Speaker 1: Folks.
Speaker 2: We are uncovering truth here Clay Travis and Buck Sexton
Speaker 2: today at noon, which will result in live.
Speaker 1: Tears like fifty five KRC Talkstation.
Speaker 2: Ato six if afty five KRC E talkstation ain't very
Speaker 2: Happy Monday to you, Brian Thomas about to be back
Speaker 2: to work. Did enjoy my time off? Happy new Year
Speaker 2: to all, and I'm so happy it's a new year
Speaker 2: and we're still doing money Monday with Brian James from
Speaker 2: Aulworth Financial. Welcome back, Brian, Happy new year to you.
Speaker 3: Happy new year, and happy first snow day of the year.
Speaker 3: And all the kids and some workers out.
Speaker 2: It's a hell of a snow day too, isn't it,
Speaker 2: Brian Lord Almond?
Speaker 1: This is a whopper. Have you seen this in a
Speaker 1: very long time.
Speaker 2: That really long time. I know we've got a couple
Speaker 2: of topics you provided and we're going to get to those.
Speaker 2: And I don't think I'm throwing you much of a
Speaker 2: curve ball, since you are a financial planner. But I
Speaker 2: had a couple of things I just wanted to bring up,
Speaker 2: and I was inspired by my own personal experience. I
Speaker 2: get my credit score, you know, I know what it is,
Speaker 2: and there was an article on the Wall Street Journal.
Speaker 2: I believe it was from yesterday, one man's attempt to
Speaker 2: get a perfect eight to fifty credit score, and rather
Speaker 2: interesting article. And I not bragging or anything, but there
Speaker 2: was a period of time where I did enjoy a
Speaker 2: perfect credit score for a while, and lo and behold,
Speaker 2: I launched the app to find my credit score and
Speaker 2: it dropped down by like, I don't know, twelve points
Speaker 2: or something. Nothing in my life had changed, nothing, All
Speaker 2: my bills are paid, you know, I got all these
Speaker 2: perfect everything's perfect, Everything's perfect. Then they suggestion on the
Speaker 2: I don't know if his equifacts or whatever it was,
Speaker 2: I don't have enough credit card accounts. In other words,
Speaker 2: they want me to have more available credit in spite
Speaker 2: of the fact that all my bills are paid and
Speaker 2: I've got enough available credit to cover my family's basic
Speaker 2: needs and probably another family down the streets basic needs.
Speaker 2: What the hell is with credit scores? And why don't
Speaker 2: they let people know? And they don't, as the article
Speaker 2: points out, they keep all this quiet. It's they said,
Speaker 2: the algorithms they assigned people are proprietary, so you don't
Speaker 2: even know. And so the article goes over all these
Speaker 2: different you know, you know the contortions this one guy
Speaker 2: went through in an effort to get an eight to
Speaker 2: fifty credit score, and it just it was out. It
Speaker 2: was insane what he went through to try to do it,
Speaker 2: and he ultimately was able to do it just by
Speaker 2: maintaining a certain like teeny weeny percentage of some kind
Speaker 2: of balance on his various credit cards. Does it really
Speaker 2: matter once you get over and you're in that higher level?
Speaker 2: Does it matter? Should have concern anybody? And do you
Speaker 2: know anything about credit scores and how they come up
Speaker 2: with them? Brian, I hate to put you on the spot,
Speaker 2: but this kind of irks me.
Speaker 1: No, not at all.
Speaker 3: And I've got clients who bring up these questions as well.
Speaker 3: Matter of fact, I have clients and there are frequent listeners.
Speaker 3: They may hear me say this, who had the same
Speaker 3: experience that you did and had that eight point fifty
Speaker 3: for that one brief shining moment, printed it out, brought
Speaker 3: it into me so we could celebrate, and then they
Speaker 3: framed it, hung it on the wall. So I think
Speaker 3: it shortly after that went went. But to answer your question,
Speaker 3: these are great questions, but at the same time, once
Speaker 3: you're over, really seven point fifty, You're not going to
Speaker 3: get anything more special than you know, for being over
Speaker 3: eight hundred or or you know, even up of that
Speaker 3: eight to fifty range, there really aren't there. There isn't
Speaker 3: a you know, a special green room for people with
Speaker 3: super high credit scores, So it doesn't matter that much
Speaker 3: once you're Once you're at that range, you can kind
Speaker 3: of get what you need. But yeah, so question for
Speaker 3: you though, did did they did you did they specify
Speaker 3: that they thought you should have more actual credit card
Speaker 3: accounts or do they think you should have more credit
Speaker 3: available meaning higher limits and lower balances?
