Speaker 1: It's going to be a windy and cool nights to
Speaker 1: night under a mainly cloudy sky. We'll have rain at times,
Speaker 1: which will be steady US near the coast, much of
Speaker 1: the time west of Boston will be dry, low tempter
Speaker 1: around fifty nine. We do have coastal flood advisories in
Speaker 1: effect all the way through Sunday evening with the storm
Speaker 1: system off to our south and high surf advisories are
Speaker 1: an effect through tomorrow, as it will be breezy and
Speaker 1: cool Tomorrow and Tomorrow night with clouds and some rain
Speaker 1: at times close to the coast. Couple of showers farther
Speaker 1: inland high sixty two Tomorrow, low fifty eight Tomorrow night,
Speaker 1: an early shower toward the Cape Island. Sunday otherwise breezy
Speaker 1: and cool with clouds and breaks of sun high sixty five,
Speaker 1: clouds and some sun Monday with the cool breeze, high
Speaker 1: again around sixty five. I'm accurate with the VideA reallotis
Speaker 1: Brian Hops at WBZ Boston's news radio.
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Speaker 10: Let's get back now to Night Side with Dan Ray.
Speaker 10: I'm Al Griffith, WBZ, Boston's news radio.
Speaker 6: It's nice with Dan Ray on Boston.
Speaker 8: All right, welcome back, Thanks very much, Al Griffith. As
Speaker 8: we head toward what we're now in our ten o'clock hour,
Speaker 8: by the way, coming up at eleven tonight, in the
Speaker 8: twentieth hour we do we'll do an hour. You're a
Speaker 8: brush with celebrity. Everybody has met a celebrity during their life. Again,
Speaker 8: to some people a celebrity as a president. Some people
Speaker 8: it might be the local selectman or whomever. We love
Speaker 8: to hear your stories about how they treated you, the good,
Speaker 8: the bad, and the ugly. It's as simple. It's as
Speaker 8: simple as that. We're going to talk about the latest chapter, actually,
Speaker 8: what will be the next chapter in the Karen Reid case.
Speaker 8: I have with me tonight. Too well experienced lawyers here
Speaker 8: in the Boston area. William Kickham, who does criminal fence
Speaker 8: work and also deals with catastrophic on TWRT cases. Never
Speaker 8: quite heard it described that way, but Bill Kickham, Welcome
Speaker 8: to Nightside. Bill's practices out of the community of Westwood,
Speaker 8: Welcome Bill, how are you?
Speaker 11: How are you good?
Speaker 8: And Attorney Robert George, who has handled some extremely high
Speaker 8: profile cases and gentlemen, let me, Hi, Bob, how are
Speaker 8: you tonight?
Speaker 12: How are you doing Dan?
Speaker 8: I'm doing great, So let me kind of set the
Speaker 8: stage here. And I might be dead wrong on this.
Speaker 8: As a matter of fact, one lawyer told me the
Speaker 8: other night I was dead wrong on this. But for
Speaker 8: those who have followed the Karen Reid trial closely that
Speaker 8: sat on that trial told the judge in July that
Speaker 8: they were hung. The judge never inquired of the jury
Speaker 8: as to if they were hung on all three counts
Speaker 8: for which he was being charged, or if they had
Speaker 8: reached a verdict on one or more counts subsequent to that.
Speaker 8: The way this story has to developed is some of
Speaker 8: the jurors reached out to defense lawyers, and also I
Speaker 8: believe at least one juror reached out to the prosecution
Speaker 8: and said, hey, we had decided unanimously to dismiss the
Speaker 8: charge of second degree murder and the second charge of
Speaker 8: leaving the scene of an accident causing personal injury and death.
Speaker 8: They had voted to convictor on manslaughter, which was one count.
Speaker 8: So I don't know the truth of that, but the
Speaker 8: judge never inquired. And now the defense lawyers for Karen
Speaker 8: Reid have petitioned the State Supreme Court here in Massachusetts
Speaker 8: through a gatekeeper hearing. They were looking for a gate
Speaker 8: keeper what I call a gatekeeper hearing in front of
Speaker 8: a single justice. The single justice decided not to hold
Speaker 8: a hearing, but read the file and basically said, we'll
Speaker 8: have the full court sit on this case, hear this
Speaker 8: case sometime in November. It is to me a case
Speaker 8: of first impression. I'm going to ask both of these lawyers,
Speaker 8: who were more experience than I am, for sure, to
Speaker 8: tell me if they think the defendants have a chance
Speaker 8: in this case. Obviously, they're arguing that if a jury
Speaker 8: did sit and did reach a verdict on two of
Speaker 8: the counts, although those that those decisions never became a
Speaker 8: verdict and that they were handed into the court, should
Speaker 8: Karen Reid have to face a second trial on all
Speaker 8: three of these charges or should the two charges be
Speaker 8: dismissed and she just goes to trial on the manslaught
Speaker 8: of charge. Let me start off with you, Bill Kickham,
Speaker 8: give me your quick sense of it, and then we'll
Speaker 8: incorporate phone callers again. I think it's a really interesting case.
Speaker 8: I think it's a case to first impression. And I
Speaker 8: talked to one person familiar with the courts today who
Speaker 8: feels that her lawyers might have a shot on this.
Speaker 11: Go ahead, Bill, Well, if it's not a case of
Speaker 11: first impression, it's definitely.
Speaker 13: Impression.
Speaker 11: Now, Judge Tony justified her declaring mistrial because was not
Speaker 11: acquitted on any Jerry's lips, and she wasn't acquitted on
Speaker 11: any Jerusalem.
