WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster

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<v Speaker 1>movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by Ben Stover,

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<v Speaker 1>individual therapist, Hannah Espinozo marriage and family therapists. We're all

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<v Speaker 1>licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice

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<v Speaker 1>out of Chicago. Even though we are licensed mental health professionals,

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<v Speaker 1>this podcast is purely for entertainment purposes and to fulfill

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<v Speaker 1>our love of dissecting pop culture and all forms.

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<v Speaker 2>Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,

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<v Speaker 2>we aren't your therapist.

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<v Speaker 1>If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find

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<v Speaker 1>a local mental health provider. Merry Christmas and happy holidays everyone.

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<v Speaker 1>For our last episode of twenty twenty five, we were

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<v Speaker 1>talking about a Christmas Carol, Charles Dickens classic. Specifically, though

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<v Speaker 1>we will be discussing map It's Christmas Carol, which in

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<v Speaker 1>my opinion, is the best adaptation of a Christmas Carol.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know what you two think of. What are

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<v Speaker 3>your two? Well?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you guys have different opinions about what's the best

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<v Speaker 1>adaptation of a Christmas Carol.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll get that out of the way.

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<v Speaker 2>Best her favorite's a different discussion. Favorite Muppets exactly best.

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<v Speaker 2>I think George C. Scott did it best. But okay,

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<v Speaker 2>fair best and favorite. This is classic and it's gold.

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<v Speaker 1>This is the only version that I really love and

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<v Speaker 1>I've never watched another version and I never will.

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<v Speaker 3>We watched Scrooge yesterday. Yeah, but that's.

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<v Speaker 1>Different because it's Bill Murray.

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<v Speaker 3>That feels different. It's more of a retelling. Yeah, okay,

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<v Speaker 3>I'll give you that.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, but I think most people know the plot of

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<v Speaker 1>a Christmas Carol, but if you don't, it's about a

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<v Speaker 1>miserly old man named Ebenezer Scrooge who has no friends,

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<v Speaker 1>who is a I don't know, busy this man, what

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<v Speaker 1>will we call him?

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<v Speaker 2>He's a lender?

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<v Speaker 3>A lender?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh okay, Yeah, he's like a loan shark type and

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<v Speaker 1>he's taken a lot of money from people. He doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>give a shit about anybody, He overworks his employees, doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>care about Christmas, and he gets visited by three ghosts

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<v Speaker 1>on Christmas Night to teach him that basically money isn't

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<v Speaker 1>everything and he needs to turn his shit around. If

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<v Speaker 1>he doesn't want to go to hell like his ex

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<v Speaker 1>partner and friend Jacob Marley.

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<v Speaker 2>So in this episode we're going to be covering emotional neglect,

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<v Speaker 2>attachment wounds, and values before we get into treatment and

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<v Speaker 2>final thoughts.

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<v Speaker 1>Just like always so, Ebeneezer is a classic character, even

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<v Speaker 1>being called like a scrooge or saying bahumbug, and he

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<v Speaker 1>is sort of a parody of a guy that is

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<v Speaker 1>a miser. I mean that's like the classic word right

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<v Speaker 1>for him is someone who is just not just rich,

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<v Speaker 1>but super tight with their money.

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<v Speaker 3>He won't turn the heat on in.

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<v Speaker 1>His place, but he also went in the lights on

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<v Speaker 1>or used something like he was doing stuff in the dark.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he doesn't care about it.

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<v Speaker 2>He lives at Marley's place. Oh yeah, he doesn't even

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<v Speaker 2>have his own house anymore. He lives in his dead

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<v Speaker 2>partner's house so he doesn't have to pay for it.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, damn, that's worse than I thought.

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<v Speaker 2>And still won't use heat or really barely uses his

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<v Speaker 2>chamber stick.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh God, would Kurda define that for the class?

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<v Speaker 2>A chamber stick a candle with a little brass ring

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<v Speaker 2>as a holder.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I thought you were referring to something associated with

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<v Speaker 1>a chamber pot. No, like something you use maybe like

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<v Speaker 1>a stick to break up your poop.

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<v Speaker 2>No, a chamberstick is a candle holder, you know, because

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<v Speaker 2>they used candles to keep fighting. Familiar candlestick or candle

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<v Speaker 2>chamber stick collection.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh fancy.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's been forefront of my mind. Also watching The

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<v Speaker 2>Frozen a lot, and they use them in there too.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, gotcha, gotcha didn't realize.

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<v Speaker 2>Which is more or less set in the same time period,

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<v Speaker 2>so makes sense.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>So he is a man who pinches pennies to the max,

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<v Speaker 1>like he even though he has a ton of money,

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<v Speaker 1>he is choosing to live as if he almost has none,

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<v Speaker 1>and he treats money as like a very scarce commodity.

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<v Speaker 1>He had no generosity in his spirit, like he wants

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<v Speaker 1>his Bob Cratchett, his like secondhand man to work on Christmas.

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<v Speaker 1>He doesn't want to give money to the orphans, the

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<v Speaker 1>people collecting money for orphans. He just doesn't seem to

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<v Speaker 1>care about anyone else and seems to value money over everything.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's the guy we meet at the beginning of

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<v Speaker 1>the story. When I think about Ebenezer, also think about

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<v Speaker 1>him as just like hoarding, like he's just hoarding all

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<v Speaker 1>of his money and hoarding all of his resources and

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<v Speaker 1>just keeping them really tight to him. He won't he

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<v Speaker 1>won't spend money in anything or anyone because he just

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<v Speaker 1>has to have all of it to.

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<v Speaker 2>Himself, and he won't even enjoy it.

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<v Speaker 3>No, he doesn't enjoy it. He seems.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I feel like miser literally means a miserable fuck.

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<v Speaker 3>Like he's a miserable fuck. Yeah, he's miserable.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's pretty much exactly means. And it's very clear

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<v Speaker 2>that Ebenezer is the now classic definition of this miserable

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<v Speaker 2>old person who humbug humbug doesn't like anyone or anything.

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<v Speaker 2>But really that gruph exterior is just something he's locked

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<v Speaker 2>into to keep other people locked out and to keep

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<v Speaker 2>himself locked in. It does not reflect who he truly is,

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<v Speaker 2>and it shows pretty quick into the story that he's

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<v Speaker 2>not actually got such a frozen heart as he likes

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<v Speaker 2>to portray.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, he's definitely some one that is acting as

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<v Speaker 1>if this is also the life that they want. And

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<v Speaker 1>what I mean by that is he does have this

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<v Speaker 1>very gregarious, kind seeming nephew who wants to involve him,

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<v Speaker 1>wants to kind of get him out, Like you can

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<v Speaker 1>see moments where, even like with Bob Kraujet, like moments

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<v Speaker 1>where it seems like the community would take him in,

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<v Speaker 1>like would open themselves up to him, but he has

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<v Speaker 1>gotten so deep into what you're bringing up in like

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<v Speaker 1>this protective persona that he is constantly rejecting and pushing away, and.

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<v Speaker 3>In my opinion, well and also something.

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<v Speaker 1>People do do which is over identifying with what keeps them,

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<v Speaker 1>what they think keeps them safe, like I like being

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<v Speaker 1>by myself. I don't even care about Christmas. Overdoing it

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<v Speaker 1>with this part of their personality.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a part. I mean, I think people are more

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<v Speaker 2>or less to understand. Yeah, what a part is, We've

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<v Speaker 2>described it pretty well. I mean I think this isn't

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<v Speaker 2>a component of his personality. He's developed as a defense

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<v Speaker 2>to keep himself as painfree as possible.

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<v Speaker 1>And we see right away because obviously because we watch

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<v Speaker 1>the Muppets movie. Though I'm sure we'll reference other parts

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<v Speaker 1>of the story from other adaptations because it's such a big, well,

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<v Speaker 1>it's such a ubiquitous story that everybody seems to know,

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<v Speaker 1>similar to when we talk about the Grinch.

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<v Speaker 2>And conveniently, because of Hollywood, money. It's in the public

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<v Speaker 2>domain now. Oh, so they don't have to pay royalty fees.

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<v Speaker 3>So I could make my own version of Christmas Carol.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty sure you could.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow. I mean I won't, but it's nice to know.

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<v Speaker 3>But I could.

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<v Speaker 1>But we see right away in this version of the

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<v Speaker 1>story when the ghosts of Christmas Past comes, which spooks me,

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<v Speaker 1>the gross of Christmas past scary in this version of

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<v Speaker 1>the story.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, that puppet is creepy, ooky, spooky.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't like it. Definitely haunted me as a child,

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<v Speaker 1>very uncomfortable. Wow, really, because I feel like the first

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<v Speaker 1>ghost is like, well, whatever ghost because of the little

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<v Speaker 1>kid head.

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<v Speaker 3>No, it's like it doesn't exist in the real world.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, which I guess is the point.

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<v Speaker 2>It looks very ethereal.

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<v Speaker 3>Creeps Oh, I see.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, because it looks ethereal, or because the way the

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<v Speaker 2>face moves. Because the way the face moves is creepy.

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<v Speaker 2>This puppet is a little I really both.

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<v Speaker 1>This is definitely a feeling that comes from my childhood,

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<v Speaker 1>when I was probably watching it and being like what,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't like it, Like, I couldn't contextualize it. It

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<v Speaker 1>just gave me the weirds and so I still have

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<v Speaker 1>that feeling when I see it. But this ghost to

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<v Speaker 1>show Ebenezer right away. Like the first image we get

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<v Speaker 1>of him as a kid is being at boarding school,

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<v Speaker 1>I assume, and he's there at Christmas time. It seems

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<v Speaker 1>like most of the other kids, if not all the

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<v Speaker 1>other kids have gone home for holiday break, and he's

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<v Speaker 1>sitting by himself in the classroom doing work, doing school work.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's the first time we see a part appear

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<v Speaker 2>in this movie. Because Scrooge is still accessing that memory

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<v Speaker 2>and locking into like, well, it's quieter and it gives

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<v Speaker 2>you the opportunity to do more work. He will not

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<v Speaker 2>admit to himself still that that Mettmory pained him, but

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<v Speaker 2>the veil cracks not long after that, and he's like,

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<v Speaker 2>please don't show him anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, when he said, it's the best, it's a

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<v Speaker 1>good opportunity to get work done because he's by himself,

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<v Speaker 1>And I was like, yikes, you can very much hear

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<v Speaker 1>how that's a story he started telling himself around that

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<v Speaker 1>time to deal with the situation, because you're right, like

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<v Speaker 1>this the sad circumstance, which is that's horrible.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, when we talk about.

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<v Speaker 1>An idea of emotional neglect, like leaving your kid at

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<v Speaker 1>the school over the holidays, choosing to do that.

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<v Speaker 3>We don't know why.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, this movie, this version doesn't give us a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of details about his backstory.

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<v Speaker 2>This version sure doesn't.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but we're to assume that he, Yeah, he was

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<v Speaker 1>just like a really lonely kid who had to spend

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<v Speaker 1>time by himself. And instead of acknowledging the truth of that,

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<v Speaker 1>he's trying to, yeah, make it into something else.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I was using it to retell his story and

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<v Speaker 2>use that as the reason why he was successful. All

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<v Speaker 2>these other people went home, and I learned how to focus,

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<v Speaker 2>and I learned how to ignore frivolous human interactions and

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<v Speaker 2>connections and just focus on money and facts and learning,

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<v Speaker 2>which very clearly becomes untrue. And we see is untrue,

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<v Speaker 2>because he lights right up when we start seeing other

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<v Speaker 2>parts of his story. But I won't skip ahead just yet.

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<v Speaker 1>No, And I think you're naming there is something we

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<v Speaker 1>see now, like in real life when people talk about

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<v Speaker 1>their stories, Like when I hear successful people talk about

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<v Speaker 1>their childhoods and stuff, and I can hear what we're

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<v Speaker 1>talking about, like them doing that too. Which is, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it was really good for me that my parents did

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<v Speaker 1>this to me or that to me, because it taught

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<v Speaker 1>me to be ruthless or to really work hard. The

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<v Speaker 1>way that we try to make meaning out of bad

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<v Speaker 1>stuff that happens to us, which isn't on its face

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<v Speaker 1>the worst thing to do, obviously, like there is something

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<v Speaker 1>there to putting meaning into.

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<v Speaker 3>Hardships we've gone through.

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<v Speaker 1>But the way that we're talking about it is where

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<v Speaker 1>you go too far in the other direction and you

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<v Speaker 1>over do it and you get really attached you and

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<v Speaker 1>you almost like moralize the circumstance you were in, like

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<v Speaker 1>it was good for me, and so it was good

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<v Speaker 1>that I went through that because it allows it to

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<v Speaker 1>make it into something virtuous versus just something painful.

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<v Speaker 2>Which is exactly what parts do. We'll start creating a

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<v Speaker 2>version of the story that separates the version we allow

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<v Speaker 2>to exist, or the version that needs to exist, from

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<v Speaker 2>the guey soft core underneath that represents all of us

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<v Speaker 2>where we can get hurt and do and in his

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<v Speaker 2>case did get hurt, get very got very hurt, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, they make the point of showing us it's

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<v Speaker 2>weird by having the other kids present in that story

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<v Speaker 2>asking him you're not going home. He never goes home.

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<v Speaker 3>He always stays.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think one of them more or less is like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>he's getting left. And other versions of the story go

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<v Speaker 2>through the interactions between him and his sister who also

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<v Speaker 2>goes to I believe goes to the school, or the

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<v Speaker 2>sister talks his father into letting him come home for Christmas,

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<v Speaker 2>not this one and not several of them, but eventually

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<v Speaker 2>she talks the dad into letting him come home, and

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<v Speaker 2>he's very very attached to her, but not to his

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<v Speaker 2>parents and his sisters. The mother of said nephew you

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned earlier, which is why that nephew is still connected

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<v Speaker 2>to him.

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<v Speaker 1>Also maybe why that nephew is such a happy person.

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<v Speaker 1>If his mom had a different experience growing up than

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<v Speaker 1>Ebenezer dead.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, his sister would have gotten love and connection and

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<v Speaker 2>seen as valuable, which would kind of build into the

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<v Speaker 2>attachment wounds. If we don't have anything else to say,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm emotional neglect at this moment.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the only thing I want to say about

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<v Speaker 1>this part of Ebenezer's experience is that when you have

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<v Speaker 1>something that happens to you repeatedly, over and over and

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<v Speaker 1>over and over again. That story that you're telling yourself

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<v Speaker 1>only gets stronger and only and feels like truth instead

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<v Speaker 1>of a part of a story that you were experiencing.

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<v Speaker 1>So because this isn't like he got left one Christmas,

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<v Speaker 1>he got left every Christmas after he went to boarding school.

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<v Speaker 1>And having experiences like that also makes it really hard

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<v Speaker 1>for a person to hold hope that things will be

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<v Speaker 1>different or that things can be different, because well, look

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<v Speaker 1>what happened over the last I don't know, we want

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<v Speaker 1>to say maybe decade roughly, probably because he was at

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<v Speaker 1>least he was maybe like five or six when he

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<v Speaker 1>went in probably and I'm guessing is probably somewhere around

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen when he graduates. When he graduates, does that seem accurate?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I would say I think.

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<v Speaker 2>Totally a bit younger at this point in time.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, I think in Britain, because I watch a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of British shows, I think the age that they get

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<v Speaker 1>sent to boarding school Nowish is like eightish.

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<v Speaker 3>But if his family were.

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<v Speaker 1>Just not wanting to deal with him, which it sounds like,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure, they sent him to boarding school as soon

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<v Speaker 1>as you literally could, so I wouldn't be surprised if

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<v Speaker 1>he was going to boarding school at five sex, even

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<v Speaker 1>though I don't think.

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<v Speaker 2>That's common, and it's clear he's formed this idea, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the ghost of Christmas Past walks us through

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<v Speaker 2>all of these various points in time where we see

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<v Speaker 2>the foundation of emotional neglect that he sees the world

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<v Speaker 2>through repeat itself. There's moments where you see young Ebenezer

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<v Speaker 2>connecting to people and engaging with people, but you also

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<v Speaker 2>simultaneously hear him praise the teacher that taught him the

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<v Speaker 2>most important lessons he learned, which were to kind of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, focus and focus on finance and that to

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<v Speaker 2>lean into what you're good at.

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<v Speaker 1>And he also which I've caught for the maybe the

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<v Speaker 1>first time ever seen this movie, like I don't know

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00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:48.279
<v Speaker 1>two thousand times, probably I know all the dialogue, which

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00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:50.320
<v Speaker 1>I practiced today because I was like, do you really

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00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:53.279
<v Speaker 1>know of the dialogue? I know all of it. Is

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<v Speaker 1>that when the right at the end of the school

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<v Speaker 1>scene when Ebenezer is the oldest going to see him

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<v Speaker 1>at the school and the teacher tells him don't tip

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<v Speaker 1>the driver. So also I think he's also getting shitty information,

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00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:15.519
<v Speaker 1>like shitty info from these men that he puts on

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00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.759
<v Speaker 1>a pedestal, right, because we also know that Jacob and

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00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:21.000
<v Speaker 1>what is the other brother's.

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00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:22.320
<v Speaker 2>Name in this one.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there's two of them.

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<v Speaker 2>There are two of them, but that's only because they

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00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:26.879
<v Speaker 2>put the two critics in it.

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00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:28.879
<v Speaker 1>There's oh yeah, that's what be surprised of. Their names

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00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:30.279
<v Speaker 1>are Jacob and Morley Marley.

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00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:32.519
<v Speaker 2>No, it's like Jacob and Eric or something.

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00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:35.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, okay, then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

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00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:39.919
<v Speaker 1>But also that also shows like when you're taught lessons

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00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:42.480
<v Speaker 1>by people, and you're only taught lessons by one people,

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00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:46.799
<v Speaker 1>one person, versus having like a mother and a father

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00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:49.000
<v Speaker 1>and aunts and uncles and all of that kind of shit,

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00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:52.120
<v Speaker 1>Like he only has this one teacher and then these

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00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:54.840
<v Speaker 1>other two men that he idolizes because they're so rich.

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<v Speaker 3>So like he also is.

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<v Speaker 1>Getting a lot of impact from the outside world telling

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<v Speaker 1>him that money is the most important thing. I mean, yeah,

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00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:07.079
<v Speaker 1>if you want to talk about attachment, we attach to

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00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:10.839
<v Speaker 1>whatever we can as we're growing up. So if he's

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00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:15.440
<v Speaker 1>being kept at school, then his only relationships with adults

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00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:21.440
<v Speaker 1>at least are with teachers, and so then the version

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00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:24.079
<v Speaker 1>of him that's like, well, I want to have value,

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00:17:24.200 --> 00:17:28.279
<v Speaker 1>I want to please an authority figure of some sort,

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<v Speaker 1>instead of it being like through my parents, I'm just

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00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:35.279
<v Speaker 1>gonna really please my professors and do really well at

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00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:38.440
<v Speaker 1>school and listen to everything they say. And yet, because

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00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:40.839
<v Speaker 1>we still have to get like our values and our

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00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:44.720
<v Speaker 1>social skills and our life lessons. And unfortunately he's getting

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00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:48.960
<v Speaker 1>them from these adults that are only or these muppets

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<v Speaker 1>that are.

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00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:52.640
<v Speaker 3>Only he's an eagle, Sam Diego.

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00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:55.759
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that are only focusing on one part of his life,

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00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:00.799
<v Speaker 1>which is the education part, and then for the business part.

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00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:03.839
<v Speaker 1>And so yeah, he's getting this message almost like religious

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00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:08.480
<v Speaker 1>in nature from Sam the Eagle of you know, business

332
00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:10.920
<v Speaker 1>is powerful, it's good that you're doing this, and yet

333
00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:14.119
<v Speaker 1>and be a miser, pinch your pennies as much as

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00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:14.400
<v Speaker 1>you can.

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00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:16.799
<v Speaker 3>So those are like the life lessons he's left with.

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00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:22.960
<v Speaker 1>Because it feels like even when he meets Fuzzy Wig, right,

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00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:26.559
<v Speaker 1>which we see in all the versions that I've the

338
00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:29.200
<v Speaker 1>other versions that I've seen all have he's kind of

339
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:34.680
<v Speaker 1>like a pushover businessman. He's kind of really really really lax,

340
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:38.000
<v Speaker 1>really chill, and you can tell that Ebenezer feels like

341
00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:41.920
<v Speaker 1>he's kind of silly as compared to the other people

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00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:44.720
<v Speaker 1>that I think he's held in esteem, which I think

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00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:46.920
<v Speaker 1>makes sense for him to feel that way based on

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00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:51.319
<v Speaker 1>the seriousness with which business is talked about.

