WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:03.319 Doctor Kristen Collier, thank you for joining me on Commitment 2 00:00:03.359 --> 00:00:03.879 to Reality. 3 00:00:04.679 --> 00:00:06.440 Thanks Dave, thanks for having me on your show. 4 00:00:07.240 --> 00:00:09.679 All right, Well, one thing that I really don't like 5 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:14.039 to do is introduce somebody by going down their list 6 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:17.440 of laudits and yours are many. But if you could 7 00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:20.239 you just begin by telling me what your story is. 8 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:24.239 Sure I like that you asked me about my story. 9 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:28.160 I'm a big fan of Austar McIntyre, the late Alista McIntyre, 10 00:00:28.199 --> 00:00:30.120 who said, right, I can only answer the question of 11 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:32.759 what I am to do if I can understand the 12 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:35.200 answers the question of like, what story or stories am 13 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:39.799 I apart? So briefly, my story is that I'm a 14 00:00:39.880 --> 00:00:44.840 Christian wife and mother and physician. I came to the 15 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:48.200 Lord in twenty sixteen with my four boys in Christian Baptism. 16 00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:51.560 I am very thankful to be able to be a 17 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:54.200 physician taking care of the image bearer of God. I'm 18 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:56.759 a Michigander. As part of my story, I've spent fifty 19 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:59.920 years in the beautiful peninsula of the state of Michigan. 20 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:01.799 I live up behind my mom and dad and my 21 00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:04.280 childhood home. I can see them from here. Part of 22 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:08.480 my story is I've been with my husband for thirty 23 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:10.680 some years. We've met in high school and his parents 24 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:13.120 live right around the corner. So I'm a deeply rooted 25 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:16.760 person in the state of Michigan with my family, trying 26 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:20.599 to live, support my parents and Tim's parents as I 27 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:23.159 get older, trying to be a mom and doing the 28 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:25.400 work of that. I feel like I've been called to 29 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:28.239 do in the work of medicine. That's my story in 30 00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:28.799 a nutshell. 31 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:35.319 In a nutshell, So you mentioned your conversion, How did 32 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:38.120 that happen? And you said, you know, you and your 33 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:41.799 husband have been together for a long time. Who started it? 34 00:01:43.239 --> 00:01:46.200 So I would say this, conversions are always probably started 35 00:01:46.200 --> 00:01:49.159 by the Lord. I would say, we're called by him, 36 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:52.480 but sometimes we just don't answer for a long time. 37 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:56.560 So I was raised with my husband. I were raised 38 00:01:56.560 --> 00:02:00.000 in suburban Detroit, and we had a very similar upbringing. 39 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:01.920 And I would say I would say I was raised 40 00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:05.560 as probably a secular humanist. My parents made it very 41 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:08.159 clear that religion was for people who couldn't think very 42 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:11.560 clearly or otherwise were very small minded. So because of that, 43 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:13.319 like we didn't have a Bible in our home, never 44 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:16.759 went to church. I didn't know who Jesus was. And 45 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:19.240 then I think, as people do, we sort of sort 46 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:22.360 ourselves into groups of people like ourselves. And so I 47 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:24.719 came to the University of Michigan. From my undergraduate work 48 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:27.560 in the nineteen nineties, knew I wanted to study science 49 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:31.199 and medicine, and surrounded myself with other people who had 50 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:33.599 views like mine that religion was for people who couldn't 51 00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:37.240 think very clearly. Otherwise we're small minded. My anti religious 52 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:40.439 bias grew, I would say, but then in it was 53 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:42.919 in medical school. So I stayed at Michigan for the 54 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:46.400 University of Michigan Medical School and was able to stay 55 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:50.159 on for medical residency, and was joining that time that 56 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:53.639 I really, I would say, started struggling and wrestling with God. 57 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:57.039 Our hospitals at Michigan Medicine have a very high acuity, 58 00:02:57.080 --> 00:02:59.560 and some of our ICUs have upwards of like a 59 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:04.759 twenty pc mortality, And I saw things in my medical training. 60 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:07.840 I would say that most people are like mostly people 61 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:11.280 right are not prepared to see, you know, babies born 62 00:03:11.319 --> 00:03:14.439 dead and mothers of five being brought in with catastrophic 63 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:17.560 brain injuries. And so during that time, you know, I 64 00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:19.919 wasn't ignorant of God, like I knew. I had heard 65 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:23.199 that God exists and that he's all good and he's 66 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:26.159 all powerful. I'm like, well, if that's true, why is 67 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:30.960 like this like allowed to happen. And so I became 68 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:34.240 very angry with God about the suffering that I saw that, 69 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:36.879 you know, in my mind, I had judged as unfair 70 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:41.719 and unjust and really became a very I would say, 71 00:03:41.800 --> 00:03:44.240 bitter person. And I get I really get now. I 72 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:46.319 think why a lot of physicians have a lot of 73 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:48.919 bad personal outcomes, why they drink too much, like why 74 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:50.840 they have a high rate of divorce, because they see 75 00:03:50.840 --> 00:03:54.120 a lot of suffering, and without a coherent worldview to 76 00:03:54.120 --> 00:03:55.759 try to make sense of that in some way can 77 00:03:55.800 --> 00:03:58.439 really destroy your person, you know. So I continued in 78 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:02.400 that way, and then through the sacrament of marriage, my 79 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:05.280 world became to be shaped in a different way. So 80 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:07.439 my husband, Tim, like I said, had a similar upbringing 81 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:10.879 as did I. But then we started having children. We 82 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:13.599 were gifted children by the Lord, and it was during 83 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:15.879 that time that my husband had his own existential I 84 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:19.519 would say suffering. He was like, we thought he was 85 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:21.800 losing his father. At the time, he was a newly 86 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:24.240 married person, and he was like, what does it mean 87 00:04:24.279 --> 00:04:25.920 to be a dad? What does it mean to lose 88 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:27.759 my own father? What does it mean to be a 89 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:30.800 married person? And so he actually was invited to church 90 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:34.040 by his uncle during that time, and he went and 91 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:38.240 he became a confessing believer. And this was like, I'm 92 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:40.839 not sure I am fully down for this, Like I'm 93 00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:43.240 not sure I signed up to marry a Christian person, 94 00:04:43.319 --> 00:04:45.079 Like I don't know what kind of culture part of 95 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:47.800 but I'm not sure that I really understand it or 96 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:49.600 want to be part of it, to be honest. And 97 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:52.480 my husband Tim was really patient. He took the kids 98 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:55.279 to church by himself, and I just didn't go. And 99 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:57.759 now the fourth child, Isaac, was born. He was born 100 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:00.199 a little bit early, not technically premature, but early enough 101 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:02.480 so if he had failure to thrive. And so I 102 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:04.680 was like, it's so exhausted, right when you have four 103 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:06.639 little kids, Like I didn't know my name, right, I 104 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:07.959 had like a five year old and a four year 105 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:09.399 old and two year old and a baby, And I 106 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:11.800 was like, what is it even going on? And I 107 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:14.720 was really struggling to feed him. And so one night 108 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:17.920 in October when he was a baby. I out of 109 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:20.120 desperation when on the internet and I was like trying 110 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:22.240 to find electation consultant who could come to the home 111 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:24.120 to help me with Isaac. And this one lady called 112 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:25.759 me back and her name was brand and she came 113 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:27.519 to the house and she helped me with Isaac. We 114 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:29.800 got through that time. A year later, Isaac turned one. 115 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:31.959 I emailed Brandy and said, thank you so much for 116 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:34.480 you know, coming to the home and helping with Isaac 117 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:36.360 all those months, because you're the reason we made it. 118 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:37.800 And she's like, why did I tell you at the time, 119 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:40.319 But I'm a pastor's wife. Do you want to come 120 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:43.439 to my lady's Bible study? And I was thinking, like, no, 121 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:45.759 I do not want to come to your lady's Bible study. 122 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:48.000 But because you've been so helpful to me, I felt 123 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:50.000 sort of like out of a sense of obligation to go, 124 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:52.839 and so I went. And I was in my mid 125 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:56.000 thirties at the time, and so I wasn't sure what 126 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:57.839 I was expecting, but I was like, this really lovely 127 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:01.040 group of ladies talking about women in the box and 128 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:04.839 what I heard that evening. Finally I would say, you know, 129 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:06.959 broke open my cold heart, you know, and people are like, well, 130 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:08.639 what did you hear? And I think, as a physician, 131 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:11.600 what I heard that I hadn't heard before was that, 132 00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:14.399 you know, someone who sees broken bodies and broken people 133 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:16.480 all the time in medicine, you know, to hear like this, 134 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:19.720 this isn't the way things are supposed to be, and 135 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:22.519 that you know one day there will be like a 136 00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:25.639 resurrection of bodies, you know, to hear that as a doctor, 137 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:28.160 and that you know, God took on flesh and Jesus 138 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:31.079 Christ and came to die in my place, and that 139 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:34.040 someday like Jesus would take his hand and like wipe 140 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:36.959 every tear away like that. I had never heard anything 141 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:39.879 like that. Like to me, that was more beautiful and 142 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:42.279 stunning and amazing, like than anything I'd ever heard in 143 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:46.040 medical school, right, and it just made sense like that this, this, 144 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:49.439 this was true. And so after that I started thank 145 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:52.879 goodness because the Lord brought so many people into our lives. 146 00:06:52.959 --> 00:06:55.519 Just started like listening to Christian radio and reading and 147 00:06:55.560 --> 00:06:58.920 talking and people prayed for me. And then a few 148 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:01.079 years later I was driving in my car on the 149 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:03.800 Detroit Highways to work and I just had like this 150 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:06.560 overwhelming sense of shame. You know, that i'd been living 151 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:09.600 my life totally is like a nightmare. And all these 152 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:12.920 things that I sort of took a lot of pride in, 153 00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:16.160 like my memory and my medical degree and all these things, 154 00:07:16.759 --> 00:07:18.600 they are all just gifts from God, you know who. 155 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:21.240 I felt just horrible about the way that I've been 156 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:25.920 viewing myself and everyone around me. And so I, you know, 157 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:27.879 was like I want to be baptized. And then the 158 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:30.120 four boys and I were baptized in twenty sixteen into 159 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:30.920 the Christian Church. 160 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:33.120 Yeah. 161 00:07:33.160 --> 00:07:34.639 But I think it just shows like the power of 162 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:37.519 an invitation, you know, and the rippol effective invitation. So 163 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:41.240 Brandy the lactation consultants, like I think all the times 164 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:43.639 that would probably all of us have opportunities to invite 165 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:45.680 people to see things in a radically different way, and 166 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:48.079 we don't do it because it's easier not to. And 167 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:51.199 I would imagine that Brandy probably knew that I probably 168 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:53.199 would have said no, and it's you know, people don't 169 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:55.279 want to be told no or be embarrassed, right, But 170 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:59.480 she took this little active courage and she invited me, 171 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:02.160 and and you know, my goodness, like the ripple of 172 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:05.519 fact that invitation has had has been profound. So I'm 173 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:08.639 so thankful for the Lord to be you know that 174 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:10.920 you can work through us and have us be part 175 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:14.399 of the invitation to people to be invited to him. 176 00:08:14.839 --> 00:08:17.439 But that sort of how things went down interesting. 177 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:20.199 There's so many different directions that I want to go 178 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.040 in just based on what you said, but usually we 179 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:25.959 just take the last one we get to. And you 180 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:30.279 said courage, and it took the courage right now. I 181 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:32.039 told you that I became aware of you a couple 182 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:36.080 of years ago. Can you guess how I became aware 183 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:36.320 of you? 184 00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:39.279 I can guess to want me to try to give 185 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:43.080 you my answer to the let's do it so a 186 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:47.360 couple of years ago, I was part of a situation 187 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:49.279 where I was asked to give a big talk at 188 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:53.399 the University of Michigan Medical School and there was a 189 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.840 walk out during my talk at Hill Editorian in Arbor 190 00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:00.759 by some members of the audience, And there was someone 191 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:03.639 planted in the audience who recorded the walkout, and that 192 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:07.440 video went somewhat viral on social media and the story 193 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:10.080 made the national news. So I bet that that's the 194 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:13.159 reason that you heard about me and the work that 195 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:14.360 I do Bengo. 196 00:09:14.840 --> 00:09:20.039 Yeah, okay, And you know, one, it showed a lot 197 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:24.600 of courage on your part. But two, and this is 198 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:27.679 really interesting. I don't know if you follow the news 199 00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:30.559 and the World Cup and everything in the branding, but 200 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:33.360 there's a big story that came out a couple of 201 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:36.960 days ago about Levi's and branding. Have you seen this? 202 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:38.679 I have done. So. 203 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:45.480 The World Cup has very tight sponsorship agreements and they 204 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:48.879 try to block out anything that doesn't fall under those 205 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:52.480 to protect them. Right. Sure, But what often happens when 206 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:54.879 you try to do that is something you know, if 207 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:58.759 you're clever, the message gets out and it gets amplified 208 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:01.559 to a degree that you would not have expected or wanted. 209 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:05.480 So what Levi's did is they put a tarp over 210 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:07.840 their logo on the on the stadium I think it's 211 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:12.320 in California, maybe San Francisco. Instead of it being Levi's stadium, 212 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:16.679 it's San Francisco Bay Area stadium. For the work, Well, 213 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:19.919 they cut out a perfect cloth to fit right over 214 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:25.480 the very recognizable Levi's logo. Interesting, and the message got out, 215 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:27.399 Oh you want to censor me, Well, here you go. 216 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:30.919 The message gets amplified when you do that, and that's 217 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:35.480 what happened with you. I mean, I think a lot 218 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:38.559 more people saw your speech and were impacted by your 219 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:41.440 speech and your story than would have been had people 220 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:42.679 not tried to silence you. 221 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:47.399 I think that's I think that's true. It's interesting that 222 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:52.080 when we when I'm sure you've had this experience, when 223 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:54.919 you're putting together a really high stakes presentation or high 224 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:58.440 stakes talk, though, and something like this happens. I wonder 225 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:01.960 if anyone actually like the content of my talk. I mean, 226 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:04.919 I agree like me and the story made the news, 227 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:06.360 but I was like, oh my goodness, I spent all 228 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:08.159 this time working on this talk. I'm not sure anybody 229 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:10.320 actually heard it, because the talk itself, I thought was 230 00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:12.879 really lovely and it was sort of buried into the noise. 231 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:16.080 But yes, I think the attention that was brought to 232 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:21.600 the really real topic of viewpoint diversity and moral diversity 233 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:25.679 within medicine and free speech and academic freedom, I'm I'm 234 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:30.480 happy to sacrifice my talk sort of on sort of 235 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:34.720 the platform of having us talk about bigger, transcendent things 236 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:36.480 like that. And I agree there was a lot of 237 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:39.960 attention brought to those questions in the academy because of 238 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:40.639 what happened. 