed only appears four times?
Can you tell me this Mohammad when you lived from
the Koran? No, but that's that's important, in the very important,
because then you're telling me Koran only, because if you
go kron only, you can't tell me when the Koran
was written, to whom was written and where?
Speaker 2: What do you mean?
Speaker 11: Yeah, because if someone is need he would say that's
it's uneven tote you know nothing more.
Speaker 4: But how do you know how many chapters make up
the Koran? And how many verses make up each chapter?
Where does the Koran tell you that? How do you
even know what the Koran is? Because someone gave you
a Koran? Okay, well, hold on, where did it come from? No?
Speaker 1: The Quran says it's a book from.
Speaker 4: Can you show me the Koran where it tells you?
And this book has one hundred fourteen chapters? How do
you know what book? Are you getting it? Now?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I can see, because the point is you forgive me
a Koran. It has one hundred fourteen chapters, all right,
each chapter has number of verses. Then I ask you, okay,
where in the Quran does it tell me this book
has this number of chapters and this number of verses.
How do you know how many chapters make up the
chron how many verses.
Speaker 1: It's because it says that it has never changed. So
if we trust it, what hasn't changed? So if we
trust it, we know that there are.
Speaker 4: Question what is the Koran that hasn't been changed? How
do you know that's the Kron?
Speaker 1: We can You cannot know for sure? You know exactly?
Speaker 4: So you can't be chrown only you gotta go to
that dis.
Speaker 12: Mmm.
Speaker 4: That's my point. And then there are things in the Kron.
I want you an answer from the chronolon. Let me
give you one chapter one eleven one Ye, yeah, curse
curson is and his wife right there cursed own?
Speaker 1: Who's it's? Because it's important, it was important at this moment.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but who's he?
Speaker 1: If we all put on we don't know you?
Speaker 2: Ah see?
Speaker 4: How about you? Thirty seven? When I mentioned saying who
the heck is?
Speaker 1: Say it? Yeah, we cannot know. Only is that important
for the for the theology?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very important because just because the book tells
me it came down from God? How do I know
it came down? When to whom? And what's the evidence?
If you just follow the chron you can't tell me
when it came down did it come down the Musa?
Did it come down at the time of Jeremiah. You
can't tell me from the Koran.
Speaker 1: M But there's also another layer.
Speaker 3: Another problem with that is that the Koran says that
it's detailed and explained about everything. So if the Koran
is detailed and explained about everything, then you shouldn't have
to go.
Speaker 1: Outside the Koran.
Speaker 5: It also relies on the Bible for a lot of
the stories and a lot of the you know, identifying
a lot of the people, and you know, we have
references to this or that prophet, and with nothing else
is said about then there's you know a lot of
ambiguities that require biblical revelations. So it can't be Corona only.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Okay. And what's your position about Islam? Was
it like a Christian thing? Or Muhammad did exists? Or
what do you think?
Speaker 4: Who are you asking?
Speaker 1: I'm who is almost to.
Speaker 4: Answer?
Speaker 1: Go ahead?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 4: I'm sorrying everyone's answer? Go ahead? So when I answer that, yeah,
you can, yes, Well, I I don't know what to
make up Mohmad because the traditions about Mohammad they're too
late and obviously I don't completely trust them. So I
don't doubt there was a Mohammed, but I don't know
what that Mohammad looked like. I can't tell you.
Speaker 1: I don't know what about you, Jay, what's your position?
Speaker 5: I mean, it could be a one guy or it
could be a collection of war lords. I mean, I
tend to think that Islam is a a bunch of
different myths and stories from the Talmud, from Christian studipigrapha,
from the New Testament, world traditions, arianism, all mixed together
into a religion that's malleable for any warlord or khlief
at any time to make it whatever they wanted to be.
Speaker 4: Yep, exactly. So I don't know, we don't.
Speaker 1: It's like a patchwork. Like a lot of things.
Speaker 4: Touchwork, most definitely the evidence, so you can see there's
a patchwork. It was badly edited.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3: I like to argue that Muhammad was originally a Christian
but then Uthman corrupted his story.
Speaker 1: But it speaks of the Nazarene.
Speaker 4: You know, that's another mystery. Who were the Nazarenes. And
even when you say Nazarenes, you have to then tell
me the time from the kron because when it says
the Masada. Okay, what Nosara? Where? And how do you
know when this comment was quote unquote sent down? What
year is this?
Speaker 1: You just go back from what I know. I know
that the nether means are the like the posterity of
the Church of James. That correct, or we can.
Speaker 2: Get into that.
Speaker 4: But before I do it, I'm saying, when the kron
mentions Thesara, what is the timeframe of that reference? When
I mean, because you're assuming in the seventh century, how
do you know that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have to take the Yeah, of course we
got problems.
Speaker 4: We got problems. And even when you tell you that
they're the group of James, if you've done your study
in church history, there are various Jewish groups.
Speaker 1: And they are I've just read it to you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they didn't all agree. I know a lot of
Muslims like to deal to thebu Nites, but they got
a problem with the Emi Knights. Because number one, if
you go with the Church Fathers, we are told that
there were even Knites that thought Jesus wasn't born of
the Margeon. Joseph sied Jesus. So if they're right, the
chron is wrong. So if those Ebiennites were right that
said Jesus was the physical seed of Joseph because he
got very pregnant. Koran is wrong. He is born of
a virgin, So are they right? Then you got to
stop being Muslim.
Speaker 1: Of course. But you know the Nazarenes before the ebu Knites, you.
Speaker 2: Know the.
Speaker 4: Christians. They mentioned a group of Nazarenes that actually did
accept trinity, but they kept the laws of Moses. So
I would say there are certain Jews. They worship God,
same God, Trinity, Father, Sunday Spirit. But their problem was
they followed the Jewish law. Okay, but if they're right,
the Churan is false again, so are they right?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah.
