WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.679 --> 00:00:08.240 With Laurent's segle End from London and Gerard Reed from Berlin. 2 00:00:08.759 --> 00:00:10.560 This is redefining energy. 3 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:15.240 Today on Reefin Energy, we're going to talk about batteries, 4 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:18.760 but not battery chemistry. We're going to talk about the 5 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:20.679 digital layer around. 6 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:25.280 The batteries exactly. And I suppose it's all about getting 7 00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:27.440 the best out of batteries while at the same time 8 00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:31.039 making sure that they stay as healthy for as long 9 00:00:31.079 --> 00:00:31.600 as possible. 10 00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:34.799 Right, But first the world from our partner. 11 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:38.280 A b Loco Energy is Europe's premier leaser of ten 12 00:00:38.359 --> 00:00:42.679 foot container mobile batteries built in Europe with COTL best 13 00:00:42.799 --> 00:00:48.600 LFP cells. A Bloco Energy serves fourteen European countries, including France, 14 00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:52.799 Germany and the UK. A Bloco's batteries can be leased 15 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:55.960 for any duration between six weeks and six years, and 16 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:59.320 they are monitored by the Dutch award winning platform school 17 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:03.159 A block of Energy, Make your life easier, make your 18 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:04.200 business more flexible. 19 00:01:04.439 --> 00:01:09.120 Back to the show, Yeah, absolutely, and there's been a 20 00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:16.120 few startups developing unique expertise around monitoring those batteries and 21 00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:21.519 there with absolutely phenomenal results. So we decided to bring 22 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:25.120 another doctor, you know where the doctor last week and 23 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:28.280 then being another doctor. Yeah. 24 00:01:28.359 --> 00:01:32.640 No, it's great to get doctor Kyle Philip Kiris on 25 00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:35.359 the show. I call them Kyle Phillips, but everybody these 26 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:38.719 days call them KP. Anyway, it was really super to 27 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:41.719 bring KP on the show. So he's obviously been an 28 00:01:41.719 --> 00:01:44.920 incredible entrepreneur in the space and very knowledgeable and around 29 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:47.760 batteries and what you should and shouldn't do with them. 30 00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:50.760 Right, He is the founder and CEO of a German 31 00:01:50.799 --> 00:01:53.400 company called a Cure, which is probably one of the 32 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:57.799 best in the world in the field of predictive battery analytics. 33 00:01:58.760 --> 00:01:58.959 Yeah. 34 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:03.439 A Cure currently suppose of six gika what ire of 35 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:08.840 batteries system across evs and just storage marine application all 36 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:09.479 over the world. 37 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:11.840 Yeah, well, so listen, why don't we just bring them 38 00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:12.240 on the show. 39 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:16.520 KP. Welcome to the show, and I see behind you 40 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:19.400 there's a picture saying get shit done. 41 00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:23.719 Absolutely, thanks for the invitation. Great to be here. And 42 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:27.039 as a startup founder in an industry that tends to 43 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:31.000 be somewhat slow moving, sometimes I think startups like a 44 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:34.960 Cure can really be an agent of acceleration and change. 45 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:38.159 And so it's a mantra that I try to involve 46 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:42.000 into everything we're doing here to just keep moving. 47 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:45.159 Well, I think actually what's really lovely is to see 48 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:47.039 the other thing that's behind you, which is a book 49 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:51.120 on energy storage, and that's actually what we're talking about today, 50 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:54.240 And maybe I just kick off. Philip's great to have 51 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:56.560 you versually on the show. But really what I'd be 52 00:02:56.639 --> 00:02:59.960 interested in talking about, certainly at the beginning here is 53 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:04.000 it's just what's going on the whole area of battery technology. 54 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:06.400 And when I say battery technology, I'm not even just 55 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:08.840 talking about the chemistries and this, that and the other thing, 56 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:13.240 because there's battery management systems, there's analytics in your area. 57 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:14.960 There's a whole part of stuff going on that we 58 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:17.960 sort of don't talk about. So could you give us 59 00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:20.360 just a quick overview of what you see going on 60 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:23.120 and there's sort of technology landscape in and around batteries. 61 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:26.439 Yeah, I hope you're sitting comfortable. This will take about 62 00:03:26.439 --> 00:03:30.680 two or three hours. Well, now, I'll try to keep 63 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:33.919 it short. My personal background really is I've been working 64 00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:39.159 with batteries professionally since two thousand and eight, over fifteen years. 