239 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:43.000 Well, I did hear it, and I do want to 240 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:45.840 talk about your talk. Oh that's so exciting and I 241 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:46.399 remember it. 242 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:49.679 Oh that's really kind. I'm so all these I'm so glad, 243 00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:50.120 thank you. 244 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:54.440 But you talk about viewpoint diversity, and I don't even 245 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:57.840 know what the truth is. I was sitting on the 246 00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:00.759 couch this morning talking to my wife and I said, 247 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:08.000 I feel like most doctors don't are not believers. So 248 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:09.960 I got up my phone and I googled, Well, that 249 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:13.960 doesn't seem true. It said that, you know, whatever the 250 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:16.360 number is, let's say sixty five to seventy five percent 251 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:19.759 of doctors have some form of faith. Yeah, that doesn't 252 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:23.919 feel like what I think. So then I did the inverse. 253 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:29.320 You know what field has the highest percentage of atheists? 254 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:35.159 And it was biologists academic. It is so okay, maybe 255 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:37.440 they're both true at the same time. I don't know. 256 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:41.000 But what is your experience, because you know, you kind 257 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.840 of described your upbringing and if you were truly a 258 00:12:44.919 --> 00:12:49.799 serious thinking person, faith was not on the table, and 259 00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:52.600 I grew up in a very Christian home. We talked 260 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:55.720 a little bit about my family and my my dad's 261 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:59.919 radio show, and I grew up with every opportunity, and 262 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:04.159 yet even I had falled prey to the culture about well, 263 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:07.360 if you want to be a serious thinker, God is 264 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:10.639 not part of the equation. What are your thoughts on that? 265 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:16.200 Yeah, I think it's one of those things that part 266 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:20.399 of it is that is a hard scientist that I 267 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:24.080 did not see a role for faith to be part 268 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:26.440 of my purview, and I thought it sort of would 269 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:28.320 work against what I was trying to do, and I 270 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.519 think I did have I think part of this conversation 271 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:34.600 right gets the idea that many of us have spiritual 272 00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:37.919 blinders on that even if the truth would be presented 273 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:42.120 to us, we just can't see it for many reasons. 274 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:47.679 There's this quote, I think it's from Saint John Paul 275 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:50.200 the Second, and he says something like, you know, faith 276 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:52.919 and reason are like two wings on which the human 277 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:56.720 spirit rises with the contemplation of truth. And I heard 278 00:13:56.799 --> 00:13:59.919 Robbie George talking about that quote recently in a plenary talk, 279 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:02.879 and he said he thinks about this idea of those 280 00:14:02.919 --> 00:14:05.720 being the wings on which people contemplate truth, and he 281 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:08.480 said his probably George grew up in West Virginia and 282 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:10.480 he used to hunt and he said sometimes when they 283 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:14.039 would shoot for sport and a bird would fall and 284 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:17.600 one of its wings were damaged, that the other wing 285 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:20.720 would just keep flapping right and as hard as it could, 286 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:22.120 but the bird on the ground would just sort of 287 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:25.240 spin around in circles. It couldn't move because it didn't 288 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:28.519 have the other wing right. And I love that analogy 289 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:32.279 because I do think now that I have thank goodness 290 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:35.360 because of the faith that's been gifted to me, a 291 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:39.200 fuller understanding of my own vocation in medicine, and I'm 292 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:42.879 able to contemplate truth. And I would say, if this 293 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:44.639 were something that I were writing out to you, I 294 00:14:44.679 --> 00:14:46.720 would have put truth at the capital tea, because you 295 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:49.559 believe truth would be a person in Jesus Christ. So 296 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:52.279 I do think that part of this. You know, Yes, 297 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:54.639 I was educated. I went to probably some of the 298 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:58.720 best schools, I would say, around, but because I didn't 299 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:03.000 have the gift of Fai, my education is impoverished. It's interesting. 300 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:06.639 I think about medicine a lot because it's my vocation 301 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:08.279 and I love it dearly, and I do think it's 302 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:11.639 under somewhat of an attack, a spiritual attack. I would say, 303 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:15.159 he's thinking worth doing or that's beautiful. I think that 304 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:18.639 God's designed, I think that it will be attacked. But 305 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:22.360 I don't know the data precisely, but we do know 306 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:24.639 actually that a lot of there was a stot. Even 307 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:26.840 Kristen Robinson a few years ago at the same time 308 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:29.320 as I will use in papers, and she did a 309 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:31.639 survey of physicians, and I would agree with you that 310 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:36.759 physicians are a type of scientist. But physicians actually have 311 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:40.840 different religious sort of identification than most scientists do, and 312 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:42.320 that a lot of actually, as you saw, a lot 313 00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:46.039 of physicians will identify as having a religious faith or 314 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:49.399 some type of spiritual practice. Although most physicians are most 315 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:52.559 are more religiously diverse than the US public, they have 316 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:57.200 a probably a similar amount of like religious identification that 317 00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:02.240 Kristin Robinson said that when her survey about a third 318 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:07.080 of people in healthcare actually come into medicine because of 319 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.480 their faith commitments, like it's the thing that drives them 320 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:12.919 into medicine. And then once they get into the academy, 321 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:17.679 medicine because of its you know, bias or because of 322 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:21.159 its imminent frame of materialism, makes it seem like you 323 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:22.679 have to like check your faith at the door to 324 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:26.240 be considered a legitimate person. And then that again is 325 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:29.159 really not good. We don't expect other people to empty 326 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:32.120 their identities when they come in to medicine. And actually 327 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:36.159 we know, actually people's faith identities are a pathway for 328 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:38.840 which people can seek meaning. And we know actually that 329 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:42.879 having a sustained animation of a sense of meaning is 330 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:45.879 a protective thing for you to not get burnt out 331 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:48.600 in medicine. So why are we asking Christian people to 332 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:50.799 empty themselves? I wrote a piece about this and the 333 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:54.480 Who's in public discourse a couple of years ago. It's 334 00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:57.519 called the dark canosis of medical education. Thinking about pinosis 335 00:16:57.639 --> 00:16:59.840 means to empty yourself, and think about the kinnosis of 336 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:05.200 in Philippines too that but in medicine is a dark pronouncis, 337 00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:07.480 it's a dark empty and that we're asked, specifically of 338 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:10.680 Christian people to empty themselves. So getting back to this 339 00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:14.319 question around viewpoint diversity and just diversity, I think we've 340 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:16.279 done a really nice job of about thinking about the 341 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:19.160 diversity and the academy, but now as much attention to 342 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:22.279 religious diversity or viewpoint diversity. And again, if we're going 343 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:25.359 to have in the spirit of university, with a spirit 344 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:28.799 of open pluralism a way to discuss important matters that 345 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:31.119 where life literally is at stake, we should be all 346 00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:32.920 at We should be able to sort of sit with 347 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:35.200 people who have viewsed different from our own and be 348 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:37.359 able to welcome people in the fullness of who they are. 349 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:39.839 And I think that this white coat walk out that 350 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:41.640 happened to me a few years ago shows that we 351 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:44.200 don't do a good job of being able to sit 352 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:46.119 with people who have viewpoints that are different than our own. 353 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:50.839 We don't tolerate right ethical dissent in medicine, and that's 354 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:53.720 too bad because it's to our own detriment, because these 355 00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:56.319 conversations actually need us talking about them more and not 356 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:58.759 lesson to sort of put it out into the open, 357 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:00.759 because we haven't set it explicitly. The reason that the 358 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:05.200 walkout happened was because I consider myself to be a 359 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:08.880 pro life person. So the issue specifically was around the 360 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:12.680 students and some of the academy feeling that my pro 361 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:15.720 life views that in part flow out of my Christian 362 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:18.839 faith delegitimized me as being able to talk. And at 363 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:21.000 the top I wasn't even talking about abortion. I just 364 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:23.759 like welcome to medical school. So again it made it 365 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:25.440 seem like if you are a pro life or someone 366 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:28.079 who identifies as much, don't, you can't talk about anything 367 00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:30.759 in the academy. So I think that's that's the interesting 368 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:33.319 struggle that I think we're still wrestling within the academy 369 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:36.160 is how do we tolerate peopoint diversity. Are there limits 370 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:38.599 around that? And how do we sit with each other 371 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:42.000 as people of goodwill who made disagree about contested topics 372 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:44.480 to be able to make sure that the best arguments 373 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:46.440 rise to the top and we know what we're doing here. 374 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:51.119 You talked about viewpoint diversity and you said check your 375 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:54.799 worldview or your religion at the door, right, But I 376 00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:58.039 think that's a faulty premise because it assumes that there's 377 00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:02.359 such a thing as in the public square, And what 378 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:05.960 really ends up happening is check your religion at the door, 379 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:10.640 while our religion stays inside, which is materialism ultimately, right, 380 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:14.599 And there's an idol of that, right? Do you think 381 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:17.119 that we've made an idol of medicine and science in 382 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:20.640 a way. You talk about their atheist or no religion, 383 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:22.759 but I think the religion really is the science in 384 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:23.160 a sense. 385 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:27.319 I yes, I think a couple of things. First of all, 386 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:30.640 I agree with you that sometimes when religious people are 387 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:33.599 meant to say, people sometimes to say to religious people, well, 388 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:37.440 you are uniquely awkward, and we don't want religious people 389 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:42.440 at the table and committees in policy to inform the 390 00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:46.680 public square. And my friend Charlie Kmosi always reminds me 391 00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:48.960 that there is no view from nowhere. Right as you said, 392 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:53.599 everyone's coming to the table at a physical table with 393 00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:58.200 their first you know, principles, with their faith claims, with 394 00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:01.559 their view of the good. Religion people and non religious 395 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:04.119 people and everyone. We say everyone's religious in someone because 396 00:20:04.119 --> 00:20:07.759 they believe it's something of ultimate meaning included. And people 397 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:10.079 would say, well, you're you know, you are uniquely awkward 398 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:13.000 because you have faith claims, and so your faith claims 399 00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:15.319 are the reason that you can't be sort of a 400 00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:19.480 serious person. But you know, everyone has faith claims. Yes, 401 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:22.000 we have as Christians, we have faith in the resurrection 402 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:24.039 of bodies and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. But 403 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:26.480 guess why, Like everyone has faith in something. People have 404 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:29.960 faith in science, or faith in progress, or faith in 405 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:33.640 mankind or faith in politics. So again, right, there's this 406 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:37.039 idea that like while everything else is like this common 407 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:40.000 shared morality or that there's a sort of neutrality, and 408 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:42.519 that's just not true. Someone or some view is going 409 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:46.680 to inform the situation, and we should be allowed to 410 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:49.519 sort of have to make sure, because it's hypocrisy not 411 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:51.440 to to make sure that people who have religious or 412 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:53.920 faith commandments are allowed to sort of have a seat 413 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:56.720 at the table. Your question about idolatry is super interesting 414 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:01.160 to me. I didn't really know what that term was. Again, 415 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:03.160 I have the literacy to understand what that term meant 416 00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:07.599 before my Christian baptism. But now I do realize, looking 417 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:11.640 back on my life, that I agree that I had 418 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:14.079 made medicine into an idol. And I'm sure I'm not 419 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:16.720 alone in that, you know, I think medicine is is. 420 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:20.319 Who was it that said that we're all like sort 421 00:21:20.359 --> 00:21:24.440 of idol making factories, one of the Protestant theologians, But 422 00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:27.640 it's true, right, I think that medicine is an easy 423 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:31.319 thing to make into an idol. It's very glittery, it 424 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:34.400 does a lot of good, it holds a lot of promise, 425 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:37.559 so it's easy to sort of worship it as like 426 00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:41.960 the thing that can save us, you know. And I 427 00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:44.880 remember when I was in my twenties, and I was 428 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:46.839 in the midst of, like, you know, sort of thinking 429 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:51.640 about Jacob wrestling with God. I was a medical resident 430 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:55.599 and one of my chief residents, Jake, who was the 431 00:21:55.680 --> 00:22:01.279 year above me, developed a really bad, serious illness, and 432 00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:06.480 it still shocks me actually to this day that he 433 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:09.119 died under our watch. You know, we had like all 434 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.039 the best things, we had, like a worldwide expert in 435 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:15.240 his disease. We have all the shiny equipments, all the medication, 436 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:19.559 all the NIHS research funding, and yet he died. And 437 00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:24.160 I remember at that time being so angry about that, 438 00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:27.640 like it seems so unfair and so unshust and like, again, 439 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:30.079 if God really did exist and he was good, how 440 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:32.720 could he take Jake from us, you know? And I 441 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:35.319 realized at that point, which was really hard to learn, 442 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:37.559 but I'm so glad that I realized that at that 443 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:41.680 point we thought I had created medicine into an idol. 444 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:46.279 And at that point I realized that, you know, medicine 445 00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:49.839 has limits, and I need to understand from who I 446 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:52.480 now now now know from whom are all our health 447 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:55.599 flows is the Lord. And medicine for sure can be 448 00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:58.839 used in pursuit and service of mankind. But it has 449 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:02.720 to be properly ordered, because once our idols come crashing down, 450 00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:05.119 which is very painful for me, I think the right 451 00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:07.279 order of things shines out of that darkness. And it 452 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:09.599 took several years for me to see that. But I 453 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:11.880 do think I made medicine to an idol, and I 454 00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:14.400 think a lot of people still have medicine as an idol. Medicine. 