Speaker 1: What is up, fellow sickos. I am Dana Valley coming
at you with my certified fan fabulous and powering through
an illness because he worked out too hard. I want
n't tell you that he couldn't that he caught above
you or something. He was working out way too hard,
that that training for the World's Strongest Man CrossFit competition
that I didn't know existed. He's really ramping it up.
That's Grant Hughes. We are here to do our mega
award show at the season's quarter poll. We thought it
was a good idea before I ask you how you're
feeling and doing, Grant, just because no other podcast or
writer or blogger or reporter has done any Awards content
just yet, so it just made a ton of sense
to do one. So I feel like that's just super
unique and not something that any of other podcast is
doing right now. So hat tip to us, mister Hughes.
Before we get started, how are you doing? Are you
nervous that you're sick? And are you nervous because when's
the last time we streamed anything live?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say no no bad words one
because I'm I'm I'm powering through it's like, I don't
want to complain about it. We're you know what, we
all we all give what we got on the day, Dan,
and so this is what this is what, this is
what you're gonna get. I would say that this is
in fact, I know you're being facetious. This is in
fact unique because everybody has already done their Quarter of
the Way awards and we're the only ones doing them now,
so we have more time to get them right.
Speaker 1: We publish NBA content on the weekends during football season
because that's clearly the most popular time to post your
NBA content.
Speaker 2: We understand our audience.
Speaker 1: I think I think we get it. Uh this, I'm
nervous to thank you for asking how I'm doing?
Speaker 2: How are you doing?
Speaker 1: How are you doing? I'm a little bit it's not nervous.
I'm so you know that like in post, like I
cut out a lot of stuff. It's like people are
gonna have to see the graphics transitions that would otherwise
be cut out. So that's making me a little bit
sad since we're streaming. But other than that, I'm doing okay.
These This is always stressful to do, and we'll have
some like criteria no when we get to the individual categories.
But I approached it as did you. As the NBA
season is ending right now on December seventh, this is
who we would pick to win. I'm not trying to
predict to will win at the end of the season
right now, and I'm also not trying to predict what
other media members with votes might be doing.
Speaker 2: Right Yeah, it's it's as if these are like the
first quarter awards. Basically, it's just like and we'll have
discussions about in some cases how how these things might
change if you were asking us to predict, you know,
who's actually going to win the real award, you know,
at the end of the season. I think our list
would look pretty different. So that, yes, yes, exactly. That
keep in mind that like, for example, our all NBA
teams are not a list of the five best players
in the NBA. They're the list of the guys we
think have been the best through the first quarter of
the season. It's a very different thing.
Speaker 1: And I think because this Dovetails will start with MVP
and go into All NBA for at least, the way
I approach it and you might approach it a little differently,
is there is a separation between All NBA and value
to me, where I think that you can be more
valuable to a team, whereas when it comes to all NBA,
I'm viewing it more. That's more individual value to me
to where it's I'm not looking at oh, if you
pull this player off this team or look at how
much his team has surprised around him. Necessarily that's part
of the equation, But I'm looking at the numbers their
performance in their role more than I am. With MVP.
It feels like you have to take into account just
more aggregate factors of like well, the on offs. Of course,
everyone loves the on offs when it comes to that
as an instance, I don't know that that should impact
for me. It does not impact my All NBA selections
as much. I'm also more inclined to unless the player
has been really great like I'm and you'll see this
on my third team, Like minutes played matters at the
end of the day, and if players are tracking towards eligibility,
that matters. But this is the quarter season, and so
if they've played what I deem enough minutes right now,
I'm gonna pick them, Especially once you get outside the
first team territory. Yeah, fair, are we ready to get started?
Then let's get into it and with MVP. Do you
want to take us through through your ballot, mister Hughes.
Speaker 2: Yes, So, I mean number one is Nikola Jokic. I like,
I don't know really how much we need to say it.
Just he's been the best player in the league for
a long time. That's as true as ever, maybe more
true this season than even some of the years he's
won it in the past. The on off stuff is
remains just absurd, Like the thing I gravitated towards among
the many stats you could point out, you know, we've
seen several times this year people are tallying up like
where he ranks in points, rebounds, and assists per game,
and his odds at you know, a triple crown, which
basically never happens. I just look at Denver being thirty
point nine points per hunter better on offense when he plays,
and for a minute there he was on pace. He
may still be there to just essentially have the biggest
on off impact on an offense that anyone's ever had,
and he's basically just competing with himself in past years
for that honor. So I like what else, what else
do you say for Jokic? And then after that, I've
got SGA, Tatum, Giannis and I guess you know, I've
got Franz fifth and basically that's my NBA team. But
I think maybe that's when we could talk about because
we are in lockstep essentially on you know, one, two
and three, and then we just swapped four and five
right very quickly.
Speaker 1: On the Jokic front, though didn't judge by the way,
Sorry to jump ahead, but yeah, yeah, so Jokic. The
Nuggets are out scoring posts by twelve point four points
per one hundred posessions when he's on the court. That's
less than like the Celtics with Tatum at thirteen point seven,
less than the Thunder with Sga fifteen point eight. But
it's like, it's more than the Spurs with Wemby. It's
more than the Dubs with Steph. It's more than the
Wolves with Ann It's more than the Cavs even with
Evan Mobley. It's definitely more than the Bucks. With Giannis.
The fact that he shoulders, they forget about the actual
on off stuff when he is on the court. A
Nuggets team that has no business contending without him plays
like an actual Like if you just could play and
I can guarantee you Nicole Yokich wouldn't get tired or injured,
and you played him all forty eight minutes, you'd probably
consider the Nuggets like one of the two or three
foremost threats to win the championship. And that's a hell
of a feather under his cap. When you look at
the supporting cast, yep fair, I would say, so our
difference here are just sga. I think it's obvious. I
think you could qubble over between him or Tatum. Tatum's
leveled up his playmaking. I still view shake Gill Alexander
as the more valuable playmaker and self starter on offense.
And I don't think the defense of If you think
Tatum is the better defender because of his size, I
don't think that the defensive gap that was big enough
to just shoot him over. And then so look, Franz belong.
Let's start with Franz belongs on this ballot. To me,
the Magic without Polo on the court this season are
outscoring opponents by nine point six points per one hundred.
With Franz on the court, he has been spect I
think some people aren't thrilled. But we've seen, Okay, the
three point efficiency has ticked up relative to some years past.
But when you look at the level of self creation
he's shouldering, his efficiency on those looks is not as
good as some of what would be his contemporaries. But
to me, that would be a discussion more so for
all NBA because when you're looking at just the results
being driven here, like the Magic are a team that's
still floating near the top of the Eastern Conference without
who's supposed to be their best player. And I think
the thing that stands out the most to me, aside
from him shouldering a huge offensive burden while being an
active participant in a good defense, is the playmaking here.
And so we went over some other playmaking stats with
him in our most Improved stuff. But grant this is
per b Ball Index. Here's every player in the ninety
fifth percentile or better of true usage, which incorporates passing
and potential assists and then passing quality. So like the
quality of the shots that you're setting up for your
your teammates Luca, Steph, jaw Tree, Young and Franz.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's just like who's got less help you know,
you know that's the other thing is just the that's
an insane stat in a vacuum. And then when you
consider the supporting cast and like the attention that is
being paid to guys around Frond, so like the theoretically
like it should be harder to create quality shots because
you're just being swarmed because there's no that opposing defenses
are all that scared of on the magic. So the
degree of difficulty I think really really recommends Franz and
you've got him higher than I do an MVP, so
I think I'm preaching to the choir on that one.
Speaker 1: We do have a difference when it gets to the
fifth spot. So what was I don't think it's you
don't have to like justify this, but you have Yiannis
at four here.
Speaker 2: I just think, you know, defensively, I don't think giannest
is where he was. I do think that's being discussed
more and more, and I think it's fair. But you know,
the mid Rangers falling, that's been the big story of
this season. How much that matters ultimately is hard to say.
I think defenses are still happy when he shoots that,
but he's just been so insanely productive and has continued
to be like, you know, one of the hardest playing superstars,
which is just like Janis has not fallen fallen off
enough defensively for me to like for me to ignore
the thirty ten and six just two you know, the
like clockwork production. He still is. He's a top five
player in the league to me, even with some slippage defensively,
so I just I couldn't leave him off. Actually, like
the the trickier decision for me wasn't like I think
SGA was pretty clearly too, and then it was gonna
be Honest or Tatum for three and four. I went
with Tatum third, just because I actually think you can
make the case he's been more valuable defensively because he's
guarding centers like all the time for the Celtics, which
is difficult and should be snapping his legs. And he's
still just been exceptionally valuable on offense. His distribution Talking
about Tatum, because we haven't really mentioned him much, has
been like otherworldly, just even in the game against the
Bucks last night, just making passes, extremely difficult passes to
set guys up. He's hit a new level there. So
Jannis four, and then I so, I really, what I
think we need to talk about is you have Steph
on your ballot and I don't in the top five.
Why don't you just volume I think, and like, you know,
if it's well, here's what I want to say.
Speaker 1: Is that the one thing I'm gonna say though, because
I thought about that too. He's played like seventy five
minutes less than Yannis.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, so for me it was Steph or Franz
because I wasn't gonna leave Giannis off there. Like, so
it's just the case, like if you said who would
you rather have for the rest of the year, it's
Steph over Franz. Like that's not a hard question. Who's
the better player in a vacuum, like just for how
whatever the next you know, next week, next month. Just objectively,
I think Steph is better. I think he impacts winning more.
That just hasn't been the case so far. And I'm trying,
really trying to stick to the like first quarter, you know,
who's not what they're gonna do or how I view
them in some like non you know, objective sense, but
just who's done it to this point in the season,
and Franz has been just like undeniably incredible with just
a level of responsibility that's new for him. And maybe
I'm like counting that a little too much, and maybe
I'm like letting some of the most improved stuff bleed
into this, But I think Franz has just been so
like stunningly good in a really difficult situation and for
a minute there, like this is how quickly these things change.
So put as much stock in him as you want.
He was leading the NBA in EPM and estimated wins.
He's fallen a little bit and those after like just
you know, over twenty four hours or thirty six hours
or whenever it was I last looked. But like, I don't.
I can't just ignore that if we're talking about who's
done what to this point. Right, So Steph better, as
people like to say, but and I agree, but not
so far.
Speaker 1: I just Steph elevated the Warriors to contention level when
he's on the court, and they can't function without him
when he's off, And like the Yannest stuff, I don't.
I still think he's fantastic. Do I think he's one
of the five best players in basketball? Still? Absolutely? And
that'll be reflected when we get to all NBA in
a second. But like I think you're starting to see,
especially because Middleton doesn't come back until Friday, some of
the limitations if he has to be a driver of
the entire offense for longer stretches than you would like,
and how that's going to impact players around him. I
also do think mostly at the beginning of the year,
he's been a part of some of what their defensive
issues were. And I look at Steph Yes, okay, his
defense is no great shakes either. He is a participant
in one of the better defenses in the league, though,
and the fact that he is so valuable on offense
on the ball, away from the ball, you just the
way he bends defenses. I think he's play enough to
be put in there. And like the Warriors offense has
been bad, and when you look at the personnel outside
of him, it probably should be bad. And yet when
he's on the court, they're still just in the seventy
fifth percent tile and they have the net rating of
what would be a bona fide championship contender. So it
was Giannis was clearly the toughest cut, which think now
is a good time to get into our all NBA pick,
So we'll start with mine. My first team does not
mirror my MVP ballot because like I said, I do
believe that you can look more at just the individual
numbers at that point, and so I have Giannis in
there for Franz where it's like he's going to be
the more player. He is still he's slipped on defense,
but he is going to be the better defender, And
like those those numbers are just video game where it's
like who's most likely to just put up like a thirty,
fifteen and six game in the league, it's Yo Kitch
and then Giannis is probably next up. But I have
Yo Kitch on first team SG on first Team Tatum,
which Tatum. I feel like we just gloss over too
much because the Celtics are so known on b Ball
Index if you were just for the context of their role.
He actually leads the NBA in Lebron right now, So
shout out to Jason Tatum for that. I kept step
at one because, like I said, I think he's probably
been like playing time and availability matters, and he's played
it like substantially less than some of these guys. I
still think he's been like the third or fourth most
valuable player in basketball. And then so I have my
second team, I do have Fronz on there, and then
new entries that we didn't really talk about with the
MVP Jalen Brunson. I could see him kind of wedging
his way into an MVP discussion by the way, like
that top five ish like he did last season Anthony Davis.
The numbers are brilliant for the most part. There's been
real defensive slippitche there for him well, but that's look
at the personnel around him for that too. We've seen
some of the offensive numbers slip off, but I think
in the macro he's still been one of the ten
best basketball players this season. Uh, Wemby, I don't like,
what is the what's the case against Wemby is what
will the kids say that that we're glazing right now?
Because he's only in year two. I'm trying to think,
when's the last time And I don't want to speak
for you, but like, when's the last time you considered
a sophomore for second team All NBA? Was it last
year with Jalen Williams.
Speaker 2: This is this is who I hate that you make
that joke because I was like, what would be a
funny thing to say, and that would have been it.
Uh yeah, I know, that's that's a great point, Like
I don't you know, we'll get to it when we
talk about the defense stuff. But it's just Wenby I
think is the offense is good enough, and I think
the three point shooting is intriguing and actually like has
been very effective of late after him not being very
accurate to start the season, and I just like, I
I think if your argument is it's he's a second
year player, it's too soon, that's like, that's not a
real argument. So I think the satistical case is there,
especially as we will talk shortly. I'm sure about some
of the defensive numbers that are just like, there's so
many unheard of things about his defensive profile.
Speaker 1: Right, And it's the thing about his offense is, I
know some people are uncomfortable with the shot profile, but
he shoulders just like a larger self creation burden than
you would expect. I mean, because he's taking those threes,
they're not all like they're not all being generated for him.
