WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.680 You're listening to an air wave media podcast. 2 00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:10.400 Demons. In some religions, they're helpful spirits, in others their 3 00:00:10.439 --> 00:00:14.400 dire opponents. How can so many religions have such wildly 4 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:18.920 different ideas about these mysterious entities. We'll find out more 5 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:21.600 about this topic. Is a familiar voice joins us to 6 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:25.920 share her research. Munster Talks proud to welcome back doctor 7 00:00:26.039 --> 00:00:26.839 Karen Stoles. 8 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:28.120 Now it's actually. 9 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:33.240 Quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. A giant, hairy 10 00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:35.759 creature in part ape and part masts. 11 00:00:36.840 --> 00:00:39.920 In Luckness, a twenty four mile long bottomless lake in 12 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:42.560 the Highlands of Scotland, get a creature known as the 13 00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:43.520 Luckness Monster. 14 00:01:05.799 --> 00:01:10.760 Morenstertall, Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. 15 00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:13.560 I'm Blake Smith, and today I'm delighted to be welcoming 16 00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:16.680 back Monster Talk co host doctor Karen Stalls know whose 17 00:01:16.719 --> 00:01:19.640 hard work has brought forth two books that will no 18 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:22.439 doubt be of interest to our listeners. The what we're 19 00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:26.359 talking about today is all about unusual religious practices in America, 20 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:28.680 and this includes a few items that dip right into 21 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:32.239 Monster Talk territory. It's a well researched, fun to read 22 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:34.799 and highly informative book, and I hope you'll pick up 23 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:40.079 a copy. Now let's get to the interview moremstertall. All right, 24 00:01:40.120 --> 00:01:43.439 so Monster Talk welcomes back Karen Stallsno, who has recently 25 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:46.920 published two great books, first Haunting America, which is available 26 00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:49.120 on the kindle from Amazon, and the brand new work 27 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:52.959 God Bless America Strained and Unusual Religious Beliefs and Practices 28 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:55.640 in the United States, which is also available as an ebook, 29 00:01:55.640 --> 00:01:59.159 but it's also a very attractive tangible edition. You can 30 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:01.200 check the show notes for a on that. Welcome back, Kar, 31 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:04.719 Thank you Blake. Typically on Munstertruck, we've tried to steer 32 00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:08.439 away from religion, but I think Karen's new book does 33 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:10.240 cover from topics that will be near and dear to 34 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:14.159 monstrel lover's hearts. It's got voodoo and exorcism and even 35 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:16.159 a chater on the Church of Satan and how it 36 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:19.520 compares to the allegations of Satanic cults in America. So 37 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:20.240 this should be fun. 38 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:23.120 Yeah, and I think there's a lot of overlapping with 39 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:25.400 skepticism and humanism absolutely. 40 00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:29.719 So, first of all, how did a linguist like yourself 41 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:32.560 come to write a book about unusual religions. 42 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:37.120 Well, I think as an outsider coming from another country, 43 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:41.240 something I've always been interested in is culture and coming 44 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:44.879 here and seeing groups like the fundamentalist Mormons and the 45 00:02:44.919 --> 00:02:48.560 Amish and Mennonites, and certainly these beliefs and practices that 46 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:50.919 we don't have in Australia. I was fascinated by them, 47 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:54.039 and I started writing a book years ago called Red, 48 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:57.199 White and True Blue about my experiences as an Australian 49 00:02:57.240 --> 00:02:59.759 living in the States. And there are a lot of similarities. 50 00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:01.879 We have the same language, not the same dialect, but 51 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:05.120 the same language. Because there are so many similarities. When 52 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:08.039 there are cultural differences, they can really be quite a golf. 53 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:11.439 So I wrote that book and this is a kind 54 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:14.479 of companion book to that, but about religious beliefs and practices. 55 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:16.520 That's why I wrote this book. 56 00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:20.159 The book is about unusual religious practices. I don't disagree 57 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:23.319 with your choices, but how did you decide which religions 58 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:25.159 were unusual enough to be in the book. 59 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:28.360 Well, I'm not saying that there won't be a sequel 60 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:30.840 in future to cover some of the other religious beliefs 61 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:34.120 and practices that aren't covered in this one. But I 62 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:37.759 wanted to go with ones that are very popular, some 63 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:40.800 that Americans are very fond of, like the Amish, and 64 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:43.639 ones that we have a lot of stereotypes about as well, 65 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:46.560 and we don't really understand myths and misconceptions. To clear 66 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:50.159 a lot of those up, so I looked at minority 67 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:53.560 beliefs and practices, but also ones that are very very 68 