Speaker 1: You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more
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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four eleven.
Speaker 2: First Think, second Dream, Third, Believe, and finally dare Walt Disney.
Speaker 1: Broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we
Speaker 1: really should be working on that next draft. It's the
Speaker 1: Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of
Speaker 1: screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof.
Speaker 3: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.
Speaker 4: I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari.
Speaker 2: Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage.
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Speaker 2: Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses
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Speaker 2: dot com. Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.
Speaker 4: My next guest is a screenwriter and director.
Speaker 6: His film Love Liza won the Waldo Salt Screaming Award
Speaker 6: at the two thousand and two Sundance Film Festival. His
Speaker 6: other film, Dog Bowl Well premiere it at the twenty
Speaker 6: fifteen Sundance Film Festival. We're going to talk all about
Speaker 6: Paul Thomas Anderson, and we're going to talk a little
Speaker 6: boitam thread. We're gonna talk about all that good stuff
Speaker 6: because this guest.
Speaker 4: Has you know, been down the road a couple of times.
Speaker 6: And we're also going to talk about obviously the Blue
Speaker 6: Cat Screenwriting Competition, which some deadlines are coming up, but
Speaker 6: I've also linked to those in the show notes, and
Speaker 6: also all the movies we talk about are in the
Speaker 6: show notes. Again Dave Bullis dot com. Just remember that's
Speaker 6: in case you need it for later. But with guest
Speaker 6: Gordy Hoffman. You know, Gourdy, I've actually you know, followed
Speaker 6: you for a while. I've I've actually entered the Blue
Speaker 6: Cat a few times. I've seen a few webinars. You know,
Speaker 6: not only is Blue Cat awesome, but but Gordy, you're
Speaker 6: kind of like the the the guy that you want
Speaker 6: to learn writing from because you're so like good natured
Speaker 6: and you just like have that attitude, you know what
Speaker 6: I mean, Like you just seem like you you not
Speaker 6: only know what you're doing, but but you know what
Speaker 6: I mean, like it's that that you're that you have
Speaker 6: the personality that sort of comes through if you know
Speaker 6: what I'm trying to.
Speaker 5: Say, Well, you know, well thank you. That's that's very
Speaker 5: sweet to say. And you know, I learned probably a
Speaker 5: long time ago that you know, when I was directing
Speaker 5: and when I got into teaching, that.
Speaker 2: You know, being.
Speaker 5: Loving and kind and courteous when you're talking to somebody
Speaker 5: about their stuff and trying to be makes them more receptive.
Speaker 5: I mean, if you ultimately want to help people and
Speaker 5: serve them and give them some information and help them
Speaker 5: with their writing. You want them to be able to
Speaker 5: listen and hear what you're saying. And you know, people
Speaker 5: get you know, no one wants to be sort of
Speaker 5: get negative or sort of shaming or anything, or like me,
Speaker 5: denigrated or discouraged in a way. It just it shuts
Speaker 5: people down, and they're not going to produce. Actors getting
Speaker 5: that nervous crew gets angry, resentful, they're not going to be.
Speaker 5: But if you're kind of courteous and respectful when you're
Speaker 5: making a film and and when you're talking to people
Speaker 5: about their work, it's difficult sometimes to navigate that. But
Speaker 5: it's something that we stress with our readers often. You know,
Speaker 5: we just say, you know, you got to be you
Speaker 5: are talking to the reader when you're setting you know,
Speaker 5: writing up the notes and and no one you know,
Speaker 5: it's just natural. It's just no one wants to People
Speaker 5: tend to shut down. They're not going to listen, they're
Speaker 5: not going to hear the notes if if they're delivered
Speaker 5: in a way so over time, I think, you know,
Speaker 5: I'm just not the you know, it's not really I
Speaker 5: guess that you know, there's probably some higher ethical reasons
Speaker 5: why you should be good to nice to people. But
Speaker 5: it's also it's also very practical, you know. It's also
Speaker 5: it's also practical if you want to actually tell a
Speaker 5: better story, then it's good to collaborate and work with
Speaker 5: writers and work with your fellow collaborators in a way
Speaker 5: that fosters that spirit so that they're relaxed and they
Speaker 5: feel entitled in the work and excited. So yeah, I
Speaker 5: don't want to crush people's spirits, Dave, crust their dreams.
Speaker 5: You know. It's just like it stays with you for years,
Speaker 5: you know. I mean it's like it's not a good look.
Speaker 5: So yeah, so I think it's just I think all
Speaker 5: anybody who likes to teach and has been teaching a
Speaker 5: while kind of learns that it's a it's a much
Speaker 5: more effective way to help a student. And that's what
Speaker 5: you want to do when you're teaching.
Speaker 6: You know, in your journey, Gordy, you know, through through
Speaker 6: going through all these different you know, uh places like
Speaker 6: you know, like Sundance and going on to you know,
Speaker 6: doing these webinars, and I mean, I'm sure you've met
Speaker 6: a ton of ton of people, you know, and and
Speaker 6: so you know, having done all that, have you met
Speaker 6: screenwrinning teachers who are who are like that, who just
Speaker 6: give like these very like paint like these notes that
Speaker 6: are just like directing to the point and very maybe even.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've I've for yeah, I've heard of students going
Speaker 5: coming back and being like, oh, you like saying you know,
Speaker 5: And I think some people just feel like that's I mean,
Speaker 5: some people think that that and you know if and
Speaker 5: I think some people maybe like that, I don't know,
Speaker 5: they like the oh I need to be I need
Speaker 5: somebody to be tough on me, you know. And I
Speaker 5: guess that. But I've had a lot of good writers,
Speaker 5: talented people, people that are back have pretty good backbones.
Speaker 5: You know, people just fold, you know when they do that.
Speaker 5: But yeah, absolutely there's people that because it's, you know what,
Speaker 5: it's easier to yell. I mean, it's it's easier to
Speaker 5: just freak out on people, you know what I mean.
Speaker 5: The work of being like a teacher and the work
Speaker 5: of getting somebody effective notes that's struggling in this Wither story.
Speaker 5: The work of being a respected director and effective director
Speaker 5: is is is being is kind of being able to
Speaker 5: react with grace and be able to be respectful It's
Speaker 5: so easy to be a jerk, you know, I mean
Speaker 5: to just be like why what were you know, like
Speaker 5: whatever it is? And but you know, the thing is,
Speaker 5: I'm a writer, you know, and I'm and I'm a
Speaker 5: filmmaker myself. And I think that's that's why Bluecat, I
Speaker 5: think is flourished the way it hasn't grown the way
Speaker 5: it has And and I think that's what makes me
Speaker 5: an effective teacher as well, because I'm like, would I
Speaker 5: want to hear this? How would I want to hear notes?
Speaker 5: How would I want to hear this? Like? What would
Speaker 5: I what do I think would be fair? And you
Speaker 5: know that having that perspective really helps. And I think
Speaker 5: some maybe some teachers aren't we're never really writers or
Speaker 5: they haven't been writing for a long time, and they
Speaker 5: maybe it helps them so, but most teachers, you know,
Speaker 5: I think a lot of really affective teachers, you know,
Speaker 5: approach it with a pretty even keel. I don't think
Speaker 5: you really hear a bunch of you know, here too
Speaker 5: much about lunatic people. And I just don't think that that.
Speaker 5: I don't think that screamers really. I mean, writing is
Speaker 5: such a personal action, you know, it's a very vulnerable
Speaker 5: thing all creative artistic pursuits. You know, it's like you're
Speaker 5: really opening yourself up. You know, your instrument is your
Speaker 5: personal life. And you know it can get a little
Speaker 5: hairy when somebody's coming after the writing because it feels
Speaker 5: like they're coming after you. So yes, and you only
Speaker 5: know that. I think if you experience the process of
Speaker 5: writing yourself and you know how personal it is, so yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know that that's that thing. You know, how
Speaker 6: do you differentiate between the writing and yourself? You know,
Speaker 6: you hit the nail on the head right there, because
Speaker 6: you know, it's kind of like if you write a
Speaker 6: screenplay or a short story and you turn it in
Speaker 6: and the judges or the script consultant or whomever, or
Speaker 6: you know, the writers group doesn't like it. So you
Speaker 6: I mean, you feel like I've been there before. I
Speaker 6: feel like it's an assault on me, you know, and
Speaker 6: you're like, how dare you? You know, and then you
Speaker 6: start cogitated.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's and that's that's a good it's a
Speaker 5: good professional it's good exercising professionalism to be like, you know,
Speaker 5: this is not about you, and sometimes things are very personal,
Speaker 5: and you know, it feels like oh god, you know,
Speaker 5: and somebody's like, I think that character is a certain
Speaker 5: way and you thought differently, and that might reflect on
Speaker 5: your values, and it might reflect on your ethical uh
Speaker 5: you know core, you know, and and that can it
Speaker 5: starts to feel like you're kind of getting It's kind
Speaker 5: of like, oh, you know, you you think I'm a
Speaker 5: creep or you think I'm angry, or you think I'm like,
Speaker 5: you know whatever, or you think I condone this or
Speaker 5: you know whatever. And the professionals, I think, you know,
Speaker 5: I think it's good we all fall into that. And
Speaker 5: I think it's always good for me to remember that.
