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<v Speaker 1>And Ukraine in the market every day.

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<v Speaker 2>Every day happens here on fifty five KR see the

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<v Speaker 2>talk station A six fifty five R see the talk

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<v Speaker 2>station A very happy Friday to pivoting over from broader

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<v Speaker 2>issues of national and global concern. Welcome back to the

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<v Speaker 2>fifty five KRSUE Morning Show. Hamilton County Administrative and presiding

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<v Speaker 2>Judge from the Municipal Court, Judge Josh Berkowitz. It's great

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<v Speaker 2>having you on today, Judge, and congratulations on your victory

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<v Speaker 2>that shouldn't have had to go through the process. We're

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<v Speaker 2>going to talk about that right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, thanks Brian, thanks for having me, good morning.

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<v Speaker 2>And I appreciate you giving me the heads up on

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<v Speaker 2>this with the text the other day. We have a

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<v Speaker 2>problem here with Hamilton County Clerk Court Pavon Peri. He

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<v Speaker 2>decided unilaterally that he was going to pull certain records

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<v Speaker 2>from the online access I suppose, specifically records relating to

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<v Speaker 2>eviction cases that were older than three years. But he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't remove them. I mean, you would still be able

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<v Speaker 2>to go to the Clerk's office in person to see

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<v Speaker 2>these records. Have I got that correctly? The setup for

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<v Speaker 2>this litigation that ensued.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so this was middle of twenty twenty two and

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<v Speaker 1>he took I mean, this is tens of thousands of

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<v Speaker 1>records that he just took off his website without any

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<v Speaker 1>notice or authorization from the court. We actually learned of

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<v Speaker 1>it from a Cincinnati Enquirer article. And if you looked

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<v Speaker 1>at the website when he did this, you would have

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<v Speaker 1>no idea that these records were missing, that they that

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<v Speaker 1>they ever existed. And so, you know, this was a

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<v Speaker 1>big concern for the judges when we learned of it.

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<v Speaker 1>First of all, you know, open records and public access

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<v Speaker 1>to court records is a it's in Ohio's constitution. It's

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<v Speaker 1>a big deal. It's a big responsibility of the court.

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<v Speaker 1>And second, this obviously had a tremendous potential to mislead

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<v Speaker 1>the public. Anybody who looked at that website would have

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<v Speaker 1>no idea that these records weren't there, and so it

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<v Speaker 1>was obviously misleading. And our first response, of course, our

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<v Speaker 1>reaction was to reach out to him to voice these concerns,

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<v Speaker 1>to try to rectify the situation in a kind of

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<v Speaker 1>you know, a reasonable manner. You know, look, this is

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<v Speaker 1>a problem, we think it should be fixed. Here are

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<v Speaker 1>our concerns, and you know, that went on for quite

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<v Speaker 1>a while where we tried to resolve this this situation

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<v Speaker 1>in a in a agreeable manner, and it just it

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<v Speaker 1>didn't happen. It was very clear that he was pretty

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<v Speaker 1>dug in on it. He viewed his office as having

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<v Speaker 1>this authority to unilaterally determine what records should be available

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<v Speaker 1>to the public online and what records shouldn't. And ultimately,

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty twenty three, our court fourteen judges agreed and

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<v Speaker 1>we ordered him to rescind this policy to restore these

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<v Speaker 1>records to public access, and he acknowledged receiving this order.

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<v Speaker 1>He said he was going to confer with his staff

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<v Speaker 1>or counsel or something like that, and he never complied.

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<v Speaker 1>And so in January twenty twenty four, I became this

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<v Speaker 1>position of administrative judge, and I felt like this was

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<v Speaker 1>going in a bad direction. It was going to get expensive.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, none of the judges were picking a fight.

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<v Speaker 1>We did not, We were not looking to to have

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<v Speaker 1>a public display of this conflict. And so I reached

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<v Speaker 1>out to him personally and tried to set up a meeting,

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<v Speaker 1>thinking there's you know, we've got to find a way

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<v Speaker 1>to resolve this thing. And he refused to meet with me.