And even more of his looks at the rim or
in the paint. Those are self generated more than I
think people give him credit for. So when you are
the best defensive player in the league and you're also
a net positive on offense, like you're all NBA case
lies in that I have j dub on my second team,
I just is this. Can I unleash my J dub
stat now that I was trying to blow your brain,
please please do. Jalen Williams six foot six inch Jail
Willims the Oklahoma City Thunder leaves the league in the
percentage of field goals contested at the rim when he's
on the court. So the percentage of shots that other
teams are taking at the rim, he's contesting fifty seven
point nine percent of those. Grant that leads the league
because the Thunder are so fucking tiny. So when you
are able to play that type of defense and it's
wrapped in an offensive profile, that maybe it's been more
incremental improvement. But he's a more self sustaining offensive player.
After a little bit of a rickety start you've been
I don't know if this will hold. I think guys
like Luca and Edwards will probably be coming for him. Specifically.
To date, I think he's been one of the ten
best players, ten most valuable players, ever you want to
frame it. In basketball, Luca's on the third team. I
don't expect that to stay. I'm not gonna lie. I
feel like he's gonna be someone who bumps up. He's
been playing off the ball more. Looks a little healthier
since he sat out. I think some of his efficiency
numbers will just come up. And by the way, he
still has the highest net rating swing on Dallas. I
also threw Anthony Edwards in there. Kyrie Erving's been spectacular
as a shot maker this year. Evan Mobley, I'm sure
you'll talk more about him, so I don't need to
get into his case. The controversial one here is we
were supposed to let each other ask questions, so I
apologize it's Kevin Durant has played under five hundred minutes.
I don't care. He's arguably been Phoenix's best player at
both ends of the floor. But when you factor in
the numbers he's putting up offensively, just like twenty five
points on sixty five true shooting, He's one of just
the better still self created shot makers. And then it's
the defense that he's shouldering. Opponents are shooting seventeen point
three percentage points worse at the basket. When Kevin Durant's
contesting a shot, He's not going to be eligible for
this much longer. I want to make that clear. Next
time we do this, he might have missed enough time
to be bounced. I just think, like I said to me,
it's going to be more about just outstanding at this point,
and I think he's been easily to me, one of
the fifteen best players in basketball.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's all fair. I think, why don't
you put mine up and then that'll spur some of
the differences that we can discuss. So my first team
is not any different than my MVP ballot. If it
were to be different, I would probably just swap Stephan
for Franz. You've made a lot of good arguments about
it in the MVP discussion about you know, the differences
between what they're doing and just Steph being like, you know,
he's still still pretty much Steph. I don't know what
percentage of Stephie is, but it's it's in the nineties
and that's good enough for an All NBA first I.
Speaker 1: Will say he's still Steph. When it comes to flying
around without the ball, like when you just watching with
it like that is Steph is still Steph.
Speaker 2: I think, I think if I don't know, I don't again, like, yeah,
put him on my second team. That's that's the only
real I think that's the only difference we have on
second team. Actually, as you had Franz there and I
have Steph there.
Speaker 1: So we have the same two teams.
Speaker 2: Yeah, same top ten essentially, Yeah, at first and second.
I think I might be I might be getting a
little bit affected by concern about the knees, the knees
that he's been having, like he's I think we're probably
now this is again I'm just kind of trying to
explain myself here, but like I think there's a good
chance he's not going to play both ends of back
to backs going forward. He does, I think you're dead
on it. Like he's still the load he carries as
just you know, from a mileage perspective, like how much
he has to move around is incredibly tough. And I
think the Warriors lack of a you know, credible second
creator means that Steph's like the level of defensive attention
he's facing and physicality this year is like as higher,
higher than ever, Like just the book really is just
don't let him get you know, run loose, and the
Warriors can't score. And that's I mean, you look at
the on off stuff for real validation of that. But
even on the floor, if you can deny him the
ball for long enough in a possession, the Warriors really
just like turn it over or cough up a tough
shot or you know, take the ball to trouble, So
that that's part of it. I mean, I think he's
one of the fifth five best players in the league.
Still blah blah blah. Our difference on the third team
because I also have Luca and Kyrie and you had
we both have Mobilely, I have Jaron Jackson Junior over Durant,
and that's really just a volume thing. And now Jackson
takes himself off the floor plenty with fouls and all
that stuff, And on a permanent basis, I don't think
there's a case to say that Jackson's been better than Durant.
But I need to give the Grizzlies somebody here, I think,
and that's not always a great argument, but I think
he's been there best player overall, like Morant, certainly on
a permanent basis, has a case for that, but he's
missed enough time to kind of remove himself from consideration here.
And like you, I think Luca's Luca is not going
to be a third teamer and it's a what a
credit to him?
Speaker 1: Wild?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like and like I did, I don't know,
did you give a second of consideration to not having
Luca on an All NBA team?
Speaker 1: No? When I was the thing that tripped me up
was when I was not that I was trying to
include Durant, but I believe just so with such conviction
that he has been like he belongs here. It was
who am I going to bounce? And it ended up
being Jared Jackson Junior, which I don't love, but his shoulders,
I think in net may I think it would have
to be him or Mobile. You. I'm gotta hoping you
get into too, because I don't think a lot of
people are gonna have Mobile on one of their three
All NBA teams.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, and we talked about this a fair amount
uh on the last pod discussing most improved. So the numbers,
if you're just looking at the counting stats, I'll pull
him up here as I'm as I'm vamping, like they
don't they don't look like all NBA numbers, and they
also don't look really meaningfully different from last year. And
so I think the narrative of like, oh my god,
look at the growth he's made year over year that
started the season, I feel like slipped a little bit,
and like that's just kind of missing the point right,
Like he's shooting, you know, his three point volume is
two point one per game, Like that's you know, more
than last year, but it's not. I mean, it's still
so low. So oh, that's where the growth was going
to be and it's not there. So therefore, Mobily is
the same guy. Defensively, we're both going to have him
really high on DPOY and offensively, the way that he's
playing is so fundamentally different and so much more valuable
to this Cavs offense. And that's specifically with respect to
the volume of and nature of his drives, the physicality
that he plays with. You clipped out a chunk from
the last pod that I think really kind of encapsulates
my thoughts on how he's so drastically different as an
offensive player for the better because he's just attacking the basket,
he's dunking on guys, He's using his strength. He looks
physically much stronger and is playing that way. So, yeah,
seventeen point nine points a game. I don't know is
that an all? Is that all NBA worthy if you're
not one of the five? Maybe lower than that best
defenders in the league, maybe not. But the combination of
how he's attacking offensively and the way he's like juicing
that Cavs offense by being the guy that is helping
set up a lot of threes and you know, forcing
defensive collapses into the lane on top of the defense.
Like I just I think if I were going to
cut somebody for Durant, it probably would have been Jaron Jackson.
It would not have been Mobiley. I think Mobley's been
that good.
Speaker 1: Any honorable mentions? Want to go back and forth on
who were some of our toughest cuts?
Speaker 2: Yeah, tough cuts for me. I mean Durant was obviously
number one because just the volume, the fact that he's
missed time is really the only the only case you
can make.
Speaker 1: And in fact, the same time as we record this, I'm.
Speaker 2: Currently missing I'm missing more time that that doesn't help him.
I'm trying to look for guys that I have that
you don't.
Speaker 1: I have.
Speaker 2: Go ahead, I just mentioned mine. Give me one.
Speaker 1: We both have dearon Fox, and I think you can
probably make the case like it's a bonus their best player.
I think it's still him. I know some of the
three point shootings fallen off and the Kings have been
As an impartial observer, I find the King's very stressful
this season. So but he's he's still like ninety percent
of his shots at the rimmer going unassisted. Like he's
still scoring. I think he's like fifty five plus percent
on twoes. He's he's been like one of their heaviest
workload defenders this year as well. He was tough. Anyone
else for you? I have one that I know you
didn't mention. I think that might surprise some people, But yeah,
I mean, so.
Speaker 2: You'll notice that we have only one Cavalier in our
top three all NBA teams. I have both Garland and Mitchell.
We both have Garland Mitchell on our honorable mentions. And
like I really did for a minute there, it was
a real discussion between Kyrie and one of those two guys,
I just think Gyrie's shooting like forty five forty six
percent from three to fifty percent from the field.
Speaker 1: He's been year too, sorry activity this year too has
been through the roof.
Speaker 2: And he's they're positive in the non Luca minutes, which
is like and it's really because of him, because he's
just been an elite driver. Note sir, uh, so who
else you got? That was Garland and Mitchell?
Speaker 1: Who would you have picked between them?
Speaker 2: I think this is so. I think, in keeping consistent
with with like contributions to this point, I probably would
have had to pick Garland. I still think Donovan Mitchell
is the better player, like he's the I think if
you're hierarchy izing the Calves, I probably have him a
good word, right, you can tell him my brain's firing.
Speaker 1: Because I think that's an excellent word.
Speaker 2: There's got to be an actual word organizing hierarchically the
Calves pecking order. I would say Mitchell is higher on it,
but I probably would have gone with Garland just because
I think he's been marginally better to this point. I
don't think he's the better player.
Speaker 1: Though, so I probably wouldn't with Garland too. And I
agree with everything you said there one of my I'm
gonna reveal it this way. Here's all these This is
per b Bellot index as well. Here's every player who's
in the ninetieth percent tile of both defensive field goal
percentage allowed at the rim, difference to what's expected and
self created shot efficiency, like some of the most important
things on either end of the floor. And I also
filtered it out by you can't be a low activity defender.
Kevin Durant, Victor webin Yama, Jaron Jackson Junior, Daniel Gafford,
but that's a volume thing. And Keg Cunningham, who also
think deserves some shine here. I think he's just improved
a bunch defensively this year. That was meant to highlight
it more, and he's responsible for driving so much of
their offense. Unless there are there Chet Holmgreen would have
been mentioned if he played anywhere near enough. I do
have Devin Bookers like sort of a distant honorable mention.
Is there any other names you wanted to throw out
that I had.
Speaker 2: Alpern Shangouna someone I thought about. The scoring efficiency has
been really disappointing so far this season. He's at a
career low overall from the field, the three point stuff
hasn't happened, and you know, and yet nineteen ten and
five and his defense, we've talked about this a little bit,
has been like not passable, but actually a part of
the reason that the Rockets have a great defense this year.
I think like if he'd had last year's efficiency numbers,
forget the counting stats on offense, I think I probably
would have thought really really hard about putting him on
a third team.
Speaker 1: I did give LaMelo consideration because then the thirty plus
points and still passing really well and shooting a crazy
number of threes and hitting them drop below thirty six percent.
He's hurt. The defense is bad. The turnovers are all
over the place too. I couldn't get there for him either.
Did you feel before we unless you have anyone else
to mention, we should probably get the defensive player of
the year. Did you feel like as of right now
that the top crop of the league is sort of lacking?
Speaker 2: Well? I think, like viewed through the just to sort
of backtrack a little bit through the MVP prism, I
thought it was like Jokic, Giant Gap, Sga, Tatum, Jannis
maybe for me, but really just SGA Tatum, and then
after that it's like, man, I don't know, because we'll
think of who's not involved, right, like Curry not an
MVP consideration, Durant, Lebron. It's really kind of that story
that's being told more and more this year about how
like the old guard is kind of fading out and
the young crop of the like Edwards's and whoever else
you want to throw in there, haven't fully ascended to
that high level. So it feels like we're in kind
of a transition phase where maybe a year from now,
like Mobile Whimby, Edwards, Jaw, like some of these other
guys climb up to where they're closer to SGA, Tatum, Jokic,
but there seems like a pretty big gap there on.
I don't know, would you call them like you're there's
only a couple a pluses this year, and I feel
like there's a lot of b's and b pluses that'll climb,
but that aren't there yet.
Speaker 1: Because it does it feels like a lot of the
time there's at least sort of a consensus top five
or six players, and we just don't have that yeah
this year, and it's not look I think the games
have been I've had a lot of fun like watching games. Well,
I don't watch games. I forgot about that, But when
you look at the box scores, Grant, it seems like
there's been a lot of fun game this year.
Speaker 2: When you put a clip pro and you're just watching
somebody's pick and roll possessions over and over with no context,
it's really hard to find.
Speaker 1: The and she on Roe, I apologize if I butchered
the pronunciation of that. No, Cat, I did think about him,
even if you don't believe me the I think his
biggest case would be he's averaging over twenty five points.
You think he's had three assists, and he's always been
a good passer, but he's just throwing like some He's
had some monster passing games in New York, and I
think the light might be a little bit brighter, but
he's always been had the potential to be a good passer.
They're winning. So when he's on the court without Jayalen
Brun saying this will show you I considered him. I
think I think the nixt are like a plus seven
when he plays without JB. I can't get there with
the defense. I think when you look at this list
as of right now, the most damaging defensive player on
it is Luca, and it's like it's Luca. There's just
like a like, and then Steph is followed up there.
I think you could eat like you know, of the
names we mentioned, like Kat is certainly in the okay
Fox tire, He's certainly in the Cake Cunningham tier, He's
certainly in the Is he on the level of Garland
and Mitchell? That might be. I just think the rim
protection numbers are bad U and I don't know if
the Nicks have put him in the best spot to succeed,
Like I don't know that Tibbs is. I also don't
know what else TIB's is supposed to do defensively with him. Yeah,
and you acquired him knowing this. But I just when
you've hurt your defense as much as I think he has,
even if you think he's played better over the last
five or seven games or whatever. I can't get there
right now. But when you look at this, I will
say this field of candidates, Kat would be another name
to kind of just monitor as like, Okay, well, this
order is clearly going to change when you look at
and look if you wanted to say for mine specifically,
like Cat should be in there over Kevin Durant. You
look at the difference in minutes, I think I honestly
think that's fair.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think I think Kat is sort of
a victim of like there just are different positional demands.
And if you are as bad as he's been defensively
and as bad specifically as a rim protector as the
numbers have shown him to be, like at the center spot,
that's just like that's that's a huge part of what
you're supposed to do in that role, and he's just
not been good at it. And then you'd say, well, like, okay,
so how good is Darius Garland defensively? For example, if
we're just gonna pick somebody out, He's like, well, you
can make the case that Garland's defensive impact is and
is still somehow like not as good as Towns, but
like Garland is a singular driver of offense, and that's not
what Kat does either, like Jalen Brunson does that for
the nixt. So like a big guy that has awesome
offensive numbers but poor defense, it's just like you're not
fulfilling like a significant chunk of your like job requirements.
