Speaker 1: Welcome to the deep dive. You are listener, and today
Speaker 1: we're thinking specifically about the learner you've given us your sources.
Speaker 1: Our job simple, we extract the key knowledge you need fast.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Think of it as your shortcut getting you up
Speaker 2: the speed without drowning you in info exactly.
Speaker 1: And today we're plunging into a really common but often
Speaker 1: tricky shift in the tech world.
Speaker 2: Right moving from software engineer you know, an individual contributor
Speaker 2: or IC, to becoming an engineering manager and EM.
Speaker 1: Yep. So, whether you're maybe thinking about this move or
Speaker 1: just curious what it actually involves, or you're already in
Speaker 1: the thick of it, we're going to try and break
Speaker 1: it down.
Speaker 2: And our guide for this is the book Think Like
Speaker 2: a Software Engineering Manager dot pdf.
Speaker 1: Our aim here isn't just to like read the book
Speaker 1: to you, Oh definitely not.
Speaker 2: We want to really get into the EM role itself,
Speaker 2: the subtleties of that IC to EM jump clear up
Speaker 2: some you know, common myths.
Speaker 1: And highlight those key skills you need to build. We're
Speaker 1: hoping for some a ha moments.
Speaker 2: For you, Yeah, moments that just make the whole thing clearer.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's jump right in one of The first things
Speaker 1: that really stood out for me in the book is
Speaker 1: that it feels very authentic, like it comes from someone
Speaker 1: who's actually done this.
Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely. The author kicks off talking about their own
Speaker 2: struggles finding good resources when they made that leap from
Speaker 2: senior engineer to EM.
Speaker 1: Which is so relatable I think totally.
Speaker 2: It grounds the whole thing. This isn't just theory, right,
Speaker 2: It's built on their own journey, the obstacles they hit,
Speaker 2: how they worked through them.
Speaker 1: And they emphasize that it's packed with real workplace stories,
Speaker 1: actual examples.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And for structure, the book sorts things into three
Speaker 2: main pillars for an EM, people, projects, and products, and
Speaker 2: the process is holding it all together.
Speaker 1: That sounds like a really practical way to frame it,
Speaker 1: based on actual experience. It is.
Speaker 2: So let's get down to basics. What is an engineering
Speaker 2: manager according to the book, Well, it.
Speaker 1: Offers a pretty clear definition. Basically, someone who manages other engineers,
Speaker 1: could be direct reports or even managing other managers.
Speaker 2: Right, and it points out that in really early stage
Speaker 2: startups you might not even have a specific EM role.
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, So who does that job? Then?
Speaker 2: Often it's the CTO, the chief technology officer. They kind
Speaker 2: of wear the em hat initially handling both the tech
Speaker 2: vision and the people side. Huh.
Speaker 1: That really shows you, doesn't it. Even in a tiny team,
Speaker 1: those leadership functions are essential.
Speaker 2: Exactly, which brings us to a really key distinction. The
Speaker 2: book makes the difference between management and leadership.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, this is important. The author argues that whatever
Speaker 1: your title em engineering lead, the real focus ought to
Speaker 1: be on engineering leadership. What's the nuance there?
Speaker 2: Well, the interesting part is the idea that you can
Speaker 2: absolutely be a leader without being a manager, and maybe
Speaker 2: more surprisingly, you can be a manager without truly leading.
Speaker 2: But the best ems they manage and they lead, They
Speaker 2: blend both. It's not just about doling out tasks. It's
Speaker 2: about setting direction, inspiring people, fostering growth.
Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense. It's about enabling the team,
Speaker 1: not just directing them. And a massive part of that,
Speaker 1: the book stresses, is genuinely caring for the people.
Speaker 2: Oh hugely. The book lists out so many responsibilities tied
Speaker 2: to that, having meaningful one on ones, talking about careers,
Speaker 2: doing fair performance.
Speaker 1: Reviews, navigating uncertainty, giving emotional support.
Speaker 2: Sometimes team building, really listening, being fair, thinking about diversity
Speaker 2: and inclusion, giving constructive feedback. It's a lot. It really
Speaker 2: highlights the human side of the role.
Speaker 1: It really does. It shifts the focus, doesn't it, from
Speaker 1: just technical output to cultivating a healthy, productive team.
Speaker 2: And to show the impact, the book uses these two examples,
Speaker 2: Alice and Bob.
Speaker 1: Ah Yes, the contrasting managers tell us about them, okay.
