WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.200 The Projection Booth podcast is sponsored by Scarecrow Video. Try 2 00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:06.320 out Scarecrows run by mail service juice from over one 3 00:00:06.400 --> 00:00:08.919 hundred and fifty thousand films that get Blu rays, four 4 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:13.439 k's and DVDs delivered directly to your door. Visit scarecrow 5 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:14.679 dot com today. 6 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:22.839 Oh gez, folks, it's showtime. 7 00:00:23.559 --> 00:00:25.480 People say good money to see this movie. 8 00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:28.440 When they go out to a theater. They want clothed, sodas, 9 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:32.119 hot popcorn in. No monsters in the projection Booth. 10 00:00:32.280 --> 00:00:34.119 Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring. 11 00:00:35.159 --> 00:00:35.880 Cut it off. 12 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:01.119 W A R. 13 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:04.159 H A W. 14 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:07.840 It don't look much like a private detective domain s KI. 15 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:08.680 Who are you. 16 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:10.319 V? 17 00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:15.879 I Washawski Kathleen Turner is bi Worshawski's V stand for 18 00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:20.840 virtuous and the inquisitive, looking for something. 19 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:23.079 Just because she's a. 20 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:26.040 Woman, hardest, blown out of casual. 21 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:28.159 Doesn't mean she's always a lady. 22 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:29.439 Into the point bonehead. 23 00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:34.079 Sorry about that, guys. You know what this is. 24 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:35.040 It's a nutcracker. 25 00:01:35.319 --> 00:01:40.319 You know what we do with nutcrackers. 26 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:42.599 You let it broad do this deal. 27 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:54.599 Me, I Washshawski said, V stand for my first name. 28 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:57.319 You're a funny lady, try beautiful. 29 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:02.159 It works much better. Believe I'm hiring it to find 30 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:03.280 out who killed my dad. 31 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:05.719 Being a detective, there's no job for a girl like you. 32 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:08.639 These guys are playing hardball. I have this feeling in 33 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:09.000 my gut. 34 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:15.759 Woman's intuition, get old, stop case. Never underestimated. 35 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:23.599 Woman Kathleen Turner is Worsowski's close. 36 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:26.000 What's that you're i Q are the size of your dream? 37 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:28.840 V I Warshowski. 38 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:31.520 My friends call me Vick. 39 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:39.000 Welcome to the projection booth. I'm your host, Mike White. 40 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:42.199 Joining me once again is Ms Rain Alexander. 41 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:43.319 Hey, Hey, glad to be here. 42 00:02:43.879 --> 00:02:46.039 Also back in the booth is Miss Dahlias Schweitzer. 43 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:48.120 Hi, I'm so excited to be here. 44 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:52.639 November twenty five continues with a look at Jeff Canoes 45 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:57.039 nineteen ninety one film VR Worsshowski, based loosely on the 46 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:00.840 character created by Sarah Peretzky. The film starts Kathleen Turner 47 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:04.960 as the titular detective who gets stuck babysitting the daughter 48 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:07.719 of a man she just met and who just got 49 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:12.240 killed on her mysterious circumstances. We will be spoiling the 50 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:16.319 mystery of what happened to former Blackhawks player Boom Boom 51 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:20.039 and what the VII stands for as we go along. 52 00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:22.199 So if we don't want anything ruined, please turn off 53 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:25.319 the podcast and come back after you've seen the movie. So, Dahalia, 54 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:27.520 when was the first time you saw Via Warshowski and 55 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:28.319 what did you think? 56 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:32.919 I saw it when it was first released, and I 57 00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:37.199 was young and naive, and I thought it was great. 58 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:40.919 I've always loved detective stories, and you know, it's so 59 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:43.639 rare to get one with the woman that I thought 60 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:46.680 it was pretty great. My opinion of the movie has 61 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:48.080 changed over time, and. 62 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:49.000 Rain, how about yourself? 63 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:52.800 You know I also saw it when it was first released, 64 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:56.639 and it was a profound bummer. One of those films 65 00:03:56.639 --> 00:03:58.919 where I think we I feel like we just walked 66 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:05.199 out silently and went to Denny's. It was underwhelming. It 67 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:08.719 was a time when I was seeing every Kathleen Turner 68 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:13.639 film sight unseen almost I feel like, and I don't know, 69 00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:17.279 felt quite let down. And I'm not so sure that 70 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:19.959 my feelings have changed in the ensuing years. 71 00:04:20.920 --> 00:04:23.519 I did not see this when it came out. I 72 00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:26.319 actually remember it opening though, because I was still working 73 00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:29.360 at a movie theater when this came out, and I 74 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:35.959 remember the standee for this with apparently not Kathleen Turner's body. 75 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:39.879 Somewhere in the trivia I read whose body that actually is? 76 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:43.399 And then her head pasted on it. Yeah, this was 77 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:48.279 still before things like Undercover Blues, which I didn't watch. 78 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:51.360 I think I got really kind of turned off because 79 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:55.439 of War of the Roses and just how I don't know, 80 00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:57.600 this sounds so weird for me to say me, of 81 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:01.639 all people, just how mean spirited that movie was. It 82 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:05.439 was okay for me the entire way through until there 83 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:10.439 was a implication of a dog being eaten. That was 84 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:14.160 a bridge too far. But pretty much everything else I 85 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:16.439 mean especially, I mean I was a big fan of 86 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:20.160 Kathleen Turner. I definitely went to see The Jewel of 87 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:23.720 the Nile and Romancing the Stone when those were movies 88 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:27.920 were out. I saw The Man with Two Brains. I 89 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:32.000 wasn't old enough to see Crimes of Passion in the 90 00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:34.839 movie theater, but I definitely saw that late night on 91 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:40.360 cable and definitely enjoyed it. It made quite an impression 92 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:44.120 to a twelve year old, So yeah, that was a 93 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:46.600 big moment for me. But this one, Yeah, I didn't 94 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:50.160 see it until just a few years ago, and yeah, 95 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:52.959 I was kind of underwhelmed by it, and it seemed 96 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:55.519 to suffer from that thing that we get where we 97 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:59.240 decide that we have to pair up somebody, especially a 98 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:02.920 police person or a detective, with a little girl or 99 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:06.079 a little boy, and man o man, does that usually 100 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:08.199 not fly for me? And it really didn't fly for 101 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:09.160 me in this movie. 102 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:12.240 You know, I'm a I'm a huge fan of Gloria, 103 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.879 both versions, but of course, you know the original film 104 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:18.920 and you know, after you've like hit that high water mark, 105 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:22.000 how can you come down from that? I know others 106 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:26.519 will compare this to like Paper Moon, sure, but it's 107 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:28.720 less of a caper film in the way that you know, 108 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:31.399 Gloria was more of a film about protecting this child 109 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:35.439 and like kind of taking on this role that you 110 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:38.199 were not expecting to do. And of course, you know, 111 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:43.000 there's certainly physical resemblance between General Rolands and Kathleen Turner 112 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:46.560 which would bring that Gloria idea to mind. Yeah, you know, 113 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:49.600 it's definitely got that, you know, adding Oliver to the 114 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:52.800 cast of a Brady Munch kind of vibe going on 115 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:54.600 in this film, and. 116 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:58.800 What's weird is that it's solidly a rated R film. 117 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:01.639 That there are are I don't even know how many 118 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:04.000 fucks on the soundtrack, and you've got even the little 119 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:06.839 girl saying fuck a few times, like that whole are 120 00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:11.040 you fucking my dad? She says, once seriously to Kathleen 121 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:13.800 Turner and once as a joke to the woman that 122 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:18.519 Jay Saunders is sleeping with. Who oh god. I looked 123 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:20.199 up what else she was in. She was only in 124 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:23.079 like two things, but I was fans of both of them. 125 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:26.319 It's like, okay, so we're saying, fuck, We've got some 126 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:30.319 pretty good violence in here, not terribly, you know, not 127 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:33.120 peeling back fingernails or anything like that. You know, I 128 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:36.959 just watched Drive again the other night, and it's like, okay, yeah, 129 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:39.720 that's uh. That's got some good violence with like hammers 130 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:42.519 and things like that. But yet you've got the little 131 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:45.839 kid in here, which feels like such a PG thirteen 132 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:48.519 thing to do. So it just feels like this movie 133 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:50.519 is like almost fighting with itself. 134 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:53.879 I would argue that it's not so much a PG 135 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:57.079 thirteen thing to do, but a misogynistic thing to do, 136 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:02.240 because the implication is, first of all, that v I 137 00:08:02.360 --> 00:08:05.319 can't solve crime on her own, that she needs a sidekick, 138 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:08.040 but that the fact that she needs a sidekick that's 139 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:12.920 a child is incredibly demeaning. And then the fact that 140 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:16.560 vi I is constantly preoccupied with the question of whether 141 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:19.240 or not she'd make a good mother, and then at 142 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:21.959 the end of the movie she ends up becoming a mother, 143 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:24.560 you know, and that's sort of like, oh, now that's 144 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:28.120 the you know, that's the happy ending. Now watching the film, 145 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:31.360 that and her weight are the two things that drive 146 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:32.000 me crazy. 147 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:37.279 Yeah, that opening sequence really really drove me nuts. You know, 148 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.240 we're being given such a mixed message from the beginning. 149 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:46.360 This character, who you know, is you know, kind of 150 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:49.759 rough and tumble, doesn't you know, apparently doesn't care how 151 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:52.799 she smells, right, she like picks up a sweatshirt off 152 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:56.279 the ground and smells it. But then she weighs herself, 153 00:08:56.679 --> 00:08:59.919 she goes out on a morning run, you know, like 154 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:04.559 is kind of engaging in these like you know whatever 155 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:07.159 body conscious kinds of things. And this is not to 156 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:11.639 say that American women are not full of contradictions, but like, 157 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:13.639 in the case of this, we're trying to build a 158 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:18.720 character here, and it's just conflicts from the beginning that 159 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:22.080 really really don't make sense and more to the point, 160 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:26.159 don't connect with who I think they're target audience should 161 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:29.799 have been, which is you know me, and I'm presuming 162 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:30.399 you tell ya. 163 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:31.200 Well. 164 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:34.000 I think the conflict that you're sensing is the difference 165 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:37.600 between the character as she's written in the books and 166 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:41.320 the character as she's presented in the movie. Because the 167 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:44.399 character in the books is not worried about her way, 168 00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:48.399 she's worried about being fit. Somewhere in the writing process 169 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:51.159 they decided to dilute all this message. I mean, the 170 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:55.440 kid isn't in the book either, so somehow they kind 171 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:59.320 of inserted all these other messages into the movie that 172 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:03.840 don't work because they aren't in the original source material. 173 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:08.240 And it's fine if a character is a slob, that's 174 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:13.000 absolutely fine. And I really didn't mind her opening up 175 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:15.639 the fridge and just like, oh, yeah, everything's gone bad 176 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:17.679 and stuff. But at the same time, it does feel 177 00:10:17.720 --> 00:10:20.519 like it's undercutting her and really kind of casting judgment 178 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:23.519 on her more than if it was a Walter Matho 179 00:10:23.720 --> 00:10:26.200 or something. Oh isn't that funny? But when it comes 180 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:28.559 to this, it's like, oh my gosh, this woman how 181 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:33.080 can she live this way? You know, it's like, yeah, relax, 182 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:35.759 but I also don't like that when she's on her 183 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:38.759 morning run. You've got those guys who and I guess 184 00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:40.879 maybe this is true to life when they're like babe 185 00:10:40.919 --> 00:10:43.440 alert and they all start like woofing at her and stuff. 186 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:45.720 It's like, okay, what are we doing? Which is it 187 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:47.960 going to be? And yeah, the whole thing of like 188 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:50.759 the motherhood and all that. I mean, we have this 189 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:55.000 whole dichotomy of her VII as the good mother and 190 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:58.480 then the I keep wanting to say stepmother, even though 191 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:01.639 she's actually the girl's biological mother, but the girl's mother 192 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:05.519 and she's basically like the evil stepmother type of character. 193 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:08.960 And meanwhile VII is like the virtuous mother. And you 194 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:11.320 even have the whole thing with the egg and the 195 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:14.159 little girl taking care of the egg to show like 196 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:17.600 what kind of mother is she and that she keeps 197 00:11:17.639 --> 00:11:20.399 making mistakes and the egg keeps breaking. It's that whole 198 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:23.039 homech thing where you know, you get the egg and 199 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:24.679 you have to take care of it, and it's like, 200 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:26.840 of course, he just hard boiled the egg. Don't worry 201 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:30.000 about it. Just hard boil the egg. Pretend that you're good, 202 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:32.080 and then maybe on the last day you bring in 203 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:35.080 a replacement egg. You're good. That's all you have to do. 204 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:39.519 But like they even make that very pointed shot of 205 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:43.120 the broken egg on the dock after she runs away 206 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:46.559 from basically learning that her father has been blown up, 207 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:49.960 and it's like, Okay, yeah, I don't know what that 208 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:53.720 has to do with with his death, but definitely shows 209 00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:57.240 how upset she is, and you know, shows that she's 210 00:11:57.279 --> 00:11:59.639 also still not that great of a like the girl 211 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:01.720 a little girl, is not a good mother as well, 212 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:04.000 and it's like, is this a journey for her to 213 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:06.679 learn how to be a good mom? I don't know. 214 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:09.559 I mean, this movie just frustrates me a lot. I 215 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:12.840 like certain things about it, but other things just kind 216 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:16.159 of get under my skin and irk me watching. 217 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:19.360 It through a couple of times in preparation for the podcast, 218 00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:24.039 it became really clear to me that this was in 219 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:28.360 development hell, and that is where I think a lot 220 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:33.600 of this the problems are manifesting nobody's taking responsibility for it. 221 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:36.600 Doing a little research, we find out that like the 222 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:39.879 writer who really salvaged this ultimately doesn't even get credit 223 00:12:40.039 --> 00:12:44.279 on the picture, right goes through all these iterations that 224 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:47.039 you know, I don't really get, and I mean I 225 00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:49.440 don't want to be such a second wave feminist about it, 226 00:12:49.480 --> 00:12:55.360 but like this really feels like some misogynist idea of 227 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:58.320 what women have to put up with, you know, So 228 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:02.519 the you know, being sex harassed while you're jogging, Yes, 229 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:07.080 it definitely happens. Does it happen like that? No, it's worse. 230 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:10.879 Right like those of us who have been sexually harassed, 231 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:14.039 especially when we're feeling like at our like grubbiest and 232 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:17.720 most disgusting, which happens a lot. It's not something that 233 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:21.440 you just like always brush off so easily. Right, if 234 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:25.879 we've had somebody who had any kind of interiority shooting that, 235 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:29.840 looking at it writing it, I think that sequence could 236 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:31.639 have had a lot more. It could have been a 237 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:34.519 lot more effectiveness. It could have landed more with the 238 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:37.159 audience is you know, And I feel like that that 239 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:43.639 idea just infiltrates the entire entire the entire film. Going 240 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:46.879 back to what you were saying about the moldy refrigerator, 241 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:49.960 one of the things that's so fascinating about. 242 00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:54.440 Private detectives is that the better the private detective, you 243 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:58.320 are the worse you are at life. But that there's 244 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:01.720 like this kind of direct ratio, and so the private 245 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:05.080 detective that's why he because usually it's a heat is 246 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:10.799 so often an alcoholic, a smoker, single, maybe has a 247 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:13.639 broken marriage, you know. I mean, it's just you can't 248 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:15.960 be good at being a detective and good at that 249 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.240 other stuff. So in that respect, it makes sense that 250 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.759 of course, you know, her clothes are going to be 251 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:25.159 on the floor, the refrigerator is going to be a disaster. 252 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:28.919 But the problem is is the movie is judging that 253 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:32.360 and because it's a woman, and the woman is supposed 254 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:35.279 to be a good mother or a good housewife, et cetera. 255 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:39.440 And so a woman isn't allowed to have a moldy refrigerator. 256 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:41.519 And so it's you know, if, as you said, like, 257 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:45.519 if this was a male detective, we wouldn't bat an eye, 258 00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:48.759 but because it's a female, it's it's presented in this 259 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:50.000 very judgmental way. 260 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:54.000 Another detective would be out at midnight looking for cat 261 00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:56.919 food for his cat, because it's very particular about the 262 00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:00.480 brain of cat food that it eats. The opening of 263 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:03.720 the movie, once we get past kind of her introduction, 264 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:05.799 which by the way, reminds me a lot of the 265 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:08.320 film Jumping Jack Flash and how they set up the 266 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:11.120 Whoopee Goldberg character, even like the waking up in the 267 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:13.679 morning kind of thing with that start. I mean, we've 268 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:15.840 seen that in so many movies where it's like, Okay, 269 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:18.759 here's the character in the morning doing their morning routine, 270 00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:22.159 and then we have her dressed to the nines in 271 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:25.879 this sausage factory with Stephen Root, and I'm just like, 272 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:29.559 this is Stephen Root the guys in one scene for 273 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:32.879 one minute, and I just kept wondering what is going 274 00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:35.720 on here? And then luckily, you know, we have one 275 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:38.759 version of the script, one of like you said, Rain, 276 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:42.039 this was stuck in development for a long time, at 277 00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:45.559 least four writers on it, one who came back at 278 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:48.639 one point, and the one that kind of stuck around 279 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:51.519 towards the end. Warren Light, who doesn't even get any 280 00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:54.759 credit for this. Seems like he worked with Canoe the most. 281 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:59.399 And there's definitely a lot more of this whole sausage 282 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.639 scene inside of that. And she just kind of makes 283 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:05.679 a flip throwaway line later on as far as like 284 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:07.879 she really needs money, but she didn't want to work 285 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:10.919 for this guy, and it's like, okay, well, why even 286 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:14.279 show the scene? It just seems so superfluous because it's like, 287 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:17.200 and I don't know, maybe this is twenty twenty five 288 00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:21.080 Mike White talking versus nineteen ninety one Mike White talking. 289 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:23.279 But I see Stephen Root show up in a movie 290 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:25.559 and I'm just like, okay, cool, I'm here for it. 291 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:28.000 What's he going to do? This is great? I'm really 292 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:30.360 looking forward to seeing. Oh he's off the screen and 293 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:32.440 we'll never see him again. I kept waiting for us 294 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:35.480 to come back to him, and like when Wayne Knight 295 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:38.879 shows up, I'm just like, Okay, well, ma, you know 296 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:42.840 these two heavy character actors. I'm like, maybe get Wayne 297 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:45.240 Knight earlier in the movie instead of this guy. I 298 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:47.440 don't know what's going on, but I'm just like, I 299 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:49.240 would have liked to have had him come back or 300 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:51.879 have any sort of impact on the narrative at all, 301 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:54.279 and since he doesn't, I'm just like, why do we 302 00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:57.080 even have this scene? Is it just to show her 303 00:16:57.159 --> 00:17:01.360 in a sausage factory, her contrapose against the background where 304 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:03.440 she's got her high heels and there's like a piece 305 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:05.799 of meat in front of her feet. 306 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:09.000 It serves that purpose where it's kind of the cheap 307 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:11.839 joke and it's meant to show us that she is 308 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:14.200 a woman in a man's world and that she doesn't 309 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.319 belong there. You know, the detective needs to be a man, 310 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:21.119 and that there's there's this kind of conflict that's happening. 311 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:25.640 By putting this woman in high heels in the sausage factory, hahu. 312 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.319 It helps set all the dick jokes that come throughout 313 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:31.519 the film, you know, because it's just this endless parade 314 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:34.880 of those. And you know the other thing that I 315 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:39.000 couldn't stop thinking about is I grew up in California, 316 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:42.000 but I grew up reading the classics as you do, 317 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.079 and you know, I read The Jungle like everybody else 318 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:47.480 did in high school. This was my first like exposure 319 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:50.960 to this idea of like Chicago and meat packing and 320 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:53.759 like all these these things that are you know, highly 321 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:56.920 identified with what Chicago is. And I feel like, you know, 322 00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:59.680 listening to some of the commentary from the director, you know, 323 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:02.359 I think that he was really looking for lots of 324 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:05.799 ways to get really interesting and engaging shots, you know, 325 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:08.440 much like he was able to find a location where 326 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:11.559 he could see Wrigley feel from the apartment window. Right, 327 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:14.279 it feels to me like maybe this was just like 328 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:18.039 his attempt at like making something that feels Chicago e 329 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:21.720 In a way, I feel like that's a generous reading 330 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:23.759 of it. But at the same time, like I don't 331 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:28.039 understand otherwise why that scene ended up in the final cut. 332 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:30.640 And then when I think about her, like we were saying, 333 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:33.680 she's there in her high heels and shoes. We'll talk 334 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:36.880 about this more, but shoes play such a major role 335 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:41.039 in this film. But as soon as I see her, Sorry, 336 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:43.599 this could be me just being an awful person, but 337 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:46.640 I see somebody in a factory wearing high heels, I'm like, 338 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:50.160 that's not safe. There's so many greats, so many things, 339 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:53.599 you know, like I've I've been to plants in my 340 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:57.359 life and the rules are very clear, like no high heels. 341 00:18:57.359 --> 00:18:59.799 And I think they even talk about that in the 342 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:04.279 of this which is so completely different. And I know, 343 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:06.519 I think Jeff Canoo says like we adapted one and 344 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:10.240 a half books, and I don't know, there's a strong 345 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:14.559 thread of one book that goes through this. Yeah, I 346 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:16.440 don't know if there's ever a book where she gets 347 00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:18.240 peered up with a little girl but the whole thing 348 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:21.640 of the shipping factory or the shipping and all that 349 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:25.559 and that again going back to that script from nineteen ninety, 350 00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:29.039 I think it was that really even has more of 351 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:32.839 the shipping stuff, but even to the point of just 352 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:35.960 to go to the mystery at the heart of this 353 00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:40.359 whole movie. She meets this guy in a bar. He 354 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:43.839 shows up at her house. What do we think in 355 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:46.720 like an hour later or is it like the next 356 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:49.279 night or something. I'm trying to even figure out the 357 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:52.359 timeline of when he shows up just unannounced at her 358 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:57.160 place with the little girl and he dumps her there 359 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:03.960 with uh Warshowski and then he dies, and now she 360 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:06.559 has to solve his murder. And she's basically solving the 361 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.599 murder for the little girl, right, She's not solving the 362 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:13.200 murder for the guy. But you go back to the book, 363 00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:16.359 that's her cousin. That's her cousin that she grew up 364 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:19.960 with and knew very very well and really liked this guy, 365 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:24.200 her cousin Boom Boom, who worked was on the Blackhawks. 366 00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:28.759 So she has a real vested interest in solving his murder. 