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't see anything but the limits. They gave
Speaker 2: me a specific number. I think I have, I guess
Speaker 2: ten specific accounts that they were able to identify within
Speaker 2: this list of whatever is an approved account credit or otherwise,
Speaker 2: and then I should have more like fifteen to twenty
Speaker 2: or something. It's just I'm like this, this seems vast awkwards,
Speaker 2: if you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: Yes, and the algorithm that algorithm, like all algorithms, changes
Speaker 3: all the time because they're after whatever it is that
Speaker 3: they're after. But at the same time that the really
Speaker 3: the important things, you know, if you wanted that last
Speaker 3: marginal few points.
Speaker 2: To get you to the eight fifty.
Speaker 1: Then yeah, that's probably what you would need.
Speaker 3: And that algorithm that you're asking to tell you to
Speaker 3: give you advice on what else do I need is
Speaker 3: really reaching to the bottom of the barrel for the ideas.
Speaker 1: And that last bit is the number of accounts.
Speaker 2: It sounds like, yeah, apparently, so it just seems just
Speaker 2: so so stupid. If you don't need the additional credit,
Speaker 2: then why would you want it available? So I don't
Speaker 2: know anyhow, And along those lines, I just want to
Speaker 2: bring this up because in case people aren't aware in
Speaker 2: terms of credit, my wife just got I don't know,
Speaker 2: a col statement or something. We don't even shop there anymore,
Speaker 2: but it was an announcement that their interest rate is
Speaker 2: now north of thirty percent. Thirty and it was one
Speaker 2: of several cards, you know, it was some other small
Speaker 2: retail that we don't ever use. But I mean your
Speaker 2: thirty percent interest rate, Brian, that's insane.
Speaker 3: This is insane, and it tells you exactly who they're
Speaker 3: shooting for. They are truly, truly hoping that you will
Speaker 3: forget about it. Because remember the way a credit card works,
Speaker 3: it has a grace period too. So as soon as
Speaker 3: you swipe that card and you rack up a month's
Speaker 3: worth of expenses, you're gonna get your statement and then
Speaker 3: you've got usually twenty five maybe twenty eight days. It
Speaker 3: can waiver around there somewhere, but that's how much time
Speaker 3: you've got to get that paid off. What they're after,
Speaker 3: they're after the small percentage of people who are gonna
Speaker 3: forget to make that payment and pay that statement off.
Speaker 3: Most people do. Most people get their rewards and run away.
Speaker 3: And I know you and I both play that game. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but there are a handful of people out there who
Speaker 3: will not make that payment, and they'll go, I'll get
Speaker 3: it next year. And if you annualize the interest that
Speaker 3: you're paying on those accounts, you are simply paying an
Speaker 3: enormous amount of money for the privilege to owe a
Speaker 3: bank money.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, and again I only bring it up in case
Speaker 2: people are not paying a ten because apparently, I guess
Speaker 2: they can adjust these interest rates in any damn well
Speaker 2: time they please, or maybe they have to do at
Speaker 2: the beginning of the calendar year. I don't know what
Speaker 2: the rules are that apply to these credit card company
Speaker 2: are credit cards, but man't pay close attention, because I mean,
Speaker 2: let's face it, if you could find a credit card
Speaker 2: that only charges twenty percent versus one that charges thirty,
Speaker 2: you know which one you should be using if you're not,
Speaker 2: if you're going to carry a balance. But it's still
Speaker 2: it's like the word usery comes to mind.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and and well i'd also add based on that
Speaker 3: thought process, And I know you don't really think this way,
Speaker 3: but if you're really looking at the interest rate, if
Speaker 3: you're comparing the interest rate across credit cards, then you're
Speaker 3: probably using credit cards incorrectly. If you've got a situation
Speaker 3: where you've got a balance on one of them, then
Speaker 3: you need to be looking for a balance transfer opportunity.