Speaker 5: You know. It's like, you know, this is a story.
Speaker 5: You know, you're creating something. You're going to create more.
Speaker 5: You know, you're gonna have a body of work.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
Speaker 3: and now back to the show.
Speaker 5: It's not you, it's not your life, it's you know,
Speaker 5: and everything is so personal the reactions from people. I mean,
Speaker 5: people are so spot get so wound up with feedback
Speaker 5: sometimes and it's it's like haven't you ever gone to
Speaker 5: a movie? It's like people that you love, like your
Speaker 5: family or your best friends or your spouses, or your
Speaker 5: partners or whoever, and you walk out and one person goes,
Speaker 5: I hated that, and the other person goes, god, I
Speaker 5: loved it, you know. And then and no one goes,
Speaker 5: oh my god, we need to move out, you know,
Speaker 5: or you know, there's no there's no big fallout. You know,
Speaker 5: it's sort of like, okay, yeah, you like Star Wars,
Speaker 5: I didn't you know, or whatever, and and you like
Speaker 5: Shape of Water and I didn't. There's something, and and
Speaker 5: that's it. Then you just go home and get dinner,
Speaker 5: and you know, you just kind of go on. But
Speaker 5: like when people have a reader or a writer's group,
Speaker 5: or a manager pass or a producer never get back
Speaker 5: to you, it's like and it's like, oh, you know,
Speaker 5: it's so devastating. It's like, you know, they're just people
Speaker 5: and it's just another reaction. And sometimes you might have
Speaker 5: expectations about you know, wanting a reaction from like say
Speaker 5: a contest, or from a producer or from a colleague.
Speaker 5: You want that reaction to be you know, the work.
Speaker 5: You know, you have expectations. But that's that's also something
Speaker 5: that we you know, as professionals, we want to keep developing,
Speaker 5: you know, a healthy sense of expectations and keep things
Speaker 5: in check and know that it's not at the end
Speaker 5: of the world if something doesn't, because you can as
Speaker 5: a writer. Writers always you know, there's always another movie,
Speaker 5: there's always another great idea. I mean, I'm you know,
Speaker 5: I get so worked up and then you know, and
Speaker 5: then you know, I come across another thing it's so incredible,
Speaker 5: and I go and I'm so excited about the idea
Speaker 5: of writing it, and I go, you know, and it
Speaker 5: makes you free of everything else, you know, so lower
Speaker 5: your expectations and realize everything is you know, everything's coming
Speaker 5: from a personal their own personal plays. And just remember that.
Speaker 5: You know how many times you've gone to the theater
Speaker 5: and walked out with divided reactions and it's so perplexing sometimes,
Speaker 5: you know, like what do you mean you didn't like that?
Speaker 5: You know, and it's like no, I didn't, and it's
Speaker 5: like okay, you know, and and it's just that's what
Speaker 5: makes everything kind of fun, you know, that's what makes
Speaker 5: the storytelling, you know, interesting.
Speaker 6: I think, yeah, you know, it reminds you that episode
Speaker 6: of Seinfeld where where mister Peterman he didn't like he
Speaker 6: said he took English Elaine to see the English patient
Speaker 6: and she hated it and he actually fired her. It
Speaker 6: is so funny because you know, not only does that
Speaker 6: speak of character within Seinfeld, but it's also I mean,
Speaker 6: you know, that's comedy because it's the ordinary that's brought
Speaker 6: up to the extraordinary. Because it's so ludicrous that that
Speaker 6: a boss fire an employee because he didn't she didn't
Speaker 6: like what movie.
Speaker 5: Is right and that. But that's how impassionate we are.
Speaker 5: That's how emotional we are about our decisions and our reactions.
Speaker 5: But as a writer, you know, it's it's like, yeah,
Speaker 5: and a lot of people get get really hung up
Speaker 5: on you know, and and you know, blue Cat gives
Speaker 5: out feedback and you know, and there's there's going to
Speaker 5: always be somebody who's going to be like this person
Speaker 5: you know, didn't you know, And I'm like, well, you know,
Speaker 5: that's what it's going to happen. You know. It's not
Speaker 5: a perfect process. You know, it's not math. It's not
Speaker 5: two plus two equals for and it's just not we're
Speaker 5: not doing that and not when like some people watch
Speaker 5: call me by your name and have one reaction and
Speaker 5: other people. I talked to a guy last night who
Speaker 5: walked out. You know, he just thought it was too slow.
Speaker 5: And other people think it's a masterpiece, you know, so
Speaker 5: and both of everybody's right. I mean, you know, love Wise,
Speaker 5: it was a movie I wrote. It came out a
Speaker 5: long time ago. It was reviewed in that you know,
Speaker 5: and people some are you know, came on theater, so
Speaker 5: it was reviewed by the press, and and you know,
Speaker 5: I realized that it was like the people that just
Speaker 5: thought it wasn't even worthy of a short. They just
Speaker 5: thought it was crap. You know. I'd be like, oh
Speaker 5: my god, you know, and then and then but then
Speaker 5: the people were like, oh, this is like a this
Speaker 5: is this is genius. And I realized it's like they're
Speaker 5: both sort of wrong and right, you know what I mean,
Speaker 5: Like I can't go to the genius people. People that
Speaker 5: think it was a masking roll. Well, you're right, that's
Speaker 5: a good review, you know what you're talking about the
Speaker 5: person who didn't like it. It's like, no, they're both right,
Speaker 5: you know, they're both like somebody likes something really like,
Speaker 5: oh my god, this is incredible. They're as crazy as
Speaker 5: the person that says something's horrible, you know what I mean.
Speaker 5: They're just it's just it's you know, it's all emotional
Speaker 5: response and personal history and you know it's it's but
Speaker 5: I mean, I hope you know, if anything, it's like
Speaker 5: I always I'm glad I think it when people when
Speaker 5: writers can like really look past that, because it really
Speaker 5: frees you up, you know, you realize it's like it
Speaker 5: keeps you going, and I think it gets you back
Speaker 5: to folks, you know, on developing better story instead of
Speaker 5: just focusing on reactions and all that stuff.
Speaker 6: So yeah, and you hit the nail on the head too,
Speaker 6: Gordy when you said about you know, this whole idea
Speaker 6: of story, because I think too many times when when
Speaker 6: you I mean, there's ten thousand screw running books out there,
Speaker 6: and the problem is you start to read some of
Speaker 6: these and it's all about a formula, you know what
Speaker 6: I mean. It's it's the precise, you know, and it
Speaker 6: is like you said, it's not math. But some of
Speaker 6: those books, though, they treat it as such, where it's
Speaker 6: like on page this, on page that this has to
Speaker 6: happen and blah blah blah blah, and then you start
Speaker 6: to get just lost in this. And that's why I think,
Speaker 6: I mean, you must see a lot where you're kind
Speaker 6: of like, this feels like they're not really writing a story,
Speaker 6: but they're trying to solve like a like a math problem.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. I mean, you know, there was a really there
Speaker 5: was a period of time where people were Saved the
Speaker 5: Cat was sort of you know, I mean with all
Speaker 5: credits to Save the Cat and the and the principles
Speaker 5: that the really healthy story principles that it so that
Speaker 5: it affirms and everything, and it was a period where
Speaker 5: it was like, you know, maybe ten years ago where
Speaker 5: it was like everybody was like, you know, really ablaze
Speaker 5: with that, and people were using it left and right,
Speaker 5: and and scripts some of the scripts were just ain't
Speaker 5: coherent because they were just they weren't even they had
Speaker 5: lost offense. They weren't even connected to their own story
Speaker 5: intuitive sort of compass inside, and so they were like, well,
Speaker 5: this is what the character is supposed to do on
Speaker 5: this page. And it was like with them, and you'd
Speaker 5: read it, you'd be like, I don't even know what's
Speaker 5: going on, you know, and and and you and the
Speaker 5: emotional thing wasn't happening and everything else. So yeah, you know,
Speaker 5: you kind of look for you can you know, the
Speaker 5: books are great and if you get stuff that inspires
Speaker 5: you incredible, If you get something that makes sense, it's great.
Speaker 5: A teacher, an analyst, a consultant. You know. It could
Speaker 5: be the guy, some guy you need at Starbucks who says, oh,
Speaker 5: I want to read your script, or some the barista,
Speaker 5: you know, anybody wants to you know, I'll read it,
Speaker 5: you know, And then they go, I just didn't think.
Speaker 5: I mean, I've gotten notes from everywhere, you know what
Speaker 5: I mean, and it just doesn't there's no there's no
Speaker 5: bad source of notes. It's just the one that actually
Speaker 5: help you move forward. And know that. But yeah, you
Speaker 5: have to strike a balance between what the what formula is,
Speaker 5: what kind of this is? What this is the third act,
Speaker 5: you know whatever, and knowing that the only rule of
Speaker 5: storytelling is emotional investment and getting an audience to care.
