WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:03.680 Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gaming Person. 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.839 I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping 3 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:11.000 those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you 4 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:14.439 to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show. 5 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:20.120 Five chief, ten one, our folks, welcome back to the podcast. 6 00:00:20.120 --> 00:00:24.039 I'm very excited to have back Akila. Riley Richardson Aequila, 7 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:24.640 welcome back. 8 00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:29.280 Hye goodness, Hi all right. 9 00:00:29.960 --> 00:00:34.039 Kila is a couple therapists, published researcher, and relational healing 10 00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:38.119 facilitator with over sixteen years of experience. She specializes in 11 00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:42.000 working with couples, including those practicing consensual non monogamy and 12 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:46.520 supporting sexual and racial minorities across the Caribbean and internationally. 13 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:50.520 She's a founder of bipoc Relational Healing Institute and creator 14 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:54.799 of the Pride Model. She's the author of the recently 15 00:00:54.799 --> 00:01:00.399 published Marginalized Couples and Therapy Interventions for Healing from Systemic Trauma, 16 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:05.359 which offers culturally responsive frameworks and practical tools for working 17 00:01:05.359 --> 00:01:11.519 with BIPOP and LGBTQI couples impacted by systemic oppression. Articula 18 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:13.480 obviously just a little bit about you. But before we 19 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:16.439 go and share with the listeners where you're from originally 20 00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:17.760 and where you are currently. 21 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:22.480 I am from Trinidad and Tobago and I'm currently still 22 00:01:22.519 --> 00:01:23.760 in Trinidad and Tobago. 23 00:01:24.519 --> 00:01:26.920 Okay, this is right? How on where I currently am? 24 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:29.799 All right, So we're going to get into the book. 25 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:33.959 Before we do, just give our listeners, maybe who didn't 26 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:39.239 hear the first episode you're on, just let's give them 27 00:01:39.319 --> 00:01:42.040 the nutshell how all this started for you? How you 28 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:43.040 got into this field. 29 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:48.719 I got into the field so I was trained in 30 00:01:48.760 --> 00:01:53.519 both psychology and social work, and then after that I 31 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:56.040 just did a lot of week and couples therapy and 32 00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:59.680 trauma work. And I felt that as I was sitting 33 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:03.319 with couples and I was sitting with trauma and understanding 34 00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:06.760 my background and social work, that there needed to be 35 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:09.599 more space and more room for the reality of people's 36 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:13.400 systems around them, not just their families systems, but the 37 00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:20.840 wider systems of racism, homophobia, xenophobia, ableism, all of these things. 38 00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:26.800 So I noticing that that felt like, let's say a gap. Yeah, 39 00:02:27.879 --> 00:02:30.439 I recognized I wanted to deepen my work there. 40 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:34.599 Yeah, And so that's why I got into it. 41 00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:40.280 Let's go even a step back. How did therapy psychology? 42 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:41.800 How when did that pull you? 43 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:46.639 At the age of about eighteen, I was going to 44 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:50.360 actually head in the direction of business studies and business management. 45 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:55.240 And I remember just sensing at the age of eighteen 46 00:02:55.759 --> 00:03:01.479 that I wanted to make a big shift. Yeah, I 47 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:03.960 wanted to make a big shift because I felt in 48 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:07.319 my life i'd be working with youth at one stage, Yeah, 49 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:10.599 and doing therapy with youth, and that isn't a huge 50 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:12.599 part of my practice right now, it would be quite honest. 51 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:18.439 But I did make this pivot, this direct, this direct 52 00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:21.919 turn into this, and I'm never very regreted it, you know. 53 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:24.439 And I think that. 54 00:03:26.439 --> 00:03:30.520 Therapy as the years roll by, therapy became a deeper 55 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:34.919 love for me. Yeah, as the years roll by, I think, 56 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:39.479 especially let's say, late in my twenties, when I started 57 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:41.840 to get more into more the thirties, I should say, 58 00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:43.439 when I get when I started to get more into 59 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:47.800 neuroscience and understanding the human brain. Yeah, I think I 60 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:55.240 really I really appreciated that. I really appreciated being in 61 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:57.319 this space where I could support and help people with 62 00:03:57.400 --> 00:03:59.039 an understanding of the human brain. 63 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:03.360 So you're in the field, you're sitting with people, you're 64 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:06.840 working with people, and at some point or over the 65 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:11.680 course of a period of time, you realize there's a gap. 66 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:19.040 What did that feel like for you? When get specific 67 00:04:19.079 --> 00:04:24.399 about I mean, obviously you're a person of color, one 68 00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:28.000 would think this is easy for you. You're checking all 69 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:28.680 the boxes. 