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00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:55.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he calls him like, what a what a soft

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00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:59.240
<v Speaker 2>feather of a man he was or something. In this version,

347
00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:05.960
<v Speaker 2>he always Fezziwig has always shown even though Scrooge has

348
00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:10.200
<v Speaker 2>great fondness of him, and the memories really start to

349
00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:14.839
<v Speaker 2>light up. There's Wiggs and we always had this Christmas party.

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<v Speaker 2>You can see he clearly, you know, had such fondness

351
00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:26.839
<v Speaker 2>for this, but yet it was a gentler kinder man. Interesting,

352
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:31.160
<v Speaker 2>that's who you attach, you because we can't help but

353
00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:34.920
<v Speaker 2>attach and want to please somebody that's a parental figure.

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00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:39.200
<v Speaker 2>But we will stop trying to get that approval from

355
00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:42.200
<v Speaker 2>people who won't give it. But that doesn't mean we'll

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00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:43.079
<v Speaker 2>stop trying to get it.

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00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:48.799
<v Speaker 1>Well. The inclusion of fazzi Wig or Fezziwig as a

358
00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:52.240
<v Speaker 1>character in a Christmas story is an interesting one in

359
00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:56.160
<v Speaker 1>that his first seems like his first substantial job out

360
00:19:56.200 --> 00:20:00.480
<v Speaker 1>of school is with someone that is so contrary to

361
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:05.960
<v Speaker 1>the values that he was raised in at school, and

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00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:09.799
<v Speaker 1>that it doesn't have an impact on him the way

363
00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:12.160
<v Speaker 1>that you would hope it would, you know, and like,

364
00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:18.559
<v Speaker 1>you're right that instead of him seeing the contrasting positives

365
00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:23.400
<v Speaker 1>of Fezziwig's lifestyle, he instead is still trying to like

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00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:27.640
<v Speaker 1>jam it into his value system. Like even as he's

367
00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:30.559
<v Speaker 1>walking up in that scene and he's like, this party

368
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:33.079
<v Speaker 1>is really expensive, and fezzy Wig was like, what the

369
00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:33.839
<v Speaker 1>fuck's your problem?

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<v Speaker 3>Did like, it's first mess.

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00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:40.319
<v Speaker 1>We're gonna be generous, have fun, drink, dance, who cares.

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00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:44.759
<v Speaker 1>And you can kind of see how for Ebenezer it is.

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<v Speaker 3>Not.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just not how he views the world, which I

375
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<v Speaker 1>think just goes to show more of that how much

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00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:55.039
<v Speaker 1>he values this way of thinking, in this way of being,

377
00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:58.000
<v Speaker 1>and it is like he met someone who's like an

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00:20:58.119 --> 00:21:01.960
<v Speaker 1>extremely different religion and he can't square it, and so

379
00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:05.599
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't really go into him. Like I think now

380
00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:08.519
<v Speaker 1>at is older, he can view it as the memory

381
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:14.440
<v Speaker 1>with more perspective, but in the moment he can't reconcile

382
00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:18.559
<v Speaker 1>how different this lifestyle is than the lifestyle he's been

383
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:21.119
<v Speaker 1>raised to believe to be true.

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00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:24.680
<v Speaker 2>And this movie kind of glossed it over because it's

385
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:26.640
<v Speaker 2>a kid's movie. But usually that Fezywig scene is a

386
00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:29.880
<v Speaker 2>little bit longer in different versions of this, So that's

387
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:34.559
<v Speaker 2>one of the longer scenes. And whyat songer is because

388
00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:40.480
<v Speaker 2>we start seeing the contrasting present Scrooge looking back on

389
00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:43.480
<v Speaker 2>it with kind of old man eyes versus the younger

390
00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:49.519
<v Speaker 2>Scrooge who can't quite release himself and is really starting

391
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:53.680
<v Speaker 2>to develop this more wooden version of himself before Bell

392
00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:56.559
<v Speaker 2>brings it out of him. And that's the thing that

393
00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:59.279
<v Speaker 2>kind of draws him out. His friends eventually can get

394
00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:02.839
<v Speaker 2>it out of him. You see as Scrooge ages as

395
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.279
<v Speaker 2>we get into each different flashback, that that leaves him

396
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:09.359
<v Speaker 2>just a little bit more each time.

397
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:15.480
<v Speaker 1>And I think it's it's a really interesting story of

398
00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:21.400
<v Speaker 1>how you can have these moments of turning it around.

399
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:25.319
<v Speaker 1>And it's not as easy as maybe we want to

400
00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:28.400
<v Speaker 1>believe it is as easy as like having one good

401
00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:30.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean it can be. You know, one person can

402
00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:34.440
<v Speaker 1>enter your life and change it radically. And I think

403
00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:38.519
<v Speaker 1>what we're seeing with Ebenezer and this is maybe more

404
00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:40.119
<v Speaker 1>going into the attachment wounds.

405
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:41.960
<v Speaker 3>Part of it is.

406
00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:45.680
<v Speaker 1>When you have gone through the emotional glect he's gone

407
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:50.559
<v Speaker 1>through growing up. Even though he's trying to emotionally remove

408
00:22:50.599 --> 00:22:54.079
<v Speaker 1>himself from that, there's still that imprint of it, right,

409
00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:57.359
<v Speaker 1>And I think for him what that looks like is

410
00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:00.319
<v Speaker 1>I don't even know if he could let someone and well,

411
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:03.720
<v Speaker 1>I guess he can't, like Fezziwig or Bell actually get

412
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:05.680
<v Speaker 1>close to him. Like it even makes me wonder what

413
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:08.480
<v Speaker 1>the Bell thing, how much of it is I can't

414
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:10.519
<v Speaker 1>buy a house, which I think it's a big part

415
00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:12.759
<v Speaker 1>of it. And then it also makes me curious if

416
00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:17.759
<v Speaker 1>that's also a good excuse to keep her distant from him,

417
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:19.400
<v Speaker 1>Like I wonder if there's a part of him that

418
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.960
<v Speaker 1>does struggle with accepting. I'm sure this is true, accepting

419
00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:31.160
<v Speaker 1>that kind of love, accepting such like positive, optimistic, you know,

420
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:36.839
<v Speaker 1>comfort love attention from both of those people would be

421
00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:42.640
<v Speaker 1>really uncomfortable for someone like Scrooge, even though you would

422
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:44.039
<v Speaker 1>think it would do the opposite.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's take a break here and we'll be back in

424
00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:52.079
<v Speaker 2>a few so. Attachment wounds is a concept that gets

425
00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:56.240
<v Speaker 2>talked about amongst therapists a whole lot and definitely has

426
00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:00.480
<v Speaker 2>been something that Attachment trauma has been a folk of

427
00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:03.680
<v Speaker 2>quite a few trainings that I've been taking over the

428
00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:06.519
<v Speaker 2>past few years, and has been one of the things

429
00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:11.200
<v Speaker 2>that's more entering the zeitgeist of our professional but I

430
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:15.680
<v Speaker 2>don't know if it's transcending into the social zitegeist as

431
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:18.640
<v Speaker 2>general of attachmounds. I know that we've been trying to

432
00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:20.559
<v Speaker 2>understand that everyone's a narcissist, but no.

433
00:24:20.599 --> 00:24:23.119
<v Speaker 1>The girls on the internet, and by the girls, I

434
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:26.279
<v Speaker 1>mean people in general love to talk about avoidant attachment,

435
00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:30.720
<v Speaker 1>anxious attachment. It's become it has become very.

436
00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:32.279
<v Speaker 2>Buzzy attachment styles.

437
00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:36.680
<v Speaker 1>Attachment styles even use the word attachment. So even us

438
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:39.240
<v Speaker 1>talking about attachment wounds, we probably need to be very

439
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:42.480
<v Speaker 1>clear about what we mean when we say that.

440
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:47.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because attachment wounds can help define what attachment style is.

441
00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:50.920
<v Speaker 2>But I've seen many videos of everybody trying to understand

442
00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:53.200
<v Speaker 2>what everybody's attachment style is and what that means, and

443
00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:58.119
<v Speaker 2>it's become the next version of the Myers Briggs that

444
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:03.000
<v Speaker 2>drives me fucking nuts. But what attachment wounds are are

445
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:05.960
<v Speaker 2>things that happen to us over the course of our

446
00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:11.240
<v Speaker 2>life that make us feel like we've gotten punished for

447
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:14.799
<v Speaker 2>showing the vulnerable side of ourself to someone else, and

448
00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:20.400
<v Speaker 2>that can impact how readily, how willingly, how quickly, and

449
00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:23.240
<v Speaker 2>how firmly we will attach to someone else. And as

450
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:27.599
<v Speaker 2>you can see from good old Ebenezer here, if you

451
00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:32.359
<v Speaker 2>continually show someone that everything but them has no value,

452
00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:36.519
<v Speaker 2>this attachment wound will work both ways. Is that one

453
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:40.240
<v Speaker 2>way is that they will show a great difficulty in

454
00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:42.359
<v Speaker 2>connecting to other people because they will have a lot

455
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:47.160
<v Speaker 2>of trust issues. But also they will attach quite firmly

456
00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:53.359
<v Speaker 2>to something else. An idea concept e Scurage. His attachment

457
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:57.039
<v Speaker 2>is not to people at all, but to success in business,

458
00:25:58.119 --> 00:26:03.799
<v Speaker 2>being the smartest, richest guy. That is all he cares about.

459
00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:08.119
<v Speaker 2>Other people's things are none of his concern. They're humbug

460
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:14.440
<v Speaker 2>and particularly Christmas. Scrooge doesn't hate everyone and everything else.

461
00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:18.319
<v Speaker 2>He especially hates Christmas because while he watches everyone else

462
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:22.519
<v Speaker 2>attach and feel warm and comfortable, he realizes even more

463
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:27.000
<v Speaker 2>so how alone and unwanted he is. So he struggles

464
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.559
<v Speaker 2>with attachment wounds. So when we look at an attachment wound,

465
00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:33.839
<v Speaker 2>it's an understanding that those happen at specific moments. It

466
00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:36.480
<v Speaker 2>can be a breakup, it can be trying to appeal

467
00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:39.599
<v Speaker 2>for the love of a parent. It can be little things.

468
00:26:39.720 --> 00:26:41.480
<v Speaker 2>It can be, like Hannah said, loose little things that

469
00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:46.480
<v Speaker 2>happen over and over and over again, where you're appealing

470
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:48.119
<v Speaker 2>for a parent to care about you when you fall

471
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:52.359
<v Speaker 2>and they don't even look at you. Or your spouse

472
00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:55.279
<v Speaker 2>or partner is looking for someone to care that they

473
00:26:55.319 --> 00:26:57.200
<v Speaker 2>at a hard day and you can't pull yourself out

474
00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:01.000
<v Speaker 2>of the TV or your phone. Eventually they start seeking

475
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:06.680
<v Speaker 2>that connection from somewhere or someone else. Understanding these wounds

476
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:11.480
<v Speaker 2>happen all the time in these little moments, and they

477
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:15.319
<v Speaker 2>build and sometimes they're really big ones. But it's through

478
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:20.160
<v Speaker 2>these we can through the balance of these wounds. And

479
00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:23.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what the opposite word I would want

480
00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:26.519
<v Speaker 2>to say is of an attachment wound, but the positive

481
00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:27.799
<v Speaker 2>attachment moments we have.

482
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:31.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I think a Gottmann term could even

483
00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:35.319
<v Speaker 1>be like bits of connection, like moments in which connection

484
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:38.920
<v Speaker 1>is reciprocated and rewarded.

485
00:27:38.839 --> 00:27:42.160
<v Speaker 2>Right, and it forms a stronger bond. The things we

486
00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:44.759
<v Speaker 2>get a stronger bond to, we will start appealing to more.

487
00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:48.519
<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately for Scrooge, for him that was money and business success,

488
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:52.759
<v Speaker 2>but understanding that attachment style is formed out of the

489
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:54.799
<v Speaker 2>interaction of both of these. Not just like my mommy

490
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:56.720
<v Speaker 2>loved me. No, it's much more than that.

491
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:03.519
<v Speaker 1>And I think he's an interesting case of because he

492
00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:06.880
<v Speaker 1>would be someone where I could see people arguing, even him,

493
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:10.519
<v Speaker 1>arguing that that doesn't exist for him because he maybe

494
00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:12.279
<v Speaker 1>he got sent to a nice school and he always

495
00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:17.720
<v Speaker 1>had his needs met, his literal needs met. And I

496
00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:23.079
<v Speaker 1>think that can also be what keeps people from recognizing

497
00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:26.200
<v Speaker 1>something like this within themselves, even especially if it's connected

498
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:29.640
<v Speaker 1>to their childhood or their relationship to their parents, is

499
00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:31.920
<v Speaker 1>that it's just confusing to be like, well, I did

500
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:37.160
<v Speaker 1>get everything I needed technically, so I can't have a

501
00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:40.480
<v Speaker 1>problem like this, Or I wasn't abused, so I shouldn't

502
00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:43.400
<v Speaker 1>be having an issue like this, And so it's good

503
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:48.799
<v Speaker 1>to recognize that it can be more nuanced than that. Yeah,

504
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:53.799
<v Speaker 1>exactly exactly, because it matters. It matters how it makes

505
00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:57.200
<v Speaker 1>you feel, It matters how the other person responds, It

506
00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:03.160
<v Speaker 1>matters how we perceive the interaction going. Like I think

507
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:06.519
<v Speaker 1>we can see Ebenezer, like we already kind of talked

508
00:29:06.519 --> 00:29:10.440
<v Speaker 1>about him kind of having to shift his reality to

509
00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:13.920
<v Speaker 1>make it make sense for himself. Right, he has to

510
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:16.920
<v Speaker 1>talk about it in this really specific way of no,

511
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:18.640
<v Speaker 1>like it was fine, it wasn't a big deal.

512
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:20.680
<v Speaker 2>Well more so it made me the man I am today.

513
00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:23.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly exactly like I wouldn't be who I was

514
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.480
<v Speaker 1>if I didn't have to go through all this hard shit, right,

515
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:33.119
<v Speaker 1>And I think, and that's very and it makes a

516
00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:36.079
<v Speaker 1>lot of sense that people come to that conclusion. And

517
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:40.000
<v Speaker 1>it also makes it really hard to be flexible around

518
00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:43.640
<v Speaker 1>things that we actually needed and things that we really

519
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:47.319
<v Speaker 1>wanted and needed somebody to say or point out or

520
00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:50.400
<v Speaker 1>support us with. And so it would make a lot

521
00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:55.279
<v Speaker 1>of sense that any attachment that Ebenezer makes is on

522
00:29:55.519 --> 00:30:00.200
<v Speaker 1>his terms only, which means he is not allowing himself

523
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.640
<v Speaker 1>to really be connected to anyone else because that's not

524
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:04.960
<v Speaker 1>safe for him.

525
00:30:05.319 --> 00:30:09.400
<v Speaker 2>It is absolutely not. And I think as you were

526
00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:11.319
<v Speaker 2>talking about that, it occurred to me that there's another

527
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:15.519
<v Speaker 2>side of the attachment thing that becomes really apparent in

528
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:23.400
<v Speaker 2>behavior later on. Is that we learn vicariously by watching

529
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:26.599
<v Speaker 2>our caregivers and our parents. But one of the things

530
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:30.960
<v Speaker 2>that people don't often connect to is that we learn

531
00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:38.400
<v Speaker 2>whatever is adaptive. We don't just learn whatever is societally approvable.

532
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:44.039
<v Speaker 2>And when you think about Scrooge, he is more closely

533
00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:48.839
<v Speaker 2>mirroring the behavior of his father, who showed him that

534
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:53.839
<v Speaker 2>you can successfully lock out somebody you don't like, and

535
00:30:53.880 --> 00:30:58.440
<v Speaker 2>that if you take on that behavior, you can be stronger,

536
00:30:58.759 --> 00:31:02.119
<v Speaker 2>even though it hurt Young Scrooge. Old Scrooge who forms

537
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:04.720
<v Speaker 2>this narrative just made me the man I am today.

538
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:07.920
<v Speaker 2>All these beatings and ignoring and being left alone, and

539
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:10.359
<v Speaker 2>I learned to be smart and I learned to survive. No,

540
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:14.799
<v Speaker 2>that's adapting. But he also took on the knowledge and

541
00:31:14.839 --> 00:31:19.720
<v Speaker 2>then later mirrored and mimicked it by acting exactly like

542
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:23.279
<v Speaker 2>the person that hurt him, and that shows up in

543
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:26.319
<v Speaker 2>behavior all the time.

544
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:29.759
<v Speaker 3>I mean, have you seen the new Frankenstein movie?

545
00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:30.759
<v Speaker 2>Not yet?

546
00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:33.480
<v Speaker 1>It's freaking awesome. You need to see it on the

547
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:36.640
<v Speaker 1>biggest TV you have. It's so but it is like

548
00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:40.640
<v Speaker 1>exactly what you just said happens, which is I have

549
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:43.839
<v Speaker 1>I have become my father that I hate and that

550
00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:47.839
<v Speaker 1>I've been doing all this to spite, but yet I

551
00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:48.799
<v Speaker 1>become him.

552
00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:52.559
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and I'll watch it on my biggest TV upstairs

553
00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:55.400
<v Speaker 2>one of these days. The biggest TV I have is

554
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:57.200
<v Speaker 2>pretty good and I would like to see it. Looks

555
00:31:57.240 --> 00:31:57.799
<v Speaker 2>like it's good.

556
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:00.200
<v Speaker 1>And I think, as we're talking about this, what it's

557
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:03.680
<v Speaker 1>bringing to mind for me is I worked with a

558
00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:06.799
<v Speaker 1>lot of kids that have been diagnosed with reactive attachment disorder,

559
00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:13.400
<v Speaker 1>which is when a kid has been abused neglected, But

560
00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:17.119
<v Speaker 1>really a lot of it is more about that you

561
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:20.519
<v Speaker 1>didn't have a solid attachment to someone, either because you

562
00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:26.279
<v Speaker 1>were bounced around to different caregivers, or your caregivers didn't

563
00:32:26.920 --> 00:32:29.759
<v Speaker 1>take care of you well and neglected do in some

564
00:32:29.799 --> 00:32:33.119
<v Speaker 1>capacity or mistreated you in some capacity, or even if

565
00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:36.920
<v Speaker 1>you had a caregiver that maybe was around, but they

566
00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:42.160
<v Speaker 1>were depressed and so you didn't get the emotional attachment

567
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:45.759
<v Speaker 1>stuff that we need to get from a caregiver in

568
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:50.160
<v Speaker 1>our life. And when you were talking earlierhand about hoarding,

569
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:54.759
<v Speaker 1>that also connects to this for me in that when

570
00:32:54.759 --> 00:32:58.079
<v Speaker 1>I worked with kids that had reactive attachment disorder or

571
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:01.200
<v Speaker 1>RAD for short, they would do a lot of hoarding

572
00:33:01.240 --> 00:33:06.279
<v Speaker 1>behaviors because they didn't feel like they were in control.

573
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:11.200
<v Speaker 1>They knew that people, the adults in their lives didn't

574
00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:16.000
<v Speaker 1>necessarily want to or were able to take care of them.

575
00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:18.480
<v Speaker 1>And so a way that you survive, like you guys

576
00:33:18.519 --> 00:33:20.160
<v Speaker 1>are both talking about, like the ways that you adapt

577
00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:24.920
<v Speaker 1>and survive is by hoarding resources when they are available

578
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:25.240
<v Speaker 1>to you.

579
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:29.279
<v Speaker 3>So kids with RAD will hoard food and.

580
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:32.720
<v Speaker 1>Not fun food, Like I've had kids with RAD that

581
00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:36.160
<v Speaker 1>would like hoard like cake mix, like the box powder

582
00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:40.960
<v Speaker 1>that's not good by itself, or like cans of vegetables.

583
00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:44.640
<v Speaker 1>Like it's not like kids that are stealing candy bars

584
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:46.200
<v Speaker 1>and cookies.

585
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:48.960
<v Speaker 3>It's just truly like they're seeing.

