WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:09.000 Monster House Presents. 2 00:00:13.800 --> 00:00:16.480 It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 3 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:22.399 A giant very creature party part. 4 00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:26.280 In Luckness, a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake 5 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:28.879 in the Highlands of Scotland. It's a creature known as 6 00:00:28.920 --> 00:00:53.280 the Luckness Monster. Monster Talk. 7 00:00:55.159 --> 00:00:58.880 Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm 8 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:00.000 Blake Smith. 9 00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:01.200 And I'm Karen Stolsner. 10 00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:04.519 In this two part interview with doctor Phillip Center, we 11 00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:07.400 will be looking at the evolution of dragons and how 12 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:10.159 dragons are being used to battle against the concept of 13 00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:13.760 evolution and natural selection. In part one, we're going to 14 00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:16.319 be focusing on dragons and how they evolve from ancient 15 00:01:16.359 --> 00:01:20.159 Greek and Roman mythicized serpents into the quadrupedal, fire breathing 16 00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:23.519 monsters that populate fantasy and legend. And then next week 17 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:25.599 in part two, we're going to dive in onto how 18 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:28.159 creation is to arguing that the legends of dragons are 19 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:33.640 rooted in real world human experience coexisting with dinosaurs. There's 20 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:36.200 an assumption I usually make about our listenership that you're 21 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:39.200 here because you love monsters and science, and many people 22 00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:42.599 rely on their religions a source of morality and spiritual guidance. 23 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:45.719 But the narratives of religion ought to provide creation stories 24 00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:48.680 and explanations for how the world works and why. And 25 00:01:48.760 --> 00:01:51.439 as humans have developed science as a method for inquiry 26 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.879 and discovery, a huge pile of logical inferences and material 27 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:59.000 evidence that contradicts mythic narratives have emerged, and a lot 28 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:03.040 of science directly refutes the literal interpretation of sacred documents 29 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:05.959 and narratives. And when one has faced with this conflict, 30 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:08.960 one has to ask oneself if it is possible to 31 00:02:09.039 --> 00:02:10.919 accept that the world we live in is one we 32 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:13.520 can understand through these findings, or do we need to 33 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:16.520 reject the evidence and rely on the stories of ancient 34 00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:19.960 myth as the only truth. I know many scientists who 35 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:24.000 reconcile this, but taking these stories as instructive metaphors, which 36 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:26.759 allows them to be beloved and meaningful, but doesn't require 37 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:28.919 them to reject the evidence that suggests we live in 38 00:02:28.919 --> 00:02:32.599 a natural world subject to natural laws, which can, through 39 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:38.520 rigorous inquiry, be understood or even manipulated. The other approach 40 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:40.919 is to reject this evidence and lean hard into the 41 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:43.840 stories as being literally true and a world that's full 42 00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:47.479 of misleading lives. These are the sources of cartoons showing 43 00:02:47.479 --> 00:02:50.800 a devil hiding dinosaur fossils to confuse the faithful, and 44 00:02:50.919 --> 00:02:55.639 narratives of people wrestling with dinosaurs and ancient Babylon culture. 45 00:02:55.680 --> 00:02:58.120 Wars are not new and they will never go away. 46 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:00.960 But right this minute, I personally like science is on 47 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:03.280 the ropes here in the United States, and I find 48 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.240 it really disheartening. If you believe in a future where 49 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:09.199 demonstrable facts should be treated more seriously than fiery but 50 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:13.840 unevidenced faith, well then you have to keep fighting. Those 51 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:16.800 who purport to support science owe it to themselves and 52 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:19.719 that ideal to educate themselves and speak out when they 53 00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:23.520 see nonsense on the attack. Doctor Center's book is full 54 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:25.560 of useful and fun information if you want to be 55 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:28.080 armed for battle. It's also fun if you just like 56 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:30.439 dinosaurs and dragons and like to read about how people 57 00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:33.319 have used these creatures for a variety of purposes across 58 00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:36.120 the ages. Check out the show notes to find links 59 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:39.080 to the book and additional reading. But why are you 60 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:41.199 listening to this intro when we could be having some fun. 61 00:03:41.319 --> 00:03:44.960 Listen to some good old fashioned dragon themed more obstrutal 62 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:51.560 Hey on this two part episode, we're welcoming doctor Philip J. Center, 63 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:54.639 who is the author of the Real Story of Dinosaurs 64 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:57.919 and Dragons and it's a really interesting book. And I 65 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:00.599 noticed that in the intro you think just to Mullis, 66 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:02.639 who's a friend of the show, for some of his feedback, 67 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:05.240 and yeah, that's great. So he's been on several times 68 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:07.680 and we actually correspond quite frequently. 