WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.800 Hello, and welcome to a special episode of the JavaScript 2 00:00:08.839 --> 00:00:12.960 Jobber podcast. Today, I'm flying solo as a host, Dan Shapiro, 3 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:15.720 coming to you from Tel Aviv. But I've got plenty 4 00:00:15.800 --> 00:00:20.239 of guests with me, Ariel Schulmann, Lead Josef and de 5 00:00:20.359 --> 00:00:24.519 Viota Alush, and together we're going to have this really 6 00:00:24.519 --> 00:00:29.960 interesting discussion. I think about public speaking, speaking at conferences, 7 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:33.479 speaking at any venue where you can talk about tech, 8 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:37.679 what we think about it, how you should go about it, 9 00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:43.280 the upsides, the downsides, tips and suggestions and whatnot. I 10 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:46.200 think it's going to be a great conversation. But first 11 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:51.079 let me I'll let you introduce yourself. So ladies first, 12 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:52.439 Darrielle please go. 13 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:54.399 Liad please go. 14 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:57.039 And I'm Ariel. 15 00:00:58.679 --> 00:01:01.240 Sorry, here's my friend. I'm Al and I'm Mary. 16 00:01:01.240 --> 00:01:05.200 I'm a full stack developer at elmex I've. 17 00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:08.640 Been I think I did my first conference. 18 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:14.239 Three years ago and very passionate about it and have 19 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:18.200 a few upcoming conferences also this week this year, sorry 20 00:01:18.280 --> 00:01:25.239 not this week, and I think that's it also coming 21 00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:26.000 live from. 22 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:28.879 Theelvi Yeah, Tel Avi is the place to be today. 23 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:33.799 We are all Israeli on this podcast, so I hope 24 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:40.040 it works. Well, anyway, Leads, how about you yourself. You've 25 00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:42.560 You've given some of the best talks I've heard. I 26 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:46.079 have to say I've listened to you, for example at 27 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:50.000 the Reversing conference. You always give these amazing talks. So 28 00:01:51.319 --> 00:01:55.400 please describe yourself as in general and as a public speaker. 29 00:01:55.680 --> 00:01:58.840 Yeah, so, first of all, yeah, thank you. I'm lead. 30 00:01:58.879 --> 00:02:05.560 I'm currently a principal engineering Shopify. I've been in companies 31 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:08.800 like Douda. I've been a consultant to too many companies, 32 00:02:08.840 --> 00:02:12.840 and one of my patients is public speaking and specifically 33 00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:16.719 tech public speaking. I think I gave my I gave 34 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:19.840 my first talk at the conference about six years ago, 35 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:22.479 and it started. I gave talks and meetups before that 36 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:28.080 and ever since. I'm trying to give really entertaining talsic conferences. 37 00:02:28.120 --> 00:02:31.960 So we'll probably dive into that later. And yeah, added 38 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:34.800 than that, I am also coming like from Tel Aviv 39 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:39.360 right now, and again, public sticking is one of my hobbies. 40 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:40.280 So I'm looking forward. 41 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:45.680 To any any upcoming talk conferences that you scheduled to 42 00:02:45.719 --> 00:02:46.280 speak at. 43 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:49.280 There are there are a few, actually this year. I'm 44 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:52.719 in the content committee of a lot of conferences, and 45 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:57.960 there are also a few meetups and private company lectures 46 00:02:57.960 --> 00:03:00.240 that I'm giving in the in the coming months. 47 00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:08.240 Oh we don't count tails. Yeah, okay, cool and a viata. 48 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:08.919 How about you. 49 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:12.240 I'm Avatar. I'm a software engineer at Meta for the 50 00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:16.039 past five years or so a little bit more, and 51 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:20.360 also a public speaker. Been speaking in conferences on and 52 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:24.039 off for the past six years, almost six years. First 53 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:28.599 conference was in twenty nineteen. You mentioned Reversing conference, so 54 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:30.639 that was the first one I spoke. I spoke at 55 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:34.080 Reversing twenty nineteen, so yeah, that's pretty cool. And I 56 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:35.919 also have a few upcoming this year as well. 57 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:40.800 That's nice. So also I'll introduce myself as a speaker. 58 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:43.639 I'm older than all of you, so I've been speaking 59 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:49.639 for longer together. Yeah, not quite, not quite that old, 60 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:53.520 I don't think. I think I spoke at a conference 61 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:57.360 for the first time approximately twenty years ago, probably before 62 00:03:57.520 --> 00:03:58.120 Yell was born. 63 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:02.000 Um, I was starting elementary school. 64 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:09.199 I've I'm currently principal engineer at some Sense. I also 65 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:15.639 really enjoy public speaking. This year, I've got three upcoming talks. 66 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:20.759 I'll be speaking at JS Heroes in Romania in about 67 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:25.000 a month, and I'm also speaking at React next and 68 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:28.800 at no TLV two conferences here in Tel Aviv, and 69 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:32.439 I've got some submitted cfps, so you know, keeping my 70 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:37.879 finger crossed for some additional talks. We will see anyway. 