So I hold that against him a little bit.
Speaker 1: I also hold it against him because he made me
look like a fool by saying he was gonna attempt
at least a three as a game this year and
he's under this is also I've thought about this so much,
and Gianro says he moves, he'll move to the four
after Robinson comes back. I want to see what it
looks like. I'm just curious. I think Karl Anthony Towns
is a skeleton key in that setup. But it's all right, well,
I guess you're taking out Heart in that scenario, which
is I mean, Heart's a better four space than the
Mitchell Robinson. That's not what I was getting at. I'm
just so curious what that looks like offensively. But I
think you could make the case. Look at how much
the Timberwolves miss Karl Anthy Towns defensively compared to Julius Randall.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I think the whole dynamic changes if he's
not asked to be your improtector right like, that's it's
just completely he's got Now he's basically a wing, you know,
like and he's not a good defensive wing by any stretch,
but his length matters more if he's in that. Yeah, yeah,
you're you're not asking him to be the back line guy,
which he just has never consistently been like average at Really.
Speaker 1: We're on the defensive player of the Year. You want
to take that, well, yeah I took it. You want
to take this?
Speaker 2: Sure? Yeah, So uh we're just gonna go top three
here and then we'll kind of dovetail into all defense.
So Wemby first, it's just like, what do you I
don't know which ridiculous stat to go with, just like, actually,
you know, I'm sure you have stats. I will make
the case that I have never seen someone just prevent
players from attempting to score the way that he does
all over the court, like just his suppression of Now
there is data, they're like, oh, what does what does
rimtep frequency look like with him on or off? It's
and you know all that stuff rim accuracy, mid range accuracy,
all that stuff he impacts. But just if you watch
the games, his presence is just like a unique thing
in in the NBA right now, Like and there we're
going to talk about other good rim protectors, great rim
protectors like Rudy Gobert is on my ballot. He's an
all time RIM protector. Gobert does not change the way
offenses operate to the same extent that Wemby does, and
that's because Wemby is the best combination of like length
and mobility we've ever seen. So I just think, like
the way that that he changes how entire teams approach
trying to score is fundamentally unique. And I think I
just wouldn't even really entertain an argument like for a
better for somebody else ahead of him, for first like that,
like is that do you feel that strongly? Or was there?
You know, I don't want to diminish the accomplishments of
the other guys we're going to talk about, But like,
this was maybe the easiest of a decision I made
in any of these ballots.
Speaker 1: I don't, Yeah, I think it was easy. What do
you make of the What do you make of the argument?
I guess that Wemby isn't the highest IQ defender and
he could also be doing more because I think when
you watch him and I might agree with this where
it's kind of oh, he could definitely contest. He's contesting
by the way, forty five plus percent of all shots
when he's on the court near the rim, that's a lot,
so like I'm not trying to put there. I think
when you look at him, you could see the potential
for him to do more or that he's not. You know,
sometimes he's going to fall behind plays, but he has
the physical tools to where it doesn't matter. I can't
ding him for that. Like a hashtag born this way
and he's just using it. I don't. He's upon the
statu you want like forty five percent a could test
of opponents when he's on the court and as a
mobile big I think that's a pretty good number. Is
the center, you might want it to be a little
bit higher, especially him, Opponents are shooting sixteen percentage points
worse at the basket when he's on at the basket
when he's challenging them. That's just a monster drop off.
And then he's saving about two point seven points at
the rim per seventy five possessions, which you know, that's
a pretty that you might expect that number to be higher.
But I think a lot of his value lies even
though when you see it, I think statistically the Spurs
might be allowing more points or excuse me, a larger
share of opponent shots at the basket when he's on
the court. But a lot of Wemby's value kind of
lies in don't try that, right, And.
Speaker 2: That's case I'm making essentially.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, I think that's fine. And by the way,
so all those numbers I mentioned when you're looking at, okay,
the percentage of shots contested at the rim coupled with
how poorly opponents shoot. They are then coupled with how
many points per seventy five possessions he saved. I'm filtering
just through players that have played at least two hundred
and fifty minutes, so the sample size is huge here.
There's only one other player who matches all those benchmarks
and his chet Holm Grin.
Speaker 2: So I even have the games essentially.
Speaker 1: Right, Oh, we got spam in the chat. Look at
this Knicks Film School MVP Karl Anthony Towns DPOI oganna noobi.
Do you have any other notes? Well, I'll throw all
their picks up there. We'll see if they have any. Oh,
Rookie of the Year Ariel huck Porty, that's a good one.
Anything else, I just and the Spurs are elite defensively
with him on the court, although it has slipped. I
don't know if you've noticed, like the offense is kind
of headed in the right directions, the defense is not.
I still think if this award is actually here's my question,
on an annual basis moving forward, how many other players
do you think realistically could be a better than Victor
Webbery more valuable defender in any given season right now?
Speaker 2: Uh? None? I just like what maybe Chet? Maybe Chet?
Maybe Chet?
Speaker 1: I will give a shout out because I do think
he's kind of like a hybrid big and normally I do. Look,
I think big men are the most important defenders in basketball.
I just think that's without a doubt. You kind of
have to think about Ama Thompson there a little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the versatility is insane. I guess if you're to
your question, do I do I think that Wemben Yama
is gonna get like anything but better at you know,
defending in space or you know, the some of the
decision making stuff like She's like, again, that's a separate
issue from what we're talking about here. I just like,
I do you mentioned Chet and he's not on either
of our our top three here and that is.
Speaker 1: Strictly in sixty five minutes.
Speaker 2: That's truly because he's played ten games. Uh and but
to your point, just you know, the inside six feet
defensive fieldbell percent of stuff. Wemby's number one among anybody
that's defend and did more than seven attempts per game,
allowing forty seven percent shooting inside six feet. That's sixteen
percent below what you would expect to be allowed. That's
like Mobile's at twelve percent. We have him second, Like okay,
so one and two, great Chet is eighteen percent below
what you would expect guys to shoot inside when he's
designated the primary defender inside six feet. I wonder, like,
one how sustainable that is? And two that that's to
answer your question earlier, like Chet sort of has to
be the guy that you would consider as like, is
anybody in a challenge when Bin Yama for the next
however many defensive Player of the Year awards, because like
Chet might, Chet probably is like a little bit sharper
off the ball, a little bit more versatile in space,
like all that stuff, not as long because nobody is
but close enough, and his his interior, like his rim
protection numbers are bonkers. So I think chet is clearly
the answer. But ten, you just can't. His impact hasn't
been great enough to be you know, top three here
or you know, in consideration for all first team.
Speaker 1: For example, I will say I said this erroneously, that
the Spurs were allowing more attempts at the room with
him on the court. That is just factually not true.
I don't know why I thought that was a thing.
They're allowing three point nine opponents shares. Excuse me, the
frequency with which opponents reached the rim with one me
on the court drops by three point nine percent. That's
in the seventy eighth or it's eighty ninth percentile. Excuse me.
That's a huge number. It's second in the league among
anyone who's play at least two hundred fifty minutes. And
by the way, he combines that with well, he's in
the ninety four percent tile of the share of shots
that aren't taken in float range when he's on the court.
So just like players that don't want to be in
the paint.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love your did you come up with the
the like the don't try it factor?
Speaker 1: I feel like that was that was off rip. That
was just he's the he's the consummate. Don't try it.
We probably should so we both have Mobi number two.
He's apparently Mobili's five or six from three in the
first half. By the way, Buttresses is all NBA case.
I just he's the best defender on a team that's
still a pretty good defensive team. And when you talk
about hybrid bigs, he's the hybrid big. He's the center,
but he can also be the wing defender. He's playing
next to Jared Allen. I think, look, if we're talking
about the most versatile defenders in basketball, is it probably
between him, Adenobi and Bam. Who am I leaving off?
Speaker 2: I think that you might you might have said Draymond
By that well let's we'll we'll save the Draymond for
for a moment here. But yeah, like Mobile is someone that,
like you're as comfortable with him on Jason Tatum as
you are with him on Anthony Edwards as you are
with him on name the big right like and and
then as a as an off ball guy that flies around.
I mean, you're you'd be hard pressed to find anybody
you'd want more in that role, like other than Wemby.
I guess who's kind of disqualified from any of those
comparative conversations.
Speaker 1: I have Draymond three. I actually think you snubbed him here.
But Rudy, go bear, and we'll get into this a
little bit with all defense. I'll throw your all defense
teams up here in one second. Draymond just he remains
the quarterback of the Warriors defense, and the Warriors defense
has been elite, it's actually been worse when he's on
the court. That just says more anything about what their
bench personnel has been able to do against other bench personnel.
I still view him as the lifeblood of what is
you know, one of the most disruptive or terrifying defenses
in the league to date. And yes, the Warriors are
going through what are they on a six game losing
streak or whatever it is, there's still fourth in defensive
efficiency overall. That doesn't happen without Draymond Green. Like I
know again, I know this is where the on off
stuff is weird this season. If you look at Anthony
Davis's and you told me the Lakers are better off
defensively with him off the court, I'd probably believe you.
But like last year when it said that the Lakers
were better defensively without him. I don't buy it, and
I wouldn't buy this with you pull Draymond Green off
the Warriors. I think they're probably a bottom ten defense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, well we may we may get some
version of a test of that, because he's going to
the bench now for at least a little while. As
Jonathan Kaminga get Finally.
Speaker 1: You know why they're doing that right to buttresses on
off splits for this exact argument that we're having.
Speaker 2: So I agree with you that Draymond is still is
an alzheimer and is still very very very good. I've
seen enough like oh that was a blowby like on
switches this season. I'm an ageist. Yeah, to degrade him
just just a touch, he's gonna make one of my teams.
And I, in fact like had to move him up
because I had him too low. So I have Gobert there.
I think, like, well, people that have been paying attention
day to day and that have been looking at the
numbers all year are aware that the idea that Minnesota's
early defensive struggles like did not have a lot to
do with Gobert. Now you can criticize him for like
the stonehands and the pouting about not getting post touches
and just wanting to be too much of an offensive
player when he just has never been and can't really be.
That that's all valid, But as a defensive like difference maker,
he's still like, right there, Minnesota's defense is world class
when he's on the floor. That's been true all year,
continues to be true as they are on this run
now of like, oh there they are. There's the defense
over the last like week plus, it.
Speaker 1: Was I I credit Anthony Edwards and I watched the videos.
I'm gonna fret it this way the politest verbal disembowlment
I've ever seen or heard in my entire life, and
just the seas around.
Speaker 2: Did it with a smile, like smiled and laughed as
he was saying it, as he was talking about how
soft they are and how their little kids just like
come on, like make him elect him president. So, just
a couple of stats for Gobert, like nothing that's going
to surprise you. Opponent riemits him frequency is down by
eight percent. That's a ninety eight percentile figure when he's
on the floor of versus off. He's still a great
shop locker, great defensive reboundary. He's still just it's kind
of like the stepf thing, Like I don't know what
percentage of you know, Pete Rudy Gobert he currently is,
but it's in the nineties. It's good enough to be
the to be my third guy here, and I guess, like, yeah,
it's Draymond. Draymond still might be one of the guys
you'd take. Like we're starting a playoff series today, Like
who do you want to anchor a defense? What this is?
Speaker 1: Isn't that weird because like, wouldn't Bam be in that?
Like if you're saying you're doing right now, we're saying
you want to build the best playoff defense possible and
we have to hold a draft and like you're just
selecting players from scratch. Wenby goes one still and then
it's like there's a case for Bam or Draymond or
Mobli after that it feels more so than there would
be for Gobert.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's got more to do with
offense than anything else, you know what I mean, Like,
I think I think you can the idea. There was
a minute there where what was it, the Jazz Clippers series. However,
many years ago when Terrence Man hits like six threes
from the corners and we're like, well, see, Rudy Gobert,
it can't be you know, he can't anchor it. That
just was overblown. That really wasn't on him. But I
do think to your point, when you're picking a guy
to anchor a postseason defense, we're getting a little far
afield now. But it's an interesting discussion. I do think
you grab take away from your standard rim protectors, and
you just want guys that are gonna be more versatile
and capable of covering different types of offenses in different matchups.
I think that's just the reality of what the playoffs
demand versus eighty two games, where you need to set
a base defense night to night and you're not like
scouting the shit out of every team and you know,
trying to exploit every weakness. It's just kind of a
different task.
Speaker 1: Let's move on to grants all defense teams can we
try it? So I'd like to ask questions if I
have any questions about, Yeah, why did you almost snub
Draymond Green entirely?
Speaker 2: I think it was just I was caught up in
the some of the physical lack so I'll give you
a couple more things besides the blowbys. I think he's
really struggling more with like the quickness of his reactions.
It's really is just all like this is what happens
when you've been guarding up a position or two like
your entire career and you're into your mid thirties. Not
as like he's struggling to like get up for rebounds
a little more than he used to. Like, so as
a defensive re you lose quite a bit more than
you used to when he he's your primary defensive rebounder.
Like that, that's a factor. I think I have him
on the second team, so like do you want to
you should actually read through for the people that are
actually listening. Yeah, okay, if you're just listening. My first
team has no surprise Wemby, Mobiley and Gobert. Also, I
have Jared Jackson Junior. My only non big is Dyson Daniels.
I don't want to hear about steels aren't defense because
in addition.
Speaker 1: Alta's defense is above average this year.
Speaker 2: Atlanta's defense is in fact above average, and Atlanta's defense
does not have a lot of good defenders in it.
So I mean they've been more. We wish have a
longer discussion about how Atlanta has like a really nice
top eight, by the way, but Daniels is just like
unscreenable rearview can test master, Like the poke away from
behind was a big story in the first few weeks
of the season, Like I've never seen someone do it
as effectively as he has. Just he is, he's I think, well,
look at here. I think he's the best perimeter defender
in the league. I think he's the best guy, the
guy you would want on any ball dominant guard or
anybody that's gonna run around screens that you need to
chase and just not lose contact with. I think he's
been unbelievable in that role.
