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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the deep dive. You are listener, and today

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<v Speaker 1>we're thinking specifically about the learner you've given us your sources.

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<v Speaker 1>Our job simple, we extract the key knowledge you need fast.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Think of it as your shortcut getting you up

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<v Speaker 2>the speed without drowning you in info exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>And today we're plunging into a really common but often

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<v Speaker 1>tricky shift in the tech world.

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<v Speaker 2>Right moving from software engineer you know, an individual contributor

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<v Speaker 2>or IC, to becoming an engineering manager and EM.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep. So, whether you're maybe thinking about this move or

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<v Speaker 1>just curious what it actually involves, or you're already in

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<v Speaker 1>the thick of it, we're going to try and break

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<v Speaker 1>it down.

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<v Speaker 2>And our guide for this is the book Think Like

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<v Speaker 2>a Software Engineering Manager dot pdf.

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<v Speaker 1>Our aim here isn't just to like read the book

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<v Speaker 1>to you, Oh definitely not.

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<v Speaker 2>We want to really get into the EM role itself,

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<v Speaker 2>the subtleties of that IC to EM jump clear up

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<v Speaker 2>some you know, common myths.

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<v Speaker 1>And highlight those key skills you need to build. We're

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<v Speaker 1>hoping for some a ha moments.

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<v Speaker 2>For you, Yeah, moments that just make the whole thing clearer.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's jump right in one of The first things

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<v Speaker 1>that really stood out for me in the book is

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<v Speaker 1>that it feels very authentic, like it comes from someone

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<v Speaker 1>who's actually done this.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh. Absolutely. The author kicks off talking about their own

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<v Speaker 2>struggles finding good resources when they made that leap from

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<v Speaker 2>senior engineer to EM.

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<v Speaker 1>Which is so relatable I think totally.

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<v Speaker 2>It grounds the whole thing. This isn't just theory, right,

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<v Speaker 2>It's built on their own journey, the obstacles they hit,

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<v Speaker 2>how they worked through them.

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<v Speaker 1>And they emphasize that it's packed with real workplace stories,

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<v Speaker 1>actual examples.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And for structure, the book sorts things into three

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<v Speaker 2>main pillars for an EM, people, projects, and products, and

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<v Speaker 2>the process is holding it all together.

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<v Speaker 1>That sounds like a really practical way to frame it,

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<v Speaker 1>based on actual experience. It is.

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<v Speaker 2>So let's get down to basics. What is an engineering

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<v Speaker 2>manager according to the book, Well, it.

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<v Speaker 1>Offers a pretty clear definition. Basically, someone who manages other engineers,

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<v Speaker 1>could be direct reports or even managing other managers.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, and it points out that in really early stage

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<v Speaker 2>startups you might not even have a specific EM role.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh interesting, So who does that job? Then?

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<v Speaker 2>Often it's the CTO, the chief technology officer. They kind

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<v Speaker 2>of wear the em hat initially handling both the tech

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<v Speaker 2>vision and the people side. Huh.

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<v Speaker 1>That really shows you, doesn't it. Even in a tiny team,

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<v Speaker 1>those leadership functions are essential.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, which brings us to a really key distinction. The

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<v Speaker 2>book makes the difference between management and leadership.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, this is important. The author argues that whatever

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<v Speaker 1>your title em engineering lead, the real focus ought to

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<v Speaker 1>be on engineering leadership. What's the nuance there?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the interesting part is the idea that you can

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely be a leader without being a manager, and maybe

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<v Speaker 2>more surprisingly, you can be a manager without truly leading.

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<v Speaker 2>But the best ems they manage and they lead, They

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<v Speaker 2>blend both. It's not just about doling out tasks. It's

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<v Speaker 2>about setting direction, inspiring people, fostering growth.

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<v Speaker 1>That makes a lot of sense. It's about enabling the team,

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<v Speaker 1>not just directing them. And a massive part of that,

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<v Speaker 1>the book stresses, is genuinely caring for the people.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh hugely. The book lists out so many responsibilities tied

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<v Speaker 2>to that, having meaningful one on ones, talking about careers,

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<v Speaker 2>doing fair performance.

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<v Speaker 1>Reviews, navigating uncertainty, giving emotional support.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes team building, really listening, being fair, thinking about diversity

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<v Speaker 2>and inclusion, giving constructive feedback. It's a lot. It really

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<v Speaker 2>highlights the human side of the role.

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<v Speaker 1>It really does. It shifts the focus, doesn't it, from

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<v Speaker 1>just technical output to cultivating a healthy, productive team.

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<v Speaker 2>And to show the impact, the book uses these two examples,

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<v Speaker 2>Alice and Bob.

