WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.399 The investment environment is really exciting right now. We have 2 00:00:04.280 --> 00:00:07.679 capital markets are open, that's a wonderful thing. We have 3 00:00:07.719 --> 00:00:11.119 some really interesting structural buyers coming into our space. If 4 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:13.800 you think about it. We have a stable coin bill 5 00:00:14.519 --> 00:00:18.280 and that's going to result by our own government's reports, 6 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:21.719 three trillion plus and stable coins are coming into the 7 00:00:21.719 --> 00:00:25.120 crypto ecosystem, right. What does that mean if you have 8 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.440 trillions of dollars coming in that's non yielding. Well, I 9 00:00:29.519 --> 00:00:31.920 personally think it's going to be the token of choice 10 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:34.479 in the developing world. Would you rather have your local currency? 11 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:39.359 Would you rather have dollars? 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I'm your host Tony 32 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:52.799 Edward and we are recording out a Station three in 33 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:56.599 New York's Financial District, and my guest is Chris Perkins, 34 00:01:56.840 --> 00:01:59.760 who is the president of coin Fund. Chris, great to 35 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:00.840 have you, Tony. 36 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:02.680 Amazing to be back on. How are you. 37 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:06.680 I'm doing well. The market is ripping after Jerome Powell's 38 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:09.439 statements this morning. I'm excited. 39 00:02:09.800 --> 00:02:11.479 How can you not be? I was literally in Jackson 40 00:02:11.479 --> 00:02:15.800 Hole yesterday, was spent the week there, amazing time. It 41 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:20.159 was really amazing conversations with some very senior policy makers. 42 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:25.280 I mean, look, from my perspective, everything's changed, Chris. 43 00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:27.919 It's kind of surreal. We were talking before the recording 44 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:29.599 like you almost have to pinch yourself. 45 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:30.360 Like four years. 46 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:34.080 Over the past four years, it was dystoping, it was scary. 47 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:37.639 People are getting lawsuits, and now so many of trad 48 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:39.199 fin institutions are coming into crypto. 49 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:43.439 Yeah. One of my frustrations is that today even people 50 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:46.960 were nervous, right when you know the phone rings and 51 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:48.960 it's the SEC and was like, what did I do wrong? 52 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:52.280 That's not the way it's supposed to be. The way 53 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:54.840 it's supposed to be is that regulators in the private 54 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:58.879 sector work together. Like we're trying to solve like really 55 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:01.639 hard problems. We're trying to position the US as the 56 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:04.360 innovation and the crypto capital of the world. Right, we 57 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:06.879 have issues around security. Maybe we'll talk about maybe some 58 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:09.759 issues around how do we balance that with customer protections, privacy, 59 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:13.400 national security. These are hard problems and the best way 60 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:16.439 to solve them is to sit down with policy makers 61 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:20.159 and talk, right, And that's exactly what I'm seeing now. 62 00:03:20.319 --> 00:03:22.759 But that's normal. That's the way it should be. Right, 63 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:25.840 this should not be exceptional. We're supposed to be engaging 64 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:29.080 and solving problems together, right, And then people are like WHOA. 65 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:31.919 Like the IPO markets, the equity markets, they're open, Like 66 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:35.560 that's the way it should be, right, our public markets, 67 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:37.840 we have the greatest capital markets in the world. They 68 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:40.280 should be open. We shouldn't be as scared and afraid. 69 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:43.560 And so, you know, I feel like we've been gas 70 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:47.360 lit into this feeling that oh my gosh, this is exceptional, 71 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:49.800 not you know, no, this should be the norm. And 72 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:52.840 I just wanted to thank all those people who stepped 73 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:55.240 up to serve. You know, it's not easy to serve, 74 00:03:55.319 --> 00:03:57.680 like it's you know, you leave the private sector and 75 00:03:57.719 --> 00:03:59.840 you lose a lot of flexibility, wear a suit every day. 76 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:02.199 We have some really amazing people that are trying to 77 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:03.919 make things right, and I'm grateful. 78 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:07.319 Yeah, and to your point, like Hester Purse, Paul at Cher, 79 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:11.759 Paul Atkins, and Mark E. Wada as well, did a 80 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:16.079 complete well change the sec completely. We got roundtables, we 81 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:19.480 have transparency who they're meeting with. I mean, to your point, 82 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:20.920 this is how we should have been, but it was 83 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:21.839 completely different. 84 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:24.160 Yeah, Like I saw Atkins a couple of days Ago 85 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:26.839 and chairman Atkins, I should say because I respect the 86 00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:29.519 man immensely and he, uh, you know what did he? 87 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:31.120 What did you start off with? On his panel? I'm 88 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:34.439 gonna make IPOs great again because they should. 