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Speaker 1: Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster

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movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and

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I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by Ben Stover,

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individual therapist, Hannah Espinozo marriage and family therapists. We're all

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licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice

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out of Chicago. Even though we are licensed mental health professionals,

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this podcast is purely for entertainment purposes and to fulfill

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our love of dissecting pop culture and all forms.

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Speaker 2: Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,

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we aren't your therapist.

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Speaker 1: If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find

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a local mental health provider. Merry Christmas and happy holidays everyone.

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For our last episode of twenty twenty five, we were

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talking about a Christmas Carol, Charles Dickens classic. Specifically, though

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we will be discussing map It's Christmas Carol, which in

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my opinion, is the best adaptation of a Christmas Carol.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what you two think of. What are

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your two? Well?

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Speaker 1: Do you guys have different opinions about what's the best

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adaptation of a Christmas Carol.

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Speaker 3: We'll get that out of the way.

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Speaker 2: Best her favorite's a different discussion. Favorite Muppets exactly best.

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I think George C. Scott did it best. But okay,

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fair best and favorite. This is classic and it's gold.

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Speaker 1: This is the only version that I really love and

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I've never watched another version and I never will.

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Speaker 3: We watched Scrooge yesterday. Yeah, but that's.

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Speaker 1: Different because it's Bill Murray.

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Speaker 3: That feels different. It's more of a retelling. Yeah, okay,

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I'll give you that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but I think most people know the plot of

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a Christmas Carol, but if you don't, it's about a

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miserly old man named Ebenezer Scrooge who has no friends,

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who is a I don't know, busy this man, what

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will we call him?

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Speaker 2: He's a lender?

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Speaker 3: A lender?

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, Yeah, he's like a loan shark type and

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he's taken a lot of money from people. He doesn't

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give a shit about anybody, He overworks his employees, doesn't

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care about Christmas, and he gets visited by three ghosts

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on Christmas Night to teach him that basically money isn't

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everything and he needs to turn his shit around. If

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he doesn't want to go to hell like his ex

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partner and friend Jacob Marley.

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Speaker 2: So in this episode we're going to be covering emotional neglect,

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attachment wounds, and values before we get into treatment and

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final thoughts.

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Speaker 1: Just like always so, Ebeneezer is a classic character, even

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being called like a scrooge or saying bahumbug, and he

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is sort of a parody of a guy that is

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a miser. I mean that's like the classic word right

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for him is someone who is just not just rich,

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but super tight with their money.

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Speaker 3: He won't turn the heat on in.

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Speaker 1: His place, but he also went in the lights on

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or used something like he was doing stuff in the dark.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he doesn't care about it.

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Speaker 2: He lives at Marley's place. Oh yeah, he doesn't even

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have his own house anymore. He lives in his dead

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partner's house so he doesn't have to pay for it.

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Speaker 3: Well, damn, that's worse than I thought.

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Speaker 2: And still won't use heat or really barely uses his

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chamber stick.

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Speaker 3: Oh God, would Kurda define that for the class?

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Speaker 2: A chamber stick a candle with a little brass ring

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as a holder.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I thought you were referring to something associated with

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a chamber pot. No, like something you use maybe like

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a stick to break up your poop.

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Speaker 2: No, a chamberstick is a candle holder, you know, because

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they used candles to keep fighting. Familiar candlestick or candle

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chamber stick collection.

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Speaker 3: Oh fancy.

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Speaker 2: So it's been forefront of my mind. Also watching The

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Frozen a lot, and they use them in there too.

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Speaker 3: Okay, gotcha, gotcha didn't realize.

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Speaker 2: Which is more or less set in the same time period,

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so makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So he is a man who pinches pennies to the max,

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like he even though he has a ton of money,

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he is choosing to live as if he almost has none,

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and he treats money as like a very scarce commodity.

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He had no generosity in his spirit, like he wants

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his Bob Cratchett, his like secondhand man to work on Christmas.

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He doesn't want to give money to the orphans, the

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people collecting money for orphans. He just doesn't seem to

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care about anyone else and seems to value money over everything.

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And that's the guy we meet at the beginning of

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the story. When I think about Ebenezer, also think about

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him as just like hoarding, like he's just hoarding all

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of his money and hoarding all of his resources and

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just keeping them really tight to him. He won't he

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won't spend money in anything or anyone because he just

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has to have all of it to.

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Speaker 2: Himself, and he won't even enjoy it.

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Speaker 3: No, he doesn't enjoy it. He seems.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like miser literally means a miserable fuck.

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Speaker 3: Like he's a miserable fuck. Yeah, he's miserable.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty much exactly means. And it's very clear

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that Ebenezer is the now classic definition of this miserable

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old person who humbug humbug doesn't like anyone or anything.

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But really that gruph exterior is just something he's locked

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into to keep other people locked out and to keep

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himself locked in. It does not reflect who he truly is,

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and it shows pretty quick into the story that he's

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not actually got such a frozen heart as he likes

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to portray.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, he's definitely some one that is acting as

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if this is also the life that they want. And

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what I mean by that is he does have this

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very gregarious, kind seeming nephew who wants to involve him,

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wants to kind of get him out, Like you can

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see moments where, even like with Bob Kraujet, like moments

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where it seems like the community would take him in,

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like would open themselves up to him, but he has

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gotten so deep into what you're bringing up in like

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this protective persona that he is constantly rejecting and pushing away, and.

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Speaker 3: In my opinion, well and also something.

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Speaker 1: People do do which is over identifying with what keeps them,

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what they think keeps them safe, like I like being

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by myself. I don't even care about Christmas. Overdoing it

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with this part of their personality.

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Speaker 2: It's a part. I mean, I think people are more

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or less to understand. Yeah, what a part is, We've

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described it pretty well. I mean I think this isn't

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a component of his personality. He's developed as a defense

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to keep himself as painfree as possible.

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Speaker 1: And we see right away because obviously because we watch

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the Muppets movie. Though I'm sure we'll reference other parts

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of the story from other adaptations because it's such a big, well,

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it's such a ubiquitous story that everybody seems to know,

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similar to when we talk about the Grinch.

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Speaker 2: And conveniently, because of Hollywood, money. It's in the public

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domain now. Oh, so they don't have to pay royalty fees.

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Speaker 3: So I could make my own version of Christmas Carol.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure you could.

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Speaker 3: Wow. I mean I won't, but it's nice to know.

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But I could.

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Speaker 1: But we see right away in this version of the

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story when the ghosts of Christmas Past comes, which spooks me,

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the gross of Christmas past scary in this version of

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the story.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that puppet is creepy, ooky, spooky.

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Speaker 1: I don't like it. Definitely haunted me as a child,

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very uncomfortable. Wow, really, because I feel like the first

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ghost is like, well, whatever ghost because of the little

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kid head.

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Speaker 3: No, it's like it doesn't exist in the real world.

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I mean, which I guess is the point.

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Speaker 2: It looks very ethereal.

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Speaker 3: Creeps Oh, I see.

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Speaker 2: Okay, because it looks ethereal, or because the way the

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face moves. Because the way the face moves is creepy.

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This puppet is a little I really both.

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Speaker 1: This is definitely a feeling that comes from my childhood,

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when I was probably watching it and being like what,

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I don't like it, Like, I couldn't contextualize it. It

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just gave me the weirds and so I still have

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that feeling when I see it. But this ghost to

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show Ebenezer right away. Like the first image we get

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of him as a kid is being at boarding school,

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I assume, and he's there at Christmas time. It seems

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like most of the other kids, if not all the

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other kids have gone home for holiday break, and he's

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sitting by himself in the classroom doing work, doing school work.

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Speaker 2: And that's the first time we see a part appear

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in this movie. Because Scrooge is still accessing that memory

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and locking into like, well, it's quieter and it gives

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you the opportunity to do more work. He will not

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admit to himself still that that Mettmory pained him, but

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the veil cracks not long after that, and he's like,

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please don't show him anymore.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, when he said, it's the best, it's a

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good opportunity to get work done because he's by himself,

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And I was like, yikes, you can very much hear

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how that's a story he started telling himself around that

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time to deal with the situation, because you're right, like

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this the sad circumstance, which is that's horrible.

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Speaker 3: I mean, when we talk about.

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Speaker 1: An idea of emotional neglect, like leaving your kid at

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the school over the holidays, choosing to do that.

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Speaker 3: We don't know why.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this movie, this version doesn't give us a

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lot of details about his backstory.

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Speaker 2: This version sure doesn't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but we're to assume that he, Yeah, he was

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just like a really lonely kid who had to spend

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time by himself. And instead of acknowledging the truth of that,

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he's trying to, yeah, make it into something else.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was using it to retell his story and

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use that as the reason why he was successful. All

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these other people went home, and I learned how to focus,

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and I learned how to ignore frivolous human interactions and

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connections and just focus on money and facts and learning,

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which very clearly becomes untrue. And we see is untrue,

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because he lights right up when we start seeing other

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parts of his story. But I won't skip ahead just yet.

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Speaker 1: No, And I think you're naming there is something we

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see now, like in real life when people talk about

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their stories, Like when I hear successful people talk about

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their childhoods and stuff, and I can hear what we're

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talking about, like them doing that too. Which is, yeah,

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it was really good for me that my parents did

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this to me or that to me, because it taught

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me to be ruthless or to really work hard. The

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way that we try to make meaning out of bad

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stuff that happens to us, which isn't on its face

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the worst thing to do, obviously, like there is something

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there to putting meaning into.

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Speaker 3: Hardships we've gone through.

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Speaker 1: But the way that we're talking about it is where

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you go too far in the other direction and you

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over do it and you get really attached you and

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you almost like moralize the circumstance you were in, like

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it was good for me, and so it was good

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that I went through that because it allows it to

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make it into something virtuous versus just something painful.

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Speaker 2: Which is exactly what parts do. We'll start creating a

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version of the story that separates the version we allow

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to exist, or the version that needs to exist, from

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the guey soft core underneath that represents all of us

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where we can get hurt and do and in his

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case did get hurt, get very got very hurt, and

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you know, they make the point of showing us it's

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weird by having the other kids present in that story

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asking him you're not going home. He never goes home.

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Speaker 3: He always stays.

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Speaker 2: And I think one of them more or less is like, yeah,

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he's getting left. And other versions of the story go

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through the interactions between him and his sister who also

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goes to I believe goes to the school, or the

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sister talks his father into letting him come home for Christmas,

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not this one and not several of them, but eventually

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she talks the dad into letting him come home, and

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he's very very attached to her, but not to his

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parents and his sisters. The mother of said nephew you

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mentioned earlier, which is why that nephew is still connected

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to him.

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Speaker 1: Also maybe why that nephew is such a happy person.

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If his mom had a different experience growing up than

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Ebenezer dead.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, his sister would have gotten love and connection and

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seen as valuable, which would kind of build into the

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attachment wounds. If we don't have anything else to say,

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I'm emotional neglect at this moment.

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Speaker 1: I think the only thing I want to say about

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this part of Ebenezer's experience is that when you have

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something that happens to you repeatedly, over and over and

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over and over again. That story that you're telling yourself

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only gets stronger and only and feels like truth instead

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of a part of a story that you were experiencing.

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So because this isn't like he got left one Christmas,

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he got left every Christmas after he went to boarding school.

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And having experiences like that also makes it really hard

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for a person to hold hope that things will be

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different or that things can be different, because well, look

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what happened over the last I don't know, we want

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to say maybe decade roughly, probably because he was at

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least he was maybe like five or six when he

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went in probably and I'm guessing is probably somewhere around

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seventeen when he graduates. When he graduates, does that seem accurate?

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Speaker 3: Well, I would say I think.

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Speaker 2: Totally a bit younger at this point in time.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I think in Britain, because I watch a lot

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of British shows, I think the age that they get

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sent to boarding school Nowish is like eightish.

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Speaker 3: But if his family were.

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Speaker 1: Just not wanting to deal with him, which it sounds like,

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I'm sure, they sent him to boarding school as soon

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as you literally could, so I wouldn't be surprised if

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he was going to boarding school at five sex, even

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though I don't think.

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Speaker 2: That's common, and it's clear he's formed this idea, and

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you know, the ghost of Christmas Past walks us through

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all of these various points in time where we see

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the foundation of emotional neglect that he sees the world

279
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through repeat itself. There's moments where you see young Ebenezer

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connecting to people and engaging with people, but you also

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simultaneously hear him praise the teacher that taught him the

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most important lessons he learned, which were to kind of

283
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you know, focus and focus on finance and that to

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lean into what you're good at.

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Speaker 1: And he also which I've caught for the maybe the

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first time ever seen this movie, like I don't know

287
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two thousand times, probably I know all the dialogue, which

288
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I practiced today because I was like, do you really

289
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know of the dialogue? I know all of it. Is

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that when the right at the end of the school

291
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scene when Ebenezer is the oldest going to see him

292
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at the school and the teacher tells him don't tip

293
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the driver. So also I think he's also getting shitty information,

294
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like shitty info from these men that he puts on

295
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a pedestal, right, because we also know that Jacob and

296
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what is the other brother's.

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Speaker 2: Name in this one.

298
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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's two of them.

299
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Speaker 2: There are two of them, but that's only because they

300
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put the two critics in it.

301
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Speaker 1: There's oh yeah, that's what be surprised of. Their names

302
00:16:28,919 --> 00:16:30,279
are Jacob and Morley Marley.

303
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Speaker 2: No, it's like Jacob and Eric or something.

304
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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

305
00:16:36,159 --> 00:16:39,919
Speaker 1: But also that also shows like when you're taught lessons

306
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,480
by people, and you're only taught lessons by one people,

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one person, versus having like a mother and a father

308
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and aunts and uncles and all of that kind of shit,

309
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Like he only has this one teacher and then these

310
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,840
other two men that he idolizes because they're so rich.

311
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Speaker 3: So like he also is.

312
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Speaker 1: Getting a lot of impact from the outside world telling

313
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him that money is the most important thing. I mean, yeah,

314
00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:07,079
if you want to talk about attachment, we attach to

315
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whatever we can as we're growing up. So if he's

316
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being kept at school, then his only relationships with adults

317
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:21,440
at least are with teachers, and so then the version

318
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,079
of him that's like, well, I want to have value,

319
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,279
I want to please an authority figure of some sort,

320
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,039
instead of it being like through my parents, I'm just

321
00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,279
gonna really please my professors and do really well at

322
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school and listen to everything they say. And yet, because

323
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we still have to get like our values and our

324
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,720
social skills and our life lessons. And unfortunately he's getting

325
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,960
them from these adults that are only or these muppets

326
00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:49,759
that are.

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Speaker 3: Only he's an eagle, Sam Diego.

328
00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,759
Speaker 1: Yes, that are only focusing on one part of his life,

329
00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,799
which is the education part, and then for the business part.

330
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,839
And so yeah, he's getting this message almost like religious

331
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:08,480
in nature from Sam the Eagle of you know, business

332
00:18:08,519 --> 00:18:10,920
is powerful, it's good that you're doing this, and yet

333
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,119
and be a miser, pinch your pennies as much as

334
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you can.

335
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Speaker 3: So those are like the life lessons he's left with.

336
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,960
Speaker 1: Because it feels like even when he meets Fuzzy Wig, right,

337
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which we see in all the versions that I've the

338
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,200
other versions that I've seen all have he's kind of

339
00:18:29,279 --> 00:18:34,680
like a pushover businessman. He's kind of really really really lax,

340
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,000
really chill, and you can tell that Ebenezer feels like

341
00:18:38,039 --> 00:18:41,920
he's kind of silly as compared to the other people

342
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,720
that I think he's held in esteem, which I think

343
00:18:44,759 --> 00:18:46,920
makes sense for him to feel that way based on

344
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the seriousness with which business is talked about.