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<v Speaker 1>Ah Yes, the contrasting managers tell us about them, okay.

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<v Speaker 2>So Alice is shown as an em who sets a

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<v Speaker 2>clear vision right, she guides her team effectively towards success. Bob,

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<v Speaker 2>though he's very hands off lessay fair leaves him to

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<v Speaker 2>it me much and the result, Bob's team starts to drift.

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<v Speaker 2>They lose sight of the bigger picture how their work

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<v Speaker 2>fits in.

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<v Speaker 1>So Alice provides that direction and motivation that Bob's team

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<v Speaker 1>is missing. But the book also says Alice wasn't perfect either. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>even with a vision the way she led head.

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<v Speaker 2>Issues precisely, Alice had direction, Yeah, but her approach was

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<v Speaker 2>quite rigid. She wasn't really open to feedback, didn't create

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<v Speaker 2>an environment where people felt safe to speak up.

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<v Speaker 1>That sounds stifling.

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<v Speaker 2>It was. It dampened creativity and her inflexibility, like demanding

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<v Speaker 2>everyone be in the office on certain days no matter what.

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<v Speaker 2>That hurt morale and trust.

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<v Speaker 1>So leadership isn't just what you achieve, but how you

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<v Speaker 1>get there. It needs that psychological safety, that autonomy.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and the book then gets into different leadership styles

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<v Speaker 2>like transactional and transformational. Can you break those down?

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<v Speaker 1>Sure? Transactional is more about rewards and punishments, right, very

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<v Speaker 1>goal focused, maybe involves closer monitoring.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes boring on micromanagement. Yeah, and often morale can suffer.

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<v Speaker 1>Right. Then transformational is more about the big vision inspiration,

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<v Speaker 1>company goals first, strategic.

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<v Speaker 2>Bold, but the potential downside there is maybe missing the

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<v Speaker 2>details the day to day needs of the team.

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<v Speaker 1>So one's very much about the now and external drivers,

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<v Speaker 1>the others about the future and internal motivation. It seems

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<v Speaker 1>like neither extreme is perfect.

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<v Speaker 2>And the book agrees. It really stresses that the best

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<v Speaker 2>leadership is situational. You adapt based on the person, the team,

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<v Speaker 2>the company.

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<v Speaker 1>Context, hybrid approach usually.

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<v Speaker 2>Generally Yeah, drawing bits from different styles works best. The

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<v Speaker 2>book even gives an example of book a team having

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<v Speaker 2>to quickly change its style because a competitor dropped a

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<v Speaker 2>big new feature. Shows you need to be adaptable, right.

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<v Speaker 1>It then quickly covers a few others Autocratic democratic, delegative,

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<v Speaker 1>servant leadership, highlighting the pros and cons of each, but

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<v Speaker 1>always coming back to that idea of a flexible hybrid style.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like autocratic might be needed in a real crisis.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, fast decisions, but.

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<v Speaker 1>Use it all the time. Terrible for morale kills initiative exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>People need to feel heard.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's switch gears slightly. Let's talk about how people

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<v Speaker 1>see this move from IC to EM. The book tackles

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<v Speaker 1>that idea that it's always a step up of.

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<v Speaker 2>Promotion, and it makes a really crucial point. It's better

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<v Speaker 2>to think of it as a lateral career move. It

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<v Speaker 2>requires a totally different set of skills.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not necessarily better than being in IC.

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<v Speaker 2>Just yeah, different exactly, And reframing it like that is

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<v Speaker 2>so important, isn't it. It helps manage expectations for you,

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<v Speaker 2>for your team.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Absolutely. The book also adds reassuringly, I think that

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<v Speaker 1>these career changes aren't like a one way street. You

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<v Speaker 1>can always learn, always adjust.

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<v Speaker 2>Your path, which is good to remember. Now, a question

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<v Speaker 2>that always comes up, should an EM still code? Ah?

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<v Speaker 1>The coding question. What's the book's stance, Well.

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<v Speaker 2>It's nuanced. It says, Look, it's possible to code as

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<v Speaker 2>an EM, but it strongly advises focusing on the EM

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<v Speaker 2>skills firsts. Trying to do both well often leads to

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<v Speaker 2>burnout and you might end up doing neither job effectively.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so hang up the keyboard entirely.

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<v Speaker 2>Not necessarily, The book says, staying connected to the tech

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<v Speaker 2>is really valuable, things like code reviews, design discussions, being

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<v Speaker 2>in the agile ceremonies.

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<v Speaker 1>That makes sense. It keeps you grounded in what the

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<v Speaker 1>team's actually doing, helps with mentoring, builds credibility right.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's just other ways too, like hackathon's or writing

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<v Speaker 2>some automation scripts for your own reports, things that keep

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<v Speaker 2>you technical but don't put you on the clinical path

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<v Speaker 2>for features.