586
00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:51.240
<v Speaker 1>Food and they're like, I don't know when I will

587
00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:53.720
<v Speaker 1>see food again, so I'm gonna take it. And that

588
00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:55.960
<v Speaker 1>can be when they've even lived with a secure caregiver

589
00:33:56.119 --> 00:33:59.119
<v Speaker 1>for a while, those behaviors will show up. And so

590
00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:01.960
<v Speaker 1>I think, like another version of this is what we're

591
00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:06.160
<v Speaker 1>seeing with Ebenezer, which is I can control how much

592
00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:09.119
<v Speaker 1>money I make. I've learned how to do that, Like

593
00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:11.519
<v Speaker 1>I develop the skills to do that with the few

594
00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:16.440
<v Speaker 1>caregivers slash teachers I've had, And it does make you

595
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:20.639
<v Speaker 1>feel safer because it doesn't involve anybody else. And so

596
00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:22.320
<v Speaker 1>when I've worked with kids that have more of the

597
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:27.519
<v Speaker 1>inhibited RAD type, which is him in a lot of ways,

598
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:29.639
<v Speaker 1>which is I don't really get close to anybody. I

599
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:32.320
<v Speaker 1>don't let anyone get close to me. I act like

600
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:36.440
<v Speaker 1>everyone can go fuck themselves, and I will get what

601
00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:38.079
<v Speaker 1>I can and I can get it, and I will

602
00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:42.000
<v Speaker 1>keep it for myself, I wouldn't be shocked if maybe

603
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.000
<v Speaker 1>when Ebenezer was a kid, and if I worked with him,

604
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:48.039
<v Speaker 1>I maybe could have given him a RAD diagnosis based

605
00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:51.239
<v Speaker 1>on him circumstances. But I think, yeah, this hoarding of

606
00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:54.280
<v Speaker 1>wealth can be a definite version of that.

607
00:34:56.119 --> 00:34:59.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm sure it can be. And as you watch

608
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:03.599
<v Speaker 2>him in this old age before the spirit's intervened, think

609
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:07.440
<v Speaker 2>about how many losses he's had and how much further

610
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:10.599
<v Speaker 2>into that he retreats each time. You see it as

611
00:35:10.599 --> 00:35:14.280
<v Speaker 2>a kid, but he's also when he's old. He's lost

612
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:21.199
<v Speaker 2>his sister, he's lost his business partner and friend, he's

613
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:26.159
<v Speaker 2>lost Belle. Who is left besides cratch It that he

614
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:29.519
<v Speaker 2>attaches to and the way he attaches to cratch It

615
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:30.599
<v Speaker 2>is pretty rad.

616
00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:34.159
<v Speaker 1>And his nephew too, And he has someone in his

617
00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:37.960
<v Speaker 1>life who is like truly open arms to him, right,

618
00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:41.679
<v Speaker 1>like you can do he can do whatever to his nephew,

619
00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:43.760
<v Speaker 1>and his nephew is still like, yo, you can come

620
00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:44.679
<v Speaker 1>to Christmas.

621
00:35:44.920 --> 00:35:45.960
<v Speaker 3>We'll always have.

622
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:48.519
<v Speaker 2>You and his cnicle gun when you're not here.

623
00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:50.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And his.

624
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:57.280
<v Speaker 1>Total removal response rejection response is yeah, a form of RAD.

625
00:35:58.000 --> 00:35:59.960
<v Speaker 1>I've worked with plenty of kids that they get adopt

626
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:02.840
<v Speaker 1>did or they get into a caregiver situation with a

627
00:36:02.840 --> 00:36:06.320
<v Speaker 1>secure caregiver for years sometimes before I worked with them,

628
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:10.199
<v Speaker 1>and they would still be very rejecting, like don't I

629
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:12.079
<v Speaker 1>don't want to be hugged, I don't want to be touched,

630
00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:13.760
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to don't tell me you love me.

631
00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:15.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to tell you I love you. And

632
00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:19.880
<v Speaker 1>when I work with the parents, I would encourage the

633
00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:23.159
<v Speaker 1>parents to chill the fuck out. And what I mean

634
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:27.079
<v Speaker 1>by that is, don't put pressure on the kid. They

635
00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:29.400
<v Speaker 1>need time. Maybe it's going to be years and years

636
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:34.440
<v Speaker 1>and years, if at all, to really know if they

637
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:37.159
<v Speaker 1>can be vulnerable to you, Because that's really what it

638
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:40.079
<v Speaker 1>is is can I am I ever going to be

639
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:45.199
<v Speaker 1>safe enough, safe enough to trust enough to be squishy

640
00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:48.960
<v Speaker 1>and vulnerable to you? Because it's not just whether Ebenezer

641
00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:51.719
<v Speaker 1>feels love for his nephew or love for Crashed, or

642
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:54.639
<v Speaker 1>love who for whoever, for Bell, which.

643
00:36:54.440 --> 00:36:56.960
<v Speaker 2>He does in his way, but the more the culture

644
00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:58.599
<v Speaker 2>he gets, the more he rejects.

645
00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:01.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's not that's much whether he's capable of feeling

646
00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:04.360
<v Speaker 1>love for them. It's whether he feels like it won't

647
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:11.920
<v Speaker 1>kill him emotionally literally maybe even to be open about

648
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:18.719
<v Speaker 1>that love. That's really what can feel almost intolerably uncomfortable

649
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:22.480
<v Speaker 1>and unsafe when someone has has deep attachment wounds. Is

650
00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:27.719
<v Speaker 1>then me asking them to open up to someone is

651
00:37:28.119 --> 00:37:29.840
<v Speaker 1>truly like I'm saying, I want you to rip your

652
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:32.480
<v Speaker 1>heart out, and I want to hold it in your hands,

653
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:34.440
<v Speaker 1>and I want you to put it in someone else's

654
00:37:34.440 --> 00:37:38.159
<v Speaker 1>hands who you just have to trust. Isn't gonna like

655
00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:41.480
<v Speaker 1>take that heart and just shove it between their fists

656
00:37:41.480 --> 00:37:43.400
<v Speaker 1>and squeeze it and then shove it onto the ground

657
00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:44.880
<v Speaker 1>and step on it. Because that's what his parents did.

658
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:46.400
<v Speaker 1>You know what I mean, Like, that's where these woundes

659
00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:49.960
<v Speaker 1>come from. Is you had someone when you were a kid.

660
00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:52.840
<v Speaker 1>They did not hold your heart the way they should

661
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:55.679
<v Speaker 1>have if they did it all. And so how are

662
00:37:55.719 --> 00:37:57.920
<v Speaker 1>you to trust that anyone else could do that?

663
00:37:58.440 --> 00:37:59.360
<v Speaker 3>Why would you do that?

664
00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:04.119
<v Speaker 2>And his nephew, at least the book implies. It never

665
00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:08.000
<v Speaker 2>clearly states, but his sister died young, but it seems

666
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:13.440
<v Speaker 2>to imply she died, possibly in childbirth, So yet another

667
00:38:13.639 --> 00:38:19.559
<v Speaker 2>extra layer of complication of accepting that nephew. Because yet again,

668
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:22.159
<v Speaker 2>something new and good can come into your life and

669
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:25.960
<v Speaker 2>take away from you. So should you trust it? Should

670
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:28.599
<v Speaker 2>you let it in? You might want to let it

671
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:34.079
<v Speaker 2>in because it's the last piece, but also, nah, that's

672
00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:36.440
<v Speaker 2>going to get me hurt, so you stay frozen out.

673
00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:39.760
<v Speaker 2>When I worked with kids, so there's one kid in

674
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:43.079
<v Speaker 2>particular who was absolutely head read. And remember he eventually

675
00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:46.559
<v Speaker 2>got adopted, and it was a struggle at first, and

676
00:38:46.599 --> 00:38:49.760
<v Speaker 2>you'd see like he was really attaching hard to this

677
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:51.840
<v Speaker 2>person that was adopting him. And then once the adoptions

678
00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:58.480
<v Speaker 2>started getting closer, behaviors turned up almost as a test,

679
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:02.079
<v Speaker 2>will you love me at my worst?

680
00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:05.679
<v Speaker 1>No, they will test the absolute shit out of you.

681
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:07.719
<v Speaker 1>Which is also what I used to have to coach

682
00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:11.960
<v Speaker 1>parents through, is that this kid is going to test

683
00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:19.440
<v Speaker 1>and your job is to stay calm and consistent with

684
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:22.559
<v Speaker 1>them and just keep saying like, no matter what happens,

685
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:26.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going anywhere. Do you wonder as you're saying that,

686
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:29.400
<v Speaker 1>do you wonder with Bell if some of what he

687
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:31.719
<v Speaker 1>was doing was like unconscious testing of her.

688
00:39:33.079 --> 00:39:35.599
<v Speaker 2>I think he was probably at that point a little

689
00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:39.159
<v Speaker 2>too young to recognize it, but he may have been.

690
00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:41.639
<v Speaker 2>I think some part of it was. But I think

691
00:39:41.719 --> 00:39:45.679
<v Speaker 2>at that point he's so locked into the value that

692
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:49.079
<v Speaker 2>he had that the only way he felt he could

693
00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:52.400
<v Speaker 2>be good enough was to lean into the strength side

694
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:53.639
<v Speaker 2>of it. So it's kind of like a missing a

695
00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:56.760
<v Speaker 2>forest for the trees kind of thing. Hey, I need

696
00:39:56.800 --> 00:39:58.719
<v Speaker 2>to have business needs to be doing well enough that

697
00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:00.880
<v Speaker 2>I can support you and you can marry me, so

698
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:04.119
<v Speaker 2>you don't leave me. That I have to be good enough,

699
00:40:04.119 --> 00:40:05.320
<v Speaker 2>and you have to see me it's good enough, and

700
00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:06.519
<v Speaker 2>I have to see me it's good enough, and that

701
00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:10.840
<v Speaker 2>the only way your silly feelings can't be in those

702
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:13.760
<v Speaker 2>are silly. It has to be I have to have

703
00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:16.639
<v Speaker 2>enough business sense that it makes sense on the ledger

704
00:40:17.239 --> 00:40:18.760
<v Speaker 2>for us to be married and me to be a

705
00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:22.079
<v Speaker 2>good husband, where she just wants him to be present

706
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:26.159
<v Speaker 2>and there and him, you know, attend to her. And

707
00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:30.159
<v Speaker 2>I think at some point she tells him that she

708
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:32.480
<v Speaker 2>feels like she's become like a golden idol or something,

709
00:40:32.599 --> 00:40:34.360
<v Speaker 2>or that business has become a golden idol. There's some

710
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:39.519
<v Speaker 2>mention of that, like really elevating how she feels like

711
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:42.400
<v Speaker 2>she is left behind and not seen anymore and that's

712
00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:43.519
<v Speaker 2>why she left.

713
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:48.719
<v Speaker 1>And what you're saying is is so real in the

714
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:54.079
<v Speaker 1>sense that when you grow up in this situation Ebenezer

715
00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:57.639
<v Speaker 1>did with his parents. Also, it wouldn't ever occur to

716
00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:00.960
<v Speaker 1>him that someone would just want to be with him

717
00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:04.760
<v Speaker 1>because they love him. Like the idea of Belle not

718
00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:08.559
<v Speaker 1>caring about the money stuff as much, that he doesn't

719
00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:11.880
<v Speaker 1>have to demonstrate his value via money because she already

720
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:16.400
<v Speaker 1>believes that he is value is like another thing that

721
00:41:16.440 --> 00:41:18.639
<v Speaker 1>would be hitting him like an alien belief.

722
00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:20.920
<v Speaker 3>So it does maybe wonder too with him.

723
00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:24.760
<v Speaker 1>Another way to think of it is maybe it really

724
00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:29.039
<v Speaker 1>did surprise him that it would push her away that

725
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:30.920
<v Speaker 1>he has to wait untill he is enough money. Like

726
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:33.440
<v Speaker 1>I could also see because of how bought in he

727
00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:35.679
<v Speaker 1>is to that as a value that of course she

728
00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:38.559
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't want to get married either until I have enough money.

729
00:41:39.400 --> 00:41:41.119
<v Speaker 3>And so we're both on the same page about that.

730
00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:45.199
<v Speaker 1>So I also wonder if maybe it was quite shocking

731
00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:51.000
<v Speaker 1>for him that that would actually break them apart instead

732
00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:54.800
<v Speaker 1>of something that she would have like an inherent understanding of.

733
00:41:56.840 --> 00:42:00.239
<v Speaker 2>I think that you're right that I think it does

734
00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:05.199
<v Speaker 2>surprise him. But he also doesn't do anything to say no,

735
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:07.280
<v Speaker 2>wait stop, he doesn't.

736
00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:09.960
<v Speaker 1>That's the rat of it all too, Like he's like

737
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:11.920
<v Speaker 1>well see there you go. Of course, on how he

738
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:15.440
<v Speaker 1>just walks away in that scene, right, she's singing and

739
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:17.559
<v Speaker 1>he's just like, Okay, well I guess this ain't gonna work,

740
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:18.400
<v Speaker 1>so he just walks away.

741
00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:18.800
<v Speaker 2>It's like.

742
00:42:20.679 --> 00:42:24.079
<v Speaker 1>Having again that awareness, like he doesn't have awareness about

743
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:28.199
<v Speaker 1>what even being in the middle relationally is like, right,

744
00:42:28.280 --> 00:42:32.039
<v Speaker 1>he's only experienced the extremes, right, So when you've only

745
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:36.519
<v Speaker 1>experienced the extremes the kind of natural experiences that we have,

746
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:39.079
<v Speaker 1>seems so they're too comfortable.

747
00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:42.599
<v Speaker 3>They're too they don't have.

748
00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:46.760
<v Speaker 1>The chaos attached to them the way that their other

749
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:50.480
<v Speaker 1>experiences have. So that's a part of why they feel

750
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:53.199
<v Speaker 1>so uncomfortable. You mean, like kind of when we talk

751
00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:57.440
<v Speaker 1>about like the window of tolerance in regards to trauma. Yeah,

752
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:01.400
<v Speaker 1>that when you're used to, Yeah, when we were used

753
00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:05.079
<v Speaker 1>to really elevated situations calm. It's like, i mean, like

754
00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:07.239
<v Speaker 1>this is stereotype, right, And I'm sure we've all had

755
00:43:07.239 --> 00:43:11.079
<v Speaker 1>this experience with clients where they have a trauma background

756
00:43:11.159 --> 00:43:14.599
<v Speaker 1>and they're finally in a relationship that's Jill, and they

757
00:43:14.599 --> 00:43:17.239
<v Speaker 1>can't stop talking about how boring it is it else

758
00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:20.000
<v Speaker 1>and how there's something wrong with the fact that it's

759
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:21.760
<v Speaker 1>so boring and that they need to break up with

760
00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:23.920
<v Speaker 1>them because it's not working, And I'll be like, are

761
00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:28.039
<v Speaker 1>we bored or are we just like not so hyper

762
00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:31.679
<v Speaker 1>aroused in a traumatized way that too.

763
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:38.119
<v Speaker 2>I think there's real struggle with people who have been

764
00:43:38.119 --> 00:43:41.599
<v Speaker 2>in really chaotic situations that they only look for and

765
00:43:41.679 --> 00:43:44.840
<v Speaker 2>register the extremes but don't understand the in betweens having,

766
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:48.639
<v Speaker 2>like normal relationships go through ups and downs, and sometimes

767
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:50.840
<v Speaker 2>you're a little more connected, sometimes you're a little less,

768
00:43:50.840 --> 00:43:53.920
<v Speaker 2>but it's okay. And they're looking for that like complete

769
00:43:53.960 --> 00:43:56.840
<v Speaker 2>toxic love situation because all the love they know and

770
00:43:56.920 --> 00:44:02.159
<v Speaker 2>understand was toxic and came with severe ties consequences at

771
00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:05.440
<v Speaker 2>the end of those toxic periods, Like if look at Scrooge,

772
00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:10.960
<v Speaker 2>Scrooge only learned well, if I connect emotionally and assign

773
00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:14.159
<v Speaker 2>emotional value to these things, I'm gonna get the extreme

774
00:44:14.199 --> 00:44:16.920
<v Speaker 2>reaction of being abandoned and my family's gonna see me

775
00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:18.800
<v Speaker 2>as a pain in the ass, and that my dad

776
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:20.840
<v Speaker 2>hates me. So if I attached him, I'm just gonna

777
00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:25.239
<v Speaker 2>get hurt. But if I attach fully to money, I'm

778
00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:28.639
<v Speaker 2>gonna get praise, and that's gonna be really good. So

779
00:44:28.719 --> 00:44:34.199
<v Speaker 2>he struggles to recognize how hard he's shifting into that

780
00:44:35.079 --> 00:44:38.199
<v Speaker 2>I love money and I need to do everything because

781
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:41.159
<v Speaker 2>money is the only way that I actually feel good enough,

782
00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:46.960
<v Speaker 2>and he doesn't connect. In the minute Bell shows him yep, gonna,

783
00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:49.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna go, he doesn't pursue her because he's just

784
00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:52.320
<v Speaker 2>gonna get hurt, and he leans even further into money.

785
00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:58.639
<v Speaker 1>So sad and I feel like with I think it's

786
00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:03.480
<v Speaker 1>also interesting that with Ebenezer, he the first relationship that

787
00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:07.639
<v Speaker 1>he tries to repair after having the miraculous dreams and

788
00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:10.880
<v Speaker 1>all that piece is a relationship that he's only connected

789
00:45:10.920 --> 00:45:14.960
<v Speaker 1>through business. With Bob Cratchittt is the first person that

790
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:18.599
<v Speaker 1>he can even consider to repair a relationship with because

791
00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:22.679
<v Speaker 1>the attachment to Bob is through is as his employee,

792
00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:26.400
<v Speaker 1>and that he is almost I don't want to say

793
00:45:26.440 --> 00:45:31.559
<v Speaker 1>guaranteed a positive response, but more guaranteed than maybe Bell,

794
00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:32.800
<v Speaker 1>than maybe with Belle.

795
00:45:33.559 --> 00:45:36.079
<v Speaker 2>You have a very good point. The Cratches the second

796
00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:39.000
<v Speaker 2>person he goes to. He goes to the nephew first,

797
00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:46.639
<v Speaker 2>but he does way more work with Bob, which I

798
00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:50.880
<v Speaker 2>think lends very strongly to your point. I think he

799
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:53.559
<v Speaker 2>always connects with the nephew first because he goes to

800
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:57.159
<v Speaker 2>the family bond, but he doesn't stay very long. He

801
00:45:57.199 --> 00:45:59.119
<v Speaker 2>just kind of he kind of like hits and miss

802
00:45:59.159 --> 00:46:00.960
<v Speaker 2>unlets his nephew know, like, Hey, I am going to

803
00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:04.519
<v Speaker 2>come see you on Christmas. But then also he dips out.

804
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:07.679
<v Speaker 2>And I know in this version, like the nephew shows

805
00:46:07.719 --> 00:46:09.880
<v Speaker 2>up at Cratchit's and they have like a big party.

806
00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:12.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that happens in the other ones.

807
00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:17.599
<v Speaker 1>But you're right in that with Bob, he can use

808
00:46:17.719 --> 00:46:21.719
<v Speaker 1>the language that he's already comfortable speaking, Like the way

809
00:46:21.719 --> 00:46:25.880
<v Speaker 1>that he shows Bob love and to repair the relationship

810
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:28.360
<v Speaker 1>is I will give you a raise, I'll pay off

811
00:46:28.519 --> 00:46:32.960
<v Speaker 1>your house, and like I'll help tiny Tim get what

812
00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:38.119
<v Speaker 1>he needs, like I'll spoil you monetarily as a way

813
00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:43.920
<v Speaker 1>to become attached with each other, Which isn't I mean,

814
00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:46.800
<v Speaker 1>like that's it's the yeah, you're right hand, It's like

815
00:46:46.840 --> 00:46:48.840
<v Speaker 1>the safest way. And I don't think it's like the

816
00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:51.239
<v Speaker 1>worst thing. I think it's just him having to walk

817
00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:53.239
<v Speaker 1>before he walk before he runs.

818
00:46:53.599 --> 00:46:54.920
<v Speaker 3>I don't think it's a bad thing at all.