71 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:41.040 So now that we've all introduced ourselves and we can 72 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:46.519 start talking about, you know, conference speaking specifically, I think 73 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:49.040 the first question that I want to post to you 74 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:54.279 and feel free to answer in whatever order is why 75 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:58.839 why is it that you want to speak at conferences 76 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:01.920 that you know you submit to? The conference goes through 77 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:04.439 the whole challenge of coming up with the talk, what's 78 00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:06.360 the upside? Why do you actually do it? 79 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:11.240 It goes first, I can go. I can go because 80 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:17.120 it's pretty simple. So before even becoming a public speaker, 81 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:18.800 I mean, I wanted to be a public speaker for 82 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:21.759 a long time. But one of the things that I 83 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:24.519 enjoy doing is working on open source projects. I have 84 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:27.920 a bunch of open source projects, and I always come 85 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:30.199 up with more, and it's usually I even spoke about 86 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:33.279 one of those here on the podcast last year, I think. 87 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:36.560 And every time we'll working on libraries and tools for 88 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:40.879 other developed developers, I come up with the challenges that 89 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:45.319 are non trivial things that the everyday developers don't always 90 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:48.439 face because they're lower level or they come from a 91 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:52.680 different paradigm from a product developer, because I build tools 92 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:56.879 and not products, and sometimes I need to find special 93 00:05:56.920 --> 00:06:00.839 solutions in genius solutions and sometimes even break the rules. 94 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:05.000 And what I like doing is take the audience with 95 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:08.879 me on a journey of like a detective story, solving 96 00:06:08.920 --> 00:06:12.480 the same problem that I did, and seeing them experience 97 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:15.839 the same development and learning journey that I went through. 98 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:20.040 Is some of the most empowerant things that I enjoy 99 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:22.040 doing is as a public speaker. 100 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:27.680 So I'm going to take AJ's role a little bit 101 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:29.360 in the sense that I'm going to push back a 102 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:32.720 little bit on what you just said, because what you 103 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:36.680 described to an extent you kind of corrected at the end, 104 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:40.439 But to an extent, you described the value that your 105 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:45.360 audience gets from your talk. But I'm actually asking a 106 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:49.040 different question. I'm asking about the value that you derive 107 00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:53.920 from giving the talk. What is it about public speaking? 108 00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:57.000 You know, you do it at the end of the day, 109 00:06:57.040 --> 00:06:58.959 We do it for us. I mean, you know, we 110 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:02.319 obviously like to share. We want to see the industry 111 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:04.759 move forward. If we can help people that's great, but 112 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:08.279 you know, we let's be honest, we do it for us. 113 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:13.800 So what is it about giving public talks that is 114 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:14.680 enjoyable to you? 115 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:22.879 Of course I do it for the traveling accommodation, no more. Seriously, 116 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:26.480 it is something that of course I do talk about 117 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:31.959 my open source projects, mostly to gain attraction to those projects, 118 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:36.959 to gain visibility to projects, but I also like to 119 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:40.959 educate the audience about new ways of solving issues. It's 120 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:43.720 not just for them, it's for me. It's to get 121 00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:47.519 some sort of validation that the things that I do 122 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:49.720 and the things that I come up with actually work 123 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:53.439 and are interesting and are valuable to other people other 124 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:58.120 than just me. So it is kind of both cool. 125 00:07:58.279 --> 00:08:01.959 So in a sense, it's like the value that you 126 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:05.040 derive from doing those open source projects in a sense 127 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:12.439 that you like to share. Basically, yes, cool, how about you, earliad? 