Speaker 8: Your your phone is not great, Rob, can you I'm
Speaker 8: gonna I'm going to ask Rob to try to clean
Speaker 8: up your phone because you're breaking up on us. So Rob,
Speaker 8: take take Bill and get his uh, get him on
Speaker 8: a different phone or a better phone. Let me go
Speaker 8: to Bob George, Bob, you know, I hope you you
Speaker 8: heard the way I set it up. I tried to
Speaker 8: set it up as neutrally as I could. What's what's
Speaker 8: your take on this? Did they is? Does she have
Speaker 8: a shot here? Do you think?
Speaker 11: Well?
Speaker 12: What you're calling down a gatekeeper, you know appeal? Is
Speaker 12: that basically a two eleven three. The argument is that
Speaker 12: Judge Canon, you know who's been a you know who
Speaker 12: is a defense lawyer for many years and now has
Speaker 12: been a judge for many years abused your discretion when
Speaker 12: she made her decision in this case, it's don't get
Speaker 12: me wrong. They look at the law, but they have
Speaker 12: to find that she she abused or abused or made
Speaker 12: a mistake in using her discretion and and and and deciding, Bob.
Speaker 8: I've quivered with discretion for a second. My question is,
Speaker 8: and maybe I'm seeing it incorrectly here and help me
Speaker 8: out if i am. I'm assuming that that that she
Speaker 8: could have said to the jury for person, are you
Speaker 8: hung on all three counts? Or have you made a
Speaker 8: have you come to a decision or a verdict on
Speaker 8: any of these counts?
Speaker 12: See, that's the lynchpin, you know. I the argument that
Speaker 12: Marty Weinberg's making on appeal, and that's that's lead. That's
Speaker 12: lead council. Now, so we got Marty Weinberg arguing that listen,
Speaker 12: you didn't you didn't ask the jury as to whether
Speaker 12: they had verdicts on all three counts, sorry, or what
Speaker 12: they were hung not all three counts. The problem is
Speaker 12: the jury reported that they were hung. It's all going
Speaker 12: to hang up on whether the SJAC decides whether or
Speaker 12: not Trial judges have to ask jurors when they come
Speaker 12: back hung after they come back hung three times yep.
Speaker 12: In other words, the first two times that he give them,
Speaker 12: as you know, the charge up what they call the
Speaker 12: dynamite charge. And so what she argued in what she argued,
Speaker 12: what she set out in her in her decision was
Speaker 12: she had is she quoted the defense as they argued
Speaker 12: once twice and three times that they wanted a mistrial declared.
Speaker 12: So it's it's not whether she declared the miss trail improperly.
Speaker 12: The question is whether or not she should have gone
Speaker 12: further in asking them whether they were hung on one,
Speaker 12: two or three g saying I don't have to do
Speaker 12: it unless you ask me to you, And that's what
Speaker 12: they're gonna have to decide. And in this state, if
Speaker 12: you look at the case law, and I'm not saying
Speaker 12: I know and I know the case laws experienced, but
Speaker 12: it's not like I looked at the case law before
Speaker 12: I came on talking to you. I can tell you
Speaker 12: that the SJAC will be load to stick their nose
Speaker 12: into what goes on in the jury room because that's
Speaker 12: what the case law says. I'm not saying they don't
Speaker 12: have a shot because they may look at this case
Speaker 12: and as half the world thinks Karen should only.
Speaker 8: Can I just jump in for a question, Bob, you
Speaker 8: said yes that the the SJAC is loathed to look
Speaker 8: at what went on in the jury room. I'm asking
Speaker 8: whether or not the the s JAC will establish a
Speaker 8: new practice if if if let us, they look at
Speaker 8: this case and they say, okay, it's her discretion and
Speaker 8: she there was no abuse of discretion here.
Speaker 11: She chanced, yes, Can I step in here for a moment.
Speaker 8: Let me just finish that point that I'll let you in, Okay.
Speaker 8: I'm just trying to say that that The question is
Speaker 8: might this court want to say we need to tighten
Speaker 8: up practice in the courtrooms and in multi count indictments.
Speaker 8: We want judges to ask juries to expedite and to
Speaker 8: move the system along and prevent a defendant from being
Speaker 8: put in a position where arguably they they're victim their
Speaker 8: due process to that because they're victim of a double jeopardy.
Speaker 8: Go ahead, go ahead, Billy.
Speaker 11: And they need to take a corrective step here. They
Speaker 11: may do that. I think it's less likely than more likely.
Speaker 11: But if they do, there's a phrase that's going to
Speaker 11: become famous and be used all over this case and
Speaker 11: all over mistake firmative obligation if they did say what
Speaker 11: you talked about the possibly coming out and saying that
Speaker 11: we're likely phrase it that a judge has an affirmative obligation.
Speaker 11: I'm not saying that presently a judge has that firm
Speaker 11: the obligation, but if they were to make such a change,
Speaker 11: likely obscured in terms of that, a judge has an
Speaker 11: affirmative obligation to ask the jurors these questions.
Speaker 8: Sure, and that's how in many cases, new procedures or
Speaker 8: an effect codified. Bob, I interrupted, you can you finish on?
Speaker 12: See Dan, I don't think you know. I don't. I'm
Speaker 12: not saying it can't happen. I'm saying you're talking about
Speaker 12: and listen, you may be right. You know, will they
Speaker 12: make new law? If they do it, they are making
Speaker 12: new law. But see judge abusive discretion is something else.
Speaker 12: Judge Town followed the law and did an abuse or
Speaker 12: discretion in following the law, so they would have to
Speaker 12: change it, and then it's not abusive discretion. But just
Speaker 12: remember one thing. Marty Weinberg's looking for a middle ground here.