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, I mean, good example, call me
Speaker 5: by your name. I mean, I don't know what formula
Speaker 5: that followed or were like act structure or anything like that.
Speaker 5: I don't know. I don't know where a phantom thread.
Speaker 5: You know, you can't. I don't know what I mean.
Speaker 5: I mean, I'd have to probably watch it again or
Speaker 5: a couple more times to see. But I'm sure that
Speaker 5: Paul Thomas Anderson did not, you know, it was not
Speaker 5: even thinking about that. He was just telling an emotional story,
Speaker 5: creating characters that he thought an audience would be interested
Speaker 5: in and invested in emotionally. And that is what drives
Speaker 5: That's what drives affected storytelling. That's what that's what drives
Speaker 5: classic movies making, and that's what that's what drives profit
Speaker 5: in the marketplace is emotion. I mean, wonder Woman was
Speaker 5: wonder Woman because people loved wonder Woman and they were
Speaker 5: so gratified by her performance who she was, we were
Speaker 5: able to connect with her. It was like, oh, you know,
Speaker 5: and it's you know, and so this this happens, Whereas,
Speaker 5: like you know, the thing with Star Wars. It's like
Speaker 5: there was some mixed reactions out there we can all
Speaker 5: kind of safely say, and some people were like, I
Speaker 5: am not and basically boiled down to I am not
Speaker 5: feeling Luke Skywalker. I do not. I'm like I've lost
Speaker 5: my connection with Luke Skywalker. That's really what happened. It's
Speaker 5: like it's like they did something else with Luke and
Speaker 5: made some choices about the story, and that's what happened.
Speaker 5: You can't. I don't think anyone can deny that there
Speaker 5: was an emotional breakdown with some of the audience because
Speaker 5: of who they knew, Luke Skywalker should be so anyway,
Speaker 5: So it's all emotional investment. And so as long as
Speaker 5: we can remember that when we're when we're writing, I mean,
Speaker 5: just just you know, make a balance between. You can
Speaker 5: read stuff inspired, get you thinking about things, get you
Speaker 5: thinking about conflict and tone and things like this, you know,
Speaker 5: get it's good to think about these things and study
Speaker 5: them and look at other movies and how they function
Speaker 5: everything else. But don't forget that eight year old child
Speaker 5: that knew how to tell a story, you know what
Speaker 5: I mean? You can you can. You can go to
Speaker 5: a ten year old and go what happened after school today?
Speaker 5: And they'll tell you a story. They'll know at a beginning,
Speaker 5: to middle and end it. They know what the inciting
Speaker 5: incident is, they know what the payoff is, they know
Speaker 5: what the ending.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
Speaker 3: and now back to the show.
Speaker 5: You know, and they they know what that is. It's
Speaker 5: in their bloodstream, it's in their DNA. And so we
Speaker 5: got we we want to strike a balance between what
Speaker 5: we learn and what we already.
Speaker 6: Know, you know, yeah, you know, and uh, somebody once
Speaker 6: told me about kids storytellers that one of the main
Speaker 6: reason that there they actually become such good storytellers is
Speaker 6: is because they they're not afraid to fail, and they're
Speaker 6: you know, they're not really concerned about that, and they
Speaker 6: just sort of they.
Speaker 4: Just go in full force of that story.
Speaker 6: And it's not until you start, you know, going through
Speaker 6: you know, your your young adult life or what have you,
Speaker 6: you start to go, oh my god, the pure pressure,
Speaker 6: Oh my god, what if I look, don't you know,
Speaker 6: what if so many things, I'm an idiot?
Speaker 4: What if this isn't good, I suck? Then if this sucks,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean?
Speaker 5: Right right? There is definitely a definitely an open, open
Speaker 5: feeling about what they're doing and everything else. Absolutely so.
Speaker 6: And by the way, I know you mentioned Paul Thomas Anderson.
Speaker 6: You know, I actually saw your am a on on
Speaker 6: Reddit Gordy and I last when you when somebody asked
Speaker 6: are you the Gordy that but Paul Thomas Ayerson thanked
Speaker 6: at the end of the master and you just responded
Speaker 6: back with the the Heisenberg meme of your damn right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, it was funny. As I was. I
Speaker 5: remember that, I think I was. I had an intern
Speaker 5: in the office and he was like, no, let me
Speaker 5: get this any and I was like, okay, just put
Speaker 5: it up there, you know. He was he thought that
Speaker 5: was funny, or somebody was somebody in our office was like, yeah,
Speaker 5: he kind of grabbed that meme and put that up there. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I was. I was. I looked at the master a
Speaker 5: little bit along the way the script, and and you know,
Speaker 5: I'm obviously you know, Paul was very close to my brother,
Speaker 5: and they were like best friends and like literally brothers
Speaker 5: in their own right, you know. And and so we're
Speaker 5: very been very close to Paul for for twenty oh,
Speaker 5: you know, over twenty years. I mean, I you know,
Speaker 5: I mean I saw, you know, the Boogie Knights. I mean,
Speaker 5: my brother was telling me about Boogie I gave. I
Speaker 5: gave my brother Love Lies than the Fall of ninety six,
Speaker 5: and that was when he was shooting Boogie Knights, and
Speaker 5: he was telling me about this movie that he was
Speaker 5: making about the peign industry. You know. So it's I've known,
Speaker 5: you know, Paul, he's amazing. He's he really is our best.
Speaker 5: He's really the best we have, you know in America.
Speaker 5: I mean he's just he's like a Kubrick level genius.
Speaker 5: And he's gonna be I mean, the best is you
Speaker 5: have to come. I mean he's gonna Phantom Thread totally
Speaker 5: says that. You know, he's going to different play, he's
Speaker 5: gonna be, he's gonna everything is gonna he's gonna make
Speaker 5: so many great movies and then you know, in the
Speaker 5: second half of his life. It's really exciting. But yeah,
Speaker 5: I'm very honored. And he's always been very such a
Speaker 5: such a humble he's always very respectful of me, and
Speaker 5: you know, he's always been respectful of me, and he
Speaker 5: always he likes my judgment. And he's just a great guy,
Speaker 5: you know. I mean, he's a wonderful man too, is
Speaker 5: a good guy.
Speaker 6: So you know, as we were talking about, you know,
Speaker 6: directors and giving notes and stuff like that, so you know,
Speaker 6: in your experiences and working with him, you know, does
Speaker 6: he sort of have that sort of same mentality where
Speaker 6: you know, it's it's not so much of hey listen
Speaker 6: to me because I'm the director, but it's more of
Speaker 6: like he knows how to collaborate, you know, the right way.
Speaker 6: Because I've had people on here who've worked with like
Speaker 6: Quentin Tarantino, and that's one of the things they say
Speaker 6: was his strengths was was that, you know, he would
Speaker 6: get into this groove and they always knew when he
Speaker 6: likes stuff because he would start, you know, laughing and
Speaker 6: stuff like that, and and and you know, they they
Speaker 6: knew his vibe is this does Paul Thomas.
Speaker 5: And I'm not been on the sat with Paul, so
Speaker 5: I can't really speak to him as a director and
Speaker 5: like what that is. But I mean, you know, so
Speaker 5: I just all I can say is from my vantage point.
Speaker 5: You know, he obviously knows how to cast. He knows
Speaker 5: how to direct an ensemble of actors and and bring
Speaker 5: them together in the scene. You know, he's very very gifted.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's he does so many things well. People
Speaker 5: just don't understand that he you know, he's writing on
Speaker 5: a certain level that is highly original and authentic, emotionally authentic,
Speaker 5: and he delivers high conflict. He never he doesn't run
Speaker 5: from emotional emotional beats and high highly intense emotional situations.
Speaker 5: You know, he knows how to cast he has an
Speaker 5: incredible he has a Shakespearean sense of comedy and how
Speaker 5: he balanced his comedy in his stories. So, I mean,
Speaker 5: you know, you're a limited I mean, just in what
Speaker 5: I just said, you're eliminating like several major directors that
Speaker 5: are in this country, around the world that can't do
Speaker 5: all of those things. They do not do all of
Speaker 5: those things. They can't they can't do all that. And
Speaker 5: you go on, you're not even talking about, you know,
Speaker 5: where he puts the camera, You're not even you're not
Speaker 5: even talking about how he employs score and sound. I mean,
Speaker 5: it's it's it's it's off the charge. So it's like
Speaker 5: he has so much of that cupboard. He's literally like
Speaker 5: I mean to me, I mean, I I you know,
Speaker 5: obviously you know I might biased, you know whatever, But
Speaker 5: the fact is is that it's like, I mean, not
Speaker 5: anyone who knows anything I think probably would agree with me.