69 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:13.560 But welcome to the show, Phil, Phil Center, Welcome, thank you, 70 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:13.840 thank you? 71 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:14.879 Or is it Phillip Sitter? 72 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:15.039 God? 73 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:15.639 I messed it up. 74 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:19.319 Sorry, it's okay. Yeah, Phil is fine. 75 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:19.680 Bill. 76 00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:21.720 Yeah, most people call me Phil. 77 00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:22.240 Phil. 78 00:04:22.439 --> 00:04:25.040 Can you introduce yourself a little bit deeper than that 79 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:27.680 shallow effort by me? I would really appreciate it for 80 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:28.319 the listeners. 81 00:04:29.240 --> 00:04:30.000 Sure. Yes. 82 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:34.399 I am a professor of zoology at Fable State University 83 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:38.560 in North Carolina, where I've worked since two thousand and seven, 84 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:45.120 and my research specialties are paleontology with an emphasis on dinosaurs, 85 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:50.920 zoology with an emphasis on reptiles, and biblical studies, for 86 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:54.279 which I have right, I've got a master's degree in 87 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:59.120 theology in addition to the doctorate in biology, so and 88 00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:03.959 in fact, I I earned those credentials, specifically so that 89 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:06.959 I would have credibility doing biblical studies. 90 00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:12.720 Well, that's an interesting combination of fields and perfectly suited 91 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:16.879 to your new book. So we want to start, I think, 92 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:19.920 with just asking you what drove you to write this book, 93 00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:22.279 and then what kept you going. 94 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:26.519 What drove me to write it. 95 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:31.040 Began in class when well, at my first semester at 96 00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:35.439 Fayetteville State and I was teaching a comparative anatomy class 97 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:39.720 and I mentioned something about evolution and one of my 98 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:44.439 students popped off with, I think evolution is a hoax, 99 00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:47.360 and I was stunned. 100 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:48.160 This was a. 101 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:51.800 Biology major who was either a junior or senior, and 102 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:54.040 I had thought, by the time you get that far, 103 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:59.480 surely you're aware of the evidence of evolution, and if not, 104 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:05.040 we need to fix this. So shortly thereafter, I was 105 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:10.480 asked to teach an evolution class, and in preparation for that, 106 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:14.639 I read a bunch of Young Earth creationist literatures so 107 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:19.240 I could be up on counter arguments and know how 108 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:24.199 to answer them. And then that ultimately just spun out 109 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:27.879 into a book because I figured why keep this stuff 110 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:31.240 to myself when there are other teachers out there who 111 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:35.600 could use a database of the counter arguments, which the 112 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:36.319 book is. 113 00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:45.560 Oh well put in that answers the question exactly. Yeah, 114 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:49.000 that's great. Oh quickly, I just wanted to introduce interject 115 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:53.480 that we switched from being like an hour long format 116 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:55.800 to being a thirty minute format. So my plan here 117 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:58.319 is to talk to you and split this in half. 118 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:01.160 And so the first of our questions are going to 119 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:04.399 deal with the history and mythology of dragons. You don't 120 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:06.720 feel a need to steer away from evolution. But the 121 00:07:06.759 --> 00:07:08.680 second part of the interview is we're going to ask 122 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:13.680 questions focused on creationism, dragons, cryptuzology, anti science, that sort 123 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:14.720 of stuff. 124 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:15.879 If that's okay with you. 125 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:17.720 Yeah, yeah, that's fine. 126 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:21.879 In fact, even if all it was was just dragons, 127 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:24.240 that that's still right up my alley. 128 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:25.079 Perfect. 129 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:27.000 Well, here we go. Then the next question is right 130 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:30.800 on topic. Then your book opens up with Dawn of 131 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:33.480 the Dragon, and can you walk us through some of 132 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:36.240 the earliest known dragon myths and how they and we're 133 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:38.079 going to use this word a lot, how they evolved 134 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:41.639 across cultures across time, especially in the Greco Roman tradition. 