Speaker 4: And then a group of Abianites are said to have
been vegetarians. They they believe that Jesus absolved them from
eating meat. So if they're right, is a wrong again?
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So no matter what group you go to, Islam still loses.
Speaker 1: My friend, it's pretty bad. Mm hmm.
Speaker 4: These days are rough. Man, keep reading the bobble. You're
gonna come and worship Jesus?
Speaker 1: Yep? Maybe amen?
Speaker 4: You will?
Speaker 3: All right, Thanks for coming, Pokemon. You know you're always welcome. Man,
Don't let it be too long that you're that you're gone, man,
keep coming through.
Speaker 1: Keep asking questions. Thank you will all right, take care.
Speaker 3: All right, let's get to a couple of super chats,
and g says, my opinion is Muhammad was a white colonist.
Speaker 15: Damn.
Speaker 4: By the way, there are I say he was white?
Speaker 1: So she's say he was white and a black slave owner.
Damn gino. That's the here.
Speaker 3: Uh is Sam now a prophet. He's predicting their arguments
before they even speak.
Speaker 4: I shall do, I shall do, Sam shamuon sol Lah.
Speaker 3: We got Lovely who's always supporting the ministry, says Amen,
thank you Lord, God, bless your sisters.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, or brother, thank you so much
for your contribution. Appreciate it. We got David Rodriguez who says,
Jesus is king. That's right, is sh o bar, that's
what we do. And let me see one more here,
Oh this is good. Follow up. Jesus says, Mary is
the all power for God of Islam. She doesn't need
a mate to have a son. And here it is.
Absolutely it's such a fun argument to you.
Speaker 3: All right, For the next Muslim, I would like for
you guys to engage with us and tell us why
how heed?
Speaker 1: The concept of how heed is better than the trinity?
Speaker 12: Uh?
Speaker 1: Is taw heed simple? Does it make sense? Is it coherent?
Speaker 3: Come up and tell us how if you holde to
tell he? Well, you're a Muslim, so you better all right?
So we got off mid on the stage.
Speaker 1: How are you doing ill?
Speaker 2: Roight? Oh?
Speaker 1: Why is your name?
Speaker 4: Really?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: My name Jackman?
Speaker 18: Where you from? All from the landown?
Speaker 4: And okay, Cat, I'm the bobby.
Speaker 1: You might nice? So do you do you hope to
tell him? Okay, take it from there, jac So, Uh,
I got a question for you.
Speaker 5: If tal heat is true, are the attributes of all
law dependent amongst one another? Or are they independent in
their Are they asset in their existence?
Speaker 18: I mean attribute is from gold, isn't it?
Speaker 1: That's not in question? Are they independent amongst themselves or
do they have a dependence relationship?
Speaker 18: I mean gold has attributes the descript two.
Speaker 5: Okay, that's your argument just to stay the position.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean that it's I mean it's not it's
not this that so, I mean this is a historic
debate in Islam.
Speaker 5: Are are the attributes a say, do they have an
independent existence? Or are they dependent upon one another and
upon Allah's essence. I mean, that doesn't make sense, and
so the debates in your own tradition don't make sense.
Speaker 1: I agree.
Speaker 18: No, no, no, I mean, for example, saying, you know,
the attributes have a mind of their own, and if
the at the.
Speaker 1: Mind of their own, do they have the dependence relationship
upon one another?
Speaker 18: So his attributes is he is he doing what he encompasses?
Speaker 1: Well, he's doing is one of the attributes.
Speaker 5: But no, they're not all the doing.
Speaker 18: So okay, give me an example.
Speaker 1: So is there a relationship between Allah's say, his mercy,
his justice, his knowledge, and his essence? What's that relationship?
Speaker 18: That's that's his own, that's his pell, that's God's pell.
Speaker 5: Are those things distinct or are they all descriptions of
the same thing.
Speaker 18: They're all encompassing of the one God's capability?
Speaker 5: Are they really many or are they not really many?
Speaker 18: These many's God is transcendent.
Speaker 1: Believe ninety nine independent gods or one God? So those
are attributes. What's the relationship between the attributes and the essence?
That's what I'm asking.
Speaker 18: So as in for example, he's the most merciful, so
he's he's Moossy.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so you're just stating what the attributes are. I'm
asking what the relationship is because you said you believe
in taalheed, which is to unify, which is oneness. And
I'm asking you what's the relationship of these many things
that you're talking about to the oneness? Are they really
many or not?
Speaker 2: Really?
Speaker 18: There's many. We can say, here's many attributes because he's
a transcendent being. To be honest, or can't even comprehend
you know what God is capable of?
Speaker 5: Okay, so the Trinity is incomprehensible and God is three
three persons.
Speaker 1: What's wrong with that?
Speaker 18: I mean, we're putting somebody before God.
Speaker 1: How does that follow?
Speaker 18: I mean, so we have Jesus as God and we're
putting Jesus as the person the deity of God instead
of God himself.
Speaker 5: Jesus is God himself, So how would that be? I mean,
you would disagree, might disagree with that, but it's not
putting him before God. He's the son of God, the Father.
So why does that put him before God?
Speaker 18: Because we're putting something in between the worship of God.
Not if God is three persons, so I mean, is
good one in natural three in nature?
Speaker 1: Is he ninety nine or one?
Speaker 18: H he's one, he's one.
Speaker 1: Well, you said he was really ninety nine.
Speaker 18: A minute ago, I said, these are attributes, These are attributes,
these a sos.
Speaker 1: So she had the same problem. It's just you're not
calling them persons, you're calling them attributes.