70 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:29.759 Yeah. 71 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:30.560 Yeah. 72 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:34.839 I think when I was being trained in various couple 73 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:41.199 of modalities and assumptions were being me that seem too 74 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:45.120 global and too universal. And as I was looking at 75 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:49.759 the various modalities, I felt that I was not hearing 76 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:56.399 enough about people's systemic realities, particularly marginalize people's systemic realities. 77 00:04:56.439 --> 00:04:58.639 And I think it was during all of those various 78 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:02.560 trainings that I felt that that voice was missing. And 79 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:05.720 then when I thought about myself, especially as a black woman, 80 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:09.079 and the way that I present, I realize that, you 81 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:13.680 know what, some of my of what works in my body, yeah, 82 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:19.560 doesn't show up, you know, or doesn't it's not made 83 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:25.800 present in the in the trainings. Yeah, I realized that 84 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:30.199 I needed to be vocal since I myself was having 85 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:32.879 my own experience of invisibility in these models. 86 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:36.399 When you say, assumptions were being made such as what. 87 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:41.160 That we also, for example, there's a understandings of what 88 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:46.120 intimacy looks like, or there's at understandings of of what 89 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:51.920 is healthy communication. Yeah, that does not take into consideration 90 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:55.600 what we carry in our bodies. So for example, you know, 91 00:05:55.639 --> 00:05:59.560 there's this stereotype of the angry black woman. Yeah, and 92 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:02.959 if you're if you're communicating in an aggressive way, right, 93 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:05.879 or in a very stern way, their assumptions me that 94 00:06:05.879 --> 00:06:08.680 you're not being relational, you're not being caring, without an 95 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:12.399 understanding of our historical realities and the ways in which 96 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:15.319 aggression has been a tool of survival, the ways in 97 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:19.399 which systemic trauma right feeds aggression right in people, and 98 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:22.839 that could then cross over and spill over into relationship. 99 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:23.759 You know. 100 00:06:23.959 --> 00:06:27.000 For example, I was also looking at things like, you know, 101 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:32.560 vulnerability and this assumption with what vulnerability means, right, without 102 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:36.199 an understanding of the fact that vulnerability looks different for 103 00:06:36.279 --> 00:06:41.000 people of color, for us, sometimes vulnerability can put you 104 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:46.680 at severe risk, right, because in our systemic reality, vulnerability 105 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:49.759 can also be can be an opportunity for harm. And 106 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:53.560 I felt that these things were not being taken into account, 107 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:57.319 the ways in which having to present yourself in a 108 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:00.240 certain way to survive any wider system. Those things then 109 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:03.519 crossover and come into the relationship. I felt that those 110 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:09.040 things were not being adequately addressed right in our common 111 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:12.480 or popular conventional models, and so I felt the need 112 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:15.279 to make space for that, you know. Interestingly enough, I 113 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:18.959 was reflecting just now on a client of mine who 114 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:23.959 is LGBTQI, and that client was you know, talking about 115 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.480 just and this client is mentioned in the book all right, 116 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:31.959 because I so I have permission to share this person 117 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:35.600 mentioned just feeling this heightened sense of rejection in their relationship, 118 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:39.040 and that's this degree of rejection sensitivity was actually coming 119 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:43.680 from the wider system and sipping in and finding itself 120 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:46.319 sleeping in, sorry, into the relationship. So I felt that 121 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:50.160 these external realities were not finding themselves in the relationship 122 00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:55.000 in models, but our understanding of people and the simulation 123 00:07:55.079 --> 00:07:58.079 of patterns which were being seen as unhealthy that were 124 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:00.920 just a reaction to historical and systemic trauma. 125 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:05.839 You you mentioned vulnerabile, vulnerability, and of course that is 126 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:10.319 kind of a buzzword in our culture right now, and 127 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:15.160 I think in therapy more specifically, and a lot of 128 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:21.600 people use that in kind of a currency way we 129 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:29.639 need to be more vulnerable. Specifically, how might that be 130 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:36.919 tone deaf when used for marginalized people? 131 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:38.960 How can current therapist be tone deaf? 132 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:47.120 Is what you're asking the word vulnerability vulne vulnerability. 