135 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:47.439 Sure, well, back in the days when Greco Roman culture 136 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:55.120 was the predominant culture around the Mediterranean, or the days 137 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:57.160 of the Greek Empire, the days of the Roman Empire, 138 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:03.079 the words of which is Greek and draco in. 139 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:05.680 Latin both meant serpent. 140 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:10.959 Now, these are the precursors of the word dragon, which 141 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:13.800 did not appear in that form until the Middle Ages, 142 00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:23.360 and the earlier dragon myths are all about snakes. Hercules, 143 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:28.120 for example, Heracles to the Greeks, he could not get 144 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:31.920 away from these blasted things. The goddess Hera sent two 145 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:34.919 of them to his crib to kill him, and they 146 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:37.559 were not successful because he strangled him to death. 147 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:39.120 Then, when he was an. 148 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:42.360 Adult, he had to defeat the racon that was guarding 149 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:46.360 the apples of the Hesperides in order to take the apples. 150 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:47.919 And then later on he. 151 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:53.279 Had to defeat another racon with multiple heads, the hydra, 152 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:57.120 and the poor guy just could not get away from racontess, 153 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:00.919 which is the ancient Greek for dragons. And he even 154 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:05.240 had to meet the hellhound Cariberos at one point, and 155 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:11.159 the tail on that animal was a rack on. And 156 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:16.759 then we get to other contemporaneous smiths. It's one serpent 157 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:22.320 after the next, like the serpent that Asclepios had around 158 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:29.360 his staff, which symbolizes medicine today. The ancient Greeks called 159 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:35.600 it a racon and other examples. The hero Jason famously 160 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:40.720 put to sleep the racon that was guarding the Golden 161 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:43.600 Fleece in order to steal the fleece, and he had 162 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:49.360 some help from Medea, who was well. The serpent was 163 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:52.919 kind of her pet. If you will, and the list 164 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:53.639 goes on. 165 00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:58.039 I think we need to have a quick Medea insert here. 166 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:01.759 So Medea is from the legend of Jason and the Argonauts. 167 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:04.919 She is a sorceress and was a princess of Colchis. 168 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:07.559 She fell for Jason and helps him steal the Golden 169 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:10.960 Fleece by betraying her father and murdering her brother to 170 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:14.200 aid his escape. They flee to Greece together, they marry, 171 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:16.720 they have children, but when Jason leaves her to marry 172 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:21.519 a Corinthian princess, Medea takes brutal revenge. She sends the 173 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:24.600 Princess of poison robe that bursts into flames, killing her 174 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:27.720 and the king, and then in a final act of vengeance, 175 00:10:27.799 --> 00:10:30.840 she kills her own children to wound Jason forever. She 176 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:34.080 escapes in a flying chariot sent by her grandfather, the 177 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:36.919 son god Helios. That's what she's famous for. 178 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:39.840 Yeah, she certainly got her revenge on him after that 179 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:44.720 in the story with the poison cloak that she gave 180 00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:48.039 to his next wife. I guess that's the subject for another. 181 00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:52.720 Episode Media's she turned from heroin to villain in a 182 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:55.000 lot of views. But I mean, you don't want to, 183 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:58.360 you know, you don't want to who you're wrong on 184 00:10:58.399 --> 00:10:59.080 your adventures. 185 00:10:59.559 --> 00:11:09.320 Yeah, yeah, So Bill, do you see common patterns in 186 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.559 dragon stories around the world, or these legends more culturally 187 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:16.120 distinct than we might typically assume. 188 00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:18.799 Well, there are some. 189 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:24.799 Basic similarities in a lot of the circum Mediterranean dragon 190 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:31.279 stories from the from pre medieval times. Very often there 191 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:37.559 is a hero who either has to slay or otherwise 192 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:43.639 defeat or banish a dragon, which is an obstacle, and 193 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:48.639 he has to do that in order to achieve a goal. Sometimes, well, 194 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:53.399 very often the drakon is wrecking havoc around the surrounding 195 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:55.559 landscape in the towns, so it's kind. 196 00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:56.600 Of an enemy to everybody. 197 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:01.399 But other times, no, it's just an obstacle against one thing, 198 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:05.039 well in the way of one thing. But either way, 199 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:08.000 it's considered something to defeat a good deal of the time, 200 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:12.080 and right, sometimes it's a hero, sometimes it's a god 201 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:22.679 who slays the dragon, and I guess the commonality there's usually. 