89 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:38.439 Be, right, and Chris isn't amazing speaking IPOs. You have 90 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:42.439 all these crypto companies now going public doing IPOs. It's 91 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:46.839 again surreal but also very exciting. I'm just really curious 92 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:50.040 what the future looks like from an innovation standpoint, Which 93 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:52.000 new companies are going to come in, what new technologies 94 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:53.120 are going to build the much more. 95 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:56.279 Yeah, so the IPO markets are open, and that's a 96 00:04:56.319 --> 00:04:59.600 good thing, but I think there's an even bigger thing 97 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:04.040 under the surface that's about to happen right now in 98 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:06.480 the US. Did you know eighty one percent of companies 99 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:09.199 with a one hundred million dollars in revenue they're private, 100 00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:13.639 and so normal people have been locked out of that market, right, 101 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:17.680 And guess what where are the most innovative, exciting, fastest 102 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:19.600 growing companies. Where do you make your money? How do 103 00:05:19.639 --> 00:05:22.000 you really get rich? You invest in those private early 104 00:05:22.040 --> 00:05:25.040 stage companies. But we're not allowing Americans to do it. 105 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:29.319 It's crazy. Eighty one percent right. It's good to hear 106 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:31.319 the chairman. He's saying, listen, it's time for us to 107 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:33.839 unlock these things. And I think the solution here is 108 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:38.120 through what we call Internet capital markets or tokenization. I 109 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:39.759 think they're going to work on a couple of exceptions, 110 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:41.680 like we have a company called Superstate with a program 111 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:44.199 called opening Bell. But really in the United States, there 112 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:46.560 are three ways to take a company public. One is 113 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:48.800 through IPOs, where you go with bankers. We're seeing some 114 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:50.879 of this happen with Circle, right, and this is a 115 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:54.480 good thing because we're making private companies become public via 116 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:55.279 the old fashioned way. 117 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:55.519 Right. 118 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:58.759 We're also seeing a lot of spack activity in verse takeovers. 119 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:00.399 I think we're going to talk about dat here in 120 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:03.680 a second. But the third way to bring a company 121 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:06.959 public is via a direct listing, and that's where you 122 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:09.560 Coinbas did this a couple of years ago, where you 123 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:12.120 take your shares, your private shares, and you directly list 124 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:16.160 them right without those intermediaries. This is where things get 125 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:18.399 very interesting because if you can come up with a 126 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:22.199 way through tokenization to allow people with access to the Internet, 127 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:25.439 you know, the market sets the price in a direct listing. 128 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:28.439 Guess what our markets are pretty robust. If you look 129 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:32.199 at the last administration under Gensler, there were only two 130 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:37.079 tokens that were that we were known commodities. That was 131 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:40.639 really bitcoin and meme coins. Right. And by the way, 132 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:43.000 I talked about the eighty one percent, what's like the 133 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:46.160 one thing that you could have gotten really early stage 134 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:48.560 if you're just a normal person, that was bitcoin, right, 135 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:51.439 and it made a lot of millionaires because people were 136 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:55.120 able to access that market. Okay, but anyway, let's step 137 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:57.480 back and look at meme coins. Meme coins last year 138 00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:00.240 one hundred and forty billion dollar market cap. Do you 139 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:01.759 know what the market do you't know how much money 140 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:06.199 was raised in IPOs last year in twenty four thirty billion? Right? 141 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:09.879 So Trump the Trump token, people hate it, they love 142 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:14.079 it whatever, fifteen billion dollars market cap over thirty six 143 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:17.600 hours on a weekend. So the true power of these 144 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:21.439 blockchains is capital formation because anyone with access to the 145 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:25.839 Internet can buy something. Right. I'm very excited about the 146 00:07:25.879 --> 00:07:28.959 future of direct listings where we're able to take companies 147 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:32.879 using tokenization on chain and make them available to the 148 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.879 masses earlier stage. That's going to be cool. 149 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:40.160 That absolutely makes sense and to your point of it 150 00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:42.800 hasn't been fair, right, You had these accreditation laws and 151 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:45.720 the SEC has talked about possibly rolling those back or 152 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:47.680 do they even need to roll it back if it's 153 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:49.160 going to be in a tokenized form and I can 154 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:50.800 buy two tokens if I want. 155 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:54.360 Yeah, so if you tokenize the security, it's still a security. 