345
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Speaker 2: Yeah, he calls him like, what a what a soft

346
00:18:56,079 --> 00:18:59,240
feather of a man he was or something. In this version,

347
00:19:01,319 --> 00:19:05,960
he always Fezziwig has always shown even though Scrooge has

348
00:19:06,079 --> 00:19:10,200
great fondness of him, and the memories really start to

349
00:19:10,279 --> 00:19:14,839
light up. There's Wiggs and we always had this Christmas party.

350
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:19,079
You can see he clearly, you know, had such fondness

351
00:19:19,079 --> 00:19:26,839
for this, but yet it was a gentler kinder man. Interesting,

352
00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:31,160
that's who you attach, you because we can't help but

353
00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,920
attach and want to please somebody that's a parental figure.

354
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,200
But we will stop trying to get that approval from

355
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,200
people who won't give it. But that doesn't mean we'll

356
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:43,079
stop trying to get it.

357
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,799
Speaker 1: Well. The inclusion of fazzi Wig or Fezziwig as a

358
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,240
character in a Christmas story is an interesting one in

359
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,160
that his first seems like his first substantial job out

360
00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,480
of school is with someone that is so contrary to

361
00:20:01,839 --> 00:20:05,960
the values that he was raised in at school, and

362
00:20:06,279 --> 00:20:09,799
that it doesn't have an impact on him the way

363
00:20:09,799 --> 00:20:12,160
that you would hope it would, you know, and like,

364
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:18,559
you're right that instead of him seeing the contrasting positives

365
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,400
of Fezziwig's lifestyle, he instead is still trying to like

366
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,640
jam it into his value system. Like even as he's

367
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,559
walking up in that scene and he's like, this party

368
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,079
is really expensive, and fezzy Wig was like, what the

369
00:20:33,079 --> 00:20:33,839
fuck's your problem?

370
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:35,759
Speaker 3: Did like, it's first mess.

371
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,319
Speaker 1: We're gonna be generous, have fun, drink, dance, who cares.

372
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,759
And you can kind of see how for Ebenezer it is.

373
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:46,559
Speaker 3: Not.

374
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 1: It's just not how he views the world, which I

375
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,279
think just goes to show more of that how much

376
00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:55,039
he values this way of thinking, in this way of being,

377
00:20:55,759 --> 00:20:58,000
and it is like he met someone who's like an

378
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,960
extremely different religion and he can't square it, and so

379
00:21:02,759 --> 00:21:05,599
it doesn't really go into him. Like I think now

380
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,519
at is older, he can view it as the memory

381
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:14,440
with more perspective, but in the moment he can't reconcile

382
00:21:15,759 --> 00:21:18,559
how different this lifestyle is than the lifestyle he's been

383
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,119
raised to believe to be true.

384
00:21:21,319 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 2: And this movie kind of glossed it over because it's

385
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,640
a kid's movie. But usually that Fezywig scene is a

386
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,880
little bit longer in different versions of this, So that's

387
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:34,559
one of the longer scenes. And whyat songer is because

388
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:40,480
we start seeing the contrasting present Scrooge looking back on

389
00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:43,480
it with kind of old man eyes versus the younger

390
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:49,519
Scrooge who can't quite release himself and is really starting

391
00:21:49,559 --> 00:21:53,680
to develop this more wooden version of himself before Bell

392
00:21:53,839 --> 00:21:56,559
brings it out of him. And that's the thing that

393
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,279
kind of draws him out. His friends eventually can get

394
00:21:59,319 --> 00:22:02,839
it out of him. You see as Scrooge ages as

395
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,279
we get into each different flashback, that that leaves him

396
00:22:06,559 --> 00:22:09,359
just a little bit more each time.

397
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 1: And I think it's it's a really interesting story of

398
00:22:15,559 --> 00:22:21,400
how you can have these moments of turning it around.

399
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,319
And it's not as easy as maybe we want to

400
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,400
believe it is as easy as like having one good

401
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,160
I mean it can be. You know, one person can

402
00:22:30,319 --> 00:22:34,440
enter your life and change it radically. And I think

403
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,519
what we're seeing with Ebenezer and this is maybe more

404
00:22:38,599 --> 00:22:40,119
going into the attachment wounds.

405
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 3: Part of it is.

406
00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 1: When you have gone through the emotional glect he's gone

407
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:50,559
through growing up. Even though he's trying to emotionally remove

408
00:22:50,599 --> 00:22:54,079
himself from that, there's still that imprint of it, right,

409
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,359
And I think for him what that looks like is

410
00:22:58,319 --> 00:23:00,319
I don't even know if he could let someone and well,

411
00:23:00,319 --> 00:23:03,720
I guess he can't, like Fezziwig or Bell actually get

412
00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:05,680
close to him. Like it even makes me wonder what

413
00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:08,480
the Bell thing, how much of it is I can't

414
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,519
buy a house, which I think it's a big part

415
00:23:10,519 --> 00:23:12,759
of it. And then it also makes me curious if

416
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,759
that's also a good excuse to keep her distant from him,

417
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,400
Like I wonder if there's a part of him that

418
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,960
does struggle with accepting. I'm sure this is true, accepting

419
00:23:24,519 --> 00:23:31,160
that kind of love, accepting such like positive, optimistic, you know,

420
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,839
comfort love attention from both of those people would be

421
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:42,640
really uncomfortable for someone like Scrooge, even though you would

422
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,039
think it would do the opposite.

423
00:23:44,279 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 2: Let's take a break here and we'll be back in

424
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:52,079
a few so. Attachment wounds is a concept that gets

425
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,240
talked about amongst therapists a whole lot and definitely has

426
00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,480
been something that Attachment trauma has been a folk of

427
00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:03,680
quite a few trainings that I've been taking over the

428
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,519
past few years, and has been one of the things

429
00:24:06,559 --> 00:24:11,200
that's more entering the zeitgeist of our professional but I

430
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,680
don't know if it's transcending into the social zitegeist as

431
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,640
general of attachmounds. I know that we've been trying to

432
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,559
understand that everyone's a narcissist, but no.

433
00:24:20,599 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: The girls on the internet, and by the girls, I

434
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,279
mean people in general love to talk about avoidant attachment,

435
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,720
anxious attachment. It's become it has become very.

436
00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:32,279
Speaker 2: Buzzy attachment styles.

437
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: Attachment styles even use the word attachment. So even us

438
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,240
talking about attachment wounds, we probably need to be very

439
00:24:39,279 --> 00:24:42,480
clear about what we mean when we say that.

440
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, because attachment wounds can help define what attachment style is.

441
00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:50,920
But I've seen many videos of everybody trying to understand

442
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,200
what everybody's attachment style is and what that means, and

443
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:58,119
it's become the next version of the Myers Briggs that

444
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:03,000
drives me fucking nuts. But what attachment wounds are are

445
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,960
things that happen to us over the course of our

446
00:25:06,039 --> 00:25:11,240
life that make us feel like we've gotten punished for

447
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,799
showing the vulnerable side of ourself to someone else, and

448
00:25:14,839 --> 00:25:20,400
that can impact how readily, how willingly, how quickly, and

449
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,240
how firmly we will attach to someone else. And as

450
00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:27,599
you can see from good old Ebenezer here, if you

451
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,359
continually show someone that everything but them has no value,

452
00:25:32,519 --> 00:25:36,519
this attachment wound will work both ways. Is that one

453
00:25:36,559 --> 00:25:40,240
way is that they will show a great difficulty in

454
00:25:40,279 --> 00:25:42,359
connecting to other people because they will have a lot

455
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:47,160
of trust issues. But also they will attach quite firmly

456
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:53,359
to something else. An idea concept e Scurage. His attachment

457
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,039
is not to people at all, but to success in business,

458
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:03,799
being the smartest, richest guy. That is all he cares about.

459
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,119
Other people's things are none of his concern. They're humbug

460
00:26:08,759 --> 00:26:14,440
and particularly Christmas. Scrooge doesn't hate everyone and everything else.

461
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,319
He especially hates Christmas because while he watches everyone else

462
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,519
attach and feel warm and comfortable, he realizes even more

463
00:26:22,559 --> 00:26:27,000
so how alone and unwanted he is. So he struggles

464
00:26:27,599 --> 00:26:30,559
with attachment wounds. So when we look at an attachment wound,

465
00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:33,839
it's an understanding that those happen at specific moments. It

466
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,480
can be a breakup, it can be trying to appeal

467
00:26:36,519 --> 00:26:39,599
for the love of a parent. It can be little things.

468
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,480
It can be, like Hannah said, loose little things that

469
00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:46,480
happen over and over and over again, where you're appealing

470
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,119
for a parent to care about you when you fall

471
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,359
and they don't even look at you. Or your spouse

472
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,279
or partner is looking for someone to care that they

473
00:26:55,319 --> 00:26:57,200
at a hard day and you can't pull yourself out

474
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,000
of the TV or your phone. Eventually they start seeking

475
00:27:01,079 --> 00:27:06,680
that connection from somewhere or someone else. Understanding these wounds

476
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,480
happen all the time in these little moments, and they

477
00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:15,319
build and sometimes they're really big ones. But it's through

478
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:20,160
these we can through the balance of these wounds. And

479
00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:23,440
I don't know what the opposite word I would want

480
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,519
to say is of an attachment wound, but the positive

481
00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:27,799
attachment moments we have.

482
00:27:28,799 --> 00:27:31,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think a Gottmann term could even

483
00:27:31,559 --> 00:27:35,319
be like bits of connection, like moments in which connection

484
00:27:35,599 --> 00:27:38,920
is reciprocated and rewarded.

485
00:27:38,839 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 2: Right, and it forms a stronger bond. The things we

486
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,759
get a stronger bond to, we will start appealing to more.

487
00:27:44,839 --> 00:27:48,519
Unfortunately for Scrooge, for him that was money and business success,

488
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,759
but understanding that attachment style is formed out of the

489
00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:54,799
interaction of both of these. Not just like my mommy

490
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,720
loved me. No, it's much more than that.

491
00:27:57,759 --> 00:28:03,519
Speaker 1: And I think he's an interesting case of because he

492
00:28:03,559 --> 00:28:06,880
would be someone where I could see people arguing, even him,

493
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,519
arguing that that doesn't exist for him because he maybe

494
00:28:10,519 --> 00:28:12,279
he got sent to a nice school and he always

495
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:17,720
had his needs met, his literal needs met. And I

496
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:23,079
think that can also be what keeps people from recognizing

497
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,200
something like this within themselves, even especially if it's connected

498
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,640
to their childhood or their relationship to their parents, is

499
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,920
that it's just confusing to be like, well, I did

500
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:37,160
get everything I needed technically, so I can't have a

501
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,480
problem like this, Or I wasn't abused, so I shouldn't

502
00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:43,400
be having an issue like this, And so it's good

503
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,799
to recognize that it can be more nuanced than that. Yeah,

504
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,799
exactly exactly, because it matters. It matters how it makes

505
00:28:53,799 --> 00:28:57,200
you feel, It matters how the other person responds, It

506
00:28:57,279 --> 00:29:03,160
matters how we perceive the interaction going. Like I think

507
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,519
we can see Ebenezer, like we already kind of talked

508
00:29:06,519 --> 00:29:10,440
about him kind of having to shift his reality to

509
00:29:10,839 --> 00:29:13,920
make it make sense for himself. Right, he has to

510
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,920
talk about it in this really specific way of no,

511
00:29:17,039 --> 00:29:18,640
like it was fine, it wasn't a big deal.

512
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 2: Well more so it made me the man I am today.

513
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly like I wouldn't be who I was

514
00:29:23,599 --> 00:29:26,480
if I didn't have to go through all this hard shit, right,

515
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:33,119
And I think, and that's very and it makes a

516
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,079
lot of sense that people come to that conclusion. And

517
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,000
it also makes it really hard to be flexible around

518
00:29:40,119 --> 00:29:43,640
things that we actually needed and things that we really

519
00:29:43,759 --> 00:29:47,319
wanted and needed somebody to say or point out or

520
00:29:47,319 --> 00:29:50,400
support us with. And so it would make a lot

521
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:55,279
of sense that any attachment that Ebenezer makes is on

522
00:29:55,519 --> 00:30:00,200
his terms only, which means he is not allowing himself

523
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,640
to really be connected to anyone else because that's not

524
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:04,960
safe for him.

525
00:30:05,319 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 2: It is absolutely not. And I think as you were

526
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,319
talking about that, it occurred to me that there's another

527
00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:15,519
side of the attachment thing that becomes really apparent in

528
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:23,400
behavior later on. Is that we learn vicariously by watching

529
00:30:23,519 --> 00:30:26,599
our caregivers and our parents. But one of the things

530
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,960
that people don't often connect to is that we learn

531
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:38,400
whatever is adaptive. We don't just learn whatever is societally approvable.

532
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:44,039
And when you think about Scrooge, he is more closely

533
00:30:44,119 --> 00:30:48,839
mirroring the behavior of his father, who showed him that

534
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,839
you can successfully lock out somebody you don't like, and

535
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,440
that if you take on that behavior, you can be stronger,

536
00:30:58,759 --> 00:31:02,119
even though it hurt Young Scrooge. Old Scrooge who forms

537
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,720
this narrative just made me the man I am today.

538
00:31:04,799 --> 00:31:07,920
All these beatings and ignoring and being left alone, and

539
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,359
I learned to be smart and I learned to survive. No,

540
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,799
that's adapting. But he also took on the knowledge and

541
00:31:14,839 --> 00:31:19,720
then later mirrored and mimicked it by acting exactly like

542
00:31:19,799 --> 00:31:23,279
the person that hurt him, and that shows up in

543
00:31:23,359 --> 00:31:26,319
behavior all the time.

544
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,759
Speaker 3: I mean, have you seen the new Frankenstein movie?

545
00:31:29,799 --> 00:31:30,759
Speaker 2: Not yet?

546
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: It's freaking awesome. You need to see it on the

547
00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:36,640
biggest TV you have. It's so but it is like

548
00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:40,640
exactly what you just said happens, which is I have

549
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,839
I have become my father that I hate and that

550
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,839
I've been doing all this to spite, but yet I

551
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:48,799
become him.

552
00:31:49,079 --> 00:31:52,559
Speaker 2: Yes, and I'll watch it on my biggest TV upstairs

553
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,400
one of these days. The biggest TV I have is

554
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,200
pretty good and I would like to see it. Looks

555
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:57,799
like it's good.

556
00:31:57,839 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: And I think, as we're talking about this, what it's

557
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,680
bringing to mind for me is I worked with a

558
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,799
lot of kids that have been diagnosed with reactive attachment disorder,

559
00:32:08,119 --> 00:32:13,400
which is when a kid has been abused neglected, But

560
00:32:13,519 --> 00:32:17,119
really a lot of it is more about that you

561
00:32:17,119 --> 00:32:20,519
didn't have a solid attachment to someone, either because you

562
00:32:20,519 --> 00:32:26,279
were bounced around to different caregivers, or your caregivers didn't

563
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,759
take care of you well and neglected do in some

564
00:32:29,799 --> 00:32:33,119
capacity or mistreated you in some capacity, or even if

565
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,920
you had a caregiver that maybe was around, but they

566
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:42,160
were depressed and so you didn't get the emotional attachment

567
00:32:42,799 --> 00:32:45,759
stuff that we need to get from a caregiver in

568
00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:50,160
our life. And when you were talking earlierhand about hoarding,

569
00:32:51,599 --> 00:32:54,759
that also connects to this for me in that when

570
00:32:54,759 --> 00:32:58,079
I worked with kids that had reactive attachment disorder or

571
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,200
RAD for short, they would do a lot of hoarding

572
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,279
behaviors because they didn't feel like they were in control.