Speaker 1: He also has the highest two way usage in the
NBA when you're factoring in usage on offense and defense.
Not that that matters here, but for him to be
as good asdeas on defense, if you have to shoulder
a heavier workload on offense, I think he was I
think he's your most interesting first team inclusion, but I
don't find him undeserving. Who's on your second team. I
think there's more a few more.
Speaker 2: Interesting one, right, So, Draymond's there. Obviously I have I
want We're pretty different here. Actually I have Chris Dunn,
Derek Lively, Aman Thompson, and Jalen Williams is on the
second team. We talked a little bit about Jalen Williams.
Your room protection staff for him is insane. He is
a true five position defender and then now has as
validated by the fact that he played center for a
good chunk of the season for a really good defense
and did all the things you'd want a center to do.
So if you have questions about the rest, you know,
fire away.
Speaker 1: But how do you and this will because I have
some of these guys on here, how do you reconcile
these guys like a Chris Dunn who's not necessarily or
Derek Lively even where they kind of like co op
the center position with Daniel Gafford perfectly. How do you
met where I'm in Thompson coming off the bench. They're
not playing a ton of minutes, but they're clearly like
one of the most impact.
Speaker 2: The minest thing is hard to get to and that's why,
like I think one of the reasons that I didn't
mention that Daniels made first team over some of these
other guys. Is like he's just played a ton and
so the volume is there. And then after I get
past first team, I don't know, maybe unconsciously my requirements
shift a little bit and it gets more towards like
honestly the best cases for Thompson and Lively and Done.
Although Done is like he was, you know, first or
second in defensive estimated plus minus as recently as a
couple of days ago, that's not that's not a cumulative stat.
That is a rate stat, So that doesn't address the
volume component you're bringing up. It's like I test stuff
and for Done specifically, just to start with, like somebody's
doing this for theer now it is collective. Zubots is
someone I forget if I yeah, I think I moved
them down to honorable mention. Zubots has been great guys.
I mean, like this is a collective effort, but I
think Done.
Speaker 1: Good Specifically, I just wanted to shout out they have
one player taller than six to eight who's in the
regular rotation, Like I don't Obamba has gotten some spot
minutes here. We saw a Kai Jones thing, and they're
first in defensive rebounding. Still, yeah, that's absurd.
Speaker 2: It's amazing, and like so Done is just has been
for a while. He's kind of one of like my guys.
I think I feel like I bring him up anytime
there's an underrated list to do or whatever. He's just
so good on the ball and so good off the ball,
like point of attack defenders are not the same as Biggs,
And really I think if we're I don't know, if
we really dove into this, we probably should just have
ten big guys on here. But I think Done for
his job is about as good as it gets and
has just made a huge difference for like a Clippers
defense that you're playing James Harden, Like somebody has to
take on the low of guarding whoever the best perimeter
threat happens to be because your you know, key offensive
guy can't do it. Lively, I'll just go. I like
these two guys, especially Thompson and Lively, are real eye
test monsters. Like Lively's mobility as like a true seven
foot big might be my favorite in the league, like
maybe next to Mobiley, just because like he can be
an elite rim protector and he can make the multiple
effort plays like you know, close out on one guy,
recover to the rim, you know, turn a drive away,
get the defensive rebound. Like he's just he's so mobile
and he's like really he makes a lot of the
right decisions for a young guy. And same with Aman Thompson.
Maybe Thompson is just the most I don't know, Like
I feel like I use this for describing Evan Mobley's drives,
but like most predatory defender there is like he just
like he flips the dynamic. I like to use that too,
where it's like you don't really attack Amen Thompson, you
just like try not to get attacked by him when
he doesn't have the ball, like it's the offense defense
and then flips him.
Speaker 1: Teams will just the rockets and just start scram switching
so that he can guard the balls.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he just uh, whether it's like a you know,
the rip on Rob Dillingham late in the in the
Rob Dillingham, Oh there he is game earlier this season
where like don't dribble. It's like the Kawhi thing, like
don't dribble near the guy, Like peak Kawai was, You're
not allowed to dribble in his vicinity. Thompson is that way,
and he has the athleticism to you know, be a
great rebounder, be a good rim protector, all that stuff,
like you mentioned it earlier. He just like his versatility
on defense's bananas.
Speaker 1: I would like to nominate that we get rid of
one all rookie team, so there's just one all rookie
team then, and then we have a third all defense team.
I'm not I'm not like a fan of doing more work,
but I honestly think if we had three all defense
teams this would have been easier for me.
Speaker 2: Anyway. It's hard well, and like again, as you know,
as much as we rely on stats and stuff, defense
is still just harder to evaluate. I think that's why
a lot of the.
Speaker 1: Time, isn't it.
Speaker 2: That's what I wants to more. Actually, we do measure
like who's on the floor, like diving for loose balls
to recover, but yeah, I go more eye test than
anything else for defense, just because I think it's hard
to measure like how much of an impact a player
makes on a ball handler, and like how much he
MUCKs up a play where that doesn't involve a steal
or a block or a defensive rebound.
Speaker 1: You know, let's go to mind which are somewhat similar
to yours. So my first team is my all defense ballots.
So I have Draymond, I have Evan Mobley, and I
have Wemby. I also Jaron Jackson junior like you, and
then I have Rudy Gobert on there just for all
the reasons you meant, like the on off splits with him,
or and say, I do have Dyson Daniels on second team.
He has a good first team case. He's also has
per people in deck, the highest matchup difficulty on defense
of any He's.
Speaker 2: Always the guy that is on on Steph, on Tatum,
on whoever.
Speaker 1: I have Chris Dune as well, for all the reasons
you listened. It was the minutes thing. I it was
tough to square away, but I approach it as like
once we get past the first team and then if
it's it's more so the third team, Like I'll fuck
around with if I believe the player has been better.
They don't have the minutes, but I do believe he's
been more valuable. Like Dune gets the nod for Amen Thompson. Uh,
he's like, is he the premier? Maybe you would figure
Dyson Daniels is, but like Amen, Toms might be the
premiere don't try it guy on the perimeter. But then
he's also a hybrid big as well.
Speaker 2: I think he's the guy most likely to him. Yeah,
And I think that's right because Daniels is like Daniels
will do the poke away. Thompson just like eats people
like he like, yeah, he does the more like embarrassing
stuff to you. So I think that's right. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then so I have lou Dort. I don't have
j Dubb. He was an He's an honorable mention for me,
and we'll get to those very quickly. I just he
shoulders the heaviest workload for the league's premiere defense, and
I somehow think over the past couple of seasons that's
been underappreciated. And so when you're playing as much as
he's going to play, and like, I don't like, I
just think what Jay Dubb does, what Shay does? I
even think like, would you be able to use Cason
Wallace and Alice Caruso the way that you do if
lou Dort does not exist? And to me, the answer
is just no. And so I considered him for first team,
and I have Bamn my first team. I can't, I don't.
He is, to me, probably the most versatile defender in
the he's he's certainly top five in versatility. The room
protection stuff has dropped off from last year, but like
he just guards no any of the defensive player that
your candidates we listed Draymond, Rudy, Evan Mobley, Wemby, Bamana
Bayo is more likely to guard a number one option
than all of those guys, and so to have that,
but you're also like kind of your team's big man.
I didn't know what to do with him, but I
think he firmly belongs on an all defense team.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's well, actually, I want to talk about
Dort first. I think Dort is a great pick, and
I totally agree that like he feels like he's a
victim of being such a known and understood commodity. Like
it's just because it's been however many you know what,
three four, maybe more than that year is where it's
just like that guy sucks to be guarded by because
he's so physic strong, he's so hard to screen. He
gets just up underneath you. If you're like a tall
like taller perimeter players. It's just hate being guarded by him.
But but it's like, oh chet Chet's amazing. Oh Alex Cruso,
there's there's the best of it. Oh Shay leads the
league in steals. Our Jada can play set like we
just forget about Dort. So I'm glad you have him
on here because like he and he's just like he's
one of the best defensive wings in the league and
he's been that for long enough and does it in
a way that's like unspectacular, and it's not fair to
exclude him for that reason.
Speaker 1: For by the way, as it added on To'm and Thompson,
it was between Tarry Easton or Am and Tooms, I
was just a rocket has to be on there, and
I think, Amen, Thompson is just better. Yeah, toughest cuts.
Speaker 2: For you man, Well, I kind of this is kind
of like our honorale mentions. Easan for sure was hard
to not put on there because maybe you can go
with the minutes on that, I guess, although I didn't
really for anybody else. The deflections like he just his
I don't know, do we talk about who's the most
disruptive defender, like because it might just be Ethan because
the way he just like speeds the game up, the
way he you know, causes deflections, creates transition opportunities. He's
doing a right up on him earlier this year, and
the Rockets transition frequency just goes through the roof when
he's on the floor, And it's just because like he's
causing mistakes and you know they get on runouts because
of him. So Chet is another one we should talk about.
If Chet had played five more games, he's probably first team,
I think, like without much fuss, So I have to
mention him. Let's see, Oh, here's one Oji in and
Obi for both of us did not make a first
or second team, and that feels wrong, but like there's
just only so many spots. Did you have a did
you have? I see he's one of your honorable mentions too.
Is there a reason that he just didn't quite get
the top ten for you?
Speaker 1: Honestly, I don't know. That's like a really good question.
I think that he hasn't been like he's been in
his role dominant and maybe I'm waiting the team returns
too much. That'd be a good one to look at revaluate.
I think the Knicks are in like the fifty fifth
percentile defense efficiency when he's on the court, when you
consider how much he's played with Karl Anthony Towns and
also how bad Michel Bridges has been for a lot
of this year. Yeah, that might be like that might
be an erroneous cuts where Okay, well look at how
much he's playing, why does he belong? Why doesn't he belong?
Overdone or Alman Thompson so all fully fully admit to
that one. I also had Jones Sugg was a really
tough cut for me. Orlando's defense is better with him
off the court. I didn't factor that much in Uh,
this is why I wish I had a third team.
I also think if there was a third team and
he had played more, I might have considered Kevin Durant
has been fantastic defensively. Tamani Kamara has been great in Portland.
Was another one. Trying to think if there's an you
had Zubats, I know you mentioned him already, I did
not really consider him. That might be one I need
to look at.
Speaker 2: I mean, Derek White Andrew Holiday, like we had.
Speaker 1: Just yeah, a Celtic Al Horford? Why not?
Speaker 2: Like sure, I mean Tatum even has been a really
good defensive play like just just.
Speaker 1: Low activity relative to like the guys that would be mentioned.
Speaker 2: In that It is interesting. I think I mentioned this
in the All NBA part, like it is interesting that
he guards centers and maybe maybe that's like that's.
Speaker 1: Your case for j Dubbs. So why is got to
be consistent?
Speaker 2: I think that's I didn't have Bam. Bam is obviously
someone that Warren's mentioned. But yeah, we've that's defense is hard.
Let's leave it at that.
Speaker 1: Our next category is Rookie of the Year, which just feels, oh,
we were I thought we were consensus here, So I
have I'll read mind first McCain at one, Steph Castle
at two, and then Janalen Wells at three. Who you got.
Speaker 2: I've got McCain one, Castle two as well, and I
went connect Dalton connect. He plays for the Los Angeles Lakers.
If you're unfamiliar or I have not seen any of
the media coverage about him, four year player out of
college is actually is I don't even know if he's
a four year player. I just know he had a
longer collegiate career than everybody thinks. That means he can't
be good, uh or better than this, which was so
hard because I well, should we talk about McCain and
Castle first, because.
Speaker 1: We were backwards, because we have our differences at number three?
Speaker 2: So Wells is a more complete player. Wells is a
good defensive player. I'm just making your case for you. Yeah,
I think Connects shooting is is just so valuable. You
can do it off movement. He has great size on
the wing. He's had probably I think it's the most
explosive game by any rookie of this season, the shrug
game when he just couldn't miss a three. I think
his I'm trying to well, I mean, because this was
the hardest one for me between him and Wells for
this third spot. I think I go Connect just because
he's a Laker, saying because he's a Laker and I
want this to do well in the big markets and
I'm a shill. Is that good? I just think the
shooting skill, the size, the offensive smarts, like I mean,
Wells has a lot of that stuff. It's easier for
me to make the case that that connect is just
going to be like a plus plus shooter. You know,
it has been a plus plus shooter and is the
kind of guy that defenses like freak out about I
don't know that that's the case with Wells.
Speaker 1: Here's my thing with Jylen Wills. The Grizzlies are sixth
in points loud per possession. They are better, stingier when
he's on the court. He's a rookie, and they have decided,
mostly out of necessity, you have to just go guard
all the other best players, and then he's gonna go
at the other end, and there'll be some stuff that
he does off the dribble that'll catch you off guard
every now and then, but he'll just hit his threes
if you want to say elite, like second most important
defender or I guess third. If you consider the Zachi
eighty minutes, top three most important defender on the league's
sixth best defense while hitting your threes at the other
end as a rookie, that's like if McCain never comes
onto the scene, like I think he has a case
to be better than Steph Castle here. I think it's
just I have Steph at number two versus McCain. We
can get into that now. I think McCain just as
a self starter on the offensive end, hitting difficult shots.
He's shooting like fifty percent off catch and shoot threes,
he'shooting over fifty percent two's. That is just going to
be like to drive any part of the offense as
a like initiator at this stage of the game. That's
a big deal. And then also his drives grant they
end in points. So a made bucket or free throws
sixty nine point five percent of the time. That's right
in line with Jason Tatum who's at sixty nine point
eight percent, and then shake Gilgos Alexander who's at sixty
nine point five percent, and we're not dealing with in
some sure there's a volume discrepancy, but per game, like
Jared McCain's drives are going to be through the roof.
I think he's at like nine or something a game.
That's just I think it matters that Steph has been
a Steph. People don't think I'm talking about Curry. Castle
has been a very good defender as a rookie. I
think we've seen flashes of playmaking on the offensive end.