65 00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:42.879 And what's mind boggling and has been mind boggling for 66 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:48.520 over a decade is the continuous growth, exponential growth of 67 00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:52.759 the entire industry along every perceivable dimension, and so the 68 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:58.759 complexity of this entire battery landscape is continuously increasing, and 69 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:03.360 it's hard for people to comprehend exponential growth. And what 70 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:08.599 I mean is today we are looking at prices, for example, 71 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:14.000 or energy densities of LFP batteries that are far beyond 72 00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:18.000 the most optimistic predictions from five or six years ago. 73 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:21.879 We're off the charts today and we continue to be 74 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:26.399 off the charts with any upcoming prediction. And as an industry, 75 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:30.079 as an energy industry, we're always two or three steps 76 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:34.839 behind in adapting to the new realities that are coming 77 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:39.720 our way, mostly driven by Chinese industry policies which have 78 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:46.480 been amazingly effective in unlocking this entire new vertical in 79 00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:51.680 the energy industry. And from a technological perspective, I would 80 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:56.199 really see batteries are by far the most interesting area 81 00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:59.560 that you could work in today as an energy professional. 82 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:06.079 But unfortunately sometimes they burn. Unfortunately they do, and regardless 83 00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:06.800 of the chemistry. 84 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:10.920 Yeah, absolutely, there's been a lot of discussion around LFP, 85 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:15.839 you know, lithium iron phosphate is now winning against NMC, 86 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:19.879 the more traditional nickel manganese cobalt batteries that had mostly 87 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:24.199 been developed for immobility. However, the flammable agent in the 88 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:28.879 battery is the electrolyte, and LFP batteries actually have more 89 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:33.199 electrolyte in them per unit of energy per kill what 90 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:38.079 our because the energy density is somewhat lower. So even 91 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:42.120 the LFP battery can ignite and can burn and can 92 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:45.480 cause damage. They are slightly more stable in terms of 93 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:51.000 temperature resilience, but however, it's the same in any energy technology. 94 00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:54.399 If you force a lot of energy into a small space, 95 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:57.959 you create a risk, and as engineers, as an industry 96 00:05:58.040 --> 00:06:02.120 is our job to manage those risks through good design, 97 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:07.519 through high production quality, through analytics of course, and through 98 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:12.439 processes and quality assurance. The industry has made tremendous progress 99 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:16.199 over the last couple of years. The last really big 100 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:19.920 disaster that we had, most landing was built with a 101 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:24.800 system layout that no one would use anymore today, So 102 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:28.720 it's kind of not representative of what's going on right now, 103 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:31.600 and the fact that everyone can agree that we should 104 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:34.759 never build something like that is a good sign for maturity. 105 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:36.959 Sorry, let me cut it cross there because I actually 106 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:39.560 don't think that's a fair question from wrong. And the 107 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:41.720 reason I don't think it's a fair question from Lron 108 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:46.800 is that we've been dealing with flammable fossil fuels for 109 00:06:46.839 --> 00:06:50.160 one hundred years in the exact same situation where oil 110 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:52.399 and gas you can blow up, your house, you can 111 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:54.079 blow up It's an engineering thing. 112 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:55.399 That's the resort. 113 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:58.759 And the point is it is being sorted. And for me, 114 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:01.199 the thing that is interesting about batteries is you said 115 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:04.839 at the beginning, it's the innovation in the battery space, 116 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:09.040 which is creating new markets that were not there five 117 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:11.160 years ago. I don't want to get lost in the 118 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:13.800 negativity about what goes wrong. I want to talk about 119 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:16.399 what the hell you can do with batteries and what's 120 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:19.480 happening in the market because you're sorting all these issues out. 121 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:21.639 You know, jeoh, no, I can down. 122 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:24.920 Wasn't It was just I just don't under Sorry, Maybe 123 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:26.560 it's just I didn't have a coffee in the morning 124 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:28.560 or whatever, right, but it was just like, why do that? 125 00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:30.639 Because we're bringing solutions. 126 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:33.279 But the question you understand where I'm coming from it 127 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:35.639 we have a big picture we're talking about how great 128 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:39.800 batteries are. And then your first question is a negative 129 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:43.040 question in and around fire risk, which is a tiny 130 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:45.839 risk in the market that we're in now talking about 131 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:48.560 people listening to what we're talking about. That's not the 132 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:52.519 appropriate second question on that podcast. Okay, that's all. 133 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:55.759 No, no, no, it's fine. So ask your question. 134 00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:57.319 I don't want to ask you question. You go and 135 00:07:57.360 --> 00:07:58.199 ask another second. 