367 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:32.839 And he's this outsider, he's not a brother to these 368 00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:36.799 other shipping people. He's working for these shipping people, and 369 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:40.599 he has stumbled onto something that he shouldn't and he's 370 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:44.559 basically like the more amateur detective putting all of these 371 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:47.759 things together, and that's what gets him killed, as opposed 372 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:51.039 to this where it's these three brothers, and I guess 373 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:54.079 fratricide is just a lot easier than killing a stranger 374 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:56.240 in this world. So three brothers who by the way, 375 00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:59.359 looked nothing alike, including the one guy who looks like 376 00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:01.599 a rooster. I kept waiting for him to like sling 377 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:04.559 a guitar across as is, you know, chest, and start 378 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:08.400 playing something, but instead he's like this modern artist, which 379 00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:12.039 just is kind of bizarre. But I mean, there's so 380 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:16.799 little left of the original Peretzky novel in here. I 381 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:19.759 think Chicago is like the biggest thing that stays true 382 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:20.599 to it. 383 00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:22.920 It's funny you talk about the brothers that don't look 384 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.240 anything alike when at the same time you have her 385 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:31.279 reporter friend and this black Hawk's boyfriend or one night 386 00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:33.519 stand or not even one night stand, one night visitor 387 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:37.400 who basically look identical, you know, when they both show 388 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:40.640 up her farmit it's it feels like a joke to 389 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:42.880 me in so many ways, like this visual joke. 390 00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:46.799 They look so similar, and it just feels like such 391 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:50.480 a sitcom type of thing to have all of these 392 00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:52.960 people showing up in her bathroom. It feels like this 393 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:55.519 is something that would happen on friends. And I don't 394 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:57.079 mean that as a compliment. 395 00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:59.039 No, And I think a lot of the jokes are 396 00:21:59.160 --> 00:21:59.519 very sick. 397 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:04.839 Yeah, the whole thing of her going into this bar, 398 00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:07.119 the Golden Glow Bar, and I was glad to find 399 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:09.480 out that that was actually shot at the Green Mill 400 00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:11.519 because I have a friend who's worked at the Green 401 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:14.119 Mill forever. And if you look at pictures of the 402 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:16.440 Green Mill and you look at the Golden Glow, they 403 00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:19.200 just pretty much changed the neon of the name and 404 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:22.640 everything else is the same. But she goes in and 405 00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:27.319 talks with her favorite bartender slash friend, I imagine, and 406 00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:30.640 the bartender's got food for her. She's like, hey, have 407 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.759 some of this, but v I is not happy with that. 408 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:37.359 She wants the box and we find out that inside 409 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:42.079 of the box is this pair of red bedazzled shoes. 410 00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:44.519 Puts on the shoes, She's just like, oh, good shoes 411 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:49.279 make everything better. As a man, I'm not sure about that. 412 00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:53.759 Do you guys just like love putting on new shoes? 413 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:56.640 Is it? Can either of you explain this one to me? 414 00:22:57.519 --> 00:22:59.160 I think it's about being sexy. 415 00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:03.720 I'm shoe conscious, I'm shoe forward. I've loved I love 416 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:07.480 a good shoe. It's not necessarily always I mean, there's 417 00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:11.599 utility to it. But who wouldn't love a new pair 418 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:14.240 of shoes? But I feel like one of the things 419 00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:15.759 that I feel like, I mean, and I have not 420 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:18.240 read the novels myself, so I can't really speak to 421 00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:23.720 that experience. But this is a character quirk of the 422 00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:27.599 I Worshowski. It seems strange to me that it was 423 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:32.039 be fixated on a single pair of shoes. In the 424 00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:34.640 scope of this bill, I feel like I would want 425 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:36.960 to see more of it. It doesn't necessarily need to 426 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:41.319 go into like Emmel de Marco's territory, but as somebody 427 00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:44.400 who's got too many shoes for my own good and 428 00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:46.599 you know, not always a lot of money to like 429 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:50.240 justify that expense, I feel like we should have seen 430 00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:54.319 a little bit more of that to make it feel authentic, 431 00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:57.960 to just even the delivery of that line. Nothing beats 432 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.240 some good pair of shoes, whatever that line happens to be. 433 00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:03.480 I always thought that she was putting on those shoes 434 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:06.160 in order to pick up a guy, and that's why 435 00:24:06.200 --> 00:24:07.440 the shoes lived at the bar. 436 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:11.839 That makes sense because as it is, it's like, why 437 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:16.359 does the bartender have a box basically looks like it's 438 00:24:16.359 --> 00:24:18.720 gift wrapped, but why does she have a box under 439 00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:23.119 the bar at all times? For me, I did to 440 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:26.599 have so Yeah, and then she does use those shoes 441 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:30.720 literally to pick up that guy because she sticks out 442 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:33.559 her leg and hits him, hits his leg and shoe 443 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:36.400 pops off, And we get that joke later on too, 444 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:40.599 where she gets accosted by these two thugs, two care 445 00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:43.839 directors who I mostly well, I love Lee Arenberg and 446 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:47.720 he was fantastic and freaked, but I love him especially 447 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:50.839 and the other guy from Seinfeld. So this is like 448 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:54.759 this Seinfeld is on the air at this point, I 449 00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:56.839 think are just about to be on the air. So 450 00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:00.119 there's like between those two and then Wayne Knight. This 451 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:03.559 is such a time capsule of like early nineties sitcoms 452 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:06.559 like with them and then what Stephen Root was on 453 00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:09.000 What News Radio? At this point, I think I'm turning 454 00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:10.920 this in like the Root cast here, I'm just like, 455 00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:14.279 let's talk more about Stephen Root. She has that whole 456 00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:16.480 thing about you know, oh, you didn't pick up my shoe, 457 00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:20.680 and luckily who is it? One of her friends gives 458 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:23.279 it back to her. Because she's got this like friend 459 00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:27.599 group between like the older woman doctor who takes care 460 00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:31.359 of her. She's got Jay Saunders, who's a reporter who 461 00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:34.880 I guess they sleep together. Maybe they used to be 462 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:37.599 a couple, but she does talk about how she catches 463 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:40.200 him cheating and things, and she pretty much just knows 464 00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:43.759 that he's a dog and knows how to control this 465 00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:46.599 dog too. The whole thing where she calls and leaves 466 00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:49.799 a message, you know, don't do this, don't report about 467 00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:51.640 this thing, this thing and this thing, and then the 468 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:54.240 next morning they're in the morning paper. I mean, you 469 00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:57.240 would think maybe she would pretend to be mad at 470 00:25:57.279 --> 00:25:59.519 him at least, but yeah, this whole idea of like 471 00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:03.920 she knows everything about this guy, can can control him perfectly. 472 00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:06.519 And I love Jay Saunders by the way. Every time 473 00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:09.519 he shows up and stuff, he's great. I always associate 474 00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:13.400 him with well another Wayne Knight film, JFK. I alwayo 475 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:17.640 associate him working with Kevin Costner in that one, and 476 00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:20.359 to see him and Michael Rooker. I would love if 477 00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:23.480 they had been like detective partners in a movie at 478 00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:24.440 some point. 479 00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:27.319 I mean, I feel like the cast all through does 480 00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:30.480 great work, you know, with what they've what they've got. 481 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:33.799 I can't really complain about any of the performances except 482 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:37.720 for the fact that most people aren't given enough to 483 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:41.160 do most or not, you know, I mean, the Stephen 484 00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:45.160 Root probably being the most glaring example of just being 485 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.480 left I guess on the cutting room floor. So it's 486 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:50.640 really not really not the fault of the actors, like 487 00:26:50.680 --> 00:26:53.119 I really really come down on. I think this is 488 00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:56.200 this is a script problem at its root. 489 00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:59.920 And it's Stephen Root. I think the movie looks decent. 490 00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:02.920 I think it's shot pretty well. I do like when 491 00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:06.839 they're making out and you see how they I think 492 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:09.920 canoes using very long lens there, so they're very much 493 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:13.039 in focus and you've got the lights behind them all 494 00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:15.880 out of focus. And hearing him on the audio commentary, 495 00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:18.359 it was very interesting to hear just how much of 496 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:22.119 this movie was shot in Chicago versus shot in California, 497 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:25.359 and a lot of those times. They blend those sequences 498 00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:28.279 in those shots very very well, to the point where 499 00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:32.039 I actually thought this whole thing had been shot in Chicago. 500 00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:35.960 I also thought the whole thing had been shot in Chicago, 501 00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:39.119 so I was surprised on that commentary where he's talking 502 00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:42.720 about like, oh, that's actually in Pasadena, because I had 503 00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:45.799 no idea. But I also thought it was interesting going 504 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:48.319 back to your comment about the long lenses where he 505 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:51.359 makes a really interesting comment where he says that he 506 00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:53.839 likes to shoot with long lenses because some of those 507 00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:57.480 shots would be boring with the regular fifty millimeter lens, 508 00:27:57.880 --> 00:27:59.759 And I was kind of like, oh, that explains why 509 00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:02.759 they're so many long shots in the movie. He's very 510 00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:03.319 fond of them. 511 00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:06.160 And he does have a good eye for casting. I mean, 512 00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:09.440 I like, like we said, great performances, even some of 513 00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:13.599 the smaller performances like her Landlord or you know, just 514 00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:15.559 even like people on the street kind of thing, the 515 00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:19.039 lawyer or the banker. I love that story on the 516 00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:23.119 commentary about how Disney wanted him to reshoot the whole 517 00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:26.440 thing with the banker, the one who helps her with 518 00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:29.640 the and I don't know why he's okay pulling up 519 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:33.079 somebody else's bank account information. You would think that that 520 00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:35.359 would not be good because they're already giving the little 521 00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:39.000 girl trouble depositing a check for somebody else. Which if 522 00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:41.960 somebody wants to deposit a check in my account, feel free, 523 00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:44.119 that's absolutely fine. I don't know if I can like 524 00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:47.119 turn off that safety feature, feel free to just deposit 525 00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:50.680 whatever money you want into my account. But we've got 526 00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.160 that security. But then later on she's like, oh, hey, 527 00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:57.440 here's this account number, and he just pulls up and 528 00:28:57.680 --> 00:28:59.720 turns the thing around, is like, oh, here you go. 529 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:03.400 Look at all of these stumps. Oh my little girl, 530 00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:08.240 you sure have a lot of withdrawn checks. And you know, however, 531 00:29:08.279 --> 00:29:11.359 many I think when they say like billions of dollars 532 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:14.720 in death kind of thing. So it's like, wow, but 533 00:29:14.839 --> 00:29:17.440 you're fine just showing that to anybody. I'm not trying 534 00:29:17.480 --> 00:29:20.640 to like cinema sens this movie or anything, but you know, 535 00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:25.720 I like a really well drawn detective story, and there 536 00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:28.480 are just so many little pieces in here. I'm like, oh, yeah, 537 00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:30.440 that could have been better, that could have been tighter. 538 00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:34.000 And I want to like this movie because I do 539 00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:37.039 like so many of the people in it. I do 540 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:40.640 find the story to be fairly interesting. I just wish 541 00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:44.440 the mystery had been a little bit more to it, 542 00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:48.000 a little bit extra than where it is, because it 543 00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:50.440 doesn't feel it doesn't even feel like that much of 544 00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:53.279 a mystery at the end, because when you see that 545 00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:57.359 little rooster guy and you see the mom you're like, oh, well, 546 00:29:57.400 --> 00:29:59.960 these people aren't very nice people at all, and then 547 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:03.039 they end up basically like screening each other over and 548 00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:06.079 they're the bad guys. I'm like, Okay, shocker. 549 00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:11.079 Not really, it's just so badly written that it kind 550 00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:15.480 of transcends many different problems, you know. So it's badly 551 00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:18.039 written in terms of the misogyny, but it's also badly 552 00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:21.759 written in terms of these kind of sloppy moments where 553 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:25.000 you're like, that doesn't make any sense. And I also 554 00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:27.920 desperately want to like the movie because there's so few 555 00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:32.160 female Private Eye films. They just they had to mess 556 00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:32.559 it up. 557 00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:33.279 And I don't know why. 558 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:35.839 I don't know why they couldn't just have been more 559 00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:36.960 authentic to the book. 560 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:40.000 I mean, when we talked about tank Girl, Mike, you know, 561 00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:44.160 months ago. This is something where clearly the studio is 562 00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:49.200 coming in and messing with something and the scripts or floundering, 563 00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:51.640 and what we end up with is, you know, a 564 00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:56.799 film that arguably could have really become its own franchise, 565 00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:00.920 but because of how bad they fuck it up, you know, 566 00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:05.119 it ends up being a proof that, like, you know, 567 00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:07.000 the film isn't ever going to work. We could never 568 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:09.359 have a franchise like that. Nobody's ever going to want 569 00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:13.799 to watch a female Private Eye film franchise because this 570 00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:17.519 movie was you know, not you know, not what it 571 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:20.079 could have been. And you know, and I think another 572 00:31:20.119 --> 00:31:23.319 thing that is not to be overlooked is that this 573 00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:27.519 film came out like the same summer that Thelman Louise did. 574 00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:31.319 And this was something that was really part of my own, 575 00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:34.559 like my own visceral reaction to this is that I 576 00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:37.720 went to see Thelma and Louise and came out just 577 00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:41.640 riding high and ready to just to like fucking destroy everything, 578 00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:45.200 you know, And like, you know, I just graduated college 579 00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:47.720 and I was like, now what am I going to do? 580 00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:48.039 Now? 581 00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:50.799 What am I gonna up to? It felt like maybe 582 00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:53.880 this would be this would be carrying on that energy, 583 00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:57.119 and it just was not able to do that right. 584 00:31:57.519 --> 00:31:59.480 It was going to be the sad drawn Bone film 585 00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:02.000 after you see something like them and Louise. 586 00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:06.359 I mean, at least they carried on with Kathleen Turner. 587 00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:10.000 She reads the I don't know if they're dramatizations or 588 00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:12.640 if she is just reading the books, but there was 589 00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:16.480 I want to say, a BBC audio series of her 590 00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:20.359 as VII Worshowski. So that's cool that that continued on 591 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:23.160 in that vein, because I think she really did connect 592 00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:26.119 with that character. And at least that way, if we 593 00:32:26.119 --> 00:32:28.480 don't have to look at her puffy face, Oh my god, 594 00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:30.400 it's like, come on, guys. 595 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:30.720 You know. 596 00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:33.519 Apparently Disney was all up in arms too, because she 597 00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:36.599 was what just getting on some medication for some rheumatoried 598 00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:41.079 arthritis that she had and like occasionally looked puffy. It's like, man, 599 00:32:41.079 --> 00:32:44.559 oh man, if I looked half as good, a tenth, 600 00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:47.119 a hundred as good as she looks in this movie, 601 00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:50.279 she looks amazing to me. And I've always just found 602 00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:55.359 her to be so charming and just so compelling as 603 00:32:55.400 --> 00:32:57.599 a person. I mean, especially you know, like when she 604 00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:02.599 is the FM fatal in body Heat. But no matter 605 00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:08.000 what she's doing, you know, Joan in those jewel denile 606 00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:12.440 and romancing the Stone movies. She's wonderful in that, and yeah, 607 00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:14.839 I just I really, which is funny because when I 608 00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:18.240 think about it, I'm like thinking of other female protagonists 609 00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:21.200 over the last few years, and I just popped onto that. 610 00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:26.240 What was that movie with Bryce Dallas Howard and Sam 611 00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:30.960 Rockwell where she was a mystery writer very much like 612 00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:34.960 Joan was in Romancing the Stone, and then she gets 613 00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.960 thrown into a real life adventure very much like Joan. 614 00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:39.920 It's like, I didn't realize that that movie was kind 615 00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:42.960 of a remake of Romancing the Stone until just right now. 616 00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:45.400 It was named after a cat and I can't remember 617 00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:49.880 what the cat's name was, our Gyle, our Gyle. But 618 00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:53.519 another movie that just you know, women can't open a movie, 619 00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:55.880 remember where we had that whole thing going for a while. Women, 620 00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:58.920 you just can't have a woman led film or woman 621 00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:03.039 directed film. You look at the examples quote unquote examples 622 00:34:03.079 --> 00:34:06.000 that were given and it's like, oh, look at what 623 00:34:06.039 --> 00:34:09.320 a mess Chloe's ou made of the Eternals. It's like, 624 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:12.199 I'm sorry, but the eternals were a fucking mess before 625 00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:14.159 anybody showed up to direct that thing. 626 00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:17.639 Think about how good the movie would have been. If 627 00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:19.960 they had just stayed more authentic to the book. 628 00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:22.760 And the book goes to a lot of interesting places. 629 00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:25.719 As somebody who lives around the Great Lakes, I was 630 00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:28.280 really intrigued. She goes all the way up to Thunder 631 00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:32.239 Bay in Lake Superior, and there's this whole thing of 632 00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:35.239 you know, what's on these boats and what's being shipped, 633 00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:38.840 And it taught me more about the shipping life than 634 00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:42.199 I ever would have known otherwise. And yeah, I found 635 00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:45.639 it really interesting. I thought that the Peretsky book was 636 00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:48.599 fantastic and it makes me want to read or listen 637 00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:51.360 to a lot more. I listened to the audiobook and 638 00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:54.960 the narrator of it did a fantastic job, and just yeah, 639 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:58.920 Pareski's pros was really compelling. And I was like, like 640 00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:01.360 you were saying, this could have been a franchise. We 641 00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:04.519 could have had like a whole series of these, but instead, 642 00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:07.159 I know there's other female detectives that are out there 643 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:10.280 where it's like, please, can somebody bring some of these 644 00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:13.159 ladies to the screen, like some of those what the 645 00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:15.880 Sue Grafton books, some of those things. It's like, yeah, 646 00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:19.480 come on, Laura Litman. Yeah, there's tons of great female 647 00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:24.000 detectives and nope, they just get passed by in favor 648 00:35:24.039 --> 00:35:24.760 of the male ones. 649 00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:28.400 I mean this movie, I show it in my class 650 00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:32.719 when I do my private detective class, and I use 651 00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:35.760 it as an example of like a failure, you know, 652 00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:38.719 and we talk about why it is a failure and why. 653 00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:43.320 It is it's like seemingly so impossible to have a 654 00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:46.639 movie with the female private eye where it works, you know, 655 00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:49.039 and that there are all these examples where it doesn't, 656 00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:52.400 and it doesn't work because these things keep getting in 657 00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:55.599 the way, they keep kind of poking holes in its possibilities. 658 00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:57.760 Like I don't know if you ever saw the TV 659 00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:02.280 show The Catch, but it's all also sort of similarly 660 00:36:02.679 --> 00:36:06.320 positioned as it's just a big mess because it's trying 661 00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:09.559 to do these female private eyes. And for instance, going 662 00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:11.760 back to what you were saying about the shoes and 663 00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:14.360 the sausage factory, where you were saying, like, you know, 664 00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:17.440 why is she wearing those shoes? In the Catch, the 665 00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:20.880 female private eyes are wearing like these stilettos, and it's like, 666 00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.480 really a private eye is gonna wear stilettos, you know, 667 00:36:23.559 --> 00:36:27.880 as they're like supposedly tailing someone or like, you know, 668 00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:31.599 running behind some bushes or whatever. But it's Yeah, for 669 00:36:31.639 --> 00:36:34.840 some reason, Hollywood cannot figure out how to do an 670 00:36:34.840 --> 00:36:36.440 effective female private eye. 671 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:39.599 Yeah, you get her showing up at the crime scene 672 00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:43.800 wearing that incredible dress because of the little girl took 673 00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:46.280 the dress, and then she's wearing a robe, so she 674 00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:48.159 ends up putting the dress on in the back of 675 00:36:48.199 --> 00:36:50.840 the taxi and then you've got the taxi driver leering 676 00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:53.360 at her and she shows I don't know why she 677 00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:57.119 still has the robot over the dress, but yeah, dressed 678 00:36:57.159 --> 00:36:59.559 to the nines at this crime scene. That's where we're 679 00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:02.280 introduced to Charles Derney. It's funny we're going to be 680 00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:04.199 talking about him again in two weeks when we talk 681 00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:07.760 about the film Cop. But he you know, I'm sure 682 00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:09.880 one thing that you talk about in your private diet 683 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:13.960 class is the whole relationship between detectives and police. What's 684 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:19.840 that relationship like? And sometimes it's uneasy, sometimes it's very friendly. 685 00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:23.079 This one, I mean, Dirning is basically her surguate father, 686 00:37:23.559 --> 00:37:26.679 which I don't tend to get with most detectives. It 687 00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:30.199 feels more like a friendship or a rivalry, but not 688 00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:32.000 a father daughter relationship. 689 00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:36.719 No, it's generally antagonistic, you know, and the cops are 690 00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:44.360 usually portrayed as you know, incompetent, dumb, slow whatever. They 691 00:37:44.440 --> 00:37:47.199 get in the way of the private detective, who's really 692 00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:48.559 better at solving the case. 693 00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:53.239 He's more concerned just about her welfare, which is nice, 694 00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:56.199 but at the same time, it doesn't fit with the mold, 695 00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.360 and I would kind of like it to be more 696 00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:00.920 of the mold and be more antiquistic. And I want 697 00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:03.559 to say again, sorry to sound like a broken record, 698 00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:05.400 but going back to the book, I believe it is 699 00:38:05.559 --> 00:38:08.760 very antagonistic, and it's like, yeah, I mean so many 700 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:13.800 times Private Eye and movies are former police officers that 701 00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:16.719 wanted to branch out on their own, that couldn't play 702 00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:20.360 by the rules, or you know, just somebody up and 703 00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:24.960 coming that cannot get along with the police and who, yeah, 704 00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:26.599 either there in the way or like you said, the 705 00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:28.840 police are in the way. And the police are always 706 00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:30.599 the ones that come in and they want to make 707 00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:34.519 snap decisions and say this is how it happened. And 708 00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:37.239 the detective is always the one that wants to dig deeper, 709 00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:40.039 wants to find out what's really going on, and isn't 710 00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:42.800 happy with pat answers. A lot of times, the detective 711 00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:44.760 will blow up their own case if they find out 712 00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:45.559 that they've been wrong. 713 00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:49.119 What's to stop somebody from making a good version of this? 714 00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:52.199 Right, hypothetically, it should be possible. 715 00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:56.159 I'm honestly surprised nobody's done it for television because I 716 00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:58.920 could see this being a long form TV thing, just 717 00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:03.519 like a you know, Reacher Reacher, the first Reacher movie 718 00:39:03.719 --> 00:39:06.760 I liked a lot, even though it was completely miscast 719 00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:09.599 with Tom Cruise. They should have called it something else 720 00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:12.840 other than Jack Reacher. The guy who's playing him now 721 00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:17.199 on TV on Prime, he's built for the part, and 722 00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:21.719 he's fantastic, And I love watching that show, and I 723 00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:25.800 love they're using long form TV to tell us a 724 00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:30.800 very intricate detective story and even making nods back to 725 00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:34.639 the former quote unquote books, the former seasons. I really 726 00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:37.800 like that, And I could really see a v I 727 00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:42.480 Worshowski having her whole series of adventures. Why not, you know, 728 00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:46.000 cast somebody really strong in that role, somebody that's very compelling, 729 00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:49.920 like Kathleen Turner. Let's see it today. 730 00:39:50.119 --> 00:39:51.800 Yeah, you'd think it would be so easy. 731 00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:54.400 It's not like good mysteries go out of style. 732 00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:59.280 No, there's something about having the female detective, like it's 733 00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:03.039 it's okay when she's very young and she's very old, right, 734 00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:06.280 so we could have like the Angela Lansbury murder, she wrote, 735 00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:10.719 that's totally fine. We can have the Veronica Mars Nancy Drew, 736 00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:14.559 That's totally fine. But when she's middle aged, it's like 737 00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:15.639 it doesn't work. 738 00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:20.119 It's right, can be doing detective work during your prime 739 00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:23.199 maternal years, exactly, your child very years. 