202 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:23.000 It is. 203 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:29.320 A negative thing, which is a bit ironic because also 204 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:33.879 in the circum Mediterranean world at the same time, snakes 205 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:37.159 that were called sacred dragons were kept in temples as 206 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:39.919 agents of healing, so they were also considered good things. 207 00:12:40.360 --> 00:12:43.159 So the dragon had more than one face. 208 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:47.919 Yeah, a little side question there about can you talk 209 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:52.799 about what is it called the cadaces the staff with 210 00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:56.759 the serpent that they used for medicine? What was the 211 00:12:56.799 --> 00:12:59.320 original meaning of this? You mentioned this now we think 212 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:02.039 of it for healthcare in medicine, but like, what did 213 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:04.600 it mean? If it's a nation symbol, can you tell 214 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:06.840 us what it used to be and how it's changed. 215 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:11.039 Well, the cad you see us his staff with a 216 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:17.240 serpent wound around it. It may have been a magic symbol, 217 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:22.759 because very often when a deity or hero is performing 218 00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:27.960 a magical act, there is a staff in the ancient 219 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:32.639 iconography that's pointing toward whatever the action is. Even the 220 00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:37.480 the early, the earliest representations of Jesus on Roman sarcophag 221 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:39.679 g I have him with a staff pointing to whatever 222 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:43.159 thing he's doing, like raising Lazarus from the dead and 223 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:48.320 so forth, And it very well could be that a 224 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:52.360 Slepiosi's healing magic was symbolized by this staff, although it 225 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:54.399 could have meant something else, but it would kind of 226 00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:57.679 make sense because the snake that's wrapped around it is 227 00:13:57.960 --> 00:14:03.600 sort of his familiar and there were actual snakes that 228 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:09.759 were kept in the temples of Asclepios, and it was 229 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:15.279 considered a blessing to be tongued by these snakes, and 230 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:17.759 so that they were that was considered part of the 231 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:21.759 healing process, or at least a precursor to it. So 232 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:25.120 having that wrapped around his staff to symbolize the agent 233 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:28.000 of the magic might have had something to do with 234 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:29.200 the symbology there. 235 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:33.080 Interesting well, I did a little side quest thing and 236 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:37.919 it implied that it was adopted for modern medical stuff 237 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:41.519 in the in the sixteenth century, which seems around the 238 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:44.240 time that a lot of I guess a lot of 239 00:14:44.679 --> 00:14:48.000 ancient texts had been published because of the printing press, 240 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:51.360 And it fits into that whole idea of the past 241 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:55.919 is magic too, which is white that's a running theme for. 242 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:00.679 Yeah, and that was towards the end of the Renaissance, 243 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:05.159 and the Renaissance was all about rebirthing all the ancient 244 00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:09.320 ways of thinking, including the ancient myths. So it kind 245 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:11.879 of goes along with the whole zeitgeist of the time. 246 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:15.720 We talk a lot about you Heimerism here and the 247 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:19.679 idea that any legend probably has some grain of truth, 248 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:22.320 or you know, the idea that the ancient gods of 249 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:24.960 Greece were real men and heroes who had adventures, and 250 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:27.240 they got sort of expanded and it stretched on over time. 251 00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:31.200 And I think in cryptosology that theme runs deep, the 252 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:35.080 idea that legends have a basis in reality. And I'm 253 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:39.600 wondering to what extent you think that natural phenomena are 254 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:44.120 encounters with unusual animals like crocodiles or whales, contributed to 255 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:46.320 the formation of these dragon legends. 256 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:49.879 I think there's a possibility there. 257 00:15:49.879 --> 00:15:53.879 But given the fact that the word meant snake, and 258 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:58.799 that every representation in the Greek and Roman iconography of 259 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:01.399 a dragon from a store is a snake, I would 260 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.440 say that they were probably inspired by actual snakes. 261 00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:07.919 Yeah, Violid, I like it makes sense. 262 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:15.080 So you mentioned in the book that Renaissance taxidermy, like 263 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:19.960 fabricated dragons contributed to the mythology. So could you tell 264 00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:22.039 us a little bit about one of your favorite fake 265 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:25.480 dragon stories from that era and what it tells us 266 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.159 about human credulity and imagination. 267 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:31.759 Oh, yes, well, one of the best has got to 268 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:39.039 be Elder Vandi's dragon. The Italian naturalist, at least say 269 00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:45.559 Elder of Bandi, had a museum of biological curiosities that. 270 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:49.639 He let people come to study. 