Speaker 18: It's attributes because we don't believe he can manifest or
as income his own creation.
Speaker 5: Well, he doesn't become creation. He takes on human nature.
He retains and argue his divinity and his eternality is
uncreated status. But he can also add to himself a
created human nature to deify and restore it. But if
you can't, if a law can't do that, then how
do you have any knowledge of a law? If he
can't interact with the creative world.
Speaker 18: He can interact with the creative world, but he cannot
be when he speaks, you know, nature.
Speaker 5: Okay, when he speaks to Gabriel. Is there any similarity
between Allah's eternal speech and the created speech of the Quran?
Speaker 11: Uh?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 5: Oh, so then it doesn't tell you anything about the
eternal speech of Allah.
Speaker 1: No it does. But he just said there's no similarity.
Speaker 18: It's not it's not uncreated as in as in it's
already it's been the I mean.
Speaker 5: So is the Koran uncreated or created or both? It's
it's the word of God, So it's uncreated.
Speaker 18: God's word is I mean I can't feed them, I
mean you and me can't feed them have gold.
Speaker 5: So then I I can't fathom the mystery the incarnation.
Speaker 1: There you go, So you admit our position. Well, I
mean the Jews thing pro to a man. Are you
sure about that? You read the Old Testament? You ever
read the Old Testament? Okay?
Speaker 5: How many times does the Angel of the Lord appear
as I they oftening?
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, we're talking about what was it? Abraham?
And what I mean?
Speaker 5: I'm looking at Exodus fourteen fifteen right now, and the
Trinity is manifesting Exodus fourteen and fifteen from the previous discussion.
So it's not just Genesis sixteen seventeen eighteen. What you know,
it's all throughout Genesis, all throughout Exodus. I've done actually
a three hour lecture just on Theophanes in the Torah.
Sam's done a similar talk. So who more than you
has interacting with the worshiping in those instances.
Speaker 1: It's not the Father. So they worshiping three goods.
Speaker 5: So the Old Testament teaches a trinity, which now you're
now you're admitting, And so does the Quran tell us
to look to the teaching of Moses and the prophet
the Torah or not?
Speaker 18: No, I mean your interpretation of mes red boys say
ilse was.
Speaker 5: Well, rabbis don't accept the Quran, so so what who
cares what rabbis say?
Speaker 1: No, I mean, you know, because the Torah is their
book of this croup. Well that just begs the question.
Speaker 5: It's is the Torah their bup or is it? Because
the Quran says.
Speaker 1: I could go to the torah is, but the revelation
came to them.
Speaker 5: Well, you're assuming that today's rabbinic Jews are identical to
the Hebrew Testament prophets, which I would contest because you
don't believe what the rabbis say about the Quran.
Speaker 2: Do you. I mean, so.
Speaker 1: It depends it depends what they say.
Speaker 5: You think, Well, the rabbis don't accept the Kuran, so
you don't believe what they say about the Koran.
Speaker 1: It depends what they say. They must say something.
Speaker 5: They accept the Kuran's revelation from Hasham.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, some do.
Speaker 5: Yes, Okay, Well, I can find rabbis that believe that
Jesus the Messiah.
Speaker 1: So how does that work?
Speaker 4: Was that?
Speaker 8: What?
Speaker 5: How's that relevant to the point of what is the
Old Testament itself to do? So is a it's a
fallacy to say that, Well, these later groups don't accept that,
So what does the Old Testament reveal it?
Speaker 4: Go Ah, I don't mean to cut you out. You
want to challenge them on not assertion, and I won't interrupt,
But buddy, would you say the rabbis accept the churn
as a revelation. That means those rabbis would accept Jesus
Messiah born of a virgin. Yet those rabbis saying Jesus
is not the Messiah one of the virgins. So are
you lying to Jay or you're trying to deceive yourself?
Go ahead, Jay, want.
Speaker 18: To make sure because you know some some Jenis believe
that the Quran was revealed to you know, the Jentles,
you know, the the sons of Ishmael.
Speaker 5: Well, I mean again, you could find somebody who's a
Jew who believes in everything from Satanism to Luciferianism to
Messianic Christianity, Judaism. I mean, this is really irrelevant to
whether the Old Testament teaches in the Torah that there's
three persons and that there's theophanies that are prayed to
and worshiped and called Yahweh. So that's a deflection, has
nothing to do with whether the Old Testament actually says
this doesn't matter what later rabbinic people believe.
Speaker 18: Okay, So I mean, how do we come to this
conclusion that it mentions the three good persons.
Speaker 5: Because there's dozens of references to Jahweh, his Angel, spirit
and or seeing his Angel, Messenger, Messenger of the Covenant
and the Spirit. So you either have to say all
those texts are corrupted, at which point the Koran is false,
or you have to admit that the Old Testament Jews
were not worshiping a unitarian duty.
Speaker 1: Boom boom, So.
Speaker 18: Was Jesus, the Spirital was Jesus the Angel.
Speaker 5: Jesus identifies himself as the Angel of the Lord in
John five, six, seven, eight nine when he debates with
the Pharisees.
Speaker 1: Over this topic.
Speaker 5: Okay, what does it say, No one has seen the
Father at any time? But he tells in that chapter
in John five that he was the one speaking face
to face with Moses.
Speaker 4: That's another question. Hold on, uh, what's his name because
I don't see his name?
Speaker 1: My name?
Speaker 4: Okay, before you ask him a question, and I'm gonna
show you. You understand your Koran, Jesus is the.
Speaker 1: Right and the from Yes, from God.
Speaker 4: Yes, okay, So when you ask him of Jesus, angel
is the spirit, an angel by nature of spirit, so
Jesus being the angel would be spirit by believe isla, you.