819
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:57.480
<v Speaker 1>I think, in fact, it would be an example of

820
00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:00.599
<v Speaker 1>I talk a lot about with clients about out how

821
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:07.000
<v Speaker 1>we instead of trying to correct something with someone new,

822
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:10.480
<v Speaker 1>why don't we choose a person that we've known for

823
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:15.119
<v Speaker 1>a while and share something with them first to see

824
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:20.519
<v Speaker 1>if there's a better outcome, right, Because people always want

825
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:24.119
<v Speaker 1>to try it out on someone new. They want to

826
00:47:24.159 --> 00:47:27.239
<v Speaker 1>wait until they have this new experience so that they

827
00:47:27.239 --> 00:47:30.719
<v Speaker 1>can show out these new ideas and awareness that they

828
00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:34.559
<v Speaker 1>now have of themselves. And that's when boundary setting can

829
00:47:34.599 --> 00:47:37.360
<v Speaker 1>really fail when we try to do it with someone

830
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:40.800
<v Speaker 1>new versus with someone that we already have a connection.

831
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:44.840
<v Speaker 2>With and end up love bombing and not recognizing that

832
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:50.079
<v Speaker 2>someone else might look at that and go WHOA way

833
00:47:50.119 --> 00:47:55.039
<v Speaker 2>too much, way too soon. Yeah, and we can throw

834
00:47:55.119 --> 00:47:58.880
<v Speaker 2>the other person who's trying to do this miraculous recovery

835
00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:00.480
<v Speaker 2>of all the things that have always been wrong with me,

836
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:05.639
<v Speaker 2>which is just such an ADHD thing to do. But

837
00:48:05.719 --> 00:48:07.599
<v Speaker 2>these people that go through this exact thing you're talking

838
00:48:07.639 --> 00:48:10.119
<v Speaker 2>about the consequence of that can be people who have

839
00:48:10.840 --> 00:48:16.280
<v Speaker 2>not encountered what is happening here, going like, ah way

840
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:18.920
<v Speaker 2>too much. What we see in that cycle is that

841
00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:21.679
<v Speaker 2>this person is reaching out for connection and they're showing

842
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:24.519
<v Speaker 2>a bit for connection, and it's getting rejected because they're

843
00:48:24.599 --> 00:48:27.239
<v Speaker 2>too much and they're showing too much, and they're trying

844
00:48:27.280 --> 00:48:33.760
<v Speaker 2>to fix and place way too much emotional weight on

845
00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:37.239
<v Speaker 2>this relationship, and the other person's like, I'm trying to

846
00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:39.599
<v Speaker 2>figure out if I like hanging out with you. This

847
00:48:39.800 --> 00:48:43.039
<v Speaker 2>is a little bit, a little bit early. And there's

848
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:44.880
<v Speaker 2>a line from Supertroopers. I don't know if I've said

849
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:48.719
<v Speaker 2>on this show before, but I do love Supertroopers. It

850
00:48:48.760 --> 00:48:55.559
<v Speaker 2>makes me laugh. Is desperation is a stinky cologne, And man,

851
00:48:55.599 --> 00:48:57.079
<v Speaker 2>is that not more true in a relationship and you

852
00:48:57.079 --> 00:48:58.920
<v Speaker 2>feel somebody trying to do that thing. Hannah talk about

853
00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:00.639
<v Speaker 2>it like I'm gonna fix everything it's ever been wrong

854
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:02.119
<v Speaker 2>because I learned this new skill and now I'm gonna

855
00:49:02.119 --> 00:49:04.159
<v Speaker 2>fix everything. And everything with you is just gonna work out,

856
00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:06.719
<v Speaker 2>and you're gonna be the person in my dreams. And

857
00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:10.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty sure that's what the movie with Joseph Gordon

858
00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:12.800
<v Speaker 2>Levin that we did was about five Hundred Days of

859
00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:14.880
<v Speaker 2>the Summer kind of about that thing, and like, no, you

860
00:49:14.920 --> 00:49:16.960
<v Speaker 2>fell in love with the idea of a person, not

861
00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:17.480
<v Speaker 2>the person.

862
00:49:18.199 --> 00:49:23.039
<v Speaker 1>And it's also a shortcut, right, I'm gonna start over

863
00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:27.760
<v Speaker 1>fresh with someone new, instead of having to do the

864
00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:31.480
<v Speaker 1>more vulnerable work, which is go to someone that already

865
00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:35.760
<v Speaker 1>has a history with me and I have a reputation

866
00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:40.039
<v Speaker 1>with them, and I have to see the true vulnerability

867
00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:43.400
<v Speaker 1>is like showing up and then seeing if things can

868
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:46.559
<v Speaker 1>turn around. Is like we're like I was kind of

869
00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:48.960
<v Speaker 1>talking about, like opening up my heart a little bit

870
00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:53.679
<v Speaker 1>and seeing if they can receive it or not, and

871
00:49:53.719 --> 00:49:59.880
<v Speaker 1>tolerating that experience, which is much more brutal than or

872
00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:02.519
<v Speaker 1>feels much more brutal than going to someone new who

873
00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:05.280
<v Speaker 1>has no idea of who you are that you can

874
00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:10.599
<v Speaker 1>create a new idea with. And his nephew speaks through

875
00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:13.400
<v Speaker 1>the language of love, you know. His nephew is very

876
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:17.800
<v Speaker 1>like warm and fuzzy, and that is really uncomfortable. It's

877
00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:20.280
<v Speaker 1>making me think of because Hannah and I watched Scrooge

878
00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:24.119
<v Speaker 1>last night, which is the Bill Murray retelling of this story.

879
00:50:24.719 --> 00:50:27.599
<v Speaker 1>And actually Bill Murray, I think, does a really good job,

880
00:50:27.639 --> 00:50:32.280
<v Speaker 1>maybe the best job, of conveying this thing we're talking

881
00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:34.320
<v Speaker 1>about right now.

882
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:36.760
<v Speaker 3>But in his story it's his brother, not his nephew.

883
00:50:37.880 --> 00:50:43.079
<v Speaker 1>And the way that Bill Murray looks so not distraught,

884
00:50:43.159 --> 00:50:45.199
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you have a better word for it, Hannah.

885
00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:50.079
<v Speaker 1>But he looks so emotionally uncomfortable around his younger brother,

886
00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:52.400
<v Speaker 1>and not because he doesn't like his brother. You can

887
00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:55.119
<v Speaker 1>actually tell that the more he likes his brother, the

888
00:50:55.159 --> 00:50:56.719
<v Speaker 1>more he's like, I gotta get the fuck out of here.

889
00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:02.199
<v Speaker 1>It's like he can't tolerate being around his brother because

890
00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:05.239
<v Speaker 1>of all the warm and fuzzy energy around his brother,

891
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:07.320
<v Speaker 1>and how he doesn't know how to deal with that,

892
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:10.239
<v Speaker 1>and so he just doesn't even try, and he just

893
00:51:10.280 --> 00:51:14.320
<v Speaker 1>like skips out. And I think that's a really realistic

894
00:51:14.440 --> 00:51:18.519
<v Speaker 1>version of a really realistic portrayal of what we're discussing,

895
00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:22.320
<v Speaker 1>which is how when you aren't used to these kind

896
00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:25.519
<v Speaker 1>of things being around it.

897
00:51:24.679 --> 00:51:26.039
<v Speaker 3>Will make you uncomfortable.

898
00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:29.639
<v Speaker 1>And it's good when you work with clients to name

899
00:51:29.679 --> 00:51:32.599
<v Speaker 1>that so that they're prepared for that and so they

900
00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:37.159
<v Speaker 1>don't misunderstand the discomfort for like I'm doing the wrong

901
00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:41.280
<v Speaker 1>thing or this isn't right, or however they might very

902
00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:46.480
<v Speaker 1>understandably miss construe or identify the discomfort they're feeling. That

903
00:51:46.599 --> 00:51:49.599
<v Speaker 1>It is one of the many things in therapy where

904
00:51:49.639 --> 00:51:52.320
<v Speaker 1>you have the opposite reaction that then you think you

905
00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:56.000
<v Speaker 1>would have, and so it is our duty as therapist

906
00:51:56.039 --> 00:51:59.159
<v Speaker 1>to give people a heads up so that they don't

907
00:51:59.719 --> 00:52:02.119
<v Speaker 1>free can leave, which I can understand if they did,

908
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:04.360
<v Speaker 1>and that they have to sit in the discomfort of

909
00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:09.440
<v Speaker 1>the squishiness of the vulnerability. But yeah, his nephew, even

910
00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:11.519
<v Speaker 1>though you think he'd be like the safest option, in

911
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:14.000
<v Speaker 1>some ways, I think will be the hardest for him.

912
00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:21.599
<v Speaker 2>I'll definitely be the hardest, agree, because there's real emotional

913
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:23.599
<v Speaker 2>connection there and real work to do that's going to

914
00:52:23.639 --> 00:52:27.239
<v Speaker 2>go far beyond just that employer relationship, no doubt.

915
00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:29.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because it's a good point too that with cratch It,

916
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:34.679
<v Speaker 1>they have that natural boundary, yeah, of employer and employee,

917
00:52:35.239 --> 00:52:40.400
<v Speaker 1>and so he can use that to his advantage, whether.

918
00:52:40.199 --> 00:52:40.840
<v Speaker 3>He's and I don't.

919
00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:42.960
<v Speaker 1>And I'll say I don't think he's doing that consciously,

920
00:52:43.159 --> 00:52:47.519
<v Speaker 1>but that there is safety with that natural boundary, yep.

921
00:52:47.719 --> 00:52:50.239
<v Speaker 2>And he can yet again step in and use the

922
00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:54.000
<v Speaker 2>money that he's learned to control and stabilize the world

923
00:52:54.039 --> 00:52:58.199
<v Speaker 2>with to control and stabilize that relationship. Cratch It will

924
00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:01.920
<v Speaker 2>not leave songs he pays improperly and you know, keeps

925
00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:04.320
<v Speaker 2>this little boy from dying of whatever disease he has,

926
00:53:05.639 --> 00:53:10.440
<v Speaker 2>and then he can have a pseudo Marley to have

927
00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:12.920
<v Speaker 2>a connection with, but just better. But he doesn't have

928
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:15.480
<v Speaker 2>to reinvent the wheel because it gets real clear that

929
00:53:15.559 --> 00:53:18.559
<v Speaker 2>the relationship with the nephew is gonna it's going to

930
00:53:18.639 --> 00:53:21.280
<v Speaker 2>take some more time because also the nephew is not

931
00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:23.760
<v Speaker 2>going to know that Scrooge saw him with the ghost

932
00:53:23.800 --> 00:53:26.920
<v Speaker 2>of Christmas present, going well, it's not a rat and

933
00:53:26.920 --> 00:53:29.199
<v Speaker 2>it's not a cockroach. What's something else that nobody wants

934
00:53:29.239 --> 00:53:34.480
<v Speaker 2>at Christmas? Oh Scrooge, Oh, that's going to take some

935
00:53:34.760 --> 00:53:38.880
<v Speaker 2>time for him to repair. Even though the movie shows

936
00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:41.599
<v Speaker 2>us he's recognizing like, oh, yeah, I'm kind of an asshole.

937
00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:44.440
<v Speaker 2>Huh Yeah, that's not the way emotions work. You might

938
00:53:44.719 --> 00:53:48.239
<v Speaker 2>have context for it in that moment when you're vulnerable

939
00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:51.119
<v Speaker 2>and learning, but the more protective voice and parts of

940
00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:54.639
<v Speaker 2>you were going to show up later and be like, ah,

941
00:53:54.800 --> 00:53:57.159
<v Speaker 2>this motherfucker inviting you to dinner is the same one

942
00:53:57.159 --> 00:53:59.039
<v Speaker 2>that said you were less desirable than a rat and

943
00:53:59.079 --> 00:54:05.320
<v Speaker 2>a cockroach, Right, that's who him. M M humbug.

944
00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:08.000
<v Speaker 1>All right, let's take a break care and we'll be

945
00:54:08.079 --> 00:54:13.039
<v Speaker 1>right back to talk about values and the divine intervention

946
00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:18.559
<v Speaker 1>aspect of this story, all right, So what made me

947
00:54:18.599 --> 00:54:22.119
<v Speaker 1>think of that, Ben, is what you said about the

948
00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:26.559
<v Speaker 1>context in which he receives Scrooge that information. Is that

949
00:54:26.639 --> 00:54:30.840
<v Speaker 1>Something that does propel the story obviously is the fact

950
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:37.400
<v Speaker 1>that he's having a wild experience that is forcing him

951
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:42.079
<v Speaker 1>to confront his past trauma and attachment wounds, but also

952
00:54:42.679 --> 00:54:46.000
<v Speaker 1>his values. How that reaches through to all the parts

953
00:54:46.039 --> 00:54:48.679
<v Speaker 1>of his life, both past, present and the future.

954
00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:54.000
<v Speaker 2>It sure does. And it's real clear that it's not

955
00:54:54.119 --> 00:54:57.719
<v Speaker 2>just a bit of bad meat or a piece of

956
00:54:58.519 --> 00:55:02.840
<v Speaker 2>rotten cheese. I know that, right, But instead it's a

957
00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:07.519
<v Speaker 2>divine intervention with the intent to make a change on

958
00:55:07.599 --> 00:55:12.679
<v Speaker 2>a profoundly lost man, to keep him from getting more lost,

959
00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:16.719
<v Speaker 2>and sort of the story kind of implies that the

960
00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:22.400
<v Speaker 2>divine intervention is coming from Marley or someone releasing Marlee

961
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:24.119
<v Speaker 2>to go talk to him as the only voice that

962
00:55:24.199 --> 00:55:29.239
<v Speaker 2>will reach him. But the first person that comes to

963
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:31.800
<v Speaker 2>talk to him from beyond the grave is Jacob Marley.

964
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:36.039
<v Speaker 2>All in chains with chain to the money, which is

965
00:55:36.079 --> 00:55:40.159
<v Speaker 2>a really powerful vision that's also been enduring of like

966
00:55:41.159 --> 00:55:43.920
<v Speaker 2>carrying around all these heavy chains, chain to the things,

967
00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:48.599
<v Speaker 2>change to your sins and being. He kind of implied

968
00:55:48.639 --> 00:55:51.400
<v Speaker 2>he's not necessarily stuck in hell, but stuck in purgatory

969
00:55:51.920 --> 00:55:55.320
<v Speaker 2>with these chains to carry around until he can pay

970
00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:59.599
<v Speaker 2>for his sins. If ever and warning Scrooge, hey, I'm

971
00:55:59.639 --> 00:56:04.159
<v Speaker 2>still stuck here. You have time. I don't. But we

972
00:56:04.199 --> 00:56:09.400
<v Speaker 2>see these values that he's developed start to crack after

973
00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:13.039
<v Speaker 2>each of these spirits start showing him his own life.

974
00:56:13.039 --> 00:56:15.679
<v Speaker 2>Moment after moment, he's forced to consider, how did I

975
00:56:15.800 --> 00:56:21.119
<v Speaker 2>form these beliefs and do I still believe them? Value

976
00:56:21.159 --> 00:56:23.920
<v Speaker 2>formation is a pretty powerful component of how we see

977
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:26.239
<v Speaker 2>and understand the world, and if you talk about things

978
00:56:26.239 --> 00:56:30.159
<v Speaker 2>through a cognitive behavioral lens, they're the deepest and most

979
00:56:30.400 --> 00:56:34.960
<v Speaker 2>difficult layer to challenge and change. You can't challenge and

980
00:56:35.039 --> 00:56:40.039
<v Speaker 2>change them without a very big event happening. Something's got

981
00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:44.800
<v Speaker 2>to really make you reconsider how you view things, or

982
00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:48.199
<v Speaker 2>you won't because these are the things that I've been taught.

983
00:56:48.239 --> 00:56:51.320
<v Speaker 2>They're tried and true. When we think about Scrooge, what

984
00:56:51.360 --> 00:56:55.079
<v Speaker 2>do we see his values as well?

985
00:56:55.119 --> 00:56:58.920
<v Speaker 1>I would say he values money, obviously, but I would

986
00:56:58.920 --> 00:57:05.039
<v Speaker 1>say underneath money what he values is independence, hard work,

987
00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:11.039
<v Speaker 1>hyper individualism. You know, even earlier when they were talking

988
00:57:11.079 --> 00:57:16.400
<v Speaker 1>about the two guys come in to get donations and

989
00:57:16.440 --> 00:57:18.679
<v Speaker 1>he's like, why don't they work hard or something like that.

990
00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:25.239
<v Speaker 1>He's like, he is espousing this idea that, yeah, bootstrap

991
00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:29.960
<v Speaker 1>shit like the meritocracy lie that our country loves, which

992
00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:33.239
<v Speaker 1>is that if you just worked hard enough that you

993
00:57:33.639 --> 00:57:36.159
<v Speaker 1>would be fine, which in his story I guess technically

994
00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:39.599
<v Speaker 1>is true in that he just devoted his whole self

995
00:57:39.639 --> 00:57:44.880
<v Speaker 1>to making money and he is idolizing that about himself. Right,

996
00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:47.440
<v Speaker 1>So I think he would say that he values hard work,

997
00:57:48.199 --> 00:57:54.960
<v Speaker 1>and he values being financially literate and being I don't

998
00:57:55.000 --> 00:57:56.760
<v Speaker 1>think he would say cheap or whatever they call him.

999
00:57:56.800 --> 00:58:00.639
<v Speaker 1>I think he would just say like responsible, frugal, you know,

1000
00:58:00.760 --> 00:58:09.320
<v Speaker 1>not concerned with frivolities. And underneath that value though that

1001
00:58:09.440 --> 00:58:13.320
<v Speaker 1>I don't think he would identify, is how that's connected

1002
00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:21.199
<v Speaker 1>to his feelings of like safety, security, control, power, all

1003
00:58:21.199 --> 00:58:23.880
<v Speaker 1>that kind of stuff that makes him feel like he's

1004
00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:24.440
<v Speaker 1>in control.

1005
00:58:24.519 --> 00:58:26.760
<v Speaker 3>Because that's also why not to get on a whole tangent.

1006
00:58:26.840 --> 00:58:30.039
<v Speaker 1>All those people are so invested in this idea of

1007
00:58:30.159 --> 00:58:34.199
<v Speaker 1>meritocracy in America, and people will I mean, I get

1008
00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:37.360
<v Speaker 1>into arguments sometimes with people in my life about the

1009
00:58:37.400 --> 00:58:40.199
<v Speaker 1>idea of meritocracy, and I think it's It goes back

1010
00:58:40.239 --> 00:58:43.280
<v Speaker 1>to this idea that it is. It is a safe,

1011
00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:47.280
<v Speaker 1>comforting idea for a lot of people that if you

1012
00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:50.079
<v Speaker 1>just work hard, you can kind of have total control

1013
00:58:50.119 --> 00:58:54.039
<v Speaker 1>over your future and over what happens to you. And

1014
00:58:54.079 --> 00:58:55.519
<v Speaker 1>so I think he's in that trap.

1015
00:58:55.760 --> 00:59:01.639
<v Speaker 2>Well, Scrooge is from the aristocracy already. I mean, yes,

1016
00:59:01.719 --> 00:59:04.360
<v Speaker 2>he's in that trap, but he's in that trap of

1017
00:59:04.400 --> 00:59:06.880
<v Speaker 2>trying to apply it to other people while not recognizing

1018
00:59:07.119 --> 00:59:08.119
<v Speaker 2>he's above.

1019
00:59:07.840 --> 00:59:09.840
<v Speaker 3>It exactly because he's exactly.

1020
00:59:09.920 --> 00:59:14.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's basically That's all Dickens's work is examining

1021
00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:19.440
<v Speaker 2>the Victorian England and how fucking ridiculous it is that

1022
00:59:19.840 --> 00:59:24.079
<v Speaker 2>the rich just prey on the poor. That's David Copperfield.

1023
00:59:24.119 --> 00:59:27.639
<v Speaker 2>All these stories that are about that, and all of

1024
00:59:27.679 --> 00:59:30.440
<v Speaker 2>them have that lesson in there. It's clear that Dickens

1025
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:35.880
<v Speaker 2>was trying to kind of create that message of like hey, hey, hey, no, like,

1026
00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:39.840
<v Speaker 2>are you serious right now, Oliver Twist, Like we're you

1027
00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:43.119
<v Speaker 2>see where these kids are living in a workhouse. Who's

1028
00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:45.840
<v Speaker 2>making money off that? It ain't them. They're going to

1029
00:59:45.920 --> 00:59:48.519
<v Speaker 2>be living this kind of life, working in workhouses their

1030
00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:54.559
<v Speaker 2>entire life unless something magical happens, some big intervention, and

1031
00:59:56.400 --> 01:00:04.760
<v Speaker 2>Scrooge is absolutely lampooning that idea that the meritocracy is real. Like, no,

1032
01:00:04.880 --> 01:00:08.599
<v Speaker 2>if you were born rich and you had all these advantages,

1033
01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:11.400
<v Speaker 2>then you can expect to be rich. But get out

1034
01:00:11.400 --> 01:00:15.320
<v Speaker 2>of here rich men thinking that all these poor people

1035
01:00:15.320 --> 01:00:18.320
<v Speaker 2>can just work really hard like I did. Like you

1036
01:00:18.360 --> 01:00:20.559
<v Speaker 2>mean at that private, fancy boarding school you went to

1037
01:00:20.800 --> 01:00:23.119
<v Speaker 2>and weren't in the workhouses that one. That's where you

1038
01:00:23.199 --> 01:00:25.800
<v Speaker 2>learned all these things from people your parents paid to

1039
01:00:25.880 --> 01:00:26.519
<v Speaker 2>teach them, do.