740 00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:25.000 No, you're right. As soon as you said that, I 741 00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:27.000 was like, oh, miss Marple, okay, yeah. 742 00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:30.559 Yeah, the cozy mysteries with the old ladies, like, that's 743 00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:31.400 totally fine. 744 00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:37.360 Yeah, are you ovulating? You obviously cannot solve the mystery. 745 00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:41.840 It's like confounding because you think, you know, we clearly 746 00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:45.199 love mysteries. They crank out so many a year, But 747 00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:48.320 yet the closest I've been able to get is like 748 00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:52.079 Jessica Jones, which isn't totally accurate. 749 00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:56.280 I mean, even when you look at Maddie on Moonlighting, 750 00:40:56.840 --> 00:41:00.000 I mean she just takes such a backseat to David Addison, 751 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:03.400 and then he's always the one connecting those stories together. 752 00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:06.519 She takes a back seat She's very much like Missus 753 00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:09.920 King from Scarecrow Missus King or even Remington Steele. I 754 00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:15.639 mean Remington Steele a fictional character created by the woman 755 00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:19.840 running this detective agency because no one will hire a 756 00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:22.800 woman detective, so she has to make up this character. 757 00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:26.280 And in walks Pierce Brosnan and he just assumes that 758 00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:30.440 role as a complete con artist basically, And that's the 759 00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:32.960 whole show, which is just a bizarre. 760 00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:35.599 Premise, Yeah, where she keeps doing all the work and 761 00:41:35.639 --> 00:41:39.360 he keeps getting all the credit because everybody assumes that 762 00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:41.480 you know, she's the secretary. 763 00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:44.159 And meanwhile she's the power behind the throne. 764 00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:47.119 No, Remington Steele is I think was really ahead of 765 00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:50.920 its time. It's a brilliant show. That one of the 766 00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:55.719 international titles for the movie was v I Warshawski Colon 767 00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:58.480 Detective and High Heels, which I think kind of says 768 00:41:58.519 --> 00:41:59.360 everything you need to know. 769 00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:03.440 Well, the ad campaign, what was it? What was the 770 00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:06.320 ad campaign for this? Because it also talked about high heels, 771 00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:09.719 long legs kind of thing. I mean you have the poster, 772 00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:13.719 the poster, yeah, with just her legs and playing off 773 00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:16.639 of the V and the W and the shape of 774 00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:19.960 her legs. Yeah, I mean that whole poster, the big 775 00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:22.440 w behind her and her legs formed the bottom part 776 00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:22.719 of it. 777 00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:27.320 Yeah, where in the evolution of the movie poster between 778 00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:31.280 a woman's legs is this? Because there's a long history 779 00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:34.960 of it, but I'm not entirely sure when that really 780 00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:37.679 began in earnest and this is certainly one of the 781 00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:40.760 more iconic examples of that trope. 782 00:42:41.079 --> 00:42:43.360 I think it's interesting also to talk about her name 783 00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:47.880 and the fact that she deliberately tries to downplay her 784 00:42:47.960 --> 00:42:52.000 gender by going by v I, and that when she's 785 00:42:52.039 --> 00:42:54.960 called Vicki, for instance, it's usually done in this very 786 00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:58.320 patronizing sort of way, you know, which again speaks to 787 00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:00.880 it's kind of like with the Remington steal, where she's 788 00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:03.400 aware of the fact that she can't be too feminine, 789 00:43:03.480 --> 00:43:05.719 or at least, you know, her name can't be too feminine, 790 00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:07.800 because they will deter potential clients. 791 00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:10.719 Well, yeah, she has that whole thing that she even 792 00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:13.920 tells the little Girl about. You know, That's why I 793 00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:16.840 use my initials, is that people can't condescend to you 794 00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:18.880 if they don't know your first name, or it's harder 795 00:43:18.920 --> 00:43:21.840 to you know, they have to call her mis Worshovski, 796 00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:25.639 and you've got the whole thing of the little girl 797 00:43:26.119 --> 00:43:29.360 being there basically. So that and I know there was 798 00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:31.760 talk at one point of there being a voiceover for 799 00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:36.280 this because the books are narrated by Vi Worshovski. The 800 00:43:36.559 --> 00:43:39.440 movie they were talking about having it narrated, and then 801 00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:42.679 Disney changed their mind and said no, no, no narration, 802 00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:45.679 And then they said, oh, you know what, let's have narration. 803 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:47.760 And by that time, Kathleen Turner's like, you know what, 804 00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:50.559 fuck you, because she was really the force behind this, 805 00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:53.719 Like she's the one who put together this package. You know, 806 00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:58.039 It's like she interviewed Canoe. I'm sure that she had 807 00:43:58.039 --> 00:44:01.719 a hand in picking the writers. She was very into this, 808 00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:05.599 and I really wanted her to succeed, you know, like, 809 00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:09.599 especially at this point in her career. I think her 810 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:12.800 having a series would have just really put a fine 811 00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:15.159 point on just what a great actress she is. And 812 00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:17.840 it says she keeps ending up in shitty other stuff. 813 00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:21.000 You know, It's like after this movie, I don't know. 814 00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:23.480 I mean, of course I love Dumb and Dumber two, 815 00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:25.360 but I'm trying to think of other stuff that she 816 00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:27.519 did after this, where she's like, oh, yeah, yeah, that 817 00:44:27.559 --> 00:44:29.239 was a great thing. Well, I guess serial one, serial 818 00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:33.119 Mom came curial mom, does it? Yes, So yeah, I think. 819 00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:34.880 There were a couple of things, but yeah, but by 820 00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:37.960 and large you're right. But I think, you know, dealing 821 00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:41.159 with her health issues and the ways that that would 822 00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:44.840 be translating to a camera or a certain burden that 823 00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:45.800 she was having to bear. 824 00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:50.159 I think the voiceover thing is really symbolic of the 825 00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:53.679 problems with the movie, where you know, if they had 826 00:44:53.719 --> 00:44:56.440 stayed true to the book, she would have had a voiceover, 827 00:44:56.960 --> 00:44:59.920 but for whatever was in Disney didn't want to allow 828 00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:04.440 to have a voiceover. And the voiceover is what gives 829 00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:08.079 the character agency because the voiceover is the person who's 830 00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:13.039 guiding you through the movie. And so you know, Veronica Mars, 831 00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:16.440 for instance, has a voiceover. I mean many Private Eye 832 00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:20.000 and Noir films have voiceovers. It's part of the whole 833 00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:23.480 genre style. And so the fact that they said that 834 00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:26.599 she couldn't have a voiceover is really like taking away 835 00:45:26.599 --> 00:45:30.800 her voice. It's really emasculating her. And then obviously they 836 00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:33.000 realized that they had messed up, but it was too late. 837 00:45:33.239 --> 00:45:36.519 But I was I thought it was really interesting that 838 00:45:36.679 --> 00:45:39.320 they had they because they didn't. They didn't explain why 839 00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:41.360 they didn't give her a voiceover, but they just they 840 00:45:41.400 --> 00:45:43.840 didn't want to give her a voiceover. And I feel 841 00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:47.199 like that movie is supposed to have a voiceover, because 842 00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:49.559 those kinds of movies are supposed to have a voiceover. 843 00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:53.039 I don't think the voiceover would have played well though, 844 00:45:53.119 --> 00:45:56.599 with all of the advice she's giving to the little girl, 845 00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:01.559 because that's basically her voiceover, that's her inner monologue, like 846 00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:05.039 telling her like, oh, you know rule number one of detecting, 847 00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:07.599 do this, rule number two. Do this. It's like that 848 00:46:07.639 --> 00:46:10.519 would have worked so much better as a voiceover, And 849 00:46:11.199 --> 00:46:15.000 had we not had that kid there, I just really 850 00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:17.960 had problems with having this little girl there and just 851 00:46:18.039 --> 00:46:20.719 kind of glombing onto stuff and being that you know, 852 00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:24.320 little miss Marker type character where you're just like, okay, yeah, 853 00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:27.239 here she goes. She's gonna start crying. And I don't 854 00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:29.360 blame the actress and stuff, but there are a few times. 855 00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:33.159 There's one major scene where she like kind of breaks down, 856 00:46:33.679 --> 00:46:36.360 father's dead, all this kind of stuff, and I just 857 00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:38.840 feel like, oh, this is the Oscar moment, you know, 858 00:46:38.920 --> 00:46:41.079 this is what they're going to play at the Academy 859 00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:44.480 Awards when they're just like and nominated for vi I Warshawski, 860 00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:48.320 this actress, and then you know, like they play this 861 00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:51.440 clip and she's just tearing up and stuff. It was 862 00:46:51.519 --> 00:46:54.760 just a little much for me at times. And again 863 00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:57.519 that could just be you know, nineteen ninety one, I 864 00:46:57.599 --> 00:46:59.280 might have been fine with it, but in twenty twenty 865 00:46:59.320 --> 00:47:01.639 five and I'm just like, okay, can we end up 866 00:47:01.639 --> 00:47:03.480 seeing pretty soon? This is getting to be a little 867 00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:04.280 long in the tooth. 868 00:47:05.320 --> 00:47:07.599 Well, that's what's so funny about when you were asking 869 00:47:07.639 --> 00:47:11.280 me at the beginning of our conversation about whether I 870 00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:12.960 liked the movie when it came out, and I did 871 00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:15.159 like the movie because I didn't really know any better, 872 00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:18.079 And now watching it with you know, sort of our 873 00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:22.480 twenty twenty five perspective, it's just like you want to 874 00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:24.599 put your head in your hand and go, oh my god. 875 00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:27.599 You know, just like one thing after the next is 876 00:47:27.639 --> 00:47:31.360 just so demeaning. You kind of wonder why if this 877 00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:35.199 was Kathleen Turner's project, she went along with it all 878 00:47:35.239 --> 00:47:37.559 and didn't have more of a role in sort of, 879 00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:39.800 I don't know, making the script better. 880 00:47:40.599 --> 00:47:41.719 Yeah, it's a mystery. 881 00:47:41.960 --> 00:47:44.360 It is a mystery that's the bigger mystery than the 882 00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:47.079 mystery in the movie. All right, we're going to take 883 00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:49.679 a break and we'll be back with a whole slew 884 00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:51.679 of interviews. First up, you're going to hear from the 885 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:56.440 creator of Via Warshowsky, yourself, Sarah Peritzky. After that, we'll 886 00:47:56.440 --> 00:48:00.440 hear from screenwriters David Aaron Cohen and Nick feel After 887 00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:03.880 that we'll hear from director Jeff Canoe, and last but 888 00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:07.440 not least, we'll hear from the final writer on Via Worshowski, 889 00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:10.480 Warren Light. And we'll be back with all of that 890 00:48:11.119 --> 00:48:12.719 right after these brief messages. 891 00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:15.519 Welcome to highst Club. 892 00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:18.039 Where we lay out the blueprints for some of the strangest, boldest, 893 00:48:18.079 --> 00:48:20.119 and most unbelievable robberies of all time. 894 00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:24.440 For mysteries unsolved to flawle plans to split second mistakes. 895 00:48:24.199 --> 00:48:26.480 Like the nineteen million dollar Last Job pulled off by 896 00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:29.599 London's very own version of the Expendables. 897 00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:31.039 Or the robbery that made the Mono Leasa the most 898 00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:33.920 famous painting in the world, like the Thomas crime Affair 899 00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:35.880 said in nineteen eleven Paris. 900 00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:39.960 But also less sophisticated and no Pierce Broston. 901 00:48:40.199 --> 00:48:43.880 Sorry Todd. We cover bank jobs, art lifts, diamond scores, 902 00:48:44.199 --> 00:48:46.199 all the stuff Danny Ocean's crew be jealous of. 903 00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:48.639 I'm Todd and I'm Jesse. 904 00:48:49.039 --> 00:48:52.039 Welcome to hight Club, Real Life Keepers, the Inspired Movies, 905 00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:53.800 Mysteries and Time in Prison. 906 00:48:54.199 --> 00:48:58.719 Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. 907 00:48:58.360 --> 00:49:01.440 And follow us at hight Club on all your social 908 00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:03.079 media apps, including letterboxed. 909 00:49:03.440 --> 00:49:05.480 Tell us about your favorite heists, what you would have 910 00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:09.039 done hypothetically, of course, listen in and join the club. 911 00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:13.199 Looking for something superior to streaming a place with more 912 00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:17.880 than five times a selection available on all streaming services combined. 913 00:49:18.360 --> 00:49:22.000 Check out Scarecrow Videos rent by mail service. Select from 914 00:49:22.039 --> 00:49:25.679 an unparalleled collection of over one hundred and fifty thousand 915 00:49:25.719 --> 00:49:29.159 films and get Blu rays, four k's and DVDs delivered 916 00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:32.000 directly to your door. Get in on it now at 917 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:35.679 scarecrow dot com and rediscover the wonders of physical media. 918 00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:40.199 All right, welcome to the interview portion of the show. 919 00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:42.280 First up, we're going to hear from the creator of 920 00:49:42.360 --> 00:49:45.920 vi I Warshawski, Sarah Peretsky. Can you tell me a 921 00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:48.559 little bit about you growing up and becoming a writer. 922 00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:51.440 How did you decide to endeavor in that pursuit. 923 00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:56.159 I grew up writing. I never imagine myself as a writer, 924 00:49:56.320 --> 00:49:59.480 writing things that other people wanted to read, but every 925 00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:02.440 one I I have four brothers, one older, three younger, 926 00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:04.280 and we all grew up. 927 00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:05.440 My mother was a. 928 00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:08.760 Great reader, great storyteller. My mother was a way better 929 00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:12.800 storyteller than I am. She used to tell this serial, 930 00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:19.079 this long serial about a sheriff in Colorado who he 931 00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:23.599 had two children, Sarah and Dan, me and my next brother, 932 00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:28.440 who were always disappearing, finding themselves lost in silver mines 933 00:50:28.519 --> 00:50:32.280 or something. And each week as she was ironing, she'd 934 00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:34.519 have a new episode on this thriller that she'd just 935 00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:37.039 make up on her feet. I've never been that clever. 936 00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:42.800 She was a fantastic storyteller, and then became a children's 937 00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:46.840 librarian and she was just adored by every child in Lawrence, Kansas. 938 00:50:48.159 --> 00:50:53.800 So that's where I learned just the sheer joy of stories. 939 00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:57.840 But I never imagined myself as a published writer. That 940 00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:00.480 sort of just evolved with time. 941 00:51:02.199 --> 00:51:05.119 What were some of your earlier stories and books like? 942 00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:07.800 I know you definitely wrote some nonfiction when you were 943 00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:08.840 going to college. 944 00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:12.960 When I was wo how old it wasn't in nineteen seventy, 945 00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:16.360 I was twenty two, twenty three. I thought I could 946 00:51:16.360 --> 00:51:19.800 get a job in the writing world in New York. 947 00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:22.599 I thought some magazine would love to hire me. And 948 00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:26.239 my portfolio were all my history papers, because I was 949 00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:29.960 doing a PhD in American history. I don't know, I 950 00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:33.000 don't know if it was ignorant or arrogance, but of 951 00:51:33.079 --> 00:51:35.440 course no one wanted to talk to me. I didn't 952 00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:38.280 have a sponsor. I knew not one person in the 953 00:51:38.360 --> 00:51:41.679 New York writing world. And I finally ended up getting 954 00:51:41.719 --> 00:51:46.039 a job as a secretary, and then I came back 955 00:51:46.039 --> 00:51:49.519 to Chicago because it was just easier to live in 956 00:51:49.599 --> 00:51:53.840 Chicago than in New York. But as a person just 957 00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:59.719 writing for myself, writing stories, really fairy tales when I 958 00:51:59.880 --> 00:52:03.519 was young, and then in my teens when I really 959 00:52:03.559 --> 00:52:09.199 got engaged by crime novels, crime fiction. Then I started 960 00:52:09.199 --> 00:52:13.440 writing my own crime short stories. And then in my 961 00:52:13.599 --> 00:52:17.320 twenties Bad Love Affair. I would write a story just 962 00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:23.239 absolutely evisceraating the disgusting human being who had abandoned me, 963 00:52:23.960 --> 00:52:28.360 so revenge story. But all the time I was reading 964 00:52:28.519 --> 00:52:33.239 crime fiction, and especially when I started reading American noir 965 00:52:33.400 --> 00:52:38.840 fiction Raymond Chandler, dash Ol Hammett, the great Golden Age 966 00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:43.280 of noir fiction in America, and saw the way that 967 00:52:43.360 --> 00:52:48.239 women were depicted, and a woman was almost always going 968 00:52:48.280 --> 00:52:52.199 to be the main bad person in a Chandler novel, 969 00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:56.119 and she was going to use her body like bridget 970 00:52:56.119 --> 00:52:59.159 O'Shaughnessy and Hammett's Maltese Fall Country, was going to use 971 00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:01.760 her body to get good boys to do bad things, 972 00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:04.920 and she was going to get her come up, because 973 00:53:05.800 --> 00:53:09.840 no bad woman could be as strong as a stalwart hero. 974 00:53:11.079 --> 00:53:14.280 And I wanted to create a woman who turned the 975 00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:18.639 tables on that kind of image of women. I was 976 00:53:18.719 --> 00:53:23.360 working by then in financial services, industry, insurance and so on, 977 00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:24.880 and I. 978 00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:25.719 Wanted a woman. 979 00:53:25.480 --> 00:53:29.360 Who reflected the experience of my women friends, my co 980 00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:33.960 workers and mine. Where we were doing a job, We 981 00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:37.519 were getting the job done, We were getting paid less 982 00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:40.440 sixty percent of what the men around us were getting paid. 983 00:53:41.320 --> 00:53:43.239 Believe me, we did not use our bodies to. 984 00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:46.039 Do anything except go home, take off our high heels 985 00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:49.280 at the end of the day in soaked and epsom salts. 986 00:53:49.719 --> 00:53:54.079 So I wanted a woman detective who reflected the real 987 00:53:54.119 --> 00:53:57.480 experience that I and my friends were having. And it 988 00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:00.519 took me years for VII to come to me. I 989 00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:03.960 kept trying to write what I see now was just 990 00:54:04.039 --> 00:54:08.199 a parody of Chandler with I had a detective name 991 00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:11.719 Minerva Daniels who was so hard boiled she makes v 992 00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:14.840 I look like a puppy. I know I've said this 993 00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:18.599 a number of times in other places, but this really happened. 994 00:54:18.639 --> 00:54:21.159 I worked for a guy who was just a total 995 00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:26.920 horrible person. His only good quality was that he was 996 00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:29.360 as horrible to the men who worked for him as 997 00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:32.039 he was to the women. It was just an all 998 00:54:32.119 --> 00:54:36.800 round jerk. It was Chicago, it was October. The trees 999 00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:41.559 in Grant Park had lost their leaves. And for anyone 1000 00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:44.480 who's watching this, who's been in Chicago at all, there's 1001 00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:48.360 a red building across the street from the Art Institute, 1002 00:54:48.800 --> 00:54:51.480 the CNA Insurance building. We were up on the thirty 1003 00:54:51.519 --> 00:54:54.719 sixth floor looking down at Grant Park. Everything was dead. 1004 00:54:55.320 --> 00:54:59.159 My lips were saying, gosh, Fred, heck of an idea, 1005 00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:04.920 and the over my head was saying you unspeakable, unprintable, unthinkable, 1006 00:55:05.440 --> 00:55:10.000 turkey bird, And really literally my detective came to me 1007 00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:13.280 in that moment. So seven or eight years of writing 1008 00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:15.719 a few pages here and there, I thought, oh God, no, 1009 00:55:15.840 --> 00:55:19.400 she's me and my friends. Only she says what's in 1010 00:55:19.400 --> 00:55:22.159 the thought balloon because she doesn't care if someone fires her. 1011 00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:25.760 Yeah. I was curious how much of v I was 1012 00:55:25.760 --> 00:55:28.079 in you and you were in her, But sounds like 1013 00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:28.800 pretty close. 1014 00:55:29.719 --> 00:55:33.159 I think the thoughts and she talks the thoughts. I 1015 00:55:33.199 --> 00:55:37.440 think as time has passed, I've become less inhibited in 1016 00:55:37.519 --> 00:55:40.519 what I might say in public. But v I she's 1017 00:55:40.599 --> 00:55:48.199 my version of just being fearless and willing to live 1018 00:55:48.239 --> 00:55:53.440 with the consequences of being outspoken. And whereas I sometimes 1019 00:55:53.519 --> 00:55:56.079 will retreat and think, oh I don't have to say 1020 00:55:56.119 --> 00:55:58.239 that in public, I can have v I say it 1021 00:55:58.360 --> 00:55:58.719 for me. 1022 00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:03.159 So what was that first novel? What was that first 1023 00:56:03.199 --> 00:56:06.679 experience like? Just finding her and being able to have 1024 00:56:06.760 --> 00:56:08.199 her explore that world for you. 1025 00:56:10.559 --> 00:56:13.880 It was wonderful in some ways, and yet it also 1026 00:56:14.039 --> 00:56:17.599 set the pattern for how I write, which is with 1027 00:56:17.719 --> 00:56:22.400 a lot of self doubt, backtracking. I wrote about seventy 1028 00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:25.400 pages and thought, I don't know what I'm doing and 1029 00:56:25.800 --> 00:56:30.760 I can't make this happen. And then a coworker showed 1030 00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:34.239 me that Stuart Kaminsky of Blessed Memory. He was a 1031 00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:38.880 crime writer, but he also taught at Northwestern University, Radio, 1032 00:56:38.920 --> 00:56:43.639 TV Film. He was teaching a class writing detective fiction 1033 00:56:43.760 --> 00:56:48.920 for publication in the Northwestern Night School. So every I 1034 00:56:48.960 --> 00:56:51.559 can't remember Tuesday night, I think it doesn't matter what 1035 00:56:51.679 --> 00:56:54.440 day of the week. I drove the twenty miles up 1036 00:56:54.480 --> 00:56:59.719 to the Northwestern campus and Stu was just immensely supportive, 1037 00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:04.039 really liked the idea of the character. I was copying 1038 00:57:04.079 --> 00:57:08.400 all these tropes from the thirties and forties because because 1039 00:57:08.440 --> 00:57:11.039 I really didn't have confidence that I could forge my 1040 00:57:11.119 --> 00:57:14.480 own path, and he explained how outdated they were, that 1041 00:57:14.599 --> 00:57:19.000 it would date my work, and so he just gave 1042 00:57:19.079 --> 00:57:25.760 me the encouragement I needed to make VII bolder, more contemporary, 1043 00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:29.960 and bring her to the finish line. Also, the most 1044 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:34.239 generous additional thing he did was to send my manuscript 1045 00:57:34.320 --> 00:57:38.119 to his agent, Dominic Abel, who's been my agent ever since, 1046 00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:42.719 and Dominic Dominic liked the book, but he said she 1047 00:57:42.840 --> 00:57:46.119 needs flaws. I'd made her too perfect. So I gave 1048 00:57:46.159 --> 00:57:51.159 her my flaws, which is a short temper, short fused temper, 1049 00:57:51.440 --> 00:57:56.039 and a lack of interest in housekeeping. The first book, 1050 00:57:56.079 --> 00:58:00.199 Indemnity Only, she was not as fully formed as she 1051 00:58:00.280 --> 00:58:07.119 became with time. So other flaws have emerged as time 1052 00:58:07.199 --> 00:58:11.519 has passed. But man, I was so lucky to be 1053 00:58:11.559 --> 00:58:14.679 writing when I was, back when there were a lot 1054 00:58:14.679 --> 00:58:19.079 of publishers, because I got forty rejection letters before dial 1055 00:58:19.159 --> 00:58:23.960 Press agreed to buy the book. And my favorite rejection letter, 1056 00:58:24.039 --> 00:58:27.400 I think it was from Simon and Schuster. But all 1057 00:58:27.400 --> 00:58:29.760 my papers are now at the Newberry Library. I'd have 1058 00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:32.119 to go into their archive and look through and say, 1059 00:58:32.199 --> 00:58:34.400 who was it who wrote this? And they said, of 1060 00:58:34.920 --> 00:58:39.440 a book set in Chicago had regional interest only, and 1061 00:58:39.480 --> 00:58:42.119 not enough people read in the Upper Midwest to make 1062 00:58:42.159 --> 00:58:44.559 it worth our while to publish a book set there. 1063 00:58:46.480 --> 00:58:49.360 Wow, just insult for all of us. 1064 00:58:49.480 --> 00:58:50.519 That's right, I know. 1065 00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:55.920 Did you know pretty much right off that you were 1066 00:58:55.920 --> 00:58:58.599 going to stick with her as your character and build 1067 00:58:58.679 --> 00:58:59.960 more of this world around her? 1068 00:59:00.480 --> 00:59:04.440 No, I thought one and done. I wanted to show 1069 00:59:04.480 --> 00:59:08.159 that what a woman could do as an independent investigator, 1070 00:59:08.199 --> 00:59:11.199 that what a woman who was on her own could do, 1071 00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:14.320 that she didn't need to be rescued. And I look 1072 00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:16.840 at how I lose my life, and I think I 1073 00:59:16.880 --> 00:59:20.679 am stupid, I am naive, and I must also be 1074 00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:25.079 arrogant because I thought the only reason that people are 1075 00:59:25.119 --> 00:59:27.199 writing about women the way they are is because they 1076 00:59:27.239 --> 00:59:29.920 just haven't thought it through. Now they'll see v I 1077 00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:32.800 and they'll think, Oh, we didn't get it. Now we do, 1078 00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:33.920 and that will change. 1079 00:59:34.159 --> 00:59:40.760 I'm like, ah, Sarah, you are such an idiot. I 1080 00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:44.440 had other ideas, other stories I wanted to tell, which 1081 00:59:44.800 --> 00:59:48.440 mercifully Dominic persuaded me not to. When I look back 1082 00:59:48.480 --> 00:59:51.119 at the proposals I sent them, I was like, oh, no, 1083 00:59:51.760 --> 00:59:55.559 talking about things that are just as well never. 1084 00:59:55.400 --> 00:59:58.000 Saw the light of the day. But he also said 1085 00:59:58.039 --> 01:00:00.000 that he thought I should write at least three books 1086 01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:05.159 about her to establish her. And then three became suddenly 1087 01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:05.760 twenty two. 1088 01:00:06.880 --> 01:00:09.840 I know, like when John D. MacDonald wrote his Travis 1089 01:00:09.920 --> 01:00:13.199 McKee books, he wrote three just to get the feel 1090 01:00:13.239 --> 01:00:14.719 for him. So I was curious, if you did the 1091 01:00:14.760 --> 01:00:18.039 same with VI. It sounds somewhat similar. 1092 01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:24.320 It was, And then she developed a following. At the 1093 01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:29.280 same time as I was seeing her in a fuller way. 1094 01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:34.599 I was a marketing manager for CNA Insurance in Chicago, 1095 01:00:34.920 --> 01:00:38.559 and I was on the road a lot. It was 1096 01:00:38.679 --> 01:00:41.239 the early days of automation when we were trying to 1097 01:00:41.280 --> 01:00:44.280 persuade our See God, I was such a corporate player. 1098 01:00:44.280 --> 01:00:46.800 I still say we and I've been away from that 1099 01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:53.519 company for almost fifty years, but almost forty years anyway, 1100 01:00:54.440 --> 01:00:57.800 we were trying to persuade our agency force to automate. 1101 01:00:58.039 --> 01:01:00.719 And I don't know if you're old to remember the 1102 01:01:00.760 --> 01:01:06.000 IBM desktop computers, but we were offering those as special deals. 1103 01:01:06.039 --> 01:01:09.239 And then I started having more responsibility. I was on 1104 01:01:09.280 --> 01:01:12.719 the road two weeks a month. A year went by 1105 01:01:12.760 --> 01:01:16.519 where I didn't have time or energy to write. After 1106 01:01:16.599 --> 01:01:19.800 three books, I thought, Okay, it's now or never, and 1107 01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:24.519 I quit my day job. And I was just lucky 1108 01:01:24.559 --> 01:01:28.000 in how my career evolved that and lucky that I 1109 01:01:28.119 --> 01:01:33.320 was married to a really wonderful person who wanted me 1110 01:01:33.400 --> 01:01:38.960 to thrive and flourish in my creative work. The fact 1111 01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:41.400 that the money was less did not bother him for 1112 01:01:41.519 --> 01:01:46.440 one second, which was also a wonderful gift, one of 1113 01:01:46.639 --> 01:01:49.599 many that I had from him over the forty seven 1114 01:01:49.679 --> 01:01:50.679 years we were together. 1115 01:01:51.559 --> 01:01:55.400 I'm reading Deadlock right now. How much research did you 1116 01:01:55.440 --> 01:01:58.000 have to do on shipping just to write that book? 1117 01:01:58.280 --> 01:01:58.440 Oh? 1118 01:01:58.639 --> 01:02:04.440 Tons and Courtney, my husband. He had been in the 1119 01:02:04.519 --> 01:02:08.440 Royal Navy during the Second World War, but he was 1120 01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:11.079 a professor of physics at the University of Chicago. But 1121 01:02:11.119 --> 01:02:15.280 he always loved ships and shipping, and so we would 1122 01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:19.320 take many years. We took our vacation driving up through 1123 01:02:19.400 --> 01:02:24.280 Macina past the sew Locks and then around like Superior 1124 01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:27.519 and back home. So we're standing at the sew locks 1125 01:02:27.559 --> 01:02:30.239 and Courtney said, I wonder what would happen if you 1126 01:02:30.440 --> 01:02:33.199 blew up a ship in one of those locks. So 1127 01:02:33.480 --> 01:02:36.199 I went. When we got home, I started doing the 1128 01:02:36.239 --> 01:02:40.119 research into Great Lakes shipping and created a story that 1129 01:02:40.159 --> 01:02:44.199 would involve blowing up a ship in the locks. And 1130 01:02:44.239 --> 01:02:48.119 then it was clear that it would be really good 1131 01:02:48.199 --> 01:02:53.039 if I actually had some experience with one of those freighters. 1132 01:02:53.159 --> 01:02:56.880 So I started calling the companies in Chicago that I 1133 01:02:56.960 --> 01:02:59.440 knew shipped on the Lakes, and they all just paid 1134 01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:03.760 basically hung up on me. But we were at the 1135 01:03:03.840 --> 01:03:08.280 Sioux on vacation, and I started writing down the names 1136 01:03:08.639 --> 01:03:12.000 of the shipping companies which are on the hull of 1137 01:03:12.039 --> 01:03:15.199 the ship, and Canada Este the ship, which I learned 1138 01:03:15.400 --> 01:03:18.960 later was the biggest shipper on the Great Lakes. I 1139 01:03:19.079 --> 01:03:23.000 called them their head office in Montreal, and the guy 1140 01:03:23.079 --> 01:03:27.800 I was transferred to this is nineteen eighty two eighty three. 1141 01:03:27.880 --> 01:03:31.599 I had a pay phone outside the Sioux Locks a 1142 01:03:31.679 --> 01:03:35.519 guy who answered the phone Friday afternoon. He said, do 1143 01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:37.239 you want to sail for a day, a week, a 1144 01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:40.760 month or a year? And I had a week of 1145 01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:45.960 vacation left at the insurance company, and I said a week. 1146 01:03:46.239 --> 01:03:48.960 And he said call me back tomorrow morning, Saturday morning. 