455 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:17.279 I think sometimes there's this, like, you know, underlying assumption 456 00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:19.039 that if we just and I think I carry this, 457 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:21.720 you know, it's part of the Baconian project, like that 458 00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:24.880 if we just have enough time or enough science or 459 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:28.680 enough research, that we're going to be able meda through biomedicine, right, 460 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:33.200 we are going to be able to overcome the biggest 461 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:35.559 human finitude that there is, which is death. And you 462 00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:38.119 know that makes a false It makes up any suparity 463 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:40.039 of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. Medicine is not 464 00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:43.279 gonna be our savior. Medicine has good goodness to it, 465 00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:46.440 and I don't want to discount how amazing medicine has 466 00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:48.920 been in the lives of so many people. But it 467 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:50.799 has to be properly ordered, so we don't make it 468 00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:51.480 into an idol. 469 00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:56.400 Yeah, well yeah, I said, make an idol of medicine, but. 470 00:23:56.440 --> 00:23:58.559 Also health, oh for sure. 471 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:01.880 And that's kind of that. That's at the the you know, 472 00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:07.799 the longevity or everything like that. But you said that 473 00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:10.000 one of the things that you struggled with the most, 474 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.440 and the reason that you think that, you know, doctors 475 00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:15.799 struggle with addiction or just the struggle in general, maybe 476 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:18.480 being angry at God or not believing that God exists 477 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:21.519 because you know, why would it God allow this? What 478 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:25.200 I see, well, something that I think a lot about 479 00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:28.559 is that we do not face the reality of death 480 00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:34.079 the way that our ancestors did. Just as you're talking, 481 00:24:34.119 --> 00:24:39.519 I started thinking it may be true that doctors are 482 00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:46.920 bearing an unnatural burden for society that society wants held together. Now. 483 00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:50.559 I say that because generally speaking, in our modern world, 484 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:56.359 death is isolated to a sterilized environment, you know, and 485 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:00.039 instead of you know what I imagine to be the 486 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.000 case in the past, where you died at home and 487 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:05.759 you had to be surrounded by the body. I mean, 488 00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:08.039 not to be graphic, but you smelled the body. I mean, 489 00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:13.799 you experienced death on a daily basis in its reality, 490 00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:17.799 not in a sanitized sense, whereas now I feel like 491 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:23.720 doctors and nurses and everybody in your industry is kind 492 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:29.880 of holding the weight of that reality for society. 493 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:33.759 I may agree, I agree, there's so much there. I 494 00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:37.160 guess at first I would say that thinking about, you know, 495 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:42.119 health as an idol, I do think again, our health 496 00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:46.000 that has realized for our bodies is a gift from God, 497 00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:50.400 and we should obviously are the body. I'm writing a 498 00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:52.240 piece right now about the bodies, but thinking a lot 499 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:54.319 about it. But the body, obviously, I think, in our 500 00:25:54.759 --> 00:25:58.079 orality is not incidental to the Christian faith, by the 501 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:02.160 body is obviously incredibly central to the narrative. Jesus Christ 502 00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:04.119 had a body, He has a body. Central to our 503 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:06.759 faith is resturctive bodies, and health is something that we 504 00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:10.319 should shepherd. But once we start putting again health as 505 00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:12.640 an idol, then we start to subvert all these other 506 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:17.680 goods right that we shouldn't. So, you know, nowhere in 507 00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:20.839 the scriptures do I find actually Jesus preserving his life 508 00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:24.200 at all costs, or the martyrs, like we know, actually right, 509 00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:26.799 like we have the perfect example as Christian physicians that 510 00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:29.119 you know, health should not be the highest good and 511 00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:31.880 We have people all the time who choose to subvert 512 00:26:31.880 --> 00:26:35.400 their health for higher goods. You know, recently saw in 513 00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:38.759 clinic a woman who is pregnant and she has a 514 00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:42.359 high risk medical condition, and she is choosing to continue 515 00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:45.599 her pregnancy and carry her baby even though her life 516 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:49.440 is very well, maybe a risk. Right. I have a 517 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.400 patient who's a firefighter who subverts his health all the 518 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:56.440 time by running into burning buildings to like rescue animals 519 00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.720 and babies and older people. Right, he subverts his health. Right. 520 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:02.359 We subvert our health all the time, even as parents, 521 00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:04.079 I would say, we subvert a health in some way. 522 00:27:04.200 --> 00:27:07.759 So we can't make health into an idol. And also 523 00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:10.720 I think we could fall into the other trap where 524 00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:13.960 we really are sort of not we're so we're so 525 00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:17.119 focused on like this gnosticism, like oh as christions, like 526 00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:19.680 it's really our spirit and our soul, and that's the 527 00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:22.079 thing that goes to the Lord, and that we think 528 00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:24.400 that our body doesn't matter, right, and that we don't 529 00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:27.039 take care of it. So I think trying to sort 530 00:27:27.079 --> 00:27:31.079 of think about that ordering properly. The question of death 531 00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:33.759 is so important. There's a great book that I read 532 00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:36.759 from my friend Jeff Bishop when I was starting on 533 00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:42.319 my philosophical understanding of medicine, and it's called the Interspatory Corpse. 534 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:45.880 So Jeff says that which is true that you know, 535 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:49.920 a couple hundred years ago, in medicine's attempt to become 536 00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:53.799 a hard science, it tried to. It can't fully, but 537 00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:57.200 it tried to distance itself from the Church, and doing 538 00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:01.400 so try to sort of leave behind all transcend it 539 00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:05.720 in metaphysical goods, and in that framework then of materialism. 540 00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:10.200 Then basically, Jeff says, because there's no escaton or there's 541 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:13.480 nothing that happens after death, that death is like the 542 00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:17.119 end of medicine. And he said that we're all just 543 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:19.359 innticipatory corpses. So the title of the book is Into 544 00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:22.119 History Corpse. And he says that the dead body then 545 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:24.839 becomes normative in medicine. And he says that this is 546 00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:28.319 played out because the first patient that you get in 547 00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:30.839 medical school is a dead one. It's the cadaver in 548 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:34.319 the gross lab. And so he says, if that's true, 549 00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:38.240 and if that's the framework by which most people are operating, 550 00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:41.160 then medicine is like a nihilistic practice, like what are 551 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:43.640 we doing to take care of anticipatory corpses, you know, 552 00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:46.640 and then you start to see yourself as inspiratory corpse 553 00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:50.920 at best, right, the worst case scenario is that even 554 00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:53.680 within that you starts seeing life is just in people. 555 00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:56.000 It's just bags of blood and bones or molecules in motion, 556 00:28:56.200 --> 00:29:01.079 and medicine becomes a nihilistic practice. So medicine has a 557 00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:05.319 you know, I think unique relationship with death. Society does 558 00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:07.440 in particular. I mean, I think medicine does have a 559 00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:09.319 front row seat to the reality of death. We see 560 00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:11.480 death all the time, you know, as you said, I 561 00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:15.880 can still remember the smell in my nostrils of the 562 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.759 cadaver that I dissected in gross lab like twenty five 563 00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:21.000 years ago. But we've seen death up close, and you 564 00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:25.160 know how horrific it is. That should provide us space 565 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:29.119 for productively wondering about our own mortality and about the 566 00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:33.000 meaning of death. But because we it's uncomfortable, and because 567 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:35.240 we're busy, we push it away. And I think again 568 00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:38.640 that causes distress in healthcare providers and the feeling from 569 00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:42.319 the public that we can overcome death. There's an interesting 570 00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:44.319 piece that I read a few years ago that says 571 00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:48.160 that oftentimes, like because death is considered to be the 572 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:50.799 ultimate enemy because again there's nothing after that, and we 573 00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:54.160 need to sort of you know, try to fight it 574 00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:57.480 at all cost. This leads to this right idea of like, 575 00:29:57.559 --> 00:30:00.680 you know, people being on machines when they should at 576 00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:04.599 home without the burdensome you know, ventilator or ecmol or hymandialysis. 577 00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:07.720 But also about sometimes how when we when medicine does 578 00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:10.720 like a code, when someone codes, and you know it's 579 00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:13.200 someone really who should be allowed to have their natural 580 00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:15.960 because they've died at that point, most of them, right, 581 00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:18.960 that we basically like do this big show where medicine 582 00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:22.119 has this resuscitation and and like this whole sort of 583 00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:26.240 like sort of ritual around that because because death is like, 584 00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:28.480 to some of us, the biggest affront that there is, 585 00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:32.240 because it's a failure of us. And again, like it's 586 00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:34.200 that idea that you said of like this burden, like 587 00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:38.599 we are carrying the like right survival of humanity on 588 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:40.920 our shoulders, and like it's up to us to like 589 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:43.240 overcome death and if we can't, we have to put 590 00:30:43.240 --> 00:30:47.000 on this show. And like you know, so it's really 591 00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:50.359 really complicated. And when medicine doesn't think about death properly 592 00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:53.079 and our health properly, and or the vocation properly. What 593 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:56.559 happens is people suffer. So yeah, I think death is 594 00:30:56.599 --> 00:30:58.359 really something that we should be talking about more. And 595 00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:00.359 I think the general public isn't have a good death 596 00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:03.640 that you said, because it's something that happens to other 597 00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:05.559 people or when it happens to people in our family, 598 00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:08.240 it's so walled away that we really don't have experience 599 00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:11.480 with it, as you said, until someone like you know 600 00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:13.559 a lot of my I'm I'm a gen xer. Right 601 00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:15.319 the first time sometimes some of my friends have seen 602 00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:18.200 death is you know, when their parents are approaching death. 603 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:20.039 And right if you said two hundred years ago, we 604 00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:22.119 would have lived, you know, in a place where our animals, 605 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:24.039 we would have seen our animals eye at home. And 606 00:31:24.039 --> 00:31:25.599 again not to say this is a good thing, but 607 00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:28.599 like people would have you know, lost siblings and birth 608 00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:32.079 and you would have seen, right, your family and there'll 609 00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:34.920 be death and we would have more of attention to 610 00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:37.759 like what that looks like and not those opportunities are hard. 611 00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:40.480 And I'm not saying that we shouldn't like try to, like, 612 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:43.480 you know, help people live, but it's just the proper 613 00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:45.480 ordering of these things that I think is important. As 614 00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:46.960 you said, so we don't create an idol or that 615 00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:48.519 we don't sort of think about these things in a 616 00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:50.440 way that's so low that we are have a disregard 617 00:31:50.440 --> 00:31:53.119 for the body or for our lives either or we 618 00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:55.240 don't think about them at all, right, or we just 619 00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:57.759 don't think about them. And that's that's really one of 620 00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:01.400 the things that I'm getting at is when you sanitize death, 621 00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:05.200 it becomes almost fictitious until it hits home, like you said, 622 00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:08.440 when a parent or a grandparent, or God forbid a 623 00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:13.519 sibling or a child. And so we don't see death, 624 00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:16.039 and then when we do, I don't know that we 625 00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:18.279 approach dying well. 626 00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:21.920 As something that we should learn to do. It's some 627 00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:24.400 death is something that we avoid, but dying well is 628 00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:26.279 something that we should learn to do. And you say 629 00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:30.960 that that Christians have a unique thing to offer society 630 00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:32.880 when it comes to learning to die, well, could you 631 00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:33.440 explain that? 632 00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:36.599 Yeah, sure, so I think of I think it's in 633 00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:39.839 the Letter to the Thessalonians, and it's Saint Paul who 634 00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:45.039 says something like we do not grieve or laments like 635 00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:48.839 people who have no hope, right, And so again I 636 00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:52.240 think about I think about how hard it is. I 637 00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:54.400 had to have a really tough conversation in clinic yesterday 638 00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:57.640 with somebody who's dying, and it's so hard, and I 639 00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:00.599 absolutely a grieve when that person pass. It is as 640 00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:02.839 I think I should as a physician. I think of 641 00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:06.799 the great physician himself, Jesus Christ, as my role model. 642 00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:10.279 And I think about Jesus weeping right at the loss 643 00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:13.119 of Lazarus. And if the divine physician can weep and 644 00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:15.279 cry and more in death, you know, so can I, 645 00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:17.000 you know. And I think of all the identities of 646 00:33:17.079 --> 00:33:21.519 Jesus that I relate to the most as a physician, it's, 647 00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:26.599 you know, the the image of Jesus Christ, as you know, 648 00:33:26.599 --> 00:33:29.720 the suffering servan acquainted with grief like I am acquainted 649 00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:34.319 with grief, like physicians are acquainted with grief. But as 650 00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:37.000 Paul says, we're not left in that grief, right, We're 651 00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:38.960 not left into the grief of like people who have 652 00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:42.839 no hope. And what our hope is and what particularly 653 00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:45.519 that hope refers to, I believe is the hope and 654 00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:49.240 the resurrection. So yes, I can lament and I can 655 00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:52.640 work hard to take care of my patients. But I'm 656 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:55.720 not left in that despair. I can look forward to 657 00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:59.160 this to the day right in the New Jerusalem when 658 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:02.799 the reseruction of the bodies, and as C. S. Lewis said, 659 00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:07.319 someday everything sad will become untrue. That's where my hope lies. 660 00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:07.640 You know. 661 00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:09.519 If I didn't have that, I'd be like left in 662 00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:12.440 the despair. And I might try to like try to 663 00:34:12.440 --> 00:34:15.880 have a half or work around for these things and 664 00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:19.159 start believing in transhumanism, or try to think medicine can 665 00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:21.400 be the savior and try to you know, become like 666 00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:23.840 the tech the tech bros. Right, And I think that's 667 00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:26.719 where my hope lies. And that's how our hope lies. 668 00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:29.440 That's a false hope, right, and that could be costly 669 00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:32.400 in all the ways, Thank goodness, because I think, you know, 670 00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:34.800 without hope, right, we are we are left in despair, 671 00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:36.280 and so we have to have some hope. So where's 672 00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:37.840 your hope going to be? Is it going to be 673 00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:40.039 in the truth or is it going to be in 674 00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:44.159 your digitized consciousness with the tech bros. You choose, you choose. 