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:55.199 infamous or famous from. 69 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:58.400 A monster perspective, I think, let's start with voodoo because 70 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:04.280 it ties into zombies, and I know most people know 71 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:07.280 it from zombies and voodoo dolls, but there's a lot 72 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:08.840 more to it, as you cover in the book, you 73 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:09.800 talk about that a little bit. 74 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:12.479 Absolutely, it is a religion. I think a lot of 75 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:14.840 people just think of it in terms of those stereotypes 76 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:18.680 of zombies and voodoo dolls, but there's certainly a lot 77 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:23.839 more to it now. It's as for the voodoo dolls alone, 78 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:27.800 they're not the cute poppets that you think of that 79 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:29.959 they had in England a couple of hundred years ago. Instead, 80 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:32.920 the real voodoo dolls are made of things like wax 81 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:37.079 and sticks and rope and wood, and they're not usually 82 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:39.680 something that you stab like a pin cushion. So that 83 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:42.720 you cause pain in a corresponding part of someone's body. 84 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:45.600 They do function as an effigy, so there's a lot 85 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:48.519 of sympathetic magic in voodoo, but they can also be 86 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:50.759 used for good spells too. They can be used as 87 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:54.639 a talisman or to attract good luck amulets as well, 88 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:56.639 so they're used in lots of different ways. 89 00:04:56.920 --> 00:04:59.759 Where did a voodoo come from? With you describe it 90 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:04.800 as of a hybrid religion of Western Africa and Catholicism, 91 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:06.399 So can you talk about that a little bit. 92 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:10.040 Well, it's got a very long history. It originally came 93 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:13.639 from i think the fond and New People and West Africa, 94 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:19.480 and it was transported to Haiti when the French colonies 95 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:24.600 were set up there and they transported slaves, so it 96 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:27.279 started there and there are different variants in other countries too. 97 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:30.480 There's ken Dombla which was brought over by slaves to 98 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:34.199 Brazil and Santa Ria, which was brought over to Cuba 99 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:38.079 with slaves. Voodoo was independently brought to the United States 100 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:41.879 as well with slaves who were brought here, So there 101 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:45.360 are lots of different variants, different spellings of it as well, 102 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.879 but by and large the religion doesn't have any doctrine, 103 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:53.199 so there's no voodoo Bible or anything like that. There's 104 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:56.279 no church. It's more of an oral tradition and it's 105 00:05:56.360 --> 00:06:01.160 changed over time. As you were saying, it's syncrotized with Catholicism. 106 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:03.759 So when it was taken to countries like Haiti into 107 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:07.399 the United States, the slaves were subject to something called 108 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:10.639 the Code Noir, so that was the slave code which 109 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:15.560 was set up by the French colonizers, and this basically 110 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:19.439 said that the slaves had to convert to Catholicism within 111 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:22.079 about a week of their arrival, so they weren't allowed 112 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:26.839 to practice their religion anymore. So, working as slaves, this 113 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:29.160 was something that was very important to these people. So 114 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:31.000 they held on to their religion, but they had to 115 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:34.040 protect it. They had to practice it in secrecy and 116 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:36.319 to hide it as much as possible. So the way 117 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:39.839 that they did that was to blend Catholicism into their beliefs, 118 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:44.720 and so they started using Catholic saints to represent the 119 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:49.079 voodoo spirits, and they started using Catholic prayers and novenas, 120 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:53.879 and so it really caused this it's called syncretization, a 121 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:56.040 melding of the two religions. 122 00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:57.279 Are the polytheistic. 123 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:02.279 Well, their monothe is they just believe in a single God, 124 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:05.519 but it's not quite the God that Americans would be 125 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:08.279 familiar with, God that you can petition with prayer, and 126 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:13.879 one who is involved in our daily lives. Instead, these 127 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:17.519 spirits actors and intermediary. So they're known by different names 128 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:21.120 in different religions. For Voodoo, they're known as lower or 129 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:25.160 Risha for Santaia, and so they function as intermediary between 130 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:31.360 us and between God, and they apparently participate in our 131 00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:34.079 daily lives. So when we have misfortune, they cause that 132 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:36.480 and they bring good luck if we treat them well. 133 00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:40.759 So the spirits are kind of like the Catholic saints. 