133 00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:53.679 I think it assumes that vulnerability is a strength, yeah, 134 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:55.480 and openness is. 135 00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:57.399 A strength, And. 136 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:06.360 It does not take in consideration that vulnerability in systems 137 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:12.639 that are designed to harm, yeah, can actually put you 138 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:13.720 at great deal of risk. 139 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:15.879 And I think that there are. 140 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:21.200 Understandings of what vulnerability looks like, and it looks different 141 00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:22.960 for different kinds of people. 142 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:29.159 Yeah. For some people, just naming and being brave is vulnerability. Yeah. 143 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:35.039 For some people actually being able to actually withholding sometimes 144 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:38.399 as vulnerability. I know that might sound strange, Yeah, but 145 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:41.759 there are different ways which it manifests for different kinds 146 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:46.399 of people. There's no standard definition of vulnerability. Yeah, I 147 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:50.559 can say for example, for me as a black woman, 148 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:53.720 like I remember reading I can't about the text, but 149 00:09:53.799 --> 00:09:55.879 in this text talking about the ways in which black 150 00:09:55.879 --> 00:10:00.519 women on the plantation were taught to interact with their children, right, 151 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:04.360 and that on the plantation they felt that they had 152 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:07.120 to be harsh and shame their children in order to 153 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:11.120 protect them, because if they would criticize their children or 154 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:13.440 demean them, it means that they protect them, to protect 155 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:14.519 their trial from being. 156 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:16.279 Taken from mass by master. 157 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:16.759 Sorry. 158 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:21.960 And so we're seeing there that even the ability to 159 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:25.919 express love and the vulnerable about one's tender feelings, right, 160 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:29.960 could be seen as being risky. Nor imagine that particular 161 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:32.679 way of being being passed on from generation to generation 162 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:35.120 to generation. It would then mean that we have to 163 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:40.919 construct our own understanding of vulnerability, yeah, our own feelings 164 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:50.799 around vulnerability. Yeah, And so I I conventional therapies sometimes 165 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:55.000 don't take into consideration these historical shapings, yeah, and the 166 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:58.600 way to which these things have to be me which 167 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:01.720 these things are transformed time because of the reality of 168 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:05.919 one's circumstances. So yes, I think for me, whenever I'm 169 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:10.519 sitting with people, especially people who experience historical trauma, right, 170 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:16.559 I am very mindful of what is their circumstance and 171 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:19.440 how do I really find the ask? 172 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:20.399 So, if I'm. 173 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:26.200 Talking about sharing vulnerability, bravery, unsetting boundaries, even setting boundaries 174 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:29.960 can be hard in a system where boundaries are not 175 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:33.960 boundaries are a relational risk in the outside world, right, 176 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:37.360 Sometimes having a lot of boundaries keeps you safe. Sometimes 177 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:39.919 opening up yourself keeps you safe when you are a 178 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:43.600 marginalized person, right, we don't have the ability to always 179 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:46.399 live in our truth because times living in your truth 180 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:49.399 can get you killed. Sometimes standing up and saying no 181 00:11:49.399 --> 00:11:53.240 one being assertive can get you killed literally. And then 182 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:56.279 when a therapist is asking you to direct healthy boundaries 183 00:11:56.279 --> 00:11:59.559 with your partner, you know they're making an assumption that 184 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:02.600 you you have a tool within you that is being 185 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:05.679 disrupted and discredited by the external system all of the time. 186 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:12.320 Wow, it's it feels like a whole shifting of not 187 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:19.480 just perspective, like a paradigm shift. Yes, how one needs 188 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:23.679 a therapist needs to walk into the room with a 189 00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:30.679 worldview that needs to be rejiggered and reformed and reframed. 190 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:33.120 Yes, yes, I mean that's. 191 00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:38.799 That is what what does that mean to be? And 192 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:43.200 obviously this is different for different people, but I can imagine. 193 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:46.519 I can't imagine what it means to be a client 194 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:51.240 who maybe is marginalized and working with a therapists who 195 00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:55.399 doesn't have this, maybe has quote unquote good intentions but 196 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:58.080 is not informed in this way. 197 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:03.039 Yeah, I've so, and you know, I you know it's 198 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:06.480 I remember working with a client once and we were 199 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:09.960 speaking about the goal setting and imagination, and she said, 200 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:12.840 I never thought I had space to imagine. 