1147 01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:54.360 And I called back and he said, be at Peer 1148 01:03:54.480 --> 01:03:58.119 whatever number it was, in thunder Bay, which is the 1149 01:03:58.159 --> 01:04:02.599 westernmost port on Lake Superior, at eight o'clock Monday morning, 1150 01:04:02.920 --> 01:04:05.840 and the master of the J. W. McGiffin will be 1151 01:04:05.960 --> 01:04:09.320 ready to let you board and sail with them. So 1152 01:04:09.440 --> 01:04:13.119 we drove Courtney with our golden retriever at the time, 1153 01:04:13.599 --> 01:04:18.559 drove like maniacs the six hundred miles around to thunder Bay. 1154 01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:22.360 Then he said goodbye to me and drove back to 1155 01:04:22.400 --> 01:04:27.159 pick me up at Nira Falls. And I had no 1156 01:04:27.199 --> 01:04:31.599 idea what to expect, but I was expecting because we 1157 01:04:31.800 --> 01:04:36.079 toured these ships at the museum in sus Saint Marie. 1158 01:04:36.559 --> 01:04:39.519 He was expecting a hammock in a dark cubbyhold. 1159 01:04:39.639 --> 01:04:39.719 No. 1160 01:04:40.119 --> 01:04:42.599 I had a suite of three rooms. I was in 1161 01:04:42.679 --> 01:04:45.800 the stateroom. I was an honored guest who ate at 1162 01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:49.679 the captain's table. And this was September. 1163 01:04:49.760 --> 01:04:50.440 They sailed. 1164 01:04:50.480 --> 01:04:53.239 I don't know what it's like now, but they sailed 1165 01:04:53.239 --> 01:04:56.119 basically from when the ice breaks up in April until 1166 01:04:56.119 --> 01:04:59.400 the ice freezes. So they sailed seven days a week, 1167 01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:04.199 and all their leave is in that chunk of months. 1168 01:05:04.360 --> 01:05:08.079 And it got when the locks are frozen solid. They 1169 01:05:08.119 --> 01:05:10.440 were so sick of each other's company. I didn't have 1170 01:05:10.519 --> 01:05:13.960 to ask any questions. Everyone was eager to have some 1171 01:05:14.079 --> 01:05:16.880 new person to tell all their stories too. And I 1172 01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:19.800 got to go down into the hold and see the 1173 01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:24.880 giant boilers and pistons and everything. And then I'm thinking, 1174 01:05:25.159 --> 01:05:29.159 the last person to be in that stateroom was the 1175 01:05:29.199 --> 01:05:34.480 head of the Canada Green Board and basically high ranking 1176 01:05:34.559 --> 01:05:38.119 people and shipping and green and so on. And I'm thinking, 1177 01:05:38.480 --> 01:05:42.239 I have six hundred dollars in my bank account. Can 1178 01:05:42.280 --> 01:05:45.760 I check long enough to I have no idea what 1179 01:05:45.800 --> 01:05:49.440 this will cost. And finally, the last morning, when we 1180 01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:54.119 were getting before we were docking at the Wellham Canal, 1181 01:05:54.159 --> 01:05:56.639 which raises the ships up to the Saint Laurent seaway. 1182 01:05:57.639 --> 01:06:02.239 I said, nobody has said anything as awkward as money, 1183 01:06:02.280 --> 01:06:05.880 but I don't know what the charges for sailing with you. 1184 01:06:06.480 --> 01:06:09.320 And the master said, oh, we can't charge you. Then 1185 01:06:09.320 --> 01:06:12.159 we'd have to advertise as a passenger ship. 1186 01:06:12.199 --> 01:06:12.880 And I was like, WHOA. 1187 01:06:13.760 --> 01:06:16.960 But I think one of the most beautiful moments that 1188 01:06:17.039 --> 01:06:20.159 I was able to experience in my whole life was 1189 01:06:20.559 --> 01:06:25.639 at midnight in the middle of Lake Superior, on the 1190 01:06:25.760 --> 01:06:29.840 very front the bow of the ship. You don't hear 1191 01:06:29.880 --> 01:06:33.119 the engines seven one hundred and fifty feet behind you, 1192 01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:37.119 and you're just there and the water as iridescent in 1193 01:06:37.159 --> 01:06:43.119 the moonlight, and it's so peaceful and beautiful. It was magical, 1194 01:06:43.159 --> 01:06:47.280 and that memory, all these many years later stays with me. 1195 01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:50.760 I love the way that you described that in the book, 1196 01:06:50.800 --> 01:06:53.719 talking about the way that an ink blood a black 1197 01:06:53.719 --> 01:06:56.960 ink blot will separate into its colors, and just, yeah, 1198 01:06:57.000 --> 01:06:58.079 that sounded beautiful. 1199 01:06:58.639 --> 01:06:59.039 Thank you. 1200 01:06:59.400 --> 01:07:02.440 Once you left the insurance company and we're able to 1201 01:07:02.440 --> 01:07:04.880 write full time, what kind of routine did you come 1202 01:07:04.960 --> 01:07:06.960 up with and do you stick to that today? 1203 01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:11.280 I'm not as disciplined, I'm sad to say, as I was, 1204 01:07:11.320 --> 01:07:13.920 but I was so worried about not being able to 1205 01:07:13.920 --> 01:07:17.360 do it that the morning after my first morning away 1206 01:07:17.440 --> 01:07:21.039 from the company, I got up. I did not put 1207 01:07:21.079 --> 01:07:24.880 on pantygovers. But other than that, I've had my routine 1208 01:07:25.039 --> 01:07:29.719 established breakfast exercises. 1209 01:07:29.920 --> 01:07:30.800 I have a. 1210 01:07:31.000 --> 01:07:34.599 Chronic back problem that's gotten worse with time. So I'm 1211 01:07:34.719 --> 01:07:40.280 religious about not bodybuilding, but you know what I need 1212 01:07:40.280 --> 01:07:44.039 to do to keep it in check. And then in 1213 01:07:44.079 --> 01:07:47.880 those days, it was just the earliest days with computers, 1214 01:07:49.239 --> 01:07:53.039 and it wasn't until never mind all the history of computers, 1215 01:07:53.079 --> 01:07:55.719 but every vendor had their own one. They thought that 1216 01:07:55.760 --> 01:07:58.440 the future was in the machine. They didn't realize the 1217 01:07:58.440 --> 01:08:01.639 future was in the software. I had a little Hewlett 1218 01:08:01.639 --> 01:08:05.000 Packard with fourteen megabytes of memory, and that was I 1219 01:08:05.079 --> 01:08:08.280 sat there typing away on my HP. Then you'd fill 1220 01:08:08.360 --> 01:08:10.920 up the memory, you'd have to answer everything to a 1221 01:08:10.960 --> 01:08:16.520 floppy pull it out, and it's just so bizarre. My 1222 01:08:16.680 --> 01:08:21.359 husband was one of the first physicists to use computers 1223 01:08:21.399 --> 01:08:24.119 in experimental work, and they had a machine that had 1224 01:08:24.159 --> 01:08:29.239 seventy kilobytes of memory, and they with the whole thing 1225 01:08:29.359 --> 01:08:32.840 was writing programs that shifted pro code in and out 1226 01:08:32.840 --> 01:08:36.279 of the core of the machine, and of course it 1227 01:08:36.319 --> 01:08:40.600 was the size of ten refrigerators or something. But yeah, 1228 01:08:40.640 --> 01:08:44.399 it's fun. It's fun to have been part of the history. 1229 01:08:44.439 --> 01:08:46.800 So that you see, like my first book, I wrote 1230 01:08:46.800 --> 01:08:50.399 my hand and then typed my second book. I figured 1231 01:08:50.880 --> 01:08:54.560 I could eliminate the middle person and just type it 1232 01:08:54.600 --> 01:08:58.439 directly on my Smith corona, and so I did two 1233 01:08:58.520 --> 01:09:04.279 books typing in the machine and then we're processing what 1234 01:09:04.399 --> 01:09:05.000 a salvation? 1235 01:09:06.159 --> 01:09:09.920 How soon after the via Warshawsky books start coming out 1236 01:09:10.159 --> 01:09:13.439 do you get approached by Hollywood for selling the rights. 1237 01:09:14.520 --> 01:09:17.960 One of the things that my agent does as a 1238 01:09:18.000 --> 01:09:23.000 good agent is he always has been a solo agent. 1239 01:09:23.159 --> 01:09:27.960 Some people have agents who are part of a big 1240 01:09:28.039 --> 01:09:32.760 firm that has movie agents as well, and the goal 1241 01:09:32.880 --> 01:09:36.000 always is for any agent to try to get those 1242 01:09:36.119 --> 01:09:39.359 kinds of deals. So he was working really from day 1243 01:09:39.439 --> 01:09:44.399 one with his Hollywood civil rights agent to try to 1244 01:09:44.439 --> 01:09:47.720 find someone. And because it's close to impossible to have 1245 01:09:48.279 --> 01:09:51.600 a book turned into a movie is from having options. 1246 01:09:51.640 --> 01:09:54.439 And then so I had a number of options that expired, 1247 01:09:54.479 --> 01:09:59.680 and then suddenly Kathleen Turner wanted to play VII, so 1248 01:09:59.720 --> 01:10:04.159 that it was I want to say, around the time 1249 01:10:04.199 --> 01:10:07.359 I wrote my fifth book, so eighty six, eighty seven, 1250 01:10:07.479 --> 01:10:10.720 something like that, And suddenly it had to have been 1251 01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:13.479 later than that because the movie came out I think 1252 01:10:13.520 --> 01:10:17.199 in ninety ninety one, so it must have been around 1253 01:10:17.199 --> 01:10:22.000 eighty nine. Anyway, Kathleen apparently owed Disney a movie and 1254 01:10:22.039 --> 01:10:25.439 that was how the deal came about, and she really 1255 01:10:25.479 --> 01:10:29.640 wanted to play the character, so that was I was 1256 01:10:29.760 --> 01:10:32.760 very fortunate that the character spoke to her personally in 1257 01:10:32.840 --> 01:10:35.119 such a way. Even though the movie itself ended up 1258 01:10:35.680 --> 01:10:39.039 not being particularly well put together, but it still just 1259 01:10:39.199 --> 01:10:42.600 expanded the number of people who knew what I was doing. 1260 01:10:42.680 --> 01:10:46.239 It was obviously I would love it if it had 1261 01:10:46.239 --> 01:10:48.720 been a great movie in a franchise and so on, 1262 01:10:48.800 --> 01:10:53.439 and that didn't happen, but it still was a really 1263 01:10:53.600 --> 01:10:57.319 stroke of fortune for my career, my ability to be 1264 01:10:58.119 --> 01:10:59.319 working independently. 1265 01:11:01.079 --> 01:11:04.239 What was that experience like for you with that whole adaptation. 1266 01:11:04.760 --> 01:11:07.239 Did they just say Okay, thanks Sarah, here's a check 1267 01:11:07.319 --> 01:11:10.039 and we'll see you in five years or how did 1268 01:11:10.079 --> 01:11:10.439 that go? 1269 01:11:11.760 --> 01:11:15.640 I don't remember the exact sequence, but basically I was 1270 01:11:15.680 --> 01:11:20.640 in England on tour for whatever book it was, and 1271 01:11:20.840 --> 01:11:24.239 I got home to a call from a man who 1272 01:11:24.319 --> 01:11:28.159 introduced himself as a location scout, and this was how 1273 01:11:28.199 --> 01:11:30.159 I heard that they were actually making a movie. I 1274 01:11:30.159 --> 01:11:33.800 didn't know that they were doing that. So he said 1275 01:11:33.840 --> 01:11:36.680 he was in town scouting locations for the movie. And 1276 01:11:36.680 --> 01:11:39.880 I was like, WHOA what movie? And then I said, 1277 01:11:40.399 --> 01:11:43.800 I just landed half an hour ago and I'd be 1278 01:11:43.840 --> 01:11:45.800 glad to show you around tomorrow. And he said, no, 1279 01:11:47.039 --> 01:11:49.159 this is just a courtesy call to let you know 1280 01:11:49.720 --> 01:11:53.279 that we're taking over the product you used to be 1281 01:11:53.359 --> 01:11:55.880 involved in. I was like, what the product I used 1282 01:11:55.880 --> 01:11:58.119 to be involved in? My heart, my soul, my gizzick 1283 01:11:58.680 --> 01:12:02.720 so well, slap in the face, and a realization that 1284 01:12:02.800 --> 01:12:05.520 I had no power in this situation. So they were 1285 01:12:05.600 --> 01:12:07.399 going to do what they were going to do. I 1286 01:12:07.439 --> 01:12:10.760 saw the script. There were things that I wished they 1287 01:12:10.800 --> 01:12:15.279 weren't doing. The script that they were beyond and looked 1288 01:12:15.319 --> 01:12:18.600 a trifle board. There are things that I liked about 1289 01:12:18.600 --> 01:12:20.720 the movie. There were things I liked about the process, 1290 01:12:20.800 --> 01:12:23.920 but there were some big red flags. One of them 1291 01:12:24.319 --> 01:12:28.520 v I has a neighbor, a close confidant, mister Contreras, 1292 01:12:29.359 --> 01:12:34.319 and they turned him into such a really ugly stereotype 1293 01:12:34.359 --> 01:12:38.520 of a Mexican immigrant that it ruined the movie for 1294 01:12:38.560 --> 01:12:42.960 me to have is that so opposite to my values 1295 01:12:43.000 --> 01:12:47.159 and how I try to see people. There were things 1296 01:12:47.199 --> 01:12:50.319 like that, and then they wanted an explosion, so they 1297 01:12:50.359 --> 01:12:53.159 blew something up and they had a good time doing that. 1298 01:12:54.159 --> 01:12:56.800 There were things that were fun that I hadn't thought 1299 01:12:56.800 --> 01:13:01.119 about because they were good cinematically, chasing on the Chicago 1300 01:13:01.279 --> 01:13:06.800 River that was just fun. And of course Kathleen was 1301 01:13:07.000 --> 01:13:10.880 always a strong presence on the screen or when she 1302 01:13:11.000 --> 01:13:15.560 was in her heyday. There were definitely pluses and so on. 1303 01:13:16.039 --> 01:13:20.439 The big plus wasn't actually the movie itself, but it 1304 01:13:20.600 --> 01:13:23.119 used to be where v I lived that she overlooked 1305 01:13:23.119 --> 01:13:28.119 Wriggley Field, and they actually rented, and they not rented 1306 01:13:28.159 --> 01:13:30.920 an apartment, but they persuaded someone with an apartment to 1307 01:13:31.000 --> 01:13:36.640 let them film from in the living room. They rented 1308 01:13:36.680 --> 01:13:40.039 Wrigley Field, and I got to run the bases. Even 1309 01:13:40.039 --> 01:13:42.159 if you go on a paid tour, you are never 1310 01:13:42.239 --> 01:13:46.399 allowed on that sacred grass. So there I was. It 1311 01:13:46.439 --> 01:13:48.880 was night, they were shooting at night. I was out 1312 01:13:48.920 --> 01:13:54.439 in the outfield. Andre Dawson, great outfielder for originally the 1313 01:13:54.479 --> 01:13:57.720 Expos and ended his career with the Cobs. I was 1314 01:13:57.720 --> 01:14:00.720 standing where he had been spitting only hours before. So 1315 01:14:00.760 --> 01:14:03.600 I'd melt the cat and kissed the turf, and then 1316 01:14:03.640 --> 01:14:07.279 I went and ran the bases. Now I am not 1317 01:14:07.319 --> 01:14:12.000 an athlete. I did play baseball for the country school 1318 01:14:12.039 --> 01:14:15.680 to room country school I went to, and I was terrible, 1319 01:14:15.680 --> 01:14:17.439 but everyone had to play because that was how you 1320 01:14:17.479 --> 01:14:22.680 got nine people on a team. And I thought, okay, 1321 01:14:22.920 --> 01:14:28.119 I'll slide into home and the extras are in the stands. 1322 01:14:28.479 --> 01:14:31.600 They're cheering because they're bored. Nothing is happening or waiting 1323 01:14:31.600 --> 01:14:34.439 for whatever scene is being set up. And I'm rounding 1324 01:14:34.439 --> 01:14:38.399 the bases and I'm waving, and I'm thinking, oh my god, 1325 01:14:38.479 --> 01:14:42.119 this is why athletes keep doing this even after their 1326 01:14:42.319 --> 01:14:46.199 careers are clearly over, because the crowd, the cheering. And 1327 01:14:46.239 --> 01:14:47.880 then I get to home plate and I thought, I 1328 01:14:47.880 --> 01:14:49.720 have no idea how to slide, so I just fell 1329 01:14:49.760 --> 01:14:55.640 head first onto home plate. And sadly, in those days 1330 01:14:55.800 --> 01:15:02.039 before cell phones, there's no footage of my career at Wrigleyfield. 1331 01:15:02.760 --> 01:15:04.680 That sounds like an amazing experience. 1332 01:15:04.720 --> 01:15:05.560 Though, oh it was. 1333 01:15:06.000 --> 01:15:08.920 I won't say it was worth having a bad movie made, 1334 01:15:08.920 --> 01:15:11.760 but it definitely was for me. The high point of 1335 01:15:11.800 --> 01:15:13.159 the movie. 1336 01:15:13.359 --> 01:15:16.359 It sounds like you already knew that the biggest thing 1337 01:15:16.399 --> 01:15:18.319 that could come out of it is just more awareness 1338 01:15:18.359 --> 01:15:19.920 of your character and your process. 1339 01:15:20.640 --> 01:15:25.399 And it really helped also because American films, they have 1340 01:15:25.439 --> 01:15:29.920 an international market, and so it made it possible for 1341 01:15:29.960 --> 01:15:33.359 me to At one point my books were available in 1342 01:15:33.439 --> 01:15:37.680 thirty languages around Europe and Asia and so on. My 1343 01:15:37.840 --> 01:15:41.159 career isn't nearly as robust now as it was then, 1344 01:15:41.239 --> 01:15:46.720 but it definitely expanded my market and name recognition and 1345 01:15:46.760 --> 01:15:50.159 so on. I'm really glad that I had the opportunity, 1346 01:15:50.159 --> 01:15:55.039 and frankly, Disney owns the rights and won't give them up, 1347 01:15:55.079 --> 01:16:00.279 but also they're interested in doing something. And then I'm 1348 01:16:00.359 --> 01:16:03.439 very lucky right now to be represented by creative artists 1349 01:16:03.520 --> 01:16:07.039 Bruce Naker. And you never know the future Eliza ahead, 1350 01:16:07.079 --> 01:16:11.000 as Mortsaul always used to say, but something could happen, 1351 01:16:11.079 --> 01:16:13.760 and that would be great. I've lived a long time 1352 01:16:13.800 --> 01:16:18.159 with nothing happening, so I'm not hanging my hat on it. 1353 01:16:18.199 --> 01:16:20.760 But it's nice to know that people still care about 1354 01:16:20.760 --> 01:16:23.960 the character and think about doing something with her on screen. 1355 01:16:24.520 --> 01:16:26.720 I was wondering if there was any talk of bringing 1356 01:16:26.760 --> 01:16:31.000 her back, or maybe even a limited series or something, because. 1357 01:16:30.800 --> 01:16:35.119 She's exactly a streaming series or something. Yeah, it would 1358 01:16:35.119 --> 01:16:36.159 be a lot of fun. 1359 01:16:36.600 --> 01:16:39.880 Because I know Kathleen Turner is a fantastic actress, but 1360 01:16:40.439 --> 01:16:42.479 obviously she's probably not the person that was in your 1361 01:16:42.479 --> 01:16:44.960 head when you're writing these things. Did you ever have 1362 01:16:45.039 --> 01:16:47.000 anybody that you said, oh, that would be the perfect 1363 01:16:47.079 --> 01:16:47.920 via Worshovski. 1364 01:16:50.359 --> 01:16:53.199 I should have been ready for this question coming into it, 1365 01:16:53.239 --> 01:16:56.840 because of course we're talking quite a few years ago, 1366 01:16:57.600 --> 01:17:00.279 and now I can't think of the woman's last name. 1367 01:17:00.279 --> 01:17:03.520 Her first name was Amy. She was such a Chicago, tough, 1368 01:17:03.560 --> 01:17:07.520 in your face, Chicago presence. Why can't I think of 1369 01:17:07.520 --> 01:17:09.159 her last name? If it comes to me, I'll let 1370 01:17:09.199 --> 01:17:13.960 you know. But I also I really liked Jamie Lee Curtis. 1371 01:17:14.000 --> 01:17:17.560 Even though she's small compared to how I envisioned VII, 1372 01:17:17.760 --> 01:17:23.600 she does have that kind of she just eat my 1373 01:17:23.760 --> 01:17:27.920 shorts kind of Bradson's in the attitude, and at the 1374 01:17:27.960 --> 01:17:33.239 same time that she's just irresistible. She can say stuff 1375 01:17:33.279 --> 01:17:36.159 like that and people just take him from her because 1376 01:17:37.800 --> 01:17:42.800 because she's Jamie Lee Curtis. Yeah, but of course when 1377 01:17:42.880 --> 01:17:45.479 Kathleen said she wanted to do it, she was a 1378 01:17:45.520 --> 01:17:50.640 superstar at that point, and it was quite an experience. 1379 01:17:50.720 --> 01:17:53.720 Yeah, what are you working on these days? 1380 01:17:54.399 --> 01:17:57.319 I'm taking a break from VII. I published the twenty 1381 01:17:57.359 --> 01:18:00.760 second novel in the series in April of last year. 1382 01:18:01.279 --> 01:18:01.760 And. 1383 01:18:03.079 --> 01:18:05.920 It was a hard book to write. Emotionally, it was. 1384 01:18:06.079 --> 01:18:08.600 It really took a lot out of me, and I thought, 1385 01:18:08.640 --> 01:18:10.760 I need a break from her because I can't just 1386 01:18:10.840 --> 01:18:13.960 go right back into the ring. I'm working on a 1387 01:18:14.000 --> 01:18:19.319 book with a woman named Lily. Lily is older the 1388 01:18:19.439 --> 01:18:21.960 I is going to just stay around fifty because I 1389 01:18:21.960 --> 01:18:25.920 want her to be as physical as she physical, sexual, 1390 01:18:25.960 --> 01:18:30.840 all those things that not that we seventy somethings aren't 1391 01:18:31.119 --> 01:18:33.479 physical and sexual and all those things, but we'd also 1392 01:18:33.560 --> 01:18:35.479 tend to groan a lot while we're. 1393 01:18:37.119 --> 01:18:37.600 Anyway. 1394 01:18:37.720 --> 01:18:43.279 Lily is a retired CIA agent who goes a foul 1395 01:18:43.359 --> 01:18:48.399 of the agency by starting to put out podcasts or 1396 01:18:48.399 --> 01:18:51.239 maybe substacks. Who knows what it'll be by the time 1397 01:18:51.239 --> 01:18:53.439 I finished writing the book, what the trend deep thing 1398 01:18:53.479 --> 01:18:58.520 will be. But anyway, she gets appalled by the consequences 1399 01:18:58.520 --> 01:19:02.000 of some of the things that she'd so the agency 1400 01:19:02.079 --> 01:19:04.600 is not happy, and when they can't get her to 1401 01:19:04.600 --> 01:19:06.800 shut up, they wanted to kill her. So she's on 1402 01:19:06.840 --> 01:19:08.960 the run from the CIA, and she's going to have 1403 01:19:09.039 --> 01:19:11.880 to escape somehow. I haven't figured that out yet, but 1404 01:19:11.920 --> 01:19:17.720 I will. I've created an imaginary country because I thought 1405 01:19:17.760 --> 01:19:20.560 if I set her in a real country, I will 1406 01:19:20.600 --> 01:19:24.079 have to spend decades researching everything about it, and even 1407 01:19:24.119 --> 01:19:26.840 then I'll make horrible mistakes and I'll get ten thousand 1408 01:19:26.920 --> 01:19:31.159 letters saying didn't you know that Congo did this and 1409 01:19:31.199 --> 01:19:35.439 not that? So I've created a country called Hyalastan, which 1410 01:19:35.479 --> 01:19:40.439 is Turkish for imaginary country. It's carved out of the 1411 01:19:40.479 --> 01:19:43.760 west of the all the stands in Central Asia. And 1412 01:19:44.800 --> 01:19:47.840 I'm having so much fun. I can see why it 1413 01:19:47.920 --> 01:19:51.800 took Tolkien forever to finish writing the Lord of the 1414 01:19:51.880 --> 01:19:54.880 Rings trilogy, because when you're inventing a country and a 1415 01:19:55.000 --> 01:19:59.479 language and an epic and a history, it's just so 1416 01:19:59.720 --> 01:20:03.279 fun that you forget you're also supposed to be telling 1417 01:20:03.319 --> 01:20:05.439 a story and moving your character forward. 1418 01:20:06.800 --> 01:20:08.800 He said, you don't know exactly what happens to her, 1419 01:20:08.840 --> 01:20:10.199 how she gets out of this, So I take it 1420 01:20:10.239 --> 01:20:13.000 you don't outline everything. You just kind of make it 1421 01:20:13.119 --> 01:20:14.000 up as you go along. 1422 01:20:15.199 --> 01:20:19.119 I was thinking this morning. Process is something that we 1423 01:20:19.199 --> 01:20:22.279 writers talk about when we get together and some people 1424 01:20:23.199 --> 01:20:25.960 I was like a PD. James was a personal friend, 1425 01:20:26.199 --> 01:20:30.800 and Phyllis said she would outline in such detail that 1426 01:20:31.000 --> 01:20:34.640 she would just write the chapter that most appealed to 1427 01:20:34.680 --> 01:20:38.079 her on a given day. I don't have that kind 1428 01:20:38.119 --> 01:20:42.000 of chess playing brain. If this person does this, this person, 1429 01:20:42.880 --> 01:20:45.800 I would say, I write more as an explorer, someone 1430 01:20:45.840 --> 01:20:49.880 who I set my characters out and they're walking a trail, 1431 01:20:49.960 --> 01:20:54.319 and then that trail leads to an impenetrable forest or 1432 01:20:54.359 --> 01:20:56.560 a swamp or something, and I can see the book 1433 01:20:56.600 --> 01:20:59.720 isn't working, and so I pull back and go back. 1434 01:21:00.039 --> 01:21:03.920 Each time I do that, it comes more into focus. 1435 01:21:05.000 --> 01:21:08.039 And I wish I wrote as many of my peers 1436 01:21:08.119 --> 01:21:11.119 do a book two books a year, but I can't 1437 01:21:11.239 --> 01:21:17.720 think that way, and it's just it's frustrating. But Christmas 1438 01:21:17.800 --> 01:21:20.399 Day I was on page two hundred and seventy, and 1439 01:21:20.560 --> 01:21:24.600 New Year's Day I was on page ninety. But now 1440 01:21:24.640 --> 01:21:28.079 I'm back to one seventy. Trail is going uphill, not 1441 01:21:28.359 --> 01:21:31.479 into a small and you'd think you'd get to a 1442 01:21:31.520 --> 01:21:34.159 point in your life where you would know ahead of 1443 01:21:34.199 --> 01:21:37.000 time that it was that this trial was an error. 1444 01:21:37.039 --> 01:21:41.319 But it's not that way for me, And the word 1445 01:21:41.399 --> 01:21:45.600 on the page really matters to me a lot, writing 1446 01:21:45.680 --> 01:21:52.640 as carefully as I can, no sloppy grammar, No I'm 1447 01:21:52.680 --> 01:21:56.239 gonna instead of I am going to because I think 1448 01:21:56.279 --> 01:21:58.600 it looks bad on the page. You talk like that, 1449 01:21:58.720 --> 01:22:01.039 but you it doesn't look good on the page when 1450 01:22:01.039 --> 01:22:04.760 you write like that. And the other thing, going back 1451 01:22:04.800 --> 01:22:09.640 to the very beginning, Stuart Kaminski when he was teaching 1452 01:22:09.680 --> 01:22:13.439 this class, he cautioned us all everyone in the class, 1453 01:22:14.399 --> 01:22:17.399 that slang dates you more than it makes you look 1454 01:22:17.439 --> 01:22:22.159 current and hip, and especially now with the net, slang 1455 01:22:22.319 --> 01:22:25.880 is So that's something that I tend to shy away from. 1456 01:22:26.760 --> 01:22:29.880 Yeah, there's definitely a timeless quality about your books and 1457 01:22:29.880 --> 01:22:32.439 about your stories. The one thing, though, that I do 1458 01:22:32.560 --> 01:22:36.319 have to kind of chuckle at, was when her car 1459 01:22:36.439 --> 01:22:39.319 was totaled and she goes to buy a new car 1460 01:22:39.439 --> 01:22:41.800 with that thirty five hundred dollars check, and I'm like, 1461 01:22:41.880 --> 01:22:43.720 oh my gosh, what years. 1462 01:22:43.520 --> 01:22:48.039 That I know. I remember calling back in the seventies. 1463 01:22:48.479 --> 01:22:52.000 My boss came in bragging she had bought a car 1464 01:22:52.119 --> 01:22:55.760 for three thousand dollars, which we were all just shocked. 1465 01:22:55.800 --> 01:22:58.119 Who would spend that kind of money on a car. 1466 01:22:59.159 --> 01:23:01.760 It's almost like should have variables in them that can 1467 01:23:01.840 --> 01:23:02.479 adjust to the. 1468 01:23:02.439 --> 01:23:06.800 GDPs I put in the CPI calculator. Maybe I should 1469 01:23:06.800 --> 01:23:10.119 put that in the front of my three issues. And 1470 01:23:10.239 --> 01:23:15.880 please note that I had never seen Perry Mason Raymond 1471 01:23:15.880 --> 01:23:20.439 Burr's Perry Mason because my family were too snotty to 1472 01:23:20.479 --> 01:23:23.039 have a television. My parents were like they were too intellectual. 1473 01:23:24.840 --> 01:23:28.960 So Perry Mason reruns got me through lockdown, and I 1474 01:23:29.039 --> 01:23:32.359 love them. I watched every episode twice, but I did 1475 01:23:32.359 --> 01:23:36.760 have to go look up the CPI multiplier to figure 1476 01:23:36.800 --> 01:23:41.520 out that things in what seemed like nothing in nineteen 1477 01:23:41.840 --> 01:23:44.520 in nineteen fifty five seemed like nothing to us was 1478 01:23:44.640 --> 01:23:48.439 actually millions of dollars in today's dollars. 1479 01:23:48.640 --> 01:23:51.119 Ow Dary still had ten thousand dollars, and the whole 1480 01:23:51.960 --> 01:23:53.199 audience gasps. 1481 01:23:53.359 --> 01:23:53.560 Yeah. 1482 01:23:54.680 --> 01:23:57.239 Ms Berreski, thank you so much for your time. This 1483 01:23:57.319 --> 01:23:58.840 was so nice talking with you today. 1484 01:23:59.760 --> 01:24:02.800 Thanks, thank you for your interest and for just making 1485 01:24:02.800 --> 01:24:05.760 it such a fun and engaging experience. It isn't always, 1486 01:24:05.760 --> 01:24:08.560 but you really made me feel like I really wanted 1487 01:24:08.560 --> 01:24:11.479 to be alive with you, So thanks for that. 1488 01:24:13.760 --> 01:24:15.960 All right, up next, we're going to hear from screenwriters 1489 01:24:16.039 --> 01:24:19.800 David Aaron Cohen and Nick Fiel, one right after the other. 1490 01:24:20.279 --> 01:24:22.840 You're a fellow Wolverine. From what I understand. 1491 01:24:23.279 --> 01:24:27.039 Wolverene and I grew up spent all my summers in 1492 01:24:27.159 --> 01:24:30.119 Michigan and ended up even when I went to Michigan, 1493 01:24:30.760 --> 01:24:32.720 I was like an in state because we had a 1494 01:24:32.760 --> 01:24:37.399 home in South Hayn. That's where I would spend the summers. 1495 01:24:37.760 --> 01:24:40.159 Speaking of those early days, I'd love to know how 1496 01:24:40.199 --> 01:24:41.840 you decided to become a screenwriter. 1497 01:24:42.560 --> 01:24:46.520 I was always writing on some level. I went to Michigan, 1498 01:24:47.880 --> 01:24:50.600 was in the Honors English program, thought I would be 1499 01:24:51.560 --> 01:24:55.279 the next salt Bellow, and that was my trajectory for myself. 1500 01:24:55.720 --> 01:24:59.000 That didn't work out, and I never studied film or 1501 01:24:59.079 --> 01:25:01.560 screenwriting anything. I mean, I always loved movies, but I 1502 01:25:01.680 --> 01:25:04.760 just never thought about it in that way. In a 1503 01:25:04.880 --> 01:25:08.640 very sort of ironic twist of fate, I moved to 1504 01:25:08.880 --> 01:25:14.520 Israel in the eighties and ended up getting work there 1505 01:25:15.039 --> 01:25:21.399 on first like TV show that they were doing, educational 1506 01:25:21.479 --> 01:25:26.439 television network, and then went to work for Manachem Golan, 1507 01:25:27.159 --> 01:25:31.359 who famously had Cannon Films in the eighties, and they're 1508 01:25:31.399 --> 01:25:36.720 the guys who made all the Chuck Norris movies, either 1509 01:25:36.840 --> 01:25:42.039 did a breakdancing movie, Electric Boogaloo or something. Anyway, there 1510 01:25:42.079 --> 01:25:44.920 I got a lot of experience and ended up making 1511 01:25:44.960 --> 01:25:51.800 my first feature in Tel Aviv. And then once I 1512 01:25:51.880 --> 01:25:54.239 did that, I was like, I think I can do this, 1513 01:25:54.479 --> 01:25:58.399 like we're a living So, with a lot of hubris 1514 01:25:58.399 --> 01:26:02.439 and a lot of ignorance, moved to La saying this 1515 01:26:02.479 --> 01:26:03.800 is what I was going to do with the wife 1516 01:26:03.880 --> 01:26:08.319 and a one year old and not really knowing anyone. 1517 01:26:09.119 --> 01:26:12.560 I had one college friend with Michigan and he was 1518 01:26:12.560 --> 01:26:17.800 working as a reader for TriStar, And then he had 1519 01:26:18.680 --> 01:26:22.439 one friend who we also sometimes read for, who was 1520 01:26:22.479 --> 01:26:28.159 a development guy named John Marsh. And John worked at 1521 01:26:28.520 --> 01:26:31.880 Chestnut Hill Productions, which was the movie company owned by 1522 01:26:31.960 --> 01:26:36.159 Jeff Lourie, the guy who owns the Philadelphia Eagles, but 1523 01:26:36.239 --> 01:26:40.000 at the time he was more scion of a family 1524 01:26:40.119 --> 01:26:42.439 that owed a lot of movie theaters in the East Coast, 1525 01:26:43.279 --> 01:26:47.119 so wanted to dip his toe into the business and 1526 01:26:47.159 --> 01:26:52.520 started Chestnut Hill. And yeah, so John actually Marsh was 1527 01:26:52.760 --> 01:26:55.920 shout out to John Marsh because he met with me. 1528 01:26:56.159 --> 01:27:00.680 It was during the strike nineteen eighty eight. You couldn't 1529 01:27:00.680 --> 01:27:03.000 meet with anyone else that we met with me, and 1530 01:27:03.039 --> 01:27:05.720 I gave him a specscript that I had written when 1531 01:27:05.760 --> 01:27:09.000 I was in Tel Aviv, and she really liked it 1532 01:27:09.039 --> 01:27:13.319 and helped me rewrite it so that I could sub 1533 01:27:13.479 --> 01:27:15.600 so he could submit it to agents that he knew, 1534 01:27:16.279 --> 01:27:20.279 and through him, I got through that experience, I got representation, 1535 01:27:21.439 --> 01:27:26.399 and then maybe six months later, eight months later, he 1536 01:27:26.560 --> 01:27:29.199 was like, David, I have a thing project for you, 1537 01:27:30.039 --> 01:27:32.159 and this could be. It ended up being my very 1538 01:27:32.239 --> 01:27:37.119 first getting in Hollywood, and it was to do a 1539 01:27:37.319 --> 01:27:41.520 rewrite of the Edward Taylor I think that was the 1540 01:27:41.520 --> 01:27:44.000 guy's name who was the original writer and v I 1541 01:27:44.920 --> 01:27:47.319 and it was one of those situations where they were 1542 01:27:47.359 --> 01:27:48.840 going to hire me. They were going to pay me 1543 01:27:48.960 --> 01:27:53.399 Polish money to do a page one rewrite, which you know, 1544 01:27:53.800 --> 01:27:57.680 and I was thrilled, of course, because I had never 1545 01:27:57.720 --> 01:28:01.680 really made any serious money writing and that was I 1546 01:28:01.760 --> 01:28:04.039 remember I got paid four thousand dollars to do that. 1547 01:28:04.399 --> 01:28:08.560 I was really happy. That's in nineteen ninety one maybe, 1548 01:28:09.640 --> 01:28:12.239 and so I did that complete kind of re imagination 1549 01:28:12.359 --> 01:28:16.720 of it. And I also because I'm a Chicago and 1550 01:28:16.760 --> 01:28:19.039 that's where I grew up, it was very easy for 1551 01:28:19.119 --> 01:28:24.199 me to do that. I also loved the whole detective genre, 1552 01:28:24.640 --> 01:28:28.800 the noir of it, all the eyes character, and so 1553 01:28:29.399 --> 01:28:31.640 for me, I was more inspired by China Out. It 1554 01:28:31.760 --> 01:28:34.720 was that kind of a thing. And I read all 1555 01:28:35.039 --> 01:28:36.960 the Sarah Peretzky books and it was kind of a 1556 01:28:37.000 --> 01:28:40.920 mishmash of a couple of them. So yeah, so how 1557 01:28:40.920 --> 01:28:44.720 I got started. Actually, that ended up being my sort 1558 01:28:44.760 --> 01:28:47.720 of start. It led to my start in all of it. 1559 01:28:48.479 --> 01:28:51.279 What was the Israeli film that you made? I'm very 1560 01:28:51.279 --> 01:28:52.000 curious about that. 1561 01:28:52.880 --> 01:28:55.039 It's never been released. I have a friend of mine 1562 01:28:55.039 --> 01:28:56.640 who lives in Europe, and you sent me because I 1563 01:28:56.680 --> 01:28:58.319 didn't even have a DVD. I wanted to show it 1564 01:28:58.399 --> 01:29:03.119 to my kids point of view. And it was like 1565 01:29:03.159 --> 01:29:08.079 an Israeli American split cast. John Savage was in it. 1566 01:29:08.199 --> 01:29:13.560 He played the lead, and Fisher Stevens, who became a friend. 1567 01:29:14.039 --> 01:29:16.119 And at the time, Fisher had just come off doing 1568 01:29:17.079 --> 01:29:19.439 what were those robot movies where he played the Indian guy. 1569 01:29:19.479 --> 01:29:21.720 They would never let anyone do that today, short Cirt. 1570 01:29:22.239 --> 01:29:26.039 So he was like like this nerdy film school kid, 1571 01:29:26.319 --> 01:29:28.439 and it was a story about a group of FELP 1572 01:29:28.479 --> 01:29:31.119 students who have to make a movie based on a 1573 01:29:31.159 --> 01:29:35.000 short story of a famously reclusive Israeli author who wrote 1574 01:29:35.000 --> 01:29:39.439 about his experience in the war, and so they it 1575 01:29:39.520 --> 01:29:42.600 becomes a mystery of what happened when he was out 1576 01:29:42.640 --> 01:29:46.439 there and his commando team ran into a shepherd. We 1577 01:29:46.479 --> 01:29:49.119 had to make this decision. Do they kill him, because 1578 01:29:49.279 --> 01:29:52.159 otherwise they let him go, he'll reveal that they're there. 1579 01:29:52.560 --> 01:29:54.319 Or do they let him or do they let him 1580 01:29:54.319 --> 01:29:57.840 go anyway? So John Savage played the author. He was 1581 01:29:57.880 --> 01:30:00.520 actually really good. I still haven't actually opened up and 1582 01:30:00.560 --> 01:30:03.319 watched that DVD. I'm going to. I'm planning on doing 1583 01:30:03.359 --> 01:30:06.680 a screening with my adult children and see how bad 1584 01:30:06.680 --> 01:30:09.560 it is when your first screenplay that you ever wrote 1585 01:30:09.600 --> 01:30:11.399 gets turned into a movie. I would recommend. 1586 01:30:13.560 --> 01:30:14.880 Did you direct that as well? 1587 01:30:15.640 --> 01:30:19.399 No, it was directed by an Israeli director in ned 1588 01:30:19.439 --> 01:30:24.079 Noam Yavor. We had worked together. I had made a 1589 01:30:24.479 --> 01:30:27.880 with him. We had done a one hour music video 1590 01:30:28.039 --> 01:30:31.640 compilation for the Israeli singer o Fra Haraza, who became 1591 01:30:32.000 --> 01:30:37.000 pretty famous in American club scene. Later on died tragically 1592 01:30:37.039 --> 01:30:40.680 of age, like at a very young age. But that's 1593 01:30:40.680 --> 01:30:45.600 how we met. And then he had some financing and 1594 01:30:45.640 --> 01:30:50.119 then Golden Globus came in and put up the production services, 1595 01:30:50.840 --> 01:30:55.319 and yeah, we shot it all in Israel, and then 1596 01:30:55.359 --> 01:30:58.399 they got into trouble with investors and they'd suit each 1597 01:30:58.439 --> 01:31:00.880 other and they couldn't agree on a release got released 1598 01:31:00.880 --> 01:31:02.560 in Europe and on the US. So you know, you 1599 01:31:02.680 --> 01:31:04.000 need to focal Hollywood story. 1600 01:31:05.439 --> 01:31:08.039 So with vi I Worshowsky and you touch about how 1601 01:31:08.079 --> 01:31:11.119 you're reading all the books and kind of mashing them together, 1602 01:31:11.239 --> 01:31:14.399 taking the best bits and everything. I don't imagine did 1603 01:31:14.439 --> 01:31:17.000 you read the earlier draft or did you kind of 1604 01:31:17.079 --> 01:31:18.960 try to put that aside so you didn't even think 1605 01:31:19.000 --> 01:31:19.479 about it. 1606 01:31:20.239 --> 01:31:23.800 Every time you do that process, there is a form 1607 01:31:23.960 --> 01:31:28.399 of like reimagining things and trying to figure out what works, 1608 01:31:28.479 --> 01:31:32.039 what doesn't, all that kind of stuff. And I have 1609 01:31:32.439 --> 01:31:34.079 this is a long time ago, by the way, like 1610 01:31:34.920 --> 01:31:37.840 nobody's asked you about via Warshawski in thirty five years. 1611 01:31:37.880 --> 01:31:40.399 The only other mention I've had of this movie recently 1612 01:31:41.199 --> 01:31:43.439 is that I'm doing this project. I'm developing a TV 1613 01:31:43.520 --> 01:31:47.199 show with Blake Griffin has a new production company called 1614 01:31:47.239 --> 01:31:51.880 Mortal Media, you know that basketball player, And he's doing 1615 01:31:51.920 --> 01:31:55.479 it together with Ryan Khalil, who is like a former 1616 01:31:55.960 --> 01:31:59.680 NFL player, but they're very talented, they have great taste. 1617 01:32:00.239 --> 01:32:03.319 So we're developing this show and the guy who runs 1618 01:32:03.359 --> 01:32:06.159 his company when we met for the first time. Now 1619 01:32:06.199 --> 01:32:07.800 we've been working on the show now for a couple 1620 01:32:07.800 --> 01:32:09.720 of months, but he was like, damn, I just got 1621 01:32:09.800 --> 01:32:12.800 to tell you. When I was like twelve years old, 1622 01:32:13.159 --> 01:32:17.279 I got like a VHS copy of v I Wor 1623 01:32:17.359 --> 01:32:20.359 Shawski and I used to watch that thing, and I remembered. 1624 01:32:20.399 --> 01:32:22.199 I was like, dude, you're the only one who I've 1625 01:32:22.199 --> 01:32:24.000 ever talked to you about it since that. So it 1626 01:32:24.079 --> 01:32:26.479 was just funny that now that you called and was like, oh, okay, 1627 01:32:27.720 --> 01:32:30.239 and you wait long enough and everything comes around. 