128 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:14.040 What's in it for you? 129 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:19.279 So? I actually really like that this is the first question, 130 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:24.279 because that's, like, I think, the hardest one. But I 131 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:28.000 I used to I really like giving talks, not just 132 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:33.200 on tech, even since I was in high school. Like 133 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:36.519 I'm standing in front of an audience and speaking about 134 00:08:36.519 --> 00:08:38.559 something that's also something that I did in the in 135 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:42.639 the military a little bit. And I think that I 136 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:47.960 noticed that I really enjoy seeing this aha moment in 137 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:50.919 the eyes of the audience when I try to tell 138 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:54.799 them about things that that are new to them or 139 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:57.559 things that I did that all of a sudden they 140 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:00.519 look at it in a different way, and that that 141 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:03.080 that doesn't the exact moments that I'm looking for, whether 142 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:06.720 I'm speaking in a room of fifty people or two 143 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:09.879 thousand people. So I think that's like the high that 144 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:12.679 I'm getting from standing standing. 145 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:15.639 And yeah, it is a rush, I agree. 146 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:19.159 And so so that's that's one thing that's what's in 147 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:23.320 it for me. And I think I used to refrain 148 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:26.480 from even submitting to conferences for a long time. And 149 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:29.720 then I heard this kind of someone like saying that 150 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:32.559 someone told me because I thought I had nothing interesting 151 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:35.759 to say because everybody knows everything. But then someone told me, 152 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:39.039 I can bet that you did in the past year, 153 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:43.080 you did at least five things that no one else did, 154 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:45.080 like no one that you can you can talk about 155 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:45.720 no one else did. 156 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:48.679 You're jumping the gun on a future question of mine. 157 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:52.080 So let's put that aside for a minute. I mostly 158 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:55.120 want to, So I want to concentrate less on what 159 00:09:55.159 --> 00:09:57.360 it is that you decide to talk about or the 160 00:09:57.399 --> 00:10:01.600 topics you bring to the table. I'm again more focusing 161 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:06.840 in this question on the value that we derive from 162 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:08.080 public speaking. 163 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:12.039 Yeah, so I'll just I'll end up by saying that 164 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:16.600 obviously there's the value of putting myself out there and 165 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:21.639 making myself a little bit of content. It's not content expert, 166 00:10:21.720 --> 00:10:25.879 but someone who speaks about react to speaks about those 167 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:29.120 kinds of things, And like Kevital said, when you build, 168 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:31.639 when you build a talk, you have to really dive 169 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:34.960 into things, right to explain to explain it to someone 170 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:38.919 in thirty minutes, you have to know it very deeply. 171 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:42.240 So that's part of the value that I derive from it, 172 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:47.720 of understanding the topic really well and also being being 173 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:50.120 the person that understands the topic really well so they 174 00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:51.720 can talk about it. 175 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:56.200 Oh, I totally agree with you. I can get the 176 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:59.480 same value from talks also from this podcast. By the way, 177 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:04.519 that when you need to speak intelligently about the topic, 178 00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:07.720 it requires you to learn it, to understand it, to 179 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:12.000 actually be able to articulate it means that you have 180 00:11:12.200 --> 00:11:14.840 to internalize at first, so it's a great way of 181 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:18.120 learning new topics. But you also brought up a certain 182 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:21.799 point in the past. We actually had this great episode 183 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:25.240 on the show with the Moad Stone from Wicks about 184 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:30.480 building your personal technological brand, and you mentioned that. But 185 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:34.320 I do have to ask about this. Do you feel 186 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:39.120 that your public speaking has actually promoted your brand in 187 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:41.279 a sense which furthered your career? 188 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:47.120 Let's say, yeah, I can answer for myself. Definitely. Definitely. 189 00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:50.600 I feel like my career. You can slit the career 190 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:53.919 into two. Before I started public speaking and after. You 191 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:56.559 can't compete with this kind of freach. You can't compete 192 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:59.799 with an audience of people who sit and listen to you, 193 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:01.360 and you have you have the chance, You have the 194 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:06.600 opportunity two to present yourself as as an an expert, 195 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:09.559 as a domain experts, as someone who can speak intelligently 196 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:12.440 like you say so, Definitely, it has a huge impact 197 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:15.399 on the brand I think. I think it's the highest 198 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:17.799 value for effort that you can you can get. 199 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:23.960 You're a very senior role principal engineer the very well 200 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:29.440 known company Shopify. Do you think that your public speaking 201 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:35.200 was had a significant impact on your ability to get 202 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:35.840 this position. 