675 00:34:44.840 --> 00:34:47.079 So we've talked about death. What is health? I mean, 676 00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:49.639 I think you have a unique perspective on at least 677 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:50.719 how you define it. 678 00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:55.559 Yeah, this is something that I also have realized that 679 00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:58.280 I had a very impoverished idea about. It's interesting, you know, 680 00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:02.159 medicine has the these assumptions that it works under that 681 00:35:02.199 --> 00:35:04.039 we just all sort of assume we know what health is, 682 00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:07.639 or that we assume we know what a person is. 683 00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:11.280 I sometimes we'll ask my students across the country or 684 00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:13.840 students that I run into, Yeah, Sharon, medicine. Do you 685 00:35:13.880 --> 00:35:17.280 remember ever having a medical school class on like what 686 00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:19.320 is a human being or what is a person? And 687 00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:22.440 they're like, no, I do you think about that when 688 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:24.599 like that's what we do is we take care of 689 00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.400 human beings, like in persons, Like are those who are 690 00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:29.400 those terms the same? And maybe people don't think those 691 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:31.760 terms are the same, Like what are the consequences of that? 692 00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:34.400 So it's interesting, but like we don't engage these questions 693 00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:37.559 of death, personhood, health, right, we just sort of we 694 00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:39.239 assume we sort of know what those things are. This's 695 00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:41.960 actually wildly different ideas out there about what those terms mean. 696 00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:45.480 So again, after my Christian baptism, I realized I had 697 00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:47.159 a very thin view of health and I need to 698 00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:50.000 understand what that means. It's interesting, you know, there are 699 00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:52.079 many good definitions of health out there. There are many 700 00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:56.559 bad ones. Lehne Cass, who's you know, is head of 701 00:35:56.599 --> 00:35:59.559 the President's Council Bioethics under George Bush, and as a 702 00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:03.320 physician and about athesists, his definition is interesting and his 703 00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:06.039 definition is health is like the well working of the 704 00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:11.119 organism as a whole. I'm constantly in a debate about 705 00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:14.480 people with thought definition. I think that's an interesting definition, 706 00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:17.280 although I still think it's a little bit too narrow. 707 00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:20.480 So what is not a good definition of health is 708 00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:22.800 sometimes when I ask students like about the definition of health, 709 00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:25.239 people will say, what health is the actuence of disease. 710 00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:27.920 I don't think that's a good definition of health. It's 711 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:31.000 very impoverished as really no positive view of human flourishing 712 00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:34.360 at all. So one time I was asking this question 713 00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:38.039 to students and a medical student raised her hand and 714 00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:41.880 said that she had been an anthropology major at the 715 00:36:41.960 --> 00:36:44.400 University of Iowa before coming to med school, and her 716 00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:48.760 senior project was asking farmers in Iowa what is health? 717 00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:53.719 And she said her survey found that time and time again, 718 00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:56.679 the farmers would say stuff like I don't consider myself 719 00:36:56.679 --> 00:36:59.679 healthy unless like the soil on my farm is healthy, 720 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:04.480 my crops are healthy, and my animals are healthy, and 721 00:37:04.519 --> 00:37:07.440 my neighbors are healthy. And it was like this beautiful 722 00:37:08.360 --> 00:37:12.760 vision really of like health is like Shalom. I was 723 00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:17.119 not taught health at Shaloman Medical School at all, and 724 00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:22.039 I have since that time come to start to understand, 725 00:37:22.119 --> 00:37:26.440 actually health is right relationship. Health like none of us 726 00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:29.519 are fully live by ourselves. I'm convinced of that, and 727 00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:32.639 I'm convinced that like health has to be realized in relationship, 728 00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:35.559 not just like on the horizontal level of like health 729 00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:39.760 with our bodies, with creation, with our neighbor, but actually 730 00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:43.679 on the vertical plane as well. We have to be 731 00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:45.880 in right relationship with the Lord from whom all our 732 00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:49.480 health flows. So I've started to think about health's right relationships. 733 00:37:49.480 --> 00:37:52.280 Some of my critics think about it's too broad of 734 00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:54.320 a vision of health, where I think that while working 735 00:37:54.360 --> 00:37:56.119 at the organism of a whole is too narrow, So 736 00:37:56.159 --> 00:38:00.159 maybe the sweet spot is somewhere in between. But I've 737 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:02.800 started to like use that as my framework to think 738 00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:05.000 about to think about health, and I think actually even 739 00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:07.800 without like theological commitments. I think there's a lot of 740 00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:10.559 social science out there that show is that actually health 741 00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:12.599 is best realized in a relationship. There's a lot of 742 00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:15.000 studies that show that, like loneliness is just a big 743 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:17.079 of a risk factor for bad health outcomes, as like 744 00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:21.800 smoking is or you know, hypertension. There are many studies 745 00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:26.480 that show that, like your relationships dramatically affect your physical 746 00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:28.920 and mental health. There's a really interesting studies synames I show. 747 00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:31.440 There's a talk that I give about health is Relationship, 748 00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:34.320 and there's a slide from the Journal of Clinical Oncology, 749 00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:36.920 which is like one of the top academic journals in cancer, 750 00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:40.119 and it shows that having a protective marriage is just 751 00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:43.039 as protective for you against bad cancer outcomes as like 752 00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:46.239 traditional chemotherapy. And people use like scientists are like that 753 00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:49.840 can't be real, and I'm like, it's real. So it's 754 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:53.039 really interesting to think about our relationships and how they 755 00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:55.599 affect our health, and so what can we do to 756 00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:59.760 be relationally oriented towards one another. Again, I mentioned mcntyre 757 00:38:59.800 --> 00:39:03.119 at the game, and I think about McIntyre here and 758 00:39:03.159 --> 00:39:05.119 sort of this view of health I think that is 759 00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:08.119 being pedled. What would McIntire say about this current view 760 00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:09.920 of health, I think that's being pedals. So health is relationship. 761 00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:11.559 I don't think is the view of health that might 762 00:39:11.639 --> 00:39:15.239 many people are operationally working under. I think what's currently 763 00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:18.639 especially in I would say the academy or secular society 764 00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:21.320 being would say sold because it's not their view of health. 765 00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:24.800 Of health is that you are most healthy or most 766 00:39:24.920 --> 00:39:30.000 flourishing as a radically autonomous, self sufficient person, free from 767 00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:33.960 any un chosen obligations, free to like self author your 768 00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.480 life and your body from moment to moment, you know, 769 00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:39.719 and first of all, like, none of us are fully autonomous. 770 00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:41.360 Autonomous a myth, and even if we could be, like, 771 00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:43.000 why would we want to be so insud I think 772 00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:45.360 a McIntyre who would say, actually, you're not, you know, 773 00:39:45.559 --> 00:39:48.880 most healthy as some pivo solo automaton like seeking to 774 00:39:48.920 --> 00:39:52.119 create your own reality. But instead your most healthy is 775 00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:56.480 is McIntyre would say, in these networks of uncalculated giving 776 00:39:56.480 --> 00:39:59.400 and graceful receiving, he would say, and I just love that. Again, 777 00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:02.039 there's this relationality there, and he would say, like, we're 778 00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:04.840 all on a scale of disability and actually you should 779 00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:08.000 be live, you know, in gratitude for the people who 780 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:09.559 take care of you when you were a dependent infant, 781 00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:11.559 and we should live with antistary gratitude for the people 782 00:40:11.559 --> 00:40:13.320 who will take care of us when we do develop 783 00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:16.199 chronic illness for advanced stage. So again there's us relationality 784 00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:18.360 built into that definition of what it means to be 785 00:40:18.440 --> 00:40:21.159 human and to be flourishing. That I really think is 786 00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:25.440 like missing in our current discourse, but needed again if 787 00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:30.199 we are going to have a type of cultural response 788 00:40:31.239 --> 00:40:36.320 and answer to the disembodiment, to the loneliness, to the suicide, 789 00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:39.360 and to some of these healthcare which I say are 790 00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:42.440 not healthcare in my farmwork practices of things likthin asia, 791 00:40:42.519 --> 00:40:44.960 physicianist suicide. The last thing I'll say about that, just 792 00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:47.719 because we're talking about like death and relationship and how 793 00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:51.440 to die and productive wondering. One of my favorite authors, 794 00:40:51.559 --> 00:40:53.760 leylah Bresco Sargent. She wrote a book this year called 795 00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:56.639 The Dignity of Dependence, which again talks about relationality and 796 00:40:56.960 --> 00:40:59.599 how dependence is actually integral to the human experience and 797 00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:01.920 not something that's a temporary embarrassment that we should try 798 00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:04.360 to like, you know, get rid of or hide. She 799 00:41:04.519 --> 00:41:07.079 says that like in the culture. When there is a 800 00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:09.639 type of error that we see about how we're living, 801 00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:12.880 let's say the adoption of physician assistant suicide or some 802 00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:18.199 other practice, she said, oftentimes the culture will hear Christians 803 00:41:18.280 --> 00:41:22.320 pointing out their no to that practice, and they'll hear 804 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:23.760 them no much lotter than our yes. So they don't 805 00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:26.159 we say no what abortion, or no a physician assistant suicide, 806 00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:28.119 or no to youth in Asia. But they're not true. 807 00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:30.840 We're saying yes to so again, I think as Christian people, 808 00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:33.400 we have something radical to say, as you said, about 809 00:41:33.400 --> 00:41:35.239 what a good death looks like, and we should be 810 00:41:35.239 --> 00:41:38.800 able to inform the narrative a bit and also live 811 00:41:38.840 --> 00:41:42.559 that out in Christian community, for people to have their 812 00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:45.119 moral imagination shaped about what a good death can look 813 00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:47.239 like and also how to live. If the last thing 814 00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:49.360 I'll say about that, my friend Charliekimosi wrote a book 815 00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:53.239 this year. It's called Living and Dying Well. It's a 816 00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:56.400 Catholic response to physician assistant killing is the subtitle, and 817 00:41:56.440 --> 00:41:59.360 he talks about, right, this isn't just a choice of 818 00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:02.360 like how to live. We shouldn't obviously have a goal 819 00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:03.960 of how to live well. But he says there is 820 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:08.440 like this you know work or this practice of like 821 00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:10.599 dying well, that also should be something that we should 822 00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:12.719 understand how to do. We shouldn't just think about it 823 00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:14.320 at the moment we're like in the units or the 824 00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:16.880 ICU with like a dying person. That is not the 825 00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:20.159 time to get your like education on the fly, when 826 00:42:20.199 --> 00:42:22.199 you're all tired and emotional. This is something we all 827 00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:24.480 should be pondering. It's not easy to do. We need 828 00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:26.360 to do it in the moral community and with discertainment, 829 00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:28.000 but it's something that we have to do if we're 830 00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:29.840 going to be able to sort of think about dying well, 831 00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:33.000 not only in our own bodies, but with the people 832 00:42:33.079 --> 00:42:34.480 around us whom we love dearly. 833 00:42:34.760 --> 00:42:38.239 You know, absolutely. I mean there's so much there. There's 834 00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:41.760 so much there. But I told you that your speech 835 00:42:41.800 --> 00:42:46.559 did matter, that people were listening. Thank you, And you 836 00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:50.320 started it by saying, we are not machines, and I 837 00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:58.239 stopped though. Amen. You also just said that studies show 838 00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:01.280 that having a good mayorge or something I'm going to 839 00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:06.199 paraphrase like marital support or familial support is a huge 840 00:43:06.239 --> 00:43:10.119 factor in cancer. I have two examples. One, as soon 841 00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:13.679 as you said we are not machines. I immediately went 842 00:43:13.719 --> 00:43:17.280 to hearing a phone call that my dad was on. 843 00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:22.480 So my dad was diagnosed about eight years ago with 844 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:27.000 stage four mantle cell amfoma. What you hear stage four, 845 00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:32.880 you think that's death, which it didn't. Was not the case. 846 00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:37.320 He's in remission, Gloria God. I remember him getting on 847 00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:41.039 the phone with a very well respected doctor that was 848 00:43:41.119 --> 00:43:43.639 a friend of a friend, and he said, Hank, you're 849 00:43:43.639 --> 00:43:46.639 going to be okay. There's really good treatment for this, 850 00:43:47.559 --> 00:43:53.480 but you need two things. Do not get a body mechanic. 851 00:43:54.199 --> 00:43:58.639 Get a healer. So the importance of a healer and 852 00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:03.480 your home. You can go anywhere in the world for treatment, 853 00:44:05.800 --> 00:44:09.199 do your best to stay close to home and your 854 00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:12.880 support network, because that is worth way more than whatever 855 00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:16.599 added advantage you might get by going to Texas or 856 00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:21.920 you know, Singapore or wherever it might have been. So 857 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:24.840 I saw that in him, and it was true, And 858 00:44:25.159 --> 00:44:28.079 I mean there are so many different ways that that 859 00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:32.280 I think that is true. And the nurses and doctors 860 00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:35.639 all said, you have no idea how big of a 861 00:44:35.639 --> 00:44:39.239 difference you are all making in his treatment by coming 862 00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:42.280 here every day, by being here with him, and the 863 00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:44.480 same thing a couple of years ago, my wife was 864 00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:48.960 diagnosed with breast cancer, and I really think that our 865 00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:54.440 relationship together going through that, Absolutely it's a huge part 866 00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:58.199 in her healing. Butlutly, and this is something that I've 867 00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:00.079 been thinking about a lot. Just you've been talking. I 868 00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:02.079 do want to get to that we are not machines, 869 00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:08.159 but getting back to the idol of health, you know sometimes, 870 00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:10.320 and I've been thinking about it the whole time we've 871 00:45:10.320 --> 00:45:12.360 been talking. And I'll send you the book. There's a 872 00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:16.280 book called The Theology of Illness by Jean Claude Larch 873 00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:20.719 and he talks so he talks about in that book, 874 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:22.880 and I'll paraphrase once again. I need to memorize it 875 00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:25.039 because I talk about it all the time. That I 876 00:45:25.039 --> 00:45:27.239 remember reading and thinking that how could that be true? 877 00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:30.880 That good health can actually be evil if it keeps 878 00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:34.480 you from right relationship with God. Yeah, And so that 879 00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:38.199 idol of health can actually be an impediment in so 880 00:45:38.360 --> 00:45:41.960 many ways. And that I bring that in the context 881 00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:46.880 of my wife that cancer. You know, somebody the other 882 00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:50.760 day and they asked, in response to a video that 883 00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:54.199 I put out there, They said, is cancer beautiful? And 884 00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:57.119 I said it can be and I don't say that 885 00:45:57.159 --> 00:46:00.960 to be cute, because I have real in the game. 886 00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:05.880 I mean, do Yeah. I don't know if I could 887 00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:09.840 just make wave a magic wand and get rid of cancer. 888 00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:12.199 I don't know, but I saw the impact that it 889 00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:15.719 had on my wife for the positive, and so many 890 00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:18.599 of the older people in our church came up and said, cancer, 891 00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:22.920 this is good, brings you closer to God because and 892 00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:27.480 this is also what I'm getting at, and I'm out loud. 893 00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:31.599 That's what I mean about ignoring health and how when 894 00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:35.320 we don't see it, it becomes mythical in a sense. 895 00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:38.079 Oh that's not going to happen to me, and so 896 00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:40.960 we cease to ask the big questions. I think in 897 00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:44.159 our modern era we're not asking the questions that have 898 00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:47.159 been age old, like even do I believe in a God? 899 00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:49.920 I think some people aren't. Even they might think about 900 00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:52.039 it for two seconds and the answer is I don't 901 00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:53.400 want to believe in a god because that I'd have 902 00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:56.440 to live differently, something along those lines, right, But I 903 00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:59.440 said a lot, tell me what comes to ye. 904 00:46:59.559 --> 00:47:02.800 I don't thinking about that. The wise person who told 905 00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:06.079 your dad, you know, don't go see like a technician 906 00:47:06.199 --> 00:47:08.800 or a body mechanic. It's one of my favorite lines 907 00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:10.960 that I'll tell our students is like, you know, you 908 00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:13.440 are not a technician taking care of a complex machine. 