1628 01:32:30.960 --> 01:32:34.039 Well, you're one of several writers on that one. Do 1629 01:32:34.079 --> 01:32:35.640 you know who it went to after you? 1630 01:32:36.640 --> 01:32:36.800 Oh? 1631 01:32:36.840 --> 01:32:37.680 I do very much. 1632 01:32:37.920 --> 01:32:38.159 Yeah. 1633 01:32:38.239 --> 01:32:41.359 Yeah, that's a funny story. The first part of it 1634 01:32:41.399 --> 01:32:45.720 is that I did this page one rewrite of at 1635 01:32:45.720 --> 01:32:52.720 Taylor's draft, and I handed it in. I remember it 1636 01:32:52.800 --> 01:32:56.039 was in December. I can't remember this because it's connected 1637 01:32:56.079 --> 01:32:58.000 up to my son was about to be born, so 1638 01:32:58.199 --> 01:33:01.079 he was born in eighty So I handed it in 1639 01:33:01.119 --> 01:33:05.760 December of nineteen eighty nine and it went out to 1640 01:33:06.000 --> 01:33:10.359 Kathleen Turner to read over the winter break, because in 1641 01:33:10.359 --> 01:33:12.840 those days they would set up the script and of 1642 01:33:12.840 --> 01:33:16.000 course everything is just and delivered. There's no Internet and 1643 01:33:16.039 --> 01:33:20.279 all that stuff were popping prehistoric times here, so it 1644 01:33:20.319 --> 01:33:24.520 went out to her. In the meantime, my wife was 1645 01:33:24.560 --> 01:33:29.159 like nine months pregnant with my second son, and because 1646 01:33:29.239 --> 01:33:34.239 I got the job from Chestnut Hill, it made me 1647 01:33:34.399 --> 01:33:39.840 qualify for the WGA health insurance, right, but it only 1648 01:33:40.000 --> 01:33:44.199 kicks in after one quarter because I qualified over the 1649 01:33:44.239 --> 01:33:49.079 summer right. Then the insurance was going to kick in 1650 01:33:49.439 --> 01:33:53.439 on January first, and my wife's due date was January third, 1651 01:33:53.479 --> 01:33:55.039 and I was like, hone, you just got to keep 1652 01:33:55.079 --> 01:33:58.159 your legs crossed until after they because otherwise we're paying 1653 01:33:58.960 --> 01:34:01.439 for this birth because I had no health insurance. 1654 01:34:01.600 --> 01:34:01.760 Right. 1655 01:34:02.880 --> 01:34:07.560 Of course, the winter vacation starts, she goes into labor 1656 01:34:08.079 --> 01:34:11.039 and we found my son is born on December twenty sixth, 1657 01:34:11.960 --> 01:34:13.840 so we had to pay for it out of cash. 1658 01:34:13.880 --> 01:34:15.680 I don't pocket remember. It was like it was a 1659 01:34:15.720 --> 01:34:18.520 whole different world. But anyway, which was fine. It was 1660 01:34:18.560 --> 01:34:21.960 like whatever he was healthy, everything was good. But the 1661 01:34:21.960 --> 01:34:24.560 better news that came with his birth was like it 1662 01:34:24.640 --> 01:34:28.119 was literally like the same day or the day before, 1663 01:34:29.199 --> 01:34:32.640 John marsh, my executive at Chestnut Hill, calls and said, 1664 01:34:33.600 --> 01:34:38.000 Kathleen's on board. She wants to play the Eye, which 1665 01:34:38.039 --> 01:34:41.560 was a great acknowledgment of the work that I did, 1666 01:34:41.600 --> 01:34:45.039 and that we attracted the movie starring which was great. 1667 01:34:46.760 --> 01:34:52.960 So that was that, and then what happened was Hollywood Pictures, 1668 01:34:53.000 --> 01:34:56.600 which at the time was that the production arm of 1669 01:34:56.640 --> 01:34:59.720 Disney they had touchdown, they had Hollywood Pictures was doing 1670 01:35:00.119 --> 01:35:04.560 trying to create their own identity. And then that led 1671 01:35:04.600 --> 01:35:09.039 to my first sort of studio gig doing a rewrite 1672 01:35:09.079 --> 01:35:12.960 of my rewrite because they wanted to have their notes 1673 01:35:12.960 --> 01:35:16.680 and stuff like that. So I went into Disney and 1674 01:35:16.720 --> 01:35:20.439 Burbank met with the executive his name was Charles Hirsharre, 1675 01:35:20.560 --> 01:35:24.159 it was his name, and had a really great experience. 1676 01:35:25.560 --> 01:35:28.079 I did a rewrite and now I actually got paid 1677 01:35:28.359 --> 01:35:33.119 like appropriate money. That's just like being exploited money, which 1678 01:35:33.119 --> 01:35:36.439 at the time was also twenty grand or something. Today 1679 01:35:36.439 --> 01:35:39.680 it wouldn't pay for over months rent in venice. But anyway, 1680 01:35:40.359 --> 01:35:43.560 so I did that and was really happy with how 1681 01:35:43.600 --> 01:35:47.680 it came out, and John was excited and Chestnut Hill 1682 01:35:48.000 --> 01:35:50.199 was excited. Everybody was happy and was we were all 1683 01:35:50.239 --> 01:35:56.279 moving towards production. So this is in May of nineteen ninety. 1684 01:35:57.119 --> 01:36:01.359 I finished my rewrites. I remember the day that they 1685 01:36:01.479 --> 01:36:05.760 had me because the day that I was working extra 1686 01:36:05.840 --> 01:36:08.960 time with John and doing all the last minute revisions 1687 01:36:09.039 --> 01:36:12.880 to send it out to the studio. So we finished, 1688 01:36:12.880 --> 01:36:15.399 but it was a weekend, so they were like, you 1689 01:36:15.520 --> 01:36:18.920 have to deliver the script to Jeff Katzenberg, like they 1690 01:36:18.920 --> 01:36:19.880 were going to give it to us. 1691 01:36:19.960 --> 01:36:21.159 Yeah, no, I'm not sure. 1692 01:36:20.920 --> 01:36:25.760 Messaging firm or whatever the messenger service and for whatever 1693 01:36:25.840 --> 01:36:27.600 reason they weren't available. Don't know, because it was like 1694 01:36:27.640 --> 01:36:30.560 a Sunday, I don't know what it was. In the end, 1695 01:36:31.159 --> 01:36:32.079 I printed. 1696 01:36:31.760 --> 01:36:34.119 It out and delivered it. 1697 01:36:34.119 --> 01:36:37.680 The Kats and Verbs Malibu house was probably just burned 1698 01:36:37.720 --> 01:36:43.800 down and dropped it off there, right, And it was 1699 01:36:43.880 --> 01:36:47.920 this moment of excitement and kind of terror in a 1700 01:36:47.960 --> 01:36:50.319 way because you don't know what they're going to think, 1701 01:36:50.680 --> 01:36:53.640 and you hear all these stories about the what happens 1702 01:36:53.720 --> 01:36:57.840 at that level. Right now, the big weeks are getting involved, 1703 01:36:58.720 --> 01:37:03.319 and so a day goes by, two days go by, 1704 01:37:03.880 --> 01:37:08.399 three days go by. Could hear anything like it's radio silence, right? 1705 01:37:08.960 --> 01:37:10.960 And now I'm starting to get nervous, and I'm calling 1706 01:37:11.039 --> 01:37:14.359 John Marshall at the time. He don't worry, it's fine, 1707 01:37:14.840 --> 01:37:19.520 I'll see what happens. And then finally, like a whole 1708 01:37:19.600 --> 01:37:23.239 week and another weekend goes by and then I get 1709 01:37:23.279 --> 01:37:27.399 the call from John. And the way I describe it 1710 01:37:27.479 --> 01:37:30.520 is that I had the complete Hollywood experience on my 1711 01:37:30.640 --> 01:37:33.920 very first movie, right where I have the big break, 1712 01:37:34.319 --> 01:37:36.720 I get thing, I get the movie star attached, right. 1713 01:37:36.840 --> 01:37:38.600 But then comes the other part of it, which is 1714 01:37:38.920 --> 01:37:42.479 I get fired, I get rewritten. They change the movie 1715 01:37:42.520 --> 01:37:46.560 from a drama to a comedy, like everything that could 1716 01:37:46.640 --> 01:37:50.880 have happened, right, And so that's the beginning of what unfolded, 1717 01:37:51.119 --> 01:37:55.520 which is Katzenberg read it and he said, I think 1718 01:37:55.520 --> 01:37:58.520 this is too much like Chinatown. We want it to 1719 01:37:58.560 --> 01:38:02.119 be more like paper Moon. I was gonna say something, 1720 01:38:02.159 --> 01:38:04.600 but Moon, Yes, paper Moon. So they wanted to have 1721 01:38:04.640 --> 01:38:08.239 more of that quality, right that it was like a 1722 01:38:08.279 --> 01:38:11.520 girl but because there was a character kat who was 1723 01:38:11.560 --> 01:38:15.840 the daughter in it, and so that was the big thing. 1724 01:38:15.920 --> 01:38:18.600 It was like, we think it's to be more more 1725 01:38:18.720 --> 01:38:21.439 like paper Moon and not less like Chinatown. And I 1726 01:38:21.520 --> 01:38:23.920 was cruss because I'm like, I'm a Chinatown fan, and 1727 01:38:23.920 --> 01:38:27.039 that's what inspired me. And I loved the darkness of 1728 01:38:27.119 --> 01:38:31.279 the books and all that stuff, and I felt an 1729 01:38:31.319 --> 01:38:33.920 obligation to Sarah Perevsky as well, in the sense that 1730 01:38:33.960 --> 01:38:35.600 this is the stuff that she did, and I didn't 1731 01:38:35.600 --> 01:38:40.359 want it to be the hollywoodization of whatever. But that's 1732 01:38:40.359 --> 01:38:43.479 what happened. So they hired this guy named Nick Thiel, 1733 01:38:44.239 --> 01:38:47.840 who was like one of the studio hacks I would 1734 01:38:47.840 --> 01:38:50.520 call him in that he did a lot of rewrites 1735 01:38:51.079 --> 01:38:54.960 for Disney and I can't even remember what his other 1736 01:38:55.079 --> 01:38:57.479 credits were, but they definitely weren't like things in the 1737 01:38:57.520 --> 01:39:02.079 May of Chinatown. They were more light fair. So that's 1738 01:39:02.079 --> 01:39:07.439 what happened. So I got let go. John thought they 1739 01:39:07.439 --> 01:39:10.560 were hiring Nick. They kind of sort of like suffered through. 1740 01:39:10.600 --> 01:39:12.720 Next I would hear from John how it was going, 1741 01:39:14.039 --> 01:39:19.000 and then he delivered a draft right maybe two months later, 1742 01:39:19.000 --> 01:39:22.479 in July, i'd say it was, And then they were 1743 01:39:22.520 --> 01:39:26.600 still now six weeks or seven weeks before the start 1744 01:39:26.640 --> 01:39:33.640 of production and messing with the script. So then by 1745 01:39:33.640 --> 01:39:36.840 that time they had hired Jeff Canoe to be the director, 1746 01:39:36.840 --> 01:39:41.199 and I'm thinking, okay, the guy who directed Police Academy 1747 01:39:41.680 --> 01:39:45.199 six or whatever it was, wouldn't have been my first 1748 01:39:45.319 --> 01:39:48.439 choice for the kind of material that I was hoping 1749 01:39:48.520 --> 01:39:51.199 that there would be. But by this time the ship 1750 01:39:51.199 --> 01:39:55.680 would sail. It was going to be something else. Then 1751 01:39:55.760 --> 01:39:59.399 the word from John Marsh was Jeff Canoe was taking 1752 01:39:59.399 --> 01:40:02.119 a crack at it now because they felt they weren't 1753 01:40:02.119 --> 01:40:06.600 happy with nick Field's draft. And then he started like 1754 01:40:06.720 --> 01:40:12.399 cutting and pasting between at Taylor's draft, my draft, and 1755 01:40:12.520 --> 01:40:15.720 nick Field's draft. That was like a classic Hollywood right, 1756 01:40:16.840 --> 01:40:21.439 great success, as a borat might say, so that was it. 1757 01:40:22.239 --> 01:40:25.840 By the time I got invited out to the set 1758 01:40:26.000 --> 01:40:28.039 in Long Beach, it was like the first day of 1759 01:40:28.039 --> 01:40:31.199 principal photography maybe, and I met Jeff Canoe and all 1760 01:40:31.239 --> 01:40:34.920 that kind of stuff. It was like I had let go. 1761 01:40:35.560 --> 01:40:37.560 You'd never let go because it was like my first 1762 01:40:37.560 --> 01:40:39.920 baby in a way. So I was really upset, to 1763 01:40:39.960 --> 01:40:45.359 be honest, But I also I knew that everyone told me, Hey, 1764 01:40:45.640 --> 01:40:49.000 getting produced is the main thing. Don't worry about how 1765 01:40:49.039 --> 01:40:51.560 it turns out, just that you get a credit. Right, 1766 01:40:52.840 --> 01:40:57.239 So the movie goes into production, right, I see all 1767 01:40:57.279 --> 01:41:00.359 the other casting, and they had some good people in there, right. 1768 01:41:01.239 --> 01:41:05.560 We had Charles Derning playing the Lieutenant. He was great. 1769 01:41:06.119 --> 01:41:08.560 I thought j O. Sanders did a nice job is 1770 01:41:09.000 --> 01:41:11.640 the put up on the boyfriend. And then we had 1771 01:41:12.119 --> 01:41:15.439 good Girl who I don't remember. She was in Hall alone, 1772 01:41:16.359 --> 01:41:19.039 Angela go Toles. I don't know if you made any 1773 01:41:19.079 --> 01:41:22.680 movies after that, but anyway, Oh, and Wayne Knight would 1774 01:41:22.720 --> 01:41:27.000 become famous on Seinfeldt as the post bet. But yeah, whatever, 1775 01:41:27.520 --> 01:41:31.239 it was all good. Those were the days when the 1776 01:41:31.319 --> 01:41:34.520 studios would still do gifts to the whole cast and 1777 01:41:34.600 --> 01:41:38.319 crew when movies would start. And I remember, right before 1778 01:41:38.359 --> 01:41:40.880 the first day of Pennsyl Photography, I get this box 1779 01:41:40.880 --> 01:41:44.479 from Disney and I open it up and inside is 1780 01:41:44.520 --> 01:41:50.079 a red high heeled shoe that's also a telephone, right, 1781 01:41:50.239 --> 01:41:54.079 the old not rotaryd other ones, the push button. 1782 01:41:53.760 --> 01:41:57.720 Ones, touchtown they call, Yeah, the touchdown. 1783 01:41:57.359 --> 01:41:59.880 With the pad. I still have it somewhere. Yeah. That 1784 01:42:00.119 --> 01:42:04.079 was fun. So I guess to me, the continuation of 1785 01:42:04.119 --> 01:42:09.199 the story is that then apropos having everything happened to 1786 01:42:09.239 --> 01:42:13.560 you on the first time around, Right, get the job, 1787 01:42:13.680 --> 01:42:16.880 get the big break, get fired, get rewritten, have a 1788 01:42:17.000 --> 01:42:18.640 change from a drama to a comedy. 1789 01:42:19.279 --> 01:42:19.479 Right. 1790 01:42:20.119 --> 01:42:24.880 Then came the last piece, which was a WJA arbitration 1791 01:42:25.039 --> 01:42:28.000 to decide credit right. Are you familiar with the whole 1792 01:42:28.039 --> 01:42:28.920 arbitration world. 1793 01:42:29.760 --> 01:42:33.319 Yeah, yeah, I know, it's kind of murky sometimes as 1794 01:42:33.359 --> 01:42:36.520 far as how they make their decisions sometimes. 1795 01:42:36.560 --> 01:42:38.880 I mean, the point of it is that just to 1796 01:42:38.960 --> 01:42:42.479 explain to listeners whatever, is that we and the WGA 1797 01:42:43.159 --> 01:42:46.920 are responsible for the termination of credits and this became 1798 01:42:47.039 --> 01:42:51.079 our right, we want it in labor negotiations, strikes, whatever, 1799 01:42:51.319 --> 01:42:55.520 because back in the studio days of the forties, every 1800 01:42:55.640 --> 01:43:00.279 producer and his boyfriend girlfriend would want to put their 1801 01:43:00.359 --> 01:43:02.960 names on a script as a favor, and they could 1802 01:43:03.000 --> 01:43:06.079 just do it because they had that power. So we 1803 01:43:07.000 --> 01:43:10.359 won back the power to be able to determine whose 1804 01:43:10.399 --> 01:43:13.039 names would be on a script in order to avoid 1805 01:43:13.399 --> 01:43:20.119 that kind of corrupt practice. The Guild arbitration process is 1806 01:43:20.279 --> 01:43:22.840 you can only have a maximum of three writers on 1807 01:43:22.880 --> 01:43:25.640 a script. Now, when you see more than three names 1808 01:43:25.680 --> 01:43:29.800 on a script, they'll notice that there's writing teams. And 1809 01:43:29.840 --> 01:43:32.439 the way you know this is that their names are 1810 01:43:33.159 --> 01:43:36.960 separated by an amper sayand if it says David Aaron 1811 01:43:37.000 --> 01:43:40.039 Cone and Edward Taylor A and D, you know that 1812 01:43:40.119 --> 01:43:46.520 they wrote separately. So the arbitration process begins I get 1813 01:43:46.640 --> 01:43:51.680 sent the script of the production draft, which is the 1814 01:43:51.680 --> 01:43:54.840 final script, and then you also the guild sends out 1815 01:43:55.279 --> 01:43:57.800 all of the drafts. Everyone has to submit them. So 1816 01:43:57.840 --> 01:44:00.399 there's the Edward Taylor draft, there's the David Aaron conn draft. 1817 01:44:00.399 --> 01:44:02.560 I had more than one. I had re drafts. And 1818 01:44:02.600 --> 01:44:04.920 then there's the Nick Theld draft and the Jeff Canoe draft. 1819 01:44:06.359 --> 01:44:08.560 And then you read through them and then you write 1820 01:44:08.560 --> 01:44:11.960 a statement claiming like why you think you deserve credit? 1821 01:44:12.840 --> 01:44:15.600 But the stakes are really high, you know what I mean. 1822 01:44:16.840 --> 01:44:19.439 And I was a newbie writers. I didn't really know 1823 01:44:19.479 --> 01:44:23.319 too much about the process. Now I like advise other 1824 01:44:23.359 --> 01:44:26.079 writers who are going into a process because I've done 1825 01:44:26.119 --> 01:44:27.880 it so many times. I'm like, Okay, here's what you 1826 01:44:27.920 --> 01:44:31.840 need to know. And I remember this day very vividly. 1827 01:44:32.000 --> 01:44:37.239 It's a week before the arbitration letters are due. Then 1828 01:44:37.239 --> 01:44:40.239 I get a phone call. I pick up the phone. 1829 01:44:40.279 --> 01:44:42.279 This is pre self well, so you don't know what 1830 01:44:42.279 --> 01:44:45.840 it's calling, and Nick Thiel is on the line and 1831 01:44:45.880 --> 01:44:50.199 he goes, David, listen to me. If we all agree 1832 01:44:51.119 --> 01:44:54.319 on the credit right, you don't have to go to 1833 01:44:54.359 --> 01:44:57.920 an arbitration. If the three of us agree, you don't 1834 01:44:57.920 --> 01:45:00.880 have to get an arbitration. I'm like, I'm thinking to myself, 1835 01:45:01.479 --> 01:45:04.079 why would I do that? Maybe you don't deserve a credit. 1836 01:45:04.439 --> 01:45:06.279 And then he got like really dark on me. He 1837 01:45:06.399 --> 01:45:09.720 was like, dude, let me tell you, the middle writer 1838 01:45:10.119 --> 01:45:13.039 always gets squeezed out, so the chances are you're not 1839 01:45:13.079 --> 01:45:14.960 going to get a credit, so you should do this. 1840 01:45:15.439 --> 01:45:19.359 It's very strong arming me and I'm being naive and 1841 01:45:19.439 --> 01:45:23.520 also a little bit like that. So I was like, no, 1842 01:45:23.680 --> 01:45:26.079 I'm not doing that. We'll just go through the process 1843 01:45:26.159 --> 01:45:31.079 and whatever they decided. So that was that. Yeah, And 1844 01:45:31.079 --> 01:45:33.880 then I remember like in those days, you'd get a 1845 01:45:34.000 --> 01:45:37.359 letter in the mail saying the determination of credits has 1846 01:45:37.399 --> 01:45:41.760 been and there was screenplay by or I have to 1847 01:45:41.800 --> 01:45:47.159 look it up here does it say, yeah, screen story? 1848 01:45:48.199 --> 01:45:50.479 I think it's the three of us, Edward Taylor and 1849 01:45:50.600 --> 01:45:54.079 d David ernthone Andy Nick Deal, so all three of us. 1850 01:45:54.720 --> 01:45:57.239 And for me, I was kind of like in the aftermath, 1851 01:45:57.279 --> 01:46:00.000 I was like, maybe that's good that somebody else is 1852 01:46:00.119 --> 01:46:03.039 name was after me, because this is not my work. 1853 01:46:03.359 --> 01:46:05.319 It doesn't represent the best of my work. Some of 1854 01:46:05.359 --> 01:46:08.159 my work is definitely in there in the arbitration. You 1855 01:46:08.199 --> 01:46:10.640 have to prove that like thirty three percent of it 1856 01:46:10.720 --> 01:46:14.279 is yours, whatever that means. Yeah, so you contributed a 1857 01:46:14.359 --> 01:46:17.239 character or the dialogue or structure, those things all there's 1858 01:46:17.279 --> 01:46:22.039 different qualifications for it. So that was my experience, and 1859 01:46:22.199 --> 01:46:25.199 to this day when I tell when I teach screenwriting, 1860 01:46:25.199 --> 01:46:28.960 which I do sometimes or talk to mentoring young people 1861 01:46:29.119 --> 01:46:32.840 who are entering the business, I'm like, in a way, 1862 01:46:33.239 --> 01:46:37.279 having the full experience the first time prepared me for 1863 01:46:37.359 --> 01:46:37.880 my career. 1864 01:46:38.680 --> 01:46:42.239 I bet, yeah, yeah, you went through the ringer, Yeah, 1865 01:46:42.800 --> 01:46:45.159 yeah it was. Did you get invited to the premiere? 1866 01:46:46.439 --> 01:46:48.840 I remember was one time? 1867 01:46:48.920 --> 01:46:49.279 I up. 1868 01:46:50.079 --> 01:46:52.600 I can remember the other my other movies premierees. I 1869 01:46:52.640 --> 01:46:57.159 definitely remember devil Ze, Friday Lines, even more recent ones 1870 01:46:57.159 --> 01:47:00.600 like American Underdog. But I'm thinking I'm must have been 1871 01:47:00.880 --> 01:47:04.479 because I was really friends by this time with John 1872 01:47:04.520 --> 01:47:07.720 Marsh and with Jeff Louriy. I actually got invited to 1873 01:47:07.800 --> 01:47:12.079 Jeff Lurie's wedding and was at his bachelor party, which 1874 01:47:12.319 --> 01:47:16.119 I won't talk about, but I'll never forget. Yeah, he 1875 01:47:16.159 --> 01:47:19.439 and Christina since divorced and whatever. He's a billionaire and 1876 01:47:20.199 --> 01:47:23.720 good time him. He's funny guy. So I don't I 1877 01:47:23.840 --> 01:47:28.159 actually don't remember a premier party. Sorry. I do remember 1878 01:47:28.159 --> 01:47:31.359 one thing though, the weekend that the movie opened, and 1879 01:47:31.399 --> 01:47:35.079 this is lessons from a young screenwriter's point of view, 1880 01:47:35.800 --> 01:47:38.920 is that I had a careery dear friend of mine, 1881 01:47:39.119 --> 01:47:42.399 she was getting married that same weekend, and it was 1882 01:47:42.439 --> 01:47:48.880 in Cleveland, Ohio. So I went to Cleveland and I 1883 01:47:48.960 --> 01:47:51.039 got to the airport and I don't know if I 1884 01:47:51.079 --> 01:47:54.680 had to take a train or elevated or whatever it was, 1885 01:47:55.000 --> 01:47:58.960 but I remember I'm in the train. I'm going to 1886 01:47:59.039 --> 01:48:01.159 wherever it was you lived on in the suburbs, Jake 1887 01:48:01.239 --> 01:48:04.039 Or Heights, and I'm going there and it stops at 1888 01:48:04.079 --> 01:48:08.279 the stop and I see the posters on the side, 1889 01:48:08.680 --> 01:48:11.399 and that was very exciting, and that was really exciting 1890 01:48:11.439 --> 01:48:13.399 for me as a first time screenwriter. 1891 01:48:14.720 --> 01:48:16.680 When was the first time you saw the movie or 1892 01:48:16.720 --> 01:48:17.640 did you ever see it? 1893 01:48:18.159 --> 01:48:21.039 John invited me to some of the test screenings, so 1894 01:48:21.079 --> 01:48:25.720 they were still tweaking things. So I went to remember 1895 01:48:25.880 --> 01:48:29.119 going with him to this test screening in the theater 1896 01:48:29.199 --> 01:48:31.119 in Sherman Notes, which was like right next to where 1897 01:48:31.199 --> 01:48:32.880 I was living at the time, so I literally could 1898 01:48:32.920 --> 01:48:37.239 walk to the theater and that was cool to be 1899 01:48:37.319 --> 01:48:39.960 in that experience, and I remember turning around and seeing 1900 01:48:40.479 --> 01:48:45.000 Katzenberg and oh god, who was running Disney at the time, 1901 01:48:45.640 --> 01:48:48.920 because he was in charge of TO. There was someone 1902 01:48:48.920 --> 01:48:52.399 else above like you can't remember who was, but all 1903 01:48:52.439 --> 01:48:56.000 the big wigs were there taking notes and stuff like that. 1904 01:48:57.199 --> 01:48:59.880 And then we got to see to let me stay 1905 01:49:00.079 --> 01:49:02.720 in for the Q and A listen to the focus 1906 01:49:02.800 --> 01:49:05.439 groups when they asked them questions and what they liked, 1907 01:49:05.479 --> 01:49:06.279 what they didn't like. 1908 01:49:06.359 --> 01:49:07.359 So that was a. 1909 01:49:07.720 --> 01:49:12.039 Great learning experience, and then that led to one more. 1910 01:49:12.600 --> 01:49:17.680 My last sort of involvement with the movie prior to 1911 01:49:17.720 --> 01:49:22.520 its release was that based on the test scores, they 1912 01:49:22.600 --> 01:49:25.199 realized that audiences were having a bit of a hard 1913 01:49:25.239 --> 01:49:28.920 time understanding because it's like detective stuff and the clues 1914 01:49:29.000 --> 01:49:32.000 and all that kind of stuff. So they came up 1915 01:49:32.039 --> 01:49:38.640 with this brilliant, slash desperate idea of adding voiceover right, 1916 01:49:38.720 --> 01:49:42.399 the old Harry the explainer thing, right. And so what 1917 01:49:42.439 --> 01:49:47.279 they did, in fairness to Disney, they hired all of us, 1918 01:49:47.720 --> 01:49:50.600 all of the writers who worked on it, for one 1919 01:49:50.720 --> 01:49:58.560 day to write potential voiceovers for the movie to be 1920 01:49:58.720 --> 01:50:03.520 considered right. And the irony of that is that I 1921 01:50:03.560 --> 01:50:05.800 remember my agent calling me and telling me that since 1922 01:50:05.960 --> 01:50:09.319 seven I said, what's the page. She goes, They're going 1923 01:50:09.399 --> 01:50:13.000 to pay you gild minimum for a polish, which was 1924 01:50:13.039 --> 01:50:16.399 the same four thousand dollars that I made to write 1925 01:50:16.399 --> 01:50:19.439 the entire rewrite the entire screenplay a year and a 1926 01:50:19.479 --> 01:50:23.119 half earlier. I was like, this feels like I could 1927 01:50:23.159 --> 01:50:25.720 get used to this. Payday four grand a day. That's good. 1928 01:50:25.840 --> 01:50:28.840 And then nineteen ninety one that was like a lot 1929 01:50:28.880 --> 01:50:29.319 of money. 1930 01:50:29.880 --> 01:50:31.840 What was it like when you finally got to see 1931 01:50:31.840 --> 01:50:34.039 the film? I mean you talked about that cut and 1932 01:50:34.079 --> 01:50:35.960 paste kind of thing. Are you just like, oh, well 1933 01:50:35.960 --> 01:50:38.399 that's mine and then you wait another ten minutes, Oh 1934 01:50:38.439 --> 01:50:39.319 that's my line too. 1935 01:50:40.079 --> 01:50:45.560 An interesting aspect of the whole arbitration thing is that 1936 01:50:46.680 --> 01:50:52.720 credit is based first and foremost on structure and plot. 1937 01:50:52.920 --> 01:50:56.680 Dialogue has the least amount of value in determining what 1938 01:50:56.800 --> 01:50:59.760 percent of a script is yours and for an audience. 1939 01:51:00.399 --> 01:51:03.840 Usually most people who go to movies think of dialogue 1940 01:51:03.840 --> 01:51:06.720 as the whole thing, But in reality, as we know, 1941 01:51:07.760 --> 01:51:13.119 xt structure, how you plot it, and introducing new characters 1942 01:51:13.119 --> 01:51:16.319 and characterizations, those are the things that carry the most 1943 01:51:16.359 --> 01:51:21.680 weight in arbitration. So for me, it was clear like 1944 01:51:21.800 --> 01:51:25.239 a lot of the structural stuff. I could see my 1945 01:51:25.399 --> 01:51:28.600 work in the dialogue. There were a few lines. I 1946 01:51:28.640 --> 01:51:31.399 don't remember what they are today, but I remember going, Okay, 1947 01:51:31.399 --> 01:51:33.960 that was great to see Kathleen Turner deliver a line. 1948 01:51:34.159 --> 01:51:37.640 That's always just a thrill from that standpoint. And I 1949 01:51:37.640 --> 01:51:41.000 do remember also I did go to the set a 1950 01:51:41.039 --> 01:51:43.479 few times, not just the first day, but they were 1951 01:51:43.479 --> 01:51:48.239 shooting in the Culver Studios in Culver City, and I 1952 01:51:48.239 --> 01:51:51.359 remember going and seeing because it was cool to see 1953 01:51:51.359 --> 01:51:54.039 the house that they built, which was the ice house, 1954 01:51:54.119 --> 01:51:56.560 and all that kind of stuff is always fun. I 1955 01:51:56.600 --> 01:51:59.079 got to hang out there a bit as well, so 1956 01:51:59.119 --> 01:52:02.920 when I saw it, it was like, Okay, it makes you 1957 01:52:03.039 --> 01:52:06.760 hungry to want to have more of the same, but 1958 01:52:06.840 --> 01:52:07.439 more control. 1959 01:52:08.199 --> 01:52:11.600 So ultimately, did this open doors for you? It must 1960 01:52:11.640 --> 01:52:14.560 have paved the way for some more projects. I would 1961 01:52:14.560 --> 01:52:16.000 imagine it. 1962 01:52:16.000 --> 01:52:20.960 Did, and in a way that maybe is less obvious 1963 01:52:21.399 --> 01:52:23.720 in terms of like how careers work and stuff like that. 1964 01:52:25.279 --> 01:52:28.439 And I would say the caveat to what I'm going 1965 01:52:28.479 --> 01:52:31.279 to say is that they don't know necessarily that these 1966 01:52:31.319 --> 01:52:35.720 same rules apply because our industry has changed so dramatically 1967 01:52:36.199 --> 01:52:41.039 since the nineties. It's just a completely different animal. But 1968 01:52:41.680 --> 01:52:47.600 in nineteen ninety one, when the movie came out, the 1969 01:52:47.800 --> 01:52:50.560 fact that I got a credit, and that's what people said, 1970 01:52:50.640 --> 01:52:53.800 just get a credit. It's going to open doors for you. 1971 01:52:55.640 --> 01:52:59.720 Maybe about six months later or maybe three months, have 1972 01:52:59.800 --> 01:53:02.000 to move came out, I get a call to go 1973 01:53:02.039 --> 01:53:05.600 in and meet it. Imagine in films Brian Grazier run 1974 01:53:05.720 --> 01:53:11.359 Hours Company, and the executive there was interested in meeting 1975 01:53:11.399 --> 01:53:13.800 with me because my agent had sent her a script 1976 01:53:13.800 --> 01:53:18.479 that I wrote, but also because I was a credited writer, 1977 01:53:19.119 --> 01:53:20.680 do you know what I mean? And that put me 1978 01:53:20.760 --> 01:53:25.520 into a different class of a different pool I shouldn't 1979 01:53:25.520 --> 01:53:28.239 say a pool of writers, so I could be considered 1980 01:53:28.239 --> 01:53:33.199 for other things, right, And so this is a good 1981 01:53:33.199 --> 01:53:37.359 story in the sense that so this executive in those 1982 01:53:37.439 --> 01:53:40.159 days when they liked your writing and they felt like 1983 01:53:40.199 --> 01:53:42.520 you had a voice and the kind of stuff, they'd 1984 01:53:42.560 --> 01:53:45.159 invite you in. And then you have a general meeting, right, 1985 01:53:45.319 --> 01:53:48.600 which most of the time didn't lead to anything, but 1986 01:53:48.680 --> 01:53:53.439 sometimes could. So it's kind of like salesmen showing their wares, 1987 01:53:53.840 --> 01:53:55.800 Like they ask you what you've got, and they tell 1988 01:53:55.800 --> 01:54:00.720 you what they've got. And so she said, look the 1989 01:54:00.720 --> 01:54:04.479 projects that we have. See if anything else would interest you, 1990 01:54:05.119 --> 01:54:08.680 and she went down a list of projects. I said, 1991 01:54:08.720 --> 01:54:10.960 there's this, and there's that, and there's that. I'm listening 1992 01:54:11.000 --> 01:54:12.720 to all of them. And it's a little bit full 1993 01:54:12.760 --> 01:54:15.680 of myself at the time because I just thought, I 1994 01:54:15.720 --> 01:54:19.000 don't know whatever again being young and thinking that I 1995 01:54:19.039 --> 01:54:24.239 can do this. But she listened all that. I was like, no, 1996 01:54:24.439 --> 01:54:26.800 you know not, none of those really or interest to me. 1997 01:54:27.560 --> 01:54:30.439 And then she came up, here's one, but I don't 1998 01:54:30.479 --> 01:54:32.960 think there's any way This one is one you're not 1999 01:54:32.960 --> 01:54:37.199 going to get because Alan Pecula is attached as producer 2000 01:54:38.640 --> 01:54:43.079 and at the time, Pakola had just finished Sophie's Choice, 2001 01:54:43.399 --> 01:54:49.640 nominated for All the Stuff of course, All the President's Men, Clue, 2002 01:54:49.800 --> 01:54:52.239 Parallax View, all of the great movies that Alan nade, 2003 01:54:53.640 --> 01:54:57.119 and so she goes, oh, yeah, that book. That book 2004 01:54:57.319 --> 01:55:01.720 was Friday Lights, right, it was about to come out. 2005 01:55:02.000 --> 01:55:06.039 They had Alan had a really great eye for good material, 2006 01:55:06.279 --> 01:55:08.760 like he was a producer before he was a director. 2007 01:55:08.840 --> 01:55:11.640 Hed he won an Oscar, his only oscar actually, for 2008 01:55:11.760 --> 01:55:16.760 To Kill a Mockingbird, which she produced, so he had 2009 01:55:16.760 --> 01:55:21.960 the right to Buzz's books. And she pooh pooed. She goes, 2010 01:55:23.159 --> 01:55:25.359 I'll give you the book, but I don't think there's 2011 01:55:25.359 --> 01:55:27.920 any way you're ever any of the meeting with Alan, right, 2012 01:55:28.399 --> 01:55:32.439 And so I went home read the book. I was like, 2013 01:55:32.560 --> 01:55:35.680 oh my god, this is just perfect. I love this material. 2014 01:55:35.720 --> 01:55:39.079 This is incredible. My agent was pushing to see it. 2015 01:55:40.119 --> 01:55:44.439 We could get a meeting, And what happened was she 2016 01:55:44.600 --> 01:55:48.399 sent out the writing sample, which was the same sample 2017 01:55:49.039 --> 01:55:52.359 that I was using. It was an indie kind of film. 2018 01:55:52.880 --> 01:55:55.760 It was called Go Down Moses, was about an Israeli 2019 01:55:56.279 --> 01:56:01.039 limo driver who befriends this black radio dispatcher who's also 2020 01:56:01.159 --> 01:56:03.000 like a rapper on the side. It was like a 2021 01:56:03.000 --> 01:56:05.640 whole indie film that you'd want to see in the eighties. 2022 01:56:06.479 --> 01:56:08.640 But everyone liked it. Helped me get an agent. It 2023 01:56:08.720 --> 01:56:11.600 had a distinct voice, all that kind of stuff. So 2024 01:56:11.640 --> 01:56:16.439 she sent Alan my draft to Go Down Moses, and 2025 01:56:16.479 --> 01:56:21.600 then she calls me up maybe three or four weeks later, 2026 01:56:21.640 --> 01:56:24.359 and she goes, wow, I'm surprised, but cool. It was 2027 01:56:24.399 --> 01:56:27.600 to meet with you. So that's how that happened. 2028 01:56:27.600 --> 01:56:28.439 And then. 2029 01:56:29.680 --> 01:56:32.800 That meeting to p and I was just like I 2030 01:56:32.920 --> 01:56:36.159 was in odd. Literally. Clute was a movie that I 2031 01:56:36.199 --> 01:56:39.239 remember seeing that maybe love films you know what I mean, 2032 01:56:39.760 --> 01:56:41.479 if you ever want to do a great episode, dude 2033 01:56:41.479 --> 01:56:44.359 about that movie, because that might be just anyway. So 2034 01:56:45.600 --> 01:56:47.960 I'm just like over the Moon. I can't believe I'm 2035 01:56:47.960 --> 01:56:50.600 actually going to meet like one of my idols. I'm 2036 01:56:50.640 --> 01:56:54.760 just a little bit very nervous about it. And I 2037 01:56:54.840 --> 01:56:58.279 get the instructions to meet him. He's coming to town 2038 01:56:58.720 --> 01:57:02.399 to meet with writers, and he's going to meet you 2039 01:57:02.520 --> 01:57:07.359 in his like suite at the Four Seasons right Beverly Hills. 2040 01:57:07.560 --> 01:57:10.359 They like, okay, I've never been to the Four Seasons. 2041 01:57:10.520 --> 01:57:13.880 The whole thing is whatever. So I dressed my sort 2042 01:57:13.880 --> 01:57:19.800 of casual slash dress the writer artists clothes, leave my 2043 01:57:19.960 --> 01:57:23.560 wife and two kids at home, and go step into 2044 01:57:23.560 --> 01:57:28.039 this alternative, alternate universe of the Four Seasons. And I 2045 01:57:28.760 --> 01:57:31.199 get up to the call and they say, yeah, come 2046 01:57:31.239 --> 01:57:34.800 on up and knock on the door. Alan opens the door. 2047 01:57:35.319 --> 01:57:39.960 Alan was very urbane guy, grew up East Side to 2048 01:57:40.880 --> 01:57:44.800 New York City. He almost had his own like accent 2049 01:57:44.960 --> 01:57:47.600 in his English. It was like it wasn't like a 2050 01:57:47.640 --> 01:57:50.880 New Yorker, active was something old, more refined. He's just 2051 01:57:50.880 --> 01:57:55.760 a very cool guy anyway. But he's in socks. He's 2052 01:57:55.760 --> 01:57:57.920 not wearing shoes, and then he tells me that that's 2053 01:57:58.119 --> 01:58:00.880 that I learned afterwards he would direct all of his 2054 01:58:00.920 --> 01:58:04.399 films in his socks. He just felt comfortable. You didn't 2055 01:58:04.439 --> 01:58:07.760 like wearing shoes, so on set he used to directing 2056 01:58:07.880 --> 01:58:11.239 Dustin Hoffmann, Readford, Meryl Street. He's words socks where we 2057 01:58:11.359 --> 01:58:16.479 used to laugh out anyway, and I sit down and 2058 01:58:16.520 --> 01:58:19.880 he starts talking to me about Go Down, Moses, and 2059 01:58:19.920 --> 01:58:21.920 like how much he really loved it and there was 2060 01:58:22.000 --> 01:58:24.960 just a real grittiness to it and loved the voice 2061 01:58:25.119 --> 01:58:27.880 and love this and that was just really and we 2062 01:58:28.000 --> 01:58:31.439 just right away got into this sort of deeper conversation 2063 01:58:31.560 --> 01:58:36.279 about movies and about script and stuff, which was thrilling 2064 01:58:36.399 --> 01:58:42.000 for me. And then I pitched him my take on 2065 01:58:42.079 --> 01:58:46.840 how I would approach doing Friday Night Lights. That's funny 2066 01:58:47.079 --> 01:58:50.840 in the retrospect now, I made like two football movies 2067 01:58:50.880 --> 01:58:54.000 and a volleyball movie and then like go to Sports 2068 01:58:54.039 --> 01:58:59.239 Guy for whatever that's worth in the pigeonholing that Hollywood 2069 01:58:59.279 --> 01:59:01.319 sometimes does to us, but I'll take it. 2070 01:59:01.399 --> 01:59:01.920 I'm okay. 2071 01:59:02.920 --> 01:59:06.520 But at the time for me, that the inspiration for 2072 01:59:07.159 --> 01:59:10.239 the movie was Last Picture Show, because that was the 2073 01:59:10.279 --> 01:59:13.720 movie that just very much influenced me, and also had 2074 01:59:13.760 --> 01:59:19.399 that element of Jeff Bridges and Timothy Hutton. They were 2075 01:59:19.439 --> 01:59:21.279 like on the high school football team. There was even 2076 01:59:21.279 --> 01:59:24.880 a scene where they played high school football in Last 2077 01:59:24.880 --> 01:59:28.079 Picture Show. So I talked a lot about that and 2078 01:59:28.119 --> 01:59:32.239 all that, and Allen responded it was great. There was 2079 01:59:32.239 --> 01:59:35.079 a moment where he like stepped out he was the 2080 01:59:35.119 --> 01:59:39.760 rest or whatever, and so being a little inquisitive because 2081 01:59:39.800 --> 01:59:41.600 his seat was sitting on this chair next to me, 2082 01:59:41.640 --> 01:59:46.319 and there was like a pad of paper with his 2083 01:59:46.399 --> 01:59:50.600 appointments for the day, right, and so I saw the 2084 01:59:50.840 --> 01:59:53.920 list of the writers that he was reading with, and 2085 01:59:53.960 --> 01:59:57.239 it was like all the A writers in Hollywood at 2086 01:59:57.239 --> 02:00:00.199 the time, like all these names that would just be like. 2087 02:00:00.239 --> 02:00:02.680 I was like, oh my god, there's just no way 2088 02:00:03.159 --> 02:00:06.119 this is never going to happen. But I was still 2089 02:00:06.640 --> 02:00:11.319 happy to be there. Came back, he finished up and 2090 02:00:11.359 --> 02:00:15.039 then said goodbye. I walked out, and I thought, Okay, 2091 02:00:15.079 --> 02:00:17.000 that was a great experience. I'm just happy that I 2092 02:00:17.000 --> 02:00:22.279 got to meet Allan. And maybe a month goes by 2093 02:00:23.199 --> 02:00:26.319 and we lived in Venice at the time, where I 2094 02:00:26.439 --> 02:00:29.000 just moved back to and I'm out in the backyard 2095 02:00:29.039 --> 02:00:33.000 and I had this wine barrel that was my office. 2096 02:00:33.119 --> 02:00:35.680 It was literally he turned it into an office because 2097 02:00:35.720 --> 02:00:38.600 the landlord had this made this structure out of a 2098 02:00:38.640 --> 02:00:41.479 wine barrel that he called He called it the cone 2099 02:00:41.479 --> 02:00:43.600 House because the top was shaded up like a cone. 2100 02:00:43.800 --> 02:00:45.319 We went to rent the house. I was like, oh, 2101 02:00:45.359 --> 02:00:47.880 the cone house in the back, that's perfect, I'll take it. 2102 02:00:48.359 --> 02:00:50.199 So I was out and back inside of the Cone 2103 02:00:50.199 --> 02:00:52.520 House and I had a little extension of my phone 2104 02:00:52.560 --> 02:00:56.159 out there, and the phone rings and it's Alan. I 2105 02:00:56.159 --> 02:00:58.039 haven't talked to him since. Then he goes and he 2106 02:00:58.079 --> 02:01:00.680 doesn't say no one told me that this was going 2107 02:01:00.760 --> 02:01:03.800 to happen or that whatever. He just went, so we 2108 02:01:03.840 --> 02:01:06.600 need to come out to New York maybe the week 2109 02:01:06.680 --> 02:01:09.439 of the twenty first. Will that worked for you? And 2110 02:01:09.479 --> 02:01:13.560 I'm like, wait what? And then it was came clear 2111 02:01:13.600 --> 02:01:17.119 to me in the middle of the conversation that I 2112 02:01:17.119 --> 02:01:20.359 had gotten the job. So that's my very long answer 2113 02:01:20.439 --> 02:01:23.720 to did this oupen doors? Were you? Absolutely well? 2114 02:01:23.720 --> 02:01:27.039 I seem to remember, didn't be Coola also direct the 2115 02:01:27.279 --> 02:01:28.000 Devil Zone. 2116 02:01:28.399 --> 02:01:30.920 Oh yeah. I wrote three scripts for him, two of 2117 02:01:30.960 --> 02:01:31.640 which became a. 2118 02:01:32.159 --> 02:01:35.880 That's amazing, But Devil' Zone came out before Friday Night Lights. 2119 02:01:36.000 --> 02:01:36.520 It did. 2120 02:01:36.960 --> 02:01:41.079 It did, was that one of those long protracted things. 