136 00:07:58.279 --> 00:08:00.759 What is it you're gonna make good? Oh? 137 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:04.120 Okay, maybe just dig in a little bit. I like 138 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:05.759 what you said. A said there and Techno talk a 139 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:09.920 little bit more about the innovations in the last few 140 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:11.720 years that you've seen in the marker. 141 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:16.720 So one kind of meta development that I find incredibly 142 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:19.000 interesting that and I think a lot of people aren't 143 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:22.319 fully aware of it, is if you track each of 144 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:26.560 those dimensions in which batteries got better, lower prices, higher 145 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:30.680 energy density, more vendors, higher availability, and all these things, 146 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:34.440 if you all take that together, you end up with 147 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:41.320 a deflation spiral where lower battery costs unlock new markets, 148 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:46.120 which create more demand, which create more supply, and supply 149 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:50.080 again lower prices. We've seen similar things with SOLA over 150 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:53.720 the last years. But because batteries are much more versatile 151 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:57.279 and can be used in more applications, and you have 152 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:00.519 more cross pollination if you will, between the more mobility 153 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:05.000 and the energy space. The cycle is actually much faster 154 00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:10.759 and much stronger. So any new improvement in battery technology 155 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:15.039 will lead to more batteries, which in turn will lead 156 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:19.000 to better improvements. A friend of mine who's working in 157 00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:23.519 the battery production industry recently told me in China at 158 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:27.600 the moment, there are over one thousand independent battery cell 159 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:32.039 manufacturers that are trying to outcompete each other. The competitive 160 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:37.000 pressure is incredible and only the strongest will survive. And 161 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:40.120 the rest of the world at the moment really benefits 162 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:46.919 from these incredible competitive dynamics through cheap, extremely high quality batteries. 163 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:49.960 And here I like to quote a friend of the 164 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:54.320 show friend of ours, Mark Kubic. It publishes regularly the 165 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:57.559 results of the tenders that you're in China, which are 166 00:09:57.639 --> 00:10:01.159 very transparent and just before the summer are the result 167 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:06.159 of the CEEC tender. They came at system level, not 168 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:10.399 cell level, at fifty dollars what hour, which is insane. 169 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:13.840 It's a drop of fifteen percent in six months. 170 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:17.320 When I started my PhD. Over a decade ago, we 171 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:20.600 were working on some market studies of hey, what are 172 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:26.559 reasonable assumptions in ten years? And the rock bottom that 173 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:30.720 a lot of researchers always saw was one hundred US 174 00:10:30.759 --> 00:10:34.639 dollars on cell level, not on system level, and now 175 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:38.360 we're talking about between fifty and sixty US dollars on 176 00:10:38.679 --> 00:10:43.759 system level, So we're fifty percent below rock bottom already. 177 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:47.720 And the industry is still scaling up and still professionalizing, 178 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:49.960 and there are still i want to say, the low 179 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:53.399 hanging fruits have all been reaped, but there are still 180 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:57.840 developments that companies like HLBYD and all the others are 181 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:02.360 working on that will reasonable compress prices by another five 182 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:05.080 to fifteen percent over the next three or four years. 183 00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:07.600 For me, the big revolution is going to be behind 184 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:09.679 the meta because you know, we've put the big system 185 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:12.559 at transmission level and those you know, three hundred make 186 00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:15.440 awards and five hundred make a word. But this is 187 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:18.000 going to unlock a lot of you know, new load 188 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:21.879 data centers ense on because let's admit, the grid as 189 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:25.519 is cannot support all that additional demand. Now, if you 190 00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:27.759 look at that additional demand is going to be probably 191 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:29.480 five or ten percent of the time. The rest of 192 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:32.279 the time the grid can deal with it and the 193 00:11:32.279 --> 00:11:34.679 batteries are going to solve all those problems. 194 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:39.320 And just in terms of timing in order to extend 195 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:42.559 your grid, the companies that are responsible for it, they 196 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:46.399 tend to work at a conservative pace. So it might 197 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:49.360 take three, four or five years to put in place 198 00:11:49.399 --> 00:11:53.320 a new grid connection, whereas adding a micro grid with 199 00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:56.480 solar and batteries you can do that in six to 200 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:59.600 nine months. And if you look at the hyperscalers, it's 201 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:01.759 a myth that they have a twenty four to seven 202 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:06.399 constant load profile. They actually have fairly dynamic load profiles. 