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No personesses 25 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:00.799 every dvoiver by loss, each can affecting play. 26 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:11.959 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 27 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:15.079 Killers in True crime History and the authors that have 28 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:22.439 written about him Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 29 00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:26.120 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 30 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:30.439 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 31 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.319 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 32 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:48.000 Good Evening. Criminal defense lawyer Lisa Peebles was taken aback 33 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:51.799 by a secretly recorded phone call and police interrogation video 34 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:56.359 that surfaced in a twenty year old kidnapping case. They 35 00:01:56.359 --> 00:01:59.599 held the stench of a cover up. She recruited in 36 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:02.079 a vest negative reporter to help unearth the truth and 37 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:06.200 exonerate Gary Thibodeaux, the man convicted in the nineteen ninety 38 00:02:06.200 --> 00:02:09.240 four kidnapping and murder of eighteen year old Heidi Allen. 39 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:15.240 Scrapped justice and a teen informant exposes the underbelly of 40 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:20.240 a system built more for finality than justice. It's the 41 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:23.240 true story of people's pursuit of new evidence against three 42 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:26.319 new suspects and her discovery that Heidie had lived a 43 00:02:26.360 --> 00:02:32.919 double life convenience store cashier and undercover informant. The sheriff's 44 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:35.000 office hid the truth about her death as the real 45 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:39.560 killers Rome Free. Peebles became a de facto prosecutor to 46 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:44.120 prove their guilt in Gary's innocence, as Heidie's family stood 47 00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:47.800 by the sheriff, who remains were likely secreted right under 48 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.560 their noses, probably inside a scrap van and ship to 49 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:55.039 a car shredder in Canada. The book that we're featuring 50 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:59.599 this evening is Scrapped Justice and the team informant with 51 00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:04.960 my Rush. Your guests, Lisa Peebles and John O'Brien, Welcome 52 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:06.960 to the program, and thank you so much for this interview. 53 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:09.120 Lisa Peebles and John O'Brien. 54 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:13.960 Thanks Dan, thank you, thank you so much. 55 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:17.439 This is an incredible story. As I mentioned, this is 56 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:26.280 an extraordinary Let's get right to your background, Lisa, and 57 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:29.759 before we talk about your background, John, just for our 58 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:34.319 audience to understand who you were before this incredible April third, 59 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:35.639 nineteen ninety four event. 60 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:37.639 Be sure. 61 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:41.960 Yeah, I'm the federal Public Defender for the Northern District 62 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:45.319 of New York and I've been working in this office 63 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:49.240 and the capacity as a defense attorney for twenty two years. 64 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:54.560 When Gary's case was brought to my attention, a colleague 65 00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:56.879 of mine had been in private practice and she had 66 00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:01.520 been representing him when new evidence servest. By that time, 67 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:04.000 I was the head of the office, so that's when 68 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:08.080 we started exploring avenues to pursue on behalf of Gary 69 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:13.560 when that new evidence came to our attention. I sit 70 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:18.560 in Syracuse, New York, and the case involving the kidnapping 71 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:22.480 of Heidi Allen happened in Oswego County, which is about 72 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:26.839 forty five minutes from Syracuse. In the Oswego County is 73 00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:29.240 located within the Northern District of New York, which is 74 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:35.639 part of the territory that our office covers. 75 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:39.199 Your background, John, Yeah, So, I. 76 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:43.839 Was a reporter for the newspaper in Syracuse for thirty years. 77 00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:46.480 I last ten years I was there. I was an 78 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:49.240 investigative reporter and one of the one of the things 79 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:54.199 I covered was federal court. So I would often harass 80 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:56.959 Lisa whenever I saw her and said, hey, you got 81 00:04:56.959 --> 00:04:59.959 any stories for me? And she was very friendly and nice, 82 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:05.319 but she often said no. But then one day she said, hey, 83 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:08.120 I have something brewing that you might you're definitely going 84 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:10.319 to know about. And it took months for me to 85 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:12.319 finally get out get it out of her about this 86 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:16.560 new evidence in the Heidilan case, which was a very 87 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:19.120 big case in not just Swego County but all of 88 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:23.000 central New York for years. 