909 00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:15.920 You know, you are a human being taking care of 910 00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:18.760 the image bearer of God. You know. And that's a 911 00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:23.079 wildly different framework. And it reminds me of a quote 912 00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:26.880 by Abraham Heshel, the Jewish, thelogian. He said he gave 913 00:47:26.920 --> 00:47:29.559 an address to the American Medical Association, I think it 914 00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:33.159 was in the seventies. It was called patientist person. He 915 00:47:33.199 --> 00:47:35.840 said something like, you know, medicine shouldn't just be some 916 00:47:35.960 --> 00:47:40.920 kind of impersonal practice on sick bodies, but it should 917 00:47:40.920 --> 00:47:44.679 be a personal vocation on ill persons. And that's like 918 00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:46.840 such a different framework if you see your patient as 919 00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:50.880 a sick body versus an ill person. I think that's 920 00:47:50.920 --> 00:47:55.679 really fascinating and I really lament sort of. I have 921 00:47:55.719 --> 00:47:57.920 an interested narrative medicine, which is the use of language 922 00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:00.000 and stories in medicine. I think a lot about language, 923 00:48:00.199 --> 00:48:04.559 and I think a lot of particularly about language that 924 00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:10.000 depersonalizes or dehumanizes certain members of population who staging to 925 00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:13.400 be finding convenient. Like I'm very very interested in language 926 00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:17.039 or on abortion discourse, in particular. But it's one of 927 00:48:17.039 --> 00:48:20.920 those things that I think sometimes this mechanistic view of 928 00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:25.239 ourselves and our patients comes into medicine and it's really 929 00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:27.440 to the detriment of like what we're trying to do, 930 00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:30.480 and it's impossible to see your patient as a person 931 00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:33.239 with a mechanistic framework. So I think the way that 932 00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:36.639 this happens, which I've talked about before, is that you know, 933 00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:38.719 I get how that happens. I think a lot of 934 00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:42.039 young people, which is right, they come into medicine and 935 00:48:42.199 --> 00:48:44.159 they do want to take care of people, like they say, 936 00:48:44.199 --> 00:48:46.519 I want to take care of people. People matter. I 937 00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:48.559 guess saw my grandma got sick, I saw how she 938 00:48:48.639 --> 00:48:50.880 was treated. I want to do things differently, right, And 939 00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:53.400 they're very idealistic, which is good. And then they come 940 00:48:53.440 --> 00:48:58.320 into medicine and there is so much science to learn 941 00:48:58.599 --> 00:49:03.119 your receptors. You're from acology, right, like your histology, and 942 00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:06.679 what happens is you know, I always I always tell students, 943 00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:08.039 you know, think about the first time you look at 944 00:49:08.079 --> 00:49:11.159 something under the microscope, maybe when you were a kid, 945 00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:13.039 like an old fashioned microscope when you have to close 946 00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:15.000 one eye, and I say, you know, we'll wonder what 947 00:49:15.079 --> 00:49:16.639 you looked at. Maybe it was a slice of an 948 00:49:16.679 --> 00:49:19.039 onion off your mom's counter, or a drop of pond 949 00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:21.440 water or a splash of blood. You know what has to 950 00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:22.960 happen for you to look into the microscope, Well, you 951 00:49:23.039 --> 00:49:25.360 have to close one eye right, and that one open 952 00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:29.320 eye becomes like a scientific or technical or mechanic lens. 953 00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:33.000 And what you see under that microscope is totally beautiful. 954 00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:36.440 But now I always tell them, now what you pick yourself? 955 00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:40.320 Like looking up and gazing at a patient like lying 956 00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:41.880 in the bed in front of you, who's like saying 957 00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:45.119 to you, as a doctor, please help me, Like what 958 00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:47.400 do you have to do to take care of him? Well, 959 00:49:47.679 --> 00:49:49.480 you actually have to see him with both eyes open. 960 00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:51.960 Medicine has to be a both eyes open type of 961 00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:55.920 vocation to see the person in the bed as actually 962 00:49:55.960 --> 00:49:59.079 a person, not just like a bag of receptors. And 963 00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:01.960 that other eye, I would say, is your antidote to 964 00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:04.719 the mechanic eye. If she a scientific eye, it's the 965 00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:08.360 I would say, the moral eye, your religious eye, your 966 00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:11.239 ethical eye, your spiritual eye. But what happens I get it. 967 00:50:11.239 --> 00:50:13.480 You're so busy in med school because it takes so 968 00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:16.519 much time honing that scientific or technical lens, that the 969 00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:20.719 other eye becomes like atrophied or sometimes God forbid, you're 970 00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:22.719 told you better not open that eye and his work 971 00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:25.800 because that eye is nonsense, it's mythology, it's nonsense. It's 972 00:50:26.440 --> 00:50:27.920 going to get in the way of what you need 973 00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:30.440 to do. Right. So, then, but you're not going to 974 00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:32.719 see with that one eye. You're not going to see. 975 00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:35.400 You can't see that person as an image bearer of 976 00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:38.400 God with your scientific eye. You need the other eye 977 00:50:38.440 --> 00:50:40.920 to give that binocular vision to this person in front 978 00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:42.800 of you. So that person lying in the bed isn't 979 00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:47.199 just a messy organism. But you know, a person, someone's mother, sister, 980 00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:50.639 like love, her best friend like that. That's what people 981 00:50:50.679 --> 00:50:52.239 deserve to be seen in the fullness if they are, 982 00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:54.280 and you need both, like you need your scientific eye. 983 00:50:54.280 --> 00:50:55.719 I need to have my scientific eye to be a 984 00:50:55.719 --> 00:50:59.480 medicine physician, right, but I also in the fullness of 985 00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:01.480 what I do, so for me to maintain meaning in 986 00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:03.239 the work that I do, so I don't become a 987 00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:05.719 burnt out machine, and so the person isn't seen as 988 00:51:05.719 --> 00:51:07.960 a machine. I knew that second. I and medicine just 989 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:10.599 doesn't do a good job honing that eye because I 990 00:51:10.599 --> 00:51:14.880 invoke some you know, spicy questions of meaning and right 991 00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:18.880 worldview and transcending goods and the divine that medicine doesn't 992 00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:22.360 have a lot of literacy around. But yes, I have 993 00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:24.639 a very big interest in language, and I think this 994 00:51:24.760 --> 00:51:30.039 machine language is bad and it's a threat to our anthropology, 995 00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:32.320 especially as Christians that people are made in God. And 996 00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:34.119 what last thing to say about that is, I think, 997 00:51:34.159 --> 00:51:36.599 you know, there's more and more adoption of machines into 998 00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:39.760 our daily lives of some way, and I think the 999 00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:41.679 threat isn't that we're going to start to see the 1000 00:51:41.719 --> 00:51:43.760 machines as human beings, but we're going to start to 1001 00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:47.840 see ourselves as machines. Right, That's the anthropological crisis that 1002 00:51:47.920 --> 00:51:50.000 I see. So someone who cares about and writes a 1003 00:51:50.039 --> 00:51:53.800 lot about lately, like Christian anthropology, that to me is 1004 00:51:53.840 --> 00:51:56.079 the biggest thing. And I was just starting to understand 1005 00:51:56.079 --> 00:51:58.199 what that meant when I wrote that white Coat talk 1006 00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:00.960 about we are not machines. As I was coming out 1007 00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:03.400 of this idea, I've seeing myself as a machine and 1008 00:52:03.440 --> 00:52:06.360 seeing my patients as a machine, and like the way 1009 00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:09.119 that that was leading me down a bad path, not 1010 00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:11.360 only did the patients deserve to be seen not as machines, 1011 00:52:11.400 --> 00:52:13.800 but when I started to see myself as a machine, right, 1012 00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:18.119 that's that's that's a that's a disregards my own dignity. 1013 00:52:18.159 --> 00:52:21.639 Also, yeah, and you talk about how you know, task 1014 00:52:21.679 --> 00:52:27.280 completion is not care and I experienced that intimately because 1015 00:52:27.320 --> 00:52:29.440 as I got older, you know, our bodies are noisy, 1016 00:52:30.119 --> 00:52:34.519 and I'm a very totally tuned person, so you notice everything. 1017 00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:36.159 And then as I got older, I started to get 1018 00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:39.199 to become a hypochondriac. And then I said, you know, 1019 00:52:39.239 --> 00:52:42.519 the enemy is the doctor, right, and that can be 1020 00:52:42.599 --> 00:52:46.639 true because some of you in your profession are a 1021 00:52:46.679 --> 00:52:49.400 little too you know, this is it. And they failed 1022 00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:51.920 to see me as a person who I hay, these 1023 00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:56.760 problems are whatever. And I finally found a doctor who 1024 00:52:58.119 --> 00:53:00.920 he opened with. You know, I told him my whole story, 1025 00:53:01.079 --> 00:53:03.199 and I've developed type of chondria. As I get older, 1026 00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:06.559 you know, I get white coat. And he just he 1027 00:53:06.679 --> 00:53:09.320 started by saying, I'm glad you're here. And he told 1028 00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:14.800 me a fear that he has like that. I thought, really, 1029 00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:17.960 you've got that. And then you think, well, okay, somebody 1030 00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:20.519 might think that it's ridiculous. That I'm scared of X. Well, 1031 00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:22.039 he just told me that he's scared of why and 1032 00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:24.800 I thought, yeah, I'm not. Well, that's it. And and 1033 00:53:25.159 --> 00:53:27.679 we both saw each other and he just kept saying, 1034 00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:32.480 I'm glad you're here. We put too many labels on things, 1035 00:53:32.719 --> 00:53:35.599 and we went through and I still don't like going 1036 00:53:35.639 --> 00:53:40.920 to the doctor. Sure, But while some people are different, 1037 00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:42.760 my wife she's a champer. I mean, she she went 1038 00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:45.679 through everything and and and she just she always says, 1039 00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:47.639 I'm I hope that I die before you because I 1040 00:53:47.639 --> 00:53:49.400 don't want to take care of you if you're ever seen. 1041 00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:57.079 But I really, really I'm glad that you're out there 1042 00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:00.280 putting that into the universe, that the task completion is 1043 00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:03.239 not care. We are more than lab work. 1044 00:54:04.159 --> 00:54:06.639 That's right, That's right. Like I so someone I said, 1045 00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:10.039 it was very interesting. In narrative medicine, we had a 1046 00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:13.000 session with our medical students this week and it was 1047 00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:16.039 about care of veteran patients and we talked about the 1048 00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:22.519 high rate of PTSD AMONGST veterans MST, which is military 1049 00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:26.880 sexual trauma for women veterans. We talked about high risks 1050 00:54:26.920 --> 00:54:30.039 of you know, suicidality, especially the first year back we 1051 00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:34.880 talked about how there is no like lab test for trauma, right, 1052 00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:37.239 there is no scan that I can run on somebody 1053 00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:39.440 to like understand who they are or like what they've 1054 00:54:39.480 --> 00:54:42.639 been through. And so the most important I think, especially 1055 00:54:42.639 --> 00:54:44.679 in our age of like we have we have a 1056 00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:47.760 you know, pet CT and an MRI and a full 1057 00:54:47.800 --> 00:54:51.119 body scan, and we have all these like biological markers 1058 00:54:51.159 --> 00:54:53.360 like those can be helpful if we understand how to 1059 00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:58.599 use them. But still the most important tool that I 1060 00:54:58.760 --> 00:55:02.039 have for liken nderstanding what's going on with my patient 1061 00:55:02.239 --> 00:55:06.920 actually is story. You know, and read a share on 1062 00:55:06.920 --> 00:55:09.079 Who's the Mother narrative us and says right that like 1063 00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:15.000 medicine should be centered around story. It's the only way 1064 00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:18.280 that I can like take you know, when a patient 1065 00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:20.480 has a symptom or a concern or a fear, they 1066 00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:23.079 often come to see me about just being able to 1067 00:55:23.199 --> 00:55:27.360 like offload that burden and for me to absorb it 1068 00:55:27.400 --> 00:55:29.840 in story and to carry it like again, help share 1069 00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:31.960 this burden of this worry and then we can process 1070 00:55:31.960 --> 00:55:34.840 it together. But for many of these things, the only 1071 00:55:34.840 --> 00:55:36.679 way I can uncover what's happening with them and know 1072 00:55:36.840 --> 00:55:39.119 who they are and then understanding because I know who 1073 00:55:39.159 --> 00:55:40.559 they are. I mean, I've had my patience for twenty 1074 00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:42.000 five years, so I do know who they are, and 1075 00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:43.639 I know what their their goals are and what we 1076 00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:46.800 struggled with, and then I can understand like what ares 1077 00:55:46.840 --> 00:55:48.960 most to them and how we should proceed, and like 1078 00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:51.239 there's no algorithm that can tell me that, there's no 1079 00:55:51.440 --> 00:55:54.000 chat GBT that can tell me what to do, there's nothing, 1080 00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:57.119 there's no scan that tells me right, it's through stories. 1081 00:55:57.159 --> 00:56:01.639 So we cannot marginalize the importance of how medicine you 1082 00:56:02.280 --> 00:56:05.800 should be considered as like two moral agents coming together 1083 00:56:05.960 --> 00:56:09.679 in this covenant of sorts, exchanging stories and seeing each 1084 00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:13.480 other as two persons, and that if we need to 1085 00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:17.880 use some machines right as a scan or something, that's fine, 1086 00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:20.360 but they should not ever come in the way of 1087 00:56:20.440 --> 00:56:23.280 those two people coming together. So I saw I speak 1088 00:56:23.320 --> 00:56:26.079 a lot about AI lately, and there was a diagram 1089 00:56:26.119 --> 00:56:28.159 that I'll show, which I think is so disturbing. Actually 1090 00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:32.280 it's from a prestigious journal, and it shows AI as 1091 00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:34.559 like a partner in healthcare, and instead of just the 1092 00:56:34.599 --> 00:56:37.559 patient and the physician, there's like a triangle and it's 1093 00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:40.559 like the AI, the patient and the physician and it's 1094 00:56:40.599 --> 00:56:44.280 like this triangle and I was like, no, no, no, no, Like, 1095 00:56:44.639 --> 00:56:50.079 anytime you put something into that sacred dynamic, we should 1096 00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:53.639 be really sure we understand, like what is happening there, 1097 00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:56.199 because that is probably one of the most sacred dynamics 1098 00:56:56.480 --> 00:56:58.719 that there are. I would say, I mean husband and wife, 1099 00:56:58.800 --> 00:57:03.079 obviously mom and baby, but physician location is pretty sacred too, 1100 00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:04.920 and I think we need to be really careful about 1101 00:57:05.039 --> 00:57:07.920 who or what gets in the way of that because 1102 00:57:08.039 --> 00:57:11.920 that is something that is precious and we should safeguard that, 1103 00:57:12.079 --> 00:57:14.719 just like we safeguard marriage. Right. So yeah, I'm very 1104 00:57:14.760 --> 00:57:18.280 worried about, you know, sort of like. There's this piece 1105 00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:20.039 and First Things I think a few years ago that 1106 00:57:20.119 --> 00:57:24.559 I love, and it talks about the machine apocalypse, and 1107 00:57:24.599 --> 00:57:27.599 the writer talks about how, you know, I think, you know, 1108 00:57:27.679 --> 00:57:29.320 my day when we grew up and there were movies 1109 00:57:29.360 --> 00:57:34.800 about the apocalypse, it was like this big fiery, you know, explosion. 1110 00:57:34.840 --> 00:57:37.000 One day, everything just blit up right and blew up. 1111 00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:39.599 And he says something like, but what if actually the 1112 00:57:39.679 --> 00:57:44.199 apocalypse comes so slowly that we don't notice it, and 1113 00:57:44.199 --> 00:57:46.800 then it's like this chip chip chip chipping away of 1114 00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:50.239 our anthropology, and I was like, yep, that's what it is, right. 1115 00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:52.920 It starts with the machine language, and then it starts 1116 00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:56.039 by like making us have affection for machines by anthromorphizing 1117 00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:58.679 them in like movies. Then it comes with like starting 1118 00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:02.519 to see ourselves in our neighbor's machine, and then glorifying machines, 1119 00:58:02.599 --> 00:58:05.639 and the language changes and the anthropology changes, and all 1120 00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:08.280 of a sudden we have paved the way for like 1121 00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:11.440 a post human future, right, and the techno grows like 1122 00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:15.480 are winning? Right? It just becomes like the slow chipping 1123 00:58:15.480 --> 00:58:17.320 away of like what is a human person? What does 1124 00:58:17.360 --> 00:58:20.880 it need to be human? And this machine ideology is 1125 00:58:20.920 --> 00:58:24.079 I think the way that that that's happening, and I 1126 00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:26.079 think we should be very thoughtful to God against that, 1127 00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:30.679 because again, image bearers of gods are not machines, and 1128 00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:31.880 they never will be right. 1129 00:58:31.960 --> 00:58:32.840 We're not machines. 1130 00:58:33.119 --> 00:58:33.960 We're not machines. 1131 00:58:34.320 --> 00:58:38.880 So I became aware of you through your walkout, your 1132 00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:43.239 white coat walkout, and that stuck with me, and I 1133 00:58:43.519 --> 00:58:47.039 told you it's a beautiful speech. Anybody YouTube it whatever, 1134 00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:52.800 It's well worth twenty minutes, you know. I had it 1135 00:58:52.800 --> 00:58:55.039 in my head and then I I actually listened to 1136 00:58:55.039 --> 00:58:58.119 it after I contact you, I remember why I liked 1137 00:58:58.159 --> 00:59:02.159 this so much with me, but a couple of months ago, 1138 00:59:02.960 --> 00:59:04.840 you know, it just popped into my head and I thought, 1139 00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:07.639 what's she too? And I am not in your field 1140 00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:10.800 and I'm not I told you my first d was 1141 00:59:10.800 --> 00:59:14.519 in high school biology. It's not something that I generally 1142 00:59:14.800 --> 00:59:18.440 look into for fun. And I looked at it and 1143 00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:23.039 I thought, wow, that is fascinating. And I actually got 1144 00:59:23.039 --> 00:59:25.480 into science for you know, as deep as I could get, 1145 00:59:25.480 --> 00:59:27.760 which you do a good job at bringing the cookies 1146 00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:30.320 down to the bottom shelf. But I started to read 1147 00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:35.400 into your work on relational biology and it floored me. 1148 00:59:35.480 --> 00:59:39.480 I meant, this is interesting on so many different levels. 1149 00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:42.199 Could you just explain, as if you're talking to me 1150 00:59:42.280 --> 00:59:46.440 and my family here, young kids, what relational biology is? 1151 00:59:47.320 --> 00:59:49.840 Sure? And before I say that, also, just because I 1152 00:59:49.920 --> 00:59:53.159 was so lucky after the white cut walkout, that Public 1153 00:59:53.199 --> 00:59:55.960 Discourse reached out to me and offered to write up 1154 00:59:56.039 --> 00:59:59.199 my kind of written version of my talk in the 1155 00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:02.679 public domain. Is also it's also on public discourse for 1156 01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:04.679 people who are more of a reader and not a 1157 01:00:04.719 --> 01:00:07.800 listener to YouTube, and I talk is there too, Yeah, 1158 01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:13.199 So I am fascinated with relational biology, and it's it's 1159 01:00:13.239 --> 01:00:16.159 around this idea again that we are not fully alive 1160 01:00:16.239 --> 01:00:22.239 by ourselves, and that God in his own relationality. If 1161 01:00:22.239 --> 01:00:25.440 we think about trinitarian theology, but also the fact that 1162 01:00:25.719 --> 01:00:28.079 we are only known because we are sons and daughters 1163 01:00:28.079 --> 01:00:30.480 of God, and we are creative by God's purchased into relation. 1164 01:00:31.119 --> 01:00:34.360 That if God himself is relational in his person, which 1165 01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:38.079 he is number one, and if He is the creator 1166 01:00:38.159 --> 01:00:41.719 of all of our science, including our biology, then we 1167 01:00:41.760 --> 01:00:44.719 shouldn't be a surprised, I guess to say and to 1168 01:00:44.880 --> 01:00:47.760 understand that we are relational even on to the level 1169 01:00:47.800 --> 01:00:52.639 of ourselves. And I think that's so beautiful. And relational 1170 01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:57.760 biology is definitely manifest in many ways. The ways that 1171 01:00:57.800 --> 01:01:00.519 I have written about it. The most I'm most in it, 1172 01:01:00.639 --> 01:01:06.159 especially as a mother, is around the maternal fetal medicine 1173 01:01:06.280 --> 01:01:10.920 and maternal fetal biology. So the the paradigmatic example of 1174 01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:14.079 relational biology is between mom and baby and their relationship. 