Speaker 2: So Alice is shown as an em who sets a
Speaker 2: clear vision right, she guides her team effectively towards success. Bob,
Speaker 2: though he's very hands off lessay fair leaves him to
Speaker 2: it me much and the result, Bob's team starts to drift.
Speaker 2: They lose sight of the bigger picture how their work
Speaker 2: fits in.
Speaker 1: So Alice provides that direction and motivation that Bob's team
Speaker 1: is missing. But the book also says Alice wasn't perfect either. Right,
Speaker 1: even with a vision the way she led head.
Speaker 2: Issues precisely, Alice had direction, Yeah, but her approach was
Speaker 2: quite rigid. She wasn't really open to feedback, didn't create
Speaker 2: an environment where people felt safe to speak up.
Speaker 1: That sounds stifling.
Speaker 2: It was. It dampened creativity and her inflexibility, like demanding
Speaker 2: everyone be in the office on certain days no matter what.
Speaker 2: That hurt morale and trust.
Speaker 1: So leadership isn't just what you achieve, but how you
Speaker 1: get there. It needs that psychological safety, that autonomy.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and the book then gets into different leadership styles
Speaker 2: like transactional and transformational. Can you break those down?
Speaker 1: Sure? Transactional is more about rewards and punishments, right, very
Speaker 1: goal focused, maybe involves closer monitoring.
Speaker 2: Sometimes boring on micromanagement. Yeah, and often morale can suffer.
Speaker 1: Right. Then transformational is more about the big vision inspiration,
Speaker 1: company goals first, strategic.
Speaker 2: Bold, but the potential downside there is maybe missing the
Speaker 2: details the day to day needs of the team.
Speaker 1: So one's very much about the now and external drivers,
Speaker 1: the others about the future and internal motivation. It seems
Speaker 1: like neither extreme is perfect.
Speaker 2: And the book agrees. It really stresses that the best
Speaker 2: leadership is situational. You adapt based on the person, the team,
Speaker 2: the company.
Speaker 1: Context, hybrid approach usually.
Speaker 2: Generally Yeah, drawing bits from different styles works best. The
Speaker 2: book even gives an example of book a team having
Speaker 2: to quickly change its style because a competitor dropped a
Speaker 2: big new feature. Shows you need to be adaptable, right.
Speaker 1: It then quickly covers a few others Autocratic democratic, delegative,
Speaker 1: servant leadership, highlighting the pros and cons of each, but
Speaker 1: always coming back to that idea of a flexible hybrid style.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like autocratic might be needed in a real crisis.
Speaker 2: You know, fast decisions, but.
Speaker 1: Use it all the time. Terrible for morale kills initiative exactly.
Speaker 2: People need to feel heard.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's switch gears slightly. Let's talk about how people
Speaker 1: see this move from IC to EM. The book tackles
Speaker 1: that idea that it's always a step up of.
Speaker 2: Promotion, and it makes a really crucial point. It's better
Speaker 2: to think of it as a lateral career move. It
Speaker 2: requires a totally different set of skills.
Speaker 1: It's not necessarily better than being in IC.
Speaker 2: Just yeah, different exactly, And reframing it like that is
Speaker 2: so important, isn't it. It helps manage expectations for you,
Speaker 2: for your team.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. The book also adds reassuringly, I think that
Speaker 1: these career changes aren't like a one way street. You
Speaker 1: can always learn, always adjust.
Speaker 2: Your path, which is good to remember. Now, a question
Speaker 2: that always comes up, should an EM still code? Ah?
Speaker 1: The coding question. What's the book's stance, Well.
Speaker 2: It's nuanced. It says, Look, it's possible to code as
Speaker 2: an EM, but it strongly advises focusing on the EM
Speaker 2: skills firsts. Trying to do both well often leads to
Speaker 2: burnout and you might end up doing neither job effectively.
Speaker 1: Okay, so hang up the keyboard entirely.
Speaker 2: Not necessarily, The book says, staying connected to the tech
Speaker 2: is really valuable, things like code reviews, design discussions, being
Speaker 2: in the agile ceremonies.
Speaker 1: That makes sense. It keeps you grounded in what the
Speaker 1: team's actually doing, helps with mentoring, builds credibility right.
Speaker 2: And it's just other ways too, like hackathon's or writing
Speaker 2: some automation scripts for your own reports, things that keep
Speaker 2: you technical but don't put you on the clinical path
Speaker 2: for features.