89 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:27.439 Tell us John about Easter Sunday morning, April third, nineteen 90 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:32.160 ninety four and the DNW convenience store and a person 91 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:37.680 at that store flagging down a passing deputy. Take us back. 92 00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:41.839 So, Heidi Allen was an eighteen year old cashier who 93 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:49.120 worked at the D ANDW and Easter morning customers came 94 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:52.040 in and realized that they were trying to buy their 95 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:54.879 paper or whatever items they were buying, realized there was 96 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:57.680 no clerk there, and they looked around the store, and 97 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:02.120 one man realized that there might be a problem. They 98 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:06.360 saw her keys on the counter, I believe, and then 99 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:09.839 he went outside and flagged down a passing sheriff's deputy 100 00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:15.079 who came in and then looked again for the cashier 101 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.800 for Heidi and couldn't find her. And that's when they 102 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:22.240 realized something may something untoward may have happened. 103 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:29.639 Now, how did police proceed with this, and they say 104 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:33.279 they already had somebody flag down a deputy. So how 105 00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:36.199 did the police proceed with finding out what had happened 106 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:37.079 to this woman? 107 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:41.879 Well, they pretty quickly cordoned off the area as a 108 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:46.120 possible crime scene, and then they began a search. Within 109 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:49.360 an hour and a half, they started searching in the area, 110 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:53.040 and the search grew as people in the area found out. 111 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:56.439 Her family was told that she's missing, they got involved. 112 00:06:56.439 --> 00:07:02.519 They quickly. The family did put up missing posters for Heidi. 113 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:10.519 The sheriff's office got search teams together and found no 114 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:13.399 sign of her. Her car was left there in the 115 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:19.360 parking lot, and it looked like she something must have 116 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:22.560 happened to her. They the Sheriff's office that day was 117 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:26.279 contacted by the New York State Police, which has a 118 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:30.279 lot more resources available and more experienced the death fears. 119 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:34.560 The sheriff themselves, Charles Nellis, told the state Police, we 120 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:37.519 got this, we're handling it. So the state police backed 121 00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:41.240 off and did not get involved. One thing that Sheriff's 122 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:46.240 office did not do, which most police departments would do, 123 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:48.959 and it just makes common sense. They did not set 124 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:54.240 up roadblocks anywhere that first day, So it was kind 125 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:54.959 of odd. 126 00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:02.720 M hm. Now, Lisa, how did what did police think 127 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:05.279 they discovered or what did did they discover? And then 128 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:09.720 where was their investigation leading in terms of suspects? 129 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:16.040 Almost immediately initially, they did notice a treadmark in the 130 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:19.959 near the front entrance of the store, so they did 131 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:24.319 take an imprint of the treadmark, but aside from that, 132 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:27.480 there was no real evidence to even suggest that she 133 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:30.399 was forced, that Heidi had been forcibly taken. Her keys 134 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:34.200 were on the counter, along with her purse, and as 135 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:37.559 John mentioned, her car was in the parking lot, so 136 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:40.519 they didn't have a whole lot to go on. They 137 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:45.039 set up a command center early on and the missing posters. 138 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:48.080 As John suggested, the family knew she wouldn't have run 139 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:51.519 off because she had a close relationship with a boyfriend 140 00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:54.000 who had been with her earlier that morning at the 141 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.679 store with her she had plans to meet up with 142 00:08:56.720 --> 00:09:01.639 his family for Easter dinner. They knew right away that, 143 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:05.919 you know, some something like John mentioned, sinister must have 144 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:11.200 happened or something was you know, something was definitely wrong. 145 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:17.240 But early on they had zero leads. They were really 146 00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:19.879 just scrambling trying to figure out what could have happened 147 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:21.919 to her as far as you know, as far as 148 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:30.159 the Sheriff's department was concerned. When they actually started kind 149 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:34.639 of targeting Richard Thibodeaux. He was a gentleman who had 150 00:09:34.679 --> 00:09:37.799 gone into the store and made the last purchase. But 151 00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:40.799 at the time they didn't know who made the last purchase. 