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<v Speaker 1>He demanded that, or I should say, he wouldn't meet

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<v Speaker 1>with me unless council was present, unless he had an

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<v Speaker 1>attorney present on his behalf. And ordinarily the Hamilton County

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<v Speaker 1>Prosecutor would represent the Clerk of Courts in litigation like

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<v Speaker 1>this or in a civil dispute, right and ordinarily the

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<v Speaker 1>Hamilton County Prosecutor would represent the court in a civil dispute.

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<v Speaker 1>And so obviously the County prosecutor could not represent both parties,

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<v Speaker 1>and so they couldn't represent either party. So what that

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<v Speaker 1>meant was that private council, a taxpayer expense, had to

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<v Speaker 1>be appointed to represent the Clerk, and then they had

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<v Speaker 1>to appoint private council to represent the court. And so

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<v Speaker 1>that's what happened. And ultimately, you know, he never met

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<v Speaker 1>with me. We never it never happened, and he never complied,

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<v Speaker 1>and so we sent him a letter, this was March

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<v Speaker 1>of twenty twenty four and said, look, you haven't complied

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<v Speaker 1>with this valid court order. You've got ten days to

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<v Speaker 1>restore these records or you need to be able to

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<v Speaker 1>show cause why you shouldn't be held in contempt of court.

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<v Speaker 1>Rather than comply with that, he filed this lawsuit, and

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<v Speaker 1>he sued the judges of the municipal court, and earlier

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<v Speaker 1>this week, the High Supreme Court unanimously ruled in our

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<v Speaker 1>favor that he completely overreached. He had no such authority

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<v Speaker 1>to unilaterally determine to remove these records from his website.

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<v Speaker 1>That we were that we were correct.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I guess, the whole idea, the going back to

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<v Speaker 2>him insisting that counsel be president. You asked to sit

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<v Speaker 2>down and meet with him. You didn't really need lawyers

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<v Speaker 2>there to have a civil discourse over the propriety of

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<v Speaker 2>his actions and removing these records, did you.

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<v Speaker 1>I certainly didn't think so. He's an attorney, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>colurk of course of court don't necessarily need to be attorneys,

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<v Speaker 1>but he is. And I really felt like he and

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<v Speaker 1>I could have a discussion and that we could reach

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<v Speaker 1>some uh, some resolution to this situation that did not

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<v Speaker 1>involve litigation in court.

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<v Speaker 2>Right like, for example, pulling out a copy of Ohio's

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<v Speaker 2>Constitution which says these court records must be open to

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<v Speaker 2>the public.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right, I mean, people, you know, open courts are

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<v Speaker 1>part of Ohio's Constitution from its founding, and that's also included,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, not just in the Supreme Court noted this.

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<v Speaker 1>The Court of Appeals that first ruled on this decision

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<v Speaker 1>noted the same thing. That you know, open courts doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>just mean that people have a right to come to court.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course they do. But you know, there's twelve twelve

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<v Speaker 1>million people or so in Ohio, and lord knows how

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<v Speaker 1>many one hundred thousand million cases in courts throughout Ohio.

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<v Speaker 1>So open courts doesn't just mean that you can come

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<v Speaker 1>to court. It means that you have access to court

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<v Speaker 1>records and in the most accessible manner reasonably possible. And

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<v Speaker 1>for the last thirty or forty years in this community,

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<v Speaker 1>clerks of Court have touted their website that is easy,

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<v Speaker 1>it's accessible that the public can use to see what

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<v Speaker 1>happens in court. I mean, it's records are really really important.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's how you know, that's how the public can

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<v Speaker 1>keep tabs on their government. That's how you can determine

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<v Speaker 1>what's going on in your community. That's how you can

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<v Speaker 1>determine whether your elected officials are effective, whether they're efficient,

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<v Speaker 1>whether they're trustworthy stewards of tax money, and so you know,

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<v Speaker 1>records are really important and on the same hand are

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<v Speaker 1>on the other hand, records are an easy target. They're

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<v Speaker 1>a favorite target of politicians in my opinion, who can

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<v Speaker 1>use data and if you let them, they can manipulate

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<v Speaker 1>records to advance just about and if any policy or

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<v Speaker 1>agenda that they'd like.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, and that's what he was trying to do in

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<v Speaker 2>this particular case because apparently, according to the appellate court

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<v Speaker 2>pleatings from the clerk courts, he did this to prevent