Speaker 3: Sometimes those are zero percent for twelve to eighteen months
Speaker 3: something like that. But if you've got a significant balance,
Speaker 3: I would say that twenty percent is truly no better
Speaker 3: than thirty percent.
Speaker 1: It's all way too high.
Speaker 2: It is way too high.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's.
Speaker 2: I'm tempted to take an early break, Joe. Can we
Speaker 2: take an early break because we can go to the
Speaker 2: two topics afterwards, or you want to just dive into
Speaker 2: part of the first one, or how do you want
Speaker 2: to work it? Okay, Brian, We're gonna take an early break,
Speaker 2: a couple minutes early because I don't want to start
Speaker 2: either one of the topics we have remaining, because I'm
Speaker 2: afraid we'll not have enough time in the segment to
Speaker 2: do it. So let's pause it. We'll bring Brian James
Speaker 2: back to talk a super sized limit for four to
Speaker 2: one k's and Trump's proposed tariffs could cost some US
Speaker 2: companies those two subjects next. It's eight thirteen right now,
Speaker 2: fifty five K see the talk station. I'll be right
Speaker 2: back fifty five the talk station. Jud just said it's bad.
Speaker 2: Don't get on the roads. You can avoid it. Brian James.
Speaker 1: Money.
Speaker 2: Money is Brian James from Allworth Mancher. We're talking well finances,
Speaker 2: and I want to do the second one first. This
Speaker 2: I am more confused having read the new four to
Speaker 2: oh one K rules after the USA Today article I
Speaker 2: just finished reading than I was when I started reading.
Speaker 1: It.
Speaker 2: Is the average human being supposed to understand how much
Speaker 2: money they can contribute to a four to one K
Speaker 2: given all the different breakdowns and subcategories and categories we
Speaker 2: have here in terms of you know, annual four oh
Speaker 2: one K savings and catch up contributions. I mean, this
Speaker 2: is baffling, but the number I'm reading here, can someone
Speaker 2: in any of these age groups that apply save up
Speaker 2: to thirty four thousand, seven hundred and fifty dollars for
Speaker 2: retirement next year in a four oh one K, then
Speaker 2: well that would be this year. The answer is yes, yes,
Speaker 2: apparently right. So honestly, this is all all the confusion, Brian,
Speaker 2: is job security for me? If the Irs ever made
Speaker 2: things simple, or if Congress ever, you know, kind of
Speaker 2: tried to work a little harder to make things put
Speaker 2: things in English, then I don't.
Speaker 1: Have a job.
Speaker 3: So let's go over where we were so we can
Speaker 3: talk about what the changes are. Twenty twenty four, if
Speaker 3: you had a four oh one K, then you were.
Speaker 3: Everybody under the sun who had a four to oh
Speaker 3: one K could put in twenty three thousand dollars. Whether
Speaker 3: that's wroth or traditional four oh one K didn't matter.
Speaker 3: It didn't matter what your age is. The limit for
Speaker 3: everybody was twenty three thousand. If you were over fifty.
Speaker 3: We've had something called the catchup that's been around for
Speaker 3: a long time. That was an additional seventy five hundred.
Speaker 3: So in twenty twenty four, somebody fifty plus could put
Speaker 3: away thirty thousand, five hundred dollars new for this year
Speaker 3: is a super ketchup contribution.
Speaker 1: Another flavor for everybody to remember.
Speaker 3: If you are age sixty to sixty three, instead of
Speaker 3: seventy five hundred, you get to put in the thirty
Speaker 3: four thousand and seven to fifty. So now you're at
Speaker 3: the twenty three for everybody twenty three and a half.
Speaker 3: That is actually the standard limit went up by five
Speaker 3: hundred bucks to twenty three thousand, five hundred. Those over
Speaker 3: sixty but under sixty three or under sixty four rather
Speaker 3: are allowed an additional eleven two point fifty. That's a
Speaker 3: total of thirty four to seven fifty. If you're sixty
Speaker 3: four or turning sixty four this year, you don't get it.
Speaker 3: So this is the other confusing part. What old ketchup
Speaker 3: job security again, Brian, job security for me? Right, let's
Speaker 3: talk about what's important here.
Speaker 1: So what I.