Speaker 1: So you're not becoming a bottleneck exactly.
Speaker 2: And hey, coding for fun once you're settled in the role,
Speaker 2: totally fine.
Speaker 1: It's a balanced view. Stay connected, but let the team
Speaker 1: own the codebase precisely.
Speaker 2: Now, let's hit another big misconception the rock star engineer.
Speaker 1: Myth ah Yeah, the idea that your best coder will
Speaker 1: automatically be your best manager. The book pushes back on
Speaker 1: that right hard.
Speaker 2: It states very clearly being a brilliant engineer does not
Speaker 2: automatic mean you have the people skills to be a great.
Speaker 1: Em Technical skills are important, maybe a prerequisite for.
Speaker 2: Sure, you need that foundation. Yeah, but empathy, communication, delegation, handling, conflict.
Speaker 2: Those are different muscles. Some you might have, many you
Speaker 2: need to build.
Speaker 1: And the risk if you ignore that you could.
Speaker 2: Lose a fantastic ICEE and gain a pretty mediocre manager
Speaker 2: who struggles to support their team. The book warns against that.
Speaker 2: Don't sacrifice great engineers for subparer management.
Speaker 1: It really hammers home that these are separate tracks needing
Speaker 1: different talent. Okay, so how do you actually make the transition?
Speaker 1: The book talks about phases, starting before you're officially an em.
Speaker 2: Right this phase I, it's all about being proactive, having
Speaker 2: that growth mindset, and step one align with your manager.
Speaker 1: Talk to them. Why is that so crucial upfront because it.
Speaker 2: Sets the foundation for everything. You need to state your
Speaker 2: interests clearly, talk about expectations, get their support.
Speaker 1: Makes sense.
Speaker 2: The book suggests maybe creating a thirty sixty to ninety
Speaker 2: day plan. Think of it like a learning period, a
Speaker 2: trial run, almost.
Speaker 1: A chance for you both to see if it's the
Speaker 1: right fit.
Speaker 2: Exactly, and it's a perfect time to spot your own
Speaker 2: skill gaps maybe communication, maybe delegation, and start working on them.
Speaker 2: The author even shares a story about timing their own
Speaker 2: move and talking about it early.
Speaker 1: What about that idea of considering the worst case scenario,
Speaker 1: like what if your manager says no?
Speaker 2: Thinking that through helps you plan strategically anyway. It forces
Speaker 2: you to understand their perspective, maybe look at other paths.
Speaker 2: It's valuable planning.
Speaker 1: Okay, And the book also says start taking on leadership
Speaker 1: tasks now right gradually?
Speaker 2: Yes, definitely start small, mentor and intern, maybe lead a
Speaker 2: small part of a project, be an onboarding buddy.
Speaker 1: Get a feel for the people's stuff exactly.
Speaker 2: See if you actually enjoy growing others, and look for
Speaker 2: projects that involve working across teams, dealing with different stakeholders.
Speaker 2: Practice those communication skills.
Speaker 1: Another tip for this pre em phase document your achievements,
Speaker 1: but specifically against management expectations. Why do that now?
Speaker 2: It builds your case. It's concrete proof you're developing leadership skills,
Speaker 2: especially if your company's career guide for managers isn't super clear,
Speaker 2: so you.
Speaker 1: Can say, look, I've already been doing X Y, and Z,
Speaker 1: which aligned with the EM role precisely.
Speaker 2: It tracks your progress and shows you're ready.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've done the prep work. Now the actual
Speaker 1: move into the EM role. The book mentions different ways
Speaker 1: as can happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It outlines three main scenarios. First, joining a new company.
Speaker 1: As an EM that sounds tough.
Speaker 2: The book suggests it is probably the riskiest new company,
Speaker 2: new team, new role all at once, may be best
Speaker 2: to avoid for your first EM gig if possible.
Speaker 1: Okay, scenario too.
Speaker 2: Transitioning within your current team where you used to be
Speaker 2: an IC peer.
Speaker 1: Ooh, tricky dynamics.
Speaker 2: There can be very delicate. Yeah, you need patients. You
Speaker 2: need to actively build trust in your new capacity, manage perceptions,
Speaker 2: avoid any hint of bias or favoritism, maybe even deal
Speaker 2: with some resentment.
Speaker 1: How do you handle that?
Speaker 2: The book implies things like being really clear on expectations,
Speaker 2: seeking feedback constantly consciously building those new manager report relationships.