1040
01:00:26.519 --> 01:00:31.440
<v Speaker 1>You, And that's where he gets challenged values wise. I

1041
01:00:31.480 --> 01:00:34.840
<v Speaker 1>think with like being shown Bob Cratchett, right, is that

1042
01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:37.199
<v Speaker 1>that's also someone who works really hard, who works his

1043
01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:41.239
<v Speaker 1>fucking ass off, because Scrooge makes him work his ass off,

1044
01:00:41.719 --> 01:00:45.320
<v Speaker 1>and yet he lives in a shithole. He can't get

1045
01:00:45.360 --> 01:00:51.280
<v Speaker 1>his kid proper care that they are not doing well. Nope, financially,

1046
01:00:51.880 --> 01:00:55.360
<v Speaker 1>even though that guy is working his absolute ass off

1047
01:00:55.519 --> 01:00:59.440
<v Speaker 1>and really trying to be everything that Scrooge wants.

1048
01:01:00.440 --> 01:01:02.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he won't even pay for him to be warm

1049
01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:09.119
<v Speaker 2>at work, which means he's probable to get sick and

1050
01:01:09.199 --> 01:01:13.039
<v Speaker 2>die himself, and then his family will land in the poorhouse.

1051
01:01:13.800 --> 01:01:19.880
<v Speaker 2>It's really quite a pointed message of no, rich Man,

1052
01:01:19.960 --> 01:01:23.360
<v Speaker 2>it is not quite what you think. And yet people,

1053
01:01:23.639 --> 01:01:27.800
<v Speaker 2>I love that story, and yet again it's the fucking point.

1054
01:01:28.239 --> 01:01:32.000
<v Speaker 1>And it's very difficult to, like you were saying, challenge

1055
01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:34.920
<v Speaker 1>our values like we I mean, that's why I think

1056
01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:38.559
<v Speaker 1>in his story, he has like the most bananas experience

1057
01:01:38.719 --> 01:01:41.000
<v Speaker 1>where it really blows the doors off his brain right,

1058
01:01:41.039 --> 01:01:44.039
<v Speaker 1>like he's being visited by ghosts, Like even the introduction

1059
01:01:44.079 --> 01:01:48.280
<v Speaker 1>of Marley, I'm sure is trying to like soften his

1060
01:01:48.320 --> 01:01:51.960
<v Speaker 1>brain for the experience he's about to have, like we're

1061
01:01:51.960 --> 01:01:54.840
<v Speaker 1>going to crack this bitch open because it's about to.

1062
01:01:54.840 --> 01:01:56.559
<v Speaker 3>Get blown to smotherings.

1063
01:01:57.199 --> 01:02:01.000
<v Speaker 1>And so we do see people have big value shifts

1064
01:02:01.039 --> 01:02:03.639
<v Speaker 1>when something bananas happens in their lives, like in your

1065
01:02:03.679 --> 01:02:07.599
<v Speaker 1>death experience or a big loss of some sort, and

1066
01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:10.880
<v Speaker 1>they feel ready to challenge the idea that what they

1067
01:02:11.000 --> 01:02:14.719
<v Speaker 1>have been devoted to, the ideas that they've really cashed

1068
01:02:14.760 --> 01:02:21.079
<v Speaker 1>in on, maybe they're not really it. And that takes

1069
01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:26.639
<v Speaker 1>a lot of humility and introspection, like you really have

1070
01:02:26.719 --> 01:02:32.239
<v Speaker 1>to be willing to break down the way that you've lived.

1071
01:02:32.360 --> 01:02:35.679
<v Speaker 1>I mean, in the religious aspect, they call deconstructing. I

1072
01:02:35.719 --> 01:02:39.960
<v Speaker 1>think that term is from when people leave evangelical Christianity specifically,

1073
01:02:40.119 --> 01:02:43.400
<v Speaker 1>that's the way I've heard it be used, but I

1074
01:02:43.400 --> 01:02:46.760
<v Speaker 1>think it's an apt term, like you have to deconstruct

1075
01:02:48.079 --> 01:02:51.079
<v Speaker 1>yourself and your identity and what you believe to be

1076
01:02:51.119 --> 01:02:53.599
<v Speaker 1>true about the world from like the studs up perhaps,

1077
01:02:54.519 --> 01:02:56.360
<v Speaker 1>and he would have to do that, and that's a

1078
01:02:56.400 --> 01:02:58.880
<v Speaker 1>really hard thing for most people to do, and it's

1079
01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:00.679
<v Speaker 1>a very confronting thing to do.

1080
01:03:00.840 --> 01:03:04.719
<v Speaker 2>Even on a non religious and non values thing. Once

1081
01:03:04.760 --> 01:03:10.360
<v Speaker 2>you started talking about deconstruction, American history class started occurring

1082
01:03:10.360 --> 01:03:13.639
<v Speaker 2>in my head again, which you know, seems a little

1083
01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:16.599
<v Speaker 2>relevant right now as we talk about a British movie.

1084
01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:22.239
<v Speaker 2>But the post war period, for the Civil War, the reconstruction,

1085
01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:25.360
<v Speaker 2>the post Civil War period was called the reconstruction. And

1086
01:03:25.400 --> 01:03:28.280
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't called the reconstruction just because we were literally

1087
01:03:28.599 --> 01:03:34.840
<v Speaker 2>rebuilding things after the war. It was reconstructing the ideas

1088
01:03:35.639 --> 01:03:40.119
<v Speaker 2>and values of what our nation was to be because

1089
01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:44.519
<v Speaker 2>slavery was now ended. And yes, as from our you know,

1090
01:03:44.880 --> 01:03:46.840
<v Speaker 2>two movies ago, we did we know it got a

1091
01:03:46.880 --> 01:03:50.159
<v Speaker 2>little complicated and the change was a little resisted, and

1092
01:03:50.440 --> 01:03:52.519
<v Speaker 2>not just a little, a lot resisted, and a lot

1093
01:03:52.559 --> 01:03:55.639
<v Speaker 2>of horrible things still happened with Jim Crow laws and segregation.

1094
01:03:55.880 --> 01:04:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Things went through an intense period of revamping what the

1095
01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:02.400
<v Speaker 2>entire world is going to look like. And it took

1096
01:04:02.519 --> 01:04:05.679
<v Speaker 2>war to do that, to go like, hey, you can't

1097
01:04:05.840 --> 01:04:09.239
<v Speaker 2>keep slaves anymore. You just can't. Your economy cannot be

1098
01:04:09.239 --> 01:04:12.880
<v Speaker 2>based on that. We can't keep doing that. And the North,

1099
01:04:12.880 --> 01:04:15.000
<v Speaker 2>you're lying if you think you weren't benefiting because you

1100
01:04:15.039 --> 01:04:17.519
<v Speaker 2>were buying goods from the South, So like we're all

1101
01:04:17.599 --> 01:04:19.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of participating in and if we're not, well, slaver

1102
01:04:20.039 --> 01:04:21.599
<v Speaker 2>is not legal. And North you're still buying shit from

1103
01:04:21.599 --> 01:04:24.400
<v Speaker 2>the South. You're benefiting on that. And they had to

1104
01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:28.360
<v Speaker 2>recorrect all those values that were formed. People must go

1105
01:04:28.679 --> 01:04:33.719
<v Speaker 2>deconstruct and reconstruct. That's what happens during military training. That

1106
01:04:34.039 --> 01:04:36.519
<v Speaker 2>happens work training is what happens a lot of things.

1107
01:04:36.519 --> 01:04:39.280
<v Speaker 2>You have to go through periods where something big has

1108
01:04:39.280 --> 01:04:41.360
<v Speaker 2>to change in your life that forces you to confront

1109
01:04:41.400 --> 01:04:44.079
<v Speaker 2>the old habits, old beliefs, old ways of doing things

1110
01:04:44.440 --> 01:04:47.559
<v Speaker 2>and make them invalid and incompatible with the present way

1111
01:04:47.559 --> 01:04:50.480
<v Speaker 2>of living. And that's what happens to Scrooge is he's

1112
01:04:50.480 --> 01:04:52.960
<v Speaker 2>forced to deconstruct, Well, these are the ways we'd be safe.

1113
01:04:53.079 --> 01:04:54.880
<v Speaker 2>This is the way I keep black people locked out,

1114
01:04:54.880 --> 01:04:59.400
<v Speaker 2>and this is the way I'm actually better. And each

1115
01:04:59.760 --> 01:05:03.199
<v Speaker 2>moment we see if Scrooge's life makes us see that

1116
01:05:03.519 --> 01:05:06.639
<v Speaker 2>he's in fact lying to himself and he's miserable. He

1117
01:05:06.679 --> 01:05:10.039
<v Speaker 2>won't even give Bob enough coal to stay warm, and

1118
01:05:10.079 --> 01:05:13.000
<v Speaker 2>he won't even give himself enough light to see and

1119
01:05:13.079 --> 01:05:15.480
<v Speaker 2>read the books that he espouses to love, and he

1120
01:05:15.519 --> 01:05:19.639
<v Speaker 2>only leads work when's dark. What enrichment does he have?

1121
01:05:20.239 --> 01:05:21.800
<v Speaker 2>But would he ever have seen it that way had

1122
01:05:21.840 --> 01:05:26.119
<v Speaker 2>Spirits not come and gave him a transcendent experience?

1123
01:05:28.079 --> 01:05:35.960
<v Speaker 1>And for him, it's having that repeated confronting experience which

1124
01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:39.079
<v Speaker 1>sometimes we as therapist provide, unfortunately for our clients, but

1125
01:05:39.199 --> 01:05:45.719
<v Speaker 1>fortunately where it is shown to you that you actually

1126
01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:48.400
<v Speaker 1>do care about the things or value the things that

1127
01:05:48.440 --> 01:05:52.079
<v Speaker 1>you say that you don't. So he does care about

1128
01:05:52.119 --> 01:05:55.679
<v Speaker 1>what people say about him. He does care when they

1129
01:05:55.719 --> 01:06:00.400
<v Speaker 1>see both the moment where he gets made fun of

1130
01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:03.760
<v Speaker 1>at his nephews, but also that he cares when he

1131
01:06:03.800 --> 01:06:07.760
<v Speaker 1>gets spoken in a loving way at Bob Cratchett's house.

1132
01:06:08.360 --> 01:06:10.639
<v Speaker 1>And he cares a lot of I mean, he has

1133
01:06:10.679 --> 01:06:14.559
<v Speaker 1>like a full mental breakdown when he realizes that no

1134
01:06:14.599 --> 01:06:17.199
<v Speaker 1>one gives a shit at his funeral, that no one

1135
01:06:17.239 --> 01:06:19.559
<v Speaker 1>cares that he died. People are talking mad shit about him.

1136
01:06:19.599 --> 01:06:23.360
<v Speaker 1>They just want his stuff. And it's really challenging for

1137
01:06:23.480 --> 01:06:29.880
<v Speaker 1>him that you say you value money, finances, your capital,

1138
01:06:31.199 --> 01:06:34.159
<v Speaker 1>and yet when people after your death are only talking

1139
01:06:34.159 --> 01:06:37.440
<v Speaker 1>about your capital as what they care about with you,

1140
01:06:37.800 --> 01:06:40.920
<v Speaker 1>like those pigs saying like who gets his money? It

1141
01:06:40.960 --> 01:06:44.639
<v Speaker 1>doesn't feel good. It actually really upsets you. So be real,

1142
01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:47.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, in that moment, death without talking is saying,

1143
01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:52.159
<v Speaker 1>be real, you do care. And so what you're saying

1144
01:06:52.199 --> 01:06:55.920
<v Speaker 1>you value and what your actions are connecting to value

1145
01:06:55.920 --> 01:07:03.079
<v Speaker 1>wise isn't really hitting what you actually actually actually emotionally

1146
01:07:03.079 --> 01:07:03.559
<v Speaker 1>care about.

1147
01:07:04.599 --> 01:07:07.639
<v Speaker 2>It is not And it takes yeah, busting that wide

1148
01:07:07.679 --> 01:07:09.440
<v Speaker 2>open to go like this, this is actually what you

1149
01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:11.639
<v Speaker 2>care about, Like yeah, you notice he didn't have any

1150
01:07:11.719 --> 01:07:15.159
<v Speaker 2>reaction to he knew whose jewelry that was, he knew

1151
01:07:15.199 --> 01:07:19.119
<v Speaker 2>whose bed curtains those where he's just dissociating from it

1152
01:07:19.159 --> 01:07:22.440
<v Speaker 2>and likese he's overloaded, But he didn't show the strong

1153
01:07:22.480 --> 01:07:24.559
<v Speaker 2>reaction to that. He showed the strong reaction to being

1154
01:07:24.719 --> 01:07:32.320
<v Speaker 2>seen as disposable, not mattering, and the kiddie versions of

1155
01:07:32.440 --> 01:07:38.360
<v Speaker 2>this outside of mister Magoo's Christmas Carol really kind of

1156
01:07:38.480 --> 01:07:42.639
<v Speaker 2>gloss over the robbers, like this version like showed like

1157
01:07:42.679 --> 01:07:44.639
<v Speaker 2>the spider and the creepy things, but you get kind

1158
01:07:44.679 --> 01:07:47.119
<v Speaker 2>of caught up in that it's a creepy spider and

1159
01:07:47.199 --> 01:07:50.800
<v Speaker 2>those things. To really understand what's happening here is these

1160
01:07:50.840 --> 01:07:53.159
<v Speaker 2>are people that like go in and scavenged the houses

1161
01:07:53.239 --> 01:07:55.480
<v Speaker 2>of rich people that died when they think no one's looking,

1162
01:07:55.880 --> 01:07:58.239
<v Speaker 2>and they're really like scummy and gross, and they're breaking

1163
01:07:58.280 --> 01:08:00.480
<v Speaker 2>down his value into what trinkets they can steal that

1164
01:08:00.559 --> 01:08:06.519
<v Speaker 2>might be worth a dollar. Yikes, You're being scavenged by

1165
01:08:07.199 --> 01:08:12.159
<v Speaker 2>buzzards and crows. That's what the imagery is here. And

1166
01:08:12.920 --> 01:08:15.199
<v Speaker 2>him seeing that he didn't react, and he never does

1167
01:08:15.639 --> 01:08:17.840
<v Speaker 2>to his things. He's never like, those are my things,

1168
01:08:18.279 --> 01:08:23.239
<v Speaker 2>that's my thing. It pains him to see he's discarded,

1169
01:08:23.840 --> 01:08:26.079
<v Speaker 2>not that he has no more value, and that's I

1170
01:08:26.119 --> 01:08:28.439
<v Speaker 2>think where you start to see a real shift. But man,

1171
01:08:28.760 --> 01:08:30.319
<v Speaker 2>this movie kind of let him off the hook light.

1172
01:08:30.479 --> 01:08:33.279
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know if Mickey's Christmas Carolyn and cover

1173
01:08:33.399 --> 01:08:35.079
<v Speaker 2>that part, do they. Mister mcgoo's is the one that

1174
01:08:35.119 --> 01:08:38.720
<v Speaker 2>sticks out in my head most it's like I've never even.

1175
01:08:38.560 --> 01:08:43.239
<v Speaker 3>Heard of mister Chas either, no ever. I mean I

1176
01:08:43.319 --> 01:08:44.840
<v Speaker 3>know who mister is obviously.

1177
01:08:45.159 --> 01:08:45.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1178
01:08:45.520 --> 01:08:47.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, man, there's like a song from that because we

1179
01:08:47.800 --> 01:08:50.600
<v Speaker 2>watched that one a lot. There's like a song from

1180
01:08:50.640 --> 01:08:52.600
<v Speaker 2>that that sticks out of my head of him like

1181
01:08:52.680 --> 01:08:55.760
<v Speaker 2>singing about money ringle jingle coins out of they tingle.

1182
01:08:56.399 --> 01:09:01.600
<v Speaker 2>Oh how I love the sound and like the Burglar

1183
01:09:01.640 --> 01:09:06.239
<v Speaker 2>people basically sing another version of that song that really lands,

1184
01:09:06.279 --> 01:09:08.239
<v Speaker 2>but they're really creepy and gross, kind of like a

1185
01:09:08.319 --> 01:09:11.439
<v Speaker 2>master of the House kind of song like m And.

1186
01:09:11.520 --> 01:09:14.760
<v Speaker 1>If I was working with Ebenezer, Let's say in this hypothetical,

1187
01:09:15.399 --> 01:09:19.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm working with Ebenezer, he's had this experience. He comes

1188
01:09:19.039 --> 01:09:21.399
<v Speaker 1>and maybe hasn't changed yet, but he comes to my

1189
01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:24.840
<v Speaker 1>office and he's like, can you believe these people talking

1190
01:09:24.880 --> 01:09:27.000
<v Speaker 1>about me after my death and that they just wanted

1191
01:09:27.000 --> 01:09:28.159
<v Speaker 1>this thing that I have in this thing that I

1192
01:09:28.279 --> 01:09:32.479
<v Speaker 1>have and a strategy I could see me taking with

1193
01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:35.520
<v Speaker 1>someone like him is but isn't that what you But

1194
01:09:36.359 --> 01:09:36.960
<v Speaker 1>isn't that good?

1195
01:09:38.239 --> 01:09:41.079
<v Speaker 3>That's what you care about, right, Like, that's what you.

1196
01:09:42.560 --> 01:09:46.079
<v Speaker 1>Wanted to represent, is a bunch of stuff, and so

1197
01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:50.119
<v Speaker 1>you should feel good that that's what people care about,

1198
01:09:50.159 --> 01:09:51.680
<v Speaker 1>and that's what they want from you after your death.

1199
01:09:52.399 --> 01:09:53.920
<v Speaker 1>It's a bit of spitting in his soup, you know,

1200
01:09:54.359 --> 01:09:58.399
<v Speaker 1>kind of like leaning into his way of thinking as

1201
01:09:58.439 --> 01:10:00.560
<v Speaker 1>a way to challenge him, because then he would have

1202
01:10:00.680 --> 01:10:04.840
<v Speaker 1>to make the opposite argument to me in that back

1203
01:10:04.880 --> 01:10:08.560
<v Speaker 1>and forth, and that would have to require him challenging himself.

1204
01:10:08.960 --> 01:10:12.039
<v Speaker 1>Well no, I mean yeah, but I want them to like,

1205
01:10:12.119 --> 01:10:13.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, yeah, but you didn't say but you don't

1206
01:10:13.800 --> 01:10:16.720
<v Speaker 1>care about that, right, You're not fostering that. You don't

1207
01:10:16.720 --> 01:10:19.640
<v Speaker 1>care what people say about you. You don't care about

1208
01:10:20.079 --> 01:10:22.880
<v Speaker 1>having a good impression on people. That's not you, right,

1209
01:10:23.199 --> 01:10:27.399
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, And like I said, that's a technique that

1210
01:10:27.479 --> 01:10:29.239
<v Speaker 1>then puts.

1211
01:10:29.079 --> 01:10:30.640
<v Speaker 3>The ball back in your court as the client.

1212
01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:33.640
<v Speaker 1>You'd be like, oh, well, either I have to agree

1213
01:10:33.640 --> 01:10:36.159
<v Speaker 1>with what you're saying, which I don't want to, or

1214
01:10:36.279 --> 01:10:41.199
<v Speaker 1>I have to truly make an argument against my own

1215
01:10:42.079 --> 01:10:46.760
<v Speaker 1>verbalized beliefs. And that's why they say like bad therapists

1216
01:10:46.800 --> 01:10:49.119
<v Speaker 1>give advice, And what they mean by that in a

1217
01:10:49.159 --> 01:10:49.840
<v Speaker 1>lot of ways is.