156 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:56.759 And so we do have to go and look at like, hey, 157 00:07:57.319 --> 00:07:59.600 what are the principles behind these rules, like why do 158 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:02.079 we not allow certain types of people who don't make 159 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:05.360 enough money to access certain markets? Is that equitable and 160 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:07.839 fair or is it not? And by the world, the 161 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:11.319 world has changed. People have a lot more access to information. 162 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:15.959 They have access to CHET, GPT or LM of choice, right, 163 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:19.279 so people retails a lot smarter these days. And so 164 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:21.240 you know, does it really do these rules make sense? 165 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:21.839 I don't think so. 166 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:25.360 Yeah. And to your point, like as myself who first 167 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:28.560 got into crypto and investing, you know, I didn't know anything. 168 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:31.040 I'm an immigrant kid. My parents don't know. They're just 169 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:34.879 working hard, right, And when I started learning about trading 170 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:37.039 view and how to look at charts and then how 171 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:39.240 do I look at SEC filings? And what is the 172 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:43.240 FED saying? And everything's online. I got more knowledgeable, So 173 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:45.799 why can't I participate? Why do I have to be accredited? 174 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:49.159 Totally agree with that, but yeah, I mean I think 175 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:52.960 the the investment environment is really exciting right now. Right, 176 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:57.120 we have capital markets are open, that's a wonderful thing. 177 00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:00.159 We have some really interesting structural buyers coming in to 178 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:03.000 our space, if you think about it. We have a 179 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:05.879 stable coin bill and that's going to result. By our 180 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:11.120 own government's reports, three trillion plus in stable coins are 181 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:14.679 coming into the crypto ecosystem. Right. What does that mean 182 00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:19.320 if you have trillions of dollars coming in that's non yielding. Well, 183 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:21.639 I personally think it's going to be the token of 184 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:23.879 choice in a developing world. Would you rather have your 185 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:27.120 local currency? Would you rather have dollars? Probably? Greenbacks? Right? 186 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:30.000 And now you can access them for the very first 187 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:32.600 time in a very easy way. But the problem with 188 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:36.399 that is that they are non yielding. They're depreciating assets. 189 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:38.320 So what are people going to do. They're going to 190 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:40.440 go into DeFi, right, and then they're going to go 191 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:42.000 and they're going to find their agents. We have a 192 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.879 company called Giza and they have a really cool agent 193 00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:47.240 called Arma and this is not investment advice, but they 194 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:51.080 can actually go and optimize that yield, right. And so 195 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:53.320 you have this one structural buyer coming in. Those are 196 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:55.519 the stable coin folks, right, and the hop is going 197 00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:58.440 to be DeFi and AI agents to optimize. You have 198 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:00.840 another structural buyer, which are the four one case coming in. 199 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:04.519 Trump made that executive order, so that's new capital coming 200 00:10:04.519 --> 00:10:07.759 into the system. And then you have this third innovation 201 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:09.960 that a lot of people didn't see a coming, and 202 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:13.240 those are the dats, the digital asset treasuries, and so 203 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:18.600 against regulatory risking, against that structural buying, against macro we 204 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:23.600 saw you know what Jpal said today, It's a really 205 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:24.919 interesting time to be in the market. 206 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:29.399 Yeah, it's exciting. Feels like we've crossed the chasm and 207 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:32.000 it's not looking back. This thing is ready to go. 208 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:35.879 You worked at City Bank just last week, I think 209 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:37.519 it was we heard a report at City Bank once 210 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:39.639 to launch your own stable coin, get involved in crypto. 