573
00:33:07,039 --> 00:33:11,200
They knew that people, the adults in their lives didn't

574
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:16,000
necessarily want to or were able to take care of them.

575
00:33:16,519 --> 00:33:18,480
And so a way that you survive, like you guys

576
00:33:18,519 --> 00:33:20,160
are both talking about, like the ways that you adapt

577
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,920
and survive is by hoarding resources when they are available

578
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:25,240
to you.

579
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,279
Speaker 3: So kids with RAD will hoard food and.

580
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: Not fun food, Like I've had kids with RAD that

581
00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:36,160
would like hoard like cake mix, like the box powder

582
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,960
that's not good by itself, or like cans of vegetables.

583
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,640
Like it's not like kids that are stealing candy bars

584
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:46,200
and cookies.

585
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 3: It's just truly like they're seeing.

586
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: Food and they're like, I don't know when I will

587
00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:53,720
see food again, so I'm gonna take it. And that

588
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,960
can be when they've even lived with a secure caregiver

589
00:33:56,119 --> 00:33:59,119
for a while, those behaviors will show up. And so

590
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,960
I think, like another version of this is what we're

591
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,160
seeing with Ebenezer, which is I can control how much

592
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,119
money I make. I've learned how to do that, Like

593
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:11,519
I develop the skills to do that with the few

594
00:34:11,559 --> 00:34:16,440
caregivers slash teachers I've had, And it does make you

595
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,639
feel safer because it doesn't involve anybody else. And so

596
00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:22,320
when I've worked with kids that have more of the

597
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:27,519
inhibited RAD type, which is him in a lot of ways,

598
00:34:27,519 --> 00:34:29,639
which is I don't really get close to anybody. I

599
00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:32,320
don't let anyone get close to me. I act like

600
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,440
everyone can go fuck themselves, and I will get what

601
00:34:36,519 --> 00:34:38,079
I can and I can get it, and I will

602
00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:42,000
keep it for myself, I wouldn't be shocked if maybe

603
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,000
when Ebenezer was a kid, and if I worked with him,

604
00:34:44,039 --> 00:34:48,039
I maybe could have given him a RAD diagnosis based

605
00:34:48,079 --> 00:34:51,239
on him circumstances. But I think, yeah, this hoarding of

606
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,280
wealth can be a definite version of that.

607
00:34:56,119 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure it can be. And as you watch

608
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,599
him in this old age before the spirit's intervened, think

609
00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:07,440
about how many losses he's had and how much further

610
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,599
into that he retreats each time. You see it as

611
00:35:10,599 --> 00:35:14,280
a kid, but he's also when he's old. He's lost

612
00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:21,199
his sister, he's lost his business partner and friend, he's

613
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:26,159
lost Belle. Who is left besides cratch It that he

614
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,519
attaches to and the way he attaches to cratch It

615
00:35:29,599 --> 00:35:30,599
is pretty rad.

616
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,159
Speaker 1: And his nephew too, And he has someone in his

617
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,960
life who is like truly open arms to him, right,

618
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,679
like you can do he can do whatever to his nephew,

619
00:35:41,679 --> 00:35:43,760
and his nephew is still like, yo, you can come

620
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:44,679
to Christmas.

621
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 3: We'll always have.

622
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,519
Speaker 2: You and his cnicle gun when you're not here.

623
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, And his.

624
00:35:52,079 --> 00:35:57,280
Speaker 1: Total removal response rejection response is yeah, a form of RAD.

625
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,960
I've worked with plenty of kids that they get adopt

626
00:36:00,119 --> 00:36:02,840
did or they get into a caregiver situation with a

627
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,320
secure caregiver for years sometimes before I worked with them,

628
00:36:06,639 --> 00:36:10,199
and they would still be very rejecting, like don't I

629
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,079
don't want to be hugged, I don't want to be touched,

630
00:36:12,119 --> 00:36:13,760
I don't want to don't tell me you love me.

631
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,960
I'm not going to tell you I love you. And

632
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,880
when I work with the parents, I would encourage the

633
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,159
parents to chill the fuck out. And what I mean

634
00:36:23,199 --> 00:36:27,079
by that is, don't put pressure on the kid. They

635
00:36:27,159 --> 00:36:29,400
need time. Maybe it's going to be years and years

636
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:34,440
and years, if at all, to really know if they

637
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,159
can be vulnerable to you, Because that's really what it

638
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,079
is is can I am I ever going to be

639
00:36:40,079 --> 00:36:45,199
safe enough, safe enough to trust enough to be squishy

640
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,960
and vulnerable to you? Because it's not just whether Ebenezer

641
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,719
feels love for his nephew or love for Crashed, or

642
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,639
love who for whoever, for Bell, which.

643
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 2: He does in his way, but the more the culture

644
00:36:57,039 --> 00:36:58,599
he gets, the more he rejects.

645
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not that's much whether he's capable of feeling

646
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,360
love for them. It's whether he feels like it won't

647
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:11,920
kill him emotionally literally maybe even to be open about

648
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:18,719
that love. That's really what can feel almost intolerably uncomfortable

649
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,480
and unsafe when someone has has deep attachment wounds. Is

650
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,719
then me asking them to open up to someone is

651
00:37:28,119 --> 00:37:29,840
truly like I'm saying, I want you to rip your

652
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,480
heart out, and I want to hold it in your hands,

653
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,440
and I want you to put it in someone else's

654
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,159
hands who you just have to trust. Isn't gonna like

655
00:37:38,199 --> 00:37:41,480
take that heart and just shove it between their fists

656
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,400
and squeeze it and then shove it onto the ground

657
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:44,880
and step on it. Because that's what his parents did.

658
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:46,400
You know what I mean, Like, that's where these woundes

659
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,960
come from. Is you had someone when you were a kid.

660
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,840
They did not hold your heart the way they should

661
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,679
have if they did it all. And so how are

662
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:57,920
you to trust that anyone else could do that?

663
00:37:58,440 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 3: Why would you do that?

664
00:38:00,519 --> 00:38:04,119
Speaker 2: And his nephew, at least the book implies. It never

665
00:38:04,159 --> 00:38:08,000
clearly states, but his sister died young, but it seems

666
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:13,440
to imply she died, possibly in childbirth, So yet another

667
00:38:13,639 --> 00:38:19,559
extra layer of complication of accepting that nephew. Because yet again,

668
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,159
something new and good can come into your life and

669
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,960
take away from you. So should you trust it? Should

670
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,599
you let it in? You might want to let it

671
00:38:28,639 --> 00:38:34,079
in because it's the last piece, but also, nah, that's

672
00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:36,440
going to get me hurt, so you stay frozen out.

673
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,760
When I worked with kids, so there's one kid in

674
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,079
particular who was absolutely head read. And remember he eventually

675
00:38:43,079 --> 00:38:46,559
got adopted, and it was a struggle at first, and

676
00:38:46,599 --> 00:38:49,760
you'd see like he was really attaching hard to this

677
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,840
person that was adopting him. And then once the adoptions

678
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:58,480
started getting closer, behaviors turned up almost as a test,

679
00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:02,079
will you love me at my worst?

680
00:39:03,039 --> 00:39:05,679
Speaker 1: No, they will test the absolute shit out of you.

681
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,719
Which is also what I used to have to coach

682
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,960
parents through, is that this kid is going to test

683
00:39:12,159 --> 00:39:19,440
and your job is to stay calm and consistent with

684
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,559
them and just keep saying like, no matter what happens,

685
00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:26,440
I'm not going anywhere. Do you wonder as you're saying that,

686
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,400
do you wonder with Bell if some of what he

687
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,719
was doing was like unconscious testing of her.

688
00:39:33,079 --> 00:39:35,599
Speaker 2: I think he was probably at that point a little

689
00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:39,159
too young to recognize it, but he may have been.

690
00:39:39,199 --> 00:39:41,639
I think some part of it was. But I think

691
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,679
at that point he's so locked into the value that

692
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,079
he had that the only way he felt he could

693
00:39:49,079 --> 00:39:52,400
be good enough was to lean into the strength side

694
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:53,639
of it. So it's kind of like a missing a

695
00:39:53,639 --> 00:39:56,760
forest for the trees kind of thing. Hey, I need

696
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:58,719
to have business needs to be doing well enough that

697
00:39:59,199 --> 00:40:00,880
I can support you and you can marry me, so

698
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,119
you don't leave me. That I have to be good enough,

699
00:40:04,119 --> 00:40:05,320
and you have to see me it's good enough, and

700
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:06,519
I have to see me it's good enough, and that

701
00:40:06,599 --> 00:40:10,840
the only way your silly feelings can't be in those

702
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,760
are silly. It has to be I have to have

703
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,639
enough business sense that it makes sense on the ledger

704
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:18,760
for us to be married and me to be a

705
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,079
good husband, where she just wants him to be present

706
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,159
and there and him, you know, attend to her. And

707
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,159
I think at some point she tells him that she

708
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,480
feels like she's become like a golden idol or something,

709
00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:34,360
or that business has become a golden idol. There's some

710
00:40:35,199 --> 00:40:39,519
mention of that, like really elevating how she feels like

711
00:40:39,599 --> 00:40:42,400
she is left behind and not seen anymore and that's

712
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:43,519
why she left.

713
00:40:45,119 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: And what you're saying is is so real in the

714
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:54,079
sense that when you grow up in this situation Ebenezer

715
00:40:54,079 --> 00:40:57,639
did with his parents. Also, it wouldn't ever occur to

716
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,960
him that someone would just want to be with him

717
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,760
because they love him. Like the idea of Belle not

718
00:41:05,039 --> 00:41:08,559
caring about the money stuff as much, that he doesn't

719
00:41:08,559 --> 00:41:11,880
have to demonstrate his value via money because she already

720
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,400
believes that he is value is like another thing that

721
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,639
would be hitting him like an alien belief.

722
00:41:19,159 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 3: So it does maybe wonder too with him.

723
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,760
Speaker 1: Another way to think of it is maybe it really

724
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:29,039
did surprise him that it would push her away that

725
00:41:29,119 --> 00:41:30,920
he has to wait untill he is enough money. Like

726
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,440
I could also see because of how bought in he

727
00:41:33,599 --> 00:41:35,679
is to that as a value that of course she

728
00:41:35,679 --> 00:41:38,559
wouldn't want to get married either until I have enough money.

729
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,119
Speaker 3: And so we're both on the same page about that.

730
00:41:41,159 --> 00:41:45,199
Speaker 1: So I also wonder if maybe it was quite shocking

731
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:51,000
for him that that would actually break them apart instead

732
00:41:51,039 --> 00:41:54,800
of something that she would have like an inherent understanding of.

733
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 2: I think that you're right that I think it does

734
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:05,199
surprise him. But he also doesn't do anything to say no,

735
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,280
wait stop, he doesn't.

736
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: That's the rat of it all too, Like he's like

737
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:11,920
well see there you go. Of course, on how he

738
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,440
just walks away in that scene, right, she's singing and

739
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,559
he's just like, Okay, well I guess this ain't gonna work,

740
00:42:17,599 --> 00:42:18,400
so he just walks away.

741
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 2: It's like.

742
00:42:20,679 --> 00:42:24,079
Speaker 1: Having again that awareness, like he doesn't have awareness about

743
00:42:24,119 --> 00:42:28,199
what even being in the middle relationally is like, right,

744
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,039
he's only experienced the extremes, right, So when you've only

745
00:42:32,079 --> 00:42:36,519
experienced the extremes the kind of natural experiences that we have,

746
00:42:37,119 --> 00:42:39,079
seems so they're too comfortable.

747
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,599
Speaker 3: They're too they don't have.

748
00:42:42,639 --> 00:42:46,760
Speaker 1: The chaos attached to them the way that their other

749
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,480
experiences have. So that's a part of why they feel

750
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,199
so uncomfortable. You mean, like kind of when we talk

751
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,440
about like the window of tolerance in regards to trauma. Yeah,

752
00:42:57,599 --> 00:43:01,400
that when you're used to, Yeah, when we were used

753
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,079
to really elevated situations calm. It's like, i mean, like

754
00:43:05,159 --> 00:43:07,239
this is stereotype, right, And I'm sure we've all had

755
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,079
this experience with clients where they have a trauma background

756
00:43:11,159 --> 00:43:14,599
and they're finally in a relationship that's Jill, and they

757
00:43:14,599 --> 00:43:17,239
can't stop talking about how boring it is it else

758
00:43:17,599 --> 00:43:20,000
and how there's something wrong with the fact that it's

759
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:21,760
so boring and that they need to break up with

760
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:23,920
them because it's not working, And I'll be like, are

761
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,039
we bored or are we just like not so hyper

762
00:43:28,199 --> 00:43:31,679
aroused in a traumatized way that too.

763
00:43:32,639 --> 00:43:38,119
Speaker 2: I think there's real struggle with people who have been

764
00:43:38,119 --> 00:43:41,599
in really chaotic situations that they only look for and

765
00:43:41,679 --> 00:43:44,840
register the extremes but don't understand the in betweens having,

766
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,639
like normal relationships go through ups and downs, and sometimes

767
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:50,840
you're a little more connected, sometimes you're a little less,

768
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,920
but it's okay. And they're looking for that like complete

769
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,840
toxic love situation because all the love they know and

770
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:02,159
understand was toxic and came with severe ties consequences at

771
00:44:02,159 --> 00:44:05,440
the end of those toxic periods, Like if look at Scrooge,

772
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:10,960
Scrooge only learned well, if I connect emotionally and assign

773
00:44:11,039 --> 00:44:14,159
emotional value to these things, I'm gonna get the extreme

774
00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:16,920
reaction of being abandoned and my family's gonna see me

775
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:18,800
as a pain in the ass, and that my dad

776
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:20,840
hates me. So if I attached him, I'm just gonna

777
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,239
get hurt. But if I attach fully to money, I'm

778
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,639
gonna get praise, and that's gonna be really good. So

779
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:34,199
he struggles to recognize how hard he's shifting into that

780
00:44:35,079 --> 00:44:38,199
I love money and I need to do everything because

781
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,159
money is the only way that I actually feel good enough,

782
00:44:41,679 --> 00:44:46,960
and he doesn't connect. In the minute Bell shows him yep, gonna,

783
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,880
I'm gonna go, he doesn't pursue her because he's just

784
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,320
gonna get hurt, and he leans even further into money.

785
00:44:53,639 --> 00:44:58,639
Speaker 1: So sad and I feel like with I think it's

786
00:44:58,679 --> 00:45:03,480
also interesting that with Ebenezer, he the first relationship that

787
00:45:03,519 --> 00:45:07,639
he tries to repair after having the miraculous dreams and

788
00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:10,880
all that piece is a relationship that he's only connected

789
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,960
through business. With Bob Cratchittt is the first person that

790
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,599
he can even consider to repair a relationship with because

791
00:45:18,639 --> 00:45:22,679
the attachment to Bob is through is as his employee,

792
00:45:23,639 --> 00:45:26,400
and that he is almost I don't want to say

793
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:31,559
guaranteed a positive response, but more guaranteed than maybe Bell,

794
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:32,800
than maybe with Belle.

795
00:45:33,559 --> 00:45:36,079
Speaker 2: You have a very good point. The Cratches the second

796
00:45:36,119 --> 00:45:39,000
person he goes to. He goes to the nephew first,

797
00:45:40,079 --> 00:45:46,639
but he does way more work with Bob, which I

798
00:45:46,679 --> 00:45:50,880
think lends very strongly to your point. I think he

799
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,559
always connects with the nephew first because he goes to

800
00:45:53,599 --> 00:45:57,159
the family bond, but he doesn't stay very long. He

801
00:45:57,199 --> 00:45:59,119
just kind of he kind of like hits and miss

802
00:45:59,159 --> 00:46:00,960
unlets his nephew know, like, Hey, I am going to

803
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,519
come see you on Christmas. But then also he dips out.