152 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:43.960 They saw a purchase of two packs of cigarettes on 153 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:46.279 the register at seven point forty two. That was the 154 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:50.840 time that was on the register tape, so they had 155 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:53.679 they knew the time of the last purchase. They had 156 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:56.879 the treadmark in front of the store, and they had 157 00:09:56.919 --> 00:09:59.679 an individual who had come forward saying he was at 158 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:04.559 the and walked past a gentleman in a van, but 159 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:07.480 you know, and sort of describe he had a baseball 160 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:10.840 hat on, but didn't see anybody else in the van 161 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:15.360 or any anything of that nature. So it wasn't until 162 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:18.440 a couple weeks later where they put out a reward 163 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:23.559 for twenty thousand dollars and an eyewitness then came forward 164 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:26.919 and said, and his name was Christopher Bivens. He said 165 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:30.679 he was driving by the store and he saw two men. 166 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:38.120 One was a burly, heavy set individual taller than the 167 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:42.559 victim putting a girl in a bear hug and forcing 168 00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:46.720 her into a van, and that there was another person 169 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:50.679 who he described as possibly older, who opened the door 170 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:54.720 and put her in the van, but he didn't stop. 171 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:57.159 He kept going and he never came forward until the 172 00:10:57.240 --> 00:11:03.960 reward money went out, and he was provided a photo 173 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:06.879 of the van, and he said it was the right 174 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:09.759 style but the wrong color, and that was his first 175 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:15.720 statement to police. And he described the individual the men 176 00:11:15.799 --> 00:11:20.279 involved as being over five eleven or six foot tall. 177 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:30.279 And then they took him by Richard's van and again 178 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:34.120 he said he wasn't sure, but they told him to 179 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:37.120 go home and sleep on it, which and then call 180 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:39.080 him and let him know in the morning, because he 181 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:42.279 said maybe he was eighty percent sure. By the time 182 00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:47.240 the Sheriff's department was done showing Richard's van three or 183 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:52.159 four times to Christopher Bivens, he was then one hundred 184 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:54.399 percent sure that that was the van he saw that 185 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:57.919 day when he was driving by the DNW there is 186 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:04.879 That's how Richard became They identified him as the person 187 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:08.559 with the last purchase. But I would note that Richard 188 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:13.200 called that mourning shortly after the kidnapping, when he saw 189 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:16.720 a scroll across the television set that the convenience store 190 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.200 worker had been as missing, and he called the Sheriff's 191 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:23.159 department to identify himself as having been at the store 192 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:28.120 that morning. And it was by ten o'clock when Sheriff's 193 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:34.879 deputy Van Patten showed up to Richard Thibodeau's relative's house 194 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:38.480 where they were having an Easter celebration, where they took 195 00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:40.799 a statement from Richard, and the van was there in 196 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:44.039 the driveway, and he also showed the pack of cigarettes 197 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:46.600 that he had purchased that morning and he gave a statement. 198 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:53.279 So that's essentially how Richard became on the radar screen 199 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:57.159 of the Sheriff's department as a possible suspect in the case. 200 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:02.720 Yes, not exactly the exactly the actions of a kidnapper 201 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:04.159 to call the police and say, hey, I was. 202 00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:10.279 There right now. When is it that you find out 203 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:16.039 or when is it public knowledge or rumor that Heidi 204 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:18.919 was a undercover informant? 205 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:27.840 So early on, I was not involved in the case 206 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:29.919 at all, and what I would see as snippets, and 207 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:32.960 I was a young attorney when that when Heidi was kidnapped, 208 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:39.879 and I remembered reading something about two brothers being suspects, 209 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:46.559 and not much more was revealed other than that there 210 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:51.159 was rumors because of a report that one of the 211 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:56.720 defense lawyers for Richard Thibodeaux, which was Bill Walsh, he 212 00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:00.720 saw in a report there was a reference to Heidi 213 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:05.320 Allen being an informant and that her informant file would 214 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:09.159 be locked up in a safe location within the Sheriff's department. 