1218
01:10:50.640 --> 01:10:53.039
<v Speaker 3>As a therapist, I'm not supposed to tell you the

1219
01:10:53.079 --> 01:10:53.600
<v Speaker 3>stuff like this.

1220
01:10:53.760 --> 01:10:57.359
<v Speaker 1>Necessarily, we ask you questions that then provoke you to

1221
01:10:57.520 --> 01:10:59.960
<v Speaker 1>tell yourself, which is harder to ignore.

1222
01:11:00.439 --> 01:11:03.279
<v Speaker 2>Right, and let you sit in it. A good therapist

1223
01:11:03.399 --> 01:11:06.640
<v Speaker 2>knows that exact moment when you get the aha, or

1224
01:11:06.720 --> 01:11:09.000
<v Speaker 2>you see someone's eyes going back and forth and then

1225
01:11:09.119 --> 01:11:13.760
<v Speaker 2>like changing their facial expression, their affecting Oh wait, you

1226
01:11:13.880 --> 01:11:21.000
<v Speaker 2>mean it's oh hah, that sucks. You learn to just

1227
01:11:21.159 --> 01:11:25.079
<v Speaker 2>go hmm, say nothing in those moments, let them sit

1228
01:11:25.119 --> 01:11:25.279
<v Speaker 2>in it.

1229
01:11:25.720 --> 01:11:29.319
<v Speaker 1>I think that that is a really helpful strategy to

1230
01:11:29.479 --> 01:11:35.439
<v Speaker 1>use with clients because them hearing it from themselves and

1231
01:11:35.600 --> 01:11:38.039
<v Speaker 1>experiencing it for themselves and being able to make that

1232
01:11:38.199 --> 01:11:42.079
<v Speaker 1>connection after we I'd let them sit in it or

1233
01:11:42.359 --> 01:11:45.199
<v Speaker 1>help them make that connection, right, because that's a big

1234
01:11:45.279 --> 01:11:48.439
<v Speaker 1>part of what we do. We help piece together the

1235
01:11:48.600 --> 01:11:53.039
<v Speaker 1>parts of the story that you don't can't always see

1236
01:11:53.119 --> 01:11:55.640
<v Speaker 1>clearly because you're the one who's in the story.

1237
01:11:56.399 --> 01:11:57.199
<v Speaker 3>And I think that.

1238
01:12:00.119 --> 01:12:02.840
<v Speaker 1>When I feel like I really see him change, and

1239
01:12:02.960 --> 01:12:05.520
<v Speaker 1>maybe it's just in this version, when I feel it,

1240
01:12:05.600 --> 01:12:07.479
<v Speaker 1>really feel like I see him changes when he's with

1241
01:12:07.840 --> 01:12:11.119
<v Speaker 1>the Ghost of Christmas Present, and that the Ghost of

1242
01:12:11.199 --> 01:12:13.199
<v Speaker 1>Christmas Present, which is the one that mostly you guys

1243
01:12:13.239 --> 01:12:15.720
<v Speaker 1>are talking about where he kind of gets to experience

1244
01:12:16.000 --> 01:12:19.399
<v Speaker 1>the love and the joy of Christmas with this one

1245
01:12:19.840 --> 01:12:23.840
<v Speaker 1>ghost who was really excited about Christmas and wants to

1246
01:12:23.920 --> 01:12:25.800
<v Speaker 1>celebrate and wants to show him all the beautiful things

1247
01:12:25.840 --> 01:12:28.119
<v Speaker 1>about it. And I feel like that's one of those

1248
01:12:28.199 --> 01:12:32.079
<v Speaker 1>parts where Ebenezer really feels like he's really like he

1249
01:12:32.159 --> 01:12:32.920
<v Speaker 1>really didn't know.

1250
01:12:33.800 --> 01:12:34.920
<v Speaker 3>What Christmas was about.

1251
01:12:35.239 --> 01:12:38.159
<v Speaker 1>He didn't really know what all that what all the

1252
01:12:38.239 --> 01:12:41.439
<v Speaker 1>big deal is about it, And so in this moment

1253
01:12:41.560 --> 01:12:43.840
<v Speaker 1>with where he's getting shown what it could be like,

1254
01:12:44.800 --> 01:12:47.479
<v Speaker 1>he actually gets a chance to realize that this could

1255
01:12:47.520 --> 01:12:50.960
<v Speaker 1>happen for him, this could be something that he could experience.

1256
01:12:51.439 --> 01:12:53.199
<v Speaker 1>And I feel like that's a part where I really

1257
01:12:53.319 --> 01:12:59.199
<v Speaker 1>notice him being more open and more flexible with this

1258
01:12:59.439 --> 01:13:01.000
<v Speaker 1>ghost versus the other ghost.

1259
01:13:01.319 --> 01:13:02.000
<v Speaker 3>I think it.

1260
01:13:02.199 --> 01:13:04.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it challenges this idea too of what do I

1261
01:13:04.800 --> 01:13:09.880
<v Speaker 1>actually want versus what am I engaging in behaviorally? And

1262
01:13:10.039 --> 01:13:13.119
<v Speaker 1>that's how I usually will do it with clients in

1263
01:13:13.680 --> 01:13:18.960
<v Speaker 1>normal therapy. Is like with Ebenezer and him being like,

1264
01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:20.359
<v Speaker 1>well I like that, and I like that, and I

1265
01:13:20.439 --> 01:13:22.239
<v Speaker 1>don't like that, and then I'll be like, okay, but

1266
01:13:22.319 --> 01:13:26.279
<v Speaker 1>but how is the way you're living behaviorally connecting to

1267
01:13:26.640 --> 01:13:30.920
<v Speaker 1>or going away from those values? And that's what you

1268
01:13:31.039 --> 01:13:34.279
<v Speaker 1>really have to take responsibility for a lot of times

1269
01:13:34.319 --> 01:13:37.119
<v Speaker 1>we do walk around in this life. I think Ebenezer's

1270
01:13:37.159 --> 01:13:39.399
<v Speaker 1>not a great example of this, actually, because he does

1271
01:13:39.479 --> 01:13:42.479
<v Speaker 1>have stated values and he is living by those values.

1272
01:13:42.560 --> 01:13:45.119
<v Speaker 3>In the version of him that we see for most

1273
01:13:45.119 --> 01:13:45.560
<v Speaker 3>of the movie.

1274
01:13:46.159 --> 01:13:48.680
<v Speaker 1>But I'd say with most people though that I work with,

1275
01:13:48.760 --> 01:13:51.680
<v Speaker 1>who we have these kind of discussions, they are saying

1276
01:13:51.760 --> 01:13:54.960
<v Speaker 1>one thing and doing another. Well, I really value my family,

1277
01:13:55.199 --> 01:13:59.039
<v Speaker 1>but I spend eighty two hundred hours a week at work. Well,

1278
01:13:59.079 --> 01:14:02.239
<v Speaker 1>then you don't value your family. You value work or

1279
01:14:02.359 --> 01:14:04.560
<v Speaker 1>money or whatever it is that you're getting out of

1280
01:14:04.600 --> 01:14:05.239
<v Speaker 1>that behavior.

1281
01:14:06.319 --> 01:14:08.359
<v Speaker 2>Or maybe that can jingle all the way. I'll be

1282
01:14:08.479 --> 01:14:10.479
<v Speaker 2>at your tournament, yeah, I'll see your karate.

1283
01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:12.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Or maybe that is how you value family.

1284
01:14:13.119 --> 01:14:15.399
<v Speaker 1>That's how you think you're valuing family by working a ton,

1285
01:14:16.159 --> 01:14:19.960
<v Speaker 1>But is that actually getting you closer to that thing

1286
01:14:20.079 --> 01:14:22.000
<v Speaker 1>that you're wanting or what even that means to you.

1287
01:14:23.439 --> 01:14:24.720
<v Speaker 3>And one of the ways that I work.

1288
01:14:24.600 --> 01:14:27.560
<v Speaker 1>With clients about values is even just helping people have

1289
01:14:27.680 --> 01:14:31.920
<v Speaker 1>awareness of the values they're actually holding is so helpful

1290
01:14:32.039 --> 01:14:36.800
<v Speaker 1>because so often people are completely unaware that there have

1291
01:14:36.960 --> 01:14:39.600
<v Speaker 1>that awareness of oh, I'm working eighty two one hundred hours.

1292
01:14:39.840 --> 01:14:42.640
<v Speaker 1>I really don't value my family, like people don't have

1293
01:14:42.720 --> 01:14:45.960
<v Speaker 1>any awareness about the things that they value because they

1294
01:14:46.159 --> 01:14:48.680
<v Speaker 1>either go by what they've been told by their family,

1295
01:14:49.199 --> 01:14:52.199
<v Speaker 1>they go by what society is telling them. But they

1296
01:14:52.319 --> 01:14:55.199
<v Speaker 1>don't really have a buy in to the values that

1297
01:14:55.319 --> 01:14:58.600
<v Speaker 1>they should be connected to because they're behaving around all

1298
01:14:58.680 --> 01:15:02.880
<v Speaker 1>these values in reaction. So I feel like values is

1299
01:15:02.920 --> 01:15:05.720
<v Speaker 1>a place where I'll walk in to help somebody figure

1300
01:15:05.720 --> 01:15:07.800
<v Speaker 1>out what they want to do, if they want to

1301
01:15:07.920 --> 01:15:11.520
<v Speaker 1>change their career path, if they want to do something different,

1302
01:15:11.640 --> 01:15:14.880
<v Speaker 1>we do Values work to help them have some insight

1303
01:15:15.199 --> 01:15:18.319
<v Speaker 1>into the things that they actually give a fuck about

1304
01:15:18.720 --> 01:15:20.640
<v Speaker 1>versus the things that they were told to give a

1305
01:15:20.720 --> 01:15:21.159
<v Speaker 1>fuck about.

1306
01:15:21.319 --> 01:15:24.600
<v Speaker 2>Values is powerful, and it embeds early, and it's yet

1307
01:15:24.600 --> 01:15:28.079
<v Speaker 2>another idea that we reject that yet again, there are

1308
01:15:29.199 --> 01:15:32.680
<v Speaker 2>ancient wisdom, or there is ancient wisdom about it, including

1309
01:15:32.760 --> 01:15:36.119
<v Speaker 2>one that was mentioned in this book or in this movie.

1310
01:15:36.560 --> 01:15:41.399
<v Speaker 2>They showed the head of Aristotle and Plato's The Republic

1311
01:15:41.520 --> 01:15:45.720
<v Speaker 2>is Teachings from Aristotle where they cover this idea of

1312
01:15:45.800 --> 01:15:49.479
<v Speaker 2>like values formation. In order to really reform of society,

1313
01:15:50.399 --> 01:15:53.199
<v Speaker 2>you'd essentially have to make sure everyone is given the

1314
01:15:53.279 --> 01:15:55.880
<v Speaker 2>same set of values, Otherwise the values that come from

1315
01:15:55.920 --> 01:15:58.800
<v Speaker 2>their family are going to conflict with whatever values the

1316
01:15:58.880 --> 01:16:03.880
<v Speaker 2>republic needs to function ideally. And we've known that for

1317
01:16:04.720 --> 01:16:07.920
<v Speaker 2>two thousand years, and people still struggle with these concepts

1318
01:16:07.960 --> 01:16:10.600
<v Speaker 2>that we're talking about right now, like, well, I mean

1319
01:16:10.680 --> 01:16:14.760
<v Speaker 2>values are easy to change, No they're not. It takes

1320
01:16:14.960 --> 01:16:17.600
<v Speaker 2>quite the existential experience sometimes and sometimes not.

1321
01:16:17.680 --> 01:16:20.600
<v Speaker 1>Even then, I do this whole thing where I have

1322
01:16:20.680 --> 01:16:23.560
<v Speaker 1>this exercise that has twenty five values on it, and

1323
01:16:23.640 --> 01:16:25.439
<v Speaker 1>then we go through. They have to go through to

1324
01:16:25.520 --> 01:16:29.960
<v Speaker 1>decide quite important, very important, not important, don't give a shit.

1325
01:16:29.800 --> 01:16:31.000
<v Speaker 2>About and so.

1326
01:16:31.560 --> 01:16:34.279
<v Speaker 1>And once they do that, we come back to see

1327
01:16:34.359 --> 01:16:36.680
<v Speaker 1>what percentage of time do you want to be focusing

1328
01:16:36.720 --> 01:16:40.359
<v Speaker 1>on this value? So how often do you want to

1329
01:16:40.399 --> 01:16:42.720
<v Speaker 1>be focusing on this? And then we break it down

1330
01:16:42.760 --> 01:16:44.600
<v Speaker 1>to see, well, I want to be doing this once

1331
01:16:44.640 --> 01:16:47.119
<v Speaker 1>a week, I want to be doing this once a month, whatever.

1332
01:16:47.560 --> 01:16:49.279
<v Speaker 3>And so that's how I help them.

1333
01:16:49.720 --> 01:16:53.560
<v Speaker 1>Shift their behaviors towards their values by figuring out what

1334
01:16:53.760 --> 01:16:55.800
<v Speaker 1>percent of the time do you want to be engaging

1335
01:16:55.880 --> 01:17:00.119
<v Speaker 1>in this because right now it's like two percent, and

1336
01:17:00.239 --> 01:17:02.239
<v Speaker 1>you want it to be at ten. We got to

1337
01:17:02.279 --> 01:17:04.479
<v Speaker 1>get eight percent up in order to get to where

1338
01:17:04.520 --> 01:17:05.560
<v Speaker 1>you actually want it to be.

1339
01:17:06.239 --> 01:17:07.359
<v Speaker 3>And so I feel like with.

1340
01:17:09.039 --> 01:17:12.000
<v Speaker 1>Ebenezer, kind of getting all of his values shook around

1341
01:17:13.239 --> 01:17:16.119
<v Speaker 1>while he's going through this experience, I think that would

1342
01:17:16.119 --> 01:17:17.920
<v Speaker 1>definitely be something that I would want to do with

1343
01:17:18.039 --> 01:17:22.119
<v Speaker 1>him in treatment to continue helping him. Well, we are

1344
01:17:22.239 --> 01:17:26.000
<v Speaker 1>kind of sliding into treatment talk, so before we take

1345
01:17:26.039 --> 01:17:29.159
<v Speaker 1>a break and get into that more, is there anything

1346
01:17:29.199 --> 01:17:33.079
<v Speaker 1>else specifically about values we want to mention? I think

1347
01:17:33.119 --> 01:17:36.600
<v Speaker 1>the only thing I'd want to add specific to Ebenezer

1348
01:17:36.960 --> 01:17:39.680
<v Speaker 1>or someone like Ebenezer is also when you get into

1349
01:17:39.760 --> 01:17:44.000
<v Speaker 1>values work with clients, it's like is this a value?

1350
01:17:44.199 --> 01:17:48.439
<v Speaker 1>Or is this a survival mechanism? Is this a trauma response?

1351
01:17:48.680 --> 01:17:50.920
<v Speaker 1>Is it all of those things? And so for him,

1352
01:17:50.960 --> 01:17:53.399
<v Speaker 1>I don't think it would be as easy either as

1353
01:17:54.439 --> 01:17:55.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't like that I'm caring about this, I don't

1354
01:17:55.960 --> 01:18:00.359
<v Speaker 1>care about this. Instead, I think he'd also have tous

1355
01:18:01.479 --> 01:18:04.199
<v Speaker 1>discernment around like is this something?

1356
01:18:04.359 --> 01:18:07.039
<v Speaker 3>Is this a value? Or is this me trying to

1357
01:18:07.159 --> 01:18:08.000
<v Speaker 3>protect myself?

1358
01:18:08.279 --> 01:18:11.319
<v Speaker 1>I think with him, a lot of this miserly behavior

1359
01:18:12.600 --> 01:18:16.000
<v Speaker 1>is a trauma response reaction, and so he'd have to

1360
01:18:16.079 --> 01:18:19.880
<v Speaker 1>be able to tell the difference. And once we kind

1361
01:18:19.920 --> 01:18:23.359
<v Speaker 1>of identify how much of this stuff as survival strategies,

1362
01:18:24.239 --> 01:18:27.640
<v Speaker 1>what's left, how much of that is actual genuine values

1363
01:18:28.720 --> 01:18:31.279
<v Speaker 1>versus safety responses.

1364
01:18:31.560 --> 01:18:36.039
<v Speaker 2>And IFS language right would be firefighters show up to

1365
01:18:36.600 --> 01:18:41.079
<v Speaker 2>kind of be the protectors, right managers who are like

1366
01:18:41.199 --> 01:18:45.880
<v Speaker 2>the parts we keep to keep everything, and exiles are

1367
01:18:45.920 --> 01:18:51.119
<v Speaker 2>the parts of ourselves that we try to help keep

1368
01:18:51.239 --> 01:18:54.800
<v Speaker 2>under reps and don't let anybody see because there's things

1369
01:18:54.840 --> 01:18:58.600
<v Speaker 2>in there that no, no, no no. It's where the

1370
01:18:58.680 --> 01:19:01.079
<v Speaker 2>wounds are, It's where the the shame is, where the

1371
01:19:01.119 --> 01:19:04.159
<v Speaker 2>guilt is. So understanding how those three kind of work

1372
01:19:04.159 --> 01:19:07.359
<v Speaker 2>together kind of like as signs a different language to

1373
01:19:07.399 --> 01:19:09.239
<v Speaker 2>the idea you're a sign you're talking about here. That's

1374
01:19:09.640 --> 01:19:15.880
<v Speaker 2>IFS language is real specific on self managers, firefighters, and exiles.

1375
01:19:16.800 --> 01:19:20.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I'm not trained in IFS, and I do

1376
01:19:21.359 --> 01:19:23.119
<v Speaker 1>what I like about what I have learned so far

1377
01:19:23.159 --> 01:19:26.399
<v Speaker 1>about IFS is like that differentiation and how that can

1378
01:19:26.520 --> 01:19:31.840
<v Speaker 1>help even do what I'm talking about for Ebeneezer, which

1379
01:19:31.920 --> 01:19:35.039
<v Speaker 1>is like what's what in why you move the way

1380
01:19:35.119 --> 01:19:39.119
<v Speaker 1>you move and identifying mats. You can have some separation,

1381
01:19:39.279 --> 01:19:42.159
<v Speaker 1>and then I assume you can correct me. I think, Canna,

1382
01:19:42.239 --> 01:19:45.079
<v Speaker 1>you've been teaching yourself a lot of ifs, but like

1383
01:19:45.159 --> 01:19:51.159
<v Speaker 1>yourself is probably more of where your like genuine values live. Yeah,

1384
01:19:51.239 --> 01:19:54.000
<v Speaker 1>I would say, I would say in some ways, yeah,

1385
01:19:54.439 --> 01:19:59.840
<v Speaker 1>the self is where we hold There's these eight C words,

1386
01:20:00.680 --> 01:20:04.199
<v Speaker 1>of course, because it's therapy and because somebody had to

1387
01:20:04.239 --> 01:20:13.159
<v Speaker 1>come up with it, right, So it's you're connected to clarity, creativity, curiosity, courage.

1388
01:20:14.880 --> 01:20:17.479
<v Speaker 1>I can usually remember a couple I haven't written on

1389
01:20:17.520 --> 01:20:19.720
<v Speaker 1>a note on my desk. Do you remember the rest ben.

1390
01:20:20.359 --> 01:20:21.640
<v Speaker 2>Not off the top of my head.

1391
01:20:21.720 --> 01:20:22.560
<v Speaker 1>But the.

1392
01:20:24.239 --> 01:20:30.119
<v Speaker 2>Dick Schwartz Cward things don't mean you know. What they're

1393
01:20:30.159 --> 01:20:35.319
<v Speaker 2>all about is about flexibility. They're about adaptability, flexibility and

1394
01:20:35.680 --> 01:20:40.039
<v Speaker 2>trusting yourself and the ability to respond with all that

1395
01:20:40.119 --> 01:20:46.479
<v Speaker 2>you are comfortably versus when you're firefighter is on. That's

1396
01:20:46.520 --> 01:20:50.159
<v Speaker 2>a real limited, inflexible part that shows up to keep

1397
01:20:50.199 --> 01:20:51.840
<v Speaker 2>you safe and it's going to do whatever it has

1398
01:20:51.880 --> 01:20:53.880
<v Speaker 2>to do to peth the fire. It's not going to

1399
01:20:54.600 --> 01:20:58.239
<v Speaker 2>respond with creativity, compassion, any of those things like well

1400
01:20:58.399 --> 01:21:00.119
<v Speaker 2>maybe we can use a little bit of this and

1401
01:21:00.159 --> 01:21:01.600
<v Speaker 2>a little bit of that and maybe a little bit

1402
01:21:01.640 --> 01:21:04.680
<v Speaker 2>over here without having to show up with we are

1403
01:21:04.800 --> 01:21:07.039
<v Speaker 2>doing this right now, and that is it, because that

1404
01:21:07.239 --> 01:21:09.640
<v Speaker 2>is all that we do. And when you look at

1405
01:21:09.800 --> 01:21:16.319
<v Speaker 2>Ebenezer the you see him become all the sward functions

1406
01:21:16.520 --> 01:21:18.640
<v Speaker 2>when he's buying the turkey and he's allowing himself to laugh.