804
00:46:04,559 --> 00:46:07,679
And I know in this version, like the nephew shows

805
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:09,880
up at Cratchit's and they have like a big party.

806
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,440
I don't think that happens in the other ones.

807
00:46:14,159 --> 00:46:17,599
Speaker 1: But you're right in that with Bob, he can use

808
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,719
the language that he's already comfortable speaking, Like the way

809
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,880
that he shows Bob love and to repair the relationship

810
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,360
is I will give you a raise, I'll pay off

811
00:46:28,519 --> 00:46:32,960
your house, and like I'll help tiny Tim get what

812
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:38,119
he needs, like I'll spoil you monetarily as a way

813
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:43,920
to become attached with each other, Which isn't I mean,

814
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,800
like that's it's the yeah, you're right hand, It's like

815
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:48,840
the safest way. And I don't think it's like the

816
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,239
worst thing. I think it's just him having to walk

817
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,239
before he walk before he runs.

818
00:46:53,599 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 3: I don't think it's a bad thing at all.

819
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: I think, in fact, it would be an example of

820
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,599
I talk a lot about with clients about out how

821
00:47:01,199 --> 00:47:07,000
we instead of trying to correct something with someone new,

822
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,480
why don't we choose a person that we've known for

823
00:47:10,559 --> 00:47:15,119
a while and share something with them first to see

824
00:47:15,119 --> 00:47:20,519
if there's a better outcome, right, Because people always want

825
00:47:20,559 --> 00:47:24,119
to try it out on someone new. They want to

826
00:47:24,159 --> 00:47:27,239
wait until they have this new experience so that they

827
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,719
can show out these new ideas and awareness that they

828
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,559
now have of themselves. And that's when boundary setting can

829
00:47:34,599 --> 00:47:37,360
really fail when we try to do it with someone

830
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,800
new versus with someone that we already have a connection.

831
00:47:40,559 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 2: With and end up love bombing and not recognizing that

832
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:50,079
someone else might look at that and go WHOA way

833
00:47:50,119 --> 00:47:55,039
too much, way too soon. Yeah, and we can throw

834
00:47:55,119 --> 00:47:58,880
the other person who's trying to do this miraculous recovery

835
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:00,480
of all the things that have always been wrong with me,

836
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:05,639
which is just such an ADHD thing to do. But

837
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:07,599
these people that go through this exact thing you're talking

838
00:48:07,639 --> 00:48:10,119
about the consequence of that can be people who have

839
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:16,280
not encountered what is happening here, going like, ah way

840
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,920
too much. What we see in that cycle is that

841
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,679
this person is reaching out for connection and they're showing

842
00:48:21,679 --> 00:48:24,519
a bit for connection, and it's getting rejected because they're

843
00:48:24,599 --> 00:48:27,239
too much and they're showing too much, and they're trying

844
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:33,760
to fix and place way too much emotional weight on

845
00:48:34,119 --> 00:48:37,239
this relationship, and the other person's like, I'm trying to

846
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:39,599
figure out if I like hanging out with you. This

847
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,039
is a little bit, a little bit early. And there's

848
00:48:43,039 --> 00:48:44,880
a line from Supertroopers. I don't know if I've said

849
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,719
on this show before, but I do love Supertroopers. It

850
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:55,559
makes me laugh. Is desperation is a stinky cologne, And man,

851
00:48:55,599 --> 00:48:57,079
is that not more true in a relationship and you

852
00:48:57,079 --> 00:48:58,920
feel somebody trying to do that thing. Hannah talk about

853
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:00,639
it like I'm gonna fix everything it's ever been wrong

854
00:49:00,639 --> 00:49:02,119
because I learned this new skill and now I'm gonna

855
00:49:02,119 --> 00:49:04,159
fix everything. And everything with you is just gonna work out,

856
00:49:04,159 --> 00:49:06,719
and you're gonna be the person in my dreams. And

857
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,880
I'm pretty sure that's what the movie with Joseph Gordon

858
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:12,800
Levin that we did was about five Hundred Days of

859
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:14,880
the Summer kind of about that thing, and like, no, you

860
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:16,960
fell in love with the idea of a person, not

861
00:49:17,039 --> 00:49:17,480
the person.

862
00:49:18,199 --> 00:49:23,039
Speaker 1: And it's also a shortcut, right, I'm gonna start over

863
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:27,760
fresh with someone new, instead of having to do the

864
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,480
more vulnerable work, which is go to someone that already

865
00:49:31,559 --> 00:49:35,760
has a history with me and I have a reputation

866
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:40,039
with them, and I have to see the true vulnerability

867
00:49:40,159 --> 00:49:43,400
is like showing up and then seeing if things can

868
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,559
turn around. Is like we're like I was kind of

869
00:49:46,559 --> 00:49:48,960
talking about, like opening up my heart a little bit

870
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,679
and seeing if they can receive it or not, and

871
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:59,880
tolerating that experience, which is much more brutal than or

872
00:50:00,039 --> 00:50:02,519
feels much more brutal than going to someone new who

873
00:50:02,559 --> 00:50:05,280
has no idea of who you are that you can

874
00:50:05,519 --> 00:50:10,599
create a new idea with. And his nephew speaks through

875
00:50:10,639 --> 00:50:13,400
the language of love, you know. His nephew is very

876
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,800
like warm and fuzzy, and that is really uncomfortable. It's

877
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,280
making me think of because Hannah and I watched Scrooge

878
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:24,119
last night, which is the Bill Murray retelling of this story.

879
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,599
And actually Bill Murray, I think, does a really good job,

880
00:50:27,639 --> 00:50:32,280
maybe the best job, of conveying this thing we're talking

881
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:34,320
about right now.

882
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 3: But in his story it's his brother, not his nephew.

883
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:43,079
Speaker 1: And the way that Bill Murray looks so not distraught,

884
00:50:43,159 --> 00:50:45,199
I don't know if you have a better word for it, Hannah.

885
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:50,079
But he looks so emotionally uncomfortable around his younger brother,

886
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:52,400
and not because he doesn't like his brother. You can

887
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,119
actually tell that the more he likes his brother, the

888
00:50:55,159 --> 00:50:56,719
more he's like, I gotta get the fuck out of here.

889
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:02,199
It's like he can't tolerate being around his brother because

890
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,239
of all the warm and fuzzy energy around his brother,

891
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,320
and how he doesn't know how to deal with that,

892
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,239
and so he just doesn't even try, and he just

893
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:14,320
like skips out. And I think that's a really realistic

894
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:18,519
version of a really realistic portrayal of what we're discussing,

895
00:51:18,559 --> 00:51:22,320
which is how when you aren't used to these kind

896
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,519
of things being around it.

897
00:51:24,679 --> 00:51:26,039
Speaker 3: Will make you uncomfortable.

898
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,639
Speaker 1: And it's good when you work with clients to name

899
00:51:29,679 --> 00:51:32,599
that so that they're prepared for that and so they

900
00:51:32,599 --> 00:51:37,159
don't misunderstand the discomfort for like I'm doing the wrong

901
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:41,280
thing or this isn't right, or however they might very

902
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:46,480
understandably miss construe or identify the discomfort they're feeling. That

903
00:51:46,599 --> 00:51:49,599
It is one of the many things in therapy where

904
00:51:49,639 --> 00:51:52,320
you have the opposite reaction that then you think you

905
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:56,000
would have, and so it is our duty as therapist

906
00:51:56,039 --> 00:51:59,159
to give people a heads up so that they don't

907
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,119
free can leave, which I can understand if they did,

908
00:52:02,519 --> 00:52:04,360
and that they have to sit in the discomfort of

909
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:09,440
the squishiness of the vulnerability. But yeah, his nephew, even

910
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,519
though you think he'd be like the safest option, in

911
00:52:11,519 --> 00:52:14,000
some ways, I think will be the hardest for him.

912
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:21,599
Speaker 2: I'll definitely be the hardest, agree, because there's real emotional

913
00:52:21,599 --> 00:52:23,599
connection there and real work to do that's going to

914
00:52:23,639 --> 00:52:27,239
go far beyond just that employer relationship, no doubt.

915
00:52:27,639 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's a good point too that with cratch It,

916
00:52:30,079 --> 00:52:34,679
they have that natural boundary, yeah, of employer and employee,

917
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:40,400
and so he can use that to his advantage, whether.

918
00:52:40,199 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 3: He's and I don't.

919
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 1: And I'll say I don't think he's doing that consciously,

920
00:52:43,159 --> 00:52:47,519
but that there is safety with that natural boundary, yep.

921
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 2: And he can yet again step in and use the

922
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,000
money that he's learned to control and stabilize the world

923
00:52:54,039 --> 00:52:58,199
with to control and stabilize that relationship. Cratch It will

924
00:52:58,199 --> 00:53:01,920
not leave songs he pays improperly and you know, keeps

925
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,320
this little boy from dying of whatever disease he has,

926
00:53:05,639 --> 00:53:10,440
and then he can have a pseudo Marley to have

927
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:12,920
a connection with, but just better. But he doesn't have

928
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,480
to reinvent the wheel because it gets real clear that

929
00:53:15,559 --> 00:53:18,559
the relationship with the nephew is gonna it's going to

930
00:53:18,639 --> 00:53:21,280
take some more time because also the nephew is not

931
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,760
going to know that Scrooge saw him with the ghost

932
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,920
of Christmas present, going well, it's not a rat and

933
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,199
it's not a cockroach. What's something else that nobody wants

934
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:34,480
at Christmas? Oh Scrooge, Oh, that's going to take some

935
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:38,880
time for him to repair. Even though the movie shows

936
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,599
us he's recognizing like, oh, yeah, I'm kind of an asshole.

937
00:53:41,679 --> 00:53:44,440
Huh Yeah, that's not the way emotions work. You might

938
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:48,239
have context for it in that moment when you're vulnerable

939
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:51,119
and learning, but the more protective voice and parts of

940
00:53:51,119 --> 00:53:54,639
you were going to show up later and be like, ah,

941
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,159
this motherfucker inviting you to dinner is the same one

942
00:53:57,159 --> 00:53:59,039
that said you were less desirable than a rat and

943
00:53:59,079 --> 00:54:05,320
a cockroach, Right, that's who him. M M humbug.

944
00:54:06,559 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 1: All right, let's take a break care and we'll be

945
00:54:08,079 --> 00:54:13,039
right back to talk about values and the divine intervention

946
00:54:13,599 --> 00:54:18,559
aspect of this story, all right, So what made me

947
00:54:18,599 --> 00:54:22,119
think of that, Ben, is what you said about the

948
00:54:22,159 --> 00:54:26,559
context in which he receives Scrooge that information. Is that

949
00:54:26,639 --> 00:54:30,840
Something that does propel the story obviously is the fact

950
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:37,400
that he's having a wild experience that is forcing him

951
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:42,079
to confront his past trauma and attachment wounds, but also

952
00:54:42,679 --> 00:54:46,000
his values. How that reaches through to all the parts

953
00:54:46,039 --> 00:54:48,679
of his life, both past, present and the future.

954
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 2: It sure does. And it's real clear that it's not

955
00:54:54,119 --> 00:54:57,719
just a bit of bad meat or a piece of

956
00:54:58,519 --> 00:55:02,840
rotten cheese. I know that, right, But instead it's a

957
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:07,519
divine intervention with the intent to make a change on

958
00:55:07,599 --> 00:55:12,679
a profoundly lost man, to keep him from getting more lost,

959
00:55:13,199 --> 00:55:16,719
and sort of the story kind of implies that the

960
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:22,400
divine intervention is coming from Marley or someone releasing Marlee

961
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,119
to go talk to him as the only voice that

962
00:55:24,199 --> 00:55:29,239
will reach him. But the first person that comes to

963
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:31,800
talk to him from beyond the grave is Jacob Marley.

964
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:36,039
All in chains with chain to the money, which is

965
00:55:36,079 --> 00:55:40,159
a really powerful vision that's also been enduring of like

966
00:55:41,159 --> 00:55:43,920
carrying around all these heavy chains, chain to the things,

967
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:48,599
change to your sins and being. He kind of implied

968
00:55:48,639 --> 00:55:51,400
he's not necessarily stuck in hell, but stuck in purgatory

969
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,320
with these chains to carry around until he can pay

970
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:59,599
for his sins. If ever and warning Scrooge, hey, I'm

971
00:55:59,639 --> 00:56:04,159
still stuck here. You have time. I don't. But we

972
00:56:04,199 --> 00:56:09,400
see these values that he's developed start to crack after

973
00:56:09,519 --> 00:56:13,039
each of these spirits start showing him his own life.

974
00:56:13,039 --> 00:56:15,679
Moment after moment, he's forced to consider, how did I

975
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:21,119
form these beliefs and do I still believe them? Value

976
00:56:21,159 --> 00:56:23,920
formation is a pretty powerful component of how we see

977
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,239
and understand the world, and if you talk about things

978
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:30,159
through a cognitive behavioral lens, they're the deepest and most

979
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:34,960
difficult layer to challenge and change. You can't challenge and

980
00:56:35,039 --> 00:56:40,039
change them without a very big event happening. Something's got

981
00:56:40,079 --> 00:56:44,800
to really make you reconsider how you view things, or

982
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:48,199
you won't because these are the things that I've been taught.

983
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:51,320
They're tried and true. When we think about Scrooge, what

984
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,079
do we see his values as well?

985
00:56:55,119 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 1: I would say he values money, obviously, but I would

986
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:05,039
say underneath money what he values is independence, hard work,

987
00:57:06,119 --> 00:57:11,039
hyper individualism. You know, even earlier when they were talking

988
00:57:11,079 --> 00:57:16,400
about the two guys come in to get donations and

989
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,679
he's like, why don't they work hard or something like that.

990
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:25,239
He's like, he is espousing this idea that, yeah, bootstrap

991
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:29,960
shit like the meritocracy lie that our country loves, which

992
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,239
is that if you just worked hard enough that you

993
00:57:33,639 --> 00:57:36,159
would be fine, which in his story I guess technically

994
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,599
is true in that he just devoted his whole self

995
00:57:39,639 --> 00:57:44,880
to making money and he is idolizing that about himself. Right,

996
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:47,440
So I think he would say that he values hard work,

997
00:57:48,199 --> 00:57:54,960
and he values being financially literate and being I don't

998
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:56,760
think he would say cheap or whatever they call him.

999
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,639
I think he would just say like responsible, frugal, you know,

1000
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:09,320
not concerned with frivolities. And underneath that value though that

1001
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:13,320
I don't think he would identify, is how that's connected

1002
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:21,199
to his feelings of like safety, security, control, power, all

1003
00:58:21,199 --> 00:58:23,880
that kind of stuff that makes him feel like he's

1004
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:24,440
in control.

1005
00:58:24,519 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 3: Because that's also why not to get on a whole tangent.

1006
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:30,039
Speaker 1: All those people are so invested in this idea of

1007
00:58:30,159 --> 00:58:34,199
meritocracy in America, and people will I mean, I get

1008
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,360
into arguments sometimes with people in my life about the

1009
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:40,199
idea of meritocracy, and I think it's It goes back

1010
00:58:40,239 --> 00:58:43,280
to this idea that it is. It is a safe,

1011
00:58:43,679 --> 00:58:47,280
comforting idea for a lot of people that if you

1012
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:50,079
just work hard, you can kind of have total control

1013
00:58:50,119 --> 00:58:54,039
over your future and over what happens to you. And

1014
00:58:54,079 --> 00:58:55,519
so I think he's in that trap.