2121 02:01:40.720 --> 02:01:45.359 For thirteen year sentel, It got made and by that time, 2122 02:01:45.680 --> 02:01:49.239 tragically Alan had died in that crazy car crash that 2123 02:01:49.319 --> 02:01:49.800 he died in. 2124 02:01:50.640 --> 02:01:54.119 Yeah, Cauln, you tell me a little bit about your 2125 02:01:54.199 --> 02:01:56.399 Navigating Hollywood course. Are you still teaching that? 2126 02:01:57.439 --> 02:01:58.159 Yes, I am. 2127 02:01:58.600 --> 02:02:01.199 I've been a little bit on aatis. It was something 2128 02:02:01.199 --> 02:02:05.640 that I started up during COVID. But the whole point 2129 02:02:05.680 --> 02:02:08.960 of it was and is that I just feel like 2130 02:02:09.800 --> 02:02:13.800 I've spent thirty plus years in this business and the 2131 02:02:13.840 --> 02:02:17.359 things that they don't teach you in film school are 2132 02:02:17.399 --> 02:02:20.880 exactly the things that you need to have a career, 2133 02:02:21.479 --> 02:02:24.359 you know what I mean. So really to learn how 2134 02:02:24.359 --> 02:02:27.800 to pitch, it's not something that necessarily although some of 2135 02:02:27.840 --> 02:02:31.560 the more well known programs now like USC and UCLA 2136 02:02:32.359 --> 02:02:39.159 have pitching segments to them, but just breaking story, giving notes, 2137 02:02:39.520 --> 02:02:43.000 getting notes, the things that are really the sort of 2138 02:02:43.039 --> 02:02:47.159 bread and butter of how you have and then maintain 2139 02:02:47.199 --> 02:02:52.039 a career. Those are things that I address in the course. 2140 02:02:52.479 --> 02:02:55.880 I love teaching, and that's one of those things where 2141 02:02:57.319 --> 02:03:01.319 you don't really necessarily know how much you know until 2142 02:03:01.359 --> 02:03:02.680 you map it. 2143 02:03:03.079 --> 02:03:03.720 Do you know what I mean? 2144 02:03:04.239 --> 02:03:06.119 And so during COVID, when I was seeing that, I 2145 02:03:06.119 --> 02:03:08.199 started writing and I was like, oh wow, I could 2146 02:03:08.199 --> 02:03:09.960 talk about this. Oh no, and I could talk about that. 2147 02:03:10.920 --> 02:03:13.479 And then so I think the big part of the course, 2148 02:03:14.039 --> 02:03:17.000 one very big element of it is just having my 2149 02:03:17.039 --> 02:03:21.880 students ask questions, just wide open and there's a lot 2150 02:03:21.920 --> 02:03:25.319 of I think there's a lot to be gleaned from 2151 02:03:25.439 --> 02:03:29.439 the answers, and also things that you can really specifically 2152 02:03:29.520 --> 02:03:33.680 learn and work on so that you can have a 2153 02:03:33.680 --> 02:03:37.640 better career, because access is the big issue there as well. 2154 02:03:37.960 --> 02:03:39.880 I mean, that's the hardest thing for people to get. 2155 02:03:40.439 --> 02:03:42.079 Do you teach them that the middle guy and the 2156 02:03:42.199 --> 02:03:43.720 arbitration gets squeezed out. 2157 02:03:44.600 --> 02:03:47.319 I actually do talk about arbitrations, and it's like an 2158 02:03:47.359 --> 02:03:50.680 advanced degree side of it. And by the way, with 2159 02:03:50.720 --> 02:03:53.560 regard to that, I kind of at some point in 2160 02:03:54.119 --> 02:03:58.520 after maybe yeah, after find Out Lights came out, I 2161 02:03:58.640 --> 02:04:02.439 was like, I don't want to rewrite other writers anymore. 2162 02:04:02.920 --> 02:04:05.760 It just feels not morally the right thing to do. 2163 02:04:06.600 --> 02:04:09.760 Pretty much since then, you know, all the things I do, 2164 02:04:10.880 --> 02:04:15.239 I'm the first writer, and sure I still get fired 2165 02:04:15.319 --> 02:04:18.119 and I still get rewritten, and that's the business, I said, 2166 02:04:18.119 --> 02:04:21.319 it's a little easier to live with all these years later, 2167 02:04:21.359 --> 02:04:26.640 but still not. But at least I know as first 2168 02:04:26.640 --> 02:04:31.000 writer that I have a shot of delivering the script 2169 02:04:31.439 --> 02:04:35.039 that I feel is the best representation of that material, 2170 02:04:35.119 --> 02:04:38.039 and whatever happens to it after that, that's speed. 2171 02:04:38.800 --> 02:04:40.079 What are you working on right now? 2172 02:04:40.720 --> 02:04:44.960 A couple of things. I am adapting a great book 2173 02:04:45.800 --> 02:04:48.800 called Running the Amazon by guy named Joe Kine, which 2174 02:04:48.840 --> 02:04:52.039 is the true story of a crazy group of ten 2175 02:04:52.119 --> 02:04:56.359 individuals who decided they were going to kayak the length 2176 02:04:56.359 --> 02:05:00.920 of the Amazon River from source to se four thousand, 2177 02:05:01.079 --> 02:05:05.039 two hundred miles, and they did this nineteen eighty five, 2178 02:05:05.640 --> 02:05:11.039 before you had geo mapping and telephones and all that stuff. 2179 02:05:11.479 --> 02:05:16.399 They went down canyons in Peru that had never been 2180 02:05:16.520 --> 02:05:24.279 successfully traversed before, ran into Peruvian gorillaz who almost killed them, 2181 02:05:24.359 --> 02:05:28.359 shot at them, and took them prisoner Colombian drug dealers, 2182 02:05:29.319 --> 02:05:32.199 And in the middle of it, they ended up having 2183 02:05:32.239 --> 02:05:35.279 a mutiny among the crew because there was one guy 2184 02:05:35.439 --> 02:05:37.479 who wanted to go in this direction, the other one 2185 02:05:37.680 --> 02:05:41.600 in the other. And so Joe Kane, who wrote the book, 2186 02:05:41.600 --> 02:05:43.960 who was coming along just to be the guy who 2187 02:05:44.720 --> 02:05:48.159 could document the thing and make the guy who hired 2188 02:05:48.239 --> 02:05:51.680 him look great. The one who they mutinied against ended 2189 02:05:51.760 --> 02:05:55.000 up being one of two of the men who finished 2190 02:05:55.039 --> 02:05:57.600 it kayaking. You had never really kayak before, and he 2191 02:05:57.680 --> 02:06:02.399 was trained by the other guys who was champion kayaker 2192 02:06:02.399 --> 02:06:05.079 from Poland and they made it all the way to 2193 02:06:05.079 --> 02:06:09.119 the Atlantic Ocean. Yeah, it's great story doing that. And 2194 02:06:09.399 --> 02:06:16.880 another front developing a TV series that Sony with Blake Griffin, 2195 02:06:17.359 --> 02:06:20.920 the NBA player as a new company with Ryan Khalil 2196 02:06:21.199 --> 02:06:25.119 x NFL player called Mortal Media, and we're developing high 2197 02:06:25.119 --> 02:06:29.560 school show about elite athletes that takes all of the 2198 02:06:29.600 --> 02:06:35.359 best football, basketball, tennis, golf, you name it into one 2199 02:06:35.840 --> 02:06:39.319 high school based on the IMG Academy, which does this 2200 02:06:39.439 --> 02:06:41.560 in Florida. In a way, it's kind of like a 2201 02:06:41.560 --> 02:06:45.239 superhero show in a funny way, because they're all best 2202 02:06:45.279 --> 02:06:47.520 at what they do, but then when they're together with 2203 02:06:47.560 --> 02:06:49.560 everyone else, they're just ordinary. 2204 02:06:49.880 --> 02:06:51.920 Mister Cohen, thank you so much for your time. This 2205 02:06:51.960 --> 02:06:53.119 was so great talking with you. 2206 02:06:54.079 --> 02:06:57.079 Absolutely, David. Please, I'm not with tikon to anyone but 2207 02:06:57.159 --> 02:06:59.600 my former high school teachers or whoever does that. 2208 02:07:02.359 --> 02:07:04.760 You've done so much over the years. I'd love to 2209 02:07:04.800 --> 02:07:06.159 know how you even got into it. 2210 02:07:07.079 --> 02:07:09.960 I was in Maryland, I lived, grew up in Maryland, 2211 02:07:10.039 --> 02:07:14.079 graduated from University of Maryland, and wanted to be a 2212 02:07:14.119 --> 02:07:16.760 screenwriter in TV or movies and didn't know how to 2213 02:07:16.800 --> 02:07:19.520 do it. And I read an article in back when 2214 02:07:19.560 --> 02:07:23.079 there were magazines, Newsweek magazine. They said all the big 2215 02:07:23.359 --> 02:07:26.039 players in Hollywood came out of the USC or UCLA 2216 02:07:26.199 --> 02:07:29.800 Film School. So I applied to both, got rejected by both, 2217 02:07:30.239 --> 02:07:34.520 but luckily for me, USC was starting a brand new 2218 02:07:34.520 --> 02:07:38.239 graduate program in professional writing where they taught everything from 2219 02:07:38.479 --> 02:07:42.000 novel writing to advertising, everything, and they were desperate for 2220 02:07:42.079 --> 02:07:45.760 people because they just started, so they accepted me. And 2221 02:07:45.840 --> 02:07:48.439 I was a waiter at this there's a chain of 2222 02:07:48.520 --> 02:07:51.119 restaurants called Hamburger Hamlet. Back then, they don't think it 2223 02:07:51.279 --> 02:07:54.159 doesn't exist anymore. It was all over the country and 2224 02:07:54.199 --> 02:07:56.920 I got a job waiting tables there and I made 2225 02:07:56.960 --> 02:07:59.399 friends with another waiter who also wanted to be a writer, 2226 02:08:00.119 --> 02:08:02.479 and he got a meeting on a TV show at 2227 02:08:02.479 --> 02:08:05.039 the time, which was the number one TV show called 2228 02:08:05.079 --> 02:08:07.560 eight Is Enough and said, hey, you want to go 2229 02:08:07.600 --> 02:08:10.279 with me? And I said yeah, and we sold them 2230 02:08:10.600 --> 02:08:13.239 and I did and started. 2231 02:08:13.720 --> 02:08:16.520 What was your role when it came to Voyagers? Because 2232 02:08:16.560 --> 02:08:18.800 that was a favorite of mine. When I was growing up. 2233 02:08:19.680 --> 02:08:21.720 I had worked on a show called fall Guy, which 2234 02:08:21.760 --> 02:08:24.520 was a big hit at the time, and the producer, 2235 02:08:24.880 --> 02:08:27.800 one of the producers from that show got fired and 2236 02:08:27.880 --> 02:08:30.479 went to Universal and got on Voyagers, and he told 2237 02:08:30.520 --> 02:08:34.600 the showrunner Jim Perriot, you got to hire this guy, Nick, 2238 02:08:35.520 --> 02:08:37.840 and I was ready to leave Fall Guy. I like 2239 02:08:37.920 --> 02:08:40.359 Glenn Larson as a person, I didn't like working for him, 2240 02:08:40.920 --> 02:08:42.840 and so he brought me over to Voyagers and I 2241 02:08:43.680 --> 02:08:46.840 was this executive story consultant writer, and then I produced 2242 02:08:46.840 --> 02:08:49.560 a couple of the episode. It was so much fun 2243 02:08:49.600 --> 02:08:53.359 to write. I learned so much about history researching each episode. 2244 02:08:53.479 --> 02:08:54.079 It was great. 2245 02:08:54.800 --> 02:08:56.680 What was the move like for you to go from 2246 02:08:56.720 --> 02:08:57.960 television to movies? 2247 02:08:58.800 --> 02:09:03.199 I had done an overall deal at Warner Brothers after 2248 02:09:03.399 --> 02:09:07.720 I had done Magnum Pi. I was hot after Magnum 2249 02:09:07.760 --> 02:09:09.319 p I because it was such a big hit. I 2250 02:09:09.399 --> 02:09:11.479 got an overall deal with Warner Brothers and they put 2251 02:09:11.520 --> 02:09:14.239 me on two really bad shows that I hated, and 2252 02:09:14.359 --> 02:09:18.359 during a break a hiatus between after the last one, 2253 02:09:18.520 --> 02:09:20.279 I decided I got to get out of TV. So 2254 02:09:20.359 --> 02:09:23.720 I wrote a spec movie. It got a lot of attention, 2255 02:09:23.840 --> 02:09:25.840 never got made, but it got me a lot of work, 2256 02:09:26.039 --> 02:09:29.600 and I got hired by Paramount to rewrite a movie, 2257 02:09:29.600 --> 02:09:31.840 which ended up being The Experts, which is like a 2258 02:09:31.880 --> 02:09:35.800 cult hit but not a very good movie. At the time, 2259 02:09:36.640 --> 02:09:38.760 being a movie writer was like you were on the 2260 02:09:38.800 --> 02:09:42.079 A team and the TV writer was on the B team. 2261 02:09:42.319 --> 02:09:45.840 That's changed completely now, but that's what it was then. 2262 02:09:46.600 --> 02:09:51.720 And so I just had a child and I in TV. 2263 02:09:51.800 --> 02:09:54.239 You just don't have time to do anything but do TV. 2264 02:09:54.840 --> 02:09:56.640 In movies, I just wrote it home for four or 2265 02:09:56.640 --> 02:09:58.199 five hours a day. It was great. And I did 2266 02:09:58.199 --> 02:10:00.920 that for sixteen years after to the first one. I 2267 02:10:00.960 --> 02:10:04.039 grew up movies for sixteen years. And then my movie 2268 02:10:04.079 --> 02:10:07.960 career started to fade. And the producer Mark Gordon, who's 2269 02:10:08.000 --> 02:10:12.560 done Speed and Great Anatomy and a million others. It's 2270 02:10:12.600 --> 02:10:14.520 a big shop producer. He's a friend of Mike, called 2271 02:10:14.560 --> 02:10:16.800 me said, don't you go to TV again. I really 2272 02:10:16.840 --> 02:10:18.279 want to get in and tell it. He wasn't in 2273 02:10:18.319 --> 02:10:20.800 TV at the time, he had not had Gray's Anatomy yet, 2274 02:10:21.479 --> 02:10:23.520 And I said, yeah, I got this kind of idea 2275 02:10:23.720 --> 02:10:28.119 for an airport, and we pitched it, we sold it, 2276 02:10:28.119 --> 02:10:30.560 it got made, It was on the air but failed 2277 02:10:31.119 --> 02:10:35.239 and was over in thirteen. Big Mark had graded Enemy 2278 02:10:35.239 --> 02:10:38.439 and Lax at the same time, and graith Anaimy it 2279 02:10:38.600 --> 02:10:43.159 is still on twenty years later, and Lax lasted thirteen episodes. 2280 02:10:43.199 --> 02:10:45.079 So goes that's how I go. 2281 02:10:45.239 --> 02:10:48.640 The things you worked on one that I really like 2282 02:10:48.680 --> 02:10:50.720 a lot, called The Associate. Can you tell me what 2283 02:10:50.760 --> 02:10:53.039 was your involvement with that one and what was the 2284 02:10:53.119 --> 02:10:54.479 experience like for you on that one? 2285 02:10:55.399 --> 02:10:59.039 It actually was a pretty good experience. I at the time, 2286 02:10:59.039 --> 02:11:00.840 I was doing a lot of work for Disney and 2287 02:11:01.000 --> 02:11:05.199 Hollywood Pictures, which made the movie was part of Disney. 2288 02:11:05.279 --> 02:11:06.840 They went out of business, but it was part of 2289 02:11:06.840 --> 02:11:10.079 Disney at the time, and Jeffrey Katzenberger was running Disney 2290 02:11:10.159 --> 02:11:11.960 was a fan of my writing, and I had done 2291 02:11:12.079 --> 02:11:16.720 three or four other movies for them, and so they said, 2292 02:11:16.760 --> 02:11:19.439 do you want to adapt this French movie called The Associate. 2293 02:11:20.119 --> 02:11:21.439 So I watched it and I thought, oh, yeah, this 2294 02:11:21.520 --> 02:11:24.920 would be great, and I basically just adapted it. I 2295 02:11:24.920 --> 02:11:28.520 mean that movie is about a guy, a nebushy guy 2296 02:11:29.039 --> 02:11:33.079 who can't get ahead any invents a fictitious partner. So 2297 02:11:33.119 --> 02:11:35.279 I wrote it exactly like that, and they all hated it. 2298 02:11:36.000 --> 02:11:37.640 I got called into the office and it was like 2299 02:11:37.720 --> 02:11:40.000 the worst meeting in my life. They all hated Interscope 2300 02:11:40.079 --> 02:11:43.600 was the producer. They said, the guy such a loser. 2301 02:11:43.640 --> 02:11:44.760 Who are we going to get to act in it? 2302 02:11:44.840 --> 02:11:46.760 This is before Jim Carrey became a big story do 2303 02:11:46.840 --> 02:11:49.640 carry would have been perfect? So he's guy such a loser? 2304 02:11:49.880 --> 02:11:50.199 I said. 2305 02:11:50.319 --> 02:11:52.399 The only way you could do it is because there 2306 02:11:52.479 --> 02:11:56.840 was such a glass ceiling in the early nineties that 2307 02:11:57.079 --> 02:11:58.960 I said, if we made her a woman, then she 2308 02:11:58.960 --> 02:12:01.520 would she could still be really competent and great and 2309 02:12:01.640 --> 02:12:04.520 still have to have a fictitious pardon. And they said great. 2310 02:12:04.800 --> 02:12:07.760 So I had to completely throw out my script right 2311 02:12:07.800 --> 02:12:12.039 from scratch with a woman star. And the way that 2312 02:12:12.199 --> 02:12:16.399 got made was they wanted Whoope to do a movie 2313 02:12:16.479 --> 02:12:19.039 called Eddie, which I don't know if you're familiar with 2314 02:12:19.119 --> 02:12:21.640 that movie where she owns a bad and here it's 2315 02:12:21.680 --> 02:12:24.760 a basketball team or something like that. And she didn't 2316 02:12:24.800 --> 02:12:26.720 want to do it, but she wanted to do the Associate. 2317 02:12:26.920 --> 02:12:29.359 So she said, I'll do that movie if you make Associate. 2318 02:12:29.640 --> 02:12:32.079 And that's how it got made. It was her idea 2319 02:12:32.239 --> 02:12:36.800 to have persistent, be an older woman who could have 2320 02:12:36.880 --> 02:12:39.520 been a success if she hadn't been a woman who 2321 02:12:40.119 --> 02:12:42.760 is like really smart and stuff, and what was her idea? 2322 02:12:42.800 --> 02:12:44.560 And I put it in the script. It was great. 2323 02:12:44.600 --> 02:12:46.079 I thought that was the best part of the movie. 2324 02:12:46.359 --> 02:12:48.079 And to have Diane West play her. 2325 02:12:48.159 --> 02:12:50.960 Was oh yeah, she was fantastic, so good. 2326 02:12:51.720 --> 02:12:54.960 So where was VII Worshowski when you came to that project. 2327 02:12:55.600 --> 02:13:00.359 Oh that's a bad story. It's not a good story. Again, 2328 02:13:00.600 --> 02:13:03.720 it's Disney. It was Hollywood Pictures. They love what I 2329 02:13:03.800 --> 02:13:07.439 did on the other stuff I did, so they called 2330 02:13:07.520 --> 02:13:10.399 me in. It was Katzenberg and Ricardo Mestress, who was 2331 02:13:10.479 --> 02:13:13.520 head of Hollywood Pictures at the time, and they said, 2332 02:13:13.560 --> 02:13:15.279 we want you to rewrite the script and I said, 2333 02:13:16.319 --> 02:13:19.880 I can't. It's really bad. I just can't do it. 2334 02:13:20.079 --> 02:13:22.319 I have too many other things to do. And they 2335 02:13:22.399 --> 02:13:24.760 kept throwing more money at it, and I thought to 2336 02:13:24.880 --> 02:13:26.600 a point where I couldn't say no anymore, and I 2337 02:13:26.640 --> 02:13:29.159 said okay. So they said, okay, we want you to 2338 02:13:29.239 --> 02:13:31.680 meet with the producers tomorrow. So I went to the 2339 02:13:31.760 --> 02:13:35.520 producers and it was like a stone wall. They hated 2340 02:13:35.640 --> 02:13:38.439 me from the beginning, because they thought the script was perfect. 2341 02:13:39.000 --> 02:13:41.279 They had already gotten Kathleen Turner and they thought the 2342 02:13:41.319 --> 02:13:43.760 script was perfect. And I said, what am I doing here? 2343 02:13:43.760 --> 02:13:45.439 If you don't want to change it, why am I here? 2344 02:13:45.840 --> 02:13:48.239 And they went, you're right, you shouldn't be here. So 2345 02:13:48.279 --> 02:13:51.039 I went back to Jeffrey Katzenberg's office and I said, 2346 02:13:52.119 --> 02:13:53.760 they don't want me to write it. He goes, I do, 2347 02:13:54.600 --> 02:13:56.399 that's all that matters. I want you to rewrite it. 2348 02:13:56.560 --> 02:13:58.880 I said, but I can't work with the producers. He goes, 2349 02:13:59.159 --> 02:14:00.760 you don't have to just work me and Ricardo. 2350 02:14:01.479 --> 02:14:02.239 So I said, okay. 2351 02:14:02.439 --> 02:14:06.479 So I completely wrote the script. The producers hated it. 2352 02:14:06.600 --> 02:14:08.920 They put some of the stuff back that I hated 2353 02:14:08.960 --> 02:14:11.319 that was in the original, like going through the sausage factory. 2354 02:14:11.319 --> 02:14:13.720 I don't know if you remember that scene, but I 2355 02:14:13.840 --> 02:14:18.199 hated that scene and they put it back. But because 2356 02:14:18.239 --> 02:14:21.880 I changed the plot a lot and the story a lot, 2357 02:14:22.720 --> 02:14:25.359 I still got credit on it. It's more of the 2358 02:14:25.399 --> 02:14:27.800 original writers of mine. But I wrote enough for the 2359 02:14:27.840 --> 02:14:30.279 writer's guilt to give me credit, and I was the 2360 02:14:30.359 --> 02:14:30.880 Latin writer. 2361 02:14:31.640 --> 02:14:33.800 Yeah, that sausage factory scene doesn't make a lick of 2362 02:14:33.880 --> 02:14:36.159 sense because I don't think that Stephen Rude ever comes 2363 02:14:36.239 --> 02:14:36.960 back in the movie. 2364 02:14:37.840 --> 02:14:40.720 I think once he does. I think somewhere, somewhere he 2365 02:14:40.760 --> 02:14:43.800 comes from back one more time. When it was shot 2366 02:14:44.279 --> 02:14:50.560 and there was a preview screening, Ricardo and Jeffrey invited 2367 02:14:50.640 --> 02:14:53.000 me and I went. And when I walked into that 2368 02:14:53.479 --> 02:14:55.880 lobby and those guys saw me, the producers and the 2369 02:14:55.960 --> 02:14:58.520 original writer and the director saw me, it was like 2370 02:14:58.640 --> 02:15:01.720 Hitler just walked into the room. My god, I was 2371 02:15:02.399 --> 02:15:05.840 They did not want me there. But the screening was great, 2372 02:15:05.880 --> 02:15:08.159 the audience liked it, and it was a lot of fun. 2373 02:15:08.279 --> 02:15:10.760 But they were they never I've never talked to those 2374 02:15:10.800 --> 02:15:13.239 guys since. I don't want to. I don't even know 2375 02:15:13.279 --> 02:15:15.840 if they're still a route, but I don't want But anyway, 2376 02:15:16.079 --> 02:15:17.319 it was not a great experience. 2377 02:15:18.279 --> 02:15:20.279 Have you ever had an experience as bad as that? 2378 02:15:20.439 --> 02:15:21.119 On other things? 2379 02:15:22.000 --> 02:15:24.199 If you want to hear the story about the Associated, 2380 02:15:24.239 --> 02:15:26.039 there was a period of time in the Associate where 2381 02:15:26.039 --> 02:15:29.239 it was really bad. Donald Peachey was a director who 2382 02:15:29.239 --> 02:15:31.520 had done Grumpy Old Men, and he had just come 2383 02:15:31.600 --> 02:15:33.920 up Grumpy Old Men and he was directing the Associate. 2384 02:15:34.359 --> 02:15:37.039 So I worked with him on the script a lot, 2385 02:15:37.359 --> 02:15:38.960 and he gave me a lot of good notes and 2386 02:15:39.239 --> 02:15:42.640 we did the script. They green lit the movie after 2387 02:15:42.760 --> 02:15:46.800 Whoopy came on board, and they said we were going 2388 02:15:46.880 --> 02:15:49.119 to go to New York for just a preview meeting, 2389 02:15:49.279 --> 02:15:51.640 just a meeting to read the script out loud. We 2390 02:15:51.720 --> 02:15:54.279 were going to get actress from Broadway to help do 2391 02:15:54.359 --> 02:15:57.279 a table read so we can hear it. So we 2392 02:15:57.399 --> 02:16:00.880 went to the table read and Whoopee walks in with 2393 02:16:00.960 --> 02:16:03.520 Olympia Ducocus to play the part that Diane Least ended 2394 02:16:03.560 --> 02:16:06.960 I'll play, And I have all respect for both of them. 2395 02:16:06.960 --> 02:16:10.880 I think they're both terrific actors. But they came in 2396 02:16:11.279 --> 02:16:14.840 and we had Victor Garber, who's terrific, and we had 2397 02:16:14.880 --> 02:16:18.000 Babie Dealworth who ended up getting cash because of her reading, 2398 02:16:18.520 --> 02:16:21.079 and a bunch of other actors that were great. And 2399 02:16:21.239 --> 02:16:23.479 part of one of the things that Whopy insisted on 2400 02:16:23.560 --> 02:16:25.760 it and was in the contract that the love story 2401 02:16:25.800 --> 02:16:28.520 could not be cut because she never gets to do 2402 02:16:28.640 --> 02:16:31.600 love stories and there was a love supplt in there 2403 02:16:32.399 --> 02:16:34.120 she insisted to say on her. So we do the 2404 02:16:34.239 --> 02:16:37.959 read through and Whoopy and Lempia are reading like they've 2405 02:16:38.040 --> 02:16:41.399 never acted a day in their life. They are sabotaging it, 2406 02:16:41.680 --> 02:16:43.600 but everybody else is doing such a good job and 2407 02:16:43.639 --> 02:16:46.840 they're getting laughed. But eventually they went, I guess we 2408 02:16:46.959 --> 02:16:49.719 better act. And it was a really good reading at 2409 02:16:49.719 --> 02:16:53.879 the end. But when the thing was done, whoopy says, 2410 02:16:54.399 --> 02:16:58.000 cut that fucking love story she had in her contract, 2411 02:16:58.959 --> 02:17:01.639 and we went okay, And so we had to go 2412 02:17:01.840 --> 02:17:04.680 and get notes from her the next morning at her 2413 02:17:04.799 --> 02:17:08.639 suite at the Plaza at New and Beautiful, two story Sweet. 2414 02:17:08.639 --> 02:17:13.079 It was great and Donald said listen because she was 2415 02:17:13.159 --> 02:17:16.680 being really a jerk to me. And Donald said, listen, 2416 02:17:16.760 --> 02:17:19.319 don't come by twenty minutes late because I got to 2417 02:17:19.319 --> 02:17:20.799 talk to her. She can't talk to you like that. 2418 02:17:20.920 --> 02:17:23.479 She was really disrespectful. I have to talk to her 2419 02:17:23.559 --> 02:17:27.000 before you get there. So I walk into the suite 2420 02:17:27.120 --> 02:17:30.159 and it's ice station Zebra. There's like icicles hanging from 2421 02:17:30.440 --> 02:17:35.559 the ceiling. They hate each other. They hate each other. Woopee. 2422 02:17:35.600 --> 02:17:37.600 Gave some great notes. One of them was to Diana. 2423 02:17:37.600 --> 02:17:41.680 Weives note. She gave great notes about her. And every 2424 02:17:41.719 --> 02:17:43.319 time I turned to Donald go hey, that was a 2425 02:17:43.319 --> 02:17:47.120 good note, and Donald would just stoneface. So we walk 2426 02:17:47.200 --> 02:17:50.719 out on Fifth Avenue and Donald said, I'm quitting I'm 2427 02:17:50.799 --> 02:17:53.719 leaving today, so I see an animation of my script 2428 02:17:53.760 --> 02:17:56.000 flying away, because that would be the end of the 2429 02:17:56.079 --> 02:17:59.920 movie if we lost Donald. And I said, Donald, you 2430 02:18:00.120 --> 02:18:02.200 can't quit, you can't quit. I beg and goes, no, no, no, 2431 02:18:03.159 --> 02:18:07.120 I'm done. So I go to my hotel room and 2432 02:18:07.280 --> 02:18:10.040 the phone is ringing off the hook. Everybody's calling me 2433 02:18:10.280 --> 02:18:14.600 from Ricardo Messrs. He had a Venerscope, Donald's lawyer because 2434 02:18:14.600 --> 02:18:17.920 he won't answer the phone, and I said, I can't 2435 02:18:18.559 --> 02:18:20.879 He's not going to listen to me anyway. They send 2436 02:18:20.959 --> 02:18:24.520 everybody back except me. I got fired. I was fired 2437 02:18:24.559 --> 02:18:28.159 off the thing, and Whoopy said, I want to hire 2438 02:18:28.200 --> 02:18:32.000 my writer. So Whoopy hired her writer and I just 2439 02:18:32.200 --> 02:18:34.719 I licked my wounds. About six to eight weeks past 2440 02:18:34.879 --> 02:18:37.120 and I didn't hear from anybody. It was great, okay, fine, 2441 02:18:37.479 --> 02:18:40.280 maybe I'll get credit, maybe I won't. And I get 2442 02:18:40.360 --> 02:18:42.239 a call at six o'clock in the morning from Donald 2443 02:18:42.239 --> 02:18:44.360 pechere about six eight weeks later and says, you. 2444 02:18:44.399 --> 02:18:44.959 Got to come back. 2445 02:18:45.159 --> 02:18:47.319 You got to come back. We need to help with 2446 02:18:47.399 --> 02:18:49.200 this script. You gotta come back. I said, I'll be 2447 02:18:49.280 --> 02:18:51.959 happy to come back with Whoope take me back, and 2448 02:18:52.120 --> 02:18:54.879 he said oh, when she reads this draft, she's gonna 2449 02:18:55.040 --> 02:18:58.360 want you back, believe me. So Whoopy was getting fitted 2450 02:18:58.399 --> 02:19:01.719 from the male's face that Marl she assisted on being 2451 02:19:01.760 --> 02:19:04.360 Marlon Brando. That was what that face is supposed to 2452 02:19:04.440 --> 02:19:07.600 be like. Even though her hair made the mask not 2453 02:19:07.719 --> 02:19:10.879 fit properly, but she wouldn't cut her hair anyway. She 2454 02:19:11.120 --> 02:19:14.280 put she's got the mask on, and she's telling Donald 2455 02:19:14.319 --> 02:19:16.319 all the things, she all the changes she'd make to 2456 02:19:16.360 --> 02:19:20.680 the news script. And Donald said, we just interscope in 2457 02:19:20.760 --> 02:19:23.600 Hollywood Pictures. We all met and we're in take. We're 2458 02:19:23.639 --> 02:19:26.440 bringing Nick back, and she clipped her faith off it said, 2459 02:19:27.040 --> 02:19:28.920 you're paying me a lot of money. I'll fucking say 2460 02:19:28.959 --> 02:19:32.680 anything you want me to say, and left. So when 2461 02:19:32.719 --> 02:19:34.239 I went to the set of New York, it was 2462 02:19:34.360 --> 02:19:36.920 not good. Donald and her were not talking. Donald would 2463 02:19:36.959 --> 02:19:42.479 hide it is a trailer. It was really bad, but 2464 02:19:43.040 --> 02:19:45.040 that's the way it goes. But it ended up getting 2465 02:19:45.079 --> 02:19:47.479 made and it was nice. I got sole credit. It 2466 02:19:47.600 --> 02:19:50.360 was terrific, but it was that was the one bad 2467 02:19:50.479 --> 02:19:53.959 part of it. See it's not all great in Hollywood. Yeah, yeah, 2468 02:19:55.959 --> 02:19:56.159 I know. 2469 02:19:56.319 --> 02:19:59.440 One of your first gakes was flying High and then 2470 02:19:59.479 --> 02:20:04.159 you've and then you've done Lax and you've done pan Am, 2471 02:20:04.479 --> 02:20:06.399 what's with you in airlines? 2472 02:20:07.159 --> 02:20:11.680 That would be pure coincidence. Flying Hi was just one 2473 02:20:11.760 --> 02:20:14.319 of the gigs my part I had a partner back then, 2474 02:20:15.159 --> 02:20:18.639 my partner I did When we first started out, we 2475 02:20:18.760 --> 02:20:21.399 had done an episode of A not wrote an episode 2476 02:20:21.399 --> 02:20:23.399 of eight is Enough, but we hadn't gotten on staff yet, 2477 02:20:24.040 --> 02:20:25.920 so we were freelanced. We did a show called Carter 2478 02:20:26.079 --> 02:20:29.200 Country and Flying High and Beach Patrol and all this 2479 02:20:29.399 --> 02:20:32.680 really bad stuff before it is enough to come on staff. 2480 02:20:32.760 --> 02:20:36.200 But it was the PanAm thing happened because I had 2481 02:20:36.280 --> 02:20:41.440 done a show called The Waterfront, which he never got 2482 02:20:41.520 --> 02:20:43.680 on the air, which was great. Jack Orman, who ran 2483 02:20:44.040 --> 02:20:46.920 Er for a number of years, had written it and 2484 02:20:48.479 --> 02:20:52.159 he created pan Am. So he liked me on Waterfront, 2485 02:20:52.200 --> 02:20:53.760 and when pan Am came he asked me to come 2486 02:20:53.840 --> 02:20:56.760 on board, and so it was just pure coincidence that 2487 02:20:56.840 --> 02:20:59.159 it happened like that. He didn't hire me because I 2488 02:20:59.239 --> 02:20:59.920 had done Lam. 2489 02:21:00.840 --> 02:21:02.600 They were like, we need a guy who wrote for. 2490 02:21:05.000 --> 02:21:06.799 And that was what Jordans would say to each other. 2491 02:21:07.719 --> 02:21:09.360 Pan Ann could have been a great show. It's just 2492 02:21:09.440 --> 02:21:12.159 a network in the studio thought about what the show 2493 02:21:12.159 --> 02:21:15.680 should be so much, one one that loves show, one 2494 02:21:15.760 --> 02:21:19.159 one in a spy show. So it didn't work and 2495 02:21:19.600 --> 02:21:23.079 the show ended up not working. But we had Margot Robbie. 2496 02:21:23.840 --> 02:21:26.079 That was her first gig. She was nineteen years old 2497 02:21:26.159 --> 02:21:29.079 and she was so sweet and really funny, but she 2498 02:21:29.239 --> 02:21:31.680 was ashamed of her body. She wouldn't wear any bikinis. 2499 02:21:32.239 --> 02:21:34.040 Was weird, but she wouldn't because we did a couple 2500 02:21:34.079 --> 02:21:36.920 of beach shots and she would not wear a bikini. 2501 02:21:37.719 --> 02:21:41.040 She just thought her body wasn't good enough anyway. So 2502 02:21:41.200 --> 02:21:43.360 that's how that happened. That's how PanAm happened. 2503 02:21:44.040 --> 02:21:45.000 What are you working on now? 2504 02:21:45.760 --> 02:21:50.280 I just finished a pilot for ABC Call about a 2505 02:21:50.479 --> 02:21:54.959 rural hospital, and they'll make their decisions in January. I 2506 02:21:55.000 --> 02:21:56.520 don't know whether it's going to get shot or doesn't 2507 02:21:56.520 --> 02:21:59.360 get shot. I don't know pilots. You got one in 2508 02:21:59.639 --> 02:22:02.479 what at a one and fifty chance of getting on 2509 02:22:02.559 --> 02:22:05.959 the air, but it might happen. I had a great 2510 02:22:06.000 --> 02:22:08.600 time doing it, and at my age, to get a 2511 02:22:08.760 --> 02:22:11.639 job in Hollywood is really doing something? 2512 02:22:12.360 --> 02:22:15.440 Are you pretty much exclusively screenplays? Have you written fiction 2513 02:22:15.600 --> 02:22:16.000 or anything? 2514 02:22:16.920 --> 02:22:19.479 I am right now I'm writing a novel, but just 2515 02:22:19.559 --> 02:22:21.799 because I don't have any TV or movie work to 2516 02:22:21.879 --> 02:22:23.879 do at the moment, so I'm right when just to 2517 02:22:23.959 --> 02:22:27.879 keep busy. But I hadn't, I really never had. I 2518 02:22:27.959 --> 02:22:29.719 think I wrote a couple of short stories in college, 2519 02:22:29.760 --> 02:22:33.440 and poetry and stuff, but nothing. I really didn't hadn't 2520 02:22:33.440 --> 02:22:38.079 written a screenplay until I went to graduate school. It's 2521 02:22:38.120 --> 02:22:39.959 a weird thing where I knew I wanted to do it, 2522 02:22:40.399 --> 02:22:43.479 but I never did it. And I thought everybody in 2523 02:22:43.559 --> 02:22:46.840 Hollywood for geniuses, but I was never going to Then 2524 02:22:46.879 --> 02:22:48.639 I went into grad school and I saw the other 2525 02:22:48.680 --> 02:22:50.479 writers and I went, Holy hit, I'm as good as 2526 02:22:50.520 --> 02:22:54.719 these people are. So you gave me a little more confidence. 2527 02:22:55.520 --> 02:22:57.760 Mister Thal, thank you so much. This was so much 2528 02:22:57.799 --> 02:22:58.600 fun talking with you. 2529 02:22:59.120 --> 02:23:00.879 You're very welcome. I'm happy to do it. 2530 02:23:03.040 --> 02:23:05.559 Okay. Up next, we're going to hear from the director 2531 02:23:05.799 --> 02:23:10.280 of Via Warshowski, Jeff Canoe. I see so many familiar 2532 02:23:10.399 --> 02:23:13.319 things from your fimography behind you. But what did you 2533 02:23:13.399 --> 02:23:14.639 have to do with Repossessed? 2534 02:23:15.639 --> 02:23:19.600 Okay? Repossessed a friend of mine, Joe Uzanne, who eventually 2535 02:23:19.840 --> 02:23:22.600 became ahead of production at Fox et cetera, et cetera, 2536 02:23:23.159 --> 02:23:24.840 and I did a lot of trailers for him, so 2537 02:23:24.879 --> 02:23:27.399 we knew each other pretty well, and he produced that movie. 2538 02:23:27.959 --> 02:23:30.360 It was with Linda Blair and he got Leslie Nielsen 2539 02:23:30.399 --> 02:23:34.000 and it came out and then he called me and 2540 02:23:34.040 --> 02:23:35.799 he said, listen, we want to cut a half hour 2541 02:23:35.840 --> 02:23:38.280 out of the bad stuff and add a half hour 2542 02:23:38.399 --> 02:23:41.360 of new stuff. Do you want to help us? So sure, 2543 02:23:41.760 --> 02:23:45.680 I got some ideas and okay. So there's a sequence 2544 02:23:45.719 --> 02:23:48.799 when Leslie Nielsen goes to a gym to train for 2545 02:23:48.920 --> 02:23:51.760 the exorcism and body by Jake is there, I think. 2546 02:23:52.600 --> 02:23:54.159 So that was something one of my scenes that I 2547 02:23:54.239 --> 02:23:57.079 put in, and then there was a few other things, 2548 02:23:57.200 --> 02:24:02.719 and then particularly the finale where they decided to exercise 2549 02:24:02.799 --> 02:24:07.040 her with rock and roll and he does his impression 2550 02:24:07.120 --> 02:24:09.719 of Elton John and Michael Jackson and all that stuff. 2551 02:24:09.879 --> 02:24:13.159 So all that stuff was my stuff in there uncredited. 2552 02:24:14.239 --> 02:24:15.559 I was around and it was fun. 2553 02:24:16.520 --> 02:24:18.280 How did you get into the business. Did you go 2554 02:24:18.399 --> 02:24:20.680 in more through the editing or the directing, because you've 2555 02:24:20.719 --> 02:24:21.600 done a lot of both. 2556 02:24:22.520 --> 02:24:26.200 I started out wanting to be a rock star. I 2557 02:24:26.280 --> 02:24:29.840 had a band and we made some records and that's 2558 02:24:29.879 --> 02:24:32.760 what I That was my dream. But little by little 2559 02:24:32.760 --> 02:24:35.719 I realized that wasn't happening. One summer, we were the 2560 02:24:35.799 --> 02:24:37.840 house band at a place called the Cafe Wis in 2561 02:24:37.920 --> 02:24:43.879 Greenwich Village and we auditioned the same day as Paul 2562 02:24:43.920 --> 02:24:46.520 Simon and a Garfunkel audition. Then we got the job 2563 02:24:46.559 --> 02:24:48.799 because they were just being folk singers at the time. 2564 02:24:50.000 --> 02:24:52.639 And plus again, here's where the story goes in the 2565 02:24:52.680 --> 02:24:56.239 wrong direction. Prior to that, I had taken my demos 2566 02:24:56.280 --> 02:25:00.360 around to record companies and didn't get much activity. And 2567 02:25:00.399 --> 02:25:02.639 I went to this one little record company and there 2568 02:25:02.719 --> 02:25:04.280 was a guy who was there, a and R men 2569 02:25:05.120 --> 02:25:09.319 named Jerry Landis, and he was very nice and he 2570 02:25:09.399 --> 02:25:11.319 listened to my stuff and he said, you wrote these 2571 02:25:11.360 --> 02:25:13.760 songs and I said yeah. He said, and that's you 2572 02:25:13.879 --> 02:25:16.799 guys are singing. I go yeah. He said you're playing 2573 02:25:16.840 --> 02:25:19.920 the instruments too. This was before the Beatles, and he 2574 02:25:19.959 --> 02:25:22.559 said yeah, So we usually use studio musicians, so we 2575 02:25:22.600 --> 02:25:24.840 wouldn't need you to play, but we'll give you a 2576 02:25:24.920 --> 02:25:28.559 contract as a vocal group. So that was great. I 2577 02:25:28.680 --> 02:25:30.600 was excited. I went and told the guys in my band, 2578 02:25:30.600 --> 02:25:33.200 who were also at my high school best friends, and 2579 02:25:33.360 --> 02:25:37.600 somehow it came out that because the drummer didn't sing, 2580 02:25:38.239 --> 02:25:43.000 why should we split the vocal contract with him, and 2581 02:25:43.120 --> 02:25:45.600 said they dubbed me the person that was going to 2582 02:25:45.639 --> 02:25:49.639 tell Joel the drummer that he's not getting a cut anyway. 2583 02:25:50.000 --> 02:25:51.879 So I tell Joel, and now the other two guys 2584 02:25:51.879 --> 02:25:54.079 seem to have talked to Joel the night before, and 2585 02:25:54.200 --> 02:25:57.680 Joel says that's not fair, and then they're behind me 2586 02:25:57.719 --> 02:25:59.360 in the car and they go, that's not fair to Joel. 2587 02:26:00.120 --> 02:26:02.520 You guys told me to tell him this. Anyway. My 2588 02:26:02.639 --> 02:26:05.280 band broke up, so we forgot to do anything with 2589 02:26:05.399 --> 02:26:09.959 the contract for Jerry Landis. Then I started a new 2590 02:26:10.040 --> 02:26:12.600 band and the next summer we were about to audition. 2591 02:26:12.920 --> 02:26:15.319 They had a thing called the hooton Nanny, which was 2592 02:26:15.360 --> 02:26:18.879 basically an audition day for the Cafe Wha. And we're 2593 02:26:18.920 --> 02:26:21.440 online waiting with all the other bands and this guy 2594 02:26:21.520 --> 02:26:23.719 in front of me is this little guy that looks 2595 02:26:23.760 --> 02:26:26.120 so familiar. And he turns around and I go Jerry 2596 02:26:26.200 --> 02:26:29.399 Landis and he goes, yeah, Hi, who are you? And 2597 02:26:29.479 --> 02:26:30.959 I got my name is Jeff Canoe. You gave me 2598 02:26:31.040 --> 02:26:34.079 a contract? Because he goes yeah, then your group broke up. 2599 02:26:34.959 --> 02:26:37.120 He goes, oh, this is my buddy already. I don't 2600 02:26:37.200 --> 02:26:39.639 use the name Jerry landis anymore. I use my real name. 2601 02:26:39.799 --> 02:26:43.559 What's your real name? Paul Simon? So Simon and Garfunk 2602 02:26:43.600 --> 02:26:45.920 who were online just in front of us, and they 2603 02:26:46.040 --> 02:26:49.040 sang some folks song about the plane that crashed in Mexico, 2604 02:26:49.120 --> 02:26:52.079 and they didn't get the gig, but we got the gig. However, 2605 02:26:52.319 --> 02:26:54.120 by the end of the summer, they were superstars and 2606 02:26:54.200 --> 02:26:57.040 we were not. And this is also at the beginning 2607 02:26:57.040 --> 02:27:00.399 of when I went started to go to college, which 2608 02:27:00.440 --> 02:27:02.360 I wasn't interested in at all. I was interested in 2609 02:27:02.520 --> 02:27:06.079 being a rock star. Anyway, I got suspended from I 2610 02:27:06.120 --> 02:27:09.520 went to Colombia. I got suspended from Columbia for cutting 2611 02:27:09.559 --> 02:27:12.559 too many classes, and so I had a year's suspension 2612 02:27:13.319 --> 02:27:16.600 and I didn't really care, but my mother didn't like it. 2613 02:27:17.559 --> 02:27:19.680 I had this part time job working at a movie 2614 02:27:19.719 --> 02:27:21.920 company because a neighbor, Oh, my father had died the 2615 02:27:22.040 --> 02:27:25.799 year before, and this neighbor, out of pity for my mother, 2616 02:27:25.959 --> 02:27:30.239 gave me this summer job working at United Artists as 2617 02:27:30.280 --> 02:27:33.239 a gopher office boy, whatever you call it. And so 2618 02:27:33.360 --> 02:27:37.000 I was working there and still thinking about my music career. 2619 02:27:37.280 --> 02:27:40.879 And at a certain point when I got kicked out 2620 02:27:40.920 --> 02:27:43.920 of school, this man, who was trying to help my 2621 02:27:44.040 --> 02:27:46.319 mother got mad at me and he said, all right, 2622 02:27:46.559 --> 02:27:50.799 then you're losing your job here too, right, And I said, oh, 2623 02:27:50.920 --> 02:27:52.879 that's terrible, and he goes, unless you can get back 2624 02:27:52.920 --> 02:27:55.680 into school, then we're going to You can't work here anymore. 