Speaker 2: Mean, the older you get, the more life it is
Speaker 2: you should be able to get it. I mean usually
Speaker 2: your highest income earning years are older. So why would
Speaker 2: someone who's sixty five and still gainful employed and not
Speaker 2: be able to chuck board a four oh one. K.
Speaker 2: If that's what they want to do, you.
Speaker 3: Would have to ask your friendly neighborhood actuary as to
Speaker 3: why this was a good idea. So what you've just
Speaker 3: pointed out is the Ketchup contribution applies two different times
Speaker 3: in your life. Currently, it applies from ages fifty to
Speaker 3: fifty nine, and then from sixty to sixty three you
Speaker 3: have the super Ketchup. And then currently, from when you
Speaker 3: become sixty four and older, you go back to the
Speaker 3: old Ketchup super Ketchup. Does that understand? Does that help
Speaker 3: you understand that?
Speaker 2: I mean, I do have an understanding of it. It
Speaker 2: just doesn't make any sense when you practically talk about
Speaker 2: it in real life. You know, terms like wait a second,
Speaker 2: how come it's you know, up to sixty four and
Speaker 2: that shuts off after age sixty four. Someone explained that
Speaker 2: to me, and I know you're not going to be
Speaker 2: capable of or in a position to do that, but
Speaker 2: super Ketchup. That sounds like the thing you buy at Costco,
Speaker 2: the giant size, as opposed to the regular.
Speaker 1: The generic version of the Ketchup. Yep.
Speaker 2: Well, and the other thing is now this will apply
Speaker 2: to me, since I am fifty nine. I turned sixty
Speaker 2: in September. I still qualify for this age sixty through
Speaker 2: sixty three super ketchup because I turned sixty in the
Speaker 2: calendar year.
Speaker 1: That is correct. But you will you will be sixty
Speaker 1: by twelve thirty one.
Speaker 3: Therefore this is a super ketchup year, not the regular
Speaker 3: ketchup for you, the good kind.
Speaker 2: Okay. And I know there's a WROTH provision in here too,
Speaker 2: but roths are only available to people within certain income levels.
Speaker 1: Correct, that's correct. Yeah, so that's kind of correct. Here's
Speaker 1: another fun thing too.
Speaker 3: So, yes, there is an income limitation on ROTH contributions,
Speaker 3: and that's in the range for the perry, depending on
Speaker 3: how you know, whether you're married, whether you're single, so forth.
Speaker 3: It's in the range of say two hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 3: something like that. But the fun thing there is that
Speaker 3: you can do what's called a backdoor WROTH conversion because
Speaker 3: there are no income limitations on converting traditional or pre
Speaker 3: tax assets from a pretax IRA to a WROTH. So
Speaker 3: the trick there is you make a non deductible traditional
Speaker 3: IRA contribution. This is not new, This is an old thing,
Speaker 3: been around for a while make a non deductible traditional
Speaker 3: IRA contribution and then immediately convert that, and then you
Speaker 3: wind up with the exact same result. So if you may,
Speaker 3: if you're married, you make over two hundred one thousand dollars,
Speaker 3: then you are not able to make a roth IRA contribution. However,
Speaker 3: you can make a pre tax non deductible contribution and
Speaker 3: then convert that and get the exact same outcome. And
Speaker 3: what's really crazy about this, Brian, this was this started
Speaker 3: off as a loophole, but eventually the IRS said, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know what, you guys, this is fine, go ahead
Speaker 3: and keep doing it. So rather than just removing the
Speaker 3: income limitation on a WROTH contribution, they've simply said that
Speaker 3: if you file a couple more pieces of paper on
Speaker 3: your IRA, you can get the same end result.
Speaker 2: God, that is so insane. And you know you call
Speaker 2: it a loophole. If it's written that way, I don't
Speaker 2: consider the loophole. I mean I consider that the intended
Speaker 2: consequence of any legislation that comes down the pike, because
Speaker 2: they wrote it that way the extent they didn't consider
Speaker 2: something one way or another. It's not you know, it's
Speaker 2: not illegal or anything, but it's just something that's built
Speaker 2: into the tax provisions or in this particular case, ira
Speaker 2: A provisions.
Speaker 3: Ryan just anyway, why on Monday morning it is all
Speaker 3: of this out for the listening public.