Speaker 5: But he is one of our he is he is
Speaker 5: the master. I mean, he is one of the greats,
Speaker 5: you know. And by the time it's all done, I mean,
Speaker 5: he's because he's gonna keep going. He's a young man
Speaker 5: and he's gonna keep going. And he's he's got all
Speaker 5: his faculties, and Phantom Threat was such a such a
Speaker 5: step forward I thought in so many you know, it's
Speaker 5: such a mature there was something so mat sure about
Speaker 5: the movie, and it was a real, real achievement. And
Speaker 5: you know, and obviously the Academy you know, agrees because
Speaker 5: they they not only nominated the movie Best Picture, but
Speaker 5: also nominated him for directing and and I think that
Speaker 5: that was well deserved. They know it, they know that
Speaker 5: it was it was, it was truly, it was truly
Speaker 5: an achievement and really really wonderful to see.
Speaker 6: So, you know, Gordy, that's that's actually one of the
Speaker 6: movies I want to see this year. I haven't actually
Speaker 6: been you know, either it wasn't playing at the time
Speaker 6: I went, or I you know, I haven't been able
Speaker 6: to sort of schedule time to go.
Speaker 5: It just came out. I mean, it just came out.
Speaker 5: I mean it just came out, like I mean, in
Speaker 5: la It's been out since the end of the year,
Speaker 5: end of twenty seventeen, but it just was released I
Speaker 5: think last weekend a lot of places, so a lot
Speaker 5: of people have not caught up to that one yet, so,
Speaker 5: you know, But so yeah, so but everyone will get
Speaker 5: a chance to take it in. But I encourage every
Speaker 5: all writers to look at that, you know, to go
Speaker 5: to go to that movie and and think about what
Speaker 5: what is successful and what is what is effective about
Speaker 5: the story telling in the movie, and and and take
Speaker 5: it in and I think you'll you know, it's a
Speaker 5: good it's a really great movie for screenwriters. You know.
Speaker 4: That was my mistake.
Speaker 6: Which I actually thought it came out like the end
Speaker 6: of November beginning December last year.
Speaker 4: So but but no, it didn't.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, I was just gonna say, I I I
Speaker 6: sometimes I get like released it's all mixed up, you know,
Speaker 6: and uh but yeah, yeah, but but you know, you
Speaker 6: made a good point. I want to I want to
Speaker 6: actually ask about it. Is you know, when you're a screenwriter,
Speaker 6: you know some of the you know, the the ideas
Speaker 6: of becoming a better screenwriter or you know, you have
Speaker 6: you have to read aize screenplays, and obviously you have
Speaker 6: to go to different movies. Do you feel that there's
Speaker 6: ever like an advantage of one over the other, Because
Speaker 6: I I one time went to a screenwriting seminar and
Speaker 6: the person said, you can't judge a you can't watch
Speaker 6: a movie and try to dissect it that way because
Speaker 6: you don't know what the script even look like. You know,
Speaker 6: they actors could be improvising, you know, this scene blah
Speaker 6: blah blah, and and I wanted to.
Speaker 4: Ask you what do you think of that advice?
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, the fact is is that you know,
Speaker 5: that sounds I mean, it sounds like, uh, a fairly
Speaker 5: reasonable point. But the fact that a screenplay is is
Speaker 5: it's it's part of making the film. And I think
Speaker 5: that ultimately, because there's a lot of scripts that you know,
Speaker 5: so you're so you can't judge the script. Well, if
Speaker 5: the script, you know, it doesn't matter in the end.
Speaker 5: We need our audience. We're not writing scripts, you know,
Speaker 5: we're right, We're trying to make a movie, you know.
Speaker 5: So yeah, So, I mean I think ultimately it's it's yeah,
Speaker 5: that sounds like, okay, well, you can't judge the movie
Speaker 5: based off of this stuff? Are you? Are you saying
Speaker 5: you can't judge the screenplay based off of the movie
Speaker 5: that we've just seen.
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 6: That that's what they were saying was because Okay.
Speaker 5: I think generally, I think generally, I mean, I think
Speaker 5: I'm sure there's exceptions where people, you know, drop the
Speaker 5: ball or the money doesn't happen, or there's bad performances
Speaker 5: or you know whatever. There's probably a number of reasons,
Speaker 5: but I think it's generally, you know, strong writing, you know,
Speaker 5: tends to reflect in a strong movie. It's it's very
Speaker 5: difficult to make a great movie from a mediocre script.
Speaker 5: It's just, you know, it's just difficult. They are very
Speaker 5: much correlated. I don't think there's a lot of variants there.
Speaker 5: And yeah, so interesting question though I've never heard that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's why I always like going and and you know,
Speaker 6: just interviewing people like you, Gordy, just you know, people
Speaker 6: out there in the field, and and you know, that's
Speaker 6: why I want to do this podcast because they get
Speaker 6: to hear all these different different takes on different things,
Speaker 6: you know what I mean, and you get to share knowledge.
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Speaker 3: and now back to the show.
Speaker 6: Because I think that's what technology has done. I mean, honestly,
Speaker 6: you know, once I started, it's it's kind of I
Speaker 6: kind of had my Aha moment, you know, with all
Speaker 6: this technology and the way media is the way it
Speaker 6: is now, you know, that's that's what it is. It's
Speaker 6: it's sharing knowledge and communicating with each other, just a
Speaker 6: lot faster and on a much now it's on a
Speaker 6: global scale, because I don't know if there's anybody on
Speaker 6: this planet anymore that you can't talk to if you
Speaker 6: want to, right, But uh, but yeah, and of course
Speaker 6: we've seen with movies you know now it's you know,
Speaker 6: you know you can put them on Netflix, Hulu, all
Speaker 6: that good stuff, and then you can you know, that
Speaker 6: show is distribution. But but I wanted to get back
Speaker 6: to to you. Gordia is talking about, you know, your
Speaker 6: career and everything.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 6: You've actually, you know, directed a few movies, You've written
Speaker 6: a few movies, so I actually wanted to ask you
Speaker 6: about some of those and some of your experiences actually
Speaker 6: making those.
Speaker 4: So you know, your your first movie.
Speaker 6: As you as you mentioned earlier, was Love Liza, So
Speaker 6: you know, I wanted to ask you where where was
Speaker 6: the impetus for writing that screenplay and how did you
Speaker 6: go about being able to direct that movie.
Speaker 5: I didn't direct it. Todd So directed it. Yeah, I
Speaker 5: wrote it, and I was I was a cab driver
Speaker 5: in Chicago and I saw somebody near a gas pump
Speaker 5: and I was like, I was like, is that person
Speaker 5: sniffing the gas? And I didn't really see them sniffing it,
Speaker 5: but I was like, and I was in my cabin.
Speaker 5: I wrote that down in an index card. I used
Speaker 5: to have all these blank index cards with me. I
Speaker 5: wondered where those are. I like, I wish I could
Speaker 5: find them. I wonder where they ended up. But I
Speaker 5: you know, I had like, yeah, I got like, uh
Speaker 5: to find some of that stuff. Anyways, Yeah, I wrote
Speaker 5: down a man starts hopping gas and and you know,
Speaker 5: and then that was the germ of it where I
Speaker 5: was like, well, why would he start doing that? It's
Speaker 5: just like, well, what if his wife committed suicide? And
Speaker 5: then I started to write that, and and he finds
Speaker 5: a note and I found that I didn't plan on that.
Speaker 5: He finds the note, and the note ended up driving
Speaker 5: the movie. But that's where love WISEA came from.
Speaker 6: So you know, sometimes when I find pieces of material
Speaker 6: that I've like written on an index card or back
Speaker 6: of a receipt or something, I'll look at it Gordy
Speaker 6: and I go, what the hell was I trying to say?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that doesn't happen to me too much anymore
Speaker 5: but sometimes yeah, I'm like I'll look back on something
Speaker 5: I write down in a little idea file. Usually I write,
Speaker 5: I get the idea, and I put it on like
Speaker 5: a little document, and I just you know, I have
Speaker 5: so many of them, and but I usually I know
Speaker 5: myself that I better explain it so that I can
Speaker 5: look back on it and know exactly what it is,
Speaker 5: because if I just write down macaroni and cheese, it's like,
Speaker 5: I'm like, what the oh was that idea? You know?
Speaker 5: You got to like looks like, oh what was that?
Speaker 5: It's like so yeah, But I think we've all had
Speaker 5: that experience of looking back at something we jotted down
Speaker 5: and been like, Okay, I guess that one's gone.
Speaker 6: You know, I've gotten into the habit of using my
Speaker 6: phone now. I use I use like ever note to
Speaker 6: to take down all yeah, because it helps you organize things.
Speaker 4: And also you're not like counting around tons of sheets
Speaker 4: of paper.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, that's that's electronic. You know. That's the
Speaker 5: technology that we have now, is that. Yeah, you don't
Speaker 5: really have index cards anymore. You just I just usually
Speaker 5: just write an email to myself, send it to myself,
Speaker 5: and then it ends up on my little movie folder
Speaker 5: idea lists for the year, and then uh, and I'm
Speaker 5: backing it up every couple of days, the whole computer.