2625 02:27:55.959 --> 02:27:57.680 So I went and begged the dean to let me 2626 02:27:57.799 --> 02:28:00.440 back in, and the dean said, I can talk to 2627 02:28:00.520 --> 02:28:03.760 your professors and finish all the work, then we won't 2628 02:28:03.799 --> 02:28:07.360 suspend you. So I went to the professors and yaha, yah, yaha. Anyway, 2629 02:28:07.600 --> 02:28:09.200 they all agreed to let me do the work and 2630 02:28:09.239 --> 02:28:11.200 take the final, and two of them failed me anyway, 2631 02:28:12.600 --> 02:28:16.639 so I was out. And now the man United Artists 2632 02:28:16.639 --> 02:28:18.360 felt sorry for me, so he gave me a job 2633 02:28:18.399 --> 02:28:22.040 as the assistant to their trailer producer, the in house 2634 02:28:22.120 --> 02:28:24.760 trailer producer for the United Artists. I barely knew what 2635 02:28:24.840 --> 02:28:26.959 a trailer was, although I had gone to the movies 2636 02:28:26.959 --> 02:28:30.840 a lot, and so I became this guy's assistant, and 2637 02:28:32.200 --> 02:28:35.280 luckily or unluckily for him, he had some kind of 2638 02:28:35.319 --> 02:28:39.520 a muscular dystrophee and his hands didn't work too well, 2639 02:28:39.600 --> 02:28:42.639 and so I became his hands, which meant like I 2640 02:28:42.680 --> 02:28:44.479 could zip up his fly after he goes to the 2641 02:28:44.520 --> 02:28:46.879 bathroom where I could hold his sandwich while he ate it. 2642 02:28:47.159 --> 02:28:48.559 But in the meantime, I got to do a lot 2643 02:28:48.639 --> 02:28:50.520 of his work that I never would have had a 2644 02:28:50.639 --> 02:28:52.920 chance to do before. And so I learned how to 2645 02:28:53.079 --> 02:28:56.680 edit and that was pretty much fun. I still really 2646 02:28:56.719 --> 02:28:59.159 wanted to be a rock star, but I started to 2647 02:28:59.280 --> 02:29:04.360 learn how to make movie trailers. So now I'm out 2648 02:29:04.399 --> 02:29:08.360 of school. I'm working as a trailer assistant to the 2649 02:29:08.399 --> 02:29:10.600 trailer guy, and I never went to meetings or anything. 2650 02:29:10.639 --> 02:29:12.799 I was happy to just stay back and do the work. 2651 02:29:12.879 --> 02:29:15.120 And the other guys in the editing place were all 2652 02:29:15.239 --> 02:29:19.239 ex duop guys as well, so that was fine. But 2653 02:29:19.360 --> 02:29:24.200 then I got a draft notice and I realized because 2654 02:29:24.200 --> 02:29:29.040 this was nineteen sixty five, and it was like, I'm 2655 02:29:29.079 --> 02:29:31.399 gonna have to go to Vietnam. And that was not 2656 02:29:31.479 --> 02:29:35.040 a real popular activity back then, and probably in some 2657 02:29:35.120 --> 02:29:37.479 parts of the country, everybody wanted to go, but nobody 2658 02:29:37.600 --> 02:29:42.280 from Brooklyn wanted to go there. And so what am 2659 02:29:42.319 --> 02:29:45.040 I going to do. All these other guys that I 2660 02:29:45.159 --> 02:29:47.319 was friends with were already married. They were like my age, 2661 02:29:47.360 --> 02:29:50.159 but married, and that was why they all got married. 2662 02:29:50.239 --> 02:29:52.319 To beat the draft because that was the law back then. 2663 02:29:52.799 --> 02:29:55.079 So they said, so you're seeing this girl, why don't 2664 02:29:55.079 --> 02:29:56.639 you just marry her? And I go, but I'm like 2665 02:29:56.719 --> 02:29:59.319 twenty years old. I don't want to be married. You 2666 02:29:59.360 --> 02:30:02.000 want to go to viet No. No, Anyway, I got 2667 02:30:02.120 --> 02:30:05.600 married and now I needed a raise. So I asked 2668 02:30:05.639 --> 02:30:07.360 my boss, can I get a little raise because I 2669 02:30:07.479 --> 02:30:10.000 was making ninety three dollars a week and the next 2670 02:30:10.079 --> 02:30:12.639 level was one O three or something, and he said no. 2671 02:30:14.520 --> 02:30:16.840 So he said, I, if you want to raise, go 2672 02:30:16.959 --> 02:30:18.920 ask the head of the department. I'm not going for you. 2673 02:30:19.680 --> 02:30:21.159 And they didn't really know what I did because I 2674 02:30:21.200 --> 02:30:23.159 never went to the meetings. Anyway. I went to make 2675 02:30:23.239 --> 02:30:27.000 this long story less long. I ended up losing that job, 2676 02:30:27.920 --> 02:30:31.559 and now I'm sitting out here one a on the 2677 02:30:31.680 --> 02:30:34.639 draft and what am I going to do? And this 2678 02:30:34.760 --> 02:30:36.920 friend of mine, one of the other guys, who was 2679 02:30:36.920 --> 02:30:39.520 an editor, said start your own trailer company. He's a 2680 02:30:39.559 --> 02:30:41.600 Brooklyn guy, so you sounded like this. I go, I 2681 02:30:41.719 --> 02:30:43.440 can't start my own trailer company. Who was going to 2682 02:30:43.479 --> 02:30:47.520 give me work? I can't do the client relationships part. 2683 02:30:47.840 --> 02:30:50.719 He goes, just you could do it. So I had 2684 02:30:50.879 --> 02:30:53.120 I went to a couple of other trailer companies in 2685 02:30:53.200 --> 02:30:55.319 New York, and they all said, no, not interested in you. 2686 02:30:56.040 --> 02:30:58.600 So I thought, okay, I'll try it. So I declared 2687 02:30:58.719 --> 02:31:03.399 myself in the trailer making business, and another young guy 2688 02:31:03.440 --> 02:31:06.600 that was working at United Artists in their foreign marketing 2689 02:31:06.639 --> 02:31:09.360 department gave me a chance to do a trailer on 2690 02:31:09.440 --> 02:31:12.319 a movie called A Man and a Woman, which they 2691 02:31:12.360 --> 02:31:15.040 had the foreign distribution right song. And I loved that 2692 02:31:15.200 --> 02:31:19.639 movie and it was there was no couldn't use the 2693 02:31:19.680 --> 02:31:22.440 dialogue because it was all in French, but the music 2694 02:31:22.680 --> 02:31:27.639 was dup. So I cut a trailer to that and 2695 02:31:27.719 --> 02:31:30.600 it was really nice, and they liked it, and they 2696 02:31:30.680 --> 02:31:32.600 paid me like a tenth of what they pay a 2697 02:31:32.680 --> 02:31:36.040 regular trailer maker, but I didn't care. And so I 2698 02:31:36.079 --> 02:31:38.239 had done my first trailer and I thought that was 2699 02:31:38.280 --> 02:31:41.719 pretty good, and so I little by little, god another one, 2700 02:31:41.920 --> 02:31:46.040 another one. But then the client relationship part came up, 2701 02:31:46.239 --> 02:31:50.000 and I wasn't getting enough work because there were other 2702 02:31:50.079 --> 02:31:52.040 places where they could go and deal with grown ups, 2703 02:31:52.159 --> 02:31:55.840 not with me. So I wasn't getting much work. And 2704 02:31:57.159 --> 02:31:59.479 down the hall from this place where we rented a 2705 02:31:59.479 --> 02:32:01.879 little editing because everything was on film back then, we 2706 02:32:01.959 --> 02:32:04.639 had a movieola and cutting on film. Down the hall. 2707 02:32:04.719 --> 02:32:09.360 There was a guy who was making pornos and he 2708 02:32:09.840 --> 02:32:11.479 came up and he says, you guys editing in here. 2709 02:32:11.559 --> 02:32:14.360 I said yeah. He says, if you could cut my 2710 02:32:14.520 --> 02:32:16.680 movies and I could go make another movie while you're 2711 02:32:16.760 --> 02:32:19.840 editing this movie. So for five hundred bucks, we cut 2712 02:32:20.079 --> 02:32:22.200 his movie while he was shooting his next movie. And 2713 02:32:22.479 --> 02:32:24.399 he did everything himself. He held the camera, he held 2714 02:32:24.440 --> 02:32:27.000 the light, he wrote the script. And it was garbage, 2715 02:32:27.040 --> 02:32:32.520 but that was soft core porn. This was before deep throat, 2716 02:32:32.559 --> 02:32:36.239 so there wasn't a whole lot of actual insertion or anything. 2717 02:32:36.319 --> 02:32:38.959 So it was a simulated sect. So I did a 2718 02:32:39.040 --> 02:32:42.239 couple of those trailers for those movies, and I edited 2719 02:32:42.239 --> 02:32:44.879 those movies, and then I thought, I got nothing else 2720 02:32:44.920 --> 02:32:46.600 to do, I'll try to make one of those movies. 2721 02:32:46.879 --> 02:32:49.719 So I wrote a cheesy script called It was called 2722 02:32:49.799 --> 02:32:53.639 Mail Order Confidential, and there's about a guy who sells 2723 02:32:53.760 --> 02:32:56.079 porn through the mails, and of course in the end, 2724 02:32:56.120 --> 02:32:58.600 it turns out his wife, unbeknownst to him, was his 2725 02:32:58.680 --> 02:33:03.239 biggest customer. And so I made that movie, and I 2726 02:33:03.319 --> 02:33:06.520 thought I liked the process of doing that, so I 2727 02:33:06.600 --> 02:33:09.200 wrote another movie, and at the time I had done 2728 02:33:09.239 --> 02:33:12.000 the trailer for The Good Debad and The Ugly, so 2729 02:33:12.120 --> 02:33:14.719 I thought, how about a soft core porno based on 2730 02:33:14.840 --> 02:33:18.559 The Good Debed and The Ugly. So we got some 2731 02:33:18.719 --> 02:33:21.600 guys to finance it for like thirty thousand dollars, and 2732 02:33:21.719 --> 02:33:23.319 I got a lot of hippie friends who looked like 2733 02:33:23.360 --> 02:33:25.719 cowboys when you put a hat on them. And we 2734 02:33:25.799 --> 02:33:28.959 made this movie and it was called The Wicked Dies Slow, 2735 02:33:30.360 --> 02:33:32.680 and there was almost no dialogue, and it was like 2736 02:33:32.760 --> 02:33:35.479 a takeoff on an Italian Western. And I was kind 2737 02:33:35.520 --> 02:33:38.680 of directing it, copying Sergio Leoni all his angles and 2738 02:33:38.920 --> 02:33:43.639 the close syrups. But when I cut the movie together, 2739 02:33:43.799 --> 02:33:47.280 because of my trailer making experience, I cut it way 2740 02:33:47.360 --> 02:33:50.559 too short. So they spent their money and they got 2741 02:33:50.600 --> 02:33:52.440 a fifty minute movie. They said, no, this has to 2742 02:33:52.520 --> 02:33:54.920 be like seventy five minutes. I said, well, we're gonna 2743 02:33:54.920 --> 02:33:56.760 have to shoot more stuff. So they gave me some 2744 02:33:56.840 --> 02:33:58.760 more money and we shot some more stuff, and now 2745 02:33:58.799 --> 02:34:01.879 it came out to sixty minutes and they fired, so 2746 02:34:02.000 --> 02:34:03.559 I was fired from them, but I was in the 2747 02:34:03.639 --> 02:34:08.239 movie anyway. I did that. I made The Wicked Diy 2748 02:34:08.280 --> 02:34:11.399 Slow and little by little, I started getting little dribbles 2749 02:34:12.280 --> 02:34:17.040 of trailer work at the same time. And a friend 2750 02:34:17.079 --> 02:34:19.600 of mine who's still a friend now, but he was 2751 02:34:19.760 --> 02:34:24.200 a young, up and coming marketing executive. He worked at 2752 02:34:24.239 --> 02:34:26.559 Embassy Pictures and they had this movie. He called me 2753 02:34:26.600 --> 02:34:29.079 and he said, we got this movie. It's got nobody 2754 02:34:29.159 --> 02:34:31.920 in it, but it's got music, and it's Simon and 2755 02:34:32.000 --> 02:34:35.520 Garfunkel music, and maybe you should do the trailer. So 2756 02:34:35.639 --> 02:34:38.559 I got the trailer for The Graduate and I loved 2757 02:34:38.600 --> 02:34:40.600 the movie, and I thought this could be my big break. 2758 02:34:40.639 --> 02:34:43.440 So I made a good trailer, was long, but a 2759 02:34:43.520 --> 02:34:45.879 really good trailer on The Graduate, and everybody liked it, 2760 02:34:46.719 --> 02:34:49.559 and Mike Nichols saw it and he liked it, and 2761 02:34:49.760 --> 02:34:53.040 everything was going to be great. And then I get 2762 02:34:53.079 --> 02:34:55.879 a call. The trailers out out in the theaters. 2763 02:34:56.639 --> 02:34:57.159 So this is it. 2764 02:34:57.799 --> 02:34:59.840 I get a call Mike Nichols wants the trailer pulled 2765 02:34:59.840 --> 02:35:02.799 off off the screen because some friends of his saw 2766 02:35:02.840 --> 02:35:04.479 it and they said he gave away the whole movie, 2767 02:35:05.319 --> 02:35:07.040 but I really didn't. I gave away a lot of it, 2768 02:35:07.159 --> 02:35:09.840 but not the whole movie. It just ends with him 2769 02:35:09.879 --> 02:35:12.760 banging on the Elan and Elaine, you don't know how 2770 02:35:12.799 --> 02:35:15.760 it's going to end, but anyway, So I went to 2771 02:35:15.879 --> 02:35:19.600 the theater with a recorder and I interviewed people coming 2772 02:35:19.639 --> 02:35:23.600 out who had just seen the trailer, and one after 2773 02:35:23.680 --> 02:35:25.479 another after another, I would say, did you see the 2774 02:35:25.520 --> 02:35:29.680 trailer for this movie? The graduate said yes, did it 2775 02:35:29.760 --> 02:35:31.639 look good? It looked great. Do you feel like you 2776 02:35:31.719 --> 02:35:32.559 saw the whole movie? 2777 02:35:32.719 --> 02:35:32.760 No? 2778 02:35:33.440 --> 02:35:35.520 And I just got all those answers, one after another 2779 02:35:35.559 --> 02:35:39.000 after another, like a hundred interviews, and I called the 2780 02:35:39.319 --> 02:35:42.879 Embassy Pictures and I say, can I take this tape 2781 02:35:42.920 --> 02:35:45.440 and play it for Mike Nichols. We're not going to 2782 02:35:45.479 --> 02:35:46.920 call him. You want to call him, here's his number, 2783 02:35:47.000 --> 02:35:50.399 you call him. So I called Mike Nichols and I say, 2784 02:35:50.920 --> 02:35:52.959 I'm the guy that made the trailer. He goes, oh yeah, 2785 02:35:53.120 --> 02:35:54.479 I go and I hear you want to take it 2786 02:35:54.559 --> 02:35:57.000 down because people said it gave away the whole movie, 2787 02:35:57.040 --> 02:35:59.079 and I said, it really didn't. I made this tape 2788 02:35:59.120 --> 02:36:02.079 of all these people coming out of the theater saying 2789 02:36:02.120 --> 02:36:03.719 that we're dying to see it, and we don't feel 2790 02:36:03.719 --> 02:36:06.159 like we've seen the whole movie. He said, really, yeah, 2791 02:36:06.159 --> 02:36:07.760 I said, can I bring the tape over and play 2792 02:36:07.760 --> 02:36:10.760 it for you? He says no. He said, no, don't 2793 02:36:10.760 --> 02:36:12.360 you want to just listen to it? He goes, if 2794 02:36:12.399 --> 02:36:15.479 it means that much to you, leave it alone. So 2795 02:36:15.559 --> 02:36:18.920 he left it alone. And then the movie was a success, 2796 02:36:19.040 --> 02:36:22.680 and that was my beginning, real beginning as a trailer guy. 2797 02:36:23.159 --> 02:36:25.159 And after that I started to get more work. I 2798 02:36:25.200 --> 02:36:27.479 got Midnight Cowboy, and I got Lion in Winter and 2799 02:36:28.280 --> 02:36:30.920 a bunch of stuff, and I did four hundred trailers 2800 02:36:32.280 --> 02:36:35.079 Cuckoo's Nest and Rocky and all the Woody Allen moves. 2801 02:36:35.639 --> 02:36:38.879 And I love doing it, but the business part, where 2802 02:36:38.920 --> 02:36:41.239 you just had to suck up to clients all day long, 2803 02:36:41.879 --> 02:36:45.479 it was exhausting, and after ten years of it, I 2804 02:36:45.520 --> 02:36:48.719 couldn't do it anymore. Plus, oh, I worked on the 2805 02:36:48.879 --> 02:36:52.440 Cuckoo's Nest and I went to the Oscar party after 2806 02:36:52.559 --> 02:36:55.239 Cuckoo's Nest won all the awards, and somebody came up 2807 02:36:55.239 --> 02:36:56.760 to me at the party and said, so, what did 2808 02:36:56.799 --> 02:36:59.200 you do on the movie? I said, I made the trailer. 2809 02:36:59.239 --> 02:37:01.440 They said, what do you mean made the trailer? I said, 2810 02:37:01.680 --> 02:37:05.319 by the trailer the coming attractions? I thought, the projectionist 2811 02:37:05.399 --> 02:37:08.159 just shows some scenes from the upcoming movie. So I 2812 02:37:08.280 --> 02:37:12.360 realized I'm not famous. I'm never going to be making 2813 02:37:12.399 --> 02:37:14.520 trailers and I want to be known. I want to 2814 02:37:14.520 --> 02:37:16.920 be somebody. So then I decided I'm going to make 2815 02:37:16.920 --> 02:37:19.000 a real movie. And it took me a while, but 2816 02:37:19.079 --> 02:37:22.000 I found a book that I really liked and I 2817 02:37:22.280 --> 02:37:26.680 adapted it and nobody else said bought the rights because 2818 02:37:27.159 --> 02:37:30.600 they were smart and very depressing. Movie. 2819 02:37:31.200 --> 02:37:34.399 Well, you must be talking about natural enemies that movie. 2820 02:37:34.559 --> 02:37:37.360 Oh boy, Yeah, that was rough Man. 2821 02:37:37.479 --> 02:37:40.559 That was real rough At the time, I related to 2822 02:37:40.639 --> 02:37:44.479 it as a person. I was married, not happily but married, 2823 02:37:44.559 --> 02:37:46.799 but I just thought my life wasn't working out and 2824 02:37:46.840 --> 02:37:49.040 I could relate to this man who's just sitting there, 2825 02:37:49.120 --> 02:37:51.840 going I have all this stuff, but it's not working 2826 02:37:51.920 --> 02:37:56.440 for me. Anyway. I made the movie. Nobody played for 2827 02:37:56.559 --> 02:38:00.479 two weeks and disappeared and only recently came back as 2828 02:38:00.479 --> 02:38:04.079 a blu ray and now people like it. But back 2829 02:38:04.120 --> 02:38:07.280 then they called it the grimeced Reaper ever made. In fact, 2830 02:38:08.719 --> 02:38:11.079 in La there's a I don't know what you'd call it, 2831 02:38:11.159 --> 02:38:13.280 a group of people that they have a thing called 2832 02:38:13.799 --> 02:38:18.200 Bleak Week and they show only depressing movies and my 2833 02:38:18.360 --> 02:38:20.719 film was picked to be the first movie in Bleak Week. 2834 02:38:20.840 --> 02:38:21.639 So I went out there. 2835 02:38:22.399 --> 02:38:25.920 I'm so curious about Black Rodeo because I've I was 2836 02:38:26.079 --> 02:38:29.040 looking for that movie forever and I think maybe you 2837 02:38:29.280 --> 02:38:32.760 released the DHS or something. But I've seen it now. 2838 02:38:33.200 --> 02:38:34.760 But how did that project come about? 2839 02:38:35.600 --> 02:38:39.399 Back when I was This was nineteen seventy or seventy one, 2840 02:38:39.840 --> 02:38:42.680 and I was at the height of my trailer making days. 2841 02:38:42.760 --> 02:38:44.360 I worked a lot and got a lot of good 2842 02:38:44.440 --> 02:38:48.520 movies to work on, and it was just I was 2843 02:38:48.600 --> 02:38:52.360 doing trailers for movies like Shaft and Slaughter and all 2844 02:38:52.399 --> 02:38:55.319 these black exploitation movies, and I thought, Wow, maybe there 2845 02:38:55.319 --> 02:38:58.520 should be a black Western. So I started writing one. 2846 02:38:59.200 --> 02:39:00.600 And then a friend of mine called me and said, 2847 02:39:00.879 --> 02:39:03.239 you're still working on that black Western? And I said, yeah, 2848 02:39:04.000 --> 02:39:05.959 There's going to be a Black Rodeo in Harlem in 2849 02:39:06.000 --> 02:39:08.559 a couple of weeks. So I thought, oh, that's amazing, 2850 02:39:09.440 --> 02:39:12.799 went down, spoke to the Black Cowboy Association and got 2851 02:39:12.840 --> 02:39:15.959 the rights to film it, and I got some camera 2852 02:39:16.000 --> 02:39:18.040 guys and we went and we filmed this weekend of 2853 02:39:18.360 --> 02:39:22.479 rodeo and it was a great experience. 2854 02:39:22.879 --> 02:39:23.479 I was like. 2855 02:39:25.040 --> 02:39:28.040 Educated because I was afraid to go through Harlem ever, 2856 02:39:28.879 --> 02:39:31.920 but now I spent two days in Harlem with all 2857 02:39:31.959 --> 02:39:34.079 the people and the kids, and it was so wholesome 2858 02:39:34.159 --> 02:39:39.000 and nice. I wasn't scared anymore. And so that was 2859 02:39:39.040 --> 02:39:42.280 a great experience. And somehow I thought, I'm going to 2860 02:39:42.319 --> 02:39:43.840 put good music in the movie. 2861 02:39:43.879 --> 02:39:44.200 I know that. 2862 02:39:44.479 --> 02:39:47.000 So I got music from for not a lot of money, 2863 02:39:47.040 --> 02:39:50.840 because it was there was no budget. I got Unchained 2864 02:39:50.920 --> 02:39:54.879 my Heart, Ray Charles and Little Richard keep a Knocking 2865 02:39:55.000 --> 02:39:59.120 and a bunch of things like that. And then I thought, 2866 02:39:59.319 --> 02:40:04.040 if I only had an on camera person to talk about, oh, 2867 02:40:04.079 --> 02:40:08.360 the Old West and the cowboys. And I showed an 2868 02:40:08.399 --> 02:40:12.120 assembly of footage to Bill Cosby. I got just got 2869 02:40:12.200 --> 02:40:14.360 it to him and he said it's too boring, and 2870 02:40:14.440 --> 02:40:17.479 he walked out. And then I thought, now what am 2871 02:40:17.520 --> 02:40:19.600 I going to do? But I remember that wood he 2872 02:40:19.680 --> 02:40:22.840 Strode had been a guest at the rodeo and there 2873 02:40:22.879 --> 02:40:24.520 was a picture of him talking to people, and I 2874 02:40:24.600 --> 02:40:26.280 called him up and I said, would you want to 2875 02:40:26.319 --> 02:40:29.000 be the on camera guy? And he goes, I'd love 2876 02:40:29.079 --> 02:40:30.920 to do that, and I know all about the history 2877 02:40:30.959 --> 02:40:33.200 of the Black West. Yeah, he had. So he flew 2878 02:40:33.239 --> 02:40:35.680 into New York and I shot him sitting in a 2879 02:40:36.000 --> 02:40:38.879 rocking chair in a western looking setting and the rocking 2880 02:40:38.959 --> 02:40:42.879 chair was very squeaky and ruined it almost but he 2881 02:40:43.000 --> 02:40:45.399 knew everything. I had notes for him, but he didn't 2882 02:40:45.440 --> 02:40:49.000 need him. He became the on camera sort of guide 2883 02:40:49.120 --> 02:40:53.719 to the Old West. I thought I'd opened the movie 2884 02:40:53.840 --> 02:40:56.840 with a sort of a dig at white cowboys, so 2885 02:40:57.360 --> 02:41:00.879 I sang Home on the Range. I played it and 2886 02:41:00.959 --> 02:41:05.159 sang it really bad, and showed pictures of Gene Autrey 2887 02:41:05.360 --> 02:41:08.639 and John Wayne. It was like, white cowboys are not cool, 2888 02:41:08.959 --> 02:41:13.360 and then we went into the of the black Rodeo song. 2889 02:41:14.479 --> 02:41:16.680 It was good experience. It was a very wholesome thing. 2890 02:41:18.079 --> 02:41:21.200 Got some good reviews, but nobody at that point they'd 2891 02:41:21.319 --> 02:41:25.000 rather pay to see Superfly than to go see some 2892 02:41:25.159 --> 02:41:28.600 cowboys jumping up and down on horses. So it didn't 2893 02:41:28.600 --> 02:41:31.600 do well, but it hung around for years and years, 2894 02:41:31.639 --> 02:41:34.079 and not that long ago it got somebody put it 2895 02:41:34.159 --> 02:41:37.879 out as a VHS or a DVD or whatever, and 2896 02:41:37.959 --> 02:41:39.719 I was not a good businessman, so I always ended 2897 02:41:39.760 --> 02:41:41.239 up giving away the rights for nothing. 2898 02:41:42.159 --> 02:41:44.520 How did you get the gig editing ordinary people? 2899 02:41:45.319 --> 02:41:49.360 So while I was doing trailers a lot, I got 2900 02:41:49.440 --> 02:41:51.680 to work with Sydney Pollack. I got to work with 2901 02:41:52.040 --> 02:41:56.200 Redford on Jeremiah Johnson on three days of the Condor, 2902 02:41:56.559 --> 02:41:59.719 and so we had a relationship through trailers. And then 2903 02:42:00.959 --> 02:42:04.399 he was doing All The President's Men and I did 2904 02:42:04.479 --> 02:42:07.000 the trailers and stuff on All the President's Men. And 2905 02:42:07.120 --> 02:42:09.600 he was having a problem getting the movie cut down 2906 02:42:09.760 --> 02:42:12.200 from two and a half hours, and he said, would 2907 02:42:12.200 --> 02:42:14.200 you do me a favor and try to shorten this 2908 02:42:14.360 --> 02:42:17.440 movie because you used to make short So I said sure. 2909 02:42:17.520 --> 02:42:19.319 So I took a couple of weeks and I cut 2910 02:42:19.399 --> 02:42:22.000 the movie down. It ended up back where it was 2911 02:42:22.040 --> 02:42:25.559 because Alan Pacula wanted it that way, but he could 2912 02:42:25.719 --> 02:42:27.760 see that I was able to cut the movie down. 2913 02:42:29.159 --> 02:42:31.639 And then at a certain point after I did Natural Enemies, 2914 02:42:32.040 --> 02:42:35.040 and he knew how Hobrook. He was thinking of Hal 2915 02:42:35.120 --> 02:42:38.319 Holbrook for the lead in Ordinary People, and he called 2916 02:42:38.360 --> 02:42:39.719 me up and he said, can I see your movie? 2917 02:42:39.719 --> 02:42:41.319 And I said sure, and I sent it to him 2918 02:42:41.360 --> 02:42:43.200 and he called me back and he said, yeah, I 2919 02:42:43.239 --> 02:42:44.879 don't think how's going to work. But you did a 2920 02:42:44.959 --> 02:42:47.959 really good job on the movie. It was the first 2921 02:42:48.040 --> 02:42:52.399 nice thing anybody said about that movie. And so I said, so, 2922 02:42:52.840 --> 02:42:55.360 where are you editing Ordinary People? LA or New York? 2923 02:42:55.399 --> 02:42:56.840 He goes, I'd like to do it in New York. 2924 02:42:56.879 --> 02:42:57.719 And I was in New York. 2925 02:42:58.239 --> 02:43:00.600 I said, I got an editor for you. You're interested. 2926 02:43:00.719 --> 02:43:03.600 He goes, who? And I said me? And he said, 2927 02:43:04.000 --> 02:43:05.959 you wanted to be a director? I said, I love 2928 02:43:06.040 --> 02:43:10.040 to cut ordinary people. So he said okay. A couple 2929 02:43:10.079 --> 02:43:12.280 of minutes later, I get a call from the line producer, 2930 02:43:12.440 --> 02:43:14.520 a guy named Ron Schwery, who I became friends with, 2931 02:43:15.159 --> 02:43:18.280 and he says, is this Jeff Canoe? Yeah, who the 2932 02:43:18.479 --> 02:43:22.360 fuck are you? I go, I do trailers, but I 2933 02:43:22.600 --> 02:43:25.680 did some work for Bob and I offered to be 2934 02:43:25.840 --> 02:43:28.200 the editor and he said okay. He goes, what other 2935 02:43:28.319 --> 02:43:30.559 movies have you cut? Oh? None, just a couple that 2936 02:43:30.639 --> 02:43:33.120 I made. But he goes, we have Sam Mustin he 2937 02:43:33.200 --> 02:43:35.239 did the graduate he did at Rosemary's Baby. What the 2938 02:43:35.280 --> 02:43:37.600 fuck does he want you for? I said, I don't 2939 02:43:37.639 --> 02:43:40.799 know about it. He said, okay, what's your rate? I said, oh, 2940 02:43:40.840 --> 02:43:43.719 I don't have a rate because I never did that before. Anyway, 2941 02:43:44.399 --> 02:43:48.000 I got that job. My rate was twelve hundred a week, 2942 02:43:49.920 --> 02:43:52.680 and I learned a lot and I had a great experience, 2943 02:43:52.920 --> 02:43:55.920 and Bob found the editing process a little boring, so 2944 02:43:56.040 --> 02:43:57.840 I got to do a lot of stuff on my own, 2945 02:43:59.000 --> 02:44:02.520 and I got to learn watching him work with the actors, 2946 02:44:02.559 --> 02:44:05.280 because he was great with the actors, and that was 2947 02:44:05.440 --> 02:44:07.879 just an amazing experience. And so I got it by 2948 02:44:07.920 --> 02:44:10.920 asking for it. He should never have hired me. That 2949 02:44:11.040 --> 02:44:11.680 was a bad move. 2950 02:44:12.799 --> 02:44:14.959 I'm trying to remember. With Eddie Makin's Run. Was that 2951 02:44:15.680 --> 02:44:18.120 the first time that you and Kirk Douglas worked together 2952 02:44:18.120 --> 02:44:19.600 because you worked with him a lot. 2953 02:44:20.399 --> 02:44:25.159 Yeah, Eddie Makin's Run. I had done Natural Enemies already 2954 02:44:26.079 --> 02:44:28.959 that went nowhere then, but I wanted to try again, 2955 02:44:29.000 --> 02:44:31.280 and I found this novel, Eddie Makon's Run, and nobody 2956 02:44:31.319 --> 02:44:33.040 had the rights, so I got the rights and I 2957 02:44:33.120 --> 02:44:36.600 adapted it, and I was trying to get financing, and 2958 02:44:36.799 --> 02:44:40.000 somehow or other, I ended up getting it financed because 2959 02:44:40.000 --> 02:44:44.680 I got this producer named Marty Brigman, who was Alan 2960 02:44:44.799 --> 02:44:48.520 Alda's manager and Al Pacino's manager and produced a lot 2961 02:44:48.520 --> 02:44:51.959 of movies, and he took over and got us financing, 2962 02:44:52.040 --> 02:44:54.799 and then he became my boss and bullied me the 2963 02:44:54.879 --> 02:44:58.479 whole time making that movie. And one of the things 2964 02:44:58.799 --> 02:45:01.040 first he calls me because that movie was about a 2965 02:45:01.120 --> 02:45:04.399 guy with two children who wrongly goes to prison and 2966 02:45:04.479 --> 02:45:06.399 then runs away from prison to be with his family. 2967 02:45:07.159 --> 02:45:08.360 He calls me up one day and he goes, what 2968 02:45:08.719 --> 02:45:11.479 you ever watch Dukes of Hazzard. I go, no, there's 2969 02:45:11.479 --> 02:45:13.680 this guy on Dukes of Hazzard named John Schneider. I 2970 02:45:13.760 --> 02:45:15.399 want him to play the lead. I go, but he's 2971 02:45:15.799 --> 02:45:18.879 twenty years old. This is about a man with two children. Yeah, 2972 02:45:19.000 --> 02:45:22.000 well tough. He says, you're going down to Atlanta, and 2973 02:45:22.120 --> 02:45:25.000 if John Schneider approves you, he's going to be the 2974 02:45:25.040 --> 02:45:27.440 star and you can direct the movie. So I go 2975 02:45:27.600 --> 02:45:29.920 down there and I get approved, and then I go 2976 02:45:30.079 --> 02:45:33.280 back and I was thinking the cop should be the 2977 02:45:33.319 --> 02:45:36.760 antithesis of a Southern guy, so let's try to get 2978 02:45:36.920 --> 02:45:41.319 Peter Boyle or Gene Hackman. And he goes, you've gotten 2979 02:45:41.360 --> 02:45:43.239 on a plane. Tomorrow you're going to see Kirk Douglas. 2980 02:45:43.360 --> 02:45:43.520 I go. 2981 02:45:43.639 --> 02:45:45.879 I love Kirk Douglas, but for what he goes, he's 2982 02:45:45.920 --> 02:45:48.120 going to play the cop. I go, I don't know that. 2983 02:45:48.239 --> 02:45:52.239 He doesn't seem New Yorky enough for the cop. He says, 2984 02:45:52.280 --> 02:45:53.760 where you're going? So I flew out there and I 2985 02:45:53.840 --> 02:45:56.840 met with Kirk Douglas and he had watched Natural Enemies, 2986 02:45:57.680 --> 02:45:59.920 and maybe he was only the second person that ever 2987 02:46:00.040 --> 02:46:03.159 said anything nice about Natural Enemies, and he said, I 2988 02:46:03.360 --> 02:46:05.360 liked your movie. I think it was a little one note, 2989 02:46:05.440 --> 02:46:08.799 but I really liked it. So he agreed to do 2990 02:46:09.799 --> 02:46:13.760 Eddie Macon's Run, and I learned a lot from him 2991 02:46:14.239 --> 02:46:18.719 making that movie, and then we became friends and did 2992 02:46:18.920 --> 02:46:22.799 more things together. Tough Guys get the movie together, and 2993 02:46:23.000 --> 02:46:25.879 Peter McGregor Scott had taught me always preview the movie 2994 02:46:26.440 --> 02:46:29.319 with audiences before you show it to the studio, and 2995 02:46:29.399 --> 02:46:32.159 you get to tighten it up, and so I always 2996 02:46:32.200 --> 02:46:34.520 did that, and so I had a number of good 2997 02:46:34.559 --> 02:46:40.040 screenings with test audiences on Tough Guys. And then Michael 2998 02:46:40.079 --> 02:46:41.959 Eiser said I want to see the movie. So I 2999 02:46:42.040 --> 02:46:43.639 took it over there and we had a screening with 3000 02:46:43.719 --> 02:46:46.799 a test audience and all the Disney executors are there 3001 02:46:46.840 --> 02:46:50.399 with their pads and their pencils, and I was like 3002 02:46:50.479 --> 02:46:53.200 really nervous. We come out of the screen room and 3003 02:46:53.559 --> 02:46:56.799 Michael says, let's go across the way to my office 3004 02:46:56.879 --> 02:46:58.959 to our conference room. I go to be a favorite. 3005 02:46:59.399 --> 02:47:02.200 I'm really I wound up from the screening and can 3006 02:47:02.239 --> 02:47:05.000 we do this tomorrow? Oh, let's go over there right now, okay. 3007 02:47:05.079 --> 02:47:06.319 So we go over there and I see all the 3008 02:47:06.360 --> 02:47:09.399 guys with their notepads, and we go into their conference 3009 02:47:09.479 --> 02:47:14.920 room and everybody it's getting ready to be a firing squad, right, 3010 02:47:15.639 --> 02:47:18.079 And he gets a phone called Michael Eiser and he 3011 02:47:18.159 --> 02:47:20.120 leaves the room and these guys are all aren't getting 3012 02:47:20.159 --> 02:47:23.000 ready to kill me. And he comes back in he goes, look, 3013 02:47:23.600 --> 02:47:25.360 I think there's some things about this movie that we 3014 02:47:25.440 --> 02:47:27.600 could change, but you know what, I think it's good. 3015 02:47:27.719 --> 02:47:29.959 Let's just leave it alone. And all the pads go 3016 02:47:30.079 --> 02:47:34.280 under the table. So he saved that movie that they 3017 02:47:34.319 --> 02:47:36.479 didn't hack it up or anything. A couple of years later, 3018 02:47:36.600 --> 02:47:40.319 via Aworshowski, we have a screening in I Forget somewhere 3019 02:47:40.360 --> 02:47:43.079 in the Valley, north Ridge or somewhere like that. And 3020 02:47:44.000 --> 02:47:45.799 I had some test screenings of the movie, so I 3021 02:47:45.879 --> 02:47:49.000 knew it played pretty well for audiences. So now we 3022 02:47:49.120 --> 02:47:53.840 have vi Awshowski. And within the first tops fifteen minutes, 3023 02:47:53.879 --> 02:47:56.719 a guy I see a guy. The audience is listening intently. 3024 02:47:56.959 --> 02:47:58.840 A guy gets up and starts walking up the aisle. 3025 02:47:59.159 --> 02:48:03.040 Big guy walks right past me. It's Michael Eisda and 3026 02:48:04.159 --> 02:48:06.360 maybe he's just going to the bathroom. Maybe he's just 3027 02:48:06.440 --> 02:48:09.920 going for a soda. He never comes back. The next day, 3028 02:48:09.920 --> 02:48:11.920 the word comes down and Michael doesn't like the movie. 3029 02:48:12.719 --> 02:48:16.639 And that was the opposite of the tough guys reaction shorter. 3030 02:48:16.840 --> 02:48:20.879 He wants it this, he wants it that. So that's 3031 02:48:20.920 --> 02:48:22.360 why I have this color hair. 3032 02:48:23.200 --> 02:48:25.920 Tell me how you got the gig for Revenge of 3033 02:48:25.959 --> 02:48:28.840 the Nerds, because that seemed to really just jettison you. 3034 02:48:29.719 --> 02:48:32.879 So I had made all these this depressing, two depressing movies, 3035 02:48:33.520 --> 02:48:35.600 and no one would hire me to do a comedy. 3036 02:48:35.639 --> 02:48:37.799 I didn't want to do a comedy. And my friend 3037 02:48:38.120 --> 02:48:42.120 Joe Wizanne, the producer who had done stuff with me 3038 02:48:42.239 --> 02:48:45.440 before at for trailers, he calls me up ononin Dan. 3039 02:48:45.479 --> 02:48:47.120 He goes, you won't believe this. I just got a 3040 02:48:47.239 --> 02:48:51.559 job as head of production in twentieth Century Fox. I go, wow, Joe, 3041 02:48:51.760 --> 02:48:54.559 he had been an agent and a producer. That's amazing. 3042 02:48:54.600 --> 02:48:57.200 He goes, I'll probably get fired within a year, but 3043 02:48:58.120 --> 02:49:00.559 I can hire some friends. So I'm going to send 3044 02:49:00.600 --> 02:49:01.959 you some scripts and see if you want to do 3045 02:49:02.079 --> 02:49:05.239 one of these movies. So he sends me Bachelor Party 3046 02:49:05.559 --> 02:49:07.479 and another thing called Give Me An f about a 3047 02:49:07.600 --> 02:49:11.959 cheerleader camp, all comedies, and this Revenge of the Nerds thing. 3048 02:49:13.319 --> 02:49:16.040 So I read Bachelor Party and I thought, yeah, it's 3049 02:49:16.079 --> 02:49:20.600 all right. The cheerleader thing was disgusting. And then I 3050 02:49:20.760 --> 02:49:22.600 wasn't even going to read Revenge of the Nerds because 3051 02:49:22.639 --> 02:49:25.319 it sounded so stupid, because nerds weren't a thing yet, 3052 02:49:25.440 --> 02:49:28.879 that word. But I read it and within three pages 3053 02:49:28.920 --> 02:49:31.920 I thought, oh my god, that's me arriving at college 3054 02:49:32.040 --> 02:49:35.399 feeling like I don't belong and that nobody likes me, 3055 02:49:35.920 --> 02:49:37.680 and I could relate to that. So I said, okay, 3056 02:49:38.159 --> 02:49:39.959 I could do this one. He goes, here's the problem. 3057 02:49:40.040 --> 02:49:42.360 The producers don't even want to meet with you, but 3058 02:49:42.440 --> 02:49:44.680 I'm going to force them to meet with you. So 3059 02:49:44.760 --> 02:49:47.239 you got to fly out here. So I fly out 3060 02:49:47.280 --> 02:49:50.159 and I do whatever homework you can do to get 3061 02:49:50.200 --> 02:49:52.920 a job directing, and I go and meet with these 3062 02:49:52.959 --> 02:49:56.319 guys and takes about two hours. Would seem to hit 3063 02:49:56.360 --> 02:49:59.440 it off, see things the same way. And then I 3064 02:49:59.520 --> 02:50:01.159 fly back in New York and I get a call 3065 02:50:01.239 --> 02:50:03.879 from Joe, my friend, and he says, so, what happened 3066 02:50:03.920 --> 02:50:07.600 at the meeting? I said, it lasted a long time, 3067 02:50:07.680 --> 02:50:09.879 and I think we really see things the same way, 3068 02:50:09.959 --> 02:50:12.079 so I think it went well. He goes, you made 3069 02:50:12.120 --> 02:50:12.680 one mistake. 