1175 01:01:14.119 --> 01:01:17.159 So briefly, what happens in a relation of biological constructor 1176 01:01:17.199 --> 01:01:21.920 there is that we know that early on in pregnancy 1177 01:01:23.159 --> 01:01:27.920 that baby and mom share each other's cells. So, for example, 1178 01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:31.880 the baby will send some of their cells across the 1179 01:01:31.880 --> 01:01:38.400 placenta and go into maternal circulation, and those cells insert 1180 01:01:38.840 --> 01:01:43.280 into mothers various organs and tissues and they start acting 1181 01:01:43.400 --> 01:01:47.719 like the cells around them, and like any good relationship, 1182 01:01:47.880 --> 01:01:50.480 some of the mom cells across across the placenta and 1183 01:01:50.519 --> 01:01:53.840 go into the baby. And what happens is that, you know, 1184 01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:56.119 those cells are like you know, if you think about 1185 01:01:56.119 --> 01:01:58.079 the baby cells that go into the mom, Yeah, they 1186 01:01:58.079 --> 01:02:00.760 are half mom, but they are like but also from 1187 01:02:00.800 --> 01:02:05.440 a distinct person. Yeah, the mother's immune system doesn't attack 1188 01:02:05.519 --> 01:02:08.199 those cells and actually allows those cells to integrate into 1189 01:02:08.199 --> 01:02:11.079 tissues and those cells start working like the cells around them. 1190 01:02:11.559 --> 01:02:15.760 That is like radical mutuality at like a cellular level, 1191 01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:19.360 you know. And it's one thing I think for me 1192 01:02:19.440 --> 01:02:21.400 to think about boy, you know, as a mom, I 1193 01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:24.119 if I'm out and traveling or I'm met with my boys, 1194 01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:27.239 to think about like that I have cells for my 1195 01:02:27.320 --> 01:02:30.920 boys and my body. But the fact that those cells 1196 01:02:31.679 --> 01:02:35.760 are like active and working inside me is like such 1197 01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:39.199 a beautiful like relational gift from God. So for example, 1198 01:02:39.239 --> 01:02:42.679 we know that you know, these cells have different ways 1199 01:02:42.679 --> 01:02:45.840 that they work. So for example, it's been shown for example, 1200 01:02:45.880 --> 01:02:50.360 if a woman has a cesarean section, that those cells 1201 01:02:50.360 --> 01:02:53.000 from the baby will migrate to that side of injury 1202 01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:57.800 and start making collagen with the mother's body to help 1203 01:02:57.840 --> 01:03:00.360 her heal from her wound from her sea section. Like 1204 01:03:00.440 --> 01:03:04.840 it's just amazing, you know, And you know, I think 1205 01:03:04.880 --> 01:03:07.000 again getting back to my definition of health that I 1206 01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:09.360 think is being sold that I told you about earlier, 1207 01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:13.920 that like, we are these radical automatons, radically autonomous people 1208 01:03:14.960 --> 01:03:20.239 who are solo and unencumbered. This science of what's called 1209 01:03:20.360 --> 01:03:25.239 maternal fetal microchimerism migochimerism is the presence of a distinct 1210 01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:28.360 amount of cells of a different person in someone else's body. 1211 01:03:28.639 --> 01:03:32.519 So this maternal feal microchimerism that it's called really throws 1212 01:03:32.559 --> 01:03:35.960 that radically autonomous view of ourselves and our biology up 1213 01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:39.320 on its head because in reality, actually we are not solo, 1214 01:03:39.440 --> 01:03:43.760 radical people walking around fully autonomous. But the reality of 1215 01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:46.840 biology shows us that actually many human beings are walking 1216 01:03:46.880 --> 01:03:49.280 around with fromants of other human beings in their bodies, 1217 01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:53.119 and that's radical. My favorite example of it actually is 1218 01:03:54.159 --> 01:03:57.800 there's a book called mom Genes g. E. N E. S. 1219 01:03:58.599 --> 01:04:01.559 And the book, the author talks about how there was 1220 01:04:01.599 --> 01:04:06.239 a story of a woman who's one lobe of her liver, 1221 01:04:06.480 --> 01:04:09.760 which was damn wage, was totally rebuilt by these fetal 1222 01:04:09.840 --> 01:04:13.360 cells in her body. And the story was made even 1223 01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:16.920 more poignant because the baby had been killed through an abortion. 1224 01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:21.159 And again, like it's this idea that like, you know, 1225 01:04:21.559 --> 01:04:25.280 none of us are biologically like we think of ourselves 1226 01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:28.400 these these biologically separate people, but so many of us 1227 01:04:28.480 --> 01:04:30.760 have cells in our bodies from other people. And it's 1228 01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:35.320 just a beautiful, beautiful, I think picture of the relationality 1229 01:04:35.360 --> 01:04:38.440 of God and how he designed our bodies and created 1230 01:04:38.480 --> 01:04:42.400 ourselves to be relational, not just the macro level like 1231 01:04:42.440 --> 01:04:45.559 we talked about in relationships and marriage and cancer outcomes, 1232 01:04:45.639 --> 01:04:47.679 or there have been really cool studies that show actually 1233 01:04:47.719 --> 01:04:49.960 that the most important thing that can product a person 1234 01:04:50.039 --> 01:04:53.119 from getting delirious in the hospital when they're sick, it's 1235 01:04:53.159 --> 01:04:55.280 actually a presence of a loved one at the bedside 1236 01:04:55.280 --> 01:04:58.079 more than an iPad. And technologies like the body we 1237 01:04:58.119 --> 01:05:01.920 ourselves are gift and relationally therapeutic agents in our own selves. 1238 01:05:02.119 --> 01:05:04.199 And also the level of the cell through the mom 1239 01:05:04.280 --> 01:05:06.760 and babies exchange of cells, and we think that those 1240 01:05:06.800 --> 01:05:11.599 cells actually influence later, our mother's risk of reduced to 1241 01:05:11.679 --> 01:05:14.800 risk of cancer. It's certain the brain, right, and we 1242 01:05:14.840 --> 01:05:17.840 know women's brains are changed after pregnancy. And like any 1243 01:05:17.880 --> 01:05:21.039 good relationship, the cells from the mother come into the baby, 1244 01:05:21.199 --> 01:05:23.000 and we think that these cells can be responsible for 1245 01:05:23.039 --> 01:05:26.280 spacing out of future siblings, can actually be the signal 1246 01:05:26.320 --> 01:05:29.400 for like lactation. And because the cells go back and 1247 01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:32.480 forth like that second, if the mother were to get 1248 01:05:32.480 --> 01:05:36.760 pregnant again, right, some of the cells from the baby, 1249 01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:40.559 first child, right, go back across the placenta, so siblings 1250 01:05:40.559 --> 01:05:44.679 can share cells. And you know, it creates these like 1251 01:05:44.719 --> 01:05:50.159 intergenerational cellular sharing. It's so cool to me. And when 1252 01:05:50.199 --> 01:05:52.559 I first read about this, because there's many there are 1253 01:05:52.559 --> 01:05:54.960 many articles I've written about this topic for Notre Dame's 1254 01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:56.880 Church Life Journal, but there's a lot of like PubMed 1255 01:05:57.000 --> 01:06:00.440 our scientific articles on the hard signs of beautifultural micro Marizona. 1256 01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:02.840 But there's a lot of it in like late publications 1257 01:06:02.880 --> 01:06:06.079 like The Atlantic and such. And when I started researching 1258 01:06:06.119 --> 01:06:09.840 this topic, I was like, you know, I've had I'm 1259 01:06:09.840 --> 01:06:13.440 a scientist, right, I'm a doctor. I study biology. I've 1260 01:06:13.480 --> 01:06:18.599 had four children. I never once heard about this topic 1261 01:06:18.679 --> 01:06:22.559 ever in any of my pregnancies and MOBI visits and 1262 01:06:22.639 --> 01:06:26.960 any of my scientific study. Why is that? You know? 1263 01:06:28.000 --> 01:06:30.920 And I can guess why that is, but like, that's 1264 01:06:31.000 --> 01:06:34.960 just a shame, you know, because again, thinking about stat. 1265 01:06:35.119 --> 01:06:37.480 I want to know why is that? Because when I 1266 01:06:37.519 --> 01:06:39.960 came into it, I thought, why have I never heard. 1267 01:06:39.880 --> 01:06:42.079 You hadn't heard about it either, Yeah, And I. 1268 01:06:42.039 --> 01:06:44.039 Was floored by it. I mean, there's so many different 1269 01:06:44.039 --> 01:06:47.159 directions that it can go in in terms of that's interesting, 1270 01:06:47.280 --> 01:06:52.280 that's interesting, that's very interesting, very interesting. 1271 01:06:52.920 --> 01:06:54.760 It's very interesting. I think probably the reason well, I 1272 01:06:54.800 --> 01:06:57.239 mean so I sometimes we'll give a talk to on 1273 01:06:57.239 --> 01:07:01.119 this topic, and it's probably the most don't because I'm 1274 01:07:01.119 --> 01:07:02.559 not a pastor. I want to use this to criminally, 1275 01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:05.360 but it's probably the most pastorally therapeutic talk that I 1276 01:07:05.400 --> 01:07:07.440 give because usually there's someone in the audience who comes 1277 01:07:07.480 --> 01:07:09.079 up with me after and be like, oh my gosh, 1278 01:07:09.159 --> 01:07:12.079 like I lost my baby or I lost my child, 1279 01:07:12.119 --> 01:07:14.360 and I always sense them I maybe was still with me, 1280 01:07:14.440 --> 01:07:16.800 but now I know from biology from science that they are, 1281 01:07:17.119 --> 01:07:21.280 you know. And I think that if we I think 1282 01:07:21.320 --> 01:07:24.119 we really truly in the public narrative and in the 1283 01:07:24.159 --> 01:07:27.400 scientific narrative fully acknowledged the beautiful reality of the mother 1284 01:07:27.480 --> 01:07:33.360 baby relationship. It would make it would make practices like 1285 01:07:33.440 --> 01:07:37.079 abortion harder to accept. I think the more that we 1286 01:07:37.119 --> 01:07:41.480 can marginalize the dignity of our prenatal sisters and brothers, 1287 01:07:42.119 --> 01:07:44.400 the easier it is for us to discard them as 1288 01:07:44.440 --> 01:07:46.679 part of throwaway culture. So I think the narrative is 1289 01:07:46.679 --> 01:07:50.719 just inconvenient to the academy to highlight and what happens 1290 01:07:50.719 --> 01:07:56.400 then is amazing things like pregnancy, and amazing you know, 1291 01:07:56.519 --> 01:07:59.599 other realms of our science become disenchanted, you know. I 1292 01:07:59.639 --> 01:08:01.480 know Mac Swevera is sort of the person I think 1293 01:08:01.480 --> 01:08:03.880 about when I think about this enchantment. But it's true. 1294 01:08:03.880 --> 01:08:07.159 If we start disenchanting some of the most enchanting experiences 1295 01:08:07.199 --> 01:08:10.519 of our lives, like pregnancy, that's just a real shame, 1296 01:08:10.679 --> 01:08:13.719 you know. And moms deserve to understand really what's happening, 1297 01:08:14.519 --> 01:08:16.880 you know, in their person and their bodies with pregnancy 1298 01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:20.640 and feedo. Maternal mega chimerasm is such a beautiful thing, 1299 01:08:21.319 --> 01:08:23.840 you know. So I'm glad more people are writing about it. 1300 01:08:24.279 --> 01:08:27.399 I'm glad that it's getting out there a bit, but 1301 01:08:27.479 --> 01:08:29.520 as yeah, it's it's it's again I think if we 1302 01:08:30.039 --> 01:08:32.600 if we think about though, from where this comes. It 1303 01:08:32.640 --> 01:08:34.800 comes from the Lord who designed us to be in relationship, 1304 01:08:34.880 --> 01:08:36.560 not just again at the level of our bodies, but 1305 01:08:36.640 --> 01:08:39.359 the level of ourselves. And this feedom maternal mega chimerasm 1306 01:08:39.439 --> 01:08:40.960 is just one example of that. I mean, there are 1307 01:08:40.960 --> 01:08:42.760 many of them, but I think that's such a beautiful one. 1308 01:08:43.600 --> 01:08:47.560 When it's just majestic. I mean, it really is, like 1309 01:08:47.600 --> 01:08:51.439 I said it was, it was such a treat because 1310 01:08:52.600 --> 01:08:57.319 oh ah, and then I started reading it, I almost 1311 01:08:57.439 --> 01:08:58.319 didn't believe it. 1312 01:08:58.479 --> 01:09:01.840 I think, no, I know, people think that's I made it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 1313 01:09:01.920 --> 01:09:03.159 I get you, yeah. 1314 01:09:04.960 --> 01:09:10.439 Right, pregnancy and the child, and I just I was 1315 01:09:10.439 --> 01:09:14.000 in awe. And it's It's what I say every time 1316 01:09:14.039 --> 01:09:18.520 I see an infant, you know, yeah, with her infantry. 1317 01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:24.079 I always tell them this should never become normal. We 1318 01:09:24.079 --> 01:09:28.039 should this should never become commonplace in our conception, like oh, 1319 01:09:28.199 --> 01:09:32.760 just every baby is a miracle, and in this relationship, 1320 01:09:32.840 --> 01:09:35.600 this synergy that you're talking about. Another thing that i'd 1321 01:09:35.600 --> 01:09:38.079 never heard of before I knew and I was talking 1322 01:09:38.119 --> 01:09:39.640 to my wife and she was I didn't know that either, 1323 01:09:40.600 --> 01:09:42.640 is that the placenta is the only organ in the 1324 01:09:42.720 --> 01:09:45.479 human body that's created by both by two people. 1325 01:09:47.479 --> 01:09:51.560 Yeah. Yeah, So the placenta is what's called a FETO 1326 01:09:51.680 --> 01:09:55.439 maternal organ because it's the only organ that is created 1327 01:09:55.439 --> 01:09:59.720 by two people and shared by two people. And again, 1328 01:09:59.880 --> 01:10:02.880 like with when I think about divine providence is also 1329 01:10:02.920 --> 01:10:05.920 obviously created by the Lord, but thinking about the two 1330 01:10:06.680 --> 01:10:09.239 people of the mother and baby, it's a shared organ. 1331 01:10:09.279 --> 01:10:11.319 It's the only organ that's made by two people in 1332 01:10:11.359 --> 01:10:14.399 cooperation and shared by two people. Yeah, And I sometimes 1333 01:10:14.399 --> 01:10:17.159 when I talk about I talk I like talking about 1334 01:10:17.159 --> 01:10:21.039 those Santa which is a very very like nerd niche thing. 1335 01:10:21.119 --> 01:10:24.680 But sometimes when I when I when I'm talking about it, 1336 01:10:24.720 --> 01:10:29.000 I'll use the slide of the Sistine Chapel ceiling of 1337 01:10:29.039 --> 01:10:31.680 like man reaching out for God, right and their fingers 1338 01:10:31.680 --> 01:10:34.800 are touching. That's what happens in early pregnancy actually, is 1339 01:10:34.840 --> 01:10:37.079 the mom and baby are like reaching out for each other, 1340 01:10:37.319 --> 01:10:39.680 and they're like making this placenta, which is this shared 1341 01:10:39.800 --> 01:10:42.840 organ through which they interface and belongs to both of them. 1342 01:10:43.079 --> 01:10:46.560 It's really beautiful. Again, that's part of the relational biology. 1343 01:10:46.600 --> 01:10:49.880 So sometimes I'll talk about that in conjunction with FETO 1344 01:10:49.920 --> 01:10:52.000 material microplimism. Yeah, it's really cool. 1345 01:10:52.520 --> 01:10:54.800 Well, it's cool, and it's interesting, and it's it's like 1346 01:10:54.840 --> 01:10:59.079 I said, it's majestic, and the whole concept of you know, 1347 01:10:59.159 --> 01:11:05.600 we recently experienced the miscarriage, and so I had a 1348 01:11:05.680 --> 01:11:09.479 talk about it. We actually did a podcast on it, 1349 01:11:09.479 --> 01:11:12.800 because I think that we don't talk enough about it, 1350 01:11:13.560 --> 01:11:17.239 and like and when we don't talk about it, similar 1351 01:11:17.239 --> 01:11:21.119 to the way that we don't talk about death, it 1352 01:11:21.159 --> 01:11:24.000 becomes mythological in a lot of ways, where like, you know, 1353 01:11:24.199 --> 01:11:26.520 I think you and I would both agree that at 1354 01:11:26.520 --> 01:11:30.800 the moment of conception, that's an eternal soul. And if 1355 01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:34.800 your child died two years after you gave birth to it, 1356 01:11:35.960 --> 01:11:39.399 you you you wouldn't. Oh well there goes like I'm 1357 01:11:39.439 --> 01:11:41.880 not going to tell anybody. And even to the point 1358 01:11:41.880 --> 01:11:46.119 where I mean, this was controversial for some people. My 1359 01:11:46.279 --> 01:11:50.439 parents always counted the miscarriage for sure, always well, you know, so, 1360 01:11:50.479 --> 01:11:52.880 how many kids do you have? Nine to the point 1361 01:11:52.880 --> 01:11:55.880 where when and I never did count it as a 1362 01:11:55.880 --> 01:12:00.399 sibling because I felt uncomfortable cultural my wife. It's like, 1363 01:12:00.720 --> 01:12:03.479 your parents keep saying they have this amount of kids, 1364 01:12:03.479 --> 01:12:05.800 but I'm doing the math and I don't. There's one 1365 01:12:05.840 --> 01:12:09.520 missing woman now, and I think that the way that 1366 01:12:09.560 --> 01:12:15.760 we talk about things matters and totally anthropologically what we believe. 1367 01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:20.199 Acknowledging that that child is a child, and then the 1368 01:12:20.279 --> 01:12:25.159 story that you told about boarded child healing the mother, right, 1369 01:12:25.239 --> 01:12:27.760 I think only further elucidates that reality. 1370 01:12:28.479 --> 01:12:31.239 Yeah, yeah, I mean so much there. Yes, I'm sorry 1371 01:12:31.319 --> 01:12:33.800 about the loss of your child, and I agree that 1372 01:12:34.000 --> 01:12:37.399 is one of those things about how we think about. 1373 01:12:37.920 --> 01:12:39.560 One of my main questions in medicine that I have 1374 01:12:39.720 --> 01:12:42.359 is like who do we count within our moral sphere 1375 01:12:42.399 --> 01:12:45.279 of concern? Like who is in our who is on ours? 1376 01:12:45.800 --> 01:12:47.520 You know, the group of the we, and what are 1377 01:12:47.520 --> 01:12:50.359 we based on on? And I do think so. I've 1378 01:12:50.359 --> 01:12:53.000 heard from so many women. Layelabresko, sergeant I mentioned before, 1379 01:12:53.039 --> 01:12:54.720 has talked about this and written about this, that she's 1380 01:12:54.760 --> 01:13:00.119 had several miscarriages and she does not feel like to 1381 01:13:00.159 --> 01:13:04.000 send in particular sort of counts the loss of those 1382 01:13:04.079 --> 01:13:06.319 human beings. When sometime she goes into visits and she 1383 01:13:06.359 --> 01:13:10.279 talks about her miscarriage history is anything like significant because 1384 01:13:10.279 --> 01:13:13.279 Madison oftentimes really sort of has this paradigm, well that's 1385 01:13:13.319 --> 01:13:16.000 just a clump of cells, or it's a potential person. 1386 01:13:16.079 --> 01:13:19.079 Really wasn't a full person yet or wasn't just like 1387 01:13:19.079 --> 01:13:22.479 a heavy period or you know, and actually, like so 1388 01:13:22.600 --> 01:13:27.840 many moms know that thoughts that's their baby that they lost, 1389 01:13:27.880 --> 01:13:29.439 just and said, just like if they were to lost 1390 01:13:29.479 --> 01:13:33.439 a baby two weeks postpartum. And before I was a Christian, 1391 01:13:33.479 --> 01:13:36.159 I remember hearing people say, and I've asked them sometimes 1392 01:13:36.159 --> 01:13:38.520 how many children you have? And someone we would say, well, 1393 01:13:38.960 --> 01:13:41.920 I have nine, and you know five five with me 1394 01:13:42.199 --> 01:13:43.800 and five are with the Lord. And I was like, 1395 01:13:43.840 --> 01:13:45.960 what does that mean? Like, you know, I was like, 1396 01:13:46.079 --> 01:13:48.760 that's crazy to me, right, But now I know that 1397 01:13:48.760 --> 01:13:52.720 that's true again, and again why this matters? It matters 1398 01:13:52.720 --> 01:13:56.479 a lot, right because again thinking about mourning the loss 1399 01:13:56.479 --> 01:14:00.479 of our prenatal children or postnatal children and community and 1400 01:14:00.479 --> 01:14:03.680 not having to go through that alone and normalizing these 1401 01:14:03.680 --> 01:14:05.920 topics right that are really hard, and being able to 1402 01:14:06.119 --> 01:14:09.880 shoulder the burden of infertility or pregnancy loss or miscarriage 1403 01:14:10.680 --> 01:14:14.760 with others and understanding again like there are ways to 1404 01:14:14.800 --> 01:14:18.640 do that well. But also, as you said, the spillover 1405 01:14:18.840 --> 01:14:23.159 about yes, how do we see, right a two hour 1406 01:14:23.239 --> 01:14:25.680 old member of Homo sapiens who was created in a 1407 01:14:25.800 --> 01:14:29.039 lab through IVF or how do we think about an 1408 01:14:29.079 --> 01:14:33.880 early stage miscarriage. Right. So again, if we believe that 1409 01:14:34.159 --> 01:14:37.800 which was not a religious claim, actually there's a scientific 1410 01:14:37.840 --> 01:14:40.720 claim that it's true that a new member of Homo 1411 01:14:40.800 --> 01:14:45.159 sapiens begins at fertilization, you know, then that gives a 1412 01:14:45.199 --> 01:14:47.640 lot of clarity to give us a lot of clarity 1413 01:14:48.000 --> 01:14:52.039 about ethical topics like not just miscarriage an abortion, but 1414 01:14:52.479 --> 01:14:55.720 IVF and a sister reductive technologies. So yes, the way 1415 01:14:55.760 --> 01:14:57.920 we think about things matter, and Lessie I'll say about 1416 01:14:58.199 --> 01:15:05.359 thinking about abortion and relationship in particular is that I 1417 01:15:05.800 --> 01:15:09.079 started putting that practice as someone who was militantly pro 1418 01:15:09.159 --> 01:15:13.039 choice for forty some years, and now I think about 1419 01:15:13.079 --> 01:15:15.720 abortion in a different way. But about you know, is 1420 01:15:16.600 --> 01:15:19.399 abortion health care? You know? And again putting it through 1421 01:15:19.399 --> 01:15:22.279 the frame of a right relationship, I would say, I mean, 1422 01:15:22.279 --> 01:15:23.800 there's a lot of reasons I could say that abortion 1423 01:15:23.840 --> 01:15:26.560 does not health care, but through right relationship, it's a 1424 01:15:26.560 --> 01:15:30.840 destroyer of relationships. Abortion destroys the most valued relationships that 1425 01:15:30.880 --> 01:15:34.439 there are between mother and baby, father and baby, grandparents 1426 01:15:34.439 --> 01:15:36.840 and baby society, baby, and actually the right relationship between 1427 01:15:36.880 --> 01:15:39.800 health care provider and baby in nocoherent model of health care, 1428 01:15:40.199 --> 01:15:42.600 would I say that myself, as a physician, should aim 1429 01:15:42.640 --> 01:15:44.239 directly at the life of one of those patients in 1430 01:15:44.279 --> 01:15:46.960 the room and call that healthcare. I once heard thinking 1431 01:15:46.960 --> 01:15:49.399 about health as relationship and pregnancy and abortion, that the 1432 01:15:49.439 --> 01:15:55.199 reason that society sometimes feels off and lonely sometimes is 1433 01:15:55.239 --> 01:15:57.920 that we're literally missing millions of people who should have 1434 01:15:57.960 --> 01:16:00.119 been here, but they're not because they've been aborted, and 1435 01:16:00.199 --> 01:16:02.720 we feel our absence from time to time. Again, that's 1436 01:16:02.720 --> 01:16:05.640 that health is relationship, right, So yeah, I do think 1437 01:16:05.680 --> 01:16:09.520 the way we think about, talk about, and acknowledge our 1438 01:16:09.560 --> 01:16:12.319 prenatal children matters. 1439 01:16:12.800 --> 01:16:19.600 Yes, so my mom had seven children, naturally, she's adopted others, 1440 01:16:20.199 --> 01:16:23.960 and she had one miscarriage that we know of, so 1441 01:16:24.079 --> 01:16:29.079 eighty would you say that it's true that my mother 1442 01:16:29.279 --> 01:16:33.680 still has cells from all eight of us in her. 1443 01:16:33.720 --> 01:16:36.840 Yeah, science would support that she has cells from all 1444 01:16:36.880 --> 01:16:39.319 of you guys that she carried in her body. Yeah, 1445 01:16:39.439 --> 01:16:42.840 lost or not. Yeah, miscarriage or brought to life birth 1446 01:16:43.239 --> 01:16:45.960 is not beautiful. 