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<v Speaker 1>So you're not becoming a bottleneck exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And hey, coding for fun once you're settled in the role,

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<v Speaker 2>totally fine.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a balanced view. Stay connected, but let the team

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<v Speaker 1>own the codebase precisely.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, let's hit another big misconception the rock star engineer.

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<v Speaker 1>Myth ah Yeah, the idea that your best coder will

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<v Speaker 1>automatically be your best manager. The book pushes back on

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<v Speaker 1>that right hard.

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<v Speaker 2>It states very clearly being a brilliant engineer does not

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<v Speaker 2>automatic mean you have the people skills to be a great.

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<v Speaker 1>Em Technical skills are important, maybe a prerequisite for.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, you need that foundation. Yeah, but empathy, communication, delegation, handling, conflict.

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<v Speaker 2>Those are different muscles. Some you might have, many you

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<v Speaker 2>need to build.

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<v Speaker 1>And the risk if you ignore that you could.

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<v Speaker 2>Lose a fantastic ICEE and gain a pretty mediocre manager

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<v Speaker 2>who struggles to support their team. The book warns against that.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't sacrifice great engineers for subparer management.

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<v Speaker 1>It really hammers home that these are separate tracks needing

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<v Speaker 1>different talent. Okay, so how do you actually make the transition?

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<v Speaker 1>The book talks about phases, starting before you're officially an em.

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<v Speaker 2>Right this phase I, it's all about being proactive, having

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<v Speaker 2>that growth mindset, and step one align with your manager.

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<v Speaker 1>Talk to them. Why is that so crucial upfront because it.

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<v Speaker 2>Sets the foundation for everything. You need to state your

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<v Speaker 2>interests clearly, talk about expectations, get their support.

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<v Speaker 1>Makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>The book suggests maybe creating a thirty sixty to ninety

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<v Speaker 2>day plan. Think of it like a learning period, a

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<v Speaker 2>trial run, almost.

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<v Speaker 1>A chance for you both to see if it's the

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<v Speaker 1>right fit.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, and it's a perfect time to spot your own

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<v Speaker 2>skill gaps maybe communication, maybe delegation, and start working on them.

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<v Speaker 2>The author even shares a story about timing their own

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<v Speaker 2>move and talking about it early.

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<v Speaker 1>What about that idea of considering the worst case scenario,

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<v Speaker 1>like what if your manager says no?

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<v Speaker 2>Thinking that through helps you plan strategically anyway. It forces

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<v Speaker 2>you to understand their perspective, maybe look at other paths.

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<v Speaker 2>It's valuable planning.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, And the book also says start taking on leadership

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<v Speaker 1>tasks now right gradually?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, definitely start small, mentor and intern, maybe lead a

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<v Speaker 2>small part of a project, be an onboarding buddy.

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<v Speaker 1>Get a feel for the people's stuff exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>See if you actually enjoy growing others, and look for

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<v Speaker 2>projects that involve working across teams, dealing with different stakeholders.

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<v Speaker 2>Practice those communication skills.

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<v Speaker 1>Another tip for this pre em phase document your achievements,

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<v Speaker 1>but specifically against management expectations. Why do that now?

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<v Speaker 2>It builds your case. It's concrete proof you're developing leadership skills,

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<v Speaker 2>especially if your company's career guide for managers isn't super clear,

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<v Speaker 2>so you.

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<v Speaker 1>Can say, look, I've already been doing X Y, and Z,

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<v Speaker 1>which aligned with the EM role precisely.

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<v Speaker 2>It tracks your progress and shows you're ready.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you've done the prep work. Now the actual

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<v Speaker 1>move into the EM role. The book mentions different ways

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<v Speaker 1>as can happen.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. It outlines three main scenarios. First, joining a new company.

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<v Speaker 1>As an EM that sounds tough.

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<v Speaker 2>The book suggests it is probably the riskiest new company,

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<v Speaker 2>new team, new role all at once, may be best

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<v Speaker 2>to avoid for your first EM gig if possible.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, scenario too.

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<v Speaker 2>Transitioning within your current team where you used to be

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<v Speaker 2>an IC peer.

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<v Speaker 1>Ooh, tricky dynamics.

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<v Speaker 2>There can be very delicate. Yeah, you need patients. You

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<v Speaker 2>need to actively build trust in your new capacity, manage perceptions,

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<v Speaker 2>avoid any hint of bias or favoritism, maybe even deal

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<v Speaker 2>with some resentment.

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<v Speaker 1>How do you handle that?

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<v Speaker 2>The book implies things like being really clear on expectations,

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<v Speaker 2>seeking feedback constantly consciously building those new manager report relationships.