Speaker 5: So I got creak. Sure I have everything. So it's
Speaker 5: all it's all different from back in the days twenty
Speaker 5: years ago when I came up with the idea for
Speaker 5: Love Lives.
Speaker 4: And I find it interesting too.
Speaker 6: Gordy, you were you were a cab driver in Chicago
Speaker 6: and you were just you know, I guess in between fares,
Speaker 6: you were just you know, on index cards. You would
Speaker 6: just sort of outline brainstorming ideas that you could put
Speaker 6: into a screenplat.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean that's the thing.
Speaker 7: I mean, you know, it just that was what I
Speaker 7: was doing. And I you know, to this day, it's like,
Speaker 7: you know, I mean, you know, it's like anywhere.
Speaker 5: An idea will come up. But at that time, you know,
Speaker 5: that's what that's what my day job was. It was
Speaker 5: a whole nother experience, you know. And I drove a
Speaker 5: cab in Chicago for three and a half years and
Speaker 5: and and that was yeah, I can still remember exactly
Speaker 5: the gas station that that happened, and and it was
Speaker 5: just one of the random things it was like and
Speaker 5: and and I just decided to go with it. You know,
Speaker 5: it was an idea, and you know, I just remember that.
Speaker 5: It's like sometimes you sit there and go, Okay, what
Speaker 5: ideas should I work on? And and you know, any
Speaker 5: idea that you pick, you're gonna make great, you know
Speaker 5: what I mean. So it's like it's like, I'm like,
Speaker 5: don't be so worried about whether or not this is
Speaker 5: the right idea, because you're going to work on it
Speaker 5: and it's gonna be awesome, you know, I mean, so
Speaker 5: you'll make everyone everything work. And so it's like it's
Speaker 5: such a and I forget that because I'll be like,
Speaker 5: you know, like I don't know. And it's like even
Speaker 5: because if I was forced to write my worst idea,
Speaker 5: I would I would make it great, you know what
Speaker 5: I mean. I would just be like, but one, I'd
Speaker 5: be like, Okay, I got to write on that, and
Speaker 5: then I would lean into it and I would start to,
Speaker 5: you know, my imagination would kick in and I'd start
Speaker 5: to come up with ideas. You know.
Speaker 6: Stephen Pressfield once said that you could if you can
Speaker 6: get like a sentence out, you can draw a whole
Speaker 6: novel just from that one sentence you can pull just
Speaker 6: from that one absolutely, and and and he said, I
Speaker 6: oh sorry, go ahead, no, no, no, I'm sorry. I was
Speaker 6: just gonna say that he actually wrote the legend of
Speaker 6: Backer Vance just from that one sentence. He had like
Speaker 6: this moment where he kind of jotted down the sentence
Speaker 6: and then he has pulled the whole novel from.
Speaker 5: That, right, I mean, you know, and that's it's you know,
Speaker 5: do you usually like one little idea, a few little
Speaker 5: words you jot down, and then it's like the idea
Speaker 5: is there, and and and then you're off to the races.
Speaker 5: And but you know, I've done that in classes too,
Speaker 5: where it's like I have people, you know, brainstorm like
Speaker 5: ten ideas for scenes, and then I ask them pick
Speaker 5: the worst idea out of all the ones, and that's
Speaker 5: the one I have them right on, and to show
Speaker 5: them that basically, any anything you can make anything work,
Speaker 5: you know, you do not have to It does not
Speaker 5: have to be the best idea is not have to be.
Speaker 5: I mean that's really why Ford any kind of writing challenges,
Speaker 5: any kind of forty eight hour film. That's where that
Speaker 5: comes from. It's because it's for it's people can give
Speaker 5: given restrictions, you know, they can still have fun and
Speaker 5: be creative and everything else.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and again it's I think it's just when you're
Speaker 6: having fun, because I think that I think that's a
Speaker 6: lot of things that people forget. But I mean I've
Speaker 6: been there too, Gordy, where I'm like, you know, I
Speaker 6: completely forget this is supposed to be fun, and it
Speaker 6: becomes like so definitely serious, and you start kind of
Speaker 6: doubting yourself along the way, and then it becomes a
Speaker 6: little more, a little more, and then by the end
Speaker 6: you're like, this whole thing sucks. I gotta get rid
Speaker 6: of this whole screenplay. I gotta star it all over again.
Speaker 4: And then you can. It becomes a habit that you
Speaker 4: have that you have to break.
Speaker 5: Well, every every screenplay. You know. It's like, you know,
Speaker 5: any kind of master screenwriter or filmmaker you know will
Speaker 5: tell you it's like anything you're working on, you're gonna
Speaker 5: get to a wall. You're gonna get to a place
Speaker 5: where you're like, this is awful, and I'm bored as
Speaker 5: hell and I want to start something else, and there's
Speaker 5: this has so many problems and I don't know how
Speaker 5: to solve them. And and this is like taking forever,
Speaker 5: you know, I mean, it's true despair. And and the
Speaker 5: thing is now I know that like when I get
Speaker 5: to that place, I'm like, okay, I'm making that way,
Speaker 5: Like I know, it's like, okay, I'm actually halfway through,
Speaker 5: you know, like because you are always going to hit
Speaker 5: that spot and it's like and you are, and you
Speaker 5: never get oh man, this is like a this is
Speaker 5: so awesome. You know. It's never like that. You always
Speaker 5: get to a place where like I'm I hate every page,
Speaker 5: I'm like all this stuff. I'm sick of reading this thing.
Speaker 5: I'm like, you have that feeling, and it's like in
Speaker 5: that and when you have that feeling, it's like, oh, well,
Speaker 5: you're getting there, You're almost You're you're probably rounding second.
Speaker 5: Just keep going and then suddenly it will come back
Speaker 5: and you'll fall in love with it again, and you'll
Speaker 5: come up with new ideas and your problem you're you know,
Speaker 5: solve these problems, and you'll have another draft and then
Speaker 5: you'll start and then you'll be like okay, and you'll
Speaker 5: own it all over again, and then you'll really have
Speaker 5: something special. But we have to fight through, you know.
Speaker 5: The boredom, the despair, you know, just the just the
Speaker 5: loathing of the script. You know, at times it comes
Speaker 5: up where you're just like, oh God, like I'm so
Speaker 5: sick of looking at this and thinking about it. I
Speaker 5: think it's sucks or whatever. And you know, you're like
Speaker 5: four drafts.
Speaker 6: And you know, yeah it yeah, just even in the
Speaker 6: outlining stages, you know, sometimes you're like, oh my god,
Speaker 6: what the hell, what the hell was I thinking?
Speaker 4: And uh, you know, yeah.
Speaker 6: One of the things that I've learned too over the
Speaker 6: years is just like little tips or so to speak,
Speaker 6: or if you want to call them a hack.
Speaker 4: Uh you know that's a popular word now, Gordy hack.
Speaker 4: So so everything to hack.
Speaker 6: So one thing I've learned is, uh, is if you
Speaker 6: to start an argument, uh, you know, have one, you
Speaker 6: know obviously that's where conflict comes from, Right, I want
Speaker 6: a Uh you want a and uh we each have
Speaker 6: a different way of how we're going to get it
Speaker 6: or maybe you know what I mean, and then which
Speaker 6: we both need this thing, And that's where this conflict
Speaker 6: comes from, is that you know you want something and
Speaker 6: you can't get it.
Speaker 4: I want something and I can't get it.
Speaker 6: So if you started you know, starting an argument, and
Speaker 6: and that's why I make little notes where I'm going
Speaker 6: back through stuff and just saying myself.
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Speaker 3: and now back to the show.
Speaker 4: This is.
Speaker 6: You know, maybe this is something that I can do better.
Speaker 6: And then you know, like Stephen King once said, if
Speaker 6: you if you take a draft or something, put it
Speaker 6: in your drawer for two weeks or whatever, go back
Speaker 6: to it and that's when you can look at it
Speaker 6: again with fresh eyes.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's great out time changes things and you can
Speaker 5: look at stuff and be like, oh yeah, you know,
Speaker 5: and you can definitely you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 5: that stuff. But yeah, that's great advice.
Speaker 6: So you know, Gody As you took Love Liza and
Speaker 6: you were able to write a full screenplay, you know,
Speaker 6: how how did you go about you know, just sort
Speaker 6: of even pitching it and you know, getting it into
Speaker 6: the right hands to get it produced.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, it was a long process. But you know,
Speaker 5: my brother read it and like I said, he had
Speaker 5: not started shooting Boogie Knights yet, so he wasn't a
Speaker 5: movie star or anything like that. He just young and
Speaker 5: he read it and he loved it. You know, and
Speaker 5: I didn't wasn't giving it to him to be like, hey,
Speaker 5: you want to do this, but he wanted to play
Speaker 5: the guy, and and that's what it is. So we
Speaker 5: attached he was a task. We got a director, we
Speaker 5: got Todd Deliso, and then we started to a couple
Speaker 5: of producers, and then we started to talk to people
Speaker 5: that could add access to money and uh find you know,
Speaker 5: producers that you know, could raise raise actually the money
Speaker 5: to make the movie. And so it took a you know,
Speaker 5: it didn't take that on maybe four years from from
Speaker 5: like the whole period of like starting to think about
Speaker 5: it and people looking at it, you know, and then
Speaker 5: and then then we found some folks and and made it,
Speaker 5: you know, and got was able to get Kathy Bates involved,
Speaker 5: and and that was how we we got the money.