134 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:44.600 They were believed to be once people who lived and 135 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:50.000 had exceptional lives, sometimes their relatives, sometimes their representations of 136 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:54.639 things in nature like the sun and water. So there 137 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:59.399 are some similarities to Catholicism, but certainly monotheistic, but have 138 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:00.319 a plethora. 139 00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:03.600 Of spirits right, And in addition to these saints that 140 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:06.560 we may recognize, they have the West African gods are 141 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:09.360 now treated in sort of the same way. They're also 142 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:11.439 kind of like saint like entities. 143 00:08:12.279 --> 00:08:15.680 Yeah, for example, Papa Lagba. He's a famous one. You 144 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:19.439 might see in some voodoo shops and New Orleans images 145 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:22.759 of him, the statues and faces of him. Usually he's 146 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:26.839 got Cowerie shells for eyes and so he is mildd 147 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:29.519 usually with Saint Peter, so he's recognized as Saint Peter 148 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:33.600 holding the key to Heaven. So they're just they're blended 149 00:08:33.639 --> 00:08:34.679 in with the Catholic Saints. 150 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:39.879 Wow. So if you wanted to set up a voodoo 151 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:43.120 practice or a voodoo there wouldn't be ness to be 152 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:45.360 a church, but there would be ceremonies. Are their leaders 153 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:46.639 within the group. 154 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:49.639 Or Yeah, they don't have popes or bishops, but they 155 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:51.519 do have priests and priestesses, so they're a bit more 156 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:55.000 progressive than the Catholic Church. So they in that regard, 157 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:58.320 they're not like Catholicism, but they've got priests who are 158 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:01.440 known as hougens and priestesses who are the mambos. 159 00:09:02.360 --> 00:09:07.480 Yeah, so what's a hold on or hold on? Yeah? Yeah, 160 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:11.279 I'm not sure, don't I think? 161 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:13.440 Probably because yeah, you dropped the. 162 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:16.440 H right, which. 163 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:17.639 Americans often do too with words like herbs. 164 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:22.120 They do, they do right. It's a long way to go, 165 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:23.799 but I was just trying. I can't remember what they were, 166 00:09:23.799 --> 00:09:26.159 but I thought it would be a voodoo mystery would 167 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:27.799 be a But. 168 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:32.720 One thing I wanted to say as well, I hope 169 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:34.399 that you enjoyed all the puns in the book. 170 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:40.919 Oh they're great, and it's yeah, I mind, you're you're 171 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:42.360 not as overt as I am. 172 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:46.279 But no, no, I'm sorry. I did my best. 173 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:48.360 Don't be, don't be. I think they're funnier when they 174 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:50.519 slip up on you. Wait a minute, we talked about 175 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:52.759 there's leadership, but how did the rituals? I mean, how 176 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:56.080 does one get qualified or become a part of a 177 00:09:56.159 --> 00:09:58.639 voodoo Did you just read a book or. 178 00:09:59.240 --> 00:10:03.159 Do you need to be trained or there's certainly the 179 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:05.759 opinion that there are different kinds of voodoo, that there's 180 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:08.639 a real or authentic voodoo and that's practiced by the 181 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:12.360 priests and priestesses, and that there are more amateur types. 182 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:14.519 But I think there are different types of voodoo. It's 183 00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:17.960 not necessarily that one is more pure and others are 184 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:21.600 more corrupt. I think they're just different. So if you 185 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:24.720 want to get involved, I mean, usually a priest or 186 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:29.039 a priestess, they believe that they're somehow touched by God 187 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:33.279 or contacted by the spirits, and that they're chosen in 188 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:36.080 some way to be involved in voodoo. But again, there 189 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:39.919 are lots of different types in this country, lots of 190 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:43.759 different rituals that are practiced too. Because there's no doctrine. 191 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:47.039 The main way that people practice voodoo is through ceremonies 192 00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:50.279 and through rituals. So that could be through spells which 193 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:54.039 are kind of like recipes. Maybe there's a famous honey 194 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:57.399 jar recipe where someone takes a jar with a candle 195 00:10:57.440 --> 00:10:59.639 in it and they add some kind of honey or 196 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:04.559 molass is something to sweeten that and just thereby metaphorically 197 00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:07.879 to sweeten the spirits. And of course if you go 198 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:10.120 to New Orleans and some of the tourist shops there, 199 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:13.960 you'll find things like amulets and talisman and gree gree 200 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:18.039 and mojo and so people who practice voodoo as well, 201 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:22.200 from priests and priestesses through to just followers. They might 202 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:24.799 have an altar as well, so you might see those 203 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:26.519 if you go to New Orleans, you go to one 204 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:27.600 of the museums there. 