Speaker 18: Believe it is, so he was supported with the spirit
of Moo.
Speaker 4: The Qoran calls him r men who seventy one, which
is why Enda had the slam tradition. He's called a law.
Let me show it to you and then sorry, j
just want him to college that he believes Jesus is
the spirit of God.
Speaker 2: Can you shore?
Speaker 4: Let me just show him? Oh sorry, let me spreenshare
brother Alam because I yeah, there you go, and then
you can take from judge. You want to make sure
that he doesn't go too fast because it's your dean.
Based on four one seventy one, Asa mu Anhu and
then according to the hadis one of the honorific names
of asa is ruh ha la ruh hala spirit of
God a special time Muhammad to Jesus. Concise Section Islamic Terms,
page fifty seven. And in the stories about Jesus, his
followers call him yah uh a Lah. Here, oh spirit
of a Lah. You believe he's the spirit of God.
Go ahead, I just want to make sure that's.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Go ahead, And did you have a comment on that?
Speaker 18: Yeah, I mean, I'll go to so it's said one
seventy one. It talks about you know, the messenger of
but a messenger of a Lah and his word which
he directed to marry and a soul created at a
command from him.
Speaker 4: He doesn't say soul. You're lying to me or you
don't know Arabic men who. It doesn't mean verb create
and r is not the same as nefts. The word
for soul is enoughs This is men who from him,
and don't say ruhen created? Where's the verb for create?
Speaker 1: Where's the verb? Because you have to you have to
understand that there's multiple meanings to the.
Speaker 4: Word about the angel that we're going to talk about
the training, because that is are going to change. You
want to talk about che.
Speaker 5: No, I mean, go ahead, continue I mean if he's
wrong about this topic and needs to wrong.
Speaker 1: I mean you know, I mean you know R has
a double meat.
Speaker 18: Look, there's a double meaning to you can say spirit
picking things up.
Speaker 1: No, it means the mean soul spirit.
Speaker 4: If you will, you're making things up. Nowhere in the
tran will you find the word used for humans. Humans
are called soul nefs. The word rue is only used
for Asa and the rule of God. It's never used
for humans. When humans are spoken of, it's the word
nef's soul. So you're making things up? Stop making things up?
In fact, the exact same expression listen so I can
show you ruhin Minhu. That same phrase is used in
chapter fifty eight twenty two of the kron where it's
also alls strengthens the believers. Ruhin Minhu a spirit from him.
So stop making things up. If you don't know, it's okay.
So you don't know, because if you speak and ignorance,
if God is real, your God is is gonna punish you.
Speaker 18: Say hello, wan so little because because I'll not look
the same.
Speaker 1: Look, I know what means.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna make it easy for you. Show me a
single verse where it says humans are rule spirit.
Speaker 18: If you look at the Arab dictionary, I'm gonna do
jaz on you show it to me.
Speaker 1: If you look at the Arabic dictionary and you look
at the rule, I.
Speaker 4: Didn't ask you. I asked you for all this dictionary
the Quran. Show me in the Quran where the word
the rule is used for a human that humans are.
I didn't ask your dictionary. So ye, I said, it's
gonna be your jenaza ah. The dictionary did not come
from the seventh heaven.
Speaker 1: Yep. So with Jesus a human, thanks for it's change object.
Thanks shame.
Speaker 4: Okay, that's what moment is a shame. Did you see
that I'm quoting Kuran. They want to quote dictionary. I
didn't know the dictionary is why he sunned down from Jabe.
Speaker 1: And that's your mistake. You didn't know that. I learned
once you, Once you figure that out, that deviation will
lead your heart. Thank you, sir.
Speaker 3: All right, So we got one of your old friends
here that is excited to see you, and uh, you know,
I'm just go ahead and let them let them do
a thing here.
Speaker 4: Yes, uh this guy.
Speaker 2: Still yeah, yeah, she's still married to me.
Speaker 4: The preserver she at least worships the Trinity. So but anyway,
Jay wants to ask you questions about Jay.
Speaker 17: Go ahead, help help my wait wait, wait, wait, because
I want to catch up on the last word you say.
Besides to be honest, I wanted to be a conversation
and discussion, not argument.
Speaker 4: You don't want to let me tell people are no?
Speaker 17: Look, look, look when I'm talking, please listen to me
to the end. Don't interrupt me, and let's enjoy this.
Can you for four years?
Speaker 18: Sam?
Speaker 1: You block?
Speaker 4: So people know why? I know you don't.
Speaker 2: You don't have to explain history.
Speaker 17: Let's start with talking about the rule, and let's Koran
answer the question about the rule a lot of Sura
forty two fifty two. He said, like, well, immen, well
and those we have revealed a spirit from our command.
Yet you did did not know the book nor the face,
but we make it a light.
Speaker 4: Who were What's my question about the spirit? Lets see
if you even know what my question was? What was
my question?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Here we are we start. I'm gonna look.
Speaker 19: Ward regarding that he is a rule.
Speaker 2: Hello, but you put it hello, but not mean a law.
The spirit of God, not the spirit of God. Please
please please.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got. You gotta let your name
because you've been going on a minute.
Speaker 4: Let me now do on.
Speaker 2: You know if you heard I'm still young, you want
to leave more. I don't want Janaza now please, I.
Speaker 4: Don't want you.
Speaker 2: Wait wait wait wait.
Speaker 4: Yeah, go to the Blackstone for you guys. If you
guys don't know this dream. I debated this guy. He
manifested in the debate. He blasphem Jesus, and I obliterated him,
annihilated him, made his prophet cry from hell. You could
go watch it the beat on my YouTube channel. We
were having a debate. He insulted, blaspheming Jesus, and I said,
the gods loves are off. I made his profit cry
from the pit of help. By the way, I don't
know if you were there. He was actually I think
in the video and to his credit, by the way,
I believe he was in the video or he was
there when I believe Hattune Guy's fact checked me either
got slapped. I think he was there, not that he
condoned it. To his credit, he didn't condone it, but
he was there the background in speaker's corner.