Speaker 1: Got it. And the third scenario.
Speaker 2: Moving to manage a different team within the same company.
Speaker 1: That sounds potentially easier.
Speaker 2: The book suggests it often is you already know the
Speaker 2: company culture, the processes. That gives you a head start.
Speaker 2: Even with a new team.
Speaker 1: Okay, So whichever way you transition, the book stresses reflection afterwards,
Speaker 1: a retrospective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, looking back after that initial period, ask yourself things
Speaker 2: like what parts were frustrating? What was satisfying?
Speaker 1: Do I still feel more connected to the code? Or
Speaker 1: am I enjoying enabling people?
Speaker 2: Am I finding joy in my team's success? How do
Speaker 2: my former peers see me now? Am I actually helping
Speaker 2: this team? Really honest questions?
Speaker 1: And how do you measure success beyond just you know
Speaker 1: how you feel?
Speaker 2: The book gives both subjective and objective measures. Subjective your
Speaker 2: comfort level, are you challenged but fulfilled? Do you have
Speaker 2: a clear mission? And objective things like are you multiplying
Speaker 2: the team's impact? Are projects getting delivered successfully? What's the
Speaker 2: feedback from others? Team velocity and attrition rate? Are people staying?
Speaker 1: The goal isn't just to survive the transition.
Speaker 2: No, it's to thrive, And the book adds remember to
Speaker 2: actually celebrate making this big career change.
Speaker 1: Good point. So once you're settling in the book talks
Speaker 1: about identifying your management style. Why is that an ongoing thing?
Speaker 2: Because who you thought you'd be as a manager might
Speaker 2: be different from reality after you've shadowed, been mentored, actually
Speaker 2: done the job for a bit. That's a golden opportunity
Speaker 2: for self assessment.
Speaker 1: So revisit those styles Autocratic, democratic, servant, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Yeah, see which ones feel most natural. Now, maybe you
Speaker 2: thought you were democratic, but you're actually leaning more towards coaching.
Speaker 1: And it's okay if it's not just one style.
Speaker 2: Totally identify one or two as a starting point. But
Speaker 2: the key is flexibility, adapt as you learn as the
Speaker 2: team needs change. Constant learning is the name of the
Speaker 2: game for managers.
Speaker 1: It sounds like it's a continuous journey of refinement.
Speaker 2: Absolutely no fixed endpoint. You're always learning, always adapting.
Speaker 1: Okay, So, as we wrap up this part of our
Speaker 1: deep dive on moving from IC to EM, what are
Speaker 1: the absolute core takeaways for the learner?
Speaker 2: Well, the book's summary really hits the nail on the head.
Speaker 1: First.
Speaker 2: IC and EM are different jobs, different skills.
Speaker 1: Remember that separate tracks.
Speaker 2: Know the definitions, and remember IC to EM isn't automatically
Speaker 2: a promotion, it's a lateral move.
Speaker 1: EMS can stay close to the code, just maybe not
Speaker 1: by writing a day to day exactly.
Speaker 2: Technical skill is still important, but it's not enough on
Speaker 2: its own, and the big.
Speaker 1: One, Great engineers don't automatically make great managers. You need
Speaker 1: those people skills summinate some learned.
Speaker 2: So bottom line from this chapter really evaluate your own skills,
Speaker 2: your own motivations. Is this EM path truly the right
Speaker 2: fit for you.
Speaker 1: That's a fantastic summary of a really dense and useful chapter.
Speaker 1: Lots for anyone thinking about this or going through it
Speaker 1: to chew on.
Speaker 2: Definitely, it really sets the stage well for understanding the
Speaker 2: role's complexities and its rewards too, So.
Speaker 1: The learner, to bring this deep dive toward a close.
Speaker 1: For now, we've really unpacked the why behind the book,
Speaker 1: what an em actually does, busted some myths about the iced.
Speaker 2: EM move, and stressed how vital self awareness, planning ahead,
Speaker 2: and always learning are for this kind of career shift.
Speaker 1: We hope this gave you that shortcut, highlighted some maybe
Speaker 1: surprising things, and definitely some practical steps mmmmmm.
Speaker 2: Which leads us to a final thought for you, the learner,
Speaker 2: Based on everything we've talked through today, what's maybe the
Speaker 2: very first smallest step you could take if you're considering
Speaker 2: a move into engineering management.
Speaker 1: Something to think about, is you continue exploring,