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<v Speaker 2>certain members and this is in quote certain members of

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<v Speaker 2>the public being primarily employers and landlords, were potentially relying

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<v Speaker 2>upon court documents and considering fulfilling employment, housing, and other

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<v Speaker 2>potential opportunities to individuals. Well, I mean that's done all

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<v Speaker 2>the time. It's like an actuarial analysis of your record

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<v Speaker 2>and whether what your insurance premium should be rated at

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<v Speaker 2>are you a good risk in terms of renting properties

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<v Speaker 2>or employment. I mean that's vital and critical information for

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<v Speaker 2>the public to have. And the other layer on that

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<v Speaker 2>is just because he removed them from the website didn't

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<v Speaker 2>mean they weren't still available to all these different entities

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<v Speaker 2>to go down and in person request them from the clerk.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem is, as you pointed out, he didn't let

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<v Speaker 2>anybody else know out there in the world who went

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<v Speaker 2>to do a search that the records were not online

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<v Speaker 2>yet they were still available for dates older than three years.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right. And there was a lot of kind of

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<v Speaker 1>moving goalposts there as to what he was trying to accomplish.

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<v Speaker 1>At times it was, you know, I'm trying to help

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<v Speaker 1>people who have prior evictions. They shouldn't be they shouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>face difficulties because they had an eviction older than three years.

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<v Speaker 1>And then in court that kind of evolved to this

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<v Speaker 1>argument that, well, these recor reords lead to misidentification, and

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<v Speaker 1>he argued in the Court of Appeals that you know

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<v Speaker 1>that names on court records could lead the misidentification and

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<v Speaker 1>the denial of housing and or employment based on race

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<v Speaker 1>or religion. And one of the things that the Court

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<v Speaker 1>of Appeals noted and we argued was that he never

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<v Speaker 1>presented any evidence whatsoever to support any of this. In fact,

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<v Speaker 1>he never support He never presented an aggrieved party, a

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<v Speaker 1>litigant that asked for this remedy, nothing of the sort.

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<v Speaker 1>This was all, you know, his policy, his belief that

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<v Speaker 1>this was happening, and you know, really sadly, he seems

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<v Speaker 1>to maintain this to this day that he was in

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<v Speaker 1>the right and that he was justified in doing.

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<v Speaker 2>This in the face of a unanimous Supreme Court in

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<v Speaker 2>the state of Ohio that is of mixed political philosophy.

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<v Speaker 2>Is in backgrounds, that's right. Well, it's an amazing display

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<v Speaker 2>of arrogance, Judge.

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<v Speaker 1>It really is. One of the saddest aspects of it

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<v Speaker 1>is of course, the taxpayers on the hook for the

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<v Speaker 1>whole thing, and so far legal fees in this between

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<v Speaker 1>this in this case amount to more than eighty thousand dollars,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think, you know that's that's a big deal,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's disappointing. You know, even in the statement that

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<v Speaker 1>he that he that his office provided just the other day,

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<v Speaker 1>again he maintains that he continues to double down, that

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<v Speaker 1>he can decide that a certain aspect of the system

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<v Speaker 1>is broken and therefore he can take this action as

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<v Speaker 1>clerk of courts to manipulate records or to conceal records

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<v Speaker 1>from the public. And what he ought to be doing

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<v Speaker 1>right now, in my opinion, is paying the taxpayer back.

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<v Speaker 1>Pay the taxpayer back through the right thing. The taxpayer

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<v Speaker 1>should not be on the hook for what is essentially

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<v Speaker 1>this was a political stunt. Yes, and at great taxpayer expense.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean that's somebody's salary. That's a significant amount of money.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's just disappointing that still there's no recognition that

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<v Speaker 1>this was an error. It continues to double down, continues

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<v Speaker 1>to kind of pretend that he was in the right,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's very unfortunate that is.