Speaker 1: But go ahead, that was just a nice little for
me as for my gift to you, Sam I.
Speaker 4: They don't listen. Misrepresentative argument.
Speaker 1: Loved it.
Speaker 4: Uh so the guy's married to a Catholic home poor woman?
What did she do to herself?
Speaker 1: Wow? Made the Lord continue to help her?
Speaker 2: All right?
Speaker 1: We got super chat from Manny.
Speaker 3: He says, hey, chat, GBT, how do you follow Jesus
Christ when you know nothing about Jesus Christ?
Speaker 1: How does that work? Be a Muslim? Easy? Easy as pie?
And we also got a shout out for Ap. Were
you at ap?
Speaker 3: We got Yah Yah in the building. Man Ap ain't
nowhere to be found, all right, So let's go ahead
and oh, actually got a question for you Jay. Here
is Jay familiar with John of Damascus and him dealing
with Islam?
Speaker 1: I'm sure he is. And can he say something short
about it? Thank you?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that came up earlier in the debate.
We the very beginning we discussed John about John writings
on this. Yeah, I mean, I think the overall he
was vindicated in modern scholarship in terms of his thesis
on where it came from. You know, the story is
that he was described to you know, one of the
early colleagues. So he knew do it pretty directly. He
said it was influenced by arianism and historianism. That's been
vindicated by modern academic scholarship. The Oxford Handbook Islam vindicates that.
But I think probably, you know, after his time, Islam
evolved into different traditions, different schools or you know, Akida.
So it's it's very valuable and he's right about the basics.
But I think in order to you know, really address
Islam and in terms of apologetics, we need more than
just the early Saint John Damascus Arab.
Speaker 3: Awesome, awesome, thanks for that. Jay, we got a super
chef from Andrew. Love you, Avery, and I love your work.
Thank you for reigniting the flame that feels my love
for Christ. Amen, Glory to God. My question for you,
is there any significance to the singing to singing trash
in the camp from Tarzia. Yeah, it's usually when I
sing that little melody, that's usually when the Muslims are
searching for something I said, they make a claim I may,
I ask them to prove it, and they're taken forever
to prove it. So that's the little intermission song that
I sing to pass the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so those are little funny thing.
Speaker 5: One thing I'd like to add before we go to
the next guy is that you know, whenever we hear
this argument. I know you guys know this, but for
the people in the audience, when you hear this argument
that all the Bible's corrupted, in the mind of the Muslim,
I think most of the time they're thinking that, oh,
it's going to be this verse over here or that
verse over there. When you really know the Bible really well,
for example, to say that the Old Testament, when it
demonstrates a tryad or it demonstrates they often needs which
proved the deed to Christ or whatever like. They're not
understanding that this would be a vast corruption all throughout
the Old Testament, this would be a vast corruption throughout
the Psalms.
Speaker 1: Which predict the coming of the Messiah as Christ.
Speaker 5: I mean, in other words, you're really admitting like corruption everywhere,
and they don't usually think about that scale or that
scope of corruption. They're thinking that, oh, there's one verse
that they use to prove the deed Christ and John somewhere.
Speaker 1: No, No, the whole gospel's corrupted. It is masked.
Speaker 5: So now you're admitting that the prior revelation in mass
is corrupted, which really again undoes the whole argument.
Speaker 1: Yep, exactly. That's good.
Speaker 3: All right, guys, before we bring this next guest up,
I think I need to say for us to make
sure we're hitting the like button. We got Sam Schamon
in the house. We got Jay Die in the house cooking. Guys,
Let's make sure we get the likes up.
Speaker 4: We got us four thousand, five.
Speaker 1: Hundred exactly, we got all the lunch. Shoot, we got
almost five thousand people watching, guys.
Speaker 3: Uh so, everybody that's watching from Sam's channel, everybody watching here,
everybody smashed the like. But if you're watching on god
log of the channel, let's get the likes up to
four thousand likes. We got guys, forty two hundred people watching,
only two point three k likes. Let's get the likes
up to four thousand lights. Man, come on, this is you,
guys's way to support the stream, all right, So let's
do the same thing with if you're watching on Sam's channel,
get the likes up.
Speaker 1: Let's get the lights up to a thousand lights all right,
just sticking.
Speaker 4: Out, we got javery taking off getting ten thousand making money,
and Mere and Jay are panhandling to make it a
ministry exactly.
Speaker 3: These are my paid informance here. All right, let's go
with it. So, Omar, you are on the stage. Welcome, Omar.
Can you can you explain to us how how he
makes sense? Omar sa Nasa. Sorry, Omar, I saw you
un meet your mic.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 3: If you're playing games, man, I'm about to kick you off.
Going once, going twice, gone. All right, let's see here
we got Pablo.
Speaker 1: How you doing, Pablo? Are you Muslim?
Speaker 2: There?
Speaker 1: Come? Well, it's a love I think I remember you
came on a few days ago, right now? Yes, why
did you just speak English?
Speaker 10: Yes? Yes, listen, I give you the likes saying Mike,
get a light depends on how you.
Speaker 1: Act, depends on how Sam acts.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel it. I feel it depends on how
he acts. You you'll get that, you'll hit that light button.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, But I got I got a question.
Speaker 3: Wait, wait, our question first is, since you're a Muslim,
you followed you follow tall Heed? Right, yeah, you believe
that taw heat is what did you say?
Speaker 1: What did you say? And so.