1447 01:16:44.680 --> 01:16:50.039 That's what I thought. This can't be true. This feels 1448 01:16:50.159 --> 01:16:54.359 like I didn't like it seems like mythology. Yeah, well yeah, 1449 01:16:54.840 --> 01:16:56.920 haven't we heard this. I mean, like I said, I 1450 01:16:56.960 --> 01:17:00.119 am not scientifically minded. So the fact that something scientific 1451 01:17:00.359 --> 01:17:02.520 like really grabs you grabbed me. 1452 01:17:02.720 --> 01:17:05.520 It's such a topic that grabs so many people, men 1453 01:17:05.560 --> 01:17:08.680 and women alike. And again for people who want to 1454 01:17:08.680 --> 01:17:10.439 read about it, I wrote about it Interurch Life Journal 1455 01:17:10.640 --> 01:17:12.560 that I love. I didn't give the top the title 1456 01:17:12.600 --> 01:17:14.800 to the topic. The editor does, but the topic the 1457 01:17:14.840 --> 01:17:19.800 piece is called you know, there are human beings carrying 1458 01:17:19.800 --> 01:17:22.319 remitts of other human beings in their bodies and specifically 1459 01:17:22.399 --> 01:17:24.680 about this topic. But yeah, it's a beautiful topic. And 1460 01:17:24.720 --> 01:17:26.560 I love what you keep saying. The word awe, I 1461 01:17:26.600 --> 01:17:29.079 think right, and I think right when we have a 1462 01:17:29.119 --> 01:17:32.039 sense of awe and wonder like that, it really is 1463 01:17:32.039 --> 01:17:34.239 a type of worship. Right, we should like be falling 1464 01:17:34.239 --> 01:17:36.399 to our knees about how beautiful that this, that this 1465 01:17:36.720 --> 01:17:40.560 is because it didn't you know, God doesn't didn't have 1466 01:17:40.600 --> 01:17:43.079 to create things this way, but he did, and we 1467 01:17:43.119 --> 01:17:46.119 should like have on wonder and beauty about how beautiful 1468 01:17:46.199 --> 01:17:49.359 these topics are. I you know, after my Christian baptism, 1469 01:17:50.359 --> 01:17:52.239 I obviously saw things in a different way. And I 1470 01:17:52.239 --> 01:17:55.079 remember going after early on after baptism, went to Grand Rounds, 1471 01:17:55.079 --> 01:17:58.319 which is our scientific conference in the Department of Medicine 1472 01:17:58.319 --> 01:18:03.680 every Friday, and it's usually a pretty dry basic science talk, 1473 01:18:04.720 --> 01:18:07.439 and uh, you know, people, you know, depending on your 1474 01:18:07.520 --> 01:18:12.079 level of interest in hard science, people's interests in these 1475 01:18:12.119 --> 01:18:14.600 topics vary, of course. But I remember going to one 1476 01:18:14.640 --> 01:18:16.079 of the topics and it was a it was a 1477 01:18:16.119 --> 01:18:19.079 basic science researcher who studied the adrenal gland and the 1478 01:18:19.159 --> 01:18:21.039 dream glands are these glands that sit on top of 1479 01:18:21.079 --> 01:18:25.039 the kidney, and his lifetime of research actually was just 1480 01:18:25.079 --> 01:18:28.760 on this one receptor on the adrenal land. And he 1481 01:18:28.960 --> 01:18:32.520 showed it like a like a picture of what the 1482 01:18:32.560 --> 01:18:35.199 sort of schematic of this receptor looked like and all 1483 01:18:35.199 --> 01:18:37.840 these other things that had to like intersect with the 1484 01:18:37.920 --> 01:18:40.880 receptor and what that receptor turned on, and that this 1485 01:18:40.880 --> 01:18:43.199 this protein that was made and this this sort of 1486 01:18:43.640 --> 01:18:48.199 sort of you know, scaffolding of like cellular sort of 1487 01:18:48.239 --> 01:18:51.560 activation that happened as a result of this receptor. And 1488 01:18:51.640 --> 01:18:54.399 it was just like this one receptor on this one 1489 01:18:54.399 --> 01:18:57.600 gland that nobody thinks about. And I honestly, someone started 1490 01:18:57.640 --> 01:18:59.720 crying in the audience, you know, and I'm like, I 1491 01:18:59.760 --> 01:19:02.840 have through so many talks like this as a Zionis 1492 01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:06.960 and just been like whatever, but this is like I 1493 01:19:06.960 --> 01:19:09.079 feel like worshipping right now. It's so beautiful and that's 1494 01:19:09.119 --> 01:19:11.560 just one receptor and you have never heard of and 1495 01:19:11.560 --> 01:19:13.439 you don't even think about and you will never know 1496 01:19:13.479 --> 01:19:15.439 if I talk about it, like what it even does. 1497 01:19:15.960 --> 01:19:20.239 And it's crazy. And I was like, oh my god, literally, 1498 01:19:20.279 --> 01:19:24.159 oh my god. You know. Yeah, so again this enchanting 1499 01:19:24.199 --> 01:19:26.520 people like, well, doesn't your faith take away I'm like, no, no, 1500 01:19:26.880 --> 01:19:29.560 that my faith has caused me to see my scientific 1501 01:19:29.640 --> 01:19:33.159 work in like technicolor. You know. Thank God. Right now 1502 01:19:33.159 --> 01:19:34.479 I have the two wings, so I'm not just the 1503 01:19:34.479 --> 01:19:37.239 one winged person put myself around in a circle. 1504 01:19:37.399 --> 01:19:40.279 Yeah, glory to God and and and so I told 1505 01:19:40.319 --> 01:19:45.319 you this is very interesting on its own. But then 1506 01:19:45.399 --> 01:19:49.399 I started thinking, wait a minute, if this is true, 1507 01:19:50.199 --> 01:19:54.640 then it gets even more interesting when you think about 1508 01:19:54.960 --> 01:19:58.520 Jesus and the relationship that he has r with his mother. 1509 01:19:59.000 --> 01:19:59.479 That's right. 1510 01:20:01.640 --> 01:20:07.239 I mean you used the word theotokos. Yeah, where did 1511 01:20:07.239 --> 01:20:08.560 that language come from for you? 1512 01:20:09.920 --> 01:20:13.359 So when I I think it was twenty seventeen or eighteen, 1513 01:20:13.399 --> 01:20:15.319 so a couple of years after my Christian baptism, I 1514 01:20:15.399 --> 01:20:17.439 was invited to be part of a group at Notre 1515 01:20:17.560 --> 01:20:21.439 Dame about their life and like human Dignity program, and 1516 01:20:21.520 --> 01:20:24.439 they at the time they would get felt like life 1517 01:20:24.439 --> 01:20:27.319 fellows together. And these were scholars from different fields, and 1518 01:20:27.359 --> 01:20:29.560 they were like I think eight of us in that cohort. 1519 01:20:29.800 --> 01:20:32.479 We came down to North Dame several times a year 1520 01:20:32.720 --> 01:20:34.399 and we just had to like work on a project 1521 01:20:34.399 --> 01:20:36.560 that affirmed life issues. And so my project was feedo 1522 01:20:36.600 --> 01:20:39.920 Maternal microcrimeras. And that's how I worked on that, you know, 1523 01:20:40.199 --> 01:20:42.119 project for like a year and was able to develop 1524 01:20:42.159 --> 01:20:45.319 it and write about it and such. It was the 1525 01:20:45.319 --> 01:20:47.079 only I think I was the only medical doctor. They 1526 01:20:47.079 --> 01:20:51.680 were like theologians and philosophers and humanitarian professors and priests 1527 01:20:51.720 --> 01:20:55.880 and people from different fields. So anyway, so I, you know, 1528 01:20:56.000 --> 01:20:58.600 had just my baptized. My theological doledge was very poor. 1529 01:20:58.960 --> 01:21:00.760 I knew a lot about science, and I was like 1530 01:21:00.840 --> 01:21:03.600 writing up this piece, and as part of our work, 1531 01:21:03.600 --> 01:21:06.199 we had like workshop the piece, you know, with the group, 1532 01:21:07.199 --> 01:21:12.760 and so I was pitching my talk and I still remember, 1533 01:21:12.800 --> 01:21:14.359 I still can remember where he was standing because it 1534 01:21:14.399 --> 01:21:15.760 also hit me like a ton of bricks. It was 1535 01:21:15.800 --> 01:21:20.119 Bill Madison, who's a theologian and he was at Notre Dame, 1536 01:21:20.159 --> 01:21:23.600 and Bill was like, Kristin, Wow, He's like, can you 1537 01:21:23.600 --> 01:21:28.039 think about the implications that this would have for right, 1538 01:21:28.399 --> 01:21:31.600 for Jesus and the Blessed Mother. And I was like, oh, 1539 01:21:31.600 --> 01:21:36.640 my goodness, right, rights, how beautiful? Right, and really again, 1540 01:21:37.000 --> 01:21:39.760 as a non Catholic person even thinking about this idea 1541 01:21:39.800 --> 01:21:43.079 of like the importance it would hold for Catholics around, 1542 01:21:43.439 --> 01:21:46.520 you know, taking in the Eucharist and the thinking about 1543 01:21:46.520 --> 01:21:50.640 the Body of Christ and thinking about the relationship between 1544 01:21:51.119 --> 01:21:54.720 the Blessed mothers, someone who's highly exalted as she should be, 1545 01:21:55.520 --> 01:21:59.560 and her son. It's really beautiful. So yeah, so you know, 1546 01:21:59.600 --> 01:22:02.760 then started thinking about this the god Bearer and the Theotokis, 1547 01:22:02.880 --> 01:22:06.640 and I was asked to write a piece specifically on 1548 01:22:06.680 --> 01:22:09.960 the theological implications is a Nobulo Jenio was like, you know, 1549 01:22:10.159 --> 01:22:11.880 sort of like with all humility, tried to do the 1550 01:22:11.880 --> 01:22:14.520 best I could with it. But by the theological implications 1551 01:22:14.520 --> 01:22:17.159 of the god Bearer or the Theotokis carrying the souls of 1552 01:22:17.239 --> 01:22:21.439 Jesus with her forever and ever, and that was written up. 1553 01:22:21.520 --> 01:22:23.319 It was so cool. It was written up actually for 1554 01:22:23.439 --> 01:22:27.479 a Christmas edition of a magazine in Spain. A couple 1555 01:22:27.520 --> 01:22:30.319 of years ago, and it was so fun to work 1556 01:22:30.359 --> 01:22:33.479 on because I really got to explore that specific dimension 1557 01:22:33.680 --> 01:22:37.000 of the blessed mother having the cels of the you know, 1558 01:22:37.239 --> 01:22:40.640 of the incarnate son Lord Jesus Christ in her body. 1559 01:22:40.720 --> 01:22:44.520 I mean, it's it's it's it's beautiful, it's amazing. And again, 1560 01:22:44.600 --> 01:22:49.880 thinking of my pre Christian bias that Christianity was a faith, 1561 01:22:49.920 --> 01:22:53.399 I used to think that was anti woman. Now understanding 1562 01:22:53.439 --> 01:22:56.640 actually that the role of women in the Bible and 1563 01:22:56.840 --> 01:22:58.560 the fact that like God didn't have to do it 1564 01:22:58.600 --> 01:23:01.359 this way, but he chose a woman to like carry 1565 01:23:01.560 --> 01:23:04.640 you know, the incarnate logos and to be born at 1566 01:23:04.680 --> 01:23:06.960 the person of Jesus Christ through through a woman. And 1567 01:23:07.039 --> 01:23:09.960 actually again as a scientist, hopefully I'm not embarrassing you, 1568 01:23:10.000 --> 01:23:12.319 but also so like through the uterus, like the Uterus 1569 01:23:12.359 --> 01:23:14.840 is like a redeemed space like held the son of God, right, 1570 01:23:14.960 --> 01:23:18.560 Like that's amazing, and like like wow, like so cool, 1571 01:23:18.760 --> 01:23:21.199 so cool. So yeah, so that's such a cool topic. 1572 01:23:21.399 --> 01:23:26.159 There is your reverent language used to describe and you say, 1573 01:23:26.520 --> 01:23:30.359 I think it's a response to uh, Catholicism a lot 1574 01:23:30.359 --> 01:23:34.079 of the time. Is this kind of anti Mary bias? Yeah, 1575 01:23:34.199 --> 01:23:37.359 she was merely a vessel. Yeah, well, yeah, I think 1576 01:23:37.359 --> 01:23:42.680 your science I mean outside of the I think I 1577 01:23:42.760 --> 01:23:48.079 anytime I watch my wife pregnant or anyone pregnant, right right, 1578 01:23:48.319 --> 01:23:53.479 there's no vessel this scenario. I mean, that's intimate, no 1579 01:23:53.520 --> 01:23:56.880 matter what I mean, no matter how how reptilian you 1580 01:23:56.960 --> 01:23:59.239 might think you are, that is an intimate and as 1581 01:23:59.279 --> 01:24:03.399 you're ey, a synergistic relationship. But then, what are the 1582 01:24:03.640 --> 01:24:06.239 theological implications? I mean, what did you say? 1583 01:24:07.039 --> 01:24:09.239 Yeah, well before before I forget on that, the thinking 1584 01:24:09.239 --> 01:24:12.199 about the vessel. I think this also is very relevant 1585 01:24:12.199 --> 01:24:15.359 to modern datascourses a bioethicist, because I've been talking out 1586 01:24:15.439 --> 01:24:19.000 lately about commercial circucy and IVF in particular. I just 1587 01:24:19.039 --> 01:24:21.760 sid to Peace published on my quarterly last month about IVF. 1588 01:24:21.840 --> 01:24:26.560 But about sometimes in those conversations you'll hear, for example, 1589 01:24:26.600 --> 01:24:30.479 if a woman is carrying a baby for another person, 1590 01:24:31.359 --> 01:24:35.000 sometimes those languages used, well, it's it's her bond, it's 1591 01:24:35.079 --> 01:24:37.600 my oven, if you've heard that before. So basically, the 1592 01:24:37.600 --> 01:24:40.159 baby is the bond the universe of the oven. Okay, 1593 01:24:40.319 --> 01:24:44.800 and again like that's not scientifically true. There actually is 1594 01:24:44.880 --> 01:24:48.000 this like crossover of the baby's cells and your cells 1595 01:24:48.039 --> 01:24:50.680 like this isn't just some like metal lead box and 1596 01:24:50.720 --> 01:24:52.640 there's like this thing in there that then you just 1597 01:24:53.159 --> 01:24:55.920 you're carrying as a vessel. Right, there's actually this interchange 1598 01:24:55.960 --> 01:24:59.439 of we're not machines there, you know. So again like again, 1599 01:24:59.680 --> 01:25:02.800 how I'm verydercenting this topic theologically but also you know, 1600 01:25:03.039 --> 01:25:06.760 biothically and practically. Like again, like this idea of this 1601 01:25:06.880 --> 01:25:09.560 sharing of cells I think really comes into our discourse 1602 01:25:09.640 --> 01:25:18.760 around IVF, surrogacy, pregnancy, but even around pregnancy, sometimes abortion discourse, 1603 01:25:18.760 --> 01:25:23.039 people will say, well, actually abortion is healthcare because you know, 1604 01:25:23.119 --> 01:25:26.880 it restores the woman's body to back what it was before. 1605 01:25:27.479 --> 01:25:29.199 And I was I actually, like, we think those those 1606 01:25:29.239 --> 01:25:31.560 cells actually you're never your body actually, thank god, is 1607 01:25:31.600 --> 01:25:33.960 never the same after pregnancy because we think these cells 1608 01:25:33.960 --> 01:25:38.000 cross very early. But getting back to your question about theology, 1609 01:25:38.359 --> 01:25:40.359 I mean, I think I just you know, there are 1610 01:25:40.399 --> 01:25:44.800 many implications for this theology. I just think again about 1611 01:25:45.039 --> 01:25:49.479 you know, the idea. Again I'm very interested and again 1612 01:25:49.520 --> 01:25:52.239 writing this piece right now about sort of the idea 1613 01:25:52.279 --> 01:25:55.399 of like thinking about Protestant theology of the body and 1614 01:25:55.399 --> 01:25:57.520 thinking about the role of the body and the body 1615 01:25:57.560 --> 01:26:00.239 is not incidental at all to Christian doc drin and 1616 01:26:00.680 --> 01:26:03.520 is central to the body. And in our current discourse 1617 01:26:03.640 --> 01:26:05.000 we have a low view of the body and we 1618 01:26:05.079 --> 01:26:07.279 privilege the mind is like the seed of the self 1619 01:26:07.359 --> 01:26:10.760 and all the implications of that whatever. But thinking about 1620 01:26:10.960 --> 01:26:16.720 Jesus's body, you know, and and and and part of 1621 01:26:16.840 --> 01:26:22.159 him being in his mother, you know is Protestants obviously 1622 01:26:22.239 --> 01:26:24.479 we don't. We don't have the same theology of Mary 1623 01:26:24.520 --> 01:26:27.319 as the Catholics do. But again, if we think about 1624 01:26:27.479 --> 01:26:29.760 from Catholic theology, which I'm not a Catholic, soy you 1625 01:26:29.800 --> 01:26:33.600 tread into this space with humility and lightly that you 1626 01:26:33.640 --> 01:26:36.720 know she is forever the theotokis like she is forever 1627 01:26:36.960 --> 01:26:39.920 the God Bearer, because you know in Christian theology she is, 1628 01:26:40.239 --> 01:26:43.319 she is alive and can interest we can you know, Christians, 1629 01:26:43.359 --> 01:26:46.880 can you know go to Mary with intercessory prayer and 1630 01:26:46.920 --> 01:26:50.880 sash and she still is carrying him. For Protestants, we 1631 01:26:50.880 --> 01:26:53.520 don't have that same theology. We shouldn't be afraid to 1632 01:26:53.600 --> 01:26:57.560 exalt the Mother of God. She is. Without her, we 1633 01:26:57.560 --> 01:26:59.640 wouldn't have our Savior in the way that we know 1634 01:26:59.720 --> 01:27:02.199 him to be, is Jesus Christ. But to think again 1635 01:27:02.319 --> 01:27:04.800 that like you know, I think every mother can relate 1636 01:27:04.840 --> 01:27:08.239 to the story and the gospel accounts of a mother 1637 01:27:08.279 --> 01:27:15.720 losing her son and about how Mary obviously did lose 1638 01:27:15.720 --> 01:27:18.720 her son in a way obviously he was resurrected and 1639 01:27:18.760 --> 01:27:21.439 overcame death. But even when you went to go to 1640 01:27:21.479 --> 01:27:23.680 a son to be with the father, that he still 1641 01:27:23.800 --> 01:27:26.119 is with her in this bodily way. And again, like 1642 01:27:26.560 --> 01:27:30.560 there's so much I think the stories of scriptures are 1643 01:27:30.600 --> 01:27:33.439 so meaningful to me just because they remind me Like 1644 01:27:33.439 --> 01:27:36.119 if I read the Psalms, I'm reading stories that people 1645 01:27:36.119 --> 01:27:39.119 have prayed over and cried over for like thousands of years. 1646 01:27:39.159 --> 01:27:43.319 That gives me this historic continuity with grief. And you know, 1647 01:27:43.399 --> 01:27:45.880 I think about women who have lost babies, are people 1648 01:27:45.920 --> 01:27:48.439 who feel distant from their children, even estrange from their 1649 01:27:48.439 --> 01:27:52.520 living children. And I think about there is nothing that 1650 01:27:52.640 --> 01:27:57.319 like the Lord doesn't understand, and that like we, we 1651 01:27:57.359 --> 01:27:59.640 are told so many stories of people who understand in 1652 01:27:59.680 --> 01:28:02.720 the scriptures, and like the blessed mother Mary, like she 1653 01:28:02.800 --> 01:28:07.720 gets maternal grief, she gets maternal separation, and also like 1654 01:28:08.039 --> 01:28:10.760 it's a beautiful reality that she, like us as a 1655 01:28:10.800 --> 01:28:13.800 human being, like had her baby with her like in 1656 01:28:13.840 --> 01:28:16.640 her body. I don't know, I just think about that 1657 01:28:16.760 --> 01:28:18.199 and just think about how it didn't have to be 1658 01:28:18.279 --> 01:28:20.560 that way, and it just helps me. Like, you know, 1659 01:28:20.600 --> 01:28:22.520 I have a high view of Mary even as a Protestant, 1660 01:28:22.560 --> 01:28:24.760 but it just again makes me think about her in 1661 01:28:24.800 --> 01:28:27.439 this way too. That just is like even I don't know, 1662 01:28:27.800 --> 01:28:30.199 more exalted And I hope as a Protestant that's okay to. 1663 01:28:30.199 --> 01:28:34.439 Say, well, that's why I asked you about the language, 1664 01:28:34.520 --> 01:28:39.479 because I tell me, I. 1665 01:28:39.399 --> 01:28:41.560 Can tell somebody who cares about language too, you might 1666 01:28:41.600 --> 01:28:45.199 have an issue with the beotokis I do, Well, that's 1667 01:28:45.359 --> 01:28:45.800 so okay. 1668 01:28:46.119 --> 01:28:49.880 You don't know my story. I grew up in a 1669 01:28:49.920 --> 01:28:55.680 Protestant family and a couple, so I think it's a 1670 01:28:55.680 --> 01:28:58.199 couple of days before my dad was diagnosed with the 1671 01:28:58.199 --> 01:29:02.119 stage fur mantle cellm FOMA. Yeah, he was chrismated into 1672 01:29:02.119 --> 01:29:07.199 the Orthodox Church. So they happened almost together, and so 1673 01:29:08.479 --> 01:29:13.399 I I subsequently have become Orthodox. And when I saw 1674 01:29:13.439 --> 01:29:16.720 that in your writing, I thought, that's not normal. 1675 01:29:17.319 --> 01:29:23.359 That's not normal. I've not and then I started, you know, googling. 1676 01:29:23.399 --> 01:29:27.159 I'm like, what is her you know, denominational background or 1677 01:29:27.199 --> 01:29:31.239 like oh yeah, like a yeah, because that's not normal 1678 01:29:31.359 --> 01:29:36.640 and I think the way that you've been discussing it 1679 01:29:36.680 --> 01:29:37.399 is refreshing. 1680 01:29:38.039 --> 01:29:41.600 Okay, hopefully it's not heretical when somebody's refreshing as the 1681 01:29:41.640 --> 01:29:46.600 code for like heresy as a non thelogian. Please, I'm 1682 01:29:46.600 --> 01:29:48.520 open to correction. If you feel like I haven't talked 1683 01:29:48.520 --> 01:29:50.920 about this properly in a theological sense. 1684 01:29:50.960 --> 01:29:54.119 Well, I'm not a theologian. I think we're all in progress, 1685 01:29:54.199 --> 01:29:57.640 because I still think that to some degree, I'm recalibrating 1686 01:29:57.680 --> 01:30:02.640 my sense of right reverence for the Theotokus or the 1687 01:30:02.640 --> 01:30:07.800 Mother of God, whatever name, because I did come from 1688 01:30:08.159 --> 01:30:14.399 a very uh let's say that she's just merely a vessel, right, 1689 01:30:14.600 --> 01:30:19.960 a center like the rest of us, nothing special and theologically, 1690 01:30:20.079 --> 01:30:23.439 and now as you're kind of explained biologically, I think 1691 01:30:23.479 --> 01:30:27.720 that that argument gets a lot more difficult to make 1692 01:30:27.960 --> 01:30:31.279 pack deserve and so that I guess that just was 1693 01:30:31.359 --> 01:30:33.680 My question is did this science change the way that 1694 01:30:33.720 --> 01:30:38.199 you thought about the Mother of God? 1695 01:30:39.520 --> 01:30:41.840 Yeah? I know, yeah, I should have actually noticed. I 1696 01:30:42.119 --> 01:30:44.319 wondered about that. I think there's an icon behind you 1697 01:30:44.359 --> 01:30:46.840 that I wondered, actually, after talking to you for a 1698 01:30:46.840 --> 01:30:49.680 few minutes, if you were orthodox, given that beautiful picture 1699 01:30:49.760 --> 01:30:53.920 behind you there's actually an Orthodox icon that is I 1700 01:30:54.039 --> 01:30:55.720 use before I get to your question, that I that 1701 01:30:55.760 --> 01:30:57.279 someone shared with me a few years ago, that I 1702 01:30:57.359 --> 01:30:59.720 use a lot in my talks is actually an Orthodox 1703 01:30:59.720 --> 01:31:04.680 eyded on. It shows actually Jesus Christ portrayed is the 1704 01:31:04.680 --> 01:31:08.359 good Samaritan, and he's literally carrying us on his shoulders. 1705 01:31:09.239 --> 01:31:13.279 And I talk about usually use that that image as 1706 01:31:13.279 --> 01:31:16.279 a way to talk about carrying burdens and how oftentimes 1707 01:31:16.359 --> 01:31:20.319 like carrying burdens in the scriptures is nowhere portrayed as 1708 01:31:20.359 --> 01:31:22.720 something pathetic or something that we should avoid, and instead 1709 01:31:22.720 --> 01:31:25.199 I think of the of Simon of Cyrene carrying the 1710 01:31:25.239 --> 01:31:27.680 cross of Jesus Christ, and then I talk about sort 1711 01:31:27.680 --> 01:31:30.039 of carrying burdens in society and how that's going to 1712 01:31:30.319 --> 01:31:31.720 have to be done if we're going to think about 1713 01:31:31.760 --> 01:31:34.960 having a cultural resistance to things like euthanasia and suicide 1714 01:31:35.000 --> 01:31:38.279 and all of this. Yes, I mean, I think, you 1715 01:31:38.319 --> 01:31:41.640 know the progressive revelation that you know we all are 1716 01:31:41.720 --> 01:31:43.760 given and that I think you know, I love the 1717 01:31:43.760 --> 01:31:47.439 story in the Gospels about how you know, faith comes 1718 01:31:47.439 --> 01:31:50.920 in these stages of sight that we sort of see. Yes, 1719 01:31:51.039 --> 01:31:55.119 I'm so thrilled that you know, because of my thank God, 1720 01:31:55.319 --> 01:32:00.600 interactions with Catholic people and Orthodox brothers and sos, and 1721 01:32:00.640 --> 01:32:03.720 my Catholic brothers and sisters, and people of different traditions 1722 01:32:03.760 --> 01:32:06.600 and scholars that have taken the time to over time 1723 01:32:06.720 --> 01:32:08.640 sort of unfold the ribbon of the faith to me, 1724 01:32:09.800 --> 01:32:12.399 and also people who have been able to help me 1725 01:32:12.520 --> 01:32:16.239 see scientific realities in the work that I do. My 1726 01:32:16.399 --> 01:32:20.279 reverence for sure of the Blessed Mother of the Theotokis 1727 01:32:20.600 --> 01:32:24.199 has only continued to increase. And I, you know, as 1728 01:32:24.199 --> 01:32:29.159 someone who has my feet in some different spaces, I 1729 01:32:29.159 --> 01:32:34.239 don't think, like you know, any tradition like owns this language, 1730 01:32:34.600 --> 01:32:37.359 you know, I think these are concepts hopefully that we 1731 01:32:37.439 --> 01:32:40.760 all can sort of speak about and with humility and 1732 01:32:41.159 --> 01:32:43.439 be able to talk about because they're beautiful. So yes, 1733 01:32:43.520 --> 01:32:47.119 to answer your question, Yes, the theology informs the science, 1734 01:32:47.159 --> 01:32:49.039 and the science to me informs of theology, and they 1735 01:32:49.079 --> 01:32:52.439 are these integrated whole of my binocular vision that's helped 1736 01:32:52.439 --> 01:32:55.640 me to see things, everything, including the Mother of God 1737 01:32:55.680 --> 01:32:58.600 in more technic color. Isn't that great and isn't that beautiful? 1738 01:32:58.640 --> 01:33:02.000 That's the way I think reference and worship shed maybe 1739 01:33:02.039 --> 01:33:06.039 should should progress right to have this continually distantensive enchantment, 1740 01:33:06.199 --> 01:33:09.399 and to not be progressively disenchanted, which I think so many, 1741 01:33:09.640 --> 01:33:11.239 so many people sadly are in that state. 1742 01:33:11.680 --> 01:33:14.199 Mm hmm. Well, and it it all, you know, it 1743 01:33:14.319 --> 01:33:18.239 happens you use the word gnostic, and I think that 1744 01:33:18.680 --> 01:33:21.560 whether it's theology or you know, whether it's somebody who's 1745 01:33:21.600 --> 01:33:25.560 actively practicing theology or pursuing it in terms of like 1746 01:33:26.039 --> 01:33:30.039 a discipline. Right, but even that, like, you know, my 1747 01:33:30.119 --> 01:33:32.800 dad was often referred to and is still referred to 1748 01:33:32.840 --> 01:33:36.600 as a theologian. And when he joined the church, a 1749 01:33:36.640 --> 01:33:39.880 good friend of ours said, you know, in the West, 1750 01:33:39.880 --> 01:33:42.720 the theologian is somebody who knows a lot about God. 1751 01:33:43.520 --> 01:33:45.800 In the East, we consider a theologian to be somebody 1752 01:33:45.840 --> 01:33:49.520 who knows God. And that's a small distinction with a bigness. 