I think we've also seen you can space him out
kind of far when he gets them to go in.
I'm a little bit I feel a little bit better
about his jumper, although the release just feels a little
bit low. Still, it was tough. But I think right
now and I think this will be interesting monitor before
I throw it to you, because what is if the
sixers are ever fully healthy, what does McCain's role look
like when Joelle Embiid and Maxie and George are available
at the same time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Unfortunately, that's not a concern for us at this
point because it's just based on what he's done. But
that is a question going forward for them because I
don't think, and I think rightfully there, I don't think
they're comfortable with him and Maxie as a backcourt together
just because of the size and the defensive issues. So
if it's possible that McCain becomes like a like a
really plus like luxury off the bench guard that can
run some of the offense, that will or you could
just run them around off the ball, whatever you want
to do. But I don't think that should detract from
like just he's been the most electrifying rookie scorer by
like just a stupid margin this year, right, Like he's
he's had games where he's been their top option. Like
you can't really say that about anybody else in this class.
Speaker 1: So consider, I want to make this fan base mad
because they hate me right now. And I love we
have some Rockets fans in the discord. I love you
join our discord. How's that for promo? Jared McCain and
that Clippers twenty twenty eight first round pick from the
Clippers for Tar Eastan. I think there has to be
more money involved, or maybe not. I can't but whatever,
If that's the framework, who says no, that Clippers pick
and McCain for Tar Easan? It's probably the Sixers, right,
Probably that McCain is better. But those are two, yeah,
really and McCain and Houston, they both probably say no
because if you're gonna play McCain, just fucking play Read Shepherd.
Speaker 2: Yeah right. That's a conspicuous absence from our our list
and our all rookie teams, which we're gonna get into,
do we. We don't really talk about Castle that much. Just
sucks terrible. I mean he does suck at shooting the basketball,
that is that is something that should be mentioned. He's great,
I think at everything else, including the intangibles that you
want to see in a guy. That like might ultimately
be number two to Wimby down the road.
Speaker 1: The fact that he's learning from CP three to two
gives me, imbuse me with some like lot of confidence
that he might turn into a murderer on offense at
some point, maybe inefficiently, but he'll still murder people.
Speaker 2: The athleticism, the like, the feel, the connective passing, all
that stuff is really there. It's you know, and if
he can make the ball go in the basket, this
I still think. I think Castle has the highest ceiling
in the class. It's just like the hurdle to get
over of can you make shots is like a pretty
big one, pretty significant concern for someone that you probably
want on the ball a lot, right.
Speaker 1: Ultimately, Yeah, let's get to the all rookie team. So
my first team i'll go first, is gonna include spoiler alert, Castle,
McCain and Wells. I also have connect on there, the shooting,
the motion shooting, huge element, and then I have Zachary Resiche.
I initially had Zach Edy and then you kind of
swayed me on this, so we have the same first team.
Yours will be revealed in a second. You can ask
me any questions you have about second team, but Zachary
Riche has just played. I know this isn't again these
these teams specifically, I'm not trying to wait. Like, to me,
minutes should matter more for rookie of the year than
they should for all rookie. He's been like double the
amount of minutes of zach Ede and so I just can't.
I can't get there. I will say though, like long term,
not long term, but looking ahead for the rest of
the season, which this is not. It does feel like
the Grizzlies might be more likely to close games with
Eadie than the Hawks are with Ree. That might be
something monitor but I mean, you had to rear share
on your first team, so I'll let you get it.
There are you any questions with like your first teams
the same? You don't have any questions about my first team,
I'm assuming.
Speaker 2: I just like, yeah, my question would be like when,
when exactly did you see the light that should be
on it over Edie?
Speaker 1: It look.
Speaker 2: Like if EDI's kind of the chet Holgrin of the
rookie side of If Eadie had played a little bit more,
I think it probably would have just been Eatie because
Reche is here for volume and just like passing the
eye test, like he's oh, you know, he seems fairly
comfortable and he can look the ball looks good when
he shoots it, it doesn't go in, and like he
can make a couple of passes and he does some
you know, intelligent stuff defensively, but like Edie made a
real impact when he you know, when when Edie's in
the game, you really feel him in a way you
don't feel Reche And he.
Speaker 1: Look he might be Brook Lopez. They've had him shoot
some threes.
Speaker 2: They have and like he's a good free throw shooter too.
That helped. Like, I don't know, like I think Edie,
Edie's one of the five best rookies. I think like
if you just had to redraft it or if you're
just reranking it on, like who you believe in going forward? Uh,
but you know, resa Chet's just he's been on the
court so much more and just all of his counting numbers,
you know, he's he's just well. The other thing I
wanted to mention is that, like I think you're right,
he's not going to close. He didn't close again that
overtime Lakers game last night, which was amazing and has
kind of resold me on the Hawks a little bit,
which is probably stupid because the Lakers might just be bad.
Speaker 1: I'm honestly just impressed that you were sold on the
Hawks in the first.
Speaker 2: Place, and then Reseld, Yeah, what do I mean? Oh well,
I think we picked them to beat there over Under
pretty handily, so.
Speaker 1: Maybe I have no idea to remember, but they're They're
one of the most like pleasantly confusing teams to me.
Speaker 2: So part of the problem with re like the on
off is real bad for REESI sche and he doesn't.
He's not going to close a lot and a lot
of that's just DeAndre Hunter and him don't play together,
and DeAndre Hunter's been really good, so that's just tough
luck for him. Second teams a little more interesting here.
I'm trying to look at the list and see who.
Speaker 1: We only had one difference. But my second team is
bub Carrington and Washington. So I'll run through my cliff
notes quick. I think Comfort getting to his spots on
the ball. I think he's a better passer than advertised,
and then he uses his size. Well there it can
be okay, the Wizard's defense sucks, but it's someone you
could envision being part of a defense. I put klingon here.
He's not going to be eligible by year's end because
he's about to miss a couple months, it looks like.
But he's been a game changer as like like a
defender and just like someone on the glass. Zach Edie.
We already mentioned Eve's mecI if you haven't checked him
out with New Orleans, and I don't know what if
you're a casual NBA fan, don't watch the Pelicans unless
they're playing your favorite team. You're not going to learn too.
My other getting a little healthier, But I would go
back and look at some Eves mecI stuff. You feel
him on the game, like as a rebounder, as an
energy bringer, as a finisher pretty good. I feel like
he could stand us set harder screens, but he getting
really good at navigating even tights bases in the half court.
And then I have Jonathan Mobo from Toronto. He's just
all like all grit and hustle and like, oh gonna
crash the glass there, and he's thrown some really nifty
passes this year. You could have gone like eighty different
directions though, because this rookie class is all over the place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love Mobo and the transition, like the grab
and go from him is really a valuable thing. And
like he's just the intensity in the hustle that that's
that's a real value. Add So the only difference I
guess in our second team is I have Tristan Da
Silva from the Orlando Magic over Mobo and I think,
or I guess, uh An Edie versus Ressche or no,
you ended up with Reces say.
Speaker 1: There, Yeah, I put him in my team. Yeah, you
change yours after you. So I'm on and that's what
I'm that's my my my slide came up first. That's true.
Speaker 2: There's no way to prove uh so uh just for
Da Silva like pretty darn unspectacular, but he did. He
has so far started two thirds of the games for Magic.
He's got great size on the wing. He's listed at
six to eight and he looks that he looks to
have that size. And it's kind of intriguing to think
about the Magic going forward with like Franz and Paulo
and De Silva and Anthony Black, if you know, we're
maybe going to little ways down the road here, But
like man that's a rangy team that still has like
enough ball handling. He hasn't been the shooter Da Silva
that probably Orlando hoped for as a draftee, like shooting
thirty three percent from deep, but like, I think he
still has shown enough like there's nothing fundamentally wrong with
the shot, and I think that is going to be
a carrying skill for him. I think I think he's
gonna shoot it better. But he still is like good
enough on the ball to make real you know, move
the ball, make connected passes, pretty smart playmaker, the leanth matters,
decent rebounder. This is a tough spot like Mobo for sure,
And we'll go through our honorable mentions here, but you
could probably make the case for literally anybody we have
in our in our quote unquote third team taking this
last spot.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The one that gave me way more pause than
I ever could have predicted at the start of the
season was aj Mitchell, Right, And Okay, see, dude is
a defender. He's it's gonna be interesting to see if
he'll be eligible because he's on a two way and
it's not like they have these roster spots available, so
if they're gonna elevate him. They're gonna have to figure
that out. I also have well collectively we have Osoi
Gadara and Ryan Dunn from Phoenix. Those are two names
that will pop up. I had to Silva in my
honorable mentions as well. Anybody else you wanted to shout out?
Speaker 2: I mentioned Mobo. Did you say modest Bizellis he was.
Speaker 1: That's someone who might just work his way into the
actual on one of these teams by season then yeah.
Speaker 2: He just didn't have a big enough role through I
don't know, the first like fifteen games of the season,
and he's had these like you've seen the putback dunk,
you've seen some of the transition stuff, Like I think,
and like you really don't get to discuss him anymore,
like not just talking about us without bringing up like
how insanely confident he is, which which I'm a fan of.
Uh So, he's someone I think if you're trying to
pick out like a riser, I think he's probably the guy.
I I so Alex Sar He's he's a good shot
blocker and can get a rebound, but man, he's bad
at everything. So does it matter that he really does
look like someone that can block shots, and that's about it.
Like that that's not enough to get on our first
or second teams. But I felt like he's got at
least one thing he does really well for this class
at he's playing time, so's he's commanding, he's a big
factor in commanding the tank. He's like, I don't know
who the pilot and co pilot are, but Kyle Kuzma
would like to be heard from. But we're talking about
rookies here for the Wizards tank, and Sara has been
helpful in that regard.
Speaker 1: You want to take us through our MP ballots.
Speaker 2: Yes, I would also say you can reference the podcast
we did that went up earlier this week about a
very long discussion about guys adding new skills. So I
have Franz first, Jadab second, Mobile third, and so this
is probably a good point too, because it's like these
neither none of those three fit the conventional like and
yours really don't either when we get to them, other
than maybe one like most improved criteria, I guess because
it tends to be guys that I don't know, for
lack of a more precise definition, go from like nothing
to something like you're Tied Jeromes for example, or like
even a Peyton Pritchard that isn't really nothing to something.
But you know what I mean, I.
Speaker 1: Was gonna say, is that convention though, because if you
look at like like I guess Larry Marketing counts as
someone who came out of nowhere, Tyre MAXI didn't come
out of nowhere, though, it feels like there's an intro
distancy to the way the award is determined.
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, so for this here's and we talked about
this a little bit, and we do every year. It's
like how it's kind of like how do you define
value in MVP? Like what does most improve mean? For me?
It's a leveling up, which either happens through sustaining a
certain level of permanent production in much harder circumstances. And
now often that means like a bigger role, like a
higher usage thing, and or adding a new skill that
like causes you to ascend from like whatever level you were.
You know, you're a rotation guy. Now you're a clear starter.
You're a starter. Now you're a star. You're a star.
Now you're an All NBA candidate or whatever, like, and
I think each wrung up that ladder you move sort
of matters more to me because it just gets harder
to sort of climb. So Franz's first to me for
a number of the reasons we discussed. It's just his
ability to add such a massive playmaking share, Like his
assist straight up over thirty percent, never over twenty percent
before turnover eight is bottoming out somehow, like it's lower
than it's ever been. Just the offensive load he's been
asked to carry. This is all just regurgitating what we
said when we discussed guys who have made leaps earlier
in the week.
Speaker 1: We went from it's not even he went from star
to MVP. He went from prospect to MVP camp.
Speaker 2: He went from like I think he's an okay second option,
but he's deeply flawed to Paolo Bankero to like he's
on our MVP ballots, Like that's that's in. That's a
huge leap, And I think that's slightly bigger than the
leap I have Jalen Williams making, because I think Williams
everybody thought he was better than Franz last year, right, Like,
so he's Jaylen Williams is also in an all second
team for me, I think you had him second team,
maybe third and made an All defensive team. For me, like,
that's just another level. And him being able to play center,
I think is just if you want this the new skill,
that's it for him mobile We've talked about a little
bit too, just becoming a totally different type of offensive
player while sustaining his defensive impact. Is did it for me?
Speaker 1: I tend to gravitate more what you did, where it's
more of these established players who has I might have
a harder like the one year where Stephan one Unandi
his MVP and people wanted to make the case that
he also could have won Most Improved Player. I'll listen
to any case, and I have opened my mind too.
I do think a sophomore could win the award, but
there probably needs to be a uniformity in the way
you're viewing it, at least in that year, to where
if you're gonna say it's tied Jerome, well then it's
like Will then Peyton Pritch are better be on your
list than too, as sort of these guys that either
took on bigger roles or came out of nowhere. I
think the players that we have have made harder leaps,
and so I have Fronz. We just went into that.
I have Norm Powell. That's like the guys who make
this is similar to Larry Market and except he's older,
where it's oh he's an established player. We thought we
knew what he was and I guess he's still kind
of doing the same things, except oh, he's shooting more
self created shots, getting down hillmore as a driver, and
his efficiency sustains and he's just scoring. He's over like
twenty he's not twenty three twenty four points a game
this year. That's huge. Like the Clippers offense isn't good,
how much worse would it be if Norman Powell didn't exist.
Speaker 2: And he's never been a second option, Like this is
a guy that you had had Paul George come back.
I think probably Norm Powell would have been our like
on the way up on the list of six man
for us, right like that that Like, so for him
to be a legit like one of the better second
option scores in the league now is just that, Like
that's just different.
Speaker 1: I have Cad at three. I think you could have
gone mobile here, and I think, look, if you want
to make the case for todd Errome, Grady Dick, Peyton
Pritchard also like they have cases. I'm not as much
into the I don't like kind of doing the I
guess this is taboo in our business, but I'm like
trying to anticipate with listeners or readers might think and like, yo,
why they might just cut our picks. I'm not a
huge fan of like the Jalen Johnson buzz. I know
that he's added some more signature passing, but he otherwise
feels a lot like the same player, Like he would
have won the award for me last year had he
qualified for a game. His leap was last year.