215 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:13.320 And when that was brought to the court's attention during 216 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:19.960 the early stages after the Thibodeaux brothers were arrested, they 217 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:23.759 wanted to know where's this file. We want to know 218 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:26.720 this file, and they were told and it was publicly 219 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:31.080 put out there. Well, the sheriff's deputy who wrote that 220 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:33.679 was mistaken because there is no file and she was 221 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:36.360 never an informant, and that was the information that was 222 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:40.799 relaid to the defense attorneys. So that is where it 223 00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:46.879 ended that they were asserting that that was a mistake, 224 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:50.519 that she wasn't an informant and there was no file, 225 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:55.639 and for all those years that's what will believed. 226 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:01.960 Now tell us how she became a drug informant as 227 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:03.120 you discover. 228 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:09.440 Well that will be probably John, you take that part, okay, Yeah, 229 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:14.279 So she was fifteen years old and she was babysitting 230 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:18.840 for her cousin's young daughter, one year old daughter, I believe, uh, 231 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:22.480 and she went Heidi took the child with her to 232 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:27.480 a drinking party and left the child in the car, 233 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:32.080 and the police were notified and she was they were 234 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:35.639 investigating her, possibly going to charge her with dagering the 235 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:39.559 welfare of a child and you know, possibly facing charges 236 00:15:39.559 --> 00:15:44.080 in the family corps because Heidi was under sixteen. But 237 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.919 instead of that her Heidi's uncle, Russell Sturtz, who was 238 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:53.600 a town judge and a knew some of the deputies 239 00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:56.240 personally there were whose friends with them. He went to 240 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:59.080 the sheriff's office and said, look, instead of getting having 241 00:15:59.080 --> 00:16:02.159 her charge with any how about she worked as a 242 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:06.919 confidential informant for you in drug cases. And and that's 243 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:09.559 what happened. But of course that didn't come up back then, 244 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:15.039 that connection and then she that's how she started. She 245 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:19.559 was like sixteen when she started. So she then she 246 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:27.159 started handing over information about drug drug dealers in the area. 247 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:33.120 And you found that this was an unusual age for 248 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:37.279 confidential informants to be employed by police, wasn't it. 249 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:40.399 Yes, yeah, we talked to other police agencies who said 250 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:44.159 that absolutely they have never, had, never, and never would 251 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:51.000 use someone that young. It's just too dangerous. But if well, well, 252 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:56.080 the we checked the DEA standard operating procedures and on cases, 253 00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:59.679 and they said that if they if the DEA agent 254 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:04.400 ever wanted to use anyone under eighteen as an undercover informant, 255 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:08.160 they would have to get special permission and the parents 256 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:10.720 would have to be involved. And an expert I talked 257 00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:13.200 to said that if they ever did, they would be 258 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:16.799 very careful to have keep a tight rain on that 259 00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:21.400 person so that they could protect them and HEIGHTI got 260 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:25.359 none of that. And the kin Sheriff's Office, we looked 261 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:29.759 at their standard operating procedures, they had nothing about protecting 262 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:35.640 underage or other informants, and nothing about how old an 263 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:36.440 informant had to be. 264 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:42.119 Yeah. In fact, her identity as an informant was exposed 265 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:49.559 because the handling deputy and charge dropped her file, her polaroid, 266 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:57.880 her pedigree information. All of that was dis dropped in 267 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:00.720 the parking lot, ironically in the place she was working 268 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:06.240 as a convenience store cashier, so that information was picked 269 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:08.559 up from the parking lot. The Sheriff's department was called 270 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:11.839 and they retrieved those documents and took them back to 271 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.000 the Sheriff's department. But at no time was Heidi even 272 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:19.200 told that her identity had been exposed in that parking lot. 273 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:24.160 And it got out and people it became common to 274 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:27.039 those people in the community, particularly in the drug universe, 275 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:30.599 that Heidi was an informant, and she was labeled a rat. 276 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:37.680 Now you write that, well, police know this, Police know 277 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:41.920 of her role as a police informant, and they obviously 278 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:47.039 know that Van Patten, one of the officers or sheriff deputies, 279 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:50.839 dropped her information in the parking lot where she worked. Now, 280 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:56.960 despite that, how do police continue their investigation and focus 281 00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:00.279 on the Thibodeaux brothers. 