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: You do you?
Speaker 13: Uh?
Speaker 3: Do you hold to the theological belief in taal heed
and Islam, the one that yeah, the one that's in
unification of all law and.
Speaker 1: Okay, and you believe that that's that's true and it's coherent.
Speaker 10: Yes, I love I love the tall heat he teaches
teas is me how how a law is one? He
has never begotten or never was begotten?
Speaker 1: H and and and he he he is the creative
of everything. Okay, nice, All right?
Speaker 2: Jay?
Speaker 1: Did you want to comment on that? Is he does
he have ninety nine attributes.
Speaker 8: A law?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: He has?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 5: Yeah, he has many astributes, sir? Do they depend upon
one another? Is there an interdependence relationship?
Speaker 1: Is a law dependent on his attributes? Do the attributes
have a dependence relationship amongst one another? No, I'll say no.
Speaker 5: Oh, so they're not really distinct?
Speaker 1: Is he just one?
Speaker 5: And he appears to be having ninety nine attributes?
Speaker 10: A law is one and his attributes do not. His
attributes are don't are not dependent?
Speaker 1: So they self exist? Do they self exist? Yeah? I'm
not I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Speaker 5: Well, if they're not dependent, then they're independent, meaning they
are self existent. So you believe in ninety nine self
existing powers? Yes, Oh, so you're a polytheist.
Speaker 10: Now I believe in the Law and all his attributes.
Speaker 5: Well, you just said there's ninety nine self existing attributes.
So they don't require any other thing to exist. That's
what self existing. They're independent. If they're not dependent, then
they're independent, right, yes, okay, so then you believe in
ninety nine gods.
Speaker 1: So how are you a monethist.
Speaker 10: I don't believe that they depend on the Law. I mean,
I mean don't depend on his attributes.
Speaker 5: So they're independent. That means they don't they exist on.
Speaker 10: Their own, don't need his attributes.
Speaker 1: He doesn't need his attributes. No, so then they're not.
Speaker 5: So they're so he has changeable attributes.
Speaker 1: They come and go. All his knowledge comes and goes,
he loses it, he throws it.
Speaker 10: No no, no, no, his not not his not his
knowledge and his attributes. But they're two different things.
Speaker 1: Knowledge is not one of the attributes.
Speaker 10: All all knowledge, all knowing is one of his attributes.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's okay. I like five contradictions in a row.
I don't know where to go.
Speaker 5: I mean, either they're dependent or they're independent. They're independent,
then you have ninety nine gods.
Speaker 10: No, there's one god. He has many names. He goes
by many names.
Speaker 5: But you said they're all independent, so they don't need allat.
Speaker 10: They don't need Yeah, no, a law don't need it,
dumb a law don't need it.
Speaker 1: That they were independent, not allaw. You know, let's bring
up somebody that maybe can help him out. Armando? What's
that man? You think you can help?
Speaker 4: Oh? My goodness, man comes out?
Speaker 8: This is painful.
Speaker 4: What are you doing?
Speaker 2: Guys?
Speaker 1: Hey?
Speaker 8: What's about then?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 8: Nice to meet you? Nice to meet you. Hello, Avery again,
we have left time.
Speaker 4: Okay, what kind of actually that name? Armando?
Speaker 1: What are you?
Speaker 8: I'm from Venezuela, but I'm Muslim?
Speaker 4: Were you born Muslim?
Speaker 8: Or you can it born Muslim?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Okay because the name Armando. Sorry I just got thrown off.
Speaker 8: Also, I want to say to the comment in private chair.
Speaker 3: And forget the comment. Forget the comments, We get the
private chests, focus on the discussion.
Speaker 4: You ask me some Pablo you are you? Are you
you converted to a Slam?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 10: I was raised Catholic.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so how long you've been Muslim? Pablo?
Speaker 12: Uh?
Speaker 10: A couple of months?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 4: Well, what I need you to do? Even when we're
done here, reach out to me on Skype when you're done,
because I want to well get a chance. I want
you to talk to me one on one when you
get a chance. All right, So here's my Skype name.
Speaker 2: You got it?
Speaker 10: That's right.
Speaker 1: You take a picture you see it? Yeah, I got it.
Speaker 10: I snapped it.
Speaker 4: Contact me on Skype later because we can't just focus
on you. And I want to talk to you about
why you became Muslim, because he seemed like a respectful
chap and if you're respectful, we can be respectful. But
stick around, don't leave. So go ahead. I just want
to make sure.
Speaker 1: Go ahead. And so, so you heard what you was
hearing was painful.
Speaker 3: I'm allowing you. I'm allowing you, Amanda, to you know,
help help your brother out, help Pablo out a little bit.
Where you think it was painful?
Speaker 2: What do you what?
Speaker 1: What mistakes did you hear? Where do you think he
could do better?
Speaker 11: I mean.
Speaker 1: A loss?
Speaker 8: Attributes like they come from their name, right, So he
has many names, but in Islam, unless attributes are not
independent or separate from his essence, like they're not independent,
like each name of a law is independent on his own,
like like it's not like ninety nine names or ninety
nine gods, Like, we don't see.
Speaker 1: It that way.
Speaker 5: I understand that you don't have that position, but you
have to give some account for and what since their
many and what since they're different? And your own history
has tried to do this. You had fights and battles
over this in the first few centuries. So I'm always
curious to hear how they how you guys give an
account for the multiplicity? Right, So are the names really
different or are they identical?
Speaker 8: No, like for example, a lost attributes like for example,
his names like knowledge and Arabic or power, mercy and
such and such like they don't there are not independent
on their own, like they're not separate from his essence.