1015
00:58:55,760 --> 00:59:01,639
Speaker 2: Well, Scrooge is from the aristocracy already. I mean, yes,

1016
00:59:01,719 --> 00:59:04,360
he's in that trap, but he's in that trap of

1017
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,880
trying to apply it to other people while not recognizing

1018
00:59:07,119 --> 00:59:08,119
he's above.

1019
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 3: It exactly because he's exactly.

1020
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:14,159
Speaker 2: I mean, that's basically That's all Dickens's work is examining

1021
00:59:14,239 --> 00:59:19,440
the Victorian England and how fucking ridiculous it is that

1022
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:24,079
the rich just prey on the poor. That's David Copperfield.

1023
00:59:24,119 --> 00:59:27,639
All these stories that are about that, and all of

1024
00:59:27,679 --> 00:59:30,440
them have that lesson in there. It's clear that Dickens

1025
00:59:30,519 --> 00:59:35,880
was trying to kind of create that message of like hey, hey, hey, no, like,

1026
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:39,840
are you serious right now, Oliver Twist, Like we're you

1027
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,119
see where these kids are living in a workhouse. Who's

1028
00:59:43,159 --> 00:59:45,840
making money off that? It ain't them. They're going to

1029
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,519
be living this kind of life, working in workhouses their

1030
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:54,559
entire life unless something magical happens, some big intervention, and

1031
00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:04,760
Scrooge is absolutely lampooning that idea that the meritocracy is real. Like, no,

1032
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:08,599
if you were born rich and you had all these advantages,

1033
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,400
then you can expect to be rich. But get out

1034
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:15,320
of here rich men thinking that all these poor people

1035
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:18,320
can just work really hard like I did. Like you

1036
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:20,559
mean at that private, fancy boarding school you went to

1037
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,119
and weren't in the workhouses that one. That's where you

1038
01:00:23,199 --> 01:00:25,800
learned all these things from people your parents paid to

1039
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:26,519
teach them, do.

1040
01:00:26,519 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 1: You, And that's where he gets challenged values wise. I

1041
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:34,840
think with like being shown Bob Cratchett, right, is that

1042
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,199
that's also someone who works really hard, who works his

1043
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:41,239
fucking ass off, because Scrooge makes him work his ass off,

1044
01:00:41,719 --> 01:00:45,320
and yet he lives in a shithole. He can't get

1045
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:51,280
his kid proper care that they are not doing well. Nope, financially,

1046
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:55,360
even though that guy is working his absolute ass off

1047
01:00:55,519 --> 01:00:59,440
and really trying to be everything that Scrooge wants.

1048
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:02,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, he won't even pay for him to be warm

1049
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:09,119
at work, which means he's probable to get sick and

1050
01:01:09,199 --> 01:01:13,039
die himself, and then his family will land in the poorhouse.

1051
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:19,880
It's really quite a pointed message of no, rich Man,

1052
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:23,360
it is not quite what you think. And yet people,

1053
01:01:23,639 --> 01:01:27,800
I love that story, and yet again it's the fucking point.

1054
01:01:28,239 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: And it's very difficult to, like you were saying, challenge

1055
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,920
our values like we I mean, that's why I think

1056
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:38,559
in his story, he has like the most bananas experience

1057
01:01:38,719 --> 01:01:41,000
where it really blows the doors off his brain right,

1058
01:01:41,039 --> 01:01:44,039
like he's being visited by ghosts, Like even the introduction

1059
01:01:44,079 --> 01:01:48,280
of Marley, I'm sure is trying to like soften his

1060
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:51,960
brain for the experience he's about to have, like we're

1061
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,840
going to crack this bitch open because it's about to.

1062
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:56,559
Speaker 3: Get blown to smotherings.

1063
01:01:57,199 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 1: And so we do see people have big value shifts

1064
01:02:01,039 --> 01:02:03,639
when something bananas happens in their lives, like in your

1065
01:02:03,679 --> 01:02:07,599
death experience or a big loss of some sort, and

1066
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:10,880
they feel ready to challenge the idea that what they

1067
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:14,719
have been devoted to, the ideas that they've really cashed

1068
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:21,079
in on, maybe they're not really it. And that takes

1069
01:02:21,119 --> 01:02:26,639
a lot of humility and introspection, like you really have

1070
01:02:26,719 --> 01:02:32,239
to be willing to break down the way that you've lived.

1071
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:35,679
I mean, in the religious aspect, they call deconstructing. I

1072
01:02:35,719 --> 01:02:39,960
think that term is from when people leave evangelical Christianity specifically,

1073
01:02:40,119 --> 01:02:43,400
that's the way I've heard it be used, but I

1074
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:46,760
think it's an apt term, like you have to deconstruct

1075
01:02:48,079 --> 01:02:51,079
yourself and your identity and what you believe to be

1076
01:02:51,119 --> 01:02:53,599
true about the world from like the studs up perhaps,

1077
01:02:54,519 --> 01:02:56,360
and he would have to do that, and that's a

1078
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:58,880
really hard thing for most people to do, and it's

1079
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:00,679
a very confronting thing to do.

1080
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:04,719
Speaker 2: Even on a non religious and non values thing. Once

1081
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:10,360
you started talking about deconstruction, American history class started occurring

1082
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:13,639
in my head again, which you know, seems a little

1083
01:03:13,679 --> 01:03:16,599
relevant right now as we talk about a British movie.

1084
01:03:17,119 --> 01:03:22,239
But the post war period, for the Civil War, the reconstruction,

1085
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,360
the post Civil War period was called the reconstruction. And

1086
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,280
it wasn't called the reconstruction just because we were literally

1087
01:03:28,599 --> 01:03:34,840
rebuilding things after the war. It was reconstructing the ideas

1088
01:03:35,639 --> 01:03:40,119
and values of what our nation was to be because

1089
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:44,519
slavery was now ended. And yes, as from our you know,

1090
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:46,840
two movies ago, we did we know it got a

1091
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:50,159
little complicated and the change was a little resisted, and

1092
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:52,519
not just a little, a lot resisted, and a lot

1093
01:03:52,559 --> 01:03:55,639
of horrible things still happened with Jim Crow laws and segregation.

1094
01:03:55,880 --> 01:04:00,840
Things went through an intense period of revamping what the

1095
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:02,400
entire world is going to look like. And it took

1096
01:04:02,519 --> 01:04:05,679
war to do that, to go like, hey, you can't

1097
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:09,239
keep slaves anymore. You just can't. Your economy cannot be

1098
01:04:09,239 --> 01:04:12,880
based on that. We can't keep doing that. And the North,

1099
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,000
you're lying if you think you weren't benefiting because you

1100
01:04:15,039 --> 01:04:17,519
were buying goods from the South, So like we're all

1101
01:04:17,599 --> 01:04:19,880
kind of participating in and if we're not, well, slaver

1102
01:04:20,039 --> 01:04:21,599
is not legal. And North you're still buying shit from

1103
01:04:21,599 --> 01:04:24,400
the South. You're benefiting on that. And they had to

1104
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:28,360
recorrect all those values that were formed. People must go

1105
01:04:28,679 --> 01:04:33,719
deconstruct and reconstruct. That's what happens during military training. That

1106
01:04:34,039 --> 01:04:36,519
happens work training is what happens a lot of things.

1107
01:04:36,519 --> 01:04:39,280
You have to go through periods where something big has

1108
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:41,360
to change in your life that forces you to confront

1109
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:44,079
the old habits, old beliefs, old ways of doing things

1110
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:47,559
and make them invalid and incompatible with the present way

1111
01:04:47,559 --> 01:04:50,480
of living. And that's what happens to Scrooge is he's

1112
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:52,960
forced to deconstruct, Well, these are the ways we'd be safe.

1113
01:04:53,079 --> 01:04:54,880
This is the way I keep black people locked out,

1114
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:59,400
and this is the way I'm actually better. And each

1115
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:03,199
moment we see if Scrooge's life makes us see that

1116
01:05:03,519 --> 01:05:06,639
he's in fact lying to himself and he's miserable. He

1117
01:05:06,679 --> 01:05:10,039
won't even give Bob enough coal to stay warm, and

1118
01:05:10,079 --> 01:05:13,000
he won't even give himself enough light to see and

1119
01:05:13,079 --> 01:05:15,480
read the books that he espouses to love, and he

1120
01:05:15,519 --> 01:05:19,639
only leads work when's dark. What enrichment does he have?

1121
01:05:20,239 --> 01:05:21,800
But would he ever have seen it that way had

1122
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:26,119
Spirits not come and gave him a transcendent experience?

1123
01:05:28,079 --> 01:05:35,960
Speaker 1: And for him, it's having that repeated confronting experience which

1124
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:39,079
sometimes we as therapist provide, unfortunately for our clients, but

1125
01:05:39,199 --> 01:05:45,719
fortunately where it is shown to you that you actually

1126
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:48,400
do care about the things or value the things that

1127
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:52,079
you say that you don't. So he does care about

1128
01:05:52,119 --> 01:05:55,679
what people say about him. He does care when they

1129
01:05:55,719 --> 01:06:00,400
see both the moment where he gets made fun of

1130
01:06:00,599 --> 01:06:03,760
at his nephews, but also that he cares when he

1131
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:07,760
gets spoken in a loving way at Bob Cratchett's house.

1132
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:10,639
And he cares a lot of I mean, he has

1133
01:06:10,679 --> 01:06:14,559
like a full mental breakdown when he realizes that no

1134
01:06:14,599 --> 01:06:17,199
one gives a shit at his funeral, that no one

1135
01:06:17,239 --> 01:06:19,559
cares that he died. People are talking mad shit about him.

1136
01:06:19,599 --> 01:06:23,360
They just want his stuff. And it's really challenging for

1137
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:29,880
him that you say you value money, finances, your capital,

1138
01:06:31,199 --> 01:06:34,159
and yet when people after your death are only talking

1139
01:06:34,159 --> 01:06:37,440
about your capital as what they care about with you,

1140
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:40,920
like those pigs saying like who gets his money? It

1141
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:44,639
doesn't feel good. It actually really upsets you. So be real,

1142
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:47,840
you know, in that moment, death without talking is saying,

1143
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:52,159
be real, you do care. And so what you're saying

1144
01:06:52,199 --> 01:06:55,920
you value and what your actions are connecting to value

1145
01:06:55,920 --> 01:07:03,079
wise isn't really hitting what you actually actually actually emotionally

1146
01:07:03,079 --> 01:07:03,559
care about.

1147
01:07:04,599 --> 01:07:07,639
Speaker 2: It is not And it takes yeah, busting that wide

1148
01:07:07,679 --> 01:07:09,440
open to go like this, this is actually what you

1149
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:11,639
care about, Like yeah, you notice he didn't have any

1150
01:07:11,719 --> 01:07:15,159
reaction to he knew whose jewelry that was, he knew

1151
01:07:15,199 --> 01:07:19,119
whose bed curtains those where he's just dissociating from it

1152
01:07:19,159 --> 01:07:22,440
and likese he's overloaded, But he didn't show the strong

1153
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:24,559
reaction to that. He showed the strong reaction to being

1154
01:07:24,719 --> 01:07:32,320
seen as disposable, not mattering, and the kiddie versions of

1155
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:38,360
this outside of mister Magoo's Christmas Carol really kind of

1156
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:42,639
gloss over the robbers, like this version like showed like

1157
01:07:42,679 --> 01:07:44,639
the spider and the creepy things, but you get kind

1158
01:07:44,679 --> 01:07:47,119
of caught up in that it's a creepy spider and

1159
01:07:47,199 --> 01:07:50,800
those things. To really understand what's happening here is these

1160
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,159
are people that like go in and scavenged the houses

1161
01:07:53,239 --> 01:07:55,480
of rich people that died when they think no one's looking,

1162
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:58,239
and they're really like scummy and gross, and they're breaking

1163
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:00,480
down his value into what trinkets they can steal that

1164
01:08:00,559 --> 01:08:06,519
might be worth a dollar. Yikes, You're being scavenged by

1165
01:08:07,199 --> 01:08:12,159
buzzards and crows. That's what the imagery is here. And

1166
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:15,199
him seeing that he didn't react, and he never does

1167
01:08:15,639 --> 01:08:17,840
to his things. He's never like, those are my things,

1168
01:08:18,279 --> 01:08:23,239
that's my thing. It pains him to see he's discarded,

1169
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:26,079
not that he has no more value, and that's I

1170
01:08:26,119 --> 01:08:28,439
think where you start to see a real shift. But man,

1171
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:30,319
this movie kind of let him off the hook light.

1172
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:33,279
And I don't know if Mickey's Christmas Carolyn and cover

1173
01:08:33,399 --> 01:08:35,079
that part, do they. Mister mcgoo's is the one that

1174
01:08:35,119 --> 01:08:38,720
sticks out in my head most it's like I've never even.

1175
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:43,239
Speaker 3: Heard of mister Chas either, no ever. I mean I

1176
01:08:43,319 --> 01:08:44,840
know who mister is obviously.

1177
01:08:45,159 --> 01:08:45,359
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1178
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:47,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, there's like a song from that because we

1179
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:50,600
watched that one a lot. There's like a song from

1180
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:52,600
that that sticks out of my head of him like

1181
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:55,760
singing about money ringle jingle coins out of they tingle.

1182
01:08:56,399 --> 01:09:01,600
Oh how I love the sound and like the Burglar

1183
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:06,239
people basically sing another version of that song that really lands,

1184
01:09:06,279 --> 01:09:08,239
but they're really creepy and gross, kind of like a

1185
01:09:08,319 --> 01:09:11,439
master of the House kind of song like m And.

1186
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:14,760
Speaker 1: If I was working with Ebenezer, Let's say in this hypothetical,

1187
01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:19,000
I'm working with Ebenezer, he's had this experience. He comes

1188
01:09:19,039 --> 01:09:21,399
and maybe hasn't changed yet, but he comes to my

1189
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:24,840
office and he's like, can you believe these people talking

1190
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:27,000
about me after my death and that they just wanted

1191
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:28,159
this thing that I have in this thing that I

1192
01:09:28,279 --> 01:09:32,479
have and a strategy I could see me taking with

1193
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:35,520
someone like him is but isn't that what you But

1194
01:09:36,359 --> 01:09:36,960
isn't that good?

1195
01:09:38,239 --> 01:09:41,079
Speaker 3: That's what you care about, right, Like, that's what you.

1196
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:46,079
Speaker 1: Wanted to represent, is a bunch of stuff, and so

1197
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:50,119
you should feel good that that's what people care about,

1198
01:09:50,159 --> 01:09:51,680
and that's what they want from you after your death.

1199
01:09:52,399 --> 01:09:53,920
It's a bit of spitting in his soup, you know,

1200
01:09:54,359 --> 01:09:58,399
kind of like leaning into his way of thinking as

1201
01:09:58,439 --> 01:10:00,560
a way to challenge him, because then he would have

1202
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:04,840
to make the opposite argument to me in that back

1203
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:08,560
and forth, and that would have to require him challenging himself.

1204
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:12,039
Well no, I mean yeah, but I want them to like,

1205
01:10:12,119 --> 01:10:13,760
I'm like, yeah, but you didn't say but you don't

1206
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:16,720
care about that, right, You're not fostering that. You don't

1207
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:19,640
care what people say about you. You don't care about

1208
01:10:20,079 --> 01:10:22,880
having a good impression on people. That's not you, right,

1209
01:10:23,199 --> 01:10:27,399
So yeah, And like I said, that's a technique that

1210
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:29,239
then puts.