Speaker 2: It is well, talk to your financial planner. To the
Speaker 2: extent you don't have one, I recommend getting one. Anyhow,
Speaker 2: Trump's proposed tariffs. I have heard and read so much
Speaker 2: about Trump's proposed tariffs. I mean, he every other day
Speaker 2: he comes out with another tariff he's proposing. I think,
Speaker 2: you know it. It seems to be getting some traction
Speaker 2: in terms of global affairs. I know the Mexico's president
Speaker 2: now plans on working with the Trump administration in terms
Speaker 2: of taking back some of the illegal immigrants he wants
Speaker 2: to send over, certainly in part because of threats of tariffs.
Speaker 2: And I see Trudeau's getting ready to resign in Canada,
Speaker 2: and one of the concerns they have in Canada is
Speaker 2: tariffs on Canadian goods. But this transcends that, and we're
Speaker 2: talking Chinese goods primarily. China is obviously a difficult competitor globally.
Speaker 2: They don't have any OSHA rules, they have slave labor,
Speaker 2: they don't have minimum wage, so it's a lot more
Speaker 2: difficult to compete with the Chinese companies, So at least conceptually,
Speaker 2: I understand wanting to perhaps tariff Chinese products, which we've
Speaker 2: all gotten used to because they are so inexpensive compared
Speaker 2: to anything that we make here. What's your take on this,
Speaker 2: because some people are all in favor of this for
Speaker 2: some of the reasons I mentioned, and some people think
Speaker 2: it's going to ruin the economy. Do you have any
Speaker 2: personal thoughts on this or anything.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, in terms of the impact here, it's
Speaker 3: really kind of the same discussion as when I'm doing
Speaker 3: a financial plan for somebody. What are your priorities, right,
Speaker 3: what's the most important thing to you? And what I
Speaker 3: mean by that is if you are someone who says,
Speaker 3: you know what, the United States has just got to
Speaker 3: get more competitive because twenty thirty years from now we're
Speaker 3: not going to be able to be at the same
Speaker 3: level that we currently are, then you might say that
Speaker 3: it's worth laying tariffs against especially China, for the reasons
Speaker 3: you just mentioned. It's a lot easier for China to
Speaker 3: produce goods more cheaply than it is here because of
Speaker 3: all the rules we have. However, if you're somebody who says,
Speaker 3: you know what, inflation is the thing, that's the thing
Speaker 3: we've got to focus on, then you're not going to
Speaker 3: be in favor of these things because there's no way
Speaker 3: to have our cake and eat it too. We can't
Speaker 3: reduce we can't attack China with tariffs without having any
Speaker 3: kind of inflationary impact, and heaven knows, we've seen plenty
Speaker 3: of it in the last few years. So it really
Speaker 3: just depends on what you feel is the most important,
Speaker 3: what's the best for your situation. If you are a
Speaker 3: small business owner who imports goods, who imports natural resources
Speaker 3: and things from China that you need, you're probably not
Speaker 3: real excited about these tariffs. Right.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, you.
Speaker 3: Know, you might be if you're a company that competes
Speaker 3: directly with China, then you might feel a little bit differently.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just the whole idea. It's an artificial tinkering
Speaker 2: with the market. But it's brought about because we have well,
Speaker 2: I guess, pretty healthy trade relations with China. For example,
Speaker 2: We've gotten used to it. I mean I always just
Speaker 2: kind of wonder, I mean, had we treated China the
Speaker 2: way we treated the Soviet Union, We wouldn't be having
Speaker 2: this discussion because we wouldn't be trading with them, period.
Speaker 2: End of story. Yeah, I read this article this morning,
Speaker 2: our National security advisor telling us that China could basically
Speaker 2: just flip the switch and shut down our entire electric
Speaker 2: grid given how much it's infected our our infrastructure with
Speaker 2: software and things like that. That is an enemy of ours.
Speaker 2: So if we just quit trading with them, period. And
Speaker 2: I understand the the practical effect of just shutting off
Speaker 2: that light swhich is impossibility. But I mean, we have
Speaker 2: to contend with them on some way, but we've just
Speaker 2: gotten I think fat and happy on cheap Chinese made stuff.