Speaker 12: The second thing he's looking for is for the case
Speaker 12: to be remanded back to the Superior Court for her
Speaker 12: to have a hearing where she hears from all the jurors. Now,
Speaker 12: that's more like it. That's more like it, because hearing
Speaker 12: second and third and fourth hand hearsay, you know, through
Speaker 12: affidavits from jurors who have never taken a witness stand.
Speaker 12: This is what happened in that jury room. This is
Speaker 12: where it stood. If if one or two or three
Speaker 12: of those jurors don't agree with that version of events,
Speaker 12: then it is that it is, and it's over.
Speaker 8: It's over. So, however, what happens if they remaind and
Speaker 8: Judge Canoni has an in camera proceeding and all the
Speaker 8: jurors troop in and say, yeah, we agree to acquit
Speaker 8: on one in three, you know, and and and you know,
Speaker 8: we did not a quit on two. I would hope
Speaker 8: that she would not ask where you were on two.
Speaker 8: There have been reports that it was eight to four,
Speaker 8: so that's a significant split. But it doesn't matter if
Speaker 8: it's eight to four or eleven to one. What does
Speaker 8: she do if the jurors in camera or in open
Speaker 8: court say yeah, we did agree to a quit on
Speaker 8: one of three, what does she do then?
Speaker 12: Then? She's in a different position. Then now she's looking
Speaker 12: at okay, I've got the evidence here that this was
Speaker 12: the vote. And then it becomes a discretionary call on
Speaker 12: her point, you know, on her on her you know,
Speaker 12: on her part, and if she says no again, it
Speaker 12: goes back up yep. And then they decide, are we
Speaker 12: going to codify new law, as Bill has said, are
Speaker 12: we going to create a new affirmative obligation to ask
Speaker 12: the jurors will tell me, are you hung on one, two,
Speaker 12: and three or you hung on all?
Speaker 13: Three?
Speaker 12: Are words to continue the inquiry, which, by the way,
Speaker 12: isn't what the law is, right now, that's not what
Speaker 12: the law is. So you're right, a new law will
Speaker 12: have to be created or sorry, new duties and new procedures,
Speaker 12: which is new law has to be created for Canon
Speaker 12: to not have abused her discretion. Well, for her, she
Speaker 12: has not abused.
Speaker 8: Her I don't think she's abused discretion either. I think
Speaker 8: the question is whether or not the s JC will
Speaker 8: impose on superior court judges who are you know, who
Speaker 8: are the trial judges that on a multi count case,
Speaker 8: the defense and the prosecution are not obligated to make
Speaker 8: emotion but she asks a simple question, are you hung
Speaker 8: on all counts or are you hung on some only
Speaker 8: some of the counts?
Speaker 11: Again back to the affirmative obligation. No, go, yeah, and
Speaker 11: you could came back to back to the possibility of
Speaker 11: of imposing an affirmative obligation of the judges. That would
Speaker 11: be a a pretty bald, a pretty a pretty surprising move,
Speaker 11: but it's possible.
Speaker 8: Okay, gentlemen, how about we just take a quick break
Speaker 8: and that let's invite some of our non lawyers and
Speaker 8: other lawyers to call. Clearly, we are not of one
Speaker 8: mind on this, which is great, and I certainly will
Speaker 8: stand down in deference to your positions. But I do
Speaker 8: appreciate the acknowledgment that this is. I think I think
Speaker 8: it's a fascinating, kate fascinating appeal on now again, I,
Speaker 8: to the best of my knowledge, I don't think that
Speaker 8: there is a single juror who has come forward to
Speaker 8: either defense lawyers or to the prosecution or to the judge.
Speaker 8: I've heard nothing that some some jura has come forward
Speaker 8: and said we never agreed on counts? What at three?
Speaker 8: And the fact that there's an absence of anyone any
Speaker 8: legitimate jury coming forward. That kind of adds adds a
Speaker 8: little more drama to it, in my opinion. We'll take
Speaker 8: a break if you like to join the conversation Lawyer
Speaker 8: or not six seven four ten thirty six one seven
Speaker 8: nine three one ten thirty. I just think it's fun
Speaker 8: to talk to legal guys like Bill Kickham and Bob George,
Speaker 8: who has spent a lot of time in courtrooms over
Speaker 8: the years and understand that sometimes the sands shift within
Speaker 8: those courtrooms. And maybe we got a little bit of
Speaker 8: a seismic ship coming up. Maybe we don't, but it's
Speaker 8: fun to talk about it and speculate on it. And
Speaker 8: we'll be back on Night Side with real phone calls
Speaker 8: for my two guests, Attorney Bill Kickham and Attorney Bob
Speaker 8: George both have spent a lot of time in courtrooms
Speaker 8: and a lot of time dealing with issues like this
Speaker 8: is and I appreciate that both of them have joined
Speaker 8: us tonight, particularly on a Friday night. We'll be back
Speaker 8: right after this.
Speaker 14: It's Night Side Boston's News Radio.
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Speaker 14: Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Speaker 14: night Side Studios on WBZ New.
Speaker 8: Radio, My guests on the line, and gentlemen. I know, Bob,
Speaker 8: you are probably a little more strapped for time, so
Speaker 8: I can let either or both of you go at
Speaker 8: ten thirty, but I gotta I want to get a
Speaker 8: couple of calls in for each of you. Let's see
Speaker 8: what the folks have to say. If you if you
Speaker 8: want to take a position, that's fine, but I think
Speaker 8: it would be better to get a question for these
Speaker 8: learned counselors. Danielle and Worcester. Danielle and Worster, you run
Speaker 8: next on Nightside first this hour, go right ahead, Danielle
Speaker 8: with Bill kick Him and attorney Bill kick Him and
Speaker 8: Attorney Bob George.