Speaker 5: It was a very low budget at the time. And
Speaker 5: and then you know, it got into Sundance. You know,
Speaker 5: people responded at Sundance to it, and it got to
Speaker 5: Sundance and and then it was bought by Sony Classics
Speaker 5: and they distributed. So yeah, so that was that's sort
Speaker 5: of the journey. And I think it's I mean, somebody
Speaker 5: told me it's on HBO right now, so I think
Speaker 5: if you have HBO you'll be able to watch it.
Speaker 5: And obviously it's on Amazon for rental, but it's but
Speaker 5: Sony ended up Sony Classics. The same guys that were
Speaker 5: involved with Love Wise Are, you know, are still running
Speaker 5: Sony Classics, you know, and uh call Me by Your
Speaker 5: Name is a Sony Classics acquisition that they picked up
Speaker 5: before Sundance. And yeah, so you.
Speaker 6: Know, go do you mentioned Sundance and you mentioned, uh know,
Speaker 6: call Me by your Name and also you know, with
Speaker 6: the Love Liza. I saw an article and I don't
Speaker 6: know if you saw this yet in the La Times
Speaker 6: that says the SPECS script is dead, and what they
Speaker 6: mean is is that Hollywood only wants to make the
Speaker 6: big budget blockbuster movies you know, based on you know,
Speaker 6: superheroes and things like that, or or remakes of classic
Speaker 6: movies and stuff like that, you know, you know, and
Speaker 6: that the SPECS scripts now all good at Sundance. So
Speaker 6: if you want to make an original movie, you know,
Speaker 6: the place to debut it, to show it and get
Speaker 6: it bought, et cetera is Sundance.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 6: I don't know if you've read that article, but but
Speaker 6: do you do you agree with that in today's current
Speaker 6: market for screenwriters that you know, Sundances is where you know,
Speaker 6: independent movies really go.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 5: I mean, Sundance is an incredible market. I mean, you
Speaker 5: get into Sundance, I mean, all eyeballs are there for
Speaker 5: acquisitions and you can, you know, pick up a movie
Speaker 5: that can do considerable performance at the box office and
Speaker 5: also could win Academy Awards. So you know, obviously it's
Speaker 5: a it's a great launch pad now, you know. I mean, look,
Speaker 5: if you write a great screenplay, you know you're gonna
Speaker 5: be able to do a lot of things, you know,
Speaker 5: and that's never going to change the idea of Yeah,
Speaker 5: the what was happening in the nineties. The market's changed,
Speaker 5: there's uh the you know how they but you know,
Speaker 5: but the nineties were also different from the forties, you
Speaker 5: know what I mean. So it's not like some you know,
Speaker 5: like some evil thing has happened. It's just the market changed.
Speaker 5: Storytellers can go different places, but you obviously can you know,
Speaker 5: if you write something special, you know you might be
Speaker 5: able to get you know, involved in television and television
Speaker 5: episodic is obviously sort of that there's another golden age
Speaker 5: U right now in terms of you know, storytelling and television.
Speaker 5: But you know, but then you can also you know,
Speaker 5: write a get Out or write a Lady Bird. Obviously
Speaker 5: these people have access and everything, and there's certain you know,
Speaker 5: opportunities that might have been afforded Greta Gerwig or whatever.
Speaker 5: But the fact is is that you know, three billboards,
Speaker 5: you know, these are all movies that are doing doing well.
Speaker 5: They're going to do well. No one who is involved
Speaker 5: with making them is on is like, wow, I wish
Speaker 5: I hadn't have been involved to get Out. I mean,
Speaker 5: it's like no way and get Out was you know,
Speaker 5: a low lower budget, did not have any kind of
Speaker 5: like Avengers type of budget, and it was. But it
Speaker 5: all goes back to the writing, you know, and you know,
Speaker 5: so just you know, people find you know, writers, and
Speaker 5: people want to find like well spec market or you know,
Speaker 5: make some you know, ideas about and the bottom line
Speaker 5: is it's ultimately an excuse not to do like to
Speaker 5: not to deal with the truth. The truth is is
Speaker 5: that we have to do what we were talking about earlier.
Speaker 5: We have to fight through the boredom to just spare
Speaker 5: keep working on our drafts and make them so good
Speaker 5: that it blows people away. I mean I got my
Speaker 5: short got into Sundance two years ago and got me
Speaker 5: a job, like a feature writing job shortly thereafter. And
Speaker 5: it was all because of the work that I put
Speaker 5: into the short. And I made the short as best
Speaker 5: I knew. I just made it best I could, and
Speaker 5: you know, and it worked. You know, it got into
Speaker 5: Sundayance and people saw it and and land and you know,
Speaker 5: it led to a really nice you know, it helped
Speaker 5: it can help my career and then moved everything forward.
Speaker 5: And you know, somebody would be like, oh, how you
Speaker 5: know it didn't follow any kind of formula or anything
Speaker 5: else in terms of I just decided to make you know,
Speaker 5: I was like, I want to make the short to
Speaker 5: kind of show people I can direct, and and then
Speaker 5: up doing things that I did not anticipate or expect.
Speaker 5: And but I but the thing that I did plan
Speaker 5: on doing was making it as best I could. And
Speaker 5: so everybody, and I know, people were like, well whatever,
Speaker 5: you know, yeah, sure right, it worked really hard on
Speaker 5: your screen place that's really great advice. Well you know what,
Speaker 5: that's what happened. I mean, it's like where do you
Speaker 5: think get out any of these movies, anything that's like
Speaker 5: comes out of nowhere, any you know, anything that like
Speaker 5: it's like interesting, Where do you think it comes from?
Speaker 5: It comes from people like picking up, you know, opening
Speaker 5: it up, getting going with their movie, working really hard
Speaker 5: on it, continuing to take notes, continuing to push it forward.
Speaker 5: That's that's stuff that's never that's that has not changed,
Speaker 5: you know. And yeah, the idea, maybe it's a good
Speaker 5: thing that like, oh, you can't just put together a
Speaker 5: high concept and the movie movie. You know, the studios
Speaker 5: are so scared somebody else is going to get it,
Speaker 5: so they buy something and it's like sort of half
Speaker 5: baked and it's not even that great, and then you
Speaker 5: don't even get to really work on it after they
Speaker 5: bought it. I mean, you know, maybe that's not really
Speaker 5: what we want, you know, Maybe we want a system
Speaker 5: that is like that is exactly like that. It's like right,
Speaker 5: a big sick right right, write something like three billboards,
Speaker 5: come up with something creative, righte, create a dramatic story,
Speaker 5: write a really funny comedy, rte a really scary horror movie,
Speaker 5: and just make it the best you can, you know.
Speaker 5: And I think the market's going to find you anyways,
Speaker 5: and it might be better than if they bought your
Speaker 5: high concept you know a thing fifteen years ago or
Speaker 5: twenty years ago and did that you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the movie you took the Sundance was dog
Speaker 4: Ball correct.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that was a short I had a couple
Speaker 5: of years ago that I that I had there. That's
Speaker 5: also that's on Amazon Prime. So if anybody you know
Speaker 5: wants to see it, it's it's on Amazon Prime. So
Speaker 5: if you have Amazon Prime, you can watch it for free.
Speaker 4: And I'll make sure to link to that in the
Speaker 4: show notes as well.
Speaker 5: So yeah, yeah, just you know, so if you're like,
Speaker 5: you're like, I want to see if this guy that's
Speaker 5: what he's talking about, I would see his crappy short,
Speaker 5: I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go check out his short.
Speaker 5: See if it's good.
Speaker 4: Man, I want to check out on you Gordy Hoffman.
Speaker 5: So yeah, yeah, you gotta you gotta check out you
Speaker 5: gotta watch dog Bowling Man. See like, come on, man,
Speaker 5: check it out. It's nothing like you know, you go
Speaker 5: and check out his movie. You're like, oh man, he
Speaker 5: really but I think people are like dog Will's good.
Speaker 5: It's got some nice, great actor. I mean, the star
Speaker 5: of is excellent, and I think people enjoy it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, I remember, you know, I saw you
Speaker 6: are crowdfunding for that, and I just wanted to ask Gordy,
Speaker 6: you know really quickly, you know what were your experience
Speaker 6: is crowdfunding?
Speaker 4: That movie did?
Speaker 6: Was crowdfunding what you thought it would be? It was
Speaker 6: a little harder, a little easier.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
Speaker 3: and now back to the show.