1407
01:21:18.680 --> 01:21:23.039
<v Speaker 2>He's kind of responding flexibly to everything that happens within

1408
01:21:23.159 --> 01:21:26.720
<v Speaker 2>this devices. But it's very different that you feel that

1409
01:21:26.840 --> 01:21:29.960
<v Speaker 2>firefighter step in when they're like like, oh, look and

1410
01:21:30.079 --> 01:21:32.760
<v Speaker 2>here's you at school. Nope, that made me the man

1411
01:21:32.800 --> 01:21:34.840
<v Speaker 2>I am today. We won't be looking at that any further,

1412
01:21:34.920 --> 01:21:38.079
<v Speaker 2>thank you, boop boop, because that's an exile that lives there,

1413
01:21:38.079 --> 01:21:40.600
<v Speaker 2>and the firefighters start to protect the exile, Whereas the

1414
01:21:40.600 --> 01:21:43.680
<v Speaker 2>self could look at that in a balance way like oh, well, yeah,

1415
01:21:43.720 --> 01:21:45.199
<v Speaker 2>that was painful, but I learned some stuff from that,

1416
01:21:45.760 --> 01:21:47.399
<v Speaker 2>and I don't want to repeat it, but like I

1417
01:21:47.520 --> 01:21:49.199
<v Speaker 2>learned about it what I should do and not do.

1418
01:21:50.039 --> 01:21:51.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's take a break here and move right back

1419
01:21:51.720 --> 01:21:56.279
<v Speaker 1>with treatment. So this is you know, we've only been

1420
01:21:56.319 --> 01:22:00.279
<v Speaker 1>talking about one person, so a treatment. We've kind of

1421
01:22:00.319 --> 01:22:03.199
<v Speaker 1>already been talking about what we would do with Ebeneezer,

1422
01:22:03.720 --> 01:22:07.840
<v Speaker 1>and I think something we have started alluding to is

1423
01:22:08.960 --> 01:22:12.880
<v Speaker 1>he has gone through this great intervention, this divine intervention,

1424
01:22:13.239 --> 01:22:17.279
<v Speaker 1>but in real life, I would be curious, like once

1425
01:22:17.399 --> 01:22:22.800
<v Speaker 1>the euphoria wears off of the experience, he's going to

1426
01:22:22.920 --> 01:22:26.760
<v Speaker 1>start to have to actively practice and so sometimes with clients.

1427
01:22:26.800 --> 01:22:31.960
<v Speaker 1>And this is more of like an acceptance equipment therapy technique.

1428
01:22:31.600 --> 01:22:32.680
<v Speaker 3>That involves a lot of values.

1429
01:22:32.720 --> 01:22:38.039
<v Speaker 1>Work is just like mapping out our values and using

1430
01:22:38.119 --> 01:22:42.079
<v Speaker 1>that as like a guiding star in different situations, like

1431
01:22:42.159 --> 01:22:44.840
<v Speaker 1>if I do this instead of that, is that aligning

1432
01:22:44.880 --> 01:22:46.880
<v Speaker 1>with my value or is it going against my value?

1433
01:22:47.119 --> 01:22:50.199
<v Speaker 1>As a way to stay ground in these situations where

1434
01:22:50.520 --> 01:22:55.199
<v Speaker 1>it might be hard to intellectualize that in the moment, I.

1435
01:22:55.199 --> 01:22:59.079
<v Speaker 2>Think working through these kinds of things with Scrooge is

1436
01:22:59.159 --> 01:23:03.680
<v Speaker 2>really challenge because he's going to need reinforcement of these

1437
01:23:03.720 --> 01:23:06.640
<v Speaker 2>new behaviors. Otherwise it's going to be real easy. Like

1438
01:23:06.760 --> 01:23:10.039
<v Speaker 2>you said, once the ephorio wears off, like this is

1439
01:23:10.079 --> 01:23:12.920
<v Speaker 2>going to have to become internalized to become a new value.

1440
01:23:13.479 --> 01:23:17.319
<v Speaker 2>If we don't internalize this as a new value, he's

1441
01:23:17.359 --> 01:23:19.680
<v Speaker 2>going to convince himself that he did. He either did

1442
01:23:19.840 --> 01:23:22.760
<v Speaker 2>enough as it is, and he doesn't need to repeat

1443
01:23:22.800 --> 01:23:24.680
<v Speaker 2>it like well, I mean I raise scratch its salary

1444
01:23:24.720 --> 01:23:26.720
<v Speaker 2>and like I say, merry Christmas now, so we're good.

1445
01:23:28.039 --> 01:23:29.319
<v Speaker 3>Well, yeah, because it's work.

1446
01:23:29.159 --> 01:23:32.279
<v Speaker 1>To do it differently, especially no offense to him at

1447
01:23:32.319 --> 01:23:36.479
<v Speaker 1>his age, he's going to really have to actively do

1448
01:23:36.680 --> 01:23:40.920
<v Speaker 1>things differently, Like he cannot go back on autopilot for

1449
01:23:41.199 --> 01:23:43.239
<v Speaker 1>maybe the rest of his life given his age. Like

1450
01:23:43.399 --> 01:23:46.560
<v Speaker 1>every choice he's making now has to be a thoughtful one.

1451
01:23:47.279 --> 01:23:50.479
<v Speaker 2>He must be mindfully engaged to do things different much

1452
01:23:50.560 --> 01:23:53.079
<v Speaker 2>like people who are choosing to live a sober life.

1453
01:23:53.560 --> 01:23:56.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh for sure, that's what they have, Like even the

1454
01:23:56.279 --> 01:23:59.479
<v Speaker 1>Sertinity prayer is that something they have to do to

1455
01:23:59.600 --> 01:24:02.680
<v Speaker 1>practice that intentionality, Like it's always on their mind. That's

1456
01:24:02.680 --> 01:24:04.880
<v Speaker 1>why there's so much constant work with that. It's a

1457
01:24:04.920 --> 01:24:06.039
<v Speaker 1>great comparison.

1458
01:24:06.439 --> 01:24:08.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, and why the most core value of it is

1459
01:24:08.800 --> 01:24:09.520
<v Speaker 2>one day at a time.

1460
01:24:10.079 --> 01:24:10.760
<v Speaker 3>Mmmmmm.

1461
01:24:11.479 --> 01:24:15.439
<v Speaker 2>Scrooge is going to change one day at a time.

1462
01:24:15.600 --> 01:24:19.920
<v Speaker 2>We see him in this fantastical moment where a writer

1463
01:24:20.279 --> 01:24:24.880
<v Speaker 2>living in Victorian England through the Industrial Revolution was like, hey,

1464
01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:28.439
<v Speaker 2>rich people, you need do we need to scare the

1465
01:24:28.479 --> 01:24:30.119
<v Speaker 2>shit out of you to get you to change? What's

1466
01:24:30.199 --> 01:24:31.920
<v Speaker 2>what gives? What is it that's going to get you

1467
01:24:32.000 --> 01:24:34.239
<v Speaker 2>to see the reality that the rest of us see

1468
01:24:34.319 --> 01:24:37.960
<v Speaker 2>that children are working in workhouses. People are being taken

1469
01:24:38.000 --> 01:24:40.319
<v Speaker 2>advantage of, and there's halves and haves nots, and it's

1470
01:24:40.640 --> 01:24:44.479
<v Speaker 2>not this like glorious time for England where everyone is

1471
01:24:44.520 --> 01:24:46.800
<v Speaker 2>great and England is the greatest country. It's great for

1472
01:24:46.920 --> 01:24:50.439
<v Speaker 2>some of us. For others, it really sucks and maybe

1473
01:24:50.439 --> 01:24:52.159
<v Speaker 2>you need to wake the fuck up so you see

1474
01:24:52.199 --> 01:24:55.399
<v Speaker 2>it kind of energy is what you know book is about.

1475
01:24:55.479 --> 01:24:57.840
<v Speaker 2>And like the actual writing of it, which I think

1476
01:24:57.880 --> 01:24:59.840
<v Speaker 2>I've only seen done really in the George she Scott

1477
01:25:00.439 --> 01:25:04.159
<v Speaker 2>is like the ghost of Christmas Present goes hard at

1478
01:25:04.199 --> 01:25:07.079
<v Speaker 2>Scrooge and like showing him like the like these are

1479
01:25:07.159 --> 01:25:09.159
<v Speaker 2>your children that come out from his legs, and like

1480
01:25:09.159 --> 01:25:13.680
<v Speaker 2>they're like struggle in something that it's really pointed of

1481
01:25:14.600 --> 01:25:20.079
<v Speaker 2>pointing out the things you are doing are producing their nakedness,

1482
01:25:20.640 --> 01:25:26.319
<v Speaker 2>their fear, their pain, and you must stop. This bit

1483
01:25:26.399 --> 01:25:32.279
<v Speaker 2>of happiness you'll see won't exist. And it's a harder

1484
01:25:32.439 --> 01:25:34.439
<v Speaker 2>version than we usually see because normally the Ghost of

1485
01:25:34.520 --> 01:25:37.640
<v Speaker 2>Christmas Present is kept kind of jolly and happy. Every

1486
01:25:37.880 --> 01:25:39.560
<v Speaker 2>so often you see a version that goes a little

1487
01:25:39.600 --> 01:25:42.800
<v Speaker 2>more true to the book and goes hard. I think

1488
01:25:43.399 --> 01:25:47.119
<v Speaker 2>reinforcing all of this and closing off all the dissociation

1489
01:25:47.359 --> 01:25:52.640
<v Speaker 2>to all of that societal misery that Scrooge has been

1490
01:25:53.520 --> 01:25:57.399
<v Speaker 2>gleefully ignoring so he can fill his coffers and put

1491
01:25:57.439 --> 01:25:59.560
<v Speaker 2>in his little ledgers that look, I made more money

1492
01:25:59.600 --> 01:26:05.000
<v Speaker 2>today then, so I'm not failing. Helping him to hold

1493
01:26:05.039 --> 01:26:09.359
<v Speaker 2>this behavior is going to take mindfully staying present in

1494
01:26:10.199 --> 01:26:14.439
<v Speaker 2>how much he's been hoarding, how much he really holds

1495
01:26:14.479 --> 01:26:16.640
<v Speaker 2>onto and how little other people have, and how much

1496
01:26:17.239 --> 01:26:22.039
<v Speaker 2>This balance shift that he's supposed to represent could produce

1497
01:26:22.199 --> 01:26:25.439
<v Speaker 2>meaningful change if he adheres to it, and that could

1498
01:26:26.159 --> 01:26:28.319
<v Speaker 2>allow him to find this place of love and opening

1499
01:26:28.399 --> 01:26:32.840
<v Speaker 2>his heart and wallet for him, because it's the same thing,

1500
01:26:33.840 --> 01:26:36.079
<v Speaker 2>is going to have to be both components of This

1501
01:26:37.119 --> 01:26:39.000
<v Speaker 2>is going to take him a lot of work to

1502
01:26:39.239 --> 01:26:43.760
<v Speaker 2>undo that value formation we talked about earlier that he

1503
01:26:43.960 --> 01:26:48.880
<v Speaker 2>needs to be the richest and most closed off because

1504
01:26:48.880 --> 01:26:51.119
<v Speaker 2>he's going to start feeling unsafe really quick in actuality.

1505
01:26:51.640 --> 01:26:53.279
<v Speaker 2>As soon as he lets that guard down, he's going

1506
01:26:53.359 --> 01:26:55.479
<v Speaker 2>to feel unsafe, and that pullback like you mentioned with

1507
01:26:55.760 --> 01:26:59.039
<v Speaker 2>happening with kids with red who are about to be adopted,

1508
01:26:59.560 --> 01:27:02.800
<v Speaker 2>All that testing is about to need to happen, and

1509
01:27:02.880 --> 01:27:05.680
<v Speaker 2>he's he might have one day where we see this

1510
01:27:05.880 --> 01:27:08.760
<v Speaker 2>glorious turnaround. But the other days he is going to

1511
01:27:08.800 --> 01:27:10.640
<v Speaker 2>be looking at his ledger with like you spent how

1512
01:27:10.720 --> 01:27:14.840
<v Speaker 2>much on that turkey that prize turkey that you ate

1513
01:27:14.960 --> 01:27:18.560
<v Speaker 2>like four bites of how much did you spend? And

1514
01:27:18.640 --> 01:27:20.239
<v Speaker 2>he's going to get uncomfortable with it and he's going

1515
01:27:20.279 --> 01:27:22.000
<v Speaker 2>to struggle, and what he's going to need is support

1516
01:27:22.079 --> 01:27:26.760
<v Speaker 2>through existential therapy that's helping him connect to meaning of

1517
01:27:27.279 --> 01:27:30.520
<v Speaker 2>why are you doing this? What change are you trying

1518
01:27:30.560 --> 01:27:32.640
<v Speaker 2>to create? What purpose are you trying to live? Who

1519
01:27:33.239 --> 01:27:37.720
<v Speaker 2>are you? And there's a line that's mentioned over and

1520
01:27:37.840 --> 01:27:40.600
<v Speaker 2>over in this one and some of the others about

1521
01:27:40.640 --> 01:27:45.079
<v Speaker 2>living in past, as and future simultaneously. This is what

1522
01:27:45.159 --> 01:27:47.159
<v Speaker 2>we try to do in EMDR. There's three prongs if

1523
01:27:47.199 --> 01:27:50.399
<v Speaker 2>EMDR Past, Present, future, and you have to do treatment

1524
01:27:50.520 --> 01:27:54.600
<v Speaker 2>in each one of those things. You repair the holes

1525
01:27:54.640 --> 01:27:58.800
<v Speaker 2>in the past to deactivate the response in the future

1526
01:27:59.319 --> 01:28:02.479
<v Speaker 2>and make them believe that they can continue to do

1527
01:28:02.680 --> 01:28:08.760
<v Speaker 2>so through their future self. That is what needs to

1528
01:28:08.840 --> 01:28:12.000
<v Speaker 2>happen for Scrooge, and that's kind of what this film

1529
01:28:12.079 --> 01:28:14.800
<v Speaker 2>sets up, is he will live in past, present, and

1530
01:28:14.960 --> 01:28:18.520
<v Speaker 2>future as in understanding where my wounds are, how to

1531
01:28:18.600 --> 01:28:22.319
<v Speaker 2>avoid repeating them and how to become the man I

1532
01:28:22.439 --> 01:28:25.239
<v Speaker 2>want to be and make positive change in this world.

1533
01:28:25.720 --> 01:28:28.000
<v Speaker 2>So I think for Scrooge there's kind of a blend

1534
01:28:28.199 --> 01:28:36.039
<v Speaker 2>of incorporating some of the AA change policies and philosophy

1535
01:28:36.119 --> 01:28:39.119
<v Speaker 2>and also working with him on the meaning behind the

1536
01:28:39.239 --> 01:28:41.399
<v Speaker 2>changes he's being asked to do. The discomfort he's asking

1537
01:28:41.479 --> 01:28:44.439
<v Speaker 2>himself to feel as assigning a new value to that

1538
01:28:44.760 --> 01:28:48.560
<v Speaker 2>that makes it worth it to deal with the profound

1539
01:28:48.680 --> 01:28:51.880
<v Speaker 2>discomfort he's going to go through making those changes.

1540
01:28:53.039 --> 01:28:56.840
<v Speaker 1>So a part of what I would want to do

1541
01:28:56.920 --> 01:29:01.680
<v Speaker 1>with Ebeneezer, because like you've both said, one day of

1542
01:29:02.039 --> 01:29:08.159
<v Speaker 1>excitement does not heal a lifetime's worth of experiences. So

1543
01:29:08.720 --> 01:29:11.680
<v Speaker 1>and healing trauma with clients, which is what you would

1544
01:29:11.680 --> 01:29:16.079
<v Speaker 1>be doing with Eupen easier, takes time, and it takes

1545
01:29:16.159 --> 01:29:20.239
<v Speaker 1>time for lots of different reasons. And it's something that

1546
01:29:21.640 --> 01:29:24.000
<v Speaker 1>I try to talk to my clients about because everybody

1547
01:29:24.039 --> 01:29:25.439
<v Speaker 1>wants to know when are they going to feel better?

1548
01:29:26.039 --> 01:29:26.159
<v Speaker 2>Right?

1549
01:29:26.239 --> 01:29:27.960
<v Speaker 1>When am I going to feel better? When am I

1550
01:29:28.000 --> 01:29:30.119
<v Speaker 1>going to stop having these thoughts? When am I going

1551
01:29:30.159 --> 01:29:33.000
<v Speaker 1>to be stopped being afraid of taking risks?

1552
01:29:33.520 --> 01:29:34.159
<v Speaker 3>When?

1553
01:29:34.239 --> 01:29:38.159
<v Speaker 1>When? When? Right? And I think that something that I

1554
01:29:38.239 --> 01:29:41.119
<v Speaker 1>want to point out is that it takes time, and

1555
01:29:41.239 --> 01:29:44.560
<v Speaker 1>a big part of that is, first we have to

1556
01:29:44.720 --> 01:29:48.439
<v Speaker 1>establish the trust between you and I, and that trust

1557
01:29:48.479 --> 01:29:50.000
<v Speaker 1>between you and I is going to take a little

1558
01:29:50.039 --> 01:29:53.680
<v Speaker 1>bit of time, especially if you've had attachment wounds, right,

1559
01:29:54.439 --> 01:29:57.439
<v Speaker 1>and so first you have to trust me, and then

1560
01:29:57.479 --> 01:30:00.479
<v Speaker 1>I have to help you trust yourself. That's a big

1561
01:30:00.600 --> 01:30:05.000
<v Speaker 1>part of what Ebenezer will need in order to get

1562
01:30:05.239 --> 01:30:08.520
<v Speaker 1>to the work that Ben and Brittany are talking about.

1563
01:30:09.840 --> 01:30:12.079
<v Speaker 1>And so that's just something that I wanted to point out.

1564
01:30:12.119 --> 01:30:14.439
<v Speaker 1>But other than that, I think what you've both suggested

1565
01:30:14.479 --> 01:30:16.960
<v Speaker 1>make a lot of sense. And he's definitely gonna need

1566
01:30:17.159 --> 01:30:20.720
<v Speaker 1>more work because throwing money at the problem is essentially

1567
01:30:20.800 --> 01:30:23.800
<v Speaker 1>what he did, and while it may feel very meaningful

1568
01:30:23.960 --> 01:30:28.439
<v Speaker 1>and very important, it doesn't didn't necessarily make for him

1569
01:30:28.560 --> 01:30:31.760
<v Speaker 1>having to create a new narrative for himself where he

1570
01:30:31.840 --> 01:30:34.560
<v Speaker 1>could be a different person. Well, there's a whole like

1571
01:30:35.560 --> 01:30:40.079
<v Speaker 1>category of social skills that he's never developed. Yeah, like

1572
01:30:40.199 --> 01:30:41.920
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't like that would be a lot of the

1573
01:30:41.960 --> 01:30:45.760
<v Speaker 1>work too, is how do I initiate.

1574
01:30:47.520 --> 01:30:51.920
<v Speaker 3>Whatever, how a bid for connection? Yes, which is right?