Speaker 2: His leap was last year.
Speaker 1: I feel like, yeah, but I have Kaid because the
efficiency on the threes is there. He's not getting to
the basket a lot, but over ninety percent of his
shots or unassisted. Once he gets there, he drives Detroit's offense.
And the bigger thing for me not is like he's
become to me a more active and better defender and
certainly a rebounder, and so to add that well, I
think incrementally improving on the offensive end given the level
that he's supposed to be at. I don't think that's
receiving nearly Like this is a player who is already
good and has now made improvement at both ends of
the floor, and that's a really big deal.
Speaker 2: I wonder too, if part of the case for him,
did you consider, Like it's kind of counterintuitive because we
tend to like celebrate guys like Franz as an example,
where it's like man degree of difficulty is high, right,
like the team around it, what he's doing is more
impressive because it's harder. But I think so for kid,
is doesn't the fact that like he's doing this and
making these incremental improvements in an environment that is now
like more successful, Like the Pistons are playing like they're better,
They're not getting like totally overlooked by every opponent every
night like they have been basically for his whole career.
Like did that factor in Where it's like I think
you could argue that he's like driving the success to
a large extent, but like it sort of matters more
kind of the same way we view like what someone
does in the playoffs is more valuable than regular season,
Like he's actually getting like real opponents.
Speaker 1: Now, Yeah, I think that matters. It's also because I
think if the Pistons were the Pistons, if the Pistons,
if the Pistons were pissing all over the place. But like,
look at all these players or any of them on
truly terrible teams right now. Kay Cunningham is on the
worst team. But like even Tyrese Maxie wins it last year,
not on a bad team. The year that Larry Market
didn't won it the Jazz, weren't they mean they had
like their mid season tank job that year. I think
I can't remember actually, So yeah, I mean I think
that definitely has to matter. There were there any other
I mean, there were a bunch of other names that
I would point to. We went through like twenty five
players that we think qualifies most improved players. So go
watch that episode, listen to that podcast, YouTube podcast description,
and subscribe while you're there. Any other names, Actually, I
want to ask you about one specifically, because I do
think there's going to be a ground swell for this player.
What do you make of the Wemby case?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you can make it on the strength
of like what he's doing. It's kind of a little
bit like for kid, It's like, well, now it's like
in a winning environment, certainly like to a larger extent
than it had been last year. The new skill is
the three point volume. Like I think maybe your mileage
will vary on that, whether depending on like whether you
think that's a good thing for him to be doing.
I think, like I'm I'm a very I'm very much
of the like, please explore the space, like if if
it turns out that you're a high volume three point
shooter on offense and that's what you do and cool
to keep like chuck them, that's fine. I think, like,
is there anything beyond the three point volume and just
like the continued improvement defensively to like make the most
improved case for him. Not saying I disagree, I just
like that's that's the argument, right, I don't.
Speaker 1: I really don't think there is. I don't know if
the passing has gotten marketedly better or at least not
enough his case. Sophomores are so tough, man, especially when
you're talking about because we went through this with j
dub last year, Wemby won Rookie of the Year and
like to be now he's on an All NBA team,
Like you could say that second year players are supposed
to improve, but that's not that's not an easy thing
to do. Did I lose your first second? Yeah?
Speaker 2: First second notes it's I agree, it's not an easy
thing to do. And I think for Wenby, like his
second half was way better than his first half last year,
So I think maybe now I didn't have the three
point volume, but I think you could make a little
bit of the Jalen Johnson case to where like the
improvement sort of and now that's has sort of already happened.
That feels kind of stupid to say, because I think
he's just going to trend up for like seven more years,
so the improvement will be ongoing. But I take your
point there. What about like like Ti Jerome is the
name we've mentioned several times, and he very much went
from he's the nothing to something Canada right like if
the bigger role, Yeah, bigger role just shooting a shit
ton more. But like for Jerome, do you hold are
we holding it against him that? Like I think of
a lot of these guys, he's the one that's just
like you can brush off as unsustainable shooting, Like is
that is that part? Is that hurting him here?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think I think if we were trying to
make yes, because whether we're picking it right now or
trying to project forward, there is when you do look
at this though, and I think it's implicit to maybe
where you're not consciously acknowledging it, you are thinking about
the sustainability of what you're watching.
Speaker 2: I hate that though, because if we're not supposed to.
Speaker 1: Be because like Jalen Green would win it every March,
so any long lit like, I just don't know. I think, look,
if you want to pick the Jeromes, I think that's fine.
It's just this could be a fundamental difference of how
you treat the award. And a lot of this stuff's
open for interpretation. None of it is just purely fact based.
And look we have hint in here or hind m
ipjal On Johnson. I can't get his case was last
year and I think he's a better passer this year
and he's made it like enough improvements and if yes,
he's gonna be on our long ballot. Yes he's mentioned,
so is we have Jay and Ivy on here. Christian
Brown's another interesting name. I think he's the one some
people like might be the most the one that kind
of bridges the gap most like the ven diagram of
people who want the smaller roller out of nowhere guys
and then the more established guys, and he kind of
bridges that that gap. I just he hasn't improved enough
in the one area that I think the Nuggets desperately
need improve it from. And that's three point volume.
Speaker 2: That's his percentage is up.
Speaker 1: Great, his ball handling's up to The Nuggets don't fucking
need any of that because he's not flowing those minutes
without nikol Jokic on the court. Look, but he belongs.
So there's like any other names that you would throw
out there.
Speaker 2: Uh, Jay and Ivy was one we talked about just
the the off ball shooting has been better. I'm trying
to think, uh tru J and Ivy, Oh, I mean
r J Barrett. The passing growth is is a massive
like new skillslopment.
Speaker 1: Let's just let's keep naming raptors.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Bojie, Grady Dick, there's your second year guy. But yeah,
let's go down the raptors list. I think that's pretty
that's fairly exhaustive there. The winby thing, as I was,
as you were talking, so after the break last year,
he was averaging like twenty three, twelve and five on
shooting splits that are basically what he's doing this season.
So like he's another guy that like the unless you're
just enamored of, like, oh my god, look how many
threes he's shooting. Like offensively, he's had you know, the
the and the box box score production wise, like kind
of did this last year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point too. I'm trying to think
there's any other candidates if if you're listening to this
and want to, I guess Tyler Hero kind of as
a cursory mentioned just because he has really reinvented his
offensive profile, which is a big but that doesn't really
fit the spirit of this discussion.
Speaker 2: Bill All would have been Shrewder is a good one. Kolbally,
like I mentioned, just on the ball a little bit
more should be on it, way more. I mean, Jordan
Poole is like a productive offensive player right now.
Speaker 1: I think I.
Speaker 2: Really think Corey Kispert's off ball movements improved.
Speaker 1: So I think six Man of the Year's mine, right,
So I have Peyton Pritchard at one AM and Thompson
at two and Nikil Alexander Walker at three our ballots
do include two of the same players, So do you
just want to give your ballot really quickly?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got Pritchard one, Scotti Pittman Junior two, and
I'm and Thompson three. Pritchard was easy, Like, I felt
real good about Pritchard at one, just because of the
three point volume and accuracy and just the the fi
or second man thing.
Speaker 1: Right, the only argument against him would be, I think
that's some of these or a lot of these players.
And I've definitely thought about it this way in the past.
Where is there a sixth man that's going to close
for their team? And with Boston at full strength, Peyton
Pritchard has no shot in hell of closing. But that's
not an indictment of Peyton Pritchard.
Speaker 2: I mean by that logic, I'm ready to start making
the case that Thompson should just start and finished games
every night for the Rockets, Like if that's really it,
like six man some Yeah, to your point, six man
is a lot of times like who's actually a starter though,
you know, like and I think Thompson kind of fits
that bill better than anybody else. But I got Pippin
Junior at two, which pains me because you have one
of my one of my all time faves.
Speaker 1: You got gnaw, Yeah, why am I riding for your
guys more than you? With the exception of j dub
in this you were anti Draymond, Now you're anti Nikhil,
Alexander Walker or is everything. I'll ride at home.
Speaker 2: It's part of my It's been a long long con
to just incept like all my favorite players into your brain,
and you've really sorry. You've fallen for it. So pretty
soon I won't have to have takes because you'll just
be the one offering them.
Speaker 1: Odds is my Coach of the Year pick. I'll make
the knockades the knock caase is he's one of the
most efficient shooters in basketball this year off the catch.
He has like an effective field goal rate of seventy
on catching shoe jumpers, and he can do some stuff.
They've had to put him in point guard spots at times.
I haven't loved it. He can still get going downhill
and he's still we didn't mention him, but like if
we were making an even longer list, like he's still
up there with all defense and I think that you
can well, I don't think I believe this is a fact,
which is why I'm saying it. He has been thrown
the contracts out the window. More valuable to the Minnesota
Timberwolves this year than Jade McDaniels. That is a problem,
but it's also fucking cool if you're an a kill
Alexander Walker fan, so and him and Thompson, by the way,
they don't have like the maybe even Scotti Pippen junior,
they don't really have like the typical sixth man because
I'm in Thompson for me is just rooted and he's
a defensive predator as you call him, and yeah he
can do like there's stuff he'll do. He's a nuclear
athlete on offense and with not even he's not you know,
that usual scorer you would see in this slot like
Peyton Pritchard comes closest to meetiamat criteria because he's averaging
a trillion points per thirty six minutes. But I think
we've evolved from the point of it does doesn't have
to be the bench guy who scores the mostion if
you if you want to do a better job of
like so, I think if you look at Amen Thompson
as an example, do you think he does a good
enough job blending both lines. That would be a discussion
to have. I think, nah, certainly does. But I've kind
of moved past I think in years. Definitely not recently,
but like a half decades hour ago, I found myself
like being magnetically pulled to the Jordan Clarkson types Lou
Williams types.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's kind of unavoidable. I just I mean, that's
really the Pritchard case a little bit like who points,
you know, but it's not it's not the Lou Williams points.
These are different points that Pritchard's scoring.
Speaker 1: You getting off the ball so quickly like Mortivic Johnts
are coming with like fewer than two seconds of touch time.
It's crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so uh, I think I think Pippen obviously fails though,
Like is he actually a starter test just for the
Grizzlies specifically? I think he probably couldn't.
Speaker 1: He has needed to start. Does that well?
Speaker 2: Again, that's also another like if we're trying to be predictive,
like that's a sneaky bonus if you rather, like you know,
Bogan Bogdanovitch for example, like would rack up enough start
And it's just a very good bench player who will
be on long lists, I'm sure. But Pippin the case
for him is just like he is a phenomenal driver
of the basketball on offense, getting almost ten drives a
game in like twenty three minutes a game that's hard
to do. Good passer, good distributor really good on ball defender,
just good enough of a shooter. I think. I don't
know if you like feel great if he's your starting
point guard, but I do think he is better than
some guys that teams are starting, and so for the Grizzlies,
I think his ability to it's a little bit like
a Tias Jones thing where it's like, that's nice if
you've got that guy as either your your second stringer
or the guy you need coming in to start when
you know John Morant missus timer is hurt so.
Speaker 1: Exceptional passer by the way, Like that is that the
most at this point atypical six manut of year case
to where it's if you don't go with the score, it's, well,
look at how great this guy is on defense, because
seldom is it. Well look at like this game manager, playmaker.
Speaker 2: Well, it's like Tias Jones had some Tias Jones must
have had some pretty high finishes in six man I can't. Yeah,
that's a good point, but yeah he's not. He's not
Tist Jones because Scottie Pipman will get into you defensively.
So yeah, I like him there. I don't know how
I feel about his like staying power, because.
Speaker 1: I think Ridley's well, honestly, they're never going to be
healthy at this point, so just I mean, like, I
think Thompson is gonna be first or second on my ballot.
Speaker 2: Assuming he doesn't, I mean, he might not have staying power.
Speaker 1: He might start too much the two names, and we
can get in some other tough cuts that I'll be modering,
and actually we have. One of them was mentioned in
the chat. Douce McBride has been fantastic. I think, look,
there have been games where I think that he should
be closing over Michal Bridges, not so not so much lately,
but he's been great for them, like someone who was
plugging play on offense and defends his butt off the
other one. And I think this is the award more
so than most improved player for him. I just if
you're under twenty minutes per game, it's really tough Ti Jerome,
like this would be the tie Jerome spot and I
could see him just like if this shooting even comes
close to sustaining, I might just have to pick him
for at least number two. Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: I wonder if and Karris LeVert on his own team
as somebody else, we should probably mention just that shot
the ball. Great, he's much.
Speaker 1: More and well again for this is the year two
or three of him just oh.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, he he has the more conventional like Jordan
Clarkson like reputation. I guess that you want in your
six men. Buddy Healed was there for a minute and
is not anymore. Like if we've done this two weeks ago,
I might have had Buddy Heald like first or second,
but he just hasn't made shots. And that's if your
buddy Healed and you're not making shots, you're not super helpful.
Speaker 1: Do you think at some point too, like DeAndre Hunter
might need to be slotted in here?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he's been man. He was good against
the Lakers and has just been really made me think
like has it just been that he couldn't get healthy
like just for years on end? Basically because I think,
I mean, we're looking at how he's playing now, it's
hard to imagine how he wasn't regarded more highly. I mean,
the Hawks could pay him a fair amount, like when
what he's getting actually counted as a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't, I don't know necessarily explainer, but if
he had more than I think, what is he had
three hundred and sixty five minutes for the season, like
he like, that's like those are all guys I think
cold just outright this award. I guess Peyton Pritchrick has
it on lock, but it still feels very much debatable
for the rest of the year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I do think if it's not Thompson,
there's a I guess, like, yeah, I was gonna say
it could be another Rocket, but I don't. I don't
think like if you move Thompson in and Jalen Green,
actually Jalen talk about a guy who fits the six
man mold, Like if Jalen Green were coming in and
just chucking, that would make a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: Heine says Jay Huff is the most entertaining six man
a year. Like let's just start naming grizzlies. Yeah, let's
just go all with Grizzlies. Gig Jackson hasn't played yet.