But for example, like when they say a lie aline
alanine or knowing right, his knowledge is not separate an entity,
like his knowledge is not an entity on his own,
is simply one of the perfect aspects of his essence.
Like we don't consider his attributes.
Speaker 5: Like, so you think the attributes are the essence because
actually part of his essence. Yeah, so all has parts.
What do you mean you just said part of his essence?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 8: No, no, no, those are those belong to his essence
or who he is?
Speaker 1: So are they part he has?
Speaker 8: Finger?
Speaker 1: Are they part whole relationships or not parts?
Speaker 8: No, they're not independent.
Speaker 5: There there who just said are they part wholes?
Speaker 1: You use parts, not me?
Speaker 8: Okay, but like you're taking the word part like you
use the word part, not me, right, But what I
mean is that it's not like parts, like different parts
of a body. It's just like the attributes of a
law or who he is, Like like does this Christ?
Speaker 1: Who is? But wait a minute, most Muslims? Are you
a Shia? No, I'm sure, But so every sooner you I've.
Speaker 8: Ever heard, even Avery shake you're gonna let me.
Speaker 5: Every sooner I've ever heard of believes that there's really
a distinction between all and I mean its attributes. Every what,
every sooner I've ever debated with believes that there really
is a difference between all and his attributes, that they're
not identical and they're not the same as his essence.
Speaker 8: I mean, that's part of his divine essence.
Speaker 1: It's not like a Now you're saying parts again, So
is it parts holes or not?
Speaker 8: I mean, I say parts, but the way I mean it,
like it's like that's who he is. You're taking me
saying parts like he has different parts, like different parts
of my body. But no, it's like who he is
is this comes back on camera.
Speaker 1: I I whened to see a beautiful face.
Speaker 4: Man hold on a thing by the way, before Jake continued,
I just wanted curious because you said you're Sudney and
you said it's not like your body. I just want
to make for clarification because I haven't.
Speaker 8: Because I think it's Spanish, and then my English is
kind of like.
Speaker 4: It's okay, I don't problem in English. I just want
to know though good English, Bablo, Man, don't forget to
contact me. Now. Though you say you're Sudney, do you
believe what the set of facial I believe that Allah's
foot his shin unlike anything in creation. But he does
have a foot and a shin.
Speaker 10: Yeah, but not like mine or yours.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Bablo, I know that man. I know your selfe
we talked. I want to know his position because he
just told Jay Allah doesn't have parts like me, parts
of my body. But I want to know if he's
a cell efie. Does he believe a lot hands? But
you don't make real you don't say, oh, hand means power. No,
he has hands, but unlike anything creation. Is that what
you believe?
Speaker 8: No? No, no, no, Like when I say like the
attributes of from now are part of him, I'm not
saying part of him, like like different parts of a body,
like no, No, I know.
Speaker 4: That I would to believe about Allah's foot and shin
and hands and eyes. Do you believe he has actual
eyes unlike anything?
Speaker 8: No, actually without the offense of like in the Quran,
like if you translated to English, it's like he has
the knowledge, like he has the power of thing without eyes,
like he can hear with it.
Speaker 4: Then you're not Selffie. You're just with Pablo because you
are then Asher. Because Pablo says, no, Allah has a
foot unlike anything creation, you said no, and you're both sunny.
So now, Pablo, let me ask him something you just
said because you're selfie. Allah has an actual foot unlike
your foot, right yeah, and he has hands unlike your hands.
Right yes, but he said, and he said he's saying no, no,
hands means power. So which of you are right about this?
Speaker 10: Hands means power?
Speaker 4: Sam, you said, he said, mmm, you just said Armando,
you said in Arabic the hands, we would say power.
So does he have actual hands or no?
Speaker 8: When did I fagn Arabic?
Speaker 4: You just said two minutes ago that when I'm reading
Arabic hands, when we say thing, you mean power. It's
don't nott rewind that clip. But okay, do you believe
Allah has hands?
Speaker 1: Yes? Or no?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 15: No?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 4: Okay? Then why argue with me? So, Pablo, does Ala
have actual hands?
Speaker 1: I don't know about it?
Speaker 2: Said hands? I know he has a.
Speaker 4: Hand, okay, ah hand, but does he says he has
two right hands, But does he have an actual hand?
That's unlike anything right? Yes, but here Armando says no,
he does and have But you're both.
Speaker 5: And historically they call each other idolators.
Speaker 4: By the way, really, Jay, you can take it from
there now.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean this is exactly The point was to
point out that you guys don't actually have a coherent conception.
It's all he You don't even know whether there's body
parts or not.
Speaker 3: Jay, you mean to tell me, yeah, but what on
Armnic because I need a clarification. Jay, you mean to
tell me that within Islam, within Sunni Islam, they're not
even united on.
Speaker 1: The most basic the most, the most coherent concept of
God because there's oneness and uniqueness. They're not they don't
just have one single belief on that.
Speaker 5: I thought it was simple, right, it's supposed to be
and it was supposed to be clear and simple.
Speaker 8: But good, yeah, pretty good.
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 10: Yeah okay. But no, so y'all y'all making it difficult.
Speaker 4: No, no, you guys' this is y'all disagree.
Speaker 2: No, but I didn't.
Speaker 13: I didn't hear the man say that average big hands
means power.
Speaker 2: I didn't even hear the no.
Speaker 1: But he just said what they believe, Pablo.
Speaker 4: He just said Allah doesn't have a hand. You said
he does, unlike anything.
Speaker 8: Okay, So in Islam, the question of whether Allah has
a hand like if if it's approached differently, it's like
in a metaphorical understanding, not his position. No, okay, let
me ask a question.
Speaker 4: Let me just tak it. Let me take a certification.
The celeffie like Muslim metaphysician will tell you Allah has hands.