203 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:09.080 They just don't want to talk about it because you 204 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:14.279 can actually reverse engineer some of the underlying strategies by 205 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:17.360 looking at the energy consumption. And so it's a secret 206 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:19.960 how the power consumption is and those low profiles are 207 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:24.559 in public. But batteries will be a key enabler of 208 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:30.240 adding additional computational power, especially in markets that are low 209 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:33.279 regulation like Texas for example, in the US, where you 210 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:34.279 can just start building. 211 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:37.159 Can I take that a step further because if I 212 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:39.759 look at my desktop here, I've got six devices on it, 213 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:41.399 and four of them have batteries. 214 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:42.240 Yeah. 215 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:45.039 Now I'm going to make it prediction and say we 216 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:47.279 sat here and we had this conversation. In five years time, 217 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:49.960 they'll all have batteries. And I think you're going to 218 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:53.039 have the batterization of our buildings, which means the devices 219 00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:55.519 have it. And it makes a huge amount of sense 220 00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:58.039 because you can then if you're selling a washing machine, 221 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:00.720 you put a battery in there. Actually you have a 222 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:02.879 different business model. And if I look at the white 223 00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:06.840 good manufacturers or battery manufacturers, Samson, LGA and a Sonic, 224 00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:08.639 you know, and I don't know if you think I'm mad, 225 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:11.399 but I think that's where we're going because the technology 226 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:12.240 is just so cheap. 227 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:17.039 It is and continues the idea of energy storage, and 228 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:21.039 batteries are really the most advanced and most practical form 229 00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:24.039 of energy storage. But the problem on the fundamental level 230 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:26.759 that we're solving at scale now is the question of 231 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:31.240 energy storage. For one hundred years, it was basically impossible 232 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:35.759 to store energy outside of fossil fuels. The reason as 233 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:38.879 a society we're so much in love with fossil fuels 234 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:43.360 is because they are energy on demand. Oil is fairly 235 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:46.480 easy to store gas as well, and when you need energy, 236 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:49.080 you know, you just push a button and you convert 237 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:54.399 it from coal, gas oil into electricity. But energy storage 238 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.679 batteries really allow us to do the same thing without 239 00:13:57.720 --> 00:14:01.720 the fossil fuels. And if you look at modern warfare, 240 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:04.320 if you look at the conflict zones of the world 241 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:08.919 right now, the conflicts are now fought out with drones, 242 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:12.240 and drones are most often, not always, but in a 243 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:17.639 fair share battery powered devices. So batteries also gained this 244 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:22.879 critical defense importance, and that of course again triggers the 245 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:26.840 question of can any country afford to be one hundred 246 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:31.440 percent reliant on foreign batteries when it comes to grid stability, 247 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:34.960 when it comes to being able to defend themselves. And 248 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:40.080 right now there's no country outside of China and perhaps 249 00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:42.600 you know a bit South Korea and Japan who has 250 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:45.720 a fully functioning battery industry KP. 251 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:48.000 Can I ask you? Then, I would say to myself, 252 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:51.440 what's more important. It's not the battery cells or whatever. 253 00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:54.840 I think they're almost a commodity. But what's really interesting 254 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.879 is the management of those batteries and the analytics. And 255 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:01.799 that's the area that ultimate you're working in. So could 256 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:04.399 you talk a little bit about the innovation you're seeing 257 00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:07.240 in that area and your views in and around the 258 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:08.120 importance of it. 259 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:12.440 If you just look at the general trajectory of what 260 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:16.440 industries develop like, you start with something really simple, and 261 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:19.480 then you kind of build a more sophisticated product, and 262 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:23.200 at some point you add intelligence. You look at the iPhone. 