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<v Speaker 1>Got it. And the third scenario.

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<v Speaker 2>Moving to manage a different team within the same company.

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<v Speaker 1>That sounds potentially easier.

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<v Speaker 2>The book suggests it often is you already know the

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<v Speaker 2>company culture, the processes. That gives you a head start.

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<v Speaker 2>Even with a new team.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So whichever way you transition, the book stresses reflection afterwards,

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<v Speaker 1>a retrospective.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, looking back after that initial period, ask yourself things

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<v Speaker 2>like what parts were frustrating? What was satisfying?

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<v Speaker 1>Do I still feel more connected to the code? Or

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<v Speaker 1>am I enjoying enabling people?

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<v Speaker 2>Am I finding joy in my team's success? How do

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<v Speaker 2>my former peers see me now? Am I actually helping

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<v Speaker 2>this team? Really honest questions?

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<v Speaker 1>And how do you measure success beyond just you know

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<v Speaker 1>how you feel?

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<v Speaker 2>The book gives both subjective and objective measures. Subjective your

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<v Speaker 2>comfort level, are you challenged but fulfilled? Do you have

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<v Speaker 2>a clear mission? And objective things like are you multiplying

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<v Speaker 2>the team's impact? Are projects getting delivered successfully? What's the

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<v Speaker 2>feedback from others? Team velocity and attrition rate? Are people staying?

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<v Speaker 1>The goal isn't just to survive the transition.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it's to thrive, And the book adds remember to

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<v Speaker 2>actually celebrate making this big career change.

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<v Speaker 1>Good point. So once you're settling in the book talks

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<v Speaker 1>about identifying your management style. Why is that an ongoing thing?

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<v Speaker 2>Because who you thought you'd be as a manager might

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<v Speaker 2>be different from reality after you've shadowed, been mentored, actually

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<v Speaker 2>done the job for a bit. That's a golden opportunity

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<v Speaker 2>for self assessment.

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<v Speaker 1>So revisit those styles Autocratic, democratic, servant, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, see which ones feel most natural. Now, maybe you

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<v Speaker 2>thought you were democratic, but you're actually leaning more towards coaching.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's okay if it's not just one style.

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<v Speaker 2>Totally identify one or two as a starting point. But

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<v Speaker 2>the key is flexibility, adapt as you learn as the

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<v Speaker 2>team needs change. Constant learning is the name of the

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<v Speaker 2>game for managers.

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<v Speaker 1>It sounds like it's a continuous journey of refinement.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely no fixed endpoint. You're always learning, always adapting.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So, as we wrap up this part of our

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<v Speaker 1>deep dive on moving from IC to EM, what are

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<v Speaker 1>the absolute core takeaways for the learner?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the book's summary really hits the nail on the head.

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<v Speaker 1>First.

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<v Speaker 2>IC and EM are different jobs, different skills.

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<v Speaker 1>Remember that separate tracks.

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<v Speaker 2>Know the definitions, and remember IC to EM isn't automatically

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<v Speaker 2>a promotion, it's a lateral move.

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<v Speaker 1>EMS can stay close to the code, just maybe not

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<v Speaker 1>by writing a day to day exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Technical skill is still important, but it's not enough on

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<v Speaker 2>its own, and the big.

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<v Speaker 1>One, Great engineers don't automatically make great managers. You need

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<v Speaker 1>those people skills summinate some learned.

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<v Speaker 2>So bottom line from this chapter really evaluate your own skills,

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<v Speaker 2>your own motivations. Is this EM path truly the right

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<v Speaker 2>fit for you.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a fantastic summary of a really dense and useful chapter.

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<v Speaker 1>Lots for anyone thinking about this or going through it

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<v Speaker 1>to chew on.

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely, it really sets the stage well for understanding the

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<v Speaker 2>role's complexities and its rewards too, So.

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<v Speaker 1>The learner, to bring this deep dive toward a close.

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<v Speaker 1>For now, we've really unpacked the why behind the book,

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<v Speaker 1>what an em actually does, busted some myths about the iced.

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<v Speaker 2>EM move, and stressed how vital self awareness, planning ahead,

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<v Speaker 2>and always learning are for this kind of career shift.

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<v Speaker 1>We hope this gave you that shortcut, highlighted some maybe

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<v Speaker 1>surprising things, and definitely some practical steps mmmmmm.

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<v Speaker 2>Which leads us to a final thought for you, the learner,

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<v Speaker 2>Based on everything we've talked through today, what's maybe the

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<v Speaker 2>very first smallest step you could take if you're considering

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<v Speaker 2>a move into engineering management.

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<v Speaker 1>Something to think about, is you continue exploring,