201 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:14.480 I was too busy trying to survive. 202 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:18.480 Yeah, and I'm using that as an example of the 203 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:21.559 ways in which sometimes when we make asks of clients 204 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:23.759 and they're like, but this is not a part of 205 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:24.639 my reality. 206 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:26.799 Yeah, this is. 207 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:29.840 Not a part of In fact, your ask is even 208 00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:34.200 violating me. And make no apology, I mean, make no mistakes. Sorry, 209 00:13:34.279 --> 00:13:36.960 I myself as a because I'm a su stender person. 210 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:40.159 I work with the LGBT community, but i'm cisgender and 211 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:44.159 I too have made errors coming from a very privileged 212 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:48.240 SIS place. Yeah, there are certain I remember once working 213 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:53.960 with a trans woman who was and this too is 214 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:56.759 part of in my work, I do a lot of 215 00:13:56.799 --> 00:13:59.399 recordings of videos, et cetera. But people who give full 216 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:03.639 permission to recorded given formed consent for teaching purposes. And 217 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:07.279 in one of my videos, I was working with a 218 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:13.399 couple a trans woman and a non binary and a 219 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:16.440 non binary partner, and in order to hold space with 220 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:19.759 a non binary partner wrong issues surrounding race, I asked 221 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:22.440 a trans woman to just contain a bit, and because 222 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:26.639 they were emoting a lot and the non binary partner 223 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:28.799 felt that they couldn't share. So we're just working on 224 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:33.120 containment a little bit, and not realizing after that I 225 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:36.759 had wounded that person because they felt as a trans woman, 226 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:40.200 they had experienced so many times in their life when 227 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:42.000 they were told that they could not emote, or they 228 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:45.600 should not emote because only women, only SIS women could emote. 229 00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:49.480 And there I was blind to what I was asking, 230 00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:52.480 not taking into consideration this person's reality. 231 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:54.639 So I want to say that it's. 232 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:59.200 Not bad, evil or or ill intentioned therapists who have 233 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:00.000 blind spots. 234 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.279 We all do your privilege. 235 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:08.759 Right, what I call your relational privilege, inevitably creates blind spots, 236 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:13.799 and so your own humility and openness becomes imperative. As 237 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:17.559 a result of that, your willingness to listen and not 238 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:24.320 just tolerate but accept include that becomes necessary. 239 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:26.159 Yeah. 240 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:29.720 You in the in the some of the beginning pages 241 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:33.799 of this book, you ask some amazing questions. One is 242 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.360 one is fill in the blanks here, correct me if 243 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:43.120 I'm wrong. But you start to say, you know, many 244 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:48.960 many therapists begin from a very uh you know, beneficial 245 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:55.320 way asking questions such as, you know, it's not what's 246 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.600 wrong with you, it's but what happened to you? And 247 00:15:59.080 --> 00:16:02.440 there's you you say, there's a kind of a more 248 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:09.279 pertinent question than that, and it's what's continuing happening to you? 249 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:11.360 Talk talk to us about that difference. 250 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:17.720 Yeah, and that's the wisdom of FEMA Bryanta, And yeah, 251 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:20.279 I'm so glad you raised that because I'm thinking about 252 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:23.120 it now. You know, sometimes when we're working in therapy 253 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:27.879 with couples or individuals, we work with them as if 254 00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:33.200 the thirty trauma has passed, it's done, and you know, 255 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:37.919 we want to we act like it's finished. And the 256 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:41.159 thing with systemic trauma is that it's continuous, it's pervasive, 257 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:46.360 it's chronic, and that has to be taken into account 258 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:50.080 because as I work with someone that I might see 259 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:52.120 a shift and then the week after this person is 260 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:55.720 back in the same place because the system is continuing, 261 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:59.559 it's onslaught. And I think that means we have to 262 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:02.320 really in how we do trauma work. There is no 263 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:07.119 endpoint and completion. And I know, for for a product, 264 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:09.240 I think one of the things about our industries are 265 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:13.480 a very product oriented as opposed to process oriented. Yeah, 266 00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:15.720 we want we have all these models and things that 267 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:17.400 we do, and then we assume at the end of 268 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:20.839 it we should see less of this and less of that, 269 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:23.160 and we have always indicators and markers. And I have 270 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:26.160 to say, for me, I've struggled in various settings with 271 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:28.759 that kind of way of understanding human beings that you know, 272 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:31.680 if the work is done quick a bit, well there 273 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:34.200 there'll be less reports of this and less reports of that. 274 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:38.440 And you know it is. 275 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:45.079 It's important, I think for us to reimagine trauma therapy. 