203 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:43.159 Yeah, definitely. I can't count the number of messages that 204 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:47.039 I got. Hey, I saw your video in this conference, 205 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:49.360 so I saw you in this conference, or someone from 206 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:52.720 my company told me about this talk that you gave 207 00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:57.399 and when you like, a lot of messages come with 208 00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:01.559 links to my to YouTube of my top So so 209 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:04.440 I think I wouldn't say that I wouldn't get to 210 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:07.559 this point otherwise. But but definitely it helps a lot. 211 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:09.440 It helps a lot put you out there to get 212 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:13.840 your name to be known. That's something that yeah, you 213 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:15.559 can't really do in any other way. 214 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:18.440 How about your real. 215 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:26.639 I think they saw all of my arguments like that first, 216 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:30.919 and it was both of you. That's still it. 217 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:34.159 It's it's absolutely likely I said it's a and also 218 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:38.360 what Avitel said it for me, the value, like the 219 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:42.639 crowds benefit and my benefit are strictly equal. Like when 220 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:46.200 I see people's a harm moment like that that fills me. 221 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:51.600 So I am dependent on like their experience is my experience. 222 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:55.000 And and also the rush of seeing like you know, 223 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:59.559 a thousand people focused completely like only. 224 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:00.639 On every word that you say. 225 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:05.919 It's an incredible feeling that's very hard to describe. And 226 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:09.399 also the amount of opportunities that came out of. 227 00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:11.440 This is unbelievable. 228 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:17.039 And I will say that I also had I was 229 00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:22.159 interviewed recently about like public speaking and branding, and I 230 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:27.159 think that specifically when you talk about branding, when people 231 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:32.320 do public speaking not in the purpose of creating a brand, 232 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:37.679 but in the purpose of delivering and giving other people value, 233 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:42.320 the brand kind of builds itself. And it's really easy 234 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:47.519 to differentiate between speakers that the best speakers are not 235 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:50.399 in it for the branding. The branding built itself because 236 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:54.080 they're passionate. And I can see a lot of like 237 00:14:55.679 --> 00:15:02.639 people pushing themselves towards public speaking for the sake of branding, 238 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:05.919 and it just doesn't create the same content because it's 239 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.559 quite obvious right when you're building. When you're creating content, 240 00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:12.399 are you thinking about your brand or are you thinking 241 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:15.240 about how does my crowd benefit from this to the maximum? 242 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:18.759 And it really creates a completely different experience if you 243 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:19.159 ask me. 244 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:23.279 I do want to add one point. If you tell 245 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:26.879 you kind of joked about the travel and accommodation, but 246 00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:30.080 for me, it's actually not so much of a joke. 247 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:35.080 Almost every time I go to a conference overseas, I 248 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:38.799 try to turn it into a trip, a vacation, a tour. 249 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:43.120 So for example, about two years ago, I spoke at 250 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:47.480 the Web Directions in Sydney, Australia, and I brought my 251 00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:51.639 wife along and we toured four months in Australia after 252 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:54.799 this conference. Now, obviously we don't need the conference in 253 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:58.759 order to do that, but it's really nice when somebody 254 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:04.919 pays for half your plane tickets. Uh And and that's 255 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:09.440 a fairly significant factor for me of basically just visiting 256 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:14.320 places that I might not have gone to otherwise. If 257 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:17.279 not for that, for those conferences. 258 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:21.080 You if you weren't that passionate about JavaScript, I don't 259 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:21.879 know if you would have made it. 260 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:24.720 Oh yeah, for sure. But you know it's like you 261 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:29.960 know they say about real programmers that you know, we're 262 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:33.039 always surprised at how much we earned doing something we 263 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:36.600 would have done for free. And I guess it's kind 264 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:40.279 of the same about the conferences, the conference scene. I 265 00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:44.519 I probably would have done it otherwise, but it's a 266 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:49.399 great benefit. I will say, just and I'll give you 267 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:52.080 the the I'll let you speak in a second yad. 268 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:55.799 I will say that if a conference does not cover 269 00:16:55.919 --> 00:17:00.440 my expenses and it's not a conference that my job 270 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:04.119 decides to send me to, then I'm highly unlikely to 271 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:04.839 go there. 