I'd like to nominate in the reserve. The best thing
about Jay Huff. I know this has been discussed, but like,
if Jay Huff is on a top ten plays list,
like if you're watching League Pass and in the commercial breaks,
I'll have the top ten plays, He's guaranteed he the
highlight is guaranteed to be a reverse dunk. Like I
just I'm so enthralled that like he like unnecessarily, he
just prefers to dunk facing the other way, and I'm
I'm a fan of it. I just enjoy that about
his game.
Speaker 1: Anybody else you think deserves a call out for this
before we move on, Uh, let's see.
Speaker 2: I mean, if Al Horford goes back to the bench,
let's nominate him once Portzing gets back. I don't know.
I feel like we're forgetting somebody from our most improved
discussion who kind of had some overlap. But no, I
don't think so. I think we can move on.
Speaker 1: That would bring us to Coach of the Year. This
is always the toughest one for me because these dudes
have forgotten more about basketball than I'll ever know. In
the past ten seconds. And obviously I feel comfortable picking
MVP awards because I'm smarter at basketball than Nicole Jokic
and Tatum and Sga, et cetera. So that's I don't
I don't worry about picking those even a little bit. No,
but who's your Coach of the Year ballot? What's on?
Speaker 2: I feel like I haven't like gone away from this
enough after the fifteen and oh start, But I still
think I got Kenny Atkinson one. I think there's a
lot to be said for taking essentially the same team
and just making it better by changing how it plays. Now.
The counter is Cleveland just hasn't missed a shot all year,
and like, does that is that attributable to Atkinson? No?
But I think making the right like Macro calls on,
here's how Evan Mobley should play, Here's how we can
make Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell not feel like a
your turn, my turn operation, Like this was a thorny
like situation to step into after the way last year ended.
And I just think, oh, like, the level of team
performance is super high, and I think a lot of
it owes to just like maybe it's not like a
lot of tweaks, but enough like high level things that
Atkinson can be credited for. I think I think he
has to be recognized there. I've got Jenkins two and
Joe Missoula three. I know you've got Jenkins won. So
what's maybe what's your case for Jenkins at the top.
You don't have to sell me because I got them too.
Speaker 1: The thing with Taylor Jenkins is if I was lost
in the wilderness, I feel like he could provide for me.
Just look at him.
Speaker 2: I think I think that's an unassailable argument of among
NBA coaches, who do you have more confidence in setting
up shelter in the woods and providing food for you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and finding figure out a way to like fine
water or distell it down from his own urine or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say Joe Miszoula talks about the animal
kingdom way more though, So that's a fact.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have Jenkins one. Just the Grizzlies rotation has
still been all over the place. Is normalizing a little
bit now, but like when you look at their most
played players, this is not ideal. And their top seven
in offense and defense, like that's just like I think
Coach the Year tends to go to the guy who's
steering the team that's the biggest or seeding expectations the most.
The Grizzlies are somehow both where it's they were this
we had high expectations and they were this known quantity
and they're even better by those metrics. You mentioned this
before we started recording, and I think it's important the
fact that he's done this, because we don't. They overhauled
his coaching staff over the summer, so he comes in
on the hot seat. We don't even know how much, say,
he had in building up his coaching staff, and so
then to like still, this is where the Grizzlies are
when you factor an injury like Jah Moran hasn't been available,
Marcus Martin hasn't been available, or even necessarily good. Jared
Jackson junior has been your most valuable player. You've had
to change all these different lineups. You're relying on rookies.
The Jalen Wells is like just guarding the other team's
best player. I think you have to give him a
ton of credit for that. The Atkinson case is strong,
Mizulla and dag Nault, so I have Diagnault two and
Kenny Atkinson three, and we'll get into this is a
long list. This is always the one that feels the
longest list. Deagnault Miszoula, I feel like you're kind of
head to heads, like who's the best coach in basketball?
Speaker 2: Yeah, right now?
Speaker 1: And so I look at Missoula kind of planning around
what the Celtics did without porzingis matters. I like what
Dagnault's done in the face of there was this chet
home Grid injury, and first there was isa A Hertenstein injury,
and yet they're still just gonna build this incredible defense anyway,
despite being undersized. You could say, well, look at the
personnel he has, but that goes for Missoula as well.
But there, I think they're in terms of the best
coach in basketball, which I view this as a single
season award where what tells the story or defines this
single season more. That's why I have Jenkins and Actings
in up there. Uh, But dag Nault Missoula are right
there for me too. They've both done fantastic jobs. And
I would echo everything you said about Atkinson for sure.
And also he's clearly responsible for ty Jerome right. Obviously
they found him.
Speaker 2: He told him to never miss a floater or a three.
Speaker 1: Cleveland was that Max strews either, by the way, it's so.
Speaker 2: I think the I don't have dagnault on here, and
it just like feels wrong.
Speaker 1: And it's just with Missoula.
Speaker 2: For me, it's so stupid that we just the coach
of the year thing is like we just if you
win it. I'm like, sorry, we're not gonna consider you
next year. Like it just back to back coach of
the year wins do not happen, like full stop. It's
just like never ever happens. And that's dumb because it's
not like Dagnaud is a worst coach this year and
then he won last year when he won it, and
so like and we also I think sometimes penalize a team,
like if you win, if you win a ton of
games after not winning a lot of games, that's gonna
help you. But then if you continue to win a
ton of games, we stop caring. It's kind of the
I'm making the same, like the same observation, just framed differently.
So yeah, like it just you know you and you
can go back to like now this isn't the year,
but like Eric Spolster just is always the guy that,
like other coaches pick as the best coach in the
league or the GMS, and it's just like he's won once.
I think, so this is Coach of the Year is
as fraud as like almost any award. Who's on who's
your toughest cut?
Speaker 1: I guess, well, Missoula and then Tyler just the Clippers
offense is bad, but I don't know what he's supposed
to do with it. They are they're dead last in
point score for possession after timeouts, which I feel like
he is supposed to be Tyler's bread and butter. So
that was a little bit of a differentiator for me.
But look, look at I know they have strong defensive
personnel in place, but they are battling in a Western
conference where they don't have their two of their three
most important players from last year, who in theory, are
still supposed to be two of their three most important players.
Paul George is gone, Kahi Leonard yet to play this season.
James Harden, he's starting to come alive a little bit,
and we'll still get to the foul line, like he
has not been even close to peak James Harden, and
yet Clipper's just sitting over five hundred contending for a
playoff spot in the West. Him and Missoula were my
toughest cuts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, lou was my toughest cut, actually, I guess in
a unofficial tie with I had Emmiodoka on my ballot
for a long time.
Speaker 1: Cut too.
Speaker 2: He's like I guess he fits into the like expectation
defying like category. I suppose because we didn't think the
Rockets were going to be this good and and like
we always like it more. I think in terms of
like apportioning credit to a coach if it's a defense
that really like because you always got the buy in
and always like you know that, that feels like more
of a coach thing. So Udoka was tough. Jordi Fernandez
is another, like the first.
Speaker 1: Of all the should fire him, Well, that's.
Speaker 2: The thing, like he should windows and get fired. He failed.
He does not understand the assignment. Like that's I mean,
maybe we underrate like how difficult that is to come
into a situation where like clearly the objective is to
lose and like, but also you're trying to establish a
culture and like not form bad habits and like somehow
toe the line. Now on like he has won too
much for for Brooklyn's purposes. I'm sure if you ask,
like what they actually really want to.
Speaker 1: Happen, But eighth in half court offense.
Speaker 2: With with what with Dennis Shrewder and Cam Thomas before
Cam Thomas got hurt, Like that's insane.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the move there is because you don't
coaches should never coach to lose. I would vehetdly disagree
if like with people who feel that way. That being said,
that might lend merit to like maybe make these trade
decisions earlier where it's Dennis Shrewder and Dorian Finney Smith
and like two of them and Camp Tom like Camp
not Camp, well maybe Cam Thomas but also Cam Johnson.
Ship those guys out and then you build the culture
from there. So if they overachieve, it looks oh, it's like,
oh they're they're seventeenth and a half court offense rather
than oh, whoops. Another name I considered Jamal Mosley. Yeah,
you mentioned how we like to gravitate towards the coaches
that might be responsible for defense. Orlando chug Along also
without Polo. I would like an investigation into why it
feels like players, whether it's out of the draft or
in free agency, go to Orlando and then shoot worse
than expected, Like Franz was considered a better shooter coming
into Orlando, and then CACP was considered a better shoot
than this. Even Paulo was considered a better shooter than
he was kind of coming into Orlando. So I'd like
some investigations done into that. But overall, he's done a
bang up job for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anybody else, I think those are all we've did.
Speaker 1: The big one, well we forgot there's a big one.
And I just want to shout him out for being
brave enough to play mcal Bridges forty six and a
half minutes in a blowout win over the Charlotte Hornets.
Tom Thibodeau a man of principle, fuck your minutes minutes management,
and you know what I and I'm not taking a
shot at Knicks fans here. Oh we have a good
question after this in the chat I want to get to.
But he's also convinced Knicks fans that this is a
good thing.
Speaker 2: He's sale where it was like.
Speaker 1: Oh, that second half against the Hornets was the easiest
twenty four minutes or twenty minutes Michel Bridges has ever
played and it's no, it doesn't work like that, But
he's got the fan base buying into it, so I
respect it. I feel like it's eventually going to come
back to fuck them over in the playoffs and in
certain situations it's not look at the lack of options
at his disposal, like the Hornets one. I think you
could argue was pretty irresponsible the way those minutes where
you inured, and so you're deciding to then play all
these other key guys too many minutes in a game
that you were gonna win.
Speaker 2: I like to view that as him basically saying to Bridges,
like you get out there, and you stay out there
until you figure it out, Like you'll come back and
sit down until you quit being bad on defense. Just
you get out there. It was like a very like
angry parent situation.
Speaker 1: Do you think Quinn Snyder is going to deserve some
like Atlanta's defending well and it's oh, the offense will
be fine once Trey Young continues to hit more shots.
Speaker 2: Well, I think yeah. I mean the fact that they
have been as successful relatively as they have been with
Young just not shooting and scoring as well as he
has in the past is a plus. I also think
it's a plus that Young's usage rate is at a
career low. Like I think he's final like he it
hasn't been like the overhaul that maybe some expected when
Snyder showed up. It's like, oh, we're getting the jazz offense. Now,
everybody's gonna get touches. But he's like slowly peeling away
some of the usage to where it is like I
wouldn't go so far as to say it's a it's
like an egalitarian offense where it's just like whoever has
the advantage gets to It's not that, but it is
like closer to that, and that's a hard thing to
do because that just has not been how Atlanta has played.
And yeah, defense, the defense is finally not awful. It's
like midpack, which is great. I think he if the
Hawks they've won six in a row now, if they
like really solidify themselves as the top six team in
the East, I think he does have to get some consideration.
Speaker 1: The other one I wanted to shout out just because
we shouted out Jordi. I think Darkoreyakovic has done a
great job Toronto. I said this on the other podcast
they're the most entertaining team below for.
Speaker 2: Me, and he really gets credit for the sense of that,
from the sense of like you're just using what you
got and you're kind of gonna see like the RJ.
Barrett stuff is great, and he's like playing some rookies
and just he's throwing it. He's getting the most of
what he has.
Speaker 1: I think, Uh, this is a fun question. We didn't
do a battle for this, but grant who's been the worst?
Is it Chauncey Billups? That's from Uh.
Speaker 2: Billups is up there and seems like he has been
for several years. Man, who's been Like who's done a
bad job?
Speaker 1: I think this might be unpopular, but Mike Brown, like,
you gotta do more to kind of rework Sacramento shot
profile at this point, what's that.
Speaker 2: Leading the league in mid range frequency by an insane margin.
Speaker 1: And I understand the personnel, and I also understand that
Keagan Murray has been infected by whatever Kevin Herder has
when it comes to shooting, but like, you need to
get more out of like that offense specifically, and I've
been a little bit it feels like he's still kind
of searching for his rotations and playing a lot of
times it feels like he's playing who he feels like
he should or feels like is the politically correct answer,
rather than who should actually just be out there. I
don't think he's been I wouldn't call him the worst
coach in basketball by any stretch. I guess Billups might
be the answer. I don't I mean, Billy Donovan taking
so long to get to bizellis do you want like
to throw that out there? But at the same time, like,
look at what Levigne and Vooch have done under him
this year. I don't. Do you have any qualms about
what Rick Carlisle's doing in Indiana?
Speaker 2: Is he even like at some point you might get
some Carlisle k just because like the thing Indiana was
supposed to be good at, which is offense, they're not
so good, Like I just and there. I don't know
how much of that's personnel though, I mean it's like
how much control do you have over over like Tyres
Haliburt and like just like losing his magic.
Speaker 1: I like that. This is the question that brings out
the more of the comments. But honestly, carl might be
a good answer, because are you kind of like they've
slowed down a bunch, and I know they have Pascal Siakam,
but like, don't slow down your offense for Ben mcmathrin, please, no,
don't do that. So that might be a good answer.
It's probably Billups though, but I don't you mentioned personnel.
It's just they've given him a team that doesn't really
make a ton of sense. So what else is he
gonna Molly wants to say Hi twice? What's up? Molly
and Herschneck. I don't really what that means. You can
explain that in the chat. Hello to you too, Sosh. Yeah,
that's a tough question. I think the answers probably Bill Ups,
but I would keep an eye just relative to expectations
Carlile and Brown, right, am I missing anyone?
Speaker 2: Well, depending on the day, Steve Kerr gets nominated by
by Warriors fans as just like fire him immediately. You know,
you know where I stand on Steve Kerr. I defend
Steve Kerr no matter what he does, and I will
continue to do that.
Speaker 1: But why did he make your Coach of the Year ballot? Then?
Speaker 2: Because he's he's like moved beyond. He doesn't like we
don't still nominate Phil Jackson for Coach of the Year.