276 00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:48.160 And you know, I was a center Robert Schwartz the 277 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:50.880 other day in a trauma training with therapy with them, 278 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:54.000 and he was saying, you know, we have to this 279 00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:55.680 is a paraphrase, but we have to give up the 280 00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:58.720 need to be helpful. And that provocative statement stayed with 281 00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:02.920 me because we're so preoccupied with being helpful and getting 282 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:07.559 outcomes and getting results that over time we myself included, 283 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:12.000 I'm not I'm certainly not excluded from this. Over time 284 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.599 we forget how to just be with people in the 285 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:19.480 reality in which they live. Yeah, and to not see 286 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:22.720 a person as something to shift and retool, but a 287 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:26.200 person to just be with and support. And support takes 288 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:29.440 different shapes, especially when you're working with trauma therapy, and 289 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:31.759 we have to remove and see notions of things like 290 00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:35.559 resistance and all these different things. Those things have to 291 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:39.839 shift and change when people are continuously being affected. In fact, 292 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:42.839 when people I think one of the reasons we need 293 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:48.559 to shift this is because when persons see themselves being 294 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:53.079 affected in this particular way, Yeah, you will see that 295 00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:56.480 Today's if they're not changing or they're not feeling better, 296 00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:59.440 they might begin to think, oh, they're not working hard enough. Yeah, 297 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:01.079 And I have to say to people, it's not that 298 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:03.799 you're not working hard enough. You're being affected by a 299 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:07.200 wider system continuously. 300 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:12.640 Right right when you sit down, when you sat down 301 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:17.119 to write this book, what did you want to say? 302 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:19.279 How did you put it together? What was important for 303 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:20.680 you to get into this? 304 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:25.599 What was important for me to get into this? If 305 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:31.000 I'm doing very transparent, I didn't want to put forward 306 00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:33.039 something that seemed like the answer. 307 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:35.880 Yeah, I. 308 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:42.359 Want to be very honest, guy, this is my understanding 309 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:44.279 of how to do this work. But I am not 310 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:46.839 proposing that this is the way to do the work. 311 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:50.960 I don't think we can reduce human beings to just 312 00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:55.440 being amenable to our ways of working. And I wanted 313 00:19:55.519 --> 00:20:01.240 to make sure that in this work I held I 314 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:03.359 continue to help it, I continue to hold sorry a 315 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:14.319 curious position, yeah, and it I wanted it to be 316 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:19.400 accepted that this work is hard, and as I rumble 317 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:24.640 with people through the work, I take my time and 318 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:29.599 take a not knowing stance, take a power with stances, 319 00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:32.839 as Julianna Taylor Show will talk about often in her 320 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:38.599 own work. Because it feel like I'm rambling a little bit, 321 00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:41.640 But what I'm trying to say is that a huge 322 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:46.920 part of my ethos is liberation and I cannot hope 323 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:50.720 for liberation without practicing liberation in a therapeutic space. And 324 00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:54.440 the way I practice that is with being curious seen 325 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:58.920 in an egalitarian relationship, just being in that. 326 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:08.839 Yeah, when you began work seeing clients, talk about how 327 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:13.400 your perspective has shifted now with the knowledge that you have, 328 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:18.319 and you put into this book how you would sit 329 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:19.079 with clients. 330 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:23.880 I sit in the liminal space better. The liminal space 331 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:26.359 is the between space, and in the book I talk 332 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:30.039 about that, right, I talk about grief and liminality. I 333 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:32.680 talk about the ways in which when you've put forward 334 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:37.319 all the best efforts and it's not finding, it's not 335 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:39.799 taking shape, it's not taking whole. Because of the wider 336 00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:40.960 system and what it's doing. 