It's more than one because of chapter thirty eight, verse
seventy five of the Koran. But we put that aside.
He has a foot, yesertion. He debated jay Go watching
the bag. He says it, yes, but he says unlike
anything you amandor saying no he doesn't have a hand,
the celaffie say he has, saying hand, it's unlike any hand.
You're saying no he doesn't have a hand. That's you're
not saying the same thing.
Speaker 8: Yeah, But like, can I ask a question like, hey, Paulo,
how how long you've been a Muslim?
Speaker 13: Ah about I say about let me see October twelve
mm hmm okay, so.
Speaker 4: October thirty first, didn't you come with some one Halloween? Oh?
Speaker 8: Come on, okay, No, come on man, Okay, no, don't
don't do that to Okay. So like when we say
hands and stuff like that about the life in a
metaphorical perspective, not like because.
Speaker 4: Armando you you're the one putting him down. No, you're
saying all Muslims agreed to they don't. I just mentioned
there are Muslims like check Assem and Hakim, the Abu
Amina Bilal Phillips, even Muslim metaphysician. They take Pablo's positions.
See when you ask him how long are Muslim? See
you're trying to say, oh, you just came to a stime.
You don't know. No no, no, no, no, no, okay,
but do you want to now agree so we can
get to the next point you have In Sunia Slam,
you have people that say these are the sefat the
attributes of the law. He has a hand, even check
he says it. He has a hand, he has a foot,
he has a shin. We don't say it's metaphorical, but
it's unlike any integration. They don't take your position on Mando.
So you're you keep thinking, also needs agree with you.
They don't.
Speaker 8: I'm not saying alson disagree with me, okay, but what.
Speaker 4: Your view is right?
Speaker 8: I mean, I just my view is according to what
I read in the Koran. And then when I ask
to my chef, and when I go to the mosque
and I ask questions because I cannot sit here and
be like, oh, I'm a scholar, of course, But when
I read and I have questions, I ask him, this
is what I've been educated.
Speaker 5: So when I read, when I read sunny text that
say that the anthropomorphis or heretics and committing shirk, which
one's right?
Speaker 8: Can you repeat that question?
Speaker 5: I read sunny scholars that say that anthropomorphists are idolators
in committing shirk.
Speaker 1: How do I which one's right.
Speaker 8: For morphous I'm not familiar the sella who says hands
and foot but they're not not aphorical.
Speaker 4: Your group say they are heretics.
Speaker 8: He keeps faming my group. I don't have a group.
Speaker 1: Okay, So he so he doesn't know.
Speaker 5: Within Islam you have akida schools.
Speaker 1: Making up right.
Speaker 8: So when when I read like God has hands or
or or he has judgment or whatever, I don't see
it as a as like human understanding of like hands.
Speaker 4: Like that's not the argument, Pablo Armando. No, let me
repeat the argument more time, Okay, Okay, No one is
saying that the celea fees believe Allah's hand is like
human hand. No, No, he has a hand unlike any hand,
but he has a hand.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 8: I don't necessarily support that, Okay.
Speaker 4: But then I have a question for you.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 4: If you're telling me the hands of a law means
power his power, right?
Speaker 8: No, I didn't say that.
Speaker 4: Okay. Now, what does it mean when it says Allah
has hands for the love of Islam?
Speaker 8: Okay, what does it mean you're saying that? I say
hands means power? Attribute whenever I see an attribute like,
I don't see it in a like in a way
that we humans see it like in Islam. It's very
it's very clear, it's very basic context of Islam that
you're contradicting yourself.
Speaker 4: You just told me that you say it's matter a floricle,
and I told.
Speaker 8: You it's metaphorical.
Speaker 1: It's not like we're doing.
Speaker 4: So what does the hand mean?
Speaker 8: If it's a metaphor, it can mean different things according
to the context.
Speaker 4: Of Okay, give me some definitions of hands.
Speaker 12: Uh.
Speaker 8: Man, I have to go to the Koran.
Speaker 4: What come on, buddy Chorn. If it says Allah has
a hand, his hand is over you, what does that mean?
His hands over your hand.
Speaker 8: Over you's like? It can mean like protection, like he's
like he can protect you.
Speaker 4: Okay, When it says all I created Adam.
Speaker 8: With his hands, Yeah, with his power.
Speaker 4: Maybe with like But you just told me that hands
doesn't mean power.
Speaker 8: Yeah, because I never mentioned it until now you did.
When did I mention it?
Speaker 1: You mentioned it before we start?
Speaker 4: Can you share my screen for a second, I'm sorry,
then you can continue. Do you want to have answer
to this? You got my screen up because my pages
if you're telling me that Allah's hands means his power
when it says Allah created Adam is way okay? Well,
in this context you told me when Allah created Adam
with his hands, it means his power.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 4: Here Allah's telling it, beliez, oh blease, what prevents you
from prostrating thyself to one who I've created my hands?
So here when he tells the blase, I created Adam
with my hands, what does hands mean?
Speaker 3: Here?
Speaker 4: Where m Chapter thirty eighth of the Crown versus seventy
one seventy five? Here? Right, I'm gonna highlight it right,
Oh it please?
Speaker 8: Oh it please? What prevents thee from Australian thyself to
one who might have created with my hands?
Speaker 4: What his hands mean?
Speaker 1: Here? Uh?
Speaker 8: So it does the hands this verse speak about like
the hand of a love but in a contextating.
Speaker 4: What does he mean he created with his hands?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I want Armando's position. I want to see what does
it mean he created with his hands?
Speaker 8: Like in states like I see it. That's like a
lot of absolute power and control over act.
Speaker 4: We created Adam with his power, right right?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 4: But did he create Ablise with his power?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: So then what's the difference between Abliez