205 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:29.960 Yeah, you're just reminded me of the last time we 206 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:32.399 went to New Orleans. I went to a voodoo shop 207 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:35.799 and bought a little a good luck voodoo doll and 208 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:37.360 then on the bottom of it said it was me 209 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:40.080 in China. 210 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:44.759 Some of those are just really cheap trinkets and very tacky, 211 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:47.840 and I mean they're sell them right beside jumbalaire and 212 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:50.639 coffee with chicory. So I don't think it's meant to 213 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:52.600 be the real thing, even though you'll hear in hush 214 00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:56.120 tones there that maybe someone who works in a store 215 00:11:56.200 --> 00:11:58.759 can direct you to the real, authentic stuff if you've 216 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:00.559 got the money for it. It's all a bit of 217 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:04.440 a ripoff. But you know, with the altars that you'll 218 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:06.960 see there, and people have altars at home as well, 219 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:11.759 and so they might I'm just trying to think of 220 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:14.879 an example. They're usually used for things like spells, or 221 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:18.039 they might be used for devotion as well, for worship 222 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:21.919 to a particular spirit, And so they might have a 223 00:12:21.960 --> 00:12:25.000 table or some kind of surface that's covered maybe with velvet, 224 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:28.919 and might have sequins and ribbons and various things, and 225 00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:33.879 they'll include candles and statues of saints, Catholic saints, and 226 00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:37.919 maybe incense and voodoo dolls, and they'll have offerings, maybe 227 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:40.159 things like food, and I'm sure you saw in New 228 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:43.519 Orleans too, lots of cigarettes, yes, lots of money and 229 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:48.360 sometimes marijuana and other things too. Oh yeah, yeah, these 230 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:51.559 are all things to appeal to the spirits and to petition. 231 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:54.960 At least in the New Orleans style, it seems mostly 232 00:12:55.000 --> 00:12:59.639 about trying to get reality to go the way you 233 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:03.320 want it, like to intent, like to oh yeah, the 234 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:05.759 arts or romance. 235 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:09.240 Oh yeah. There's crossover with New Age spirituality as well. 236 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:13.360 A lot of it's about affirmations and intent, and there's 237 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:16.159 certainly a lot of spells which are intended for good 238 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:19.039 and folk medicine and blessings and stuff like that. There's 239 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:22.039 certainly a lot of bad as well. But getting back 240 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:26.159 to the rituals are also group ceremonies. They do the 241 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:30.039 standard stuff that other religions do, like weddings and funerals 242 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:34.759 and baptisms and healings. And you can also get married 243 00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:38.279 to spirits as well. Sometimes if you petition them for something, 244 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:41.679 they might ask as a favor that you married them, 245 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:44.159 and so it's kind of like a polygamy where you 246 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:46.399 can marry as many spirits as you like and still 247 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:48.159 have earthly partner as well. 248 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:50.600 It must be really disappointing when you find that neither 249 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:52.799 your wife nor your voodoo god will have sex with you. 250 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:01.320 Ah, I'm sure it happens. 251 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:03.919 Just you know, Papa Eggby, he's not that into me anymore. 252 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:06.919 I think he likes a bottle of ram and a 253 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:08.120 good cigar instead. 254 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:12.080 Right, he's old. He needs Papa legg By viagra. 255 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:16.080 So yeah, oh that's a good one. But they've all 256 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:18.159 got their favorite things, and so if you want something 257 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:20.919 from them, you have to give them that, whether it's 258 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:24.480 French pastries or whether it's jewelry. And if you don't 259 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:26.919 give them what they want, then they can cause all 260 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:29.440 kinds of harm and misfortune in your life. 261 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:33.960 I want to talk about zombies. Now. Obviously there's a 262 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:37.159 sort of pop culture shift that's happened in zombies since 263 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:40.799 George Romero's Not a Living Dead film happened. But before 264 00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:47.240 that film, zombies almost always meant a voodoo type zombie, 265 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:51.759 something raised by ritual or it is really unclear whether 266 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:54.080 they meant something, at least in pop culture, whether they 267 00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:56.240 meant something that was dead and brought back to life 268 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:58.639 or something that was living in kind of a half life. 269 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:00.720 But can we talk about that a little bit. 270 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:02.879 Well, yeah, I think one of the definitions of a zombie. 