263 00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:26.200 It started as an amazing hardware device, but one of 264 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:29.799 the main reasons it keeps getting better today is not 265 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:34.799 better hardware, but actually better software. It's better intelligence, better 266 00:15:34.840 --> 00:15:38.200 connectivity with other parts of your life, and the same 267 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:43.360 thing is happening with batteries. You need a solid quality 268 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:46.879 of hardware to start with, that's the foundation. But once 269 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:52.320 you have that, better intelligence will provide better results for 270 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:55.360 you whatever you're doing. And you know, the industry that 271 00:15:55.399 --> 00:15:58.240 we're most familiar with where most of our customers sit, 272 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:02.879 is the energy industry. Owners and operators of big batteries 273 00:16:03.559 --> 00:16:07.320 five hundred megawad hours a gigawad hour. We have analyzed 274 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:12.200 about fifteen one five gigawad hours of large scale storage 275 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:15.879 and you can just see that depending on which factory 276 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.519 they got produced in, which BMS they're using, which energy 277 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:24.480 management system they're using, which operational strategies the companies have. 278 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:29.960 The outcome is incredibly wide. So if we narrow it 279 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.600 down completely and say how much money can you make 280 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:36.159 with one megawat hour, depending on how you use the 281 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:39.360 battery and how intelligent you're operating it, it can be 282 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:44.559 plus minus twenty percent. And most people that are funds 283 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:48.159 or investing in energy storage, they don't really look at 284 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:53.240 technical performance so much. They are very passionate about trading optimization, 285 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:57.960 bidding into the right markets, having smart tolling agreements with 286 00:16:58.039 --> 00:17:00.639 a floor and a cap and all these things. But 287 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:05.000 then they're kind of ignorant about this huge lever that 288 00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:08.240 you can pull and just make fifteen percent more revenue 289 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:12.880 by orchestrating the hardware that you have in a smarter way. 290 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:16.799 And that's really we're working on and where we're trying 291 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:19.839 to make the industry faster, because if you can get 292 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:23.319 more output from the same hardware, it's cheaper and it's faster. 293 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:26.960 Let's go to your company that you created five years ago, 294 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:32.480 and congratulations, you continue to attract more capital. We'll talk 295 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:36.160 about your cap raise. So if I read a cure 296 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:44.319 Battery Intelligence mbH founded in Achen, Germany, develops AI powered 297 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:50.480 predictive analytics software to optimize battery safety, performance and longevity 298 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:57.000 for evs and battery energy. Soigy stembas It's cloud based 299 00:17:57.079 --> 00:18:02.039 platform use AI physics, base muddeling and fill that too 300 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:05.559 many top battery health detectissues the matter on a way 301 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:11.599 provide the Okay, so how does it work? Because that's beautiful? 302 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.240 But I guess what your computer everywhere? And then you 303 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:18.720 where do you plug into? Because if you're monitoring some 304 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:22.640 batteries in Australia in Texas, how does it work? 305 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:25.880 Let me give you like two minutes about the background 306 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:29.559 of how we ended up starting a company. To be honest, 307 00:18:29.720 --> 00:18:32.920 two years before starting a cure as an engineer, I 308 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:36.039 never thought about starting a business. It was not something 309 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:38.640 I thought I could do. Were in Germany do you 310 00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:40.720 need a license to start a business? I don't know. 311 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:45.680 Everything is complicated here. But in my last job at 312 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:49.240 the largest research group on grid connected storage systems that 313 00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:51.559 I had the honor to lead for a couple of years, 314 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:55.559 we developed our own five mega at our battery that 315 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:59.000 was back in like twenty thirteen. It was a really 316 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:01.400 big battery at the time time. We were one of 317 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.519 the first ones in Europe, and so we tried our 318 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:07.720 best to do it well and to do it professionally, 319 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:09.960 but there were just a lot of questions that no 320 00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:12.279 one could answer, so we had to try, and we 321 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:15.240 tried and failed and tried and failed, and eventually we 322 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:19.799 had five different battery technologies up and running. They're still 323 00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:24.480 operating profitably in Germany. And during that time we were 324 00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:28.359 so busy with fixing issues, among others. We had the 325 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:31.880 first Coatl battery that was installed in Europe at our site, 326 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:34.279 but it really had some issues in the beginning with 327 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:37.839 the bms, with state of charge estimation or with power 328 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:42.519 limits and these things, and just to help ourselves during 329 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:46.759 the time, we developed algorithms that help us pinpoint any 330 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:51.160 issue and then suggest fixes, and we did similar things. 