Speaker 3: I think you're exactly right, and I use the term
Speaker 3: on these airwaves pretty frequently that we're the United States
Speaker 3: a profit margin. The one thing for how, whether we've
Speaker 3: actively decided this or just passively by not objecting to it,
Speaker 3: the one thing we will not touch is the ability
Speaker 3: of our publicly traded companies to make money because that's
Speaker 3: how we all get richer. I'm not saying that's good, bad,
Speaker 3: or indifferent. I'm just saying that's the decision that we've made.
Speaker 3: That's why it was not hard at all. To cut
Speaker 3: off Russia because they were never a huge trading partner,
Speaker 3: and Russia never made the moves that China has to
Speaker 3: become a major player on the kind of overall world
Speaker 3: economic stage. They don't make plastic garbage that they can
Speaker 3: sell for nothing and undercut everybody else. China does. So therefore,
Speaker 3: you know, look at the things you're buying on Amazon.
Speaker 3: If you're looking for a phone charger, how many of
Speaker 3: those you think you're actually made in the United States.
Speaker 3: The ones that are made the United States are probably
Speaker 3: four or five times more expensive, probably maybe a little
Speaker 3: better quality. That's a different topic. But if you're simply
Speaker 3: going for cheap, cheap, cheap, that's China. That's what they've
Speaker 3: been doing for one hundred years when they figured out
Speaker 3: that that's a way to get under the skin of
Speaker 3: the United States, and we're addicted to it. You know,
Speaker 3: if you've been bringing in cheap product and cheap components
Speaker 3: for whatever it is that you build, and it's going
Speaker 3: to be real hard to give that up.
Speaker 2: Well, it certainly is. And I'm just wondering, are these
Speaker 2: tariffs going to apply to all the like for example,
Speaker 2: rare earth minerals that are brought into this country through
Speaker 2: China to build electric vehicles, or to wherever that happened.
Speaker 2: The electric vehicles have to be built, we don't have
Speaker 2: our own because our own environmental laws won't allow us
Speaker 2: to extract them, even though it's right there in front
Speaker 2: of our faces. So I don't know, I'm just confused
Speaker 2: by the whole thing. But the geopolitical the realities of
Speaker 2: the world have changed dramatically since Nixon normalized trade relations
Speaker 2: with China. They weren't a sworn enemy back then. They were,
Speaker 2: you know, a second world at best country, And clearly
Speaker 2: they've moved ahead in advanced significantly and seek to compete
Speaker 2: with America on a globe on you know, directly on
Speaker 2: a global scale, and pretty successful at doing it because
Speaker 2: they don't have any regulations.
Speaker 1: Hmm yeah, go figure.
Speaker 3: So if you think about it, it's almost a kind
Speaker 3: of a perfect capitalist story.
Speaker 1: They found a.
Speaker 3: Need that that is out there and people were willing
Speaker 3: to throw money at it. Happens to be here in
Speaker 3: this country, which where where our goal is profit margin.
Speaker 1: That's our number one goal.
Speaker 3: So if they're the cheapest offering of whatever resources we need,
Speaker 3: it's going to be real hard to go against that
Speaker 3: number one goal and say that you know we're going
Speaker 3: to sacrifice these other things.
Speaker 2: Well, we always care about morality and how people are
Speaker 2: treated and you know, suffering, and of course the Chinese
Speaker 2: people suffer mightily for lack of a lot of the
Speaker 2: regulatory struct infrastructure we have here. So maybe there's a
Speaker 2: moral argument that can be made for us paying more
Speaker 2: for Chinese products. Don't know, Brian James, always a distinct
Speaker 2: pleasure to have you on the program on Mondays. I
Speaker 2: appreciate this segment. I'll look forward to next Monday for
Speaker 2: another edition of Money Monday. And be careful out there,
Speaker 2: my friend.
Speaker 1: Happy New Year and who day anyway.
Speaker 2: Right, that's the first time that came up this morning.
Speaker 2: Thanks Brian, eight twenty eight. Right now, if you have
Speaker 2: care se de talk stations, stick around. We've got care
Speaker 2: se Cares coming up Todd Sledge and since Ata is
Speaker 2: going to go over some topics with us at eight forty,
Speaker 2: I'll be right back fifty five k RC dot com.
Speaker 2: The Simply Money Minute is sponsored by Emory fed