282 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:03.799 Well, I'd say this too, just to be clear that 283 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:06.519 when that information about Heidi had been dropped in the 284 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:09.799 parking lot, she wasn't working there yet. It was almost 285 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:12.200 about a year and a half before she even started 286 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.880 working at the convenience store that her information had been exposed. 287 00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:19.680 So it just was kind of ironic that it happened 288 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:21.640 in the very parking lot where she would eventually wind 289 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:27.599 up working. In terms of why that information was brushed 290 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:33.279 aside the best I can gather. First of all, the 291 00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:37.079 Sheriff's Department would never want to be responsible for someone's abduction, 292 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:40.960 particularly if they were the ones that were careless or 293 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:46.799 reckless with her information. But also they were of the 294 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:50.359 opinion that they didn't really use her in the capacity 295 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:54.359 as quote unquote and informant, so therefore they weren't really 296 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:57.759 worried about the fact that they exposed her identity, which 297 00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:00.599 sort of is beside the point, because people that know 298 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:03.319 about her identity or having been signed up as an 299 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:06.920 informant aren't going to know or care in what capacity 300 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:08.920 they were using her. They're just going to know that 301 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:11.799 she's working with the Sheriff's Department. It puts her at risk. 302 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:15.279 It was kind of lost on them. They wanted to 303 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:18.200 just kind of brush it under the rug and act 304 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:21.559 as if it was not a big deal, and then 305 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:24.839 not to tell her and or her family members, including 306 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:28.000 as far as I can tell, they never told her 307 00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:30.759 uncle Russell Sturtz that they had done that either, so 308 00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:36.119 you know, in all respects it was just a real 309 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:39.599 reckless thing that they did, and then thereafter failed to 310 00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:44.079 take any actions or proactive steps to ensure her safety 311 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:45.720 or to even let her know. 312 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:48.640 Yeah, and on that point about you know that they 313 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:52.519 claimed that she never really was an informant. We have 314 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:57.519 interviews of it at least three people, her boyfriend, a coworker, 315 00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:02.079 and a close friend who said that Heidi was telling 316 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:06.440 them that she was concerned about the informing she was doing. 317 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:10.640 She was concerned about a certain dangerous sky nearby. She 318 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:13.440 was concerned the sheriff's elves wanted to use her in 319 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:19.200 more serious drugs cases, and she expressed a lot of 320 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.200 concern about that leading up to the kidnapping. So for 321 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:24.559 them to say that we never used her, these people 322 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:30.160 aren't making this up. One of them was the niece 323 00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:34.680 of the then under sheriff who later became Sheriff Mo Todd, 324 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:39.119 and she, after the kidnapping, told her uncle about Hedi's 325 00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:44.359 concerns about informing, and the sheriff, according to her, just 326 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:46.160 brushed it off. The under sheriff at the time. 327 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:52.119 Yeah, we also had a witness who we subpoened. We 328 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:55.839 had to force into court because Van Patten showed up 329 00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:00.640 and his place of employment and was sniffing around asking 330 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:03.000 if he had any information about drug dealing. Because they 331 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:05.279 had a female informant that was about to make a 332 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:08.720 big bus and this witness was quoted as saying, and 333 00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:10.319 then wham, Heidi went missing. 334 00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:13.200 Yeah, and it was he said it was in the 335 00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:15.559 New Haven area, which is right where the story is, 336 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:20.319 New Haven, New York. Yeah. 337 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:28.880 So let's get to how finally Gary and Dick Thibodeaux 338 00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:33.839 are charged for this kidnapping. Tell us, I mean, I 339 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:36.000 know we're fast forward through a lot of information, but 340 00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:39.279 how does it get to this point? And tell us 341 00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:41.880 a little bit about the actual arrest? 