272 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:10.279 Yeah, so you spoke about the accommodation and the flight, 273 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.640 and that's actually that raises another point. Another benefit of 274 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:18.440 speaking conferences, especially high profile conferences, is the other speakers. 275 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:22.000 So you have a lot of opportunities to connect with 276 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:25.680 people that are legends in the field, and you sit 277 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:28.160 with them to speakers dinner, and you talk to them 278 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:33.079 and you create connections, and that's something that it's a 279 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:35.480 personal benefit. It's not why you do the conferences, but 280 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:39.759 that's something that helps build your brand and build your connections, 281 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:43.880 and coming as a speaker obviously put you in a 282 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:46.000 different category than just coming to the conference. 283 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:50.079 I'm actually a host here on this podcast because of that, 284 00:17:50.319 --> 00:17:55.119 because I was speaking at O'Reilly Fluent when that process, 285 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:59.480 when that conference still existed a few years ago, and 286 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:01.720 the state it's like six years ago, it's not so 287 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:05.519 few anymore, six or seven. And I met Amy Knight, 288 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:09.640 who was one of the hosts at JavaScript Jabber back then, 289 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:13.039 and she basically kind of invited me on the show 290 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:16.359 and things got rolling and eventually I became a host. 291 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:21.599 So for sure. I met ken C. Dodds, I met 292 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:26.640 Kyle Simpson, I made the tagus. The list goes on 293 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.759 and on, you know, some just some people off the 294 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:35.680 top of my head. But the speakers dinners tend to 295 00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:39.440 be awesome. And also I like to say that probably 296 00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:43.000 that in many conferences the most interesting place in the 297 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:44.680 conference is the speaker's room. 298 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:46.519 Speakers room. Yeah. 299 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:50.279 Yeah, if even if you're not speaking, I recommend sneaking 300 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:55.480 into the speaker's room. Yeah. There usually isn't a guard 301 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:57.680 at the door. You can basically just get in if 302 00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:58.200 you've got the. 303 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:00.519 Don't tell the secret. 304 00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:04.599 So yeah, but by the way, about personal branda that 305 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:06.880 you ask, I remember that. I think only after my 306 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:10.599 third or fourth talk ever, I think it was Guilty 307 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:13.200 Hear that came to me and say, hey, maybe you 308 00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:16.680 do want to put your details, like your contact details 309 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:19.359 at the end of the of the talk, just so 310 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:21.559 people will know you know who you who you are. 311 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:24.839 And I was so focused on giving the value that 312 00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:27.599 didn't think about it. But that's something that if you 313 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:30.640 want to use conferences to increase your person brand, you 314 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:31.400 have to do that, right. 315 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.359 Yeah. So Gil I actually met at Wix, but he's 316 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:36.519 one of the great people you can meet at conferences. 317 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:39.559 Another one was Rich Harris. I met him at the conference. 318 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:44.720 A lot of amazing people, Ryan Carniato. The list goes 319 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:51.440 on and on and on. I even remember a funny story, 320 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:55.279 like way back when I was at Google ioe and 321 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:58.599 I wasn't even speaking there. I was just, you know, 322 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:03.039 visiting and walking around, and I met Jason Miller, the 323 00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:07.160 creator of pre Act, and I met I forget his name, 324 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:14.079 the guy who created Webpack Socra I forget anyway, so 325 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.480 we were sitting together, and then we were walking around together, 326 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:21.799 just talking about stuff. And then I see this guy 327 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:25.480 walking towards us, and there's this look of recognition in 328 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:27.960 his eyes, and he walks up to us, all excited, 329 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:31.400 and I'm wondering who will he speak to, the creator 330 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:33.640 of pre Act to my right or the creator of 331 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:35.720 web back to my left. And he goes to me 332 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:38.480 and he says, Dan, I saw your talk at this 333 00:20:38.599 --> 00:20:41.119 and that conference. It was so good, and I was like, yes, 334 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.359 So it does create a certain brand recognition and it's 335 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:48.440 a great feeling when that happens. Anyway, moving on to 336 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:55.119 the next question that I prepared. So we talked about 337 00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:59.880 our background to speakers about why we got into public speaking. 