1211
01:10:29,079 --> 01:10:30,640
Speaker 3: The ball back in your court as the client.

1212
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:33,640
Speaker 1: You'd be like, oh, well, either I have to agree

1213
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,159
with what you're saying, which I don't want to, or

1214
01:10:36,279 --> 01:10:41,199
I have to truly make an argument against my own

1215
01:10:42,079 --> 01:10:46,760
verbalized beliefs. And that's why they say like bad therapists

1216
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:49,119
give advice, And what they mean by that in a

1217
01:10:49,159 --> 01:10:49,840
lot of ways is.

1218
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:53,039
Speaker 3: As a therapist, I'm not supposed to tell you the

1219
01:10:53,079 --> 01:10:53,600
stuff like this.

1220
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:57,359
Speaker 1: Necessarily, we ask you questions that then provoke you to

1221
01:10:57,520 --> 01:10:59,960
tell yourself, which is harder to ignore.

1222
01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:03,279
Speaker 2: Right, and let you sit in it. A good therapist

1223
01:11:03,399 --> 01:11:06,640
knows that exact moment when you get the aha, or

1224
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:09,000
you see someone's eyes going back and forth and then

1225
01:11:09,119 --> 01:11:13,760
like changing their facial expression, their affecting Oh wait, you

1226
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:21,000
mean it's oh hah, that sucks. You learn to just

1227
01:11:21,159 --> 01:11:25,079
go hmm, say nothing in those moments, let them sit

1228
01:11:25,119 --> 01:11:25,279
in it.

1229
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:29,319
Speaker 1: I think that that is a really helpful strategy to

1230
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:35,439
use with clients because them hearing it from themselves and

1231
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:38,039
experiencing it for themselves and being able to make that

1232
01:11:38,199 --> 01:11:42,079
connection after we I'd let them sit in it or

1233
01:11:42,359 --> 01:11:45,199
help them make that connection, right, because that's a big

1234
01:11:45,279 --> 01:11:48,439
part of what we do. We help piece together the

1235
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:53,039
parts of the story that you don't can't always see

1236
01:11:53,119 --> 01:11:55,640
clearly because you're the one who's in the story.

1237
01:11:56,399 --> 01:11:57,199
Speaker 3: And I think that.

1238
01:12:00,119 --> 01:12:02,840
Speaker 1: When I feel like I really see him change, and

1239
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:05,520
maybe it's just in this version, when I feel it,

1240
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:07,479
really feel like I see him changes when he's with

1241
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:11,119
the Ghost of Christmas Present, and that the Ghost of

1242
01:12:11,199 --> 01:12:13,199
Christmas Present, which is the one that mostly you guys

1243
01:12:13,239 --> 01:12:15,720
are talking about where he kind of gets to experience

1244
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,399
the love and the joy of Christmas with this one

1245
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:23,840
ghost who was really excited about Christmas and wants to

1246
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:25,800
celebrate and wants to show him all the beautiful things

1247
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:28,119
about it. And I feel like that's one of those

1248
01:12:28,199 --> 01:12:32,079
parts where Ebenezer really feels like he's really like he

1249
01:12:32,159 --> 01:12:32,920
really didn't know.

1250
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 3: What Christmas was about.

1251
01:12:35,239 --> 01:12:38,159
Speaker 1: He didn't really know what all that what all the

1252
01:12:38,239 --> 01:12:41,439
big deal is about it, And so in this moment

1253
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:43,840
with where he's getting shown what it could be like,

1254
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:47,479
he actually gets a chance to realize that this could

1255
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:50,960
happen for him, this could be something that he could experience.

1256
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:53,199
And I feel like that's a part where I really

1257
01:12:53,319 --> 01:12:59,199
notice him being more open and more flexible with this

1258
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:01,000
ghost versus the other ghost.

1259
01:13:01,319 --> 01:13:02,000
Speaker 3: I think it.

1260
01:13:02,199 --> 01:13:04,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it challenges this idea too of what do I

1261
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:09,880
actually want versus what am I engaging in behaviorally? And

1262
01:13:10,039 --> 01:13:13,119
that's how I usually will do it with clients in

1263
01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:18,960
normal therapy. Is like with Ebenezer and him being like,

1264
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:20,359
well I like that, and I like that, and I

1265
01:13:20,439 --> 01:13:22,239
don't like that, and then I'll be like, okay, but

1266
01:13:22,319 --> 01:13:26,279
but how is the way you're living behaviorally connecting to

1267
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:30,920
or going away from those values? And that's what you

1268
01:13:31,039 --> 01:13:34,279
really have to take responsibility for a lot of times

1269
01:13:34,319 --> 01:13:37,119
we do walk around in this life. I think Ebenezer's

1270
01:13:37,159 --> 01:13:39,399
not a great example of this, actually, because he does

1271
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:42,479
have stated values and he is living by those values.

1272
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:45,119
Speaker 3: In the version of him that we see for most

1273
01:13:45,119 --> 01:13:45,560
of the movie.

1274
01:13:46,159 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 1: But I'd say with most people though that I work with,

1275
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:51,680
who we have these kind of discussions, they are saying

1276
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:54,960
one thing and doing another. Well, I really value my family,

1277
01:13:55,199 --> 01:13:59,039
but I spend eighty two hundred hours a week at work. Well,

1278
01:13:59,079 --> 01:14:02,239
then you don't value your family. You value work or

1279
01:14:02,359 --> 01:14:04,560
money or whatever it is that you're getting out of

1280
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:05,239
that behavior.

1281
01:14:06,319 --> 01:14:08,359
Speaker 2: Or maybe that can jingle all the way. I'll be

1282
01:14:08,479 --> 01:14:10,479
at your tournament, yeah, I'll see your karate.

1283
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:12,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. Or maybe that is how you value family.

1284
01:14:13,119 --> 01:14:15,399
Speaker 1: That's how you think you're valuing family by working a ton,

1285
01:14:16,159 --> 01:14:19,960
But is that actually getting you closer to that thing

1286
01:14:20,079 --> 01:14:22,000
that you're wanting or what even that means to you.

1287
01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:24,720
Speaker 3: And one of the ways that I work.

1288
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:27,560
Speaker 1: With clients about values is even just helping people have

1289
01:14:27,680 --> 01:14:31,920
awareness of the values they're actually holding is so helpful

1290
01:14:32,039 --> 01:14:36,800
because so often people are completely unaware that there have

1291
01:14:36,960 --> 01:14:39,600
that awareness of oh, I'm working eighty two one hundred hours.

1292
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:42,640
I really don't value my family, like people don't have

1293
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:45,960
any awareness about the things that they value because they

1294
01:14:46,159 --> 01:14:48,680
either go by what they've been told by their family,

1295
01:14:49,199 --> 01:14:52,199
they go by what society is telling them. But they

1296
01:14:52,319 --> 01:14:55,199
don't really have a buy in to the values that

1297
01:14:55,319 --> 01:14:58,600
they should be connected to because they're behaving around all

1298
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:02,880
these values in reaction. So I feel like values is

1299
01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:05,720
a place where I'll walk in to help somebody figure

1300
01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:07,800
out what they want to do, if they want to

1301
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:11,520
change their career path, if they want to do something different,

1302
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:14,880
we do Values work to help them have some insight

1303
01:15:15,199 --> 01:15:18,319
into the things that they actually give a fuck about

1304
01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:20,640
versus the things that they were told to give a

1305
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:21,159
fuck about.

1306
01:15:21,319 --> 01:15:24,600
Speaker 2: Values is powerful, and it embeds early, and it's yet

1307
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:28,079
another idea that we reject that yet again, there are

1308
01:15:29,199 --> 01:15:32,680
ancient wisdom, or there is ancient wisdom about it, including

1309
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:36,119
one that was mentioned in this book or in this movie.

1310
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:41,399
They showed the head of Aristotle and Plato's The Republic

1311
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:45,720
is Teachings from Aristotle where they cover this idea of

1312
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:49,479
like values formation. In order to really reform of society,

1313
01:15:50,399 --> 01:15:53,199
you'd essentially have to make sure everyone is given the

1314
01:15:53,279 --> 01:15:55,880
same set of values, Otherwise the values that come from

1315
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:58,800
their family are going to conflict with whatever values the

1316
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:03,880
republic needs to function ideally. And we've known that for

1317
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:07,920
two thousand years, and people still struggle with these concepts

1318
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:10,600
that we're talking about right now, like, well, I mean

1319
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:14,760
values are easy to change, No they're not. It takes

1320
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:17,600
quite the existential experience sometimes and sometimes not.

1321
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:20,600
Speaker 1: Even then, I do this whole thing where I have

1322
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:23,560
this exercise that has twenty five values on it, and

1323
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:25,439
then we go through. They have to go through to

1324
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:29,960
decide quite important, very important, not important, don't give a shit.

1325
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:31,000
Speaker 2: About and so.

1326
01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:34,279
Speaker 1: And once they do that, we come back to see

1327
01:16:34,359 --> 01:16:36,680
what percentage of time do you want to be focusing

1328
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:40,359
on this value? So how often do you want to

1329
01:16:40,399 --> 01:16:42,720
be focusing on this? And then we break it down

1330
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:44,600
to see, well, I want to be doing this once

1331
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:47,119
a week, I want to be doing this once a month, whatever.

1332
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:49,279
Speaker 3: And so that's how I help them.

1333
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:53,560
Speaker 1: Shift their behaviors towards their values by figuring out what

1334
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:55,800
percent of the time do you want to be engaging

1335
01:16:55,880 --> 01:17:00,119
in this because right now it's like two percent, and

1336
01:17:00,239 --> 01:17:02,239
you want it to be at ten. We got to

1337
01:17:02,279 --> 01:17:04,479
get eight percent up in order to get to where

1338
01:17:04,520 --> 01:17:05,560
you actually want it to be.

1339
01:17:06,239 --> 01:17:07,359
Speaker 3: And so I feel like with.

1340
01:17:09,039 --> 01:17:12,000
Speaker 1: Ebenezer, kind of getting all of his values shook around

1341
01:17:13,239 --> 01:17:16,119
while he's going through this experience, I think that would

1342
01:17:16,119 --> 01:17:17,920
definitely be something that I would want to do with

1343
01:17:18,039 --> 01:17:22,119
him in treatment to continue helping him. Well, we are

1344
01:17:22,239 --> 01:17:26,000
kind of sliding into treatment talk, so before we take

1345
01:17:26,039 --> 01:17:29,159
a break and get into that more, is there anything

1346
01:17:29,199 --> 01:17:33,079
else specifically about values we want to mention? I think

1347
01:17:33,119 --> 01:17:36,600
the only thing I'd want to add specific to Ebenezer

1348
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:39,680
or someone like Ebenezer is also when you get into

1349
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:44,000
values work with clients, it's like is this a value?

1350
01:17:44,199 --> 01:17:48,439
Or is this a survival mechanism? Is this a trauma response?

1351
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:50,920
Is it all of those things? And so for him,

1352
01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:53,399
I don't think it would be as easy either as

1353
01:17:54,439 --> 01:17:55,920
I don't like that I'm caring about this, I don't

1354
01:17:55,960 --> 01:18:00,359
care about this. Instead, I think he'd also have tous

1355
01:18:01,479 --> 01:18:04,199
discernment around like is this something?

1356
01:18:04,359 --> 01:18:07,039
Speaker 3: Is this a value? Or is this me trying to

1357
01:18:07,159 --> 01:18:08,000
protect myself?

1358
01:18:08,279 --> 01:18:11,319
Speaker 1: I think with him, a lot of this miserly behavior

1359
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:16,000
is a trauma response reaction, and so he'd have to

1360
01:18:16,079 --> 01:18:19,880
be able to tell the difference. And once we kind

1361
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:23,359
of identify how much of this stuff as survival strategies,

1362
01:18:24,239 --> 01:18:27,640
what's left, how much of that is actual genuine values

1363
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:31,279
versus safety responses.

1364
01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:36,039
Speaker 2: And IFS language right would be firefighters show up to

1365
01:18:36,600 --> 01:18:41,079
kind of be the protectors, right managers who are like

1366
01:18:41,199 --> 01:18:45,880
the parts we keep to keep everything, and exiles are

1367
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:51,119
the parts of ourselves that we try to help keep

1368
01:18:51,239 --> 01:18:54,800
under reps and don't let anybody see because there's things

1369
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:58,600
in there that no, no, no no. It's where the

1370
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:01,079
wounds are, It's where the the shame is, where the

1371
01:19:01,119 --> 01:19:04,159
guilt is. So understanding how those three kind of work

1372
01:19:04,159 --> 01:19:07,359
together kind of like as signs a different language to

1373
01:19:07,399 --> 01:19:09,239
the idea you're a sign you're talking about here. That's

1374
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:15,880
IFS language is real specific on self managers, firefighters, and exiles.

1375
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:20,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm not trained in IFS, and I do

1376
01:19:21,359 --> 01:19:23,119
what I like about what I have learned so far

1377
01:19:23,159 --> 01:19:26,399
about IFS is like that differentiation and how that can

1378
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:31,840
help even do what I'm talking about for Ebeneezer, which

1379
01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:35,039
is like what's what in why you move the way

1380
01:19:35,119 --> 01:19:39,119
you move and identifying mats. You can have some separation,

1381
01:19:39,279 --> 01:19:42,159
and then I assume you can correct me. I think, Canna,

1382
01:19:42,239 --> 01:19:45,079
you've been teaching yourself a lot of ifs, but like

1383
01:19:45,159 --> 01:19:51,159
yourself is probably more of where your like genuine values live. Yeah,

1384
01:19:51,239 --> 01:19:54,000
I would say, I would say in some ways, yeah,

1385
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:59,840
the self is where we hold There's these eight C words,

1386
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:04,199
of course, because it's therapy and because somebody had to

1387
01:20:04,239 --> 01:20:13,159
come up with it, right, So it's you're connected to clarity, creativity, curiosity, courage.

1388
01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:17,479
I can usually remember a couple I haven't written on

1389
01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:19,720
a note on my desk. Do you remember the rest ben.

1390
01:20:20,359 --> 01:20:21,640
Speaker 2: Not off the top of my head.

1391
01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:22,560
Speaker 1: But the.

1392
01:20:24,239 --> 01:20:30,119
Speaker 2: Dick Schwartz Cward things don't mean you know. What they're

1393
01:20:30,159 --> 01:20:35,319
all about is about flexibility. They're about adaptability, flexibility and

1394
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:40,039
trusting yourself and the ability to respond with all that

1395
01:20:40,119 --> 01:20:46,479
you are comfortably versus when you're firefighter is on. That's

1396
01:20:46,520 --> 01:20:50,159
a real limited, inflexible part that shows up to keep

1397
01:20:50,199 --> 01:20:51,840
you safe and it's going to do whatever it has

1398
01:20:51,880 --> 01:20:53,880
to do to peth the fire. It's not going to

1399
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:58,239
respond with creativity, compassion, any of those things like well

1400
01:20:58,399 --> 01:21:00,119
maybe we can use a little bit of this and

1401
01:21:00,159 --> 01:21:01,600
a little bit of that and maybe a little bit

1402
01:21:01,640 --> 01:21:04,680
over here without having to show up with we are

1403
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:07,039
doing this right now, and that is it, because that

1404
01:21:07,239 --> 01:21:09,640
is all that we do. And when you look at

1405
01:21:09,800 --> 01:21:16,319
Ebenezer the you see him become all the sward functions

1406
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:18,640
when he's buying the turkey and he's allowing himself to laugh.