271 00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:06.799 I mean zombie is also a snake spirit in voodoo 272 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:12.480 spelt z's zombi, but zombie. There are different ideas of 273 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:16.440 what a zombie is. Usually it's a reanimated corpse. I 274 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:21.919 think the kind of stereotypical or prototypical zombie is a 275 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:25.759 person who is taken to the brink of death and 276 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:31.480 then they're reanimated somehow, so it can be a thing 277 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:35.559 of revenge. There's a great fear in Haiti of zombification, 278 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:39.840 so much so that it's actually illegal under the Haitian 279 00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:42.679 penal code. That's how much people believe in it to 280 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:46.240 this day. And so if someone dies in the family, 281 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:49.320 they might have someone who keeps guard over that body 282 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:53.080 for days to even weeks to make sure that and 283 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:55.559 one of these evil sorcerers known as a book or 284 00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:58.039 doesn't come by and steal the body and use that 285 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:01.639 body for either to bring that person back as a 286 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:05.039 zombie or to use that person's body parts in spells. 287 00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:08.759 Usually there's some kind of poison that is used for 288 00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:12.360 these real zombies, and again they'll be taken to this 289 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:15.759 point of near death and so much so that the 290 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:19.000 family will bury that person and they're in this kind 291 00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:22.440 of state where they're not quite dead, and then they're 292 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:26.240 revived by the sorcerer and then turned into a slave, 293 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:28.000 maybe to work on a plantation. 294 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:34.919 Yeah, that's a terrible thing to happen. Although in some 295 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:39.240 ways though, I mean, being a slave having your entire 296 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:42.559 life control by some slave master is not radically different 297 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:44.679 from being a zombie. I mean, except that maybe as 298 00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:48.480 a zombie you don't lament your situation as much. 299 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:51.919 Yeah, I think you don't quite have your personality is gone, 300 00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:54.159 so you're in this kind of half dead state. 301 00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:57.360 Yeah, there's a lot of In fact, in real life, 302 00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:01.879 there's a lot of sort of drug related ways where 303 00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:04.759 a person can pretty much end up being in a 304 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:07.960 slave like situation with addictions. 305 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:12.279 Yeah, absolutely, and these because these sorcerers don't use anything 306 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:17.279 like that. It's always about various potions and poisons. 307 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:20.000 So were there any real examples of zombies that came 308 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:20.359 up in. 309 00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:24.079 Your research, Ah, there are a number of examples of 310 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:29.680 real I've seen quoti fingers of zombification, and usually they've 311 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:33.039 been verified by family members. So this is a strong 312 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:35.319 belief of this in the country. Still to this day. 313 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:39.279 And there's a famous story that of Clavius Nassis. So 314 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.400 I'm not sure if you've heard of him, perfor. 315 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:44.440 I have, but maybe people in the listening audience have not. 316 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:47.920 It's probably the most famous case treated in The Serpent 317 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.200 and the Rainbow of a fellow who turned up on 318 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:54.839 his sister's doorstep in about nineteen eighty three, but he'd 319 00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:58.960 been dead twenty years already, and so his story is 320 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:02.119 that he fell ill one day and went to hospital, 321 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:04.960 and after a couple of days of spitting up blood 322 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:08.000 and vomiting, he was in a bad way. He died, 323 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:13.720 and so his family buried him, and then over time 324 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:18.119 mourned him and forgot about him. And then he allegedly 325 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:22.720 came back, and his story was that he hadn't actually died, 326 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:28.519 he'd gone into this state where he was neither alive 327 00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:31.519 nor dead, and then he was revived after he had 328 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:33.920 been buried, he was revived by one of these because 329 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:37.960 these sorcerers, who then set him to work in a 330 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:42.319 sugar plantation for a couple of years. And so this 331 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:46.160 was some kind of revenge act that had been brought 332 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:49.000 about by his brother, some kind of family grievance, and 333 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:53.160 so he did this to him. And so eventually this 334 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:56.279 master on the sugar plantation died and he wandered the 335 00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:58.880 country for about sixteen years, just waiting for his brother 336 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:02.000 to die. And when he did, he came back and 337 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:04.480 was reunited with his family and they were convinced that 338 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:07.440 this was him because he just knew so much about 339 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:13.640 the family history. And so there are actually other cases. 