211 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:41.600 What are your thoughts on all these banks now looking 212 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:42.279 to jump in. 213 00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:45.399 It's pretty funny. I've spoken to some very very senior 214 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:49.960 people at the banks at the operating committee level, and 215 00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:51.960 what they'll tell me is pretty similar it's a little 216 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:55.000 bit different per bank, but essentially, hey man, for the 217 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:59.200 last four years, the regulators would come in and say 218 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:01.639 what are you doing in dough and I would say, 219 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:04.240 I'm not doing anything and they would leave me alone. 220 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:06.360 And He's say. Now they come in and they say 221 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:09.320 what are you doing in crypto? And I say and 222 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:11.840 they say, you know, why are you not trying to 223 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:14.159 fix your settlements? Why are you not trying to improve, 224 00:11:14.559 --> 00:11:17.960 you know, your tech systems? And they're like, so effectively, 225 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:20.919 they're really trying to catch up. I think it was 226 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:23.600 pretty amusing. You saw the ABA come out against some 227 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:26.320 of the Genius Bill provisions, so like, wait a second, 228 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:29.039 you can still get interest and as they start learning 229 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:32.200 about that, they're like, uh oh, but look, the banks 230 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:34.240 are smart. There's one thing that continues to hold them 231 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:37.440 back though, and that's those are the regulatory capital rules, 232 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:40.840 the bosal rules, so banks have to hold capital based 233 00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:45.639 on their behaviors, and the the BIS still requires them 234 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:47.679 to hold a lot of capital, so it's still kind 235 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:51.200 of holding them back. So that has to get solved 236 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:54.720 for them to really participate. It's a long story, but 237 00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:56.960 watch the Basal rules and you can go to BIS 238 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:00.960 and they continue to indict, and they hate stable coins 239 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:05.639 and they hate crypto. They're gonna have to either figure 240 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:08.440 it out or be left behind. But that's holding the 241 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:11.720 banks back. But generally speaking, all the banks you know, 242 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:14.240 are now moving. The other thing that they' struggled with 243 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:17.360 over overtime is talent. Right, so when bull markets come, 244 00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:20.320 people as they start learning about the opportunity in the space, 245 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:23.240 like wait a second, I can do go into aving. Wow, 246 00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:27.279 this is so cool, they tend to jump native pretty quick, 247 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:30.200 but you don't see too many native people jumping back, 248 00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:33.240 so they're gonna have to really figure out talent. I 249 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:36.519 know there's a lot of talent challenges across the traditional finance. 250 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:39.919 So I'm curious what the pie looks like when you 251 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:43.639 slice it. Maybe by twenty thirty, right, will banks be 252 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:46.799 offering crypto, custody, trading, and access to all these things. 253 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:50.480 And maybe it's more for the boomers and the generation after, 254 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:52.879 but for the younger folks, maybe they're just doing it in 255 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:54.200 a robbinhood or their apps. 256 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:58.519 Man, it's really hard. I'm a big believer in convergence, 257 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:03.039 and so you know, let's just look at the dats, right, 258 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:06.519 the digitalistic treasuries. So we spent all this time talking 259 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:10.279 about tokenization of real world assets. Right. That's where you 260 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:13.000 take something and you turn it into a token, right, 261 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:15.360 and then once it's a token, it like runs around 262 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:17.919 in crypto land and you know, you can you know 263 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:20.799 how it works there, send them to defile whatever. Now 264 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:22.720 all of a sudden, we have these dats that pop up, 265 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:25.519 and what we're doing is we're taking crypto native tokens 266 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:29.879 and we're turning them into securities. Right. Securities used to 267 00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:32.960 be a death sentence under Gensler. Now it's not. Now 268 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:36.519 it's actually really exciting because as a security you can 269 00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:42.240 navigate all the very scalable enterprise ready infrastructure, prime brokerages, 270 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:47.080 margin lending, all this stuff. Right, And so as we 271 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:50.000 see the world folk going forward, Look, people are asking 272 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.960 me all the time these dats, is it a bubble? 