1407
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:23,039
He's kind of responding flexibly to everything that happens within

1408
01:21:23,159 --> 01:21:26,720
this devices. But it's very different that you feel that

1409
01:21:26,840 --> 01:21:29,960
firefighter step in when they're like like, oh, look and

1410
01:21:30,079 --> 01:21:32,760
here's you at school. Nope, that made me the man

1411
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:34,840
I am today. We won't be looking at that any further,

1412
01:21:34,920 --> 01:21:38,079
thank you, boop boop, because that's an exile that lives there,

1413
01:21:38,079 --> 01:21:40,600
and the firefighters start to protect the exile, Whereas the

1414
01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:43,680
self could look at that in a balance way like oh, well, yeah,

1415
01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:45,199
that was painful, but I learned some stuff from that,

1416
01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:47,399
and I don't want to repeat it, but like I

1417
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:49,199
learned about it what I should do and not do.

1418
01:21:50,039 --> 01:21:51,680
Speaker 1: Well, let's take a break here and move right back

1419
01:21:51,720 --> 01:21:56,279
with treatment. So this is you know, we've only been

1420
01:21:56,319 --> 01:22:00,279
talking about one person, so a treatment. We've kind of

1421
01:22:00,319 --> 01:22:03,199
already been talking about what we would do with Ebeneezer,

1422
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:07,840
and I think something we have started alluding to is

1423
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:12,880
he has gone through this great intervention, this divine intervention,

1424
01:22:13,239 --> 01:22:17,279
but in real life, I would be curious, like once

1425
01:22:17,399 --> 01:22:22,800
the euphoria wears off of the experience, he's going to

1426
01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:26,760
start to have to actively practice and so sometimes with clients.

1427
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:31,960
And this is more of like an acceptance equipment therapy technique.

1428
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:32,680
Speaker 3: That involves a lot of values.

1429
01:22:32,720 --> 01:22:38,039
Speaker 1: Work is just like mapping out our values and using

1430
01:22:38,119 --> 01:22:42,079
that as like a guiding star in different situations, like

1431
01:22:42,159 --> 01:22:44,840
if I do this instead of that, is that aligning

1432
01:22:44,880 --> 01:22:46,880
with my value or is it going against my value?

1433
01:22:47,119 --> 01:22:50,199
As a way to stay ground in these situations where

1434
01:22:50,520 --> 01:22:55,199
it might be hard to intellectualize that in the moment, I.

1435
01:22:55,199 --> 01:22:59,079
Speaker 2: Think working through these kinds of things with Scrooge is

1436
01:22:59,159 --> 01:23:03,680
really challenge because he's going to need reinforcement of these

1437
01:23:03,720 --> 01:23:06,640
new behaviors. Otherwise it's going to be real easy. Like

1438
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:10,039
you said, once the ephorio wears off, like this is

1439
01:23:10,079 --> 01:23:12,920
going to have to become internalized to become a new value.

1440
01:23:13,479 --> 01:23:17,319
If we don't internalize this as a new value, he's

1441
01:23:17,359 --> 01:23:19,680
going to convince himself that he did. He either did

1442
01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:22,760
enough as it is, and he doesn't need to repeat

1443
01:23:22,800 --> 01:23:24,680
it like well, I mean I raise scratch its salary

1444
01:23:24,720 --> 01:23:26,720
and like I say, merry Christmas now, so we're good.

1445
01:23:28,039 --> 01:23:29,319
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, because it's work.

1446
01:23:29,159 --> 01:23:32,279
Speaker 1: To do it differently, especially no offense to him at

1447
01:23:32,319 --> 01:23:36,479
his age, he's going to really have to actively do

1448
01:23:36,680 --> 01:23:40,920
things differently, Like he cannot go back on autopilot for

1449
01:23:41,199 --> 01:23:43,239
maybe the rest of his life given his age. Like

1450
01:23:43,399 --> 01:23:46,560
every choice he's making now has to be a thoughtful one.

1451
01:23:47,279 --> 01:23:50,479
Speaker 2: He must be mindfully engaged to do things different much

1452
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:53,079
like people who are choosing to live a sober life.

1453
01:23:53,560 --> 01:23:56,000
Speaker 1: Oh for sure, that's what they have, Like even the

1454
01:23:56,279 --> 01:23:59,479
Sertinity prayer is that something they have to do to

1455
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:02,680
practice that intentionality, Like it's always on their mind. That's

1456
01:24:02,680 --> 01:24:04,880
why there's so much constant work with that. It's a

1457
01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:06,039
great comparison.

1458
01:24:06,439 --> 01:24:08,760
Speaker 2: Well, and why the most core value of it is

1459
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:09,520
one day at a time.

1460
01:24:10,079 --> 01:24:10,760
Speaker 3: Mmmmmm.

1461
01:24:11,479 --> 01:24:15,439
Speaker 2: Scrooge is going to change one day at a time.

1462
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:19,920
We see him in this fantastical moment where a writer

1463
01:24:20,279 --> 01:24:24,880
living in Victorian England through the Industrial Revolution was like, hey,

1464
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:28,439
rich people, you need do we need to scare the

1465
01:24:28,479 --> 01:24:30,119
shit out of you to get you to change? What's

1466
01:24:30,199 --> 01:24:31,920
what gives? What is it that's going to get you

1467
01:24:32,000 --> 01:24:34,239
to see the reality that the rest of us see

1468
01:24:34,319 --> 01:24:37,960
that children are working in workhouses. People are being taken

1469
01:24:38,000 --> 01:24:40,319
advantage of, and there's halves and haves nots, and it's

1470
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:44,479
not this like glorious time for England where everyone is

1471
01:24:44,520 --> 01:24:46,800
great and England is the greatest country. It's great for

1472
01:24:46,920 --> 01:24:50,439
some of us. For others, it really sucks and maybe

1473
01:24:50,439 --> 01:24:52,159
you need to wake the fuck up so you see

1474
01:24:52,199 --> 01:24:55,399
it kind of energy is what you know book is about.

1475
01:24:55,479 --> 01:24:57,840
And like the actual writing of it, which I think

1476
01:24:57,880 --> 01:24:59,840
I've only seen done really in the George she Scott

1477
01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:04,159
is like the ghost of Christmas Present goes hard at

1478
01:25:04,199 --> 01:25:07,079
Scrooge and like showing him like the like these are

1479
01:25:07,159 --> 01:25:09,159
your children that come out from his legs, and like

1480
01:25:09,159 --> 01:25:13,680
they're like struggle in something that it's really pointed of

1481
01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:20,079
pointing out the things you are doing are producing their nakedness,

1482
01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:26,319
their fear, their pain, and you must stop. This bit

1483
01:25:26,399 --> 01:25:32,279
of happiness you'll see won't exist. And it's a harder

1484
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:34,439
version than we usually see because normally the Ghost of

1485
01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:37,640
Christmas Present is kept kind of jolly and happy. Every

1486
01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:39,560
so often you see a version that goes a little

1487
01:25:39,600 --> 01:25:42,800
more true to the book and goes hard. I think

1488
01:25:43,399 --> 01:25:47,119
reinforcing all of this and closing off all the dissociation

1489
01:25:47,359 --> 01:25:52,640
to all of that societal misery that Scrooge has been

1490
01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:57,399
gleefully ignoring so he can fill his coffers and put

1491
01:25:57,439 --> 01:25:59,560
in his little ledgers that look, I made more money

1492
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:05,000
today then, so I'm not failing. Helping him to hold

1493
01:26:05,039 --> 01:26:09,359
this behavior is going to take mindfully staying present in

1494
01:26:10,199 --> 01:26:14,439
how much he's been hoarding, how much he really holds

1495
01:26:14,479 --> 01:26:16,640
onto and how little other people have, and how much

1496
01:26:17,239 --> 01:26:22,039
This balance shift that he's supposed to represent could produce

1497
01:26:22,199 --> 01:26:25,439
meaningful change if he adheres to it, and that could

1498
01:26:26,159 --> 01:26:28,319
allow him to find this place of love and opening

1499
01:26:28,399 --> 01:26:32,840
his heart and wallet for him, because it's the same thing,

1500
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:36,079
is going to have to be both components of This

1501
01:26:37,119 --> 01:26:39,000
is going to take him a lot of work to

1502
01:26:39,239 --> 01:26:43,760
undo that value formation we talked about earlier that he

1503
01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:48,880
needs to be the richest and most closed off because

1504
01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:51,119
he's going to start feeling unsafe really quick in actuality.

1505
01:26:51,640 --> 01:26:53,279
As soon as he lets that guard down, he's going

1506
01:26:53,359 --> 01:26:55,479
to feel unsafe, and that pullback like you mentioned with

1507
01:26:55,760 --> 01:26:59,039
happening with kids with red who are about to be adopted,

1508
01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:02,800
All that testing is about to need to happen, and

1509
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:05,680
he's he might have one day where we see this

1510
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:08,760
glorious turnaround. But the other days he is going to

1511
01:27:08,800 --> 01:27:10,640
be looking at his ledger with like you spent how

1512
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:14,840
much on that turkey that prize turkey that you ate

1513
01:27:14,960 --> 01:27:18,560
like four bites of how much did you spend? And

1514
01:27:18,640 --> 01:27:20,239
he's going to get uncomfortable with it and he's going

1515
01:27:20,279 --> 01:27:22,000
to struggle, and what he's going to need is support

1516
01:27:22,079 --> 01:27:26,760
through existential therapy that's helping him connect to meaning of

1517
01:27:27,279 --> 01:27:30,520
why are you doing this? What change are you trying

1518
01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:32,640
to create? What purpose are you trying to live? Who

1519
01:27:33,239 --> 01:27:37,720
are you? And there's a line that's mentioned over and

1520
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:40,600
over in this one and some of the others about

1521
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:45,079
living in past, as and future simultaneously. This is what

1522
01:27:45,159 --> 01:27:47,159
we try to do in EMDR. There's three prongs if

1523
01:27:47,199 --> 01:27:50,399
EMDR Past, Present, future, and you have to do treatment

1524
01:27:50,520 --> 01:27:54,600
in each one of those things. You repair the holes

1525
01:27:54,640 --> 01:27:58,800
in the past to deactivate the response in the future

1526
01:27:59,319 --> 01:28:02,479
and make them believe that they can continue to do

1527
01:28:02,680 --> 01:28:08,760
so through their future self. That is what needs to

1528
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:12,000
happen for Scrooge, and that's kind of what this film

1529
01:28:12,079 --> 01:28:14,800
sets up, is he will live in past, present, and

1530
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:18,520
future as in understanding where my wounds are, how to

1531
01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:22,319
avoid repeating them and how to become the man I

1532
01:28:22,439 --> 01:28:25,239
want to be and make positive change in this world.

1533
01:28:25,720 --> 01:28:28,000
So I think for Scrooge there's kind of a blend

1534
01:28:28,199 --> 01:28:36,039
of incorporating some of the AA change policies and philosophy

1535
01:28:36,119 --> 01:28:39,119
and also working with him on the meaning behind the

1536
01:28:39,239 --> 01:28:41,399
changes he's being asked to do. The discomfort he's asking

1537
01:28:41,479 --> 01:28:44,439
himself to feel as assigning a new value to that

1538
01:28:44,760 --> 01:28:48,560
that makes it worth it to deal with the profound

1539
01:28:48,680 --> 01:28:51,880
discomfort he's going to go through making those changes.

1540
01:28:53,039 --> 01:28:56,840
Speaker 1: So a part of what I would want to do

1541
01:28:56,920 --> 01:29:01,680
with Ebeneezer, because like you've both said, one day of

1542
01:29:02,039 --> 01:29:08,159
excitement does not heal a lifetime's worth of experiences. So

1543
01:29:08,720 --> 01:29:11,680
and healing trauma with clients, which is what you would

1544
01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:16,079
be doing with Eupen easier, takes time, and it takes

1545
01:29:16,159 --> 01:29:20,239
time for lots of different reasons. And it's something that

1546
01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:24,000
I try to talk to my clients about because everybody

1547
01:29:24,039 --> 01:29:25,439
wants to know when are they going to feel better?

1548
01:29:26,039 --> 01:29:26,159
Speaker 2: Right?

1549
01:29:26,239 --> 01:29:27,960
Speaker 1: When am I going to feel better? When am I

1550
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:30,119
going to stop having these thoughts? When am I going

1551
01:29:30,159 --> 01:29:33,000
to be stopped being afraid of taking risks?

1552
01:29:33,520 --> 01:29:34,159
Speaker 3: When?

1553
01:29:34,239 --> 01:29:38,159
Speaker 1: When? When? Right? And I think that something that I

1554
01:29:38,239 --> 01:29:41,119
want to point out is that it takes time, and

1555
01:29:41,239 --> 01:29:44,560
a big part of that is, first we have to

1556
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:48,439
establish the trust between you and I, and that trust

1557
01:29:48,479 --> 01:29:50,000
between you and I is going to take a little

1558
01:29:50,039 --> 01:29:53,680
bit of time, especially if you've had attachment wounds, right,

1559
01:29:54,439 --> 01:29:57,439
and so first you have to trust me, and then

1560
01:29:57,479 --> 01:30:00,479
I have to help you trust yourself. That's a big

1561
01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:05,000
part of what Ebenezer will need in order to get

1562
01:30:05,239 --> 01:30:08,520
to the work that Ben and Brittany are talking about.

1563
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:12,079
And so that's just something that I wanted to point out.

1564
01:30:12,119 --> 01:30:14,439
But other than that, I think what you've both suggested

1565
01:30:14,479 --> 01:30:16,960
make a lot of sense. And he's definitely gonna need

1566
01:30:17,159 --> 01:30:20,720
more work because throwing money at the problem is essentially

1567
01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:23,800
what he did, and while it may feel very meaningful

1568
01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:28,439
and very important, it doesn't didn't necessarily make for him

1569
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:31,760
having to create a new narrative for himself where he

1570
01:30:31,840 --> 01:30:34,560
could be a different person. Well, there's a whole like

1571
01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:40,079
category of social skills that he's never developed. Yeah, like

1572
01:30:40,199 --> 01:30:41,920
he doesn't like that would be a lot of the

1573
01:30:41,960 --> 01:30:45,760
work too, is how do I initiate.

1574
01:30:47,520 --> 01:30:51,920
Speaker 3: Whatever, how a bid for connection? Yes, which is right?

1575
01:30:52,199 --> 01:30:54,479
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, what's the Victorian version of like

1576
01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:58,680
asking someone to hang right, but he doesn't have those

1577
01:30:58,760 --> 01:31:01,760
things right like being Vonne knowing how to ask for

1578
01:31:01,880 --> 01:31:06,640
those things. And when you were saying like trusting himself,

1579
01:31:07,159 --> 01:31:09,239
trust himself in a different way. He probably trust himself

1580
01:31:09,279 --> 01:31:12,000
a lot when it comes to like money and whatever

1581
01:31:12,119 --> 01:31:15,560
skills that he can recognize and hold on to. But

1582
01:31:15,680 --> 01:31:19,279
it's more like, can I trust that I have inherent value? Yes,

1583
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:24,319
and that other people could, maybe God forbid, see that

1584
01:31:24,479 --> 01:31:29,239
value and want to take care of that, and that

1585
01:31:29,479 --> 01:31:32,319
I can trust myself to handle it if I'm not

1586
01:31:32,479 --> 01:31:36,920
rewarded in the moment for how I'm trying to do

1587
01:31:37,039 --> 01:31:40,159
things differently. Because that's like even what you were saying

1588
01:31:40,199 --> 01:31:42,760
to Ben about like the existential part of it, like

1589
01:31:42,840 --> 01:31:45,920
the why is what also keeps you going when you're

1590
01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:49,840
not getting rewarded for all the changes you're making. Because

1591
01:31:49,840 --> 01:31:51,960
he's not, he's a bad reputation, He's probably gonna get

1592
01:31:51,960 --> 01:31:53,920
a lot of people that are going to come at

1593
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:56,039
him sideways.