342 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:48.039 Lisa, you want to do it, John, go ahead? Okay, Well, 343 00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:52.519 so Lisa talks about this witness, Chris Bevans, who whose 344 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:56.279 testimony or who met whose whose statements changed a lot 345 00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:59.960 over time. But because of him, the Sheriff's off as 346 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:05.079 really focused on first Dick Thibodeaux, because they just got 347 00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:07.480 him to say basically that that was likely the ban 348 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:12.279 he saw that Vivin saw that day. So they they 349 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:18.039 Dick was driving with his brother in law one day 350 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:27.880 and the cops swarmed over him, guns pointed and arrested him. Gary. 351 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:30.880 They needed to have two people, and they found out 352 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.000 that they had a brother because Bivens said he saw 353 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:40.240 two guys, and so they didn't have enough Gary. So 354 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:44.799 what they they arrested him, Well, they picked him up 355 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:48.200 on a drug charge out of Massachusetts which was pending 356 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:53.640 against Gary and his girlfriend, Sharon Raposa. So they had 357 00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:57.359 they picked him up and had him extradited to Massachusetts, 358 00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:00.920 which is it was a misdemeanor drug charge, which lawyers 359 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:04.359 I've talked you said, that's unheard of to be extradited 360 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:08.319 for that. But they got him into a jail in Massachusetts, 361 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:13.519 and when he was released from there, they tracked down 362 00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:17.799 a couple of inmates who were near him in jail 363 00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:23.720 and got them to say that Gary had made admissions 364 00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:29.039 about about the kidnapping and he was then charged. 365 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:33.720 They were and they weren't. Yeah, and it wasn't admissions. 366 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:38.920 It was incriminating statements. It wasn't they had They didn't. 367 00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:42.599 They never said that he admitted being involved in the kidnapping. 368 00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:49.079 And the interesting part about that was these particular inmates 369 00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:52.400 were listening to Gary on the phone with his family 370 00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:56.000 trying to find out what was going on because he 371 00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:59.079 knew at that point that he was a suspect. Because 372 00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:01.680 it's it made the p papers and they were executing 373 00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:05.640 search warrants at his property and they were searching an 374 00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:09.640 old furnace with all these ashes and burn particles. So 375 00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:13.279 he was getting this information and he was relaying it 376 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:16.240 because they were trying to find out why he was 377 00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:20.079 in and he was explaining that he was targeted as 378 00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:26.279 a suspect in this kidnapping. And these two particular inmates 379 00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:31.680 thereafter were approached by sheriff's deputies after Gary and Sharon 380 00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:35.480 were released on the misdemeanor drug possession charges that they 381 00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:39.440 had pending out Massachusetts. So Gary was already home, Sharon 382 00:25:39.559 --> 00:25:42.359 was already home, and the sheriff's deputies tried to find 383 00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:47.559 out who was in the facility with Gary, and as 384 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:51.400 John mentioned, they said, he made incriminating statements like she 385 00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:55.359 they won't find her because she's Heidie's dead, or she 386 00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:58.519 was killed with a fold up army type shovel. Which 387 00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:00.880 we point out in the book was the case was 388 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:04.680 happening simultaneous with the O. J. Simpson case and the investigation, 389 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:08.519 and it was ironic because in the newspaper clippings they 390 00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:11.559 mentioned a fold up army type shovel that they were 391 00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:17.000 testing for DNA evidence, and in the O J. Simpson case. 392 00:26:17.079 --> 00:26:19.680 So then that became this army fulled up shovel that 393 00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:22.079 you know, Gary said she was hit with or something 394 00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:25.000 of that to that, you know, hinting around that that's 395 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:29.720 what was used to kill Heidi Allen. So that's how 396 00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:34.240 Gary wound up being arrested. The only evidence that they 397 00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:36.799 had there was nobody that plays Gary at the store. 398 00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:40.599 No one identifies Gary ever being there. It was just 399 00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:46.160 these two jailhouse informants who made these statements that thereafter 400 00:26:46.359 --> 00:26:50.720 provided the Sheriff's department with evidence to you know, if 401 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:52.920