273 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:54.799 Is it this you know? Or is it is it here? 274 00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:58.559 Are they here to stay? My answer is usually like yeah, 275 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:01.399 because look there's a little bit of there's a lot 276 00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:03.759 of hype right now. But at the same time, if 277 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:07.320 you're a major foundation, it makes sense to have that 278 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:10.559 foundation going forward, and also that DAT because now you 279 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:15.000 can avail yourself of all that traditional infrastructure and capital 280 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:19.399 markets that really make our country great, very scalable. Right, So, 281 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:21.799 so how did the banks end up somewhere in between? 282 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:23.679 I mean, they can service a lot of the dats today, 283 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:25.519 it's just plug and play. A lot of the traditional 284 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:28.279 players can enter the dats, and for some folks entering 285 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.559 through the traditional window is going to make sense, you know. 286 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:33.879 But for others, you know who, you know, like my 287 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:35.360 kid who's trying to figure out how to open a 288 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:36.840 bank account, but and then he open to phantom all 289 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:40.279 and goes crazy, like maybe that's more natural for them. 290 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:42.639 But in the end, these worlds are going to converge 291 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:44.960 and it's going to be really really interesting. And by 292 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:46.559 the way, there's gonna be a basis, right, There's gonna 293 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:50.360 be trading opportunities, you know. Can you trade an ETF 294 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:53.279 against a DAT or a future like I think the 295 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:56.720 future is is like one common UI where you have 296 00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:00.519 your equities, you have your tokenized products, you have everything 297 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:03.639 all in one place. They all have slightly different economics 298 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:05.960 and things going on, and you can trade them against 299 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.080 each other with the. 300 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:11.000 Digital acid treasury companies. Are there any risks that you 301 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:15.080 see outside of uh mismanagement that happens in every industry, 302 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:17.679 every company, right, doesn't matter if it's cryptoi lated or not. 303 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:22.519 And related to the bubble conversation, you know, are somebody 304 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:25.200 spokes raising too much debt? I don't have a problem 305 00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:27.559 if a company says we're taking twenty percent of our 306 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:29.320 cash and our balance, you know, and buying some bitcoin 307 00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:32.639 or ether or whatever. But if I go raise billions 308 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:36.240 of dollars to buy that asset, does that open up 309 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:37.279 a new level risk? 310 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:41.559 I think that's come with incredible opportunity and also incredible 311 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:43.639 and not incredible, but they also have risk. Let's let's 312 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:45.399 talk about some of those scenarios. So I talked about 313 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:48.600 the opportunity, you know, having that rapper that allows you 314 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:53.480 to access those capital markets, collateral you know, you know, 315 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:55.600 you can leverage all these things you can do with 316 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:59.159 any other equity. That's the opportunity set, and it's a 317 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:03.559 very scalable opportunities set to access capital markets. What's the risk? 318 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:06.360 The risk is, Like, dude, I was in futures, right, 319 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:08.519 I remember when oil the price of oil went negative 320 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:11.559 on futures, right, Like, weird stuff happens, Bad things happen. 321 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:14.720 The market is the market. And like in my career, 322 00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:16.600 I've always you always end up in the tail one 323 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:19.039 way or the other. And so could you have a 324 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:22.840 negative m NAV which is a multiple to NAV. Yes, 325 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.840 it's happening, It's happened, it will continue to happen. A 326 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:31.080 good management team will be able to navigate those instances, right, 327 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:32.960 And so as you start thinking, and I'm again not 328 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:35.279 investment advice, but if you start thinking about underwriting one 329 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:37.799 of these investments, what do you which would you consider? Well, 330 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:39.799 you got to look at the management team. You got 331 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:42.320 to look at the fundamentals of the underlying token, right, 332 00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:47.120 you have to look at their ability to interface with 333 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:49.320 those Do they have the expertise you know, not only 334 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:52.720 the treasury operation side, you know when to issue equity, 335 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:55.679 when to hit the ATM, when to you know, issue 336 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:58.240 converts or whatever else. They have to have that expertise. 