Speaker 5: Oh man, it's like, I mean, for somebody with low
Speaker 5: self esteem, I mean, it is brutal. You gotta you
Speaker 5: gotta like you know what, you gotta ask people for stuff.
Speaker 5: It's like, oh, I mean it really but you know
Speaker 5: what it was like, I was, I you know, I
Speaker 5: you know, I stumbled onto a lot of things that
Speaker 5: you do well. I mean, it's a whole nother podcast,
Speaker 5: but you know I I you know, I found my
Speaker 5: way through it and people. I had a lot of
Speaker 5: people that wanted to help me and I so I
Speaker 5: had a successful run. And then I hadn't finished the
Speaker 5: script yet, and I like, I raised all this money
Speaker 5: and I was like, oh no, now this has to
Speaker 5: be good and talk about pressure. I was like whoa.
Speaker 5: And but then I you know, then I kept it
Speaker 5: was great. I mean, you know, I really made you
Speaker 5: committed to like making a great movie. It was an
Speaker 5: excellent way to fund the movie. It worked. I mean, man,
Speaker 5: I mean think about all the kickstarter campaigns or crowdfunding
Speaker 5: campaigns you've been involved with, and you know, and fortunately
Speaker 5: for my backers, you know, they backed a film that
Speaker 5: went to sundancee. You know, so they were like they
Speaker 5: were like, wow, this is awesome. And then it went
Speaker 5: and then it went. You know, I played all over
Speaker 5: the country and you know, so people were able to
Speaker 5: most a lot of people that backed it were able
Speaker 5: to see it in a theater, like at a festival,
Speaker 5: and and I was at a lot of those festivals.
Speaker 5: So it was really it was super fun and and
Speaker 5: but yeah, the Kickstarter was a lot of work. I mean,
Speaker 5: you know, it's again it's a whole other podcast. But
Speaker 5: you know, there's a lot there's a few few tips
Speaker 5: for that. But if you ever want to do a Kickstarter, uh, like,
Speaker 5: like as I did two campaigns with dog Ball, one
Speaker 5: at the beginning, one at the end. And yeah, I've
Speaker 5: got a raft of experience about that and I always
Speaker 5: always want to share that because I think there's a
Speaker 5: lot of things that people do and they can avoid
Speaker 5: and and I think it's a great way to find
Speaker 5: the money to make a short film and show people
Speaker 5: that you can write and show people you can direct,
Speaker 5: and you know, I think it's Kickstarter is fantastic. But
Speaker 5: there are some things that I think people get, you know,
Speaker 5: and it usually goes ultimate you know, in many ways,
Speaker 5: it goes back to you know, something that bogs writers down,
Speaker 5: bogs filmmakers down, is a lack of patience. I think
Speaker 5: people are impatient to launch their campaign. They're impatient to shoot,
Speaker 5: so they don't want to like do another draft, they
Speaker 5: don't want to write another movie. They want to get
Speaker 5: to shooting. And I think with Kickstarter, it's like you
Speaker 5: just kind of want to launch it. You know, You're
Speaker 5: like I want to Okay, we're ready, you know, and
Speaker 5: then you launch it and you know, you don't really
Speaker 5: have your ducks in a row. You're not really ready,
Speaker 5: and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, you know,
Speaker 5: like I'm like, no one is no one, I don't
Speaker 5: really I'm not really getting the money I thought I
Speaker 5: was gonna you know, And I think it goes back
Speaker 5: to having some patience and you know, preparing and doing
Speaker 5: the right work and getting it all ready and doing
Speaker 5: exactly what you would do if you were, you know,
Speaker 5: wanting to shoot a script, you know, just taking the
Speaker 5: time to do it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, I crowdfunded way back when, in like
Speaker 6: twenty ten, and then I did it again in twenty eleven,
Speaker 6: and you know, it was explaining people what crowdfunding was
Speaker 6: it that time, because you know, not you know, nowadays
Speaker 6: everybody has a Kickstarter.
Speaker 4: It seems I think some people.
Speaker 6: Get a little burned out, right, But I mean when
Speaker 6: you're actually doing it, Gordy, I mean I hear you.
Speaker 6: I was right there with you, because it feels, you know,
Speaker 6: you're like, my god, is this seeing even gonna be possible?
Speaker 6: You know, are people you know, because everyone will tell
Speaker 6: you what I what I usually do is and this
Speaker 6: is really quickly bring out of time.
Speaker 4: I call it the one percent rule.
Speaker 6: And so if you ask one hundred people to donate
Speaker 6: to your crowdfunding campaign, ninety nine everyone everyone's gonna tell
Speaker 6: you yes, but ninety nine won't do it, and that
Speaker 6: one person will actually go through, and and and give
Speaker 6: you some money. So if you use that one percent rule,
Speaker 6: that's what the that's the multiplication that you're gonna have
Speaker 6: to do to make sure that you have your movie.
Speaker 6: So your multiplication your and your your division. And then
Speaker 6: if you you you figure you have to tell that
Speaker 6: many people. So if you know that you're gonna need
Speaker 6: maybe like I don't know, twenty thousand dollars, twenty thousand dollars,
Speaker 6: you have to kind of can you know, figure out
Speaker 6: how many people that you're gonna have to talk to
Speaker 6: in order to get that done, because you know, everyone
Speaker 6: does what's called Chinese math, and they're like, well, if
Speaker 6: I had twenty thousand people each give me a dollar,
Speaker 6: i'd have one have them all the money.
Speaker 4: Or I need only need one person to give me
Speaker 4: twenty thousand dollars, you know what I mean.
Speaker 6: So it's kind of like, you know, using all that
Speaker 6: to your advantage, you have to figure out, you know, okay,
Speaker 6: these are where I could go, these are the family,
Speaker 6: these are their friends, they can give me thirty percent.
Speaker 6: You know. It's stuff like that that you know you've
Speaker 6: learned as you as you go about.
Speaker 4: Doing all this stuff.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's a you know there's a lot of
Speaker 5: stuff going on with it, but I think it I
Speaker 5: mean it boils down to content, how you present you know,
Speaker 5: your idea, and I think there's a lot of pitfalls
Speaker 5: with that. I figure people think, oh, I should make
Speaker 5: a four minute video. No one in the world has
Speaker 5: ever watched a four minute video. No one watches four
Speaker 5: minute videos. Ever. It's like, you know, and it's like,
Speaker 5: let me explain it, let me bring everybody in. Let's
Speaker 5: talk for seven minutes about what the movie's gonna be about.
Speaker 5: No oney want to Nobody wants to watch that. You know.
Speaker 5: It's like so there's these things that you sort of realize.
Speaker 5: It's like, you know, make a forty five second video,
Speaker 5: you know, and and like write a little bit about it.
Speaker 5: People want to read it. They're going to find it.
Speaker 5: But basically, just give them a little video reminder. Make
Speaker 5: sure you have a ton of rewards. Make sure you
Speaker 5: have a lot of different ways for people to get in.
Speaker 5: If you only have one twenty five dollars award and
Speaker 5: then the next one seventy five dollars, you're gonna be
Speaker 5: in trouble, you know. But if you have five different
Speaker 5: twenty five dollars awards. You know, some people don't want DVDs,
Speaker 5: you know, they don't want a poster, you know, And
Speaker 5: it's like if the only thing at that money level
Speaker 5: is a poster, and then they're like, I don't want
Speaker 5: a poster, you know. But if you're like, oh, you know,
Speaker 5: I won't give you anything at twenty five dollars, you
Speaker 5: get people signed up for that because they don't want
Speaker 5: anything nail to them. So I mean, it's like, it's amazing.
Speaker 5: I mean, all these things that I sort of learned
Speaker 5: while I was doing it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's it's all the things, you know, speaking of
Speaker 6: the video really quickly. I know, we were almost out
Speaker 6: of time, but really, but I once had a friend
Speaker 6: of mine hit his crowdfunding campaign was not going anywhere,
Speaker 6: and he said, could you you know, he goes, Dave,
Speaker 6: I've know you've done this before, would you mind looking
Speaker 6: at this for me? And I looked at it and
Speaker 6: and Gordie he had him he had like a nine
Speaker 6: or ten minute trailer so to speak, and it was
Speaker 6: him talking on the couch.
Speaker 4: I said, my god, I said, what could you pop it?
Speaker 6: There was no like other shots, There was no like
Speaker 6: footage of the movie or even concept uard or the
Speaker 6: storyboard or nothing, even the screenplay. For godsakes, it was
Speaker 6: literally him on a couch talking for like ten minutes,
Speaker 6: and I said, dude, I know you and I don't
Speaker 6: want to do any money to this.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's really I mean
Speaker 5: I learned that like right when I was doing it.
Speaker 5: They I mean somebody, I was reading a blog and
Speaker 5: somebody was like, we we watched we watched videos for
Speaker 5: six months, like we just studied Kickstarter campaigns for six months.