271 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:54.600 And this was in a town that happened to be 272 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:59.639 the hometown of a man who was elected pope. And 273 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:06.319 the day of the election, this dragon appeared outside the 274 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:11.519 walls of this town, along with a fabricated backstory that 275 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:14.880 it had been beaten to death by a peasant who 276 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:20.920 had found it, and it frightened his oxen, and he 277 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:25.000 wanted to pass, and the dragon was making the oxen balk, 278 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:29.839 so he beat it in the head and killed it, supposedly. 279 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:35.839 And the item was of course not a real dragon 280 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:37.960 as it was conceived in those days, In other words, 281 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.960 no longer a snake, but this monstrous thing. What it 282 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:45.880 was was a grass snake that had its mid section 283 00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:49.440 replaced with the mid section of a fish, and there 284 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:54.640 were little arms from a toad that were added to it, 285 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:59.680 and it fooled a lot of people into thinking this 286 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:00.640 was a real dragon. 287 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:03.480 And but you're saying it was a total fraud. 288 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:05.319 Yes it was. 289 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:08.200 It was a complete fraud, and it probably had some 290 00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:12.400 politics going on with it, because the pope that had 291 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:16.799 just got elected his family crest was a dragon, and 292 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:19.839 to be elected on the on the day when a 293 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:24.119 dragon appears near his hometown, the pope's hometown which happened 294 00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:30.839 to be where Aldervandi was also living and had his museum, 295 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:33.920 and a dragon had been beaten to death by a 296 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:39.160 peasant whose name was supposedly Baptista, in other words, a baptizer. 297 00:18:39.559 --> 00:18:44.759 I mean, there's religious and political innuindo in here. Apparently 298 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:47.440 somebody did not like the pope and was beating him 299 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:52.880 in effigy, and then the dragon was donated to Aldervandi, 300 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:57.319 who put it on display, and obviously somebody knew it 301 00:18:57.359 --> 00:18:59.000 was going to go on display, because that's what you 302 00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:01.759 do with the museum. So this kind of in your 303 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:04.359 face to the new pope was now public and permanent. 304 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:08.200 There must have been some other intrigue going on with that, 305 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:14.079 but I mean the the audacity to do them on 306 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:17.640 that particular day, and they prepared for it too. The 307 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:19.759 dragon appeared on that day, but they had to have 308 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:24.759 put it together some days before. So someone was anticipating 309 00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:28.359 that this guy would be elected and had gone to 310 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:31.920 the trouble to express their displeasure. 311 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:33.960 Ahead of time. 312 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:36.920 So who knows what sort of feud was going on 313 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:40.119 and who knows who it was. But I would like 314 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:43.200 to travel back in time a little bit and find 315 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:43.720 that out. 316 00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:53.799 I'm just listening to and a question came to mind. 317 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:57.279 I'm just starting to wonder. We're talking about serpents and snakes, 318 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:01.279 and evolution is going to come into this discussion soon, 319 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:06.240 but right now, I'm wondering, how did this mythical creature 320 00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:10.519 evolve from a snakelike creature to a kind of reptilian 321 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:15.240 bast that has claws and wings and can breathe fire 322 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:17.599 into all of these other things that we associate with 323 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:18.839 dragons today. 324 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:25.480 Well, the first bit of transformation was the fire. When 325 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:33.519 Christianity became the predominant religion in the Roman Empire, the 326 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:40.640 Christian storytellers began to make stories about their saints, stories 327 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:44.400 about real people. But things that had not actually happened 328 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:51.119 to those people, And there were encounters with serpents in 329 00:20:51.160 --> 00:20:54.839 which the saint was cast almost in the Greek or 330 00:20:54.880 --> 00:21:00.160 Roman hero role, with the serpent as adversary, and in 331 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:03.279 the literature was called draco or draco, which is a 332 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:06.279 formal way to say snake, like today we would say 333 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:08.759 serpent instead of snake, so that they were trying to 334 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:09.599 make it. 335 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:10.680 Impressive and hyghalutine. 