Speaker 5: Oh this is this is almost a dream come true call.
Speaker 5: So there's so much but I'm just gonna first of all,
Speaker 5: I watch a lot of like law tubers. They call
Speaker 5: the lawyers from other parts of the country. The have
Speaker 5: YouTube channel, so they all kind of poke fun of
Speaker 5: Massachusetts always kind of match into their own beat. You know,
Speaker 5: Massachusetts don't set of law as compared to a ways
Speaker 5: of doing things versus other states. One of the things
Speaker 5: that comes up a lot is how the judge picks
Speaker 5: the four person prior to alternates being named, et cetera.
Speaker 5: Is that can you talk about that a little bit?
Speaker 5: Because the jury for person is who seems to have
Speaker 5: played a big role in all of this confusion. A
Speaker 5: lot of the other jurors to come forward and said
Speaker 5: that he wouldn't allow anybody to ask questions when they
Speaker 5: didn't understand something.
Speaker 8: So that's a great question. I was unaware of that.
Speaker 8: I know that he wrote a very lawyer like note
Speaker 8: explaining to the judge.
Speaker 5: He's a former police officer and now it's to the
Speaker 5: physicians positions.
Speaker 8: No more than I do, Danielle. Let me get Bob
Speaker 8: or build a comment or that. Are you guys familiar
Speaker 8: with the fella who was the four person in the jury.
Speaker 8: I wasn't sure what his employment was, but he wrote
Speaker 8: a very well written note to the judge since he
Speaker 8: read an open coort about how they were hung. He did,
Speaker 8: I don't hold the gentleman, Okay, Bob, go ahead.
Speaker 12: I'm familiar with the note, and I was unaware that
Speaker 12: that the police. I knew there was a police former
Speaker 12: police officer on the jury, which of course stunned me
Speaker 12: in the first place. Not that police officers wouldn't make
Speaker 12: great jurors if a police officer was on trial, but
Speaker 12: I mean the fact is that that having a police
Speaker 12: officer in this particular case, especially in light of the
Speaker 12: allegations that were going to be made, was very odd. Now,
Speaker 12: as far as picking a picking a foreman. A foreman
Speaker 12: is supposed to be picked one or two ways. The
Speaker 12: judge can pick the foreman but doesn't pick the form
Speaker 12: until the end of the trial, or picks the foreman.
Speaker 12: You know. The judge could pick whoever they want. Uh,
Speaker 12: and I believe it or not, could be best on
Speaker 12: site or on va deer. But a lot of judges
Speaker 12: just picked the juror sitting in seat number nine as
Speaker 12: the foreman, which is the front seat closest to the box.
Speaker 8: Uh.
Speaker 12: You know, and words, if you're sitting in the right seat,
Speaker 12: you could be the foreman. In this particular case, I
Speaker 12: doubt very much that that the cop was sitting the
Speaker 12: former cop was sitting in seat number nine, So I
Speaker 12: don't know how he was picked. I'm just telling you
Speaker 12: how the foreman are usually picked. As far as this
Speaker 12: guy goes and his background, I had heard that there
Speaker 12: was a former cop on the jury, which made me
Speaker 12: think that someone wasn't paying attention or there was something
Speaker 12: about him in his background and his question error and
Speaker 12: is what there that made people think he would be
Speaker 12: a good juror for the defense and or the prosecution.
Speaker 12: So I don't know why tell you, Bob.
Speaker 8: What would have your instinct told you without knowing much
Speaker 8: about him as a police officer in the case that
Speaker 8: involved the death of the police officer, and also some
Speaker 8: secondary theories as to if there were police all over
Speaker 8: this case inside the house.
Speaker 12: You know, I would to put a cup on that
Speaker 12: jury in a thousand years. That's all I could tell you.
Speaker 12: If it was me, you would would I would?
Speaker 13: I would not.
Speaker 12: Not, Okay, I put it a cup on that jury
Speaker 12: with the allegations.
Speaker 8: Go ahead, daniel Go ahead, Danielle.
Speaker 5: That's the big that's the big hang up is no
Speaker 5: you know, because Alton, it's a picked and it bumped somebody.
Speaker 5: So she picked him so that we knew there's no
Speaker 5: way he was getting bumped. That was her guy, right, You.
Speaker 12: Pick, you pick. You picked the foreman first, and the
Speaker 12: foreman is the only person immune to the bump. Every
Speaker 12: other juror in that box to get bumped after you
Speaker 12: pick a foreman. That is common. That is common practice.
Speaker 5: Okay, okay, because that's one thing that's talked about in
Speaker 5: a lot of other states that they say that that's odd.
Speaker 5: And I thought I read somewhere that in Massachusetts law
Speaker 5: that that is how it works. So I just wasn't sure.
Speaker 12: Well the well, the reason you don't pick the reason
Speaker 12: you don't pick a foreman early in the trial is
Speaker 12: you don't want someone to take charge over the other
Speaker 12: jurors when everyone's an equal, uh, while they're listening to
Speaker 12: the evidence. You never pick a formative the end of
Speaker 12: a trial. And you also have everybody maintaining attention or
Speaker 12: paying attention thinking they might be the foreman at the
Speaker 12: end of a trial. So that's why you don't pick
Speaker 12: a foreman until the very end.
Speaker 5: And the vertict slips was the other big thing that
Speaker 5: you know, she even looked to you and Eddie to say, hey,
Speaker 5: you know you've been in my in the courtrooms before,
Speaker 5: and he even said, and I've never seen a vertic
Speaker 5: slip like this.