337 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:42.279 I've learned to. 338 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:48.400 Sit in that grief with tendinness for myself and tenderness 339 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:51.000 for the person. I think my clients have taught me that. 340 00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:55.200 My clients have taught me humility. Yeah, they've taught me 341 00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:58.200 this thing may not work and it's okay because there's 342 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:01.400 something else happening. And they've taught me and you know, 343 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.000 I've spoken before a little bit about this, but they've 344 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:09.119 taught me the reality of discovery. Yeah, that therapy is 345 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:12.559 a place to discover. Therapy is a place to learn. 346 00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:15.720 Therapy is not just a place to take models and impose. 347 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:17.880 Therapy is a learning space. 348 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:18.920 Yeah. 349 00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:22.519 So even I'd say I published this book and then 350 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:25.039 there's some ideas that came to me after that I 351 00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:27.640 wish I had there before, Because as I meet with 352 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:30.359 people and I think through the work, I'm constantly learning. 353 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:35.559 So therapy and living and teaching and training helps me 354 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:39.880 to update. And so my clients, being working with marginalized 355 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:40.599 people has. 356 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:42.079 Taught me to update. 357 00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:46.960 It has taught me curiosity, humility. 358 00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:48.720 It's not me bravery. 359 00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:53.079 I've had to say in some instances, you know this 360 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:55.440 is a system right, you know this is not you right, 361 00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:58.240 And I've had to be brave about that. 362 00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:02.119 Yeah, what mean you? Why? 363 00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:04.839 Because one of. 364 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:07.519 The things I say about systemic trauma is that systemic 365 00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:13.359 trauma is often disenfranchised, it's invisibilized. That when persons experience 366 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:16.599 acts of racisms and the phobea, et cetera, they often 367 00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:22.720 find it very difficult to be able to have that 368 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.319 be heard because persons around them try to dismiss it. 369 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.440 And so it is my responsibility in the therapeu takes 370 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:32.960 space to name it. It's my responsibility to let you 371 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:35.400 know that you're not making this up. What you as 372 00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:38.400 Rasmomnechem says, what you think is happening, really is happening. 373 00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:39.039 This is real. 374 00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:42.759 And that takes courage. That takes a lot of courage. 375 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:46.680 Part of the reason it takes courage is because I 376 00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:49.599 too am a black woman, and I am feeling the 377 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:53.319 helplessness sometimes of not seeing things shift, especially in these times. 378 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:56.759 And it takes courage for me to name the thing 379 00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.920 that my nome might not shift because as I need 380 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:04.400 the system. I'm actuallying domains of powerlessness and helplessness as 381 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:07.319 well that exists so many of us. So it takes 382 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:10.119 bravery for me to name it, and it also takes 383 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:13.400 bravery for me to face the helplessness and the powerless 384 00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:16.279 is that you naturally feel when you realize that this 385 00:24:16.359 --> 00:24:17.400 is a thing bigger than you. 386 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:25.680 When you think of this book, I mean, obviously everything 387 00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:32.480 you're saying is vitally important. What are you hoping therapists 388 00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:37.200 will get from this work? 389 00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:44.640 I am hoping that there are few things I'm hoping. 390 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:49.559 I'm hoping that when they see dynamics between couples that 391 00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:52.880 they ask themselves what else is in the room. It 392 00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:57.240 isn't always systemic trauma. It isn't, but sometimes it's really 393 00:24:57.279 --> 00:24:59.519 important for you to ask yourself what else is in 394 00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:04.559 the room. I'm hoping that when they realize what else 395 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:07.240 is there, they're brave enough to name it for the couples. 396 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:12.799 I'm hoping that they support couples in normalizing their tensions 397 00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:17.839 that result from systemic trauma, that they don't pathologize the couple, 398 00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:20.799 that they pathologize the system that they assign they blame 399 00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:25.119 what they blame is to yeah, And I'm hoping that 400 00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:27.039 they support There's a part of my work that I 401 00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:31.680