Speaker 5: And I was like, wow, okay, and they were like,
Speaker 5: and we ended up making a movie. We ended our
Speaker 5: video ended up being two minutes or a minute and
Speaker 5: a half or something like that. And they said, and
Speaker 5: we should have made it shorter. And I was like
Speaker 5: when I heard that, I was like, whoa, And so
Speaker 5: my you know, my video is seventy seconds. I think
Speaker 5: it's like a minute. And I made it like a
Speaker 5: deconstruct I did like this. I just came up with
Speaker 5: a quick concept and went out and shot it, and
Speaker 5: it was it was a little bit slapped together, but
Speaker 5: it was like I just I was like, I'm gonna
Speaker 5: sort of do the anti Kickstarter video and not really
Speaker 5: it was different, but people love the video, you know,
Speaker 5: and it was like it was people really responded to
Speaker 5: the video because it just reminded people like, oh, Gorty's talented,
Speaker 5: is funny or whatever. You know, they just said enough
Speaker 5: and then you know so, and then I just I
Speaker 5: And I also believe I had a lot of rewards.
Speaker 5: I had creative rewards. They were funny to read, and
Speaker 5: I had a ton of different ones, you know, not
Speaker 5: so many that people couldn't make a decision, but I
Speaker 5: just had a lot of ways for people to participate.
Speaker 5: And I also just remember that it's like just remember
Speaker 5: not everybody wants a DVD, And if you apply that
Speaker 5: principle to every war that you give, then you're gonna
Speaker 5: come up with alternatives and you'll be surprised that people
Speaker 5: will actually they'll take the other thing. And you'll be like, oh,
Speaker 5: they don't even want a DVD or they don't even
Speaker 5: want to a download, or you know, they just want
Speaker 5: to this, you know, they want to actually have that
Speaker 5: or whatever. And but yeah, the videos, you know, I
Speaker 5: don't think I've ever watched a video, I mean anything
Speaker 5: that's over like literally and everyone you go on there
Speaker 5: I was like four minutes long. Five It's like, you
Speaker 5: kidding me. I mean, no one watches, nobody wants Nobody
Speaker 5: watches that, not even you know, not that anyone related
Speaker 5: to them. Nobody, nobody watches. You know. It's just too long, man,
Speaker 5: It's too long, dude. Okay, come on, man.
Speaker 6: The best crowdfunding video I've ever seen, Gordy. This guy
Speaker 6: actually pretended he was kidnapped and they filmed it and
Speaker 6: he was actually and his guys were like, well, you know,
Speaker 6: you need this money, and he would goes, well, I'll
Speaker 6: get it, and they're like, who's gonna give you this money?
Speaker 6: He said, I'll go to crowd I'll go to Kickstarter
Speaker 6: and or Indy go go. And he goes, I'll ask
Speaker 6: the money on that and he goes. They go, really
Speaker 6: you can do that, and they That was the pitch
Speaker 6: and it was actually it tied into the movie as
Speaker 6: well because it was about a kidnapping, so it was
Speaker 6: actually pretty creative.
Speaker 4: And it was the body by Kenny G.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
Speaker 3: and now back to the show.
Speaker 6: Not not the musician, by the way, it was, but
Speaker 6: it was another another Kenny G. But but but I'll
Speaker 6: link to that everyone in the show notes but it
Speaker 6: was actually a really really good, uh good crowdfunding campaign
Speaker 6: and he ended up making the movie. But but you know, Gordy,
Speaker 6: I know we're running out of time. I just enclosing, Gordy, Uh,
Speaker 6: I just want to talk about Blue Cat again. I
Speaker 6: know Blue Cat it's open for submissions right now for
Speaker 6: the twenty eighteen season. So if you could, you know,
Speaker 6: just in the in a few minutes we have left,
Speaker 6: could you just you know, give us a little bit
Speaker 6: more information about Blue Cat.
Speaker 5: Well, everybody should know that we have really great readers
Speaker 5: and we provide written analysis on every script that enters.
Speaker 5: So if you enter Bluecat, you will get notes back
Speaker 5: on your script. Google read your entire script and you
Speaker 5: will get notes back. So that's that's a lot of
Speaker 5: people still don't know about that, but Blue Cat's been
Speaker 5: doing that for you know, over fifteen years now. But
Speaker 5: that's that's that's one of our traditions and we do
Speaker 5: that as a part of the entry fee. We accept
Speaker 5: features shorts pilots both hour and a half hour, and
Speaker 5: we are also accepting short films this year, the first
Speaker 5: time we've ever done that. So we're gonna have a
Speaker 5: screening next June of the top short films that we receive.
Speaker 5: The deadline's February twentieth, and the next I'm not sure
Speaker 5: when you're airing this, but February twentieth is the is
Speaker 5: the next is the final deadline. And you know you
Speaker 5: can google us and sure you guys will have the
Speaker 5: links for that. But yeah, I mean, and if you're
Speaker 5: ready to submit, you'd like to get some notes, Bluecats
Speaker 5: great for that. If you've got if you're really really
Speaker 5: excited about your script, please send it to us. If
Speaker 5: you're still like knowing you needed to work on it,
Speaker 5: then work on it. Fend it to Nichols or Austin
Speaker 5: later of the year and you can you can get
Speaker 5: back to us in the future. But you know, just
Speaker 5: use Bluecat use screenplay contests to you know, to help
Speaker 5: you and encourage you to develop yourself. And and only
Speaker 5: when that happens, you know, should you be using screenplay contests.
Speaker 5: But yeah, we're really excited. We you know, we have
Speaker 5: a great such a fantastic group of readers. I'm very
Speaker 5: proud of them, and and and everyone really loves our feedback.
Speaker 5: So you know, looking looking forward to meeting the next
Speaker 5: winner and you know, the next winners and uh and yeah,
Speaker 5: so I'm looking forward to getting your scripts.
Speaker 2: Yeah and uh.
Speaker 6: Like I said, I've entered group blue Cap before and
Speaker 6: I really like the feedback that I got. And like
Speaker 6: I said, gord to you, somebody I have one to
Speaker 6: have on here before because you have you have the right,
Speaker 6: you know, added to the personality to run a screwing competition.
Speaker 6: You're you're not only the founder, but you're also like
Speaker 6: this brand ambassador for it. And you know you have
Speaker 6: that right attitude for it.
Speaker 4: Man.
Speaker 6: And uh, I and uh, you know that's why it's
Speaker 6: so cool having you are on Gordy exent every interview.
Speaker 4: You know what I mean.
Speaker 6: It's like you're the type of guy like nothing bothers you,
Speaker 6: you know what I mean, You're just like you just
Speaker 6: go with the flow.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Well I appreciate that, man. I mean hopefully I
Speaker 5: can remember that sometimes when I'm a traffic out in
Speaker 5: Los Angeles. But yeah, I uh look forward to being
Speaker 5: back on again. Man. It was a great talk. I
Speaker 5: could we could probably keep going. I mean, so if
Speaker 5: you ever want me back on, I'd love to talk
Speaker 5: about anything. You'd you know, and want to get into
Speaker 5: there's a lot of stuff and the just a great
Speaker 5: interview and love having love being.
Speaker 6: On oh and I'd love to have you back on
Speaker 6: Gordy and and before we uh we we sort of
Speaker 6: cut this off.
Speaker 4: Where can people find you out online?
Speaker 5: Well, you can find me if you Google, you can
Speaker 5: find my probably my Instagram account and I you know,
Speaker 5: I don't really tweet a lot, but I do have
Speaker 5: a Twitter account, and you know, you can reach out
Speaker 5: to me through Blue It's pretty easy to find Blue
Speaker 5: Cat and you can reach out to me the air
Speaker 5: and stuff. And I'm also you know, one of the
Speaker 5: things that we do where there's a lot of interaction
Speaker 5: is we have something called the Blue Cat Writers Group
Speaker 5: and that's on Facebook and it's a closed group but
Speaker 5: pretty much anyone who wants to join just gets approved
Speaker 5: and we always have weekly discussion questions, and you know,
Speaker 5: there's a lot of interaction and it's very positive and
Speaker 5: it's not overwhelming, and there's not a lot of you know,
Speaker 5: extra stuff in there. It's really you know, it's really
Speaker 5: about the craft of writing and sort of give and
Speaker 5: take around that. So that's another place that people can find.
Speaker 6: Me and I'll make sure everyone to link to all
Speaker 6: of Gordy's social media links in the show notes. But
Speaker 6: Gordie Hoffman Man, it has been a blast talking to you,
Speaker 6: and I definitely would like to have you back on
Speaker 6: because we you know, like I like, we were just saying,
Speaker 6: you know, we could we could talk for another whole
Speaker 6: another hour or.
Speaker 5: Two, right, Well, looking forward to it, Dave.
Speaker 2: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
Speaker 2: a great job on this episode. If you want to
Speaker 2: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
Speaker 2: head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
Speaker 2: Forward slash four eleven. Thank you so much for listening
Speaker 2: to guys, as always, keep on writing no matter what.
Speaker 4: I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting
Speaker 1: dot tv.