Speaker 4: She.
Speaker 8: Slip if I'm flipped. I'm not saying it's.
Speaker 11: That nobody sees.
Speaker 5: Nobody saw the altered version that was never seen. So
Speaker 5: they were very So there was a lot of talk,
Speaker 5: I guess the jurors that have come forward and said,
Speaker 5: there's been a lot of talk about that, and the
Speaker 5: fact that the language and some of the like the
Speaker 5: manslaughter one, this language in there about causing a chain
Speaker 5: of events that ultimately to the death. So the fact
Speaker 5: that she just simply dropped him off at this party
Speaker 5: and he ultimately died is what they were hung on.
Speaker 5: And so so it just seemed like there was a
Speaker 5: lot of confusing language that caused them to they like
Speaker 5: overthought it, so to speak.
Speaker 8: And I think Danielle has followed this case very closely,
Speaker 8: very perfectly. Me get a quick comment from either Bill
Speaker 8: or Danielle. I'm up on my break here, but I
Speaker 8: want to get a quick comment from uh Bill, kick
Speaker 8: him on, Bob George on anything that you happen to say.
Speaker 11: Gentlemen, Bob pretty much nailed it, you know.
Speaker 12: The funny thing, And the funny thing is is that
Speaker 12: a lot of people know a lot more about what
Speaker 12: went on in this case than us. And the fact
Speaker 12: is this is the reason when you listen to Danielle
Speaker 12: on the phone, this is the reason of what here
Speaker 12: or a hearing with these jurors could be a Handora's
Speaker 12: box of flying bats coming out of that court room
Speaker 12: if they ever reopened, you know, an inquiry into what
Speaker 12: happened in that jury room. When you have these kinds
Speaker 12: of hearings, you're supposed to limit it to the to
Speaker 12: you know, the vote, what was the vote on count one?
Speaker 12: What was the vote on bound.
Speaker 8: Bob? If the twelve jurors are sitting there and uh,
Speaker 8: and she asked them either in camera in her chambers
Speaker 8: or in open court. Maybe she does it first in camera,
Speaker 8: then she does it in open court. Did you she
Speaker 8: could say did you reach a unanimous verdict on any
Speaker 8: of the charges.
Speaker 12: I'm not saying that she can't say that.
Speaker 8: No, I'm just saying that would keep the pidora's box
Speaker 8: a little close.
Speaker 12: No, let me tell you right now, the reason that
Speaker 12: judges don't stick their noses into the jury room is
Speaker 12: for the very reason, uh, that that that could come
Speaker 12: true here, which is that all of these different things
Speaker 12: like how did the jury form and treat other people?
Speaker 12: What was it? You know, was he trying to direct
Speaker 12: the verdict one way or the other? Was he trying
Speaker 12: to you know more?
Speaker 8: Judge could control that. She just doesn't bring that up
Speaker 8: as an issue or as a question.
Speaker 11: Right, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 8: Daniel, Thank you for the call. That was a great
Speaker 8: call ahead.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it that.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much.
Speaker 8: Have a good night, gentlemen, you can, you could if
Speaker 8: you're willing to stay, that would be great. If, on
Speaker 8: the other hand, either of you have an out of
Speaker 8: town commitment or an intown commitment. Uh and and you'd
Speaker 8: like to be off the jury of this moment? What
Speaker 8: what is? What is your choice? Do you guys want
Speaker 8: to stay or or get onto other things on a Friday.
Speaker 12: Night, Jesus say a little longer. If Bill wants to stay,
Speaker 12: that's fine.
Speaker 8: Okay, So, uh my my panel of experts, Attorney, Bill,
Speaker 8: Kick Journey, Bob George will stay. I gotta stay. But
Speaker 8: I enjoy this. I am enjoying this. I don't get
Speaker 8: a chance to talk to Bob or Bill as often
Speaker 8: as I would like. When I was a TV reporter
Speaker 8: out working in the courtrooms, we had lots of opportunities
Speaker 8: to interact. And here on nightside, this for me is
Speaker 8: a special conversation. It's one that I'm I'm just curious.
Speaker 8: This is one that has really I had no interest
Speaker 8: in the Karen Reid case. I had no interest in
Speaker 8: a lot of the early stuff in the Karen Reid case.
Speaker 8: This issue as a lawyer interests me. We'll be back
Speaker 8: on nightside if you'd like to join the conversation, Ask
Speaker 8: a question, express a view points six one, seven, two, five, four,
Speaker 8: ten thirty or six one seven, nine three one ten
Speaker 8: thirty back right after.
Speaker 14: This night side with Dan Ray on' WBZY, Boston's news radio.
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Speaker 10: I'm Al Griffith's Night.
Speaker 14: Side with Dan on WBZ Boston's News Radio.
Speaker 8: Thank you, Al Griffith. With me, Attorney Bill Kickham of Westwood,
Speaker 8: Attorney Bob George, both very experienced attorneys here in Massachusetts.
Speaker 8: We're talking about the the latest appeal from the Karen
Speaker 8: Read case, which will be heard by the State Supreme
Speaker 8: Court in November. Very quick before we go right back
Speaker 8: to Carls, gentlemen, and that is is the whole double
Speaker 8: jeopardy due process argument as an underpinning to this affirmative
Speaker 8: obligation concept that that we've talked about. Is the is
Speaker 8: the SJAC going to worry about double jeopardy or due
Speaker 8: process for Karen reid h in the context of this argument,
Speaker 8: or will they just focus simply on the fact that
Speaker 8: there is no affirmative obligation for the judge in this case.