336 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:16.799 Well, before Christianity had taken over, a lot of the 337 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:23.240 dragon stories had the dragon spitting venom and venom burns. 338 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:27.240 I can attest to this, having venomated at least once 339 00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:28.759 I got you. 340 00:21:28.759 --> 00:21:32.960 You mean it feels it burns? Yeah, yeah, gotcha, gotcha. Slamble, 341 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:35.680 it feels like you're on fire, got it exactly. 342 00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:38.000 It won't set anything on fire, but you will feel 343 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.960 like there is fire inside you when when the venom 344 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:43.240 has been pumped into your system. 345 00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:45.920 And eating Chili's right. 346 00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:47.319 Well, with these. 347 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:52.720 Christian stories, the the venom spitting got replaced with fire spitting, 348 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:55.319 and it's not too much of a stretch to do 349 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.160 one from one to the other, because there was an 350 00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:00.160 association in people's minds with that, so that was the 351 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:07.000 the first transformation. The dragon became fire breathing in Christian traditions, 352 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:13.119 and then about the eighth or ninth century, for no 353 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:19.079 apparent reason, artists began putting feathered bird wings and one 354 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:24.279 pair of legs on dragon depictions. And I have searched 355 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:30.480 the literature to see whether there was some inspiration from 356 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:34.160 something written, and I've come up with squat, so I 357 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:38.480 think the artists were just being imaginative. But once that 358 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:42.839 got started, it stuck. And then a few centuries later 359 00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:48.000 it became popular to trade the bird wings for batwings, 360 00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:52.400 and this did not become really popular until the Renaissance. 361 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:55.920 Didn't become standard until after the Renaissance. And the same 362 00:22:55.960 --> 00:22:58.640 goes for adding a second pair of limbs so that 363 00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:01.799 the dragon becomes a quite with wings. There was a 364 00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:03.839 little bit of that in the twelfth century, but it 365 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:07.279 did not become standard until the Renaissance was at its height, 366 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:10.039 so it took a while for this to catch on, 367 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:15.799 and by the time the Renaissance was over, a lot 368 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:19.119 of artists had stopped depicting the dragon with the sort 369 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:23.000 of a bird shaped torso and had replaced that with 370 00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:27.400 a mammalian torso with mammalian haunches and the limbs that 371 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:30.960 were clearly upright like those of a mammal, which just 372 00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:33.400 so happens to be how dinosaurs hold their limbs. So 373 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:36.960 by the time dinosaurs were discovered for what they were 374 00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:41.799 in the nineteenth century, the dragon had come to resemble 375 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:45.200 one with wings, quite by accident. 376 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:49.599 It's interesting because you go from this idea that it's 377 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:53.559 a serpent, and then it becomes a leged animal and 378 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:58.920 winged animal and a fire breeding animal. And then Europeans 379 00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:01.640 as they go around the world, anytime they encounter is 380 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:05.119 something that looks big and reptilian that's also a dragon. 381 00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:07.799 You know, even if that culture doesn't even have a dragon, 382 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:11.200 it becomes part of the dragons. And you get things 383 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:14.720 like we have a taxonomy. You know, if it's got 384 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:16.759 four legs, it's a dragon. If it's got two leg 385 00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:19.200 it's a wyburn. You know, some people call them worms. 386 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:24.920 It's really interesting and creative, and I think I struggle 387 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:28.359 sometimes because, again going back to that Euhimmerist idea, the 388 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:31.440 idea that things are based on real encounters kind of 389 00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:35.200 lies at the core of what is the challenge with 390 00:24:35.559 --> 00:24:39.400 dealing with people who don't have a scientific take on 391 00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:43.400 the world, or who like to have literally supernatural takes 392 00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:48.519 on the world. That these magical, supernatural creatures can somehow 393 00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:51.680 fit into a natural world, that there's a way to 394 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:54.960 make them fit. There's a way it makes sense, and 395 00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:57.359 the easiest way, it seems like it's to reject science. 396 00:24:58.039 --> 00:25:00.799 But I guess I do have a question here after 397 00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:03.799 that little ramble, which is this. And this is one 398 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:06.039 of those questions that sometimes annoy our listeners because it's 399 00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:09.200 a thoughtful, feely kind of question. But if you leave 400 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:11.839 inside the science for a minute, why do you think 401 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:16.279