1575
01:30:52.199 --> 01:30:54.479
<v Speaker 1>I was gonna say, what's the Victorian version of like

1576
01:30:54.560 --> 01:30:58.680
<v Speaker 1>asking someone to hang right, but he doesn't have those

1577
01:30:58.760 --> 01:31:01.760
<v Speaker 1>things right like being Vonne knowing how to ask for

1578
01:31:01.880 --> 01:31:06.640
<v Speaker 1>those things. And when you were saying like trusting himself,

1579
01:31:07.159 --> 01:31:09.239
<v Speaker 1>trust himself in a different way. He probably trust himself

1580
01:31:09.279 --> 01:31:12.000
<v Speaker 1>a lot when it comes to like money and whatever

1581
01:31:12.119 --> 01:31:15.560
<v Speaker 1>skills that he can recognize and hold on to. But

1582
01:31:15.680 --> 01:31:19.279
<v Speaker 1>it's more like, can I trust that I have inherent value? Yes,

1583
01:31:19.600 --> 01:31:24.319
<v Speaker 1>and that other people could, maybe God forbid, see that

1584
01:31:24.479 --> 01:31:29.239
<v Speaker 1>value and want to take care of that, and that

1585
01:31:29.479 --> 01:31:32.319
<v Speaker 1>I can trust myself to handle it if I'm not

1586
01:31:32.479 --> 01:31:36.920
<v Speaker 1>rewarded in the moment for how I'm trying to do

1587
01:31:37.039 --> 01:31:40.159
<v Speaker 1>things differently. Because that's like even what you were saying

1588
01:31:40.199 --> 01:31:42.760
<v Speaker 1>to Ben about like the existential part of it, like

1589
01:31:42.840 --> 01:31:45.920
<v Speaker 1>the why is what also keeps you going when you're

1590
01:31:45.960 --> 01:31:49.840
<v Speaker 1>not getting rewarded for all the changes you're making. Because

1591
01:31:49.840 --> 01:31:51.960
<v Speaker 1>he's not, he's a bad reputation, He's probably gonna get

1592
01:31:51.960 --> 01:31:53.920
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people that are going to come at

1593
01:31:54.000 --> 01:31:56.039
<v Speaker 1>him sideways.

1594
01:31:56.640 --> 01:31:57.399
<v Speaker 2>Get a lot of pushback.

1595
01:31:57.560 --> 01:32:01.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, And so he really needs to hold on

1596
01:32:01.840 --> 01:32:05.159
<v Speaker 3>to something bigger than that.

1597
01:32:05.920 --> 01:32:11.680
<v Speaker 1>And he's in such a reward based field, an instant

1598
01:32:11.800 --> 01:32:15.119
<v Speaker 1>reward too, that he also was going to have to learn.

1599
01:32:15.199 --> 01:32:17.479
<v Speaker 1>And that's what means a therapist would do, is like,

1600
01:32:17.720 --> 01:32:20.119
<v Speaker 1>we have to be patient. It's going to take time.

1601
01:32:20.800 --> 01:32:24.560
<v Speaker 1>You're on the right course, still like almost as a therapist,

1602
01:32:24.640 --> 01:32:27.119
<v Speaker 1>being like more of a guide that we're like on

1603
01:32:27.239 --> 01:32:28.880
<v Speaker 1>the right track, and this is what's going to look

1604
01:32:28.960 --> 01:32:31.840
<v Speaker 1>like and it's going to feel hard, and it's not

1605
01:32:31.920 --> 01:32:35.000
<v Speaker 1>a magic spell where once you're acting like this, everyone's gonna.

1606
01:32:34.760 --> 01:32:37.279
<v Speaker 3>Be like Scrooge, I love you, thank you.

1607
01:32:38.840 --> 01:32:42.760
<v Speaker 1>That more closer to the recovery comparison is that people

1608
01:32:42.880 --> 01:32:46.399
<v Speaker 1>are still going to have like a a bad assumption

1609
01:32:46.479 --> 01:32:48.680
<v Speaker 1>about you, or not even assumption. You're still going to

1610
01:32:48.720 --> 01:32:51.399
<v Speaker 1>have a bad reputation with some people because you've done shit.

1611
01:32:51.880 --> 01:32:54.479
<v Speaker 1>You need to just sit with that, and that can't

1612
01:32:54.600 --> 01:32:56.399
<v Speaker 1>be part of the equation of why you're doing what

1613
01:32:56.479 --> 01:33:00.880
<v Speaker 1>you're doing now. Good over it of ego death that

1614
01:33:00.960 --> 01:33:02.920
<v Speaker 1>accompanies this kind of work.

1615
01:33:03.279 --> 01:33:06.399
<v Speaker 2>Take one of those last break things that we tend

1616
01:33:06.479 --> 01:33:09.000
<v Speaker 2>to do the last one of the season here and

1617
01:33:09.119 --> 01:33:12.560
<v Speaker 2>move into final thoughts. So let's talk about final thoughts.

1618
01:33:13.800 --> 01:33:15.399
<v Speaker 2>I think we all love this movie. So we can't

1619
01:33:15.479 --> 01:33:19.640
<v Speaker 2>follow and follow our typical thing we've developed this particular

1620
01:33:19.720 --> 01:33:21.800
<v Speaker 2>season of well who love this one the least, they'll

1621
01:33:21.840 --> 01:33:22.319
<v Speaker 2>go first.

1622
01:33:22.600 --> 01:33:25.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I love the Muppets anything. I'm a

1623
01:33:25.520 --> 01:33:27.960
<v Speaker 1>big muppet head. I love the Muffet babies growing up,

1624
01:33:28.119 --> 01:33:30.560
<v Speaker 1>I love Muppets Christmas Carol. I wish there's more and

1625
01:33:30.600 --> 01:33:34.319
<v Speaker 1>most Piggy in this one. I think that's my only critique. Yesh,

1626
01:33:34.399 --> 01:33:37.479
<v Speaker 1>it's definitely like just as side character. I mean, it's

1627
01:33:37.520 --> 01:33:42.359
<v Speaker 1>not very Muppet heavy this one. Actually, comparatively, it's more

1628
01:33:42.439 --> 01:33:44.960
<v Speaker 1>a Christmas Carol with like Muppets filling out the outside.

1629
01:33:45.520 --> 01:33:48.560
<v Speaker 3>That's definitely true. That's definitely true. I love this movie.

1630
01:33:48.560 --> 01:33:51.279
<v Speaker 1>If you're gonna watch Christmas Carol, I like this one. Also,

1631
01:33:51.319 --> 01:33:53.520
<v Speaker 1>the songs are bangers. I forget how much I know

1632
01:33:53.600 --> 01:33:55.760
<v Speaker 1>all the songs until I'm listening and I'm like bopping

1633
01:33:55.800 --> 01:33:56.279
<v Speaker 1>along with it.

1634
01:33:56.920 --> 01:33:58.800
<v Speaker 3>So it's an easy one to put on for kids too.

1635
01:33:58.880 --> 01:34:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Like, I think it is a a very all over

1636
01:34:02.800 --> 01:34:05.760
<v Speaker 1>crowd pleaser, and I'll watch it a bajillion more times

1637
01:34:05.800 --> 01:34:10.039
<v Speaker 1>after this. Yeah, I love this movie. I've watched this

1638
01:34:10.199 --> 01:34:13.359
<v Speaker 1>movie since it came out in nineteen ninety two. My

1639
01:34:13.880 --> 01:34:16.479
<v Speaker 1>siblings and I really have always enjoyed this movie. It's

1640
01:34:16.520 --> 01:34:19.159
<v Speaker 1>something that we watch whenever we're together, if we happen

1641
01:34:19.199 --> 01:34:21.640
<v Speaker 1>to be together on Christmas. It's definitely a movie that

1642
01:34:21.720 --> 01:34:24.319
<v Speaker 1>gets watched. I know all the words, saw the songs,

1643
01:34:24.920 --> 01:34:26.920
<v Speaker 1>I know all the dialogue to the film, and I'm

1644
01:34:27.000 --> 01:34:28.840
<v Speaker 1>just gonna keep I already watched it. This is already

1645
01:34:28.880 --> 01:34:31.840
<v Speaker 1>my second watch of the movie for the season. I

1646
01:34:31.960 --> 01:34:34.439
<v Speaker 1>might watch it again after this. So I love this

1647
01:34:34.600 --> 01:34:39.439
<v Speaker 1>movie and I'm gonna keep watching it at the bare minimum,

1648
01:34:39.479 --> 01:34:40.319
<v Speaker 1>which is once a year.

1649
01:34:40.600 --> 01:34:44.039
<v Speaker 3>What's your favorite line from the movie, Hannah, since you

1650
01:34:44.119 --> 01:34:44.720
<v Speaker 3>know them by heart?

1651
01:34:47.399 --> 01:34:50.159
<v Speaker 1>I mean probably the one that Ben put on the board,

1652
01:34:50.279 --> 01:34:53.079
<v Speaker 1>which is light the lamp, not the rat, like the

1653
01:34:53.159 --> 01:34:54.920
<v Speaker 1>lap not the rat, like the laugh not the rat,

1654
01:34:55.319 --> 01:34:57.840
<v Speaker 1>and he pushes them to frozen water. I like when

1655
01:34:57.840 --> 01:35:00.720
<v Speaker 1>he uses the rat to clean the window. I really

1656
01:35:00.880 --> 01:35:04.840
<v Speaker 1>love when Peter gets really excited about the goose. That's

1657
01:35:04.880 --> 01:35:06.920
<v Speaker 1>the part that I remember as a kid, that we

1658
01:35:07.000 --> 01:35:11.600
<v Speaker 1>would rewatch the goose. You's so excited about it's silly.

1659
01:35:12.239 --> 01:35:15.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't think there's a better answer to any question

1660
01:35:16.359 --> 01:35:19.479
<v Speaker 2>than what's your favorite line for the movie? Like the

1661
01:35:19.600 --> 01:35:23.479
<v Speaker 2>lamp not the rat? What line was better? What's more memorable?

1662
01:35:23.600 --> 01:35:27.079
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's plenty, but what was more Muppets Christmas

1663
01:35:27.119 --> 01:35:28.640
<v Speaker 2>Caro nothing.

1664
01:35:29.000 --> 01:35:29.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1665
01:35:29.560 --> 01:35:31.880
<v Speaker 2>I love this movie. I've always loved this movie. I

1666
01:35:32.159 --> 01:35:34.880
<v Speaker 2>also love the Muppets. I will watch anything Muppets. It's

1667
01:35:35.920 --> 01:35:41.039
<v Speaker 2>just wholesome, good entertainment. And as an adult coming back

1668
01:35:41.119 --> 01:35:43.000
<v Speaker 2>and watching this and catching a few of the jokes

1669
01:35:43.039 --> 01:35:45.840
<v Speaker 2>that they like slipping for grown ups, you're like, ah, oh,

1670
01:35:46.239 --> 01:35:49.079
<v Speaker 2>I see what you did there, And I like catching

1671
01:35:49.119 --> 01:35:51.319
<v Speaker 2>those because the Muppets are a little slick with them.

1672
01:35:51.960 --> 01:35:54.760
<v Speaker 2>It's usually Miss Piggy, and since there's so little of

1673
01:35:54.840 --> 01:35:57.439
<v Speaker 2>her in this, yeah yeah, and more of the giant

1674
01:35:58.920 --> 01:36:01.560
<v Speaker 2>that you know, this is a little harder to catch.

1675
01:36:02.199 --> 01:36:05.680
<v Speaker 2>But I really enjoyed watching this movie. I showed it

1676
01:36:05.760 --> 01:36:09.359
<v Speaker 2>to my kid and unfortunately she got scared a bit

1677
01:36:09.560 --> 01:36:11.039
<v Speaker 2>by the Marley Brothers.

1678
01:36:12.159 --> 01:36:15.159
<v Speaker 3>Oh sure, all of those old fucks. Yeah, those those

1679
01:36:15.279 --> 01:36:16.720
<v Speaker 3>miserable old bastards. Signe.

1680
01:36:16.880 --> 01:36:21.600
<v Speaker 2>I think that in the Ghost of Christmas Past got

1681
01:36:21.640 --> 01:36:26.319
<v Speaker 2>her because my two year old has not been sleeping

1682
01:36:26.600 --> 01:36:29.880
<v Speaker 2>and so getting her down was miserable. And instead of

1683
01:36:30.239 --> 01:36:32.439
<v Speaker 2>being able to go upstairs last night when I watched

1684
01:36:32.479 --> 01:36:35.159
<v Speaker 2>this and just put the baby back down for thirty

1685
01:36:35.199 --> 01:36:38.119
<v Speaker 2>seconds and patter Eva got bored and started watching a

1686
01:36:38.199 --> 01:36:40.159
<v Speaker 2>movie before me giving her the one like, hey kid,

1687
01:36:40.600 --> 01:36:43.199
<v Speaker 2>A few spots in this movie can be a little scary,

1688
01:36:43.600 --> 01:36:45.920
<v Speaker 2>so she was just watching some and ended up turning

1689
01:36:45.960 --> 01:36:48.640
<v Speaker 2>it off and watching something else. I was putting the

1690
01:36:48.680 --> 01:36:53.600
<v Speaker 2>baby down. But I enjoy this this movie a lot,

1691
01:36:53.680 --> 01:36:57.159
<v Speaker 2>and it made me consider something I hadn't considered ever before,

1692
01:36:57.880 --> 01:37:01.199
<v Speaker 2>which is in watching The Britishness and Michael Kinan of

1693
01:37:01.279 --> 01:37:05.399
<v Speaker 2>realizing how it was that Alfred Penniworth came about. He

1694
01:37:05.560 --> 01:37:09.800
<v Speaker 2>was actually Ebenezer Scrooge who tried to make his penance

1695
01:37:09.800 --> 01:37:11.960
<v Speaker 2>by caring for rich people by caring for another poor

1696
01:37:12.119 --> 01:37:15.000
<v Speaker 2>orphan kid that got left alone on Christmas, that kid

1697
01:37:15.079 --> 01:37:15.800
<v Speaker 2>being Bruce Wayne.

1698
01:37:17.399 --> 01:37:20.600
<v Speaker 1>Fuck Bruce Wayne. I think you're so slick with it. Yeah,

1699
01:37:21.000 --> 01:37:22.760
<v Speaker 1>of all the kids that need help in this world,

1700
01:37:22.840 --> 01:37:23.880
<v Speaker 1>it's a billionaire child.

1701
01:37:24.079 --> 01:37:24.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah exactly.

1702
01:37:25.039 --> 01:37:28.560
<v Speaker 2>He has no parents, guys, and then he provided gentle,

1703
01:37:29.600 --> 01:37:31.359
<v Speaker 2>loving care and.

1704
01:37:31.439 --> 01:37:33.520
<v Speaker 3>He still grew up to dress in a fucking batsuit.

1705
01:37:33.960 --> 01:37:36.760
<v Speaker 3>So you know, I'd be a kid can offer you

1706
01:37:36.840 --> 01:37:40.359
<v Speaker 3>know any don't make me a Riddler apologist. I know

1707
01:37:40.439 --> 01:37:41.800
<v Speaker 3>that's a new Batman movie.

1708
01:37:42.079 --> 01:37:45.159
<v Speaker 2>And on this podcast, on this day, if I can

1709
01:37:45.279 --> 01:37:50.800
<v Speaker 2>make you an apologist for that riddler, I would be.

1710
01:37:50.840 --> 01:37:52.520
<v Speaker 3>A magician, that's true.

1711
01:37:52.960 --> 01:37:57.439
<v Speaker 2>But I think Christmas Carol is still a powerful story,

1712
01:37:57.479 --> 01:37:59.720
<v Speaker 2>and I think we're kind of coming back around full

1713
01:37:59.720 --> 01:38:02.279
<v Speaker 2>circle of needing to scare rich folks into behaving.

1714
01:38:03.039 --> 01:38:03.960
<v Speaker 3>I know, that's fucking right.

1715
01:38:04.239 --> 01:38:04.399
<v Speaker 2>I know.

1716
01:38:04.600 --> 01:38:07.399
<v Speaker 1>When I was watching this, I was like, does anyone

1717
01:38:07.520 --> 01:38:09.800
<v Speaker 1>like an Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or any of

1718
01:38:09.920 --> 01:38:13.000
<v Speaker 1>those fucks watch this movie and like any version of

1719
01:38:13.079 --> 01:38:17.720
<v Speaker 1>this story and how do they receive it? Like, what

1720
01:38:17.840 --> 01:38:20.760
<v Speaker 1>are they hearing? If they're watching it at all, what

1721
01:38:20.920 --> 01:38:23.720
<v Speaker 1>are they hearing? Are they seeing themselves? Are they just

1722
01:38:23.800 --> 01:38:26.079
<v Speaker 1>thinking this is a cute little Victorian.

1723
01:38:25.640 --> 01:38:28.920
<v Speaker 2>Story, probably probably associated from it.

1724
01:38:29.199 --> 01:38:29.399
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1725
01:38:29.520 --> 01:38:31.800
<v Speaker 1>I think they're like Ebanezer seems like a cool guy.

1726
01:38:31.840 --> 01:38:33.600
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to hang out with him. He doesn't

1727
01:38:33.640 --> 01:38:39.119
<v Speaker 1>need to change. My other friends, my cohort, they're like Ebenezer,

1728
01:38:39.199 --> 01:38:41.760
<v Speaker 1>but not me. Yeah I'm different. Yeah.

1729
01:38:42.239 --> 01:38:45.399
<v Speaker 2>I gave away five million dollars with my new wife

1730
01:38:45.479 --> 01:38:46.000
<v Speaker 2>to charity.

1731
01:38:46.880 --> 01:38:48.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah it doesn't matter that I'm going to be the

1732
01:38:49.000 --> 01:38:50.720
<v Speaker 1>first trillionaire on planet Earth.

1733
01:38:51.079 --> 01:38:54.359
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, even though for what Yeah to do what with?

1734
01:38:54.840 --> 01:38:55.279
<v Speaker 3>Mm hmm.

1735
01:38:56.840 --> 01:38:59.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, on that note, we'll wrap up. Here are five

1736
01:39:00.880 --> 01:39:04.439
<v Speaker 1>episode of twenty twenty five. Thank you all for joining us,

1737
01:39:04.560 --> 01:39:07.560
<v Speaker 1>Thank you all for listening, Thank you all for rating

1738
01:39:07.640 --> 01:39:10.840
<v Speaker 1>and reviewing and commenting on and all those kind of

1739
01:39:10.960 --> 01:39:13.520
<v Speaker 1>things we see. All the comments you guys leave places,

1740
01:39:13.600 --> 01:39:15.640
<v Speaker 1>we share them with each other. We really appreciate it.

1741
01:39:16.199 --> 01:39:17.000
<v Speaker 3>It's been a hard year.

1742
01:39:17.159 --> 01:39:20.520
<v Speaker 1>It's been a hard year for most people, especially if

1743
01:39:20.560 --> 01:39:23.359
<v Speaker 1>you give a shit and you're paying attention, So you

1744
01:39:23.439 --> 01:39:27.800
<v Speaker 1>appreciate everyone who is giving their resources and some capacity

1745
01:39:27.880 --> 01:39:32.079
<v Speaker 1>to us, whether it's financially on Patreon or buying our

1746
01:39:32.119 --> 01:39:33.960
<v Speaker 1>merch or if it's just for free, which is giving

1747
01:39:34.039 --> 01:39:36.479
<v Speaker 1>us a little bit of your time, listening, downloading, telling

1748
01:39:36.560 --> 01:39:39.760
<v Speaker 1>a friend, leaving a rating, leaving a review. We genuinely

1749
01:39:39.920 --> 01:39:43.520
<v Speaker 1>very appreciate it. We're a podcast who pays for themselves.

1750
01:39:43.720 --> 01:39:43.880
<v Speaker 1>You know.

1751
01:39:44.159 --> 01:39:46.640
<v Speaker 3>Right now we're in Ben's basement at a table.

1752
01:39:47.880 --> 01:39:50.800
<v Speaker 1>Sitting at a big table, a crappy table that has

1753
01:39:50.840 --> 01:39:54.319
<v Speaker 1>folded on us before, you know, surrounded by his children's

1754
01:39:54.840 --> 01:39:57.640
<v Speaker 1>play stuff because we're technically in their play basement area,

1755
01:39:58.039 --> 01:40:00.239
<v Speaker 1>and we're big children, and we are big children, and

1756
01:40:00.319 --> 01:40:02.840
<v Speaker 1>so we really appreciate you all. We hope everyone can

1757
01:40:02.960 --> 01:40:05.880
<v Speaker 1>have a chill holiday with people that they love that

1758
01:40:06.199 --> 01:40:08.239
<v Speaker 1>take care of them, and you take a care of

1759
01:40:08.319 --> 01:40:10.680
<v Speaker 1>each other, and we will see you all in twenty

1760
01:40:10.760 --> 01:40:11.279
<v Speaker 1>twenty six