338 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:04.640 But after talking about the why, let's talk about the how. 339 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:08.400 How did you actually get into public speaking? What was 340 00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:11.759 the process for you? Wants to go first? This time, 341 00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:16.000 meet this time, go for it. 342 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:21.279 And as a matter of fact, I was really outside 343 00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:22.000 of the whole. 344 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:27.359 I wouldn't say the industry. 345 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.039 But like I wasn't really in this world of conferences, 346 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:34.599 and I was barely going to twenty meetimes, so I 347 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:37.799 had no idea how what of a brand it could 348 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.240 create and which opportunities is it going to give me? 349 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:45.119 Like I just went I changed jobs after I worked 350 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:46.200 in Licensed. 351 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:50.079 And in my new job, I suddenly I wasn't in 352 00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:54.359 a team full of senior developers, and I suddenly saw 353 00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:58.640 that I have value to give other developers. You were 354 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:04.799 the senior, yes, And suddenly I saw that I that 355 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:07.519 I have a lot of things I can teach others, 356 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:11.039 and and I wanted more. I wanted more than just 357 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:16.079 the five developers I was working with. And I was 358 00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:18.839 looking for for a connection to speak in a in 359 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:22.720 a meetup, and I went to reverse in conference and 360 00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:27.200 I started the mingling and caught some guy that that 361 00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:31.039 connected Gilad you guys know him, and he connected me 362 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:34.559 with some community to speak in a meetup. It was 363 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:38.559 I gave a talk about GIT actually how how it works, 364 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:44.880 and and it just blew up. It was really quite insane, 365 00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:50.079 Like after that talk, I had so many, so many 366 00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:53.599 different industries approaching me. I was, I gave that talk 367 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:59.960 like probably everywhere in the military, and then the conference 368 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:03.480 approach to me to come to file to file a SFP, 369 00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:09.079 and and it really just got so crazy so fast. 370 00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:12.640 Without any intention of I had no idea what I'm 371 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:14.039 going to what's in it for me, Like. 372 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:15.240 What we talked about earlier. 373 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.359 I just wanted to to teach people stuff. 374 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.480 And I was like, like I can talk about this. 375 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.880 I like, like, I think it's beautiful, and and one 376 00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:28.839 thing led to another, and now I'm flying for four 377 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.000 convinces in the year. 378 00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:35.160 Each each one have has their own concept of beauty. 379 00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:39.160 You don't think it is I think. I think KITS 380 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:42.400 is beautiful on the inside. I think the command line 381 00:23:42.440 --> 00:23:45.880 interface leaves a lot to be desired if. 382 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.920 You would listen to my talk. I don't recommend that 383 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:50.160 much using the command line. 384 00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:52.599 I just recommend understanding how it works, and then you 385 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.759 can use the beautiful doing interfaces. 386 00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:01.119 Point taken. Have you told how about you? How did 387 00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:03.640 you get into actually public speaking? 388 00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:10.839 Funny story, No, so first one, like I initially wanted 389 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:15.440 to become a public speaker, like years before. I remember 390 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:19.920 going to a conference in twenty fifteen, and I think 391 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:21.880 it was the first you got a left front at 392 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:25.640 in twenty fifteen, and I saw I think it was 393 00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:29.400 Douglas Crawford and on the stage and and and I 394 00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:33.119 was odd because for the first time that I go 395 00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:35.319 to a conference, I see it wasn't about him, but 396 00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:38.960 it was about him being actually being valued enough to 397 00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:42.400 be flown all the way to another country and actually 398 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:46.720 delivering value to an audience. And already at that point, 399 00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:48.400 I was like, I want to be there. I want 400 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:51.680 to be on that stage, be able to deliver value 401 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:57.119