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<v Speaker 2>And as the Court of the kils I guess said, clerks,

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<v Speaker 2>only the courts, not the clerks, have the authoritied way

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<v Speaker 2>if when individual right to privacy outweighs the strong presumption

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<v Speaker 2>of public access to court records. Now, there have been

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<v Speaker 2>instances when the courts have denied public access online to

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<v Speaker 2>certain public records. I think like for example, divorce cases.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, there are many instances where courts are making that

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<v Speaker 1>determination whether records should be sealed, whether they should be

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<v Speaker 1>removed from online access. But as the Supreme Court noted

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<v Speaker 1>and the Court of Appeals, that's a judicial determination and

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<v Speaker 1>it's got to be based on evidence. It's got to

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<v Speaker 1>be based on the record, and that happens in a

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<v Speaker 1>variety of circumstances. Child victims for example, juvenile court proceedings

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<v Speaker 1>are often sealed from online access or in other form.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's a judicial process that happens all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's got to be based on evidence. It's got

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<v Speaker 1>to be based on this judicial determination, and it's just

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<v Speaker 1>one of our responsibilities as judges throughout Ohio. And he

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<v Speaker 1>just asserted this authority for himself as a clerk of courts,

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<v Speaker 1>and no nothing supported it whatsoever.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, now, to the extent he comes up with an

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<v Speaker 2>actual justicabal controversy, a specific case where someone who was

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<v Speaker 2>misidentified by virtue of online access to the records or

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<v Speaker 2>someone who claims individual harm that these records are available.

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<v Speaker 2>Could this be re reviewed at a subsequent time to

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<v Speaker 2>have a full determination along the lines what we're talking about, like,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, the juvenile record should not be disclosed to

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<v Speaker 2>the public for privacy reasons or whatever. So is this

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<v Speaker 2>the end of it in terms of a discussion about

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<v Speaker 2>the availability of these records or is this just put

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<v Speaker 2>a nail on the coffin We're just not going down

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<v Speaker 2>that road.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think this puts an end to his assertion

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<v Speaker 1>of this authority, clearly. But people have the right to

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<v Speaker 1>request a stealing of records in a particular case. That

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<v Speaker 1>happens all the time, including in eviction cases. People can

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<v Speaker 1>apply to have information removed from the website or case

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<v Speaker 1>records removed from the website, and our municipal court holds

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<v Speaker 1>these hearings all the time and they are frequently granted.

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<v Speaker 1>This is not this was all a solution in search

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<v Speaker 1>of a problem. Is the reality. We have those hearings

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<v Speaker 1>all the time. Oftentimes such motions are granted without any objection,

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<v Speaker 1>but there's got to be noticed to the parties. There's

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<v Speaker 1>got to be a hearing, there's got to be evidence.

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<v Speaker 1>And what he did was was just a blanket removal

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<v Speaker 1>of thousands of cases worth of records. And again, the

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<v Speaker 1>bigger or a big part of the problem was anybody

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<v Speaker 1>looking at that website for professional reasons or otherwise would

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<v Speaker 1>have no idea that these records weren't there. So when

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<v Speaker 1>he claimed, well, all you have to do is come

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<v Speaker 1>down to the courthouse and look for them, how would

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<v Speaker 1>you know that they were even there to look for?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it sets the process back to the old days

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<v Speaker 2>when that was the only way to search records, and

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<v Speaker 2>certainly we don't live in those times. Anymore and for

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of reasons. Thankfully so, Judge Josh Burkerwit's a

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<v Speaker 2>real pleasure having you on. Congratulations on the victory, even

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<v Speaker 2>though it came at the expense of the Hamilton County taxpayers.

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<v Speaker 2>A fight worth fighting and at least we get to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about this demonstrable arrogance on the part of the

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<v Speaker 2>Clerk of Courts. Thank you, sir for your time today

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<v Speaker 2>and spending time with my listeners and me and talking

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<v Speaker 2>about this extremely important issue.

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<v Speaker 1>Judge Burker Woods, Thanks Brian, I appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 2>My pleasure. A twenty two. Don't go away. We're gonna

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<v Speaker 2>hear for the Cincinni Print and Type Museum. They got

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<v Speaker 2>an event coming up this week. It's a cool place

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<v Speaker 2>and the history of Cincinnati and connection with printing is

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<v Speaker 2>just it's amazing. And again, props for my wife, arm

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry my mom foreseeing the sinceinna print musim and

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<v Speaker 2>tell me all about it. The return of Gary Walton

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<v Speaker 2>coming up next fifty five KRC.