337 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:02.200 They also have to have amazing investor relations. So there's 338 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:05.599 many many elements where could things go wrong. Well, if 339 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:09.119 they don't have you know, sufficient capital put aside to 340 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:11.880 help support the m NAV, you know, should it drop 341 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:15.359 into a negative situation, do they not have the right controls? 342 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.759 You know, is there an issue with you know, security 343 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.960 or slashing. You know, do they have insurance? But as 344 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:24.880 these things mature, you're going to see or do they 345 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:27.480 take too much debt? Right, and then the token crashes. 346 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.559 That's why you have to really understand imagining. Now here's 347 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:34.079 the good thing. These are public securities, so they have 348 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:37.559 like like it or not, some people hate sucks. They 349 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:40.480 have regular you know reporting, you know where you where, 350 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.079 they have disclosures, they have all those things that every 351 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:46.480 equity needs to have. So you know, if you're a 352 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.960 normal person, you can read it or you can load 353 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:51.440 it up into chat GPT and see what it says. 354 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:53.960 But but for sophisticated investors, they're gonna be able to 355 00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:56.920 look at how the company is being run, just like 356 00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:59.160 any other security and this is some of the beautiful 357 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:00.960 this is one of the beautiful things of that rapper. 358 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:04.279 In addition, do you want to also look at if 359 00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:08.000 these companies who have the normal business operation where they're 360 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:11.839 generating revenue as a real business and not just we're 361 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:12.759 just gonna buy crypto. 362 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:16.440 Yeah, I'm so happy that that you made that point. 363 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:18.240 There's a couple of things to look at. Do they 364 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:21.039 have an operating business, does it contribute or not, but 365 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:24.400 even within the asset itself. This is what gets me 366 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:27.400 really excited and us talking to some analysts today about 367 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:30.720 this who now are looking at and researching the equities. 368 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:34.400 Take a take an asset like ethereum. Right, Yes, we've 369 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.599 seen Michael Sailors prove that dats can work, you know, 370 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:40.079 through through various treasury operations and he's been able to 371 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:43.519 drive a really superior MNAV. So good good on him. 372 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:49.799 But bitcoin doesn't natively yield. Ether does. And so one 373 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:51.759 of the things that we built at coin fine, which 374 00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:54.880 we built something called CAESAR, which is the compost ethereum 375 00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:57.599 ether staking rate. It's essentially the risk free rate of 376 00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:01.680 ether ethereum. And so essentially that serves as a beta. 377 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:04.480 Now if you're in ethereum, because that's going to be 378 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:07.279 one of the natural drivers of your m NAV because 379 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:09.640 you have eth and now you have this real yield 380 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:13.400 round three percent or whatever. That's just that's table stakes 381 00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:15.319 because if you took that eth and you staked it, 382 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:19.039 you should make at least this SASER rate. Right now, 383 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:22.079 what we're looking out for how do they outperform that rate? 384 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:26.319 Right And and again the higher yielding asset the higher 385 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:28.920 you can yield, the more it contributes to the m 386 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:33.480 NAV because it's going to generate additional profit, additional yield 387 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:36.279 and profitability over that that that that asset. So this 388 00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:40.319 is where things get really interesting as the sophisticated folks 389 00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:43.000 come in to manage treasury apps not only on the 390 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:46.559 equity issuance, but also on the yield, the yield side 391 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:48.559 of things. Do they know how to use defive, do 392 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.400 they know how to use you know, staking restaking, and 393 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.160 you know, do they deploy insurance? Do they ensure the yield? 394 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:57.279 You know, we you know, we were actually seeing for 395 00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:00.559 the first time not only insurance on slashing but also 396 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:05.039 yield itself. And so as you start entering into this 397 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:08.440 world of yield, there's a lot of opportunity, but there's 398 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:11.160 also risks. Anytime something is yielding there that you know, 399 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:13.880 usually there's some kind of risk associated. So you need 400 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:15.839 to make sure you're able to manage slashing risk, you're 401 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:19.160