1594
01:31:56,640 --> 01:31:57,399
Speaker 2: Get a lot of pushback.

1595
01:31:57,560 --> 01:32:01,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And so he really needs to hold on

1596
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:05,159
to something bigger than that.

1597
01:32:05,920 --> 01:32:11,680
Speaker 1: And he's in such a reward based field, an instant

1598
01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:15,119
reward too, that he also was going to have to learn.

1599
01:32:15,199 --> 01:32:17,479
And that's what means a therapist would do, is like,

1600
01:32:17,720 --> 01:32:20,119
we have to be patient. It's going to take time.

1601
01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:24,560
You're on the right course, still like almost as a therapist,

1602
01:32:24,640 --> 01:32:27,119
being like more of a guide that we're like on

1603
01:32:27,239 --> 01:32:28,880
the right track, and this is what's going to look

1604
01:32:28,960 --> 01:32:31,840
like and it's going to feel hard, and it's not

1605
01:32:31,920 --> 01:32:35,000
a magic spell where once you're acting like this, everyone's gonna.

1606
01:32:34,760 --> 01:32:37,279
Speaker 3: Be like Scrooge, I love you, thank you.

1607
01:32:38,840 --> 01:32:42,760
Speaker 1: That more closer to the recovery comparison is that people

1608
01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:46,399
are still going to have like a a bad assumption

1609
01:32:46,479 --> 01:32:48,680
about you, or not even assumption. You're still going to

1610
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:51,399
have a bad reputation with some people because you've done shit.

1611
01:32:51,880 --> 01:32:54,479
You need to just sit with that, and that can't

1612
01:32:54,600 --> 01:32:56,399
be part of the equation of why you're doing what

1613
01:32:56,479 --> 01:33:00,880
you're doing now. Good over it of ego death that

1614
01:33:00,960 --> 01:33:02,920
accompanies this kind of work.

1615
01:33:03,279 --> 01:33:06,399
Speaker 2: Take one of those last break things that we tend

1616
01:33:06,479 --> 01:33:09,000
to do the last one of the season here and

1617
01:33:09,119 --> 01:33:12,560
move into final thoughts. So let's talk about final thoughts.

1618
01:33:13,800 --> 01:33:15,399
I think we all love this movie. So we can't

1619
01:33:15,479 --> 01:33:19,640
follow and follow our typical thing we've developed this particular

1620
01:33:19,720 --> 01:33:21,800
season of well who love this one the least, they'll

1621
01:33:21,840 --> 01:33:22,319
go first.

1622
01:33:22,600 --> 01:33:25,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I love the Muppets anything. I'm a

1623
01:33:25,520 --> 01:33:27,960
big muppet head. I love the Muffet babies growing up,

1624
01:33:28,119 --> 01:33:30,560
I love Muppets Christmas Carol. I wish there's more and

1625
01:33:30,600 --> 01:33:34,319
most Piggy in this one. I think that's my only critique. Yesh,

1626
01:33:34,399 --> 01:33:37,479
it's definitely like just as side character. I mean, it's

1627
01:33:37,520 --> 01:33:42,359
not very Muppet heavy this one. Actually, comparatively, it's more

1628
01:33:42,439 --> 01:33:44,960
a Christmas Carol with like Muppets filling out the outside.

1629
01:33:45,520 --> 01:33:48,560
Speaker 3: That's definitely true. That's definitely true. I love this movie.

1630
01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:51,279
Speaker 1: If you're gonna watch Christmas Carol, I like this one. Also,

1631
01:33:51,319 --> 01:33:53,520
the songs are bangers. I forget how much I know

1632
01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:55,760
all the songs until I'm listening and I'm like bopping

1633
01:33:55,800 --> 01:33:56,279
along with it.

1634
01:33:56,920 --> 01:33:58,800
Speaker 3: So it's an easy one to put on for kids too.

1635
01:33:58,880 --> 01:34:01,960
Speaker 1: Like, I think it is a a very all over

1636
01:34:02,800 --> 01:34:05,760
crowd pleaser, and I'll watch it a bajillion more times

1637
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:10,039
after this. Yeah, I love this movie. I've watched this

1638
01:34:10,199 --> 01:34:13,359
movie since it came out in nineteen ninety two. My

1639
01:34:13,880 --> 01:34:16,479
siblings and I really have always enjoyed this movie. It's

1640
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:19,159
something that we watch whenever we're together, if we happen

1641
01:34:19,199 --> 01:34:21,640
to be together on Christmas. It's definitely a movie that

1642
01:34:21,720 --> 01:34:24,319
gets watched. I know all the words, saw the songs,

1643
01:34:24,920 --> 01:34:26,920
I know all the dialogue to the film, and I'm

1644
01:34:27,000 --> 01:34:28,840
just gonna keep I already watched it. This is already

1645
01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:31,840
my second watch of the movie for the season. I

1646
01:34:31,960 --> 01:34:34,439
might watch it again after this. So I love this

1647
01:34:34,600 --> 01:34:39,439
movie and I'm gonna keep watching it at the bare minimum,

1648
01:34:39,479 --> 01:34:40,319
which is once a year.

1649
01:34:40,600 --> 01:34:44,039
Speaker 3: What's your favorite line from the movie, Hannah, since you

1650
01:34:44,119 --> 01:34:44,720
know them by heart?

1651
01:34:47,399 --> 01:34:50,159
Speaker 1: I mean probably the one that Ben put on the board,

1652
01:34:50,279 --> 01:34:53,079
which is light the lamp, not the rat, like the

1653
01:34:53,159 --> 01:34:54,920
lap not the rat, like the laugh not the rat,

1654
01:34:55,319 --> 01:34:57,840
and he pushes them to frozen water. I like when

1655
01:34:57,840 --> 01:35:00,720
he uses the rat to clean the window. I really

1656
01:35:00,880 --> 01:35:04,840
love when Peter gets really excited about the goose. That's

1657
01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:06,920
the part that I remember as a kid, that we

1658
01:35:07,000 --> 01:35:11,600
would rewatch the goose. You's so excited about it's silly.

1659
01:35:12,239 --> 01:35:15,000
Speaker 2: I don't think there's a better answer to any question

1660
01:35:16,359 --> 01:35:19,479
than what's your favorite line for the movie? Like the

1661
01:35:19,600 --> 01:35:23,479
lamp not the rat? What line was better? What's more memorable?

1662
01:35:23,600 --> 01:35:27,079
I mean, there's plenty, but what was more Muppets Christmas

1663
01:35:27,119 --> 01:35:28,640
Caro nothing.

1664
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:29,239
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1665
01:35:29,560 --> 01:35:31,880
Speaker 2: I love this movie. I've always loved this movie. I

1666
01:35:32,159 --> 01:35:34,880
also love the Muppets. I will watch anything Muppets. It's

1667
01:35:35,920 --> 01:35:41,039
just wholesome, good entertainment. And as an adult coming back

1668
01:35:41,119 --> 01:35:43,000
and watching this and catching a few of the jokes

1669
01:35:43,039 --> 01:35:45,840
that they like slipping for grown ups, you're like, ah, oh,

1670
01:35:46,239 --> 01:35:49,079
I see what you did there, And I like catching

1671
01:35:49,119 --> 01:35:51,319
those because the Muppets are a little slick with them.

1672
01:35:51,960 --> 01:35:54,760
It's usually Miss Piggy, and since there's so little of

1673
01:35:54,840 --> 01:35:57,439
her in this, yeah yeah, and more of the giant

1674
01:35:58,920 --> 01:36:01,560
that you know, this is a little harder to catch.

1675
01:36:02,199 --> 01:36:05,680
But I really enjoyed watching this movie. I showed it

1676
01:36:05,760 --> 01:36:09,359
to my kid and unfortunately she got scared a bit

1677
01:36:09,560 --> 01:36:11,039
by the Marley Brothers.

1678
01:36:12,159 --> 01:36:15,159
Speaker 3: Oh sure, all of those old fucks. Yeah, those those

1679
01:36:15,279 --> 01:36:16,720
miserable old bastards. Signe.

1680
01:36:16,880 --> 01:36:21,600
Speaker 2: I think that in the Ghost of Christmas Past got

1681
01:36:21,640 --> 01:36:26,319
her because my two year old has not been sleeping

1682
01:36:26,600 --> 01:36:29,880
and so getting her down was miserable. And instead of

1683
01:36:30,239 --> 01:36:32,439
being able to go upstairs last night when I watched

1684
01:36:32,479 --> 01:36:35,159
this and just put the baby back down for thirty

1685
01:36:35,199 --> 01:36:38,119
seconds and patter Eva got bored and started watching a

1686
01:36:38,199 --> 01:36:40,159
movie before me giving her the one like, hey kid,

1687
01:36:40,600 --> 01:36:43,199
A few spots in this movie can be a little scary,

1688
01:36:43,600 --> 01:36:45,920
so she was just watching some and ended up turning

1689
01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:48,640
it off and watching something else. I was putting the

1690
01:36:48,680 --> 01:36:53,600
baby down. But I enjoy this this movie a lot,

1691
01:36:53,680 --> 01:36:57,159
and it made me consider something I hadn't considered ever before,

1692
01:36:57,880 --> 01:37:01,199
which is in watching The Britishness and Michael Kinan of

1693
01:37:01,279 --> 01:37:05,399
realizing how it was that Alfred Penniworth came about. He

1694
01:37:05,560 --> 01:37:09,800
was actually Ebenezer Scrooge who tried to make his penance

1695
01:37:09,800 --> 01:37:11,960
by caring for rich people by caring for another poor

1696
01:37:12,119 --> 01:37:15,000
orphan kid that got left alone on Christmas, that kid

1697
01:37:15,079 --> 01:37:15,800
being Bruce Wayne.

1698
01:37:17,399 --> 01:37:20,600
Speaker 1: Fuck Bruce Wayne. I think you're so slick with it. Yeah,

1699
01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:22,760
of all the kids that need help in this world,

1700
01:37:22,840 --> 01:37:23,880
it's a billionaire child.

1701
01:37:24,079 --> 01:37:24,920
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly.

1702
01:37:25,039 --> 01:37:28,560
Speaker 2: He has no parents, guys, and then he provided gentle,

1703
01:37:29,600 --> 01:37:31,359
loving care and.

1704
01:37:31,439 --> 01:37:33,520
Speaker 3: He still grew up to dress in a fucking batsuit.

1705
01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:36,760
So you know, I'd be a kid can offer you

1706
01:37:36,840 --> 01:37:40,359
know any don't make me a Riddler apologist. I know

1707
01:37:40,439 --> 01:37:41,800
that's a new Batman movie.

1708
01:37:42,079 --> 01:37:45,159
Speaker 2: And on this podcast, on this day, if I can

1709
01:37:45,279 --> 01:37:50,800
make you an apologist for that riddler, I would be.

1710
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:52,520
Speaker 3: A magician, that's true.

1711
01:37:52,960 --> 01:37:57,439
Speaker 2: But I think Christmas Carol is still a powerful story,

1712
01:37:57,479 --> 01:37:59,720
and I think we're kind of coming back around full

1713
01:37:59,720 --> 01:38:02,279
circle of needing to scare rich folks into behaving.

1714
01:38:03,039 --> 01:38:03,960
Speaker 3: I know, that's fucking right.

1715
01:38:04,239 --> 01:38:04,399
Speaker 2: I know.

1716
01:38:04,600 --> 01:38:07,399
Speaker 1: When I was watching this, I was like, does anyone

1717
01:38:07,520 --> 01:38:09,800
like an Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or any of

1718
01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:13,000
those fucks watch this movie and like any version of

1719
01:38:13,079 --> 01:38:17,720
this story and how do they receive it? Like, what

1720
01:38:17,840 --> 01:38:20,760
are they hearing? If they're watching it at all, what

1721
01:38:20,920 --> 01:38:23,720
are they hearing? Are they seeing themselves? Are they just

1722
01:38:23,800 --> 01:38:26,079
thinking this is a cute little Victorian.

1723
01:38:25,640 --> 01:38:28,920
Speaker 2: Story, probably probably associated from it.

1724
01:38:29,199 --> 01:38:29,399
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1725
01:38:29,520 --> 01:38:31,800
Speaker 1: I think they're like Ebanezer seems like a cool guy.

1726
01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:33,600
I don't want to hang out with him. He doesn't

1727
01:38:33,640 --> 01:38:39,119
need to change. My other friends, my cohort, they're like Ebenezer,

1728
01:38:39,199 --> 01:38:41,760
but not me. Yeah I'm different. Yeah.

1729
01:38:42,239 --> 01:38:45,399
Speaker 2: I gave away five million dollars with my new wife

1730
01:38:45,479 --> 01:38:46,000
to charity.

1731
01:38:46,880 --> 01:38:48,960
Speaker 1: Yeah it doesn't matter that I'm going to be the

1732
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:50,720
first trillionaire on planet Earth.

1733
01:38:51,079 --> 01:38:54,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, even though for what Yeah to do what with?

1734
01:38:54,840 --> 01:38:55,279
Mm hmm.

1735
01:38:56,840 --> 01:38:59,960
Speaker 1: Well, on that note, we'll wrap up. Here are five

1736
01:39:00,880 --> 01:39:04,439
episode of twenty twenty five. Thank you all for joining us,

1737
01:39:04,560 --> 01:39:07,560
Thank you all for listening, Thank you all for rating

1738
01:39:07,640 --> 01:39:10,840
and reviewing and commenting on and all those kind of

1739
01:39:10,960 --> 01:39:13,520
things we see. All the comments you guys leave places,

1740
01:39:13,600 --> 01:39:15,640
we share them with each other. We really appreciate it.

1741
01:39:16,199 --> 01:39:17,000
Speaker 3: It's been a hard year.

1742
01:39:17,159 --> 01:39:20,520
Speaker 1: It's been a hard year for most people, especially if

1743
01:39:20,560 --> 01:39:23,359
you give a shit and you're paying attention, So you

1744
01:39:23,439 --> 01:39:27,800
appreciate everyone who is giving their resources and some capacity

1745
01:39:27,880 --> 01:39:32,079
to us, whether it's financially on Patreon or buying our

1746
01:39:32,119 --> 01:39:33,960
merch or if it's just for free, which is giving

1747
01:39:34,039 --> 01:39:36,479
us a little bit of your time, listening, downloading, telling

1748
01:39:36,560 --> 01:39:39,760
a friend, leaving a rating, leaving a review. We genuinely

1749
01:39:39,920 --> 01:39:43,520
very appreciate it. We're a podcast who pays for themselves.

1750
01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:43,880
You know.

1751
01:39:44,159 --> 01:39:46,640
Speaker 3: Right now we're in Ben's basement at a table.

1752
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:50,800
Speaker 1: Sitting at a big table, a crappy table that has

1753
01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:54,319
folded on us before, you know, surrounded by his children's

1754
01:39:54,840 --> 01:39:57,640
play stuff because we're technically in their play basement area,

1755
01:39:58,039 --> 01:40:00,239
and we're big children, and we are big children, and

1756
01:40:00,319 --> 01:40:02,840
so we really appreciate you all. We hope everyone can

1757
01:40:02,960 --> 01:40:05,880
have a chill holiday with people that they love that

1758
01:40:06,199 --> 01:40:08,239
take care of them, and you take a care of

1759
01:40:08,319 --> 01:40:10,680
each other, and we will see you all in twenty

1760
01:40:10,760 --> 01:40:11,279
twenty six