Speaker 11: Well, exit the one presently. But I think that they
Speaker 11: the constitutional issues a double jepathy, not.
Speaker 12: That they will be around.
Speaker 8: Okay, go ahead, Bob again, Rob, can you clean up?
Speaker 8: I don't know what sort of a phone bill is
Speaker 8: on here. We got to get them a better phone.
Speaker 8: Go ahead, Bob.
Speaker 12: Well, you know, the double jeopardy argument is an attractive
Speaker 12: argument because it would prevent the prosecution from ever trying
Speaker 12: or again on those two counts. That's why they did
Speaker 12: they make that argument. To process is something they're saying,
Speaker 12: you know, is important to them in evaluating whether or
Speaker 12: not the judge should have asked. So, you know, those
Speaker 12: are constitutional arguments that also set the table uh for
Speaker 12: for them to go further into the federal Court or
Speaker 12: into or if it ever got to that point to
Speaker 12: take a writ all the way up to the US
Speaker 12: Supreme Court on these issues, if they wanted to go
Speaker 12: that far with it, and if they need.
Speaker 8: A rig would they have to have a conviction to
Speaker 8: to apply for.
Speaker 12: A writ, Well, they'd have to. They'd have to look for,
Speaker 12: you know, a writ only if there's a conviction. But
Speaker 12: if you're making federal if you're making these constitutional arguments,
Speaker 12: you're setting yourself up for that type of appeal you
Speaker 12: know later. I mean, these are attractive arguments to constitutional
Speaker 12: lawyers and to appellate lawyers. So the bottom line is
Speaker 12: they're just they're just doing what they have to do
Speaker 12: to set this thing up for a further appeal later.
Speaker 12: If that's what they need to do.
Speaker 8: Sure. Let me go to Chris down of the Cape.
Speaker 8: Chris on a rainy Cape Cod Chris, welcome. You're on
Speaker 8: with Bill Kickham and Bob George are both great attorneys.
Speaker 13: I do know that I think from the outer Cape
Speaker 13: an attorney involved in the Christa Worthington trial, Bob, that
Speaker 13: you tried, you know, very very artfully.
Speaker 12: Chris, Snow, how are you, Chris?
Speaker 15: How are you?
Speaker 13: Thanks? Crowding me.
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, yeah, small world, good.
Speaker 13: Yeah, but you wouldn't want to paint it. Uh that
Speaker 13: that said, one of the questions I have very casually,
Speaker 13: you know, followed this, but it is a riveting, uh
Speaker 13: fact pattern. What are your thoughts as highly respected defense
Speaker 13: attorneys and you have to look at the fact Dan
Speaker 13: that hello, Dan, these aren't defense attorneys as am I.
Speaker 13: One of the questions I had casually following this is
Speaker 13: that was there an obligation on the defense to pull
Speaker 13: the jury when they came back with a declaration of
Speaker 13: a mistrial? And was the defense a little elated that
Speaker 13: the fact that they at least got a mistrial as
Speaker 13: opposed to a guilty.
Speaker 8: My answer to the second part of that question is yes,
Speaker 8: I don't. I don't think they have a right to
Speaker 8: hold the jury where they were they're saying, they're hung gentlemen.
Speaker 11: They were elated when they got when that when the
Speaker 11: mistrial came through, they were quite fully stuf.
Speaker 12: Like like Chris just said they were.
Speaker 11: They were they.
Speaker 12: Were out on the front steps of the courthouse, you know,
Speaker 12: already having their press conference after you know, after the
Speaker 12: mistrial and declaring victory, which of course it is a victory.
Speaker 8: But Christ first, Chris's first question was could they pull
Speaker 8: the jury. I think they can pull the jury after
Speaker 8: the conviction comes in, particularly if you're if you're the
Speaker 8: defense and it's guilty. But can they pull the jury
Speaker 8: who said they're hung?
Speaker 12: So the trouble is, Chris, is if they if they
Speaker 12: pull that jury, you're pulling. You're pulling them on the
Speaker 12: hum You're not pulling them on each count. But but
Speaker 12: on every case I've ever had, uhh, that I've lost
Speaker 12: that you know, you you always ask to pull the
Speaker 12: jury so you could see the hesitance. If you see
Speaker 12: a hesitance in a juror when they're announcing guilty, you know,
Speaker 12: where did you vote guilty? You're guilty, You're you're you're
Speaker 12: looking at them to see where your weak spots are.
Speaker 12: On the other hand, even if there is a weak spot,
Speaker 12: you still cannot reach out for those jurors. You cannot
Speaker 12: reach out for them because you'll end up at the
Speaker 12: border bar overseers. Yeah, you know, answering to the panel
Speaker 12: up there. And believe me, I'm an expert on that.
Speaker 12: So the bottom line, the bottom line here is even
Speaker 12: if you know and see someone's weak maybe later, maybe later,
Speaker 12: if they're calling you like we see. The trouble with
Speaker 12: this case is the calls are not necessarily coming in
Speaker 12: from the jurors like they came into me after them
Speaker 12: accounting Casey, I was getting calls directly from the jurors.
Speaker 12: In this case, the calls are coming in third and
Speaker 12: fourth hand hearsay in a totem bold fashion through friends
Speaker 12: of jurors or people who took screenshots of conversations between jurors.
Speaker 12: The jurors themselves, with the exception of maybe one did
Speaker 12: not directly contact anyone. So if you do have this
Speaker 12: hearing that Marty Weinberg is looking for, in the alternative,
Speaker 12: the jurors have to come in and say it. They
Speaker 12: have to say what we're hearing that they may say.