331 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:54.640 Actually was behind the meta storage systems, and over time 332 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:59.200 we gathered so many of those algorithms, physics based models, 333 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:03.799 some ais, some pretty straightforward decision trees that we thought, hey, 334 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.519 someone else could benefit from that, and that's how we 335 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:09.519 started a cure. So we did it ourselves first, and 336 00:20:09.559 --> 00:20:12.039 now we want to help others in doing it, and 337 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:14.799 we plug into the energy management system. The data we 338 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:18.039 need is already there. And it's fairly easy to connect 339 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:23.000 and then you just see exactly what could be better 340 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:26.079 and the impact is pretty crazy, like ten percent more 341 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:28.400 revenue within the first three months, are not rare. 342 00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:34.960 What type of data you collect charging, discharging, temperature. 343 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:39.039 Voltage, correct temperature, really the basics, so what the sensors collect, 344 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:42.839 and then any other metrics that the BMS might calculate, 345 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:46.119 state of charge, state of power, stet of energy, HVAC, 346 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:47.119 inverted data. 347 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:50.400 Do you do it like at the container level or 348 00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:52.519 you can go on the cell sell by seller. 349 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:57.039 It depends a bit on the manufacturer. Some manufacturers have 350 00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:00.160 cell level available for some of its module for from 351 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:00.680 its string. 352 00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:04.160 Okay, so let's say I'm a big owner of batteries 353 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:09.799 and I say, KP, your system extraordinary. Can you plug in? 354 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:11.839 So how long does it take to plug. 355 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:15.160 In technical integration? Usually about six weeks and this is 356 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:19.759 including some buffers. Sometimes people are on holiday. Sometimes the 357 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:23.319 manufacturer needs to answer a question about how did you 358 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:26.039 connect this here? How did you connect this here? But 359 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:30.759 so we can onboard new customers fairly quickly, and if 360 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:33.920 they have multiple sides of the same type, say you 361 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:38.720 have three fluent assets or three bid assets, any other 362 00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:41.680 asset after the first one, we usually can onboard within 363 00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:43.400 a week, so that goes really fast. 364 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:47.880 Okay, So and then so the information start flowing, can 365 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:51.480 you immediately benchmark versus all the others you have in 366 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:55.359 your database, and that's how it starts working. So you 367 00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:58.039 have your best in class, worsting class and. 368 00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:03.319 Immediately see where a battery falls into the broader quality 369 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:06.759 comparison in terms of safety, in terms of performance, in 370 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:12.039 terms of aging, warranty, in terms of imbalances and state 371 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:15.160 of charge estimation errors and all these things. Of course, 372 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:18.359 just knowing that you have an issue isn't helpful. What's 373 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:21.440 helpful is taking that information and going to fix it. 374 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:25.319 And so we have a strong and large team of 375 00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.799 experts that work closely together with our customers, like really 376 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:31.480 they become a part of their team as the technical 377 00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:34.359 helper to help them fix these issues, and then we 378 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:37.640 can validate that it's actually better and that they're now 379 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:40.839 making more money. And that way, ideally, after three or 380 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:44.519 six months, we can clearly show hey, since you started 381 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:47.920 working with a cure, you made three million dollars more 382 00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:50.880 in revenue, but you only pay a cure. I don't 383 00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:54.119 know one hundred two hundred thousand, and so the difference 384 00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:57.400 is just pure profit for you, and that's our business model. 385 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:01.319 Do you think some guys would like to develop that 386 00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:05.279 in house because they said super proprietary or are people 387 00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:07.559 happy to have view look into their system. 388 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:10.440 I think one of the limiting factors really in the 389 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:14.079 industry at the moment is talent. The battery industry is 390 00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:19.039 growing exponentially. That means the growth every year is larger 391 00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:22.240 than the growth in the last year. And all these 392 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:26.759 new owners and operators that are being created, the growing ones, 393 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:32.759 they're already struggling to backfill fundamental positions and it's incredibly 394 00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:37.519 challenging to find the twenty twenty five engineers and pay 395 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:40.720 them to build such tools. And if you just do 396 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:44.519 a very quick back of the envelope calculation, it's not 397 00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:48.680 a good business decision to build these things. If there 398 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:52.160 are ready made solutions that large parts of the industry 399 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.240 are using. In some markets we have over twenty percent 400 00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:59.880 market share. It's the classical built or buy decision, where 401 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:04.240