340 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:16.599 As a movie, I think it's called Impostor, and it's 341 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:19.039 a story of a I think maybe an orphan or 342 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:23.119 a criminal in another country who wants to come to 343 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:26.039 the United States. Did some research and found the story 344 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:29.279 of a boy who'd been murdered and basically assumed his 345 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:34.200 personality and came to this country and was just welcomed 346 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:37.160 with open arms by the family because they really wanted 347 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:40.720 to believe that their son had come back to them. 348 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:45.759 So there are a number of cases of zombification in Haiti, 349 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:49.839 and usually they turn out to be cases of mental 350 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:53.200 illness and mistaken identity. And there was one study which 351 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:56.559 was done and there were about three people who were 352 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:01.440 tested and it was found that there a disproved that 353 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:04.400 they were actually family members, but they had been welcomed 354 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:08.440 into the family. They didn't look as old as the 355 00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:11.920 people who died. They were clearly different people, but with 356 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:14.480 just such a strong belief in voodoo in the country, 357 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:16.640 they were just very willing to believe that these people 358 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:18.920 had come back. It's a very strange situation. 359 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:27.200 Yeah. Even now, Haiti has a really bad situation economically, technologically. 360 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:31.440 Oh yeah, the healthcare situation is really bad there. And 361 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:34.960 that's why voodoo and who do medicine is just so 362 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:37.400 popular in this country too. A lot of people who 363 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:39.759 practice voodoo here and there are may be about a 364 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:44.960 million practitioners. They will use orthodox medicine in conjunction with 365 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:46.200 folk medicine. 366 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:48.359 Right. I guess what I was getting at is it's 367 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:53.559 not I mean, it's easier to fake or get away 368 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:57.880 with a sort of a voodoo impersonation of a zombie there, 369 00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:01.799 because here you could relatively easily get a DNA test 370 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:04.759 and find out whether this person was really your return relative. 371 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:07.440 Oh yeah, and I think, as you were discussing popular 372 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:10.680 culture earlier, zombies in this country are different things. Since 373 00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:14.119 the Night of the Living Dead. There something that's caused 374 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:18.039 by a virus or a plague, and it's a contagious 375 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:21.920 condition rather than being a state of animation of being 376 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:23.640 a zombie. 377 00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:25.920 You may recall a long time ago we did an 378 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:29.400 interview with the author of a book called The Zombie Autopsies, 379 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:32.759 and he talked about how that if a zombie case 380 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:36.720 came into the hospital, people wouldn't assume it was a zombie. 381 00:21:36.759 --> 00:21:39.039 They would assume this person had a medical problem. They 382 00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:40.799 would be trying to treat them. And it's like, you know, 383 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:42.279 of course, which is the worst that you could do 384 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:46.680 with zombies? You know, Yeah, they're awfully biby, you. 385 00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:47.960 Know, yeah. 386 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:48.279 Yeah. 387 00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:51.400 And there was the CDC who used the whole idea 388 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:53.920 of the zombie apocalypse to try and explain to people 389 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:58.279 what they'd do in the situation of a crisis exactly. So, 390 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:00.839 have you seen The Serpent and the Rainbow or maybe 391 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:01.480 read the book. 392 00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:03.839 I read some of the book, I have seen the film. 393 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:05.960 I realized that the book's a lot more serious. 394 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:10.079 Yeah. That's ridden by an ethnobiologist by the name of 395 00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:13.880 Wade Davis, and so he went in search of the 396 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:18.480 poison that's used by these evil sorcerers, and so he, 397 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:21.519 I think, was led down a lot of paths where 398 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:24.680 people claimed to give him the real thing, and so 399 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:28.000 he was misled by some of these sorcerers, and then 400 00:22:28.119 --> 00:22:31.640 eventually he came across the real thing, and so that 401 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:36.559