Speaker 12: And that's where the SJAC is going to have to
Speaker 12: look at it and decide, Oh my word, I mean,
Speaker 12: I don't even have the jurors saying it directly to anyone,
Speaker 12: you know, by Appa David or under oath in the courtroom.
Speaker 12: And now I'm going to tip this thing upside down
Speaker 12: and start shaking it around to find out what happened
Speaker 12: in that jury room. And I'm telling you whether they
Speaker 12: do it or not, and I hope they do. But
Speaker 12: whether they do it or not, they don't want to
Speaker 12: do it. I could tell you they don't want to
Speaker 12: do it.
Speaker 11: The motivation's not there.
Speaker 12: Well, who wants to say, really one? I mean, there
Speaker 12: was an option here to clean it up.
Speaker 13: I hear, Bob.
Speaker 8: According to Travis Anderson's piece into Vay's Globe, he writes,
Speaker 8: lawyers for Reid have said, now again I realized the
Speaker 8: hearsay component of this, but lawyers are also lawyers, they're
Speaker 8: officers at the point. Lawyers for Reid have said that
Speaker 8: after her first trial ended with Hunduri in July, multiple
Speaker 8: jurors contacted them to say they unanimously voted to a
Speaker 8: quit read on those two charges. Will most jurors voted
Speaker 8: to convict her on a manslaught of charge. Travis anders
Speaker 8: is a pretty good reporter from my recollection, and we.
Speaker 12: See Travis Dan Dan. Travis is a great reporter. But
Speaker 12: he's telling you know, news reporting isn't the same as
Speaker 12: filing an affict David in the open court. It's not
Speaker 12: the same as getting in the winnesstand. So I'm telling
Speaker 12: you that my memory, my memory of what I've seen
Speaker 12: and I've read, you know, I've read some of some
Speaker 12: of it, if not all of it, and I and
Speaker 12: I'm more closely involved in it in different ways since
Speaker 12: it happened, because I like reading this stuff. But I
Speaker 12: can tell you that I believe. I believe that the
Speaker 12: jurors themselves have not reduced anything to writing, have not
Speaker 12: identified themselves, have not, you know, uh, directly contacted the court.
Speaker 12: And that is going to be issue for a hearing.
Speaker 12: But if the judge orders them in or the SJAC
Speaker 12: orders them in, you have their names. The judge is
Speaker 12: just going to bring them in one by one and
Speaker 12: then they're going to have to say it on the
Speaker 12: witness stand. How did you vote on one? How did
Speaker 12: you vote on two? How did your vote on three?
Speaker 12: The trouble is you don't have that yet, and do
Speaker 12: you have enough now based on what you know? What
Speaker 12: Travis Anderson's reporting isn't enough. I'm telling you what does
Speaker 12: the court know? Conone knows. Conone knows because she's already
Speaker 12: reviewed it all and making her decision, And the SJC
Speaker 12: knows because it's part of the record appendix that's going
Speaker 12: to be in front of them at this hearing in October.
Speaker 12: Then then they'll decide whether it's enough for them. I'm
Speaker 12: telling you, you know, I'm telling you what I think
Speaker 12: might happen for them to remant it down there for
Speaker 12: a full blown hearing like we had Chris in the
Speaker 12: McCowan case in two thousand and seven, when every single
Speaker 12: juror had to come in and then Judge Nickerson denied
Speaker 12: the motion anyway. So the issue is do you deny
Speaker 12: it now, do you deny it after a hearing, or
Speaker 12: does just canon't hear it and then allow it. That's
Speaker 12: those are the kinds of things that perhaps the s
Speaker 12: JC might want to see.
Speaker 8: The other album knew. This is a case that has
Speaker 8: had tremendous not only local interest, but also national interest.
Speaker 8: This is this is really almost risen, not quite to
Speaker 8: the level of an O. J. Simpson case in terms
Speaker 8: of national comportimity, not far from it. Yeah, absolutely, Chris,
Speaker 8: thank you very much for your call.
Speaker 13: Yeah, so my point with Barb.
Speaker 8: Chris finished, finish up. I didn't mean to cut you off.
Speaker 13: Go ahead, christ right, Yeah, Yeah, My point is that
Speaker 13: I think it would you were on the precipice, if
Speaker 13: you were a defense attorney and elated by the fact that,
Speaker 13: oh good, we've got a mistrial, so they'll they'll drop
Speaker 13: this because all of the witnesses are on the prosecution
Speaker 13: are so compromised. However, I think that the expeditious way
Speaker 13: to have handled this by Judge Canone is to simply say,
Speaker 13: all right, we'll have a in camera review of this,
Speaker 13: we'll have a hearing on this, and it would have
Speaker 13: avoided going up. But it's a very interesting I think
Speaker 13: in part I'm precedented in my experience that there are
Speaker 13: all a whole four or five jurors coming in on
Speaker 13: affidavits saying that.
Speaker 8: Well, Bob George says he doesn't know of any affidavits.
Speaker 13: But oh well, I guess I'm wrong on that.
Speaker 8: Yeah, Okay, well so far we're all shooting in the
Speaker 8: dark a little bit because we're not experts on it.
Speaker 8: For me, it's just an interesting question, and for me,
Speaker 8: from my perspective is why would she not have said
Speaker 8: to the to the jury foreman, just as a matter
Speaker 8: of practice, are you telling the court you're hung on
Speaker 8: all three counts?
Speaker 11: Right? That's my That's the point that I've been trying
Speaker 11: to and that's the question as to whether the s
Speaker 11: jac will move to establish an affirmative obligation on the
Speaker 11: pod of trial judges to do that.