1753 01:33:49.479 --> 01:33:50.920 That's interesting. 1754 01:33:51.520 --> 01:33:55.039 And you know, I think that we can all fall 1755 01:33:55.079 --> 01:33:58.640 prey to this gnostic paradigm where we're just heads on 1756 01:33:58.720 --> 01:34:02.079 sticks and we're just a cue emulating information. And the 1757 01:34:02.439 --> 01:34:06.119 synergy that you're talking about the two wings is really 1758 01:34:06.159 --> 01:34:10.119 important because otherwise we are disenchanted, and we live in 1759 01:34:10.119 --> 01:34:11.000 an enchanted world. 1760 01:34:11.760 --> 01:34:15.000 I mean, totally totally. There's one of my favorite writers 1761 01:34:15.119 --> 01:34:18.079 right now is Mary Harrington. She wrote the book Feminism 1762 01:34:18.119 --> 01:34:22.199 Against Progress, and she talks about how medicine in particular 1763 01:34:22.319 --> 01:34:24.520 has adopted it a sort of an ideology of a 1764 01:34:24.600 --> 01:34:27.239 meat lego gnosticism. She calls it, where our bodies are 1765 01:34:27.239 --> 01:34:29.039 just meat legos and we just move around these legos 1766 01:34:29.039 --> 01:34:31.479 of meat and doesn't have to mind me, like there's 1767 01:34:31.479 --> 01:34:33.439 no man need to move around legos of meat, you know, 1768 01:34:34.000 --> 01:34:35.920 because medicine has this s low view of the body, 1769 01:34:36.000 --> 01:34:38.640 and I think society has becoming a low view of 1770 01:34:38.680 --> 01:34:41.279 the low vy of the body, and how that influences 1771 01:34:41.279 --> 01:34:44.880 our visions of healthcare, our visions of different biotleupal issues, 1772 01:34:45.119 --> 01:34:47.720 our care for ourselves, what we may engage in or 1773 01:34:47.760 --> 01:34:50.800 may not engage in. Yeah, I think nacissism is like 1774 01:34:50.840 --> 01:34:53.279 the worst form of dualism, and that dualism is infected. 1775 01:34:53.359 --> 01:34:56.279 I think some Christians way of thinking about the mind, body, 1776 01:34:56.319 --> 01:35:01.159 soul medicine obviously, and the consequences of that are real, 1777 01:35:02.000 --> 01:35:05.279 as people who encounter each other as living and dying bodies. 1778 01:35:06.039 --> 01:35:08.079 That has a real consequence. This is again, this isn't 1779 01:35:08.119 --> 01:35:10.039 just some idea, but I also I like that distinction 1780 01:35:10.119 --> 01:35:12.399 a ton that I think sometimes our faith can become 1781 01:35:12.479 --> 01:35:16.199 so intellectualized or we're so sort of like in our 1782 01:35:16.279 --> 01:35:18.199 heads that we forget to like, as the young people say, 1783 01:35:18.279 --> 01:35:20.479 gotten like touch grass, like have you stood barefoot on 1784 01:35:20.520 --> 01:35:23.159 your grass today or this week or this month? And 1785 01:35:23.159 --> 01:35:24.800 many of us would be like no, and our ancestors 1786 01:35:24.800 --> 01:35:28.359 wouldn't have even fathomed and that like many of us 1787 01:35:28.439 --> 01:35:31.560 haven't been outside for like weeks, what does that even mean? Right? So, 1788 01:35:31.600 --> 01:35:35.159 I think part of the enchantment that I think, to me, 1789 01:35:35.319 --> 01:35:37.159 I would say, I can't speak for everybody part of 1790 01:35:37.239 --> 01:35:40.000 I'm just looking out and to the creation right now, 1791 01:35:40.000 --> 01:35:42.479 and I'm like, you know, my goodness, Like part of 1792 01:35:42.520 --> 01:35:45.600 the way to protect ourselves from becoming disenchanted is like 1793 01:35:46.119 --> 01:35:48.560 getting out into creation and like putting our feet in 1794 01:35:48.560 --> 01:35:50.960 the grass and like, yeah, as someone who's talking with 1795 01:35:51.000 --> 01:35:55.079 like a lot of books by me, you know, getting 1796 01:35:55.079 --> 01:35:58.039 outside is like to God's creative order, being with his 1797 01:35:58.159 --> 01:36:01.840 people's that's where theologies at, you know, that's how we've 1798 01:36:01.880 --> 01:36:03.840 done like understand, that's how we get to that, as 1799 01:36:03.840 --> 01:36:05.840 you say, not us to know about God, but know him. 1800 01:36:06.079 --> 01:36:11.920 You know, orthodoxy small oh only exists for orthopraxy the 1801 01:36:12.000 --> 01:36:15.279 math is not the territory, and and we mistake it 1802 01:36:15.359 --> 01:36:17.520 for such way too often, like I said, even in 1803 01:36:19.359 --> 01:36:19.760 the faith. 1804 01:36:20.399 --> 01:36:22.760 Yeah, that's so true. So we have to keep ourselves 1805 01:36:22.800 --> 01:36:24.920 accountable as Christian brothers and sisters to these things. 1806 01:36:25.000 --> 01:36:29.319 Yeah that's good. So I have a couple of big questions. Yeah, yeah, 1807 01:36:30.800 --> 01:36:34.359 this is commitment to reality. Where are we most eager 1808 01:36:34.520 --> 01:36:36.920 to ignore reality? 1809 01:36:37.439 --> 01:36:39.880 I didn't even recognize that that was any of the 1810 01:36:39.880 --> 01:36:42.039 podcast until I was like logging on. I was like, 1811 01:36:42.079 --> 01:36:46.439 that's such an interesting name. You know, a commitment to reality. 1812 01:36:47.560 --> 01:36:50.680 I think that. So to get to your question, I 1813 01:36:50.720 --> 01:36:53.560 think I talk a lot about physician and conscience protection 1814 01:36:54.760 --> 01:36:57.439 and how you know, we all have a conscience that 1815 01:36:57.439 --> 01:37:00.359 we should be able to hone in sobriety, and so 1816 01:37:00.520 --> 01:37:03.159 sometimes I think there's a false idea of what conscience is. 1817 01:37:03.319 --> 01:37:06.039 That's just like this vibe that you have and it's 1818 01:37:06.079 --> 01:37:07.840 just like this you know, whim that you would have, 1819 01:37:07.960 --> 01:37:10.479 or preference like you would have for pistachio ice cream. 1820 01:37:10.520 --> 01:37:13.680 And what I say is actually your conscience. The goal 1821 01:37:13.720 --> 01:37:16.560 of your conscience is that you align your way of 1822 01:37:16.600 --> 01:37:19.079 thinking with the moral structure of reality, is what I 1823 01:37:19.159 --> 01:37:23.640 usually say. And people are like, what does that even mean? 1824 01:37:24.000 --> 01:37:25.920 You know, what is what is Kylie you're talking about? 1825 01:37:25.920 --> 01:37:29.079 That's just like some weird thing. Because why it's weird 1826 01:37:29.319 --> 01:37:33.479 right some people is some people would say that doesn't exist, 1827 01:37:33.520 --> 01:37:36.720 there is no moral structure of reality, right, because that 1828 01:37:37.119 --> 01:37:41.000 sort of assumes that there is like truth, right, that 1829 01:37:41.039 --> 01:37:48.199 there is actually some like non subjective reality and it's bizarre. 1830 01:37:48.239 --> 01:37:50.560 But there are so many people that believe that there 1831 01:37:50.640 --> 01:37:54.399 is no right, objective truth and that reality is like 1832 01:37:54.439 --> 01:37:55.800 whatever you want it to be. 1833 01:37:56.439 --> 01:37:59.640 That's the reason for the season, that's why. That's why 1834 01:37:59.680 --> 01:38:03.319 it's because I thought, I'm looking around me and there 1835 01:38:03.319 --> 01:38:05.479 are so many people that are living out of concert 1836 01:38:05.479 --> 01:38:08.279 with reality, and there's no wonder why we're seeing what 1837 01:38:08.319 --> 01:38:09.319 we're seeing in society. 1838 01:38:10.199 --> 01:38:12.239 Yeah, I mean before I answer, can I ask you 1839 01:38:12.520 --> 01:38:14.399 there must have been something in particular that you thought 1840 01:38:14.439 --> 01:38:16.560 we were like out of touch with the reality. Like 1841 01:38:16.600 --> 01:38:18.359 what when you when you thought about the title the 1842 01:38:18.359 --> 01:38:21.319 momentary reality? Like where did you think people where did 1843 01:38:21.319 --> 01:38:23.199 you think people are most out of touch with reality 1844 01:38:23.199 --> 01:38:29.920 in your space? Well, so this is the title you shows? 1845 01:38:30.520 --> 01:38:36.359 Yes, No, I mean in so many places, I guess 1846 01:38:36.760 --> 01:38:39.399 you know, I alluded to it earlier when I said that, 1847 01:38:39.520 --> 01:38:42.760 I feel like we don't. We aren't forced to ask 1848 01:38:44.079 --> 01:38:48.680 the big existential questions, right that have existed for the attorney, 1849 01:38:48.720 --> 01:38:52.079 that everybody is kind of stared in bed or laid 1850 01:38:52.119 --> 01:38:53.880 out in the field and stared up at the sky 1851 01:38:53.960 --> 01:38:57.439 and wondered why am I here? Who am I? What 1852 01:38:57.640 --> 01:39:00.439 is this? I feel like we're all just kind of 1853 01:39:01.279 --> 01:39:05.279 entertaining ourselves to death thoroughly. We're not. I mean, you 1854 01:39:05.319 --> 01:39:10.560 talk about like the concept of a concrete reality that exists, 1855 01:39:10.840 --> 01:39:14.600 whether you accept it or not, is anathema in our society, 1856 01:39:15.039 --> 01:39:17.439 you know, where it's like no, no, no, no, Dave, you 1857 01:39:17.560 --> 01:39:20.720 have your truth and Kristen has her truth and you 1858 01:39:20.840 --> 01:39:25.520 are not allowed to question it, right, And so I 1859 01:39:25.600 --> 01:39:29.680 mean the reason I stuttered, I probably shouldn't, but it 1860 01:39:29.880 --> 01:39:32.119 just one of the main things that comes to my 1861 01:39:32.279 --> 01:39:37.760 mind is the gender situation where you're forced to say, well, 1862 01:39:37.840 --> 01:39:41.840 now this is now you know, you know, my son 1863 01:39:41.960 --> 01:39:46.279 packs is now Patricia or whatever, and I have to 1864 01:39:46.319 --> 01:39:51.600 acknowledge that and not just like they can live that reality, 1865 01:39:51.640 --> 01:39:54.399 but you have to subscribe to that reality, right, right, 1866 01:39:54.439 --> 01:39:57.920 And there's this kind of strange dance that happens. But 1867 01:39:58.039 --> 01:40:00.920 really more than anything. That's where my mind initially went. 1868 01:40:01.039 --> 01:40:03.000 And I know that that's what, but that that that 1869 01:40:03.159 --> 01:40:07.720 is also I think my hesitance on this podcast says 1870 01:40:07.720 --> 01:40:12.600 a lot of because I'm thinking, well, oh, what happens 1871 01:40:12.600 --> 01:40:15.159 when this person listens to it. This person listens to 1872 01:40:15.439 --> 01:40:17.319 like I always knew you were a bigot, and now 1873 01:40:17.319 --> 01:40:21.600 you confirmed it. And and just this this inability to 1874 01:40:21.640 --> 01:40:25.600 discuss hard ideas or reality or the big ideas right 1875 01:40:25.720 --> 01:40:28.920 because it's offensive. Well you you use the phrase the 1876 01:40:28.920 --> 01:40:33.760 cream rises at the top, right, or like somebody, uh 1877 01:40:34.199 --> 01:40:37.319 said something about science to me the other day, well, 1878 01:40:37.319 --> 01:40:40.279 this is why people don't believe science, and I kind 1879 01:40:40.279 --> 01:40:42.479 of well, I said, well, and he'll see you're doing it. 1880 01:40:43.239 --> 01:40:48.600 And I thought, well, historically speaking science, science, great scientific 1881 01:40:48.640 --> 01:40:51.720 achievements have always occurred because someone said, wait a minute, 1882 01:40:52.039 --> 01:40:56.239 you know there there always took one person to challenge 1883 01:40:56.600 --> 01:41:02.560 the norm and then things change, right, And so all 1884 01:41:02.600 --> 01:41:07.600 that to say I just commitment to reality to me 1885 01:41:07.800 --> 01:41:10.119 really just means like you talk about touching grass, it's 1886 01:41:10.119 --> 01:41:13.800 like grabbing something that will not float away. Because I 1887 01:41:13.840 --> 01:41:16.680 think I just imagine that with all these you know, 1888 01:41:17.279 --> 01:41:21.840 ideas and kind of the creation of identity in any way. 1889 01:41:22.399 --> 01:41:25.159 I just see people floating off into the ether. And 1890 01:41:25.439 --> 01:41:27.640 and I want to live in alignment with reality because 1891 01:41:27.680 --> 01:41:31.640 really another word for reality is truth, and you use 1892 01:41:31.960 --> 01:41:35.039 the term capital T truth. So I want to live 1893 01:41:35.079 --> 01:41:37.039 in alignment with Christ. So this is really I mean, 1894 01:41:37.159 --> 01:41:38.079 it's commitment to Christ. 1895 01:41:38.680 --> 01:41:42.000 But I like that. I like that. I think it's 1896 01:41:42.039 --> 01:41:45.239 really like, yes, I so much. I'll say there, I 1897 01:41:45.239 --> 01:41:48.279 think you know about you were talking about sort of 1898 01:41:48.319 --> 01:41:51.159 feelings and if you sort of have this idea about 1899 01:41:51.359 --> 01:41:54.159 your feelings or a guid enough truth and no one 1900 01:41:54.159 --> 01:41:56.439 can say anything. You know. Again, it just heard Robbie 1901 01:41:56.439 --> 01:42:02.239 George who's at Princeton. He's a professor of constitutional law 1902 01:42:02.319 --> 01:42:04.840 jurisprudence there. And you know, Robbie is the one who 1903 01:42:04.880 --> 01:42:08.600 taught me the phrase like we need to be as Christians, 1904 01:42:08.600 --> 01:42:10.359 but everyone should have this goal right. We have to 1905 01:42:10.399 --> 01:42:14.359 be truth seekers and truth speakers right, not just seeking 1906 01:42:14.399 --> 01:42:17.520 it right, but also speaking it And as someone once said, 1907 01:42:17.600 --> 01:42:20.439 like telling the truth is a revolutionary act nowadays, you know. 1908 01:42:20.800 --> 01:42:22.279 And he talks about how this I listened to just 1909 01:42:22.279 --> 01:42:23.880 listen to this podcast or was an interview that was 1910 01:42:23.880 --> 01:42:25.880 done with him at a plog for our plenary. It's 1911 01:42:25.880 --> 01:42:27.840 on Spotify. But he said, like, you know, which is true. 1912 01:42:27.880 --> 01:42:29.520 I just haven't heard it in this very clear way 1913 01:42:30.880 --> 01:42:34.960 that we used to live in. You know, again this 1914 01:42:35.000 --> 01:42:37.159 is a little bit simplified, but just for our categories 1915 01:42:37.239 --> 01:42:39.600 or epochs, right that like you know, the medieval time 1916 01:42:39.680 --> 01:42:41.840 there was this sort of this age of faith, right, 1917 01:42:41.880 --> 01:42:43.760 and then the Enlightenment there was the age of reason. 1918 01:42:43.800 --> 01:42:45.359 And now he said, we're in the age of feelings, 1919 01:42:45.760 --> 01:42:48.239 and the feelings really is the way that we sort 1920 01:42:48.239 --> 01:42:51.159 of discover truth. And then there because like any sort 1921 01:42:51.199 --> 01:42:54.640 of like you know, challenge to our feelings is like 1922 01:42:54.760 --> 01:42:58.560 not had and like where that's gotten us? So interesting? There? Yeah, 1923 01:42:58.600 --> 01:43:01.760 I do think my current I mean, there's so many 1924 01:43:01.760 --> 01:43:03.079 ways in which people are And I like that you 1925 01:43:03.119 --> 01:43:05.640 said too, which I agree with. I think someone once said, 1926 01:43:05.720 --> 01:43:09.399 right that like wonder is the path to wisdom. It's 1927 01:43:09.399 --> 01:43:12.000 because we have time to sort of like have this 1928 01:43:12.199 --> 01:43:15.520 time to be like I wonder why you know I exist? 1929 01:43:15.720 --> 01:43:18.439 Or I wonder why like you know this? Or that 1930 01:43:19.039 --> 01:43:21.479 we don't have time to wonder because we're so distracted. 1931 01:43:21.520 --> 01:43:23.560 So I'm so glad you talked about like entertaining yourself 1932 01:43:23.640 --> 01:43:26.199 to death, and which gets into is all these other issues. 1933 01:43:26.199 --> 01:43:28.319 But we don't make time to productively the wonder about 1934 01:43:28.359 --> 01:43:30.920 these big topics to our own detriment. So I think 1935 01:43:30.920 --> 01:43:35.319 in my own space of medicine and bioethics, I think 1936 01:43:35.359 --> 01:43:38.079 the thing where we are most detached from reality. It's 1937 01:43:38.079 --> 01:43:41.800 a hard question, is and it sort of maybe gets 1938 01:43:41.800 --> 01:43:45.600 to a little bit to your answer, is that the 1939 01:43:45.600 --> 01:43:49.119 fact that there is human nature is something that is 1940 01:43:49.159 --> 01:43:52.520 created as such and that we've lost sense of. I 1941 01:43:52.520 --> 01:43:56.239 would say teleology. You know, that like we were created 1942 01:43:56.399 --> 01:43:59.239 sort of with this purpose or end in mind, and 1943 01:43:59.279 --> 01:44:03.159 that human nature is a thing. Mary Harrington gave a 1944 01:44:03.199 --> 01:44:06.880 talk for Hillsdale DC at hills LDC. It was the 1945 01:44:06.920 --> 01:44:08.960 First Things lecture she gave. It was on YouTube a 1946 01:44:08.960 --> 01:44:11.920 few months ago and it was published in First Things. 1947 01:44:12.199 --> 01:44:15.800 The piece is called Timophobia about how she talks about 1948 01:44:15.800 --> 01:44:18.680 how there's this phobia around Thomas Aquinas and some of 1949 01:44:18.720 --> 01:44:22.760 these thinkers in certain circles because of various biases. But 1950 01:44:22.840 --> 01:44:24.439 she talks about right, which I think is such a 1951 01:44:24.439 --> 01:44:27.319 cool phrase. She says something like human beings are not 1952 01:44:27.439 --> 01:44:32.560 just you know, Adams arranged human wise, and she talks 1953 01:44:32.600 --> 01:44:35.960 about again this idea of human nature and sort of gnosticism, 1954 01:44:36.159 --> 01:44:40.560 and so people really think it's a radically bizarre statements 1955 01:44:40.640 --> 01:44:43.439 even and can be controversial in some circles to say 1956 01:44:43.439 --> 01:44:45.840 that actually there is such a thing as human nature 1957 01:44:46.039 --> 01:44:48.840 and the givenness of our bodies. So I think thos 1958 01:44:48.880 --> 01:44:52.279 we're most out of touch with reality. And again, you know, 1959 01:44:52.399 --> 01:44:55.600 since you brought up the topic of gender, you know 1960 01:44:55.800 --> 01:44:58.000 there is just like on the topic we've tocolate today, 1961 01:44:58.000 --> 01:45:01.600 we talked about so many difficult challenges, but you know, 1962 01:45:02.479 --> 01:45:08.000 miscarriage and abortion, and we briefly touched on you know, 1963 01:45:08.000 --> 01:45:11.520 I mentioned euth in asia and sort of gender dysphoria. 1964 01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:16.359 There is so much trauma in these spaces, right, and 1965 01:45:16.760 --> 01:45:18.880 we have to have a response to the trauma. And 1966 01:45:18.920 --> 01:45:21.479 the question is like, what does a compassionate response to 1967 01:45:21.520 --> 01:45:23.680 suffering look like in these space It's not that we 1968 01:45:23.840 --> 01:45:26.319 shouldn't think this trauma is real or that well we 1969 01:45:26.359 --> 01:45:28.600 shouldn't like address these people who are hurting, because there 1970 01:45:28.640 --> 01:45:32.000 are people hurting in these spaces, and so there is 1971 01:45:32.439 --> 01:45:35.079 you know, different ways that we can do that. But 1972 01:45:35.199 --> 01:45:38.000 especially in my vocation, when our commitment is should be 1973 01:45:38.079 --> 01:45:41.119 to do no harm, I need to understand like, who 1974 01:45:41.199 --> 01:45:43.720 are what I am treating to whom I am accountable 1975 01:45:43.760 --> 01:45:46.119 and have to hone my conscience in order to align 1976 01:45:46.199 --> 01:45:48.920 itself with the moral structure of reality. So I think 1977 01:45:48.920 --> 01:45:52.680 in my situation how this comes to play in biomedicine is, 1978 01:45:53.319 --> 01:45:55.680 you know, there is not a commitment to reality, and 1979 01:45:55.720 --> 01:45:58.399 when we think about a commitment that human nature is 1980 01:45:58.479 --> 01:46:00.840 actually a thing that is given, there's a loss of 1981 01:46:00.880 --> 01:46:04.880 teleology and even this idea of conscience again just being 1982 01:46:04.920 --> 01:46:06.800 some vibe or some feeling, I think, is what is 1983 01:46:06.880 --> 01:46:08.640 risen to the top and we lose sight of the 1984 01:46:08.680 --> 01:46:11.319 fact that there is actually a moral structured reality or 1985 01:46:11.359 --> 01:46:13.520 actually there are some things that we should not be 1986 01:46:13.560 --> 01:46:16.920 engaged in because of the created nature of the world 1987 01:46:17.000 --> 01:46:19.279 in God's law, and there are some things that are 1988 01:46:19.279 --> 01:46:21.720 illicted for us. Those are the things to me, as 1989 01:46:21.760 --> 01:46:25.800 a bioethicis and a doctor that we have unhooked ourselves 1990 01:46:25.840 --> 01:46:28.279 from that have the biggest consequence in terms of divorcing 1991 01:46:28.319 --> 01:46:32.000 ourselves from the reality of the truth. And there are 1992 01:46:32.199 --> 01:46:34.800 many multifold reasons of how that comes to bear, but 1993 01:46:35.279 --> 01:46:37.319 that to me is the current concern I have. 1994 01:46:37.960 --> 01:46:42.640 Yeah, well, and you talked about doing a lot of 1995 01:46:42.680 --> 01:46:45.960 work in the sphere of AI and that was also 1996 01:46:46.079 --> 01:46:49.600 a big motivating factors that the world's changing very quickly. 1997 01:46:50.239 --> 01:46:53.520 I reference the book Future Shock. All the time they 1998 01:46:53.560 --> 01:46:55.880 thought that was future shock, and then what the seventies 1999 01:46:55.960 --> 01:47:00.840 or whatever, like we are just and so the world 2000 01:47:01.119 --> 01:47:05.199 is feeling increasingly different or unreal. So in a world 2001 01:47:05.199 --> 01:47:08.760 that's feeling increasingly unreal, what feels most real to you? 2002 01:47:09.640 --> 01:47:10.800 I think there are a lot of things that feel 2003 01:47:10.840 --> 01:47:12.880 really real to me right now. I think the thing 2004 01:47:12.920 --> 01:47:16.680 that feels most real to me there are two things. 2005 01:47:16.760 --> 01:47:22.079 One is my relationships with my husband and my boys. 2006 01:47:22.960 --> 01:47:24.960 As someone who spend a lot of time who can 2007 01:47:25.000 --> 01:47:27.560 easily become lost in her own ideas in her head, 2008 01:47:27.600 --> 01:47:29.399 I think as I get older and I'm more aware 2009 01:47:29.439 --> 01:47:31.399 of my body, I can no longer forget how real 2010 01:47:31.439 --> 01:47:33.640 it is because I feel it every day and my 2011 01:47:33.720 --> 01:47:36.319 aches and pains, my various things. And so I am 2012 01:47:36.319 --> 01:47:39.880 no longer under the illusion that I am disembodied, and 2013 01:47:39.920 --> 01:47:42.359 nor should I ever want to think that I'm disembodied, 2014 01:47:42.439 --> 01:47:45.600 as we just talked about, So I really am very 2015 01:47:45.720 --> 01:47:49.479 feeling the fact that you know, as I would believe, 2016 01:47:49.520 --> 01:47:51.880 we don't just have bodies, but we are bodies, and 2017 01:47:51.960 --> 01:47:56.479 in my embodied person, I feel really close in a 2018 01:47:56.520 --> 01:47:59.399 really good way to the reality, the tangible reality of 2019 01:48:00.119 --> 01:48:02.880 my people, my mom and dad and my husband who 2020 01:48:02.880 --> 01:48:06.880 I've known for thirty years, and my sweet boys. I 2021 01:48:06.960 --> 01:48:13.119 also feel really you know, God's God's you know, sovereignty 2022 01:48:13.159 --> 01:48:17.039 and his protection and his love feel really real to 2023 01:48:17.119 --> 01:48:20.319 me too. I you know, as we talked about earlier 2024 01:48:20.319 --> 01:48:22.399 in the show, I went through something really challenging professionally 2025 01:48:22.439 --> 01:48:25.159 a couple of years ago, and I've had some tough 2026 01:48:25.239 --> 01:48:31.079 professional challenges since that time. And I'm reminded that, you know, 2027 01:48:31.439 --> 01:48:33.600 you know, just thinking about privileging our health and our 2028 01:48:33.640 --> 01:48:36.159 safety that you know, safety, you know, isn't the absence 2029 01:48:36.159 --> 01:48:38.399 of danger, but the presence of the Lord. And I 2030 01:48:38.479 --> 01:48:42.479 really feel God and in a way that you know 2031 01:48:42.600 --> 01:48:44.880 is very real to me. I'm very thankful for that. 2032 01:48:44.920 --> 01:48:47.479 I know that that period is you know, can can 2033 01:48:47.520 --> 01:48:49.880 wax and wane from any of us, but right now 2034 01:48:50.319 --> 01:48:53.319 very thankful that that He feels really real to me. 2035 01:48:53.439 --> 01:48:55.880 So I'm so thankful for both of those, both of 2036 01:48:55.920 --> 01:48:58.720 those spaces beautiful. 2037 01:48:58.760 --> 01:49:01.760 Well, thank you so much for your time, doctor Kristen. 2038 01:49:01.800 --> 01:49:04.920 I really, I mean, we've gone over so many different things, 2039 01:49:05.399 --> 01:49:07.920 and it's just been a true pleasure. And I thank 2040 01:49:07.960 --> 01:49:09.439 God that people try to cancel you. 2041 01:49:10.680 --> 01:49:12.920 No, I'm so happy that, like you know, I think 2042 01:49:12.960 --> 01:49:18.239 of right the script overs that you know, sometimes people 2043 01:49:18.279 --> 01:49:21.000 don't mean things for like the best intentions, but God 2044 01:49:21.039 --> 01:49:23.840 will use them for good or even think about Ramsey 2045 01:49:23.960 --> 01:49:28.079 twenty eight. So I am thankful for whatever. You know, 2046 01:49:28.119 --> 01:49:31.840 the Lord has prepared for the future and I trust 2047 01:49:31.840 --> 01:49:34.359 in him. And I'm very thankful that somehow our paths, 2048 01:49:34.880 --> 01:49:37.359 you know, collided so that we could have this conversation today. 2049 01:49:37.359 --> 01:49:39.199 I hope our paths crossed in real life and in 2050 01:49:39.640 --> 01:49:42.840 a real way, that way, in body way, you know, 2051 01:49:42.960 --> 01:49:44.640 sometime in the future, and I thought that will happen. 2052 01:49:44.720 --> 01:49:48.359 So thanks forather, Wow. Thank once again, thank you for 2053 01:49:48.439 --> 01:49:49.880 joining me on commitment to reality. 2054 01:49:50.159 --> 01:49:50.560 Thank you