That's where Steve Popovich I do think he does deserve
some criticism for just continuing to are you ready? Just
like it's been there have been too many cases of
young guys just not getting chances, and I've always thought
like they got to earn him. But like, if you're
really got the short leash on them in ways that
some of the other guys don't, and you know you're
not gonna give consistent minutes to go guys like kaminga
Moses Moody is everybody's favorite example.
Speaker 1: Well, do you know what happened in that loss against
the Timberwolves on Friday night? Moses Moody wasn't even actually injured.
They just he just ruled him out for the game.
After he went on the court, he's like, no, it's live.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they always got knee soreness, get him out. But yeah,
I think we've I think we've got it's probably Bill Ups, right, Like,
how about this? What has Chauncey Billups done that that
makes you say, I think he's yeah, okay, that was
really a smart decision, Like he's got.
Speaker 1: Unleashed Kimani Kamara unleash.
Speaker 2: Him further, how about that?
Speaker 1: What do you want you want to running picking rolls?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Everything?
Speaker 1: Uh, the other one. Here's the thing. So I was
out and about late Friday night. I didn't see JJ
Reddick anywhere grinding film. Granted I'm on the East coast
and he's on the West coast. But is it time
to start talking about whether the Lakers made this huge?
Like he should be everywhere all at once, grinding film
at all hours of the day.
Speaker 2: What Like, At what point, though, seriously, will we get
the like real ground swell of it wasn't dark? I
think we're already seeing a little bit of it. Like
you see the record comparison, like through X number of games,
Here's where Darvin Ham had the Lakers at. Here's what
JJ has him at. It wasn't Darvin Ham's fault. Like,
at what point will because you know it's coming. If
the Lakers continue to struggle and JJ Redick has like
called him out, he's like been real direct about the
level of play, Like, at what point will fans start
to say it's Reddick's fault?
Speaker 1: I would it's coming. I think it's like if it's not,
if they continue to I'm gonna say by January first. Okay,
if they're below five hundred, it'll be coming. But I
honestly think that's more of a this front office for
years Grant now has basically made no good material changes
to the personnel, and the sword has always fallen on
the head coach, which I'm not saying Darvin Ham was perfect.
There were a lot of smart people who thought he
deserved to be fired. But come on, oh, finally, because
we need to move on. Like Chris Finch trying to
make Julius Randall happen too much and then also trying
to sell us on the Julius Randall trade. Yeah, unforgivable.
Not a fan, everyone's favorite award executive of the year.
Speaker 2: I have a theory.
Speaker 1: Would you care to listen to it for a second?
Speaker 2: M yeah, always, all right, we'll skip it.
Speaker 1: No, do you think that the new collective Bargaining Agreement
it's kind of kneecapped transactions, like kind of on both
fronts with free agency because of how extensions work now
and then even trades because of the different aprons and
how reticent teams are to use X or lock themselves
into the first apron like being hard tapped there and
by extension. That makes this award a little bit harder
because I feel like the past, like in previous years,
you and I've always had these long lists, and you
and I spent here's a peep behind the curtain way
too long trying to figure out who our third selection
is going to be for this.
Speaker 2: One short, short answer. Yes, it is like it's made
things harder to do, like functionally, it's all. It's just
made things harder to do. Like I'm never gonna forget that.
It was probably like two weeks ago Brian Windhorst had
a quote from an executive in the league talking about
how like we had these we had three iterations of
this trade and or we had a trade set up,
and it turned out there were like three different reasons
we couldn't do it legally under the new CBA, and
we didn't even know. We didn't even understand one of them.
So it's just like the rules are such now that
like even if there's a will, there's just like not
a way to do stuff. So yeah, I totally agree,
it was really hard. Part of that is because some
of the executives over the offseason that we thought had
done a very good job have not gotten results and
removed themselves from consideration. Here, Darryl Morey, Yeah, I that
he he was?
Speaker 1: Was he our preseason pick? I'm pretty sure he was
when you're talking about it. But yeah, So for me, well,
why don't you go through your sort because I think
that you made an egregious error at number one?
Speaker 2: Oh really? How dare you? Because he's your number two
and there's a gap there.
Speaker 1: Yes, because there's just no good options. But you picked
Sean marks one, so spoilers trying to he is not
watching go through your ballot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I got Sean marks one. Anytime you can
get five first and a swap for Michale Bridges and
then mckal bridges goes on to basically suck on both ends,
you're a winner, I think. I mean that's part of it.
Hiring Jordy Fernandez is part of it. I guess we
give him some credit too for presiding over the I
don't know, it's always so hard to decide who's like
in charge of like the vibes. It's probably more coach
than executive. But I think we can give Marx a
little bit of the credit for like making Brooklyn kind
of like a fun like way overachieving place to be
where all of you've got so many agendas, Like all
these guys know they're getting traded, and all these young
guys like want certain roles and it's just hard. It's
like a tough place to be. I think I'm giving
him some credit for that going like functionally pretty well
so far. I got Presty second, I'm sure we had
him high preseason, just you know, the Hartenstein thing is
like you had the money and you did it, but
it was also somewhat bold because you have chet Holmegrin
at center.
Speaker 1: But it's like hasn't he been but not that you
need to be vindicated. He's certainly been revalidated having Hart
and Stock with you, Chet home Grid injury right.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's part of the reason he's here. Uh And
the career you win the Caruso trade, you get off
Josh Giddy's contract before you have to make a decision
to spend on it. I think that we like several
of their rookies, even though the roles have been tiny,
because they're just a deep team. Uh so I we're
going to be here forever. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The deals for Isaiah, Joe and Aaron Wiggins too. I
thought were smart paying them a little bit early so
that you get them on the steal of the deals. Uh,
Molly Enterstecas should she sub yes or no? I would say,
I mean, if you like the NBA, yes, otherwise I
don't don't really know why. If you're how are you
not subscribed to as already? If you like the NBA?
If you're here's my thing. So Sean Marks built a
roster that was supposed to tank and there they're not?
Really so how is he number one?
Speaker 2: Too good at his job? Sorry?
Speaker 1: I have a number two? It was just kind of
splitting hairs. I think when you frame it like, I
think you're being I know you were being hyperbolic about
mckil bridge is actually sucking. But getting as much as
you did for someone who will probably never make an
All Star team, right, incredible? I have Lawrence Frank and
part of this is a mayakopa because we destroyed the
Clippers off season by letting Paul George walk for nothing. YEP.
I still think that's a controversial way of managing the asset,
but you can't argue with the results you got. Chris Dunn,
Derek Jones Junior coming out of it, you were able
to unlock Norman Powell, like is playing this role the
Kawhi Leonard extension you could dig them for except that
happened last year, so that's not going to be part
of this. I think you look at what the Clippers
that built and even I maybe are the Zoobots extension?
What was that? Three years and fifty nine million? Just
about everything turning out well? And I think even the
James Harden deal where you're just not locked Okay, yeah,
it's a player option, you're just not locked into James
Harden long term, I think that works out well for them.
I do wonder if I'm putting him here, is he
benefiting too much from like, oh, there's guys that already
on the roster that are just playing like these bigger
roles and a lot better perhaps like in a mere
Coffee as an example there. But I just I think
he deserves to be here because I think everyone probably
just destroyed the Clippers for the off season that they had,
and it's it looks like are they a contender? No,
but they feel like they're one player away from being so,
and like that player might be on the roster if
Kawhi Leonard's ever healthy, bring back Nick Matoom, because I
forget about that that's been big for them. Like the
Kevin Porter Junior signing was dumb in the moment, looks
dumber now. So yeah, he's he's there for me. I
don't know if you did you get into Zach Kleman
at all?
Speaker 2: You have him a number, No, No, I just I want
to say, on Frank, I think that's a great observation
because like if you think, just think of like Marx
and Presty in contrast, like I don't think any of
the decisions were praising them for were hard, right, Like
it was like, oh, great call, Like you're kidding me.
We can get Alex Caruso for Josh Giddy, Like we
don't have to give up a pick, like that's. Yes,
there's so many decisions they made now, like still credit them,
we have them one and two. But the Paul George thing,
that's a hard call like that that and we criticized
it because we thought they got it wrong, and in
fact they did not, because Paul George looks like a
really bad contract right now. And if you had that
on your books, the argument that oh you can just
just trade him for something like it's positive value, Like
I don't think so I don't and it's not getting
better right, like as he continues to age, so like
to get a really hard decision, right, might deserve more
credit in some ways than like yeah, we'll take Isaiah
Hartenstein for this much money of course, like we've got it,
we'll spend it, like you know what I mean? And yeah,
and then doubly so for Marx. It's like you want
to give us what for mcil bridge, you know, like
who's not saying yes to that? So anyway, so I
have climbing Uh. I just think like we've been hard
on the Grizzlies because we've we've several times like gone
through the flow chart of like they turned this into this,
you know, like these picks and these assets into Marcus
Smart congratulations. But like they keep finding rookies, they keep
drafting and developing. They are you know, these end of
guys they have like zire woumbs and workout that's not here,
neither here nor there for now. But like getting Scottie
Pippen junior and putting him on a real contract, finding
Jay Huff, like drafting Jalen Wells, who you had second
and I had, you had third and I had fourth
in my Rookie of Year list, Like they just keep
finding guys. And the fact too that like you remake
the staff without firing the head coach, like that's I mean,
that's very rare one and it's hard to imagine that's
been successful in the past two so kind of up
and down, like from personnel to coaching to just like,
I don't know, figure Jake Laravia is good. I don't know,
let's climbing for that, like getting you know, Santielle Damas
still continues to get a little bit like kind of
up and down. If you're gonna if you're gonna just
credit an organization for getting a lot of stuff right,
I think you probably just have to give the executive
some of that.
Speaker 1: I do think maybe some people still believe in Dayl
Moury's vision, which imagine by the end of the year,
the six Ers just in the conference finals and but
we'll repivot. I think the biggest absence I think James
Jones we considered for sure, like just drafting or getting
on draft night, Ohsa goodar on Ryan Donn and then
the Tias Jones deal, uh the thing the Knicks stuff
with Leon Rose. I will view it. I view it
this way. They overpaid for mckal Bridges, even relative to
how they view themselves and what they thought they needed
to give up for the Nets to get to get
off of mckail Bridges. I would say, ogn nobody's been great.
You don't get to say that he's on a boat
like they got market They signed Og and Nobody to
a market level contract. Yep, that's that's fine. And then
the town's trade. I guess they want it. And would
you call it a home run? It's yeah, but it's
like I viewed as a one net negative move, maybe
one home run with towns and then or combined towns
in OG equal home run and the michale Bridges trade.
It's it might work out, but it's so I viewed
as still their off season has the potential to be
There's gonna be no in in between, is my point.
When we look back right now, it feels like it's
hovering him in between. I think if we jump ahead
three years and look back right down to the Jaylen
Brunton extension, by the way, which getting him to sign
that is a big deal. They either had one of
the best off seasons in franchise history or one of
the worst off seasons in franchise history.
Speaker 2: Right, I think the brunts I was gonna bring up
the bruntson thing, like, I don't know. Yeah, I guess,
I guess you get credit for getting him to do that.
But it felt like Brunson's decision as much as you
know what I mean, Like that was just a rare case.
I guess you got an hour of friendship, right we
Executive of the Year is Villanova friendship except for I
have a.
Speaker 1: Question though, would you rather have all those picks back
and Jalen Brunson not on his extension and then so
no mckel bridges, or would you just rather have a
current ex setup of mckel bridges and then Brunson, who's
a top ten NBA player on that contract?
Speaker 2: So could I could I get all the picks and
Brunson's on a max like.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, it's not that you lose Brunson, it's that
Brunton is not he doesn't sign that extension, He's going
into free agency this year and then we'll re sign
with you.
Speaker 2: Then, man, that sounds pretty good. Actually because Brunson just
should get the most you can pay him basically, But
what are they gonna do with those picks? Get somebody
better than Bridges?
Speaker 1: Probably, I mean, Giannis is about to become available.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what, I think you want those picks back,
don't don't you?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: I know, I know we're talking about in Bridges that
like a low point. He's got to get better.
Speaker 1: But man, Galaxy bring this are the Knicks somehow maybe
they were the ones that suggested he changes jump shot
form above the break. They want a new kids values
that he'll sign the cheap O extension this summer rather
than get the free agency the following summer. Then he'll
come back and make an all NBA team. I would say,
I don't want to anger Knicks fans, and I don't
think they would be wrong to be angry. I probably
would take my picks back, but the jury is still
out on this team. That's fair.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, And we've touched on this, like two
different sections of this, how Cat looks as not the
loan Big is going to go really really long way
towards determining like how the vision of this team ultimately
works out.
Speaker 1: I Honestly though, I do think like a lot hinges
on mckail bridges, because even when you're looking at moves,
they could, okay, play cat next to Robinson, or trade
for a Robert Williams the third, or can you get
another wing defender in there, anyone you acquire or elevate
or like. Now in theory, they're not going to be
a part of your closing lineup, and if they are,
that says something probably went wrong with mcal bridges.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true, man, we did it. We're under two
hours through the meat of this story. You said it
was going to take us three and I said we
could do it, and I forgot to start the timer
on every section and we still did it. So we
did it without being forced to. Kudos to us. Everything
that comes after this, we're at one fifty fifty seven.
It doesn't count because this is just the outro.
Speaker 1: And look and shout out anyone who I don't like
sending this out unedited, but it just made the most
sense because we're putting it out on a Saturday in
the afternoon that the video will be edited. So shout
out if you saw us going through and changing the
format of everything live. That's always just super fun. Grant,
do you have anything else or is it time for
us to Regrettably, I can't believe we did this in
two hours.
Speaker 2: Look at how impressive, very impressive. No, I don't have
anything to add other than as all the usual. Thanks.
If you checked in with us, if you commented, if
you watched us, if if you did any of that,
Please rate, review, subscribe, listen wherever you get your podcasts,
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So if you'd like to get some questions submitted there,
that's the place to do it. Links with that in
you tube and podcast description. I think that's gonna do it.
Thank you, Dan, thank you everybody, as always, shouts Franklin
lo Keen Apologies. Jared Allen
Speaker 1: M