Speaker 8: Sure, well, sure it may not. It's the way. It's
Speaker 8: the way the court works, whether it's the Miranda decision
Speaker 8: back in the nineteen sixties, at some point the US
Speaker 8: Supreme Court said, yeah, you know, you have to give
Speaker 8: the guy the rights. You can't talk to him until
Speaker 8: you've you've mirandurized him. Gentlemen, I got to take a
Speaker 8: quick break. We got one more call, Chris, thank you
Speaker 8: so much for calling. Great to hear your boys.
Speaker 13: Thank you so much. A great family.
Speaker 8: You have the best, the best.
Speaker 13: Uh.
Speaker 8: We'll take a break, and Bob, I'm going to hold
Speaker 8: you and build for another six or seven minutes, and
Speaker 8: I'll promise I'll let you go at noontime rather at
Speaker 8: eleven o'clock. Quick, Rob, can you take the line six
Speaker 8: down please? My mouse here is not working properly. We'll
Speaker 8: be back right after this quick break on night Side.
Speaker 14: Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World,
Speaker 14: Nice Sin Studios.
Speaker 6: I'MBZ the news radio all right.
Speaker 8: Time for one quick call and a quick wrap from
Speaker 8: both of my guests, who I very much appreciate that
Speaker 8: Bill Kickhim a journey, Bill kick him and at Journey
Speaker 8: Bob Georgia spent an hour of their Friday night with
Speaker 8: us Jason and Norwood. Jason, Well, oh great, we just
Speaker 8: lost Jason. I got there's something wrong with my board here, Rob.
Speaker 8: If he calls back, let me know him. We'll put
Speaker 8: Jason right back up because I went to click him
Speaker 8: on and now and he's gone. Jason, call back if
Speaker 8: you want to try to get you on. Let me
Speaker 8: get gentlemen, as we wrap this up here, the most
Speaker 8: likely result from this hearing before that, as a threshold question,
Speaker 8: do either of you take any guidance from the fact
Speaker 8: that the gatekeeper allowed this to go forward to the
Speaker 8: full court?
Speaker 11: I do, Yeah, I do think it reflects the gravity
Speaker 11: of what's going on here, not just in this.
Speaker 13: Particular case, but procedure procedure.
Speaker 8: In George, do you agree with that? I don't know.
Speaker 11: Yeah.
Speaker 12: Judge Joor, who kicked the case up to the full benches,
Speaker 12: I believe she's new to the court and has you know.
Speaker 12: I think she took Judge Judge, she just got to
Speaker 12: point it to the bench within the last year, I believe.
Speaker 12: And the fact is it's a good move. It's a
Speaker 12: good move at the whole bench way, and because they
Speaker 12: have a right to appeal it from her anyway, Sure.
Speaker 8: We have we have Jason back. Rob, you bring Jason up.
Speaker 8: I don't trust my mouse right now, go ahead, Jason,
Speaker 8: welcome to nightside.
Speaker 21: I will be quick, and I think I'll try and
Speaker 21: leave time for the attorneys to respond, not the case,
Speaker 21: which might be another motivate.
Speaker 8: I have no idea. What's wrong with your line? Jason?
Speaker 11: Uh?
Speaker 8: Uh? I? Rob, give it, give it a ten second?
Speaker 8: Uh fix? And and let's give it a shot. Let's
Speaker 8: give it a shot. If he's there, okay, Rob? Is
Speaker 8: he Is he there or not? If not, we're going
Speaker 8: to leave it. We lost him, okay. Well, maybe maybe
Speaker 8: he hung up in the first place. Maybe it wasn't
Speaker 8: my mouse, gentlemen, I think Bob George thinks it's going
Speaker 8: to be remanded back to canone conone. I'm not sure
Speaker 8: the pronunciation of her name. Uh is that true? Bob?
Speaker 12: I believe that Dad is a good possibility, and it's
Speaker 12: something that can very well happen fair enough.
Speaker 8: A bit of a prediction from you, Bill, kick him?
Speaker 11: Yeah, I think it's a distinct distinct possibility. It's it's
Speaker 11: not a certainty it is going to happen, and it's
Speaker 11: not a certainty that it's not. But I think, I think,
Speaker 11: I think it's a good chance it may happen.
Speaker 12: All Right, you got yourself out, and not to undermine
Speaker 12: what you think, Dan, I just don't think they're going
Speaker 12: to make new law in this case. I don't think so.
Speaker 8: Hey, guess that's why. That's why I'm not practicing law
Speaker 8: full time like you guys, that I'm running a shark show. Gentlemen,
Speaker 8: thank you both very much for your uh, your generosity
Speaker 8: of time to know.
Speaker 11: Okay, I really do, Okay, glad to be here.
Speaker 8: You can find him in Westwood and Bob George easily available.
Speaker 8: I know you would. You're you're out of town tonight,
Speaker 8: and you gave us a good chuck of time, Bob,
Speaker 8: so I'm particularly intended too. Yeah, wherever, wherever.
Speaker 11: Thanks Bob, Thank you, Dan, Okay, all right.
Speaker 8: Absolutely, thanks Bill. That's the beauty of being able to
Speaker 8: work remotely when we come back. One of my favorite
Speaker 8: hours we're only doing about every four months or so.
Speaker 8: Brushes with celebrity. Everyone has met a celebrity. How did
Speaker 8: they treat you the good, the bad, or the ugly.
Speaker 8: This is your opportunity to tell us who was nice
Speaker 8: and maybe who wasn't. My name's Dan Ray. This is nightside.
Speaker 8: We wrapped the week on the other side of the
Speaker 8: eleven o'clock nurse