3070 02:50:13.639 --> 02:50:14.399 I go what. 3071 02:50:14.799 --> 02:50:17.159 He goes. You said Risky Business was a better movie 3072 02:50:17.200 --> 02:50:21.840 than Animal House. I said it is. Animal House was 3073 02:50:21.920 --> 02:50:23.559 funny and it made a lot of money, but Risky 3074 02:50:23.600 --> 02:50:26.280 Business is a better movie. What kind of a movie 3075 02:50:26.360 --> 02:50:28.280 are you're going to make of this? I go, this 3076 02:50:28.479 --> 02:50:31.520 is more like Animal House. But I'm still want to 3077 02:50:31.559 --> 02:50:33.959 make as good a movie as I can make, and 3078 02:50:34.319 --> 02:50:37.120 I don't want the characters to be cartoons. I want 3079 02:50:37.159 --> 02:50:40.000 them to be people that you can relate to, and 3080 02:50:40.159 --> 02:50:42.760 that's why you'll root for them. What kind of a 3081 02:50:42.840 --> 02:50:45.079 movie are you're going to make? I go, I know 3082 02:50:45.159 --> 02:50:47.440 what you're trying to get me to say, Joe, animal House, sir, 3083 02:50:47.639 --> 02:50:50.799 but I'm not going to do that. He goes. I 3084 02:50:50.879 --> 02:50:53.440 want you to make a movie. Not only will it 3085 02:50:53.559 --> 02:50:55.840 not play at Cinema two in New York, but you'll 3086 02:50:55.879 --> 02:50:58.680 never be allowed in there again. I go, all right, Joe, 3087 02:50:58.680 --> 02:51:01.600 I'll tell you what. How about if I make a 3088 02:51:01.680 --> 02:51:03.719 movie that I'm ashamed to put my name on. He goes, 3089 02:51:03.760 --> 02:51:06.440 You got the job, That's how I got the job. 3090 02:51:07.440 --> 02:51:10.440 And every actor that's in the movie, none of them 3091 02:51:10.479 --> 02:51:12.000 wanted to be in it because they all thought it 3092 02:51:12.120 --> 02:51:14.760 was going to be stupid, and so I had to 3093 02:51:14.799 --> 02:51:16.559 promise them, no, we're going to make them real, and 3094 02:51:16.639 --> 02:51:19.920 we're not gonna the goofy stuff is there, but they're 3095 02:51:19.959 --> 02:51:22.799 gonna be real characters that you can care about. And 3096 02:51:24.040 --> 02:51:27.520 it worked out. Then, Oh, my friend Joe lost his 3097 02:51:27.639 --> 02:51:32.040 job before the movie opened, and this guy, Norman Leevy 3098 02:51:32.079 --> 02:51:34.559 came over from Columbia Pictures and took over a Fox. 3099 02:51:35.680 --> 02:51:38.360 And I in a restaurant somewhere and a guy walks 3100 02:51:38.399 --> 02:51:39.840 up to me and goes, hey, I hear your movie's 3101 02:51:39.840 --> 02:51:43.479 a piece of shit. I go, who'd you hear that from? 3102 02:51:43.559 --> 02:51:45.959 He says Norman Levy, the new head of production at Fox. 3103 02:51:46.239 --> 02:51:48.040 I go, that's great anyway. So I had to go 3104 02:51:48.120 --> 02:51:50.959 through this whole process of proving this movie wasn't a 3105 02:51:50.959 --> 02:51:53.120 piece of shit, which he didn't want to hear. And 3106 02:51:53.239 --> 02:51:55.520 it was supposed to open in seven hundred theaters. He 3107 02:51:55.559 --> 02:51:57.600 cut it down to one hundred, and he cut the 3108 02:51:57.680 --> 02:52:02.280 marketing budget and it was disaster. But for some reason, 3109 02:52:02.319 --> 02:52:05.319 that movie opened and didn't die. It just went on 3110 02:52:05.879 --> 02:52:10.639 and on and it ended up being successful. So I 3111 02:52:10.680 --> 02:52:13.120 had gone from making the most depressing movies ever to 3112 02:52:13.239 --> 02:52:15.959 making a hit comedy, and after that, I couldn't get 3113 02:52:15.959 --> 02:52:20.159 a serious movie job. I was a comedy director. I 3114 02:52:20.239 --> 02:52:22.479 was always trying to work my way back to real 3115 02:52:22.559 --> 02:52:26.399 stories or whatever, but I don't know. So I did Gotcha, 3116 02:52:26.520 --> 02:52:29.799 which was a comedy, but it also had reality to it. 3117 02:52:30.200 --> 02:52:34.559 There was real stakes. And then Tough Guys, which was 3118 02:52:34.680 --> 02:52:40.000 Kirk and Bert. Again, it's a comedy, it's a gimmicky movie, 3119 02:52:40.159 --> 02:52:42.360 but those guys are not going to play it goofy 3120 02:52:42.520 --> 02:52:44.000 and that kind of worked out. 3121 02:52:44.799 --> 02:52:45.319 And then. 3122 02:52:47.040 --> 02:52:49.200 There's a long story in the middle there where I 3123 02:52:49.319 --> 02:52:53.719 found a script that nobody wanted to make and I 3124 02:52:53.959 --> 02:52:57.360 loved it, and I got it set up somewhere and 3125 02:52:58.360 --> 02:53:01.959 as a low budget movie, and I cast it and 3126 02:53:02.479 --> 02:53:06.760 it was Dead Poets Society. Right, So I'm now literally 3127 02:53:07.159 --> 02:53:09.719 two weeks away from starting to shoot on Dead Poets 3128 02:53:09.760 --> 02:53:14.120 Society with Ethan Hawke. Jennifer Connelly was playing one of 3129 02:53:14.159 --> 02:53:17.799 the girls. It was going to be great. And I 3130 02:53:18.319 --> 02:53:21.479 had this experience with Robin Williams, who read it and 3131 02:53:21.559 --> 02:53:25.200 he liked it, but his manager wouldn't let him work 3132 02:53:25.239 --> 02:53:29.760 with me for whatever reason, so he wouldn't do it no, 3133 02:53:29.959 --> 02:53:33.120 Robin Williams. They give me the green light. We're going 3134 02:53:33.159 --> 02:53:37.399 to shoot at Non Union in Georgia, and I start 3135 02:53:37.440 --> 02:53:40.799 to get that. They start sending me memos, Let's change 3136 02:53:40.840 --> 02:53:46.680 the title, let's get a bigger name. And I went 3137 02:53:46.719 --> 02:53:49.719 through a lot of casting things with them. Two guys 3138 02:53:49.799 --> 02:53:51.600 came in that I would have said yes, that I 3139 02:53:51.680 --> 02:53:54.399 did say yes to, and Disney said no. One was 3140 02:53:54.479 --> 02:53:58.200 Liam Neeson and the other was Alec Baldwin. They wouldn't 3141 02:53:58.239 --> 02:54:01.479 hire either of those guys. They really wanted Robin Williams, 3142 02:54:01.799 --> 02:54:03.479 and Robin Williams didn't want to do it with me. 3143 02:54:04.280 --> 02:54:06.000 I should have seen the writing on the wall, but 3144 02:54:06.559 --> 02:54:09.920 I didn't have that experience. So I'm down there waiting 3145 02:54:10.000 --> 02:54:15.680 to shoot like Sunrising behind the school. And oh before 3146 02:54:15.719 --> 02:54:17.440 I went down there for that trip, I thought, if 3147 02:54:17.440 --> 02:54:20.559 I don't get them a name, I'm gonna lose this job. 3148 02:54:21.120 --> 02:54:25.639 So I sent the script to Jack Nicholson, Dustin Hoffman, 3149 02:54:25.840 --> 02:54:29.719 and Harrison Ford. Don't hear anything from Parrison Ford. Jack 3150 02:54:29.799 --> 02:54:33.719 Nicholson passes, don't hear from Dustin Hoffman. So I'm down 3151 02:54:33.799 --> 02:54:35.600 in Atlanta and I get a call from my agent 3152 02:54:35.680 --> 02:54:38.760 and he says, Dustin Hoffman's person whoever that is, read 3153 02:54:38.799 --> 02:54:41.600 the script and Dustin's going to read it tomorrow. They 3154 02:54:41.719 --> 02:54:45.479 like it. That's great. Next day comes by, I get 3155 02:54:45.520 --> 02:54:49.319 a call from Michael Eisner, who never calls me. Jeff, Hey, 3156 02:54:49.360 --> 02:54:52.680 Mike Eisner. What's going on, Michael? I just want to 3157 02:54:52.719 --> 02:54:55.239 let you know Dustin Hoffman read the script. He really 3158 02:54:55.360 --> 02:54:57.040 likes it, and he's coming to my house for dinner 3159 02:54:57.040 --> 02:54:59.200 tonight and he's never come to my house for dinner ever. 3160 02:55:00.120 --> 02:55:02.920 I go, oh, that's great. And then the next day 3161 02:55:02.920 --> 02:55:04.600 they call me and they say you better fly back 3162 02:55:04.680 --> 02:55:07.879 here because we got Dustin wants to do it, but 3163 02:55:08.040 --> 02:55:10.959 not with you. And this is after I did the 3164 02:55:11.000 --> 02:55:14.920 trailer on the Graduate and Midnight Cowboy and Stroll not 3165 02:55:15.079 --> 02:55:17.440 with me. It was must have his manager or agent 3166 02:55:17.559 --> 02:55:19.600 must be saying, don't this guy's know? But nobody's the 3167 02:55:19.639 --> 02:55:23.319 wrong director. Anyway. I got fired off Dead Poets after 3168 02:55:23.399 --> 02:55:26.440 I got up, So after that I thought I got 3169 02:55:26.559 --> 02:55:30.040 to have a hit. Obviously, because I Tough Guys wasn't 3170 02:55:30.079 --> 02:55:33.040 a big hit. So I heard about this movie called 3171 02:55:33.079 --> 02:55:39.719 Troop Beverly Hills, where a director named Howard Deef was 3172 02:55:39.799 --> 02:55:42.200 directing that movie. But he's leaving that movie to go 3173 02:55:42.319 --> 02:55:45.840 do this other movie called dream Team, and so that 3174 02:55:46.000 --> 02:55:48.079 job is open, so I throw my hat in the 3175 02:55:48.159 --> 02:55:50.440 ring and I get the job of Troop Beverly Hills, 3176 02:55:51.399 --> 02:55:54.639 even though I don't think I was the right choice 3177 02:55:54.680 --> 02:55:57.559 for that, but I ended up doing a good job 3178 02:55:57.639 --> 02:56:00.959 on that movie. It didn't make money, but it had 3179 02:56:01.000 --> 02:56:04.000 a long life in video and people still liked that movie. 3180 02:56:04.799 --> 02:56:08.079 So I did that, and then after that I wasn't 3181 02:56:08.079 --> 02:56:13.079 getting jobs because that wasn't successful. Whatever. And you get 3182 02:56:13.120 --> 02:56:15.639 to a point where you have heat, you lose the heat, 3183 02:56:16.120 --> 02:56:18.799 and now the age your agent's not that interested anymore. 3184 02:56:18.920 --> 02:56:22.920 So I had been with William Morris. I ended up 3185 02:56:22.920 --> 02:56:25.319 at the Grocery Agency, and the Groce agency got me 3186 02:56:25.440 --> 02:56:28.760 the Kathleen Turner job on Virwa and I had a 3187 02:56:28.799 --> 02:56:32.440 great experience making that movie and loved the casting and 3188 02:56:33.120 --> 02:56:35.360 everything about it was good, except nobody went to see it. 3189 02:56:36.120 --> 02:56:38.600 So that was it for me in Hollywood. 3190 02:56:39.479 --> 02:56:42.399 Sounds like Kamplin. Turner was already attached by the time 3191 02:56:42.440 --> 02:56:42.920 you got there. 3192 02:56:43.680 --> 02:56:45.280 Yeah, and I had to go and audition for her, 3193 02:56:45.360 --> 02:56:48.159 and I got the job. We got along and whatever, 3194 02:56:48.479 --> 02:56:51.600 and we got we worked together great, and there was 3195 02:56:51.639 --> 02:56:54.200 a cold, big committee on that movie. There were like 3196 02:56:54.440 --> 02:56:57.879 five producers and two studio execs on the set at 3197 02:56:57.920 --> 02:57:01.799 all times. And because I got along well with Kathleen, 3198 02:57:02.760 --> 02:57:08.159 they couldn't push me around too much and had good actors. 3199 02:57:08.239 --> 02:57:11.600 And I just watched the movie today. I'm happy with 3200 02:57:11.680 --> 02:57:15.479 the movie. There was just no way to sell it. 3201 02:57:15.520 --> 02:57:17.840 They couldn't figure and I will say that the title 3202 02:57:17.920 --> 02:57:18.920 may have been a problem. 3203 02:57:20.000 --> 02:57:20.520 So that was that. 3204 02:57:21.319 --> 02:57:23.479 I know. There were also a lot of writers on that. 3205 02:57:23.559 --> 02:57:26.239 At least three Where was. 3206 02:57:28.159 --> 02:57:28.319 On that? 3207 02:57:28.399 --> 02:57:31.799 At least three where was the script at? 3208 02:57:31.840 --> 02:57:35.680 When you came aboard There was a writer named Edgar 3209 02:57:36.079 --> 02:57:39.360 Somebody or other serious mystery writer, and he did the 3210 02:57:39.440 --> 02:57:43.239 first adaptation. Because the novels were basically detective stories, they 3211 02:57:43.239 --> 02:57:46.760 weren't comedies. She had a tone in her description of 3212 02:57:46.879 --> 02:57:50.719 things that had comedic but they were the bad guys 3213 02:57:50.799 --> 02:57:56.639 in violence, and she was the detective. Anyway, The script 3214 02:57:56.760 --> 02:58:00.639 was a tri Star and then the producer Jeff Lewie 3215 02:58:00.680 --> 02:58:02.680 and his guys, he had like several people who work 3216 02:58:02.719 --> 02:58:05.000 for him. They would put it in turnaround at Trystar 3217 02:58:05.319 --> 02:58:09.200 and they moved it to Disney, and Disney, who I 3218 02:58:09.319 --> 02:58:12.520 had now had a bad experience with because of Dead 3219 02:58:12.559 --> 02:58:16.040 Poets Touchstone. This guy David Hoberman, who is the head 3220 02:58:16.079 --> 02:58:19.600 of Touchstone, he didn't want any part of me. But 3221 02:58:19.959 --> 02:58:23.079 this Hollywood Pictures was this other company that was at Disney. 3222 02:58:23.520 --> 02:58:27.520 And because David didn't like me, ricardomestris if Hollywood Pictures 3223 02:58:27.559 --> 02:58:31.040 did like me, And so I got to do that job. 3224 02:58:32.799 --> 02:58:35.920 And again I feel pretty good about the movie. And 3225 02:58:37.159 --> 02:58:39.479 every movie is a war and every movie is an education. 3226 02:58:39.680 --> 02:58:43.360 And that was another one. But before the movie opened, 3227 02:58:43.440 --> 02:58:46.840 there was a thing called Premier magazine and they'd do 3228 02:58:46.959 --> 02:58:50.799 a summer prediction, and their summer prediction was and it 3229 02:58:50.920 --> 02:58:53.760 was always like who stands to gain? Who stands to lose? 3230 02:58:54.479 --> 02:58:57.760 And with the Irishovski, who stands to gain? The producers, 3231 02:58:58.040 --> 02:59:02.799 Kathleen Turner, the studio because if this movie succeeds, they'll 3232 02:59:02.879 --> 02:59:06.079 have it like a franchise. Like James Bond, who stands 3233 02:59:06.120 --> 02:59:09.920 to lose. The director because if that movie doesn't succeed, 3234 02:59:10.120 --> 02:59:13.200 it's his fall. I got all the credit for the failure. 3235 02:59:14.760 --> 02:59:17.440 When you said there's so many producers on sett and everything, 3236 02:59:17.719 --> 02:59:19.639 it feels like there was a lot of pressure on 3237 02:59:19.760 --> 02:59:20.079 you for this. 3238 02:59:21.079 --> 02:59:24.159 I got along well with Jeff Lury and his people. 3239 02:59:24.399 --> 02:59:27.120 Except for a couple of them, everybody has an opinion. 3240 02:59:27.920 --> 02:59:31.920 Then there was the studio had appointed their own representative 3241 02:59:32.079 --> 02:59:36.440 on the set, and she was the one carrying notes 3242 02:59:36.520 --> 02:59:40.000 back from the other, so that there were every weekend 3243 02:59:40.040 --> 02:59:43.479 there was like it's long, several hours meeting with studio 3244 02:59:43.559 --> 02:59:45.239 notes and trying to figure out how to deal with 3245 02:59:45.319 --> 02:59:47.920 them and how are we going to sell this to 3246 02:59:48.079 --> 02:59:52.680 Kathleen because if she said no, then that's it. If 3247 02:59:52.719 --> 02:59:54.920 she want to make this change or do this scene. 3248 02:59:55.319 --> 02:59:58.520 So she saved the movie in sense because she made 3249 02:59:58.639 --> 03:00:01.440 good choices as far as it goes. She didn't save 3250 03:00:01.479 --> 03:00:04.440 the movie at the box office, but she worked the 3251 03:00:04.520 --> 03:00:06.719 movie work because they kept trying to turn it into 3252 03:00:06.760 --> 03:00:11.680 Paper Moon, a funny relationship between this young girl and 3253 03:00:11.840 --> 03:00:14.399 this female detective, that's all. They were trying to push 3254 03:00:14.479 --> 03:00:17.559 it towards comedy. But they had a mother and her 3255 03:00:17.680 --> 03:00:20.600 husband trying to kill the daughter, and it was a 3256 03:00:20.680 --> 03:00:24.079 serious and her dad was blown up at the beginning, 3257 03:00:24.639 --> 03:00:27.319 so it was not a comedy, but it had comedic 3258 03:00:27.440 --> 03:00:28.159 elements to it. 3259 03:00:29.159 --> 03:00:32.799 He the Kathleen Turner's already attached to it. Who else 3260 03:00:33.040 --> 03:00:35.559 is already cast for this or did you help the 3261 03:00:35.680 --> 03:00:36.520 casting process? 3262 03:00:36.840 --> 03:00:39.840 Oh yeah, just Kathleen. I got the job. And then 3263 03:00:40.440 --> 03:00:43.280 casting is always it's a little bit of a committee thing, 3264 03:00:43.399 --> 03:00:49.040 but the casting person gives you suggestions. Some casting people 3265 03:00:49.079 --> 03:00:51.559 don't like you to shop as they say, they like 3266 03:00:51.639 --> 03:00:54.959 you to accept who they give you. So Wayne Knight 3267 03:00:55.200 --> 03:01:00.120 plays the kind of bad guy, and Stanley Tucci came 3268 03:01:00.159 --> 03:01:01.559 in and read for that, and he was great, and 3269 03:01:01.639 --> 03:01:06.399 I wanted him, but Katzenberg wanted Wayne Knight, and he 3270 03:01:06.559 --> 03:01:09.000 came and read and he was good, and I wasn't. 3271 03:01:09.000 --> 03:01:09.479 At that point. 3272 03:01:09.520 --> 03:01:11.719 I had learned to shut up and not argue that, 3273 03:01:12.120 --> 03:01:14.479 not to speak truth to power. But I learned it 3274 03:01:14.520 --> 03:01:18.639 a little late, that's all. So there was and Charles Derney. 3275 03:01:18.680 --> 03:01:20.360 I had worked with him on Tough Guys, and so 3276 03:01:20.479 --> 03:01:23.840 that was great. And the guy who dies at the beginning, 3277 03:01:23.879 --> 03:01:26.760 Steven Meadows, was brand new and we read a lot 3278 03:01:26.799 --> 03:01:30.920 of people on that, Bruce Greenwood and Jack I forget 3279 03:01:30.959 --> 03:01:33.760 his name, Scalia or whatever, but I really liked Steven 3280 03:01:33.799 --> 03:01:36.719 Meadows and they let me hire him and he was good. 3281 03:01:37.840 --> 03:01:41.680 And the girl's mother was an actress named Nancy Paul, 3282 03:01:41.719 --> 03:01:44.360 who I with the redheaded woman. I thought she was great, 3283 03:01:44.719 --> 03:01:48.680 and the two older brothers. Everybody was really good actors, 3284 03:01:49.440 --> 03:01:52.479 and I didn't have them in my pocket. But whoever 3285 03:01:52.520 --> 03:01:54.600 the casting person was, I'd have to look it up again, 3286 03:01:54.680 --> 03:01:56.879 but they presented good people. 3287 03:01:57.639 --> 03:01:59.639 I always liked j O. Saunders. 3288 03:02:01.159 --> 03:02:03.719 Jay was in Eddie Macon's Run. Jay was one of 3289 03:02:03.760 --> 03:02:06.719 the two bad guys who hanged John Schneider in their 3290 03:02:06.760 --> 03:02:10.639 living room, and we got to be pretty good friends 3291 03:02:10.840 --> 03:02:13.159 on that movie. And then I offered him the coach 3292 03:02:13.319 --> 03:02:16.079 job in Revenge of the Nerds, but he said it 3293 03:02:16.200 --> 03:02:19.799 sounded stupid, so he didn't do it. So then he 3294 03:02:19.959 --> 03:02:22.600 was sorry that he didn't do it. And then I 3295 03:02:22.719 --> 03:02:25.799 offered him the Worshovski thing and he did it and 3296 03:02:26.440 --> 03:02:28.520 Kathleen approved him, and it was great. 3297 03:02:29.280 --> 03:02:30.920 Did you actually shoot that in Chicago? 3298 03:02:31.559 --> 03:02:36.639 Mostly? Yeah, actually almost entirely, But at the last minute, 3299 03:02:37.239 --> 03:02:40.479 Chicago was great because here's this river and no one's 3300 03:02:40.479 --> 03:02:43.120 ever shot a boat chase on that river before, and 3301 03:02:43.239 --> 03:02:46.639 I thought, here's my French connection moment, and so did 3302 03:02:46.719 --> 03:02:51.639 that and that was fun and great. But then Disney 3303 03:02:52.079 --> 03:02:55.600 sort of changed their mind about the ending of the movie. 3304 03:02:56.200 --> 03:02:58.760 It wasn't a big enough ending because it was just 3305 03:02:59.200 --> 03:03:02.000 at the dock and she goes into water to rescue 3306 03:03:02.079 --> 03:03:04.440 the girl. They thought it was too small, and they 3307 03:03:04.479 --> 03:03:08.559 had done this movie's stakeout with Dreyfus and Emilio Estevez 3308 03:03:08.639 --> 03:03:11.760 and that ended in a big I don't even know what. 3309 03:03:12.000 --> 03:03:15.399 It was, a factory where they were burnie or cutting 3310 03:03:15.559 --> 03:03:17.920 wood or it was all these machines they wanted that 3311 03:03:18.440 --> 03:03:22.120 they wanted ending, so they brought in a writer named 3312 03:03:22.200 --> 03:03:26.399 Nick Feel. I never even met him. He worked with 3313 03:03:26.479 --> 03:03:29.280 the studio people. He wrote them a new ending. The 3314 03:03:29.399 --> 03:03:32.319 producers and I and Kathleen read that and said no, 3315 03:03:33.040 --> 03:03:35.879 So that was out. But in the meantime they made 3316 03:03:35.959 --> 03:03:39.319 us move back from Chicago to shoot the ending. And 3317 03:03:40.159 --> 03:03:42.159 it was too cold in Chicago now because they had 3318 03:03:42.239 --> 03:03:45.399 stalled rewriting the ending whatever, So we shot the original ending, 3319 03:03:45.479 --> 03:03:48.520 but we shot it in San Pedro, but it's the 3320 03:03:48.559 --> 03:03:49.399 same ending. 3321 03:03:50.639 --> 03:03:52.959 I always find that the Stephen Root character is very 3322 03:03:53.000 --> 03:03:55.479 interesting in that it feels like it comes out of nowhere. 3323 03:03:56.280 --> 03:03:58.680 It was always there, the sausage factory guy. It was 3324 03:03:59.159 --> 03:04:01.399 the setup that met her pigs. I guess you know, 3325 03:04:02.319 --> 03:04:04.520 he was nobody at the time. I mean, he's done 3326 03:04:04.559 --> 03:04:07.399 so many things since Nati's Yeah, that was like a 3327 03:04:07.440 --> 03:04:10.319 half a day shoot with him, but he was great. 3328 03:04:10.879 --> 03:04:12.959 Do you tend to work with the same people behind 3329 03:04:13.040 --> 03:04:13.440 the camera? 3330 03:04:14.360 --> 03:04:17.120 Try because it's a good thing to do, but there's 3331 03:04:17.120 --> 03:04:20.639 always politics behind it. Like the DP who shot Nerds 3332 03:04:21.600 --> 03:04:26.239 and Gotcha Troop Beverly Hills, they wouldn't hire him. They 3333 03:04:26.319 --> 03:04:28.840 wanted their own guy for Troop Beverly Hills. And Shelley 3334 03:04:28.959 --> 03:04:31.520 Long had a guy she wanted because he only knows 3335 03:04:31.559 --> 03:04:34.639 how to photograph women. So King Baggett who shot Nerds 3336 03:04:34.680 --> 03:04:37.959 and Gotcha, they wouldn't hire him, and tough guys. He 3337 03:04:38.000 --> 03:04:40.559 shot three movies for me in a row and he 3338 03:04:40.680 --> 03:04:43.959 was great. But it didn't And at a certain point 3339 03:04:44.000 --> 03:04:47.680 you go, I mean, if you're if I was Franciscopola, 3340 03:04:47.680 --> 03:04:49.120 I'd say this is who I want and that would 3341 03:04:49.159 --> 03:04:52.920 be it. But I hadn't achieved that level of political 3342 03:04:53.040 --> 03:04:55.920 power or whatever. Try to work with the same people 3343 03:04:57.680 --> 03:05:01.319 if you can. I had a line producer or named 3344 03:05:01.319 --> 03:05:06.000 Peter McGregor Scott who when I first got out to 3345 03:05:06.360 --> 03:05:10.959 LA to prepping Nerds. Guy comes into my office one 3346 03:05:11.040 --> 03:05:14.319 day and he goes, Hi, I'm the new line producer. 3347 03:05:14.719 --> 03:05:17.360 I go, okay, great. He goes, Yeah, let me just 3348 03:05:17.399 --> 03:05:20.399 tell you this. I'm being hired as a spy. What 3349 03:05:20.440 --> 03:05:22.479 do you mean, he goes, They, No, I did Animal House, 3350 03:05:23.079 --> 03:05:25.000 and if I think you're not making it funny, I 3351 03:05:25.079 --> 03:05:28.680 have to call the studio and squeal. I said, oh, 3352 03:05:28.719 --> 03:05:30.479 that's good to know, he goes. But we'll just work 3353 03:05:30.559 --> 03:05:32.639 together and we'll make it work. And that's what we did. 3354 03:05:32.719 --> 03:05:35.000 We worked together and we made it work. And so 3355 03:05:35.079 --> 03:05:37.760 then he did Gotcha with me, and then Disney wouldn't 3356 03:05:37.799 --> 03:05:40.879 hire him on Tough Guys for some reason. But then 3357 03:05:41.040 --> 03:05:42.719 Troop Beverly Hills I got him back again. So I 3358 03:05:42.799 --> 03:05:48.559 did three movies with Peter. But it's a shorthand thing. 3359 03:05:48.799 --> 03:05:51.440 If you work with somebody and you know how each 3360 03:05:51.479 --> 03:05:53.280 other works, it's very helpful. 3361 03:05:54.040 --> 03:05:57.799 I'm curious about you, having come from the editing background, 3362 03:05:58.520 --> 03:06:01.319 how was it giving up that control to somebody else 3363 03:06:01.399 --> 03:06:02.280 to edit your films? 3364 03:06:03.040 --> 03:06:06.920 It was not easy, and in fact I always had 3365 03:06:06.959 --> 03:06:10.000 my own cutting room. I didn't take credit, but I 3366 03:06:11.360 --> 03:06:14.760 on Nerds. For example, they gave me an editor that 3367 03:06:14.920 --> 03:06:18.159 had worked on mel Brooks's most recent movie. I think 3368 03:06:18.159 --> 03:06:19.719 it was called to Be a Not to Be or something, 3369 03:06:20.399 --> 03:06:23.319 and the studio liked him and he started to work 3370 03:06:23.360 --> 03:06:27.559 for me, and I realized he doesn't try enough permutations 3371 03:06:27.600 --> 03:06:29.159 on a scene. He just likes to cut the scene 3372 03:06:29.360 --> 03:06:31.399 and not make too many splices because we're still cutting 3373 03:06:31.440 --> 03:06:34.120 on film and it sounds sloppy if you'd make too 3374 03:06:34.120 --> 03:06:38.239 many splices when it goes through the movie. Editors didn't 3375 03:06:38.319 --> 03:06:41.159 like that. And also they would have their assistant editors 3376 03:06:41.600 --> 03:06:43.959 and they were just like a style of thing. They 3377 03:06:44.000 --> 03:06:47.319 would go the thing would be on the movie all 3378 03:06:47.520 --> 03:06:50.399 and then he would hit it with the grease pencil 3379 03:06:50.639 --> 03:06:51.959 and that was where to cut, and then he would 3380 03:06:51.959 --> 03:06:54.159 give it to the assistant to go cut there like that. 3381 03:06:54.600 --> 03:06:56.040 When I was cutting, I was saying, I don't know 3382 03:06:56.040 --> 03:06:58.239 should be here? Should it be there? And I always 3383 03:06:58.280 --> 03:06:59.920 had too many cuts because I wanted it to be 3384 03:07:00.840 --> 03:07:03.559 the perfect cut, and a lot of it was trial 3385 03:07:03.600 --> 03:07:05.959 and error to me. So I worked with that guy 3386 03:07:06.079 --> 03:07:07.920 on that movie, and I worked with a different person 3387 03:07:08.719 --> 03:07:13.159 on Gotcha. Although I worked I had an apprentice editor 3388 03:07:13.239 --> 03:07:16.079 on Nerds who also worked on Gotcha as an assistant, 3389 03:07:16.399 --> 03:07:19.200 and she became a really big solid editor. She did 3390 03:07:20.079 --> 03:07:23.280 Hangover one Hangover to Hangover. She became a really big 3391 03:07:23.360 --> 03:07:26.639 time editor. This girl Debbie that was the apprentice on Nerds. 3392 03:07:28.000 --> 03:07:30.000 I worked with different editors, but I always had my 3393 03:07:30.079 --> 03:07:33.319 own cut room, so I would just patchki around and 3394 03:07:33.399 --> 03:07:35.000 make things the way I needed them to be. 3395 03:07:35.959 --> 03:07:43.840 Who your DP for Worshowsky was a Yan Kesser Keyser, Yes, Yesser, Okay, Okay, 3396 03:07:44.000 --> 03:07:44.479 he was Okay. 3397 03:07:44.639 --> 03:07:48.399 All my films up to that point were visually fine, 3398 03:07:48.719 --> 03:07:52.559 but nothing brilliant about them, And on Worshowsky, I wanted 3399 03:07:52.559 --> 03:07:57.360 to try to become a less boring director visually, and 3400 03:07:57.520 --> 03:07:59.000 so I tried to get a couple of guys and 3401 03:07:59.040 --> 03:08:01.959 they didn't like the script. Conrad Hall didn't like the script. 3402 03:08:02.440 --> 03:08:05.079 And then John Keezer came in. I had seen one 3403 03:08:05.120 --> 03:08:07.799 of his movies, and I said to him, listen, I 3404 03:08:07.920 --> 03:08:12.200 need to look more stylish on this movie. So let's 3405 03:08:12.239 --> 03:08:14.559 make different kind of choice. Let's not make choices just 3406 03:08:14.680 --> 03:08:17.360 based on story, Let's make some choices based on style. 3407 03:08:17.799 --> 03:08:20.399 And he said absolutely. But every time I would ask 3408 03:08:20.479 --> 03:08:21.879 him to do something like that, he would say, it's 3409 03:08:21.920 --> 03:08:22.559 not justified. 3410 03:08:24.200 --> 03:08:24.680 And so it was. 3411 03:08:24.840 --> 03:08:28.719 The movie was fine, but it could have been more 3412 03:08:28.799 --> 03:08:29.719 interesting visually. 3413 03:08:30.879 --> 03:08:32.920 So did you end up in movie jail afterwards? 3414 03:08:34.600 --> 03:08:39.000 That was nineteen ninety one. I wasn't getting meetings, I 3415 03:08:39.040 --> 03:08:41.959 wasn't getting jobs. I was bouncing from agency to agency 3416 03:08:42.040 --> 03:08:44.879 and like nothing was happening. So I started doing trailers again. 3417 03:08:46.479 --> 03:08:50.079 And now I was no longer the top of trailer makers. 3418 03:08:50.120 --> 03:08:53.680 I was like level three of trailer makers. So after 3419 03:08:53.719 --> 03:08:55.520 they'd been to a couple of other companies, they give 3420 03:08:55.600 --> 03:08:57.479 me a crack at it. So I worked for a 3421 03:08:57.559 --> 03:09:00.600 couple of years just doing trailers again. It was good 3422 03:09:01.719 --> 03:09:07.959 and the ego was crushed. And so then at a 3423 03:09:08.000 --> 03:09:11.319 certain point Kirk called me up and he was offered 3424 03:09:11.319 --> 03:09:14.719 a touch by an Angel episode and he asked where 3425 03:09:14.719 --> 03:09:17.520 I directed with him. I said sure, So he got 3426 03:09:17.559 --> 03:09:20.520 me that job, and I went to Salt Lake City 3427 03:09:20.559 --> 03:09:23.440 and we shot that and I thought, it's like making 3428 03:09:23.520 --> 03:09:27.319 a movie. It's fast, but I enjoyed it. So I 3429 03:09:27.399 --> 03:09:31.239 did three episodes of that, and then Kirk got this 3430 03:09:31.600 --> 03:09:36.159 offer to make a movie in Belarus, a Holocaust movie, 3431 03:09:36.920 --> 03:09:38.719 and he had already had his stroke and he was 3432 03:09:39.120 --> 03:09:42.239 not feeling well, but he got me the job as 3433 03:09:42.280 --> 03:09:45.399 the director, and then just when it was time to 3434 03:09:45.479 --> 03:09:47.120 go over there and shoot the movie, he said he 3435 03:09:47.159 --> 03:09:51.680 couldn't do it. So he canceled, and I called the director, 3436 03:09:51.680 --> 03:09:54.360 who would never talk to me because he would only fax. 3437 03:09:54.959 --> 03:09:56.479 So he faxed me back and he said, what do 3438 03:09:56.559 --> 03:09:59.040 you want? And I said, I guess I'm not going 3439 03:09:59.120 --> 03:10:01.040 to be the director. A workers Kirk's not going to 3440 03:10:01.079 --> 03:10:02.799 do it. He goes, no, you're still the director, but 3441 03:10:02.879 --> 03:10:06.639 we're cutting your salary in half. But I needed the job, 3442 03:10:06.719 --> 03:10:09.000 so I flew over there and I made that movie. 3443 03:10:08.840 --> 03:10:08.920 And. 3444 03:10:10.520 --> 03:10:15.559 I liked the movie mostly. It was an amazing experience 3445 03:10:15.639 --> 03:10:17.719 working in a place where I didn't speak the language, 3446 03:10:17.920 --> 03:10:20.680 with a crew who didn't speak my language, with actors 3447 03:10:20.719 --> 03:10:23.959 who spoke several languages. You had an Italian actor and 3448 03:10:24.000 --> 03:10:26.760 a German actor and a Russian actor all acting in 3449 03:10:26.799 --> 03:10:30.200 their own language in a scene together. And I thought 3450 03:10:30.239 --> 03:10:33.399 this is never going to work, but it did. Those 3451 03:10:33.479 --> 03:10:37.840 seems are fine. But then the producer, who was this 3452 03:10:38.079 --> 03:10:43.840 older Jewish guy from Berlin, he basically got me pushed aside. 3453 03:10:44.520 --> 03:10:47.639 After I edited the movie, he took over and he 3454 03:10:47.719 --> 03:10:51.040 made some changes and it ended up opening in the 3455 03:10:51.079 --> 03:10:54.159 Berlin Film Festival. And told the Berlin Film Festival that 3456 03:10:54.280 --> 03:10:57.079 I was, in a way making a movie in the jungle, 3457 03:10:57.159 --> 03:11:00.520 and I couldn't be reached. So I was walking down 3458 03:11:00.520 --> 03:11:02.879 the street in Brentwood one day and a friend of 3459 03:11:02.920 --> 03:11:05.280 mine says, hey, I hear your movies in the Berlin 3460 03:11:05.319 --> 03:11:08.159 Film Festival. I said, what when did that happen? 3461 03:11:08.319 --> 03:11:08.440 Oh? 3462 03:11:08.520 --> 03:11:11.319 Yeah, I called the Berlin Film Festival. They go, you're 3463 03:11:11.360 --> 03:11:13.760 back from the jungle. I said, I was a jungle. 3464 03:11:14.719 --> 03:11:16.440 They said, we want you to come over. So I 3465 03:11:16.479 --> 03:11:18.559 went over there, and that producer was so upset that 3466 03:11:18.680 --> 03:11:22.399 I was there. That was almost made it worthwhile. But 3467 03:11:23.200 --> 03:11:25.920 it was his movie and that was it. He took 3468 03:11:25.959 --> 03:11:28.120 it from there. It's never played in America or a 3469 03:11:28.200 --> 03:11:29.159 lot of places really. 3470 03:11:30.079 --> 03:11:33.200 Since you were doing trailers in the eighties, did you 3471 03:11:33.280 --> 03:11:36.559 ever work with the big vo guys like Don la Fontaine. 3472 03:11:36.959 --> 03:11:40.799 Oh yeah, No, I was doing them in the seventies. 3473 03:11:40.479 --> 03:11:42.159 In the seventies, but then it sounds like you went 3474 03:11:42.239 --> 03:11:43.319 back to it in the nineties. 3475 03:11:43.639 --> 03:11:44.719 In the nineties, that went back to it. 3476 03:11:44.840 --> 03:11:46.360 Yeah, I was Don. 3477 03:11:46.479 --> 03:11:48.719 Don was great and he could do it in his sleep. 3478 03:11:49.040 --> 03:11:51.319 You didn't have to direct Don. He knew he could 3479 03:11:51.399 --> 03:11:54.600 just read the copy. Yeah, I used him a lot. 3480 03:11:54.639 --> 03:11:58.040 I used eight off Caesar until he died. Guy named 3481 03:11:58.079 --> 03:12:00.440 Hal Douglass. He's still alive, I think, but I used 3482 03:12:00.520 --> 03:12:03.920 him a lot, and every once in a while there 3483 03:12:03.959 --> 03:12:06.040 was a guy named John Roger and brother John. He 3484 03:12:06.120 --> 03:12:09.520 had a great voice. I was talking about Revenge of 3485 03:12:09.520 --> 03:12:11.680 the Nerds. I didn't do the trailer on Revenge of 3486 03:12:11.719 --> 03:12:16.159 the Nerds, but Orson Wells narrated the trailer for Revenge 3487 03:12:16.159 --> 03:12:19.159 of the Nerds for twenty five grand. He's only there 3488 03:12:19.159 --> 03:12:19.680 at the beginning. 3489 03:12:20.000 --> 03:12:23.520 But how about now, what are you working on these days? 3490 03:12:24.360 --> 03:12:27.840 Last thing I did after I did the thing in Belarus, 3491 03:12:27.879 --> 03:12:31.159 I came back. I made a movie for having just 3492 03:12:31.239 --> 03:12:35.040 made a movie for twenty million dollars via Worshowski, I 3493 03:12:35.120 --> 03:12:38.760 now made a movie for three hundred thousand. My son 3494 03:12:38.840 --> 03:12:42.440 wrote it and it was with Cameron Douglas and an 3495 03:12:42.760 --> 03:12:45.719 actress named Emmanuel Shrieky. It got picked up by a 3496 03:12:45.840 --> 03:12:49.120 National Lampoon, so it was called National Lampoon's Adam and Eve. 3497 03:12:49.680 --> 03:12:53.280 It was a small love story set in a university, 3498 03:12:54.120 --> 03:12:56.879 and it was actually pretty good. Nobody went to see it, 3499 03:12:56.959 --> 03:13:01.319 but New Line put it out as a TVD. So 3500 03:13:01.440 --> 03:13:04.920 I did that Adam and Eve, and then still trying 3501 03:13:04.959 --> 03:13:08.120 to get an agent and do some work, and I 3502 03:13:08.200 --> 03:13:11.479 did a few more trailers. My son, who I had 3503 03:13:11.559 --> 03:13:13.520 done the Adam and Eve movie, he got a job 3504 03:13:13.600 --> 03:13:17.200 working as National Lampoons had a production for some reason, 3505 03:13:18.079 --> 03:13:22.000 and they had a script that I had read. It 3506 03:13:22.159 --> 03:13:26.239 was like a parody of three hundred and Troy and Gladiator. 3507 03:13:27.360 --> 03:13:32.159 It was called The Legend of Awesomest Maximus. And my 3508 03:13:32.239 --> 03:13:34.239 son called me and he goes, they're talking to directors. 3509 03:13:34.319 --> 03:13:34.440 Now. 3510 03:13:34.520 --> 03:13:36.079 He goes, I know they're not going to call you, 3511 03:13:36.600 --> 03:13:39.879 but if I see an opening where they some directors 3512 03:13:39.959 --> 03:13:42.639 say no, I'll stick your name. And then so that's 3513 03:13:42.639 --> 03:13:45.319 what happened. Waited, and then he called me. He goes, 3514 03:13:45.399 --> 03:13:47.719 come in today, they can't get a director. So I 3515 03:13:47.760 --> 03:13:50.200 went in and I tap danced, and I got this 3516 03:13:50.399 --> 03:13:55.079 job directing that and that was actually a fun experience 3517 03:13:55.159 --> 03:13:58.040 and parts of it are really good. And that was 3518 03:13:58.079 --> 03:14:00.680 two thousand and seven. That was the last thing done, 3519 03:14:01.280 --> 03:14:03.159 except for a couple of short films. 3520 03:14:02.879 --> 03:14:03.399 That I made. 3521 03:14:04.920 --> 03:14:08.159 My daughter was in film school. I made a film 3522 03:14:08.200 --> 03:14:11.559 with her, and maybe one or two other little things. 3523 03:14:11.639 --> 03:14:14.680 But I'm ready to go. I've been working on I 3524 03:14:14.719 --> 03:14:16.760 got a couple of scripts. It's going to be hard. 3525 03:14:17.680 --> 03:14:20.440 You do get to the point where is he still alive. 3526 03:14:21.479 --> 03:14:22.879 I was going to change my name to that. 3527 03:14:23.600 --> 03:14:23.920 Did he. 3528 03:14:25.399 --> 03:14:28.200 Didn't you do a short with Paul Mazerski as well? 3529 03:14:28.920 --> 03:14:31.200 Oh yeah, that wasn't sure. There was a documentary. 3530 03:14:31.280 --> 03:14:32.920 Oh documentary, okay, well. 3531 03:14:32.920 --> 03:14:36.799 Yippie, Yeah, Paul did it. I had known him from 3532 03:14:36.879 --> 03:14:39.840 trailer making and we ran into each other at a 3533 03:14:39.879 --> 03:14:45.239 funeral and I had done my thing in Belarus and 3534 03:14:45.319 --> 03:14:48.079 he had just come back from the Ukraine where he 3535 03:14:48.159 --> 03:14:52.159 had shot this documentary, and I said, what is it about. 3536 03:14:52.200 --> 03:14:56.639 He goes, there's about twenty thousand Hasidic Jews gathered around 3537 03:14:56.680 --> 03:14:59.079 the lake, singing and dancing. I went, oh, that sounds great. 3538 03:14:59.319 --> 03:15:01.040 He goes, you want to look at the footage with me? 3539 03:15:01.159 --> 03:15:04.440 I go, but I couldn't say no. So I looked 3540 03:15:04.440 --> 03:15:08.680 at the footage and it wasn't That part wasn't great. 3541 03:15:09.000 --> 03:15:11.959 But he's in it and he's great. So he became 3542 03:15:12.040 --> 03:15:15.040 our guide through this world, and we made this documentary. 3543 03:15:15.399 --> 03:15:19.000 No one released it, and finally this Brandeis University released it. 3544 03:15:19.319 --> 03:15:23.840 But it's a good little documentary and Paul was great. Yippie. 3545 03:15:24.600 --> 03:15:26.520 Now all we need is my eulogy and we're done. 3546 03:15:27.319 --> 03:15:29.239 So that sums it all up there. 3547 03:15:30.120 --> 03:15:32.280 Mister Ken, thank you so much for your time. This 3548 03:15:32.479 --> 03:15:33.440 was great talking with you. 3549 03:15:33.879 --> 03:15:36.559 I can feel free to edit this if I send 3550 03:15:36.600 --> 03:15:39.719 anything to disparage anybody. Cut that out, except for David 3551 03:15:39.760 --> 03:15:41.360 Hoberman from Disney because he's a dick. 3552 03:15:44.120 --> 03:15:45.799 And last, but not least, we're going to hear from 3553 03:15:45.840 --> 03:15:50.000 the final writer on the Via Worshowski project, Warren Light, 3554 03:15:51.000 --> 03:15:54.280 before we start talking about via Worshowski. I really would 3555 03:15:54.360 --> 03:15:55.680 like to know a little bit more about you, and 3556 03:15:55.920 --> 03:15:58.280 especially how he decided to become a writer. I thought 3557 03:15:58.280 --> 03:15:59.440 you would have been a musician. 3558 03:16:00.200 --> 03:16:01.840 I grew up in a home where my father was 3559 03:16:01.879 --> 03:16:05.520 a trumpet player, and he practiced three four hours a day, 3560 03:16:05.600 --> 03:16:08.360 and they didn't communicate well with each other, and I 3561 03:16:08.520 --> 03:16:11.000 was not allowed to have music lessons because my mother said, 3562 03:16:11.120 --> 03:16:13.879 I will never allow my son to do to another 3563 03:16:13.959 --> 03:16:17.840 woman what your father did to me. Very happy home, 3564 03:16:18.399 --> 03:16:21.600 I noodled the instruments when nobody was home. And I 3565 03:16:21.639 --> 03:16:23.479 don't know if there would have been a different path 3566 03:16:23.600 --> 03:16:26.840 had I been. I probably wasn't disciplined enough to be 3567 03:16:26.879 --> 03:16:30.680 a musician, so I ended up often writing about music 3568 03:16:30.719 --> 03:16:33.239 and writing musicals, and every time I do a musical, 3569 03:16:34.319 --> 03:16:37.760 the musical arrangers and the pianists everything. Just you're the 3570 03:16:37.799 --> 03:16:41.000 only book writer who understands music. And I said, why 3571 03:16:41.000 --> 03:16:42.799 would somebody write the book to musical if they didn't 3572 03:16:42.840 --> 03:16:48.840 understand music? And there's this long pause, I'll say, I 3573 03:16:49.000 --> 03:16:51.239 love working with the piano players and the arrangers and 3574 03:16:51.280 --> 03:16:54.120 the compos and just trying to figure out interstitially, where 3575 03:16:54.159 --> 03:16:57.000 to place lines, How much time do you need? It 3576 03:16:57.079 --> 03:16:59.600 sounded like you wanted to go another chorus? Would it 3577 03:16:59.639 --> 03:17:02.120 help to have a little more to me? It's as 3578 03:17:02.200 --> 03:17:03.920 close as I get to being a musician, and I 3579 03:17:04.040 --> 03:17:07.520 really enjoy one of the things I enjoy more than anything, 3580 03:17:07.680 --> 03:17:10.760 just being in the rehearsal room with these beautiful Broadway voices. 3581 03:17:10.840 --> 03:17:15.159 And it begins with justin piano played these amazing piano players, 3582 03:17:15.200 --> 03:17:18.280 and then it expands as the musical gets closer to 3583 03:17:19.159 --> 03:17:20.360 whatever fate awaits it. 3584 03:17:21.280 --> 03:17:21.440 Now. 3585 03:17:21.520 --> 03:17:26.040 You ended up going to school for communications and journalism, 3586 03:17:26.159 --> 03:17:26.559 Is that right? 3587 03:17:27.159 --> 03:17:31.559 Communications was the West Coast term for journalism, which you know, 3588 03:17:32.040 --> 03:17:35.280 I wanted to be a sports writer because evidently I 3589 03:17:35.399 --> 03:17:37.840 was never going to be an athlete, and I grew 3590 03:17:37.920 --> 03:17:40.239 up reading all these great New York writers or were 3591 03:17:40.239 --> 03:17:42.959 a columnists like Timmy Breslin started out as a sports 3592 03:17:43.000 --> 03:17:45.799 writer than Red Smith and all of these guys. I 3593 03:17:45.879 --> 03:17:48.879 didn't learn to read until I started reading sports pages. 3594 03:17:49.520 --> 03:17:53.079 I was one of those kids people were whispering about. 3595 03:17:53.159 --> 03:17:56.680 And then I started to follow baseball teams, and then 3596 03:17:56.680 --> 03:17:58.520 the Knicks, and then I was I wanted to be 3597 03:17:58.559 --> 03:18:00.319 a sports writer, and then for a while I wanted 3598 03:18:00.360 --> 03:18:02.319 to be a stand up comic. I actually did stand 3599 03:18:02.399 --> 03:18:05.840 up comedy at a club where Lou Black was the MC, 3600 03:18:06.079 --> 03:18:09.000 and I went on and Lou Black wanted to be 3601 03:18:09.079 --> 03:18:11.319 a playwright, and I wanted to be a stand up comic. 3602 03:18:11.760 --> 03:18:16.040 This is the mid eighties, and life takes you where 3603 03:18:16.079 --> 03:18:16.520 it takes you. 3604 03:18:17.280 --> 03:18:20.040 Tell me about some of those early scripts that you 3605 03:18:20.120 --> 03:18:22.879 had right because you got in with the Kaufman Brothers 3606 03:18:23.120 --> 03:18:25.360 and working with like the early days of trauma. 3607 03:18:26.159 --> 03:18:28.120 Yeah, the trauma as I used to call it liver 3608 03:18:28.879 --> 03:18:31.159 In case people are wondering, how do you get your 3609 03:18:31.239 --> 03:18:35.319 career breaks. I had an apartments share in an upper 3610 03:18:35.360 --> 03:18:37.680 West side building. I had what was used to be 3611 03:18:37.760 --> 03:18:40.159 called the maid's room off the kitchen. I paid one 3612 03:18:40.239 --> 03:18:42.520 hundred and twenty five bucks a month to rent it, 3613 03:18:42.600 --> 03:18:46.040 and there were three kind of rich kids in the 3614 03:18:46.079 --> 03:18:50.159 bigger rooms, and I had like this little Cinderella like room. 3615 03:18:50.680 --> 03:18:53.799 And there was a guy in the building who I'd 3616 03:18:53.879 --> 03:18:56.399 run into in the hallway, and his name was Charlie Kaufman, 3617 03:18:56.799 --> 03:19:00.200 not the favorite Charlie Kaufman, but Lloyd Kaufman's brothers. One 3618 03:19:00.239 --> 03:19:02.239 day we were talking and he said, you're right right. 3619 03:19:02.280 --> 03:19:04.159 I go heah, he goes do you like horror movies? 3620 03:19:04.760 --> 03:19:06.799 At that point I booked any job. I had to 3621 03:19:06.840 --> 03:19:08.920 make six hundred dollars a month to live. So you 3622 03:19:08.959 --> 03:19:11.120 could ask me, do I like romance novels? Do I 3623 03:19:11.200 --> 03:19:13.239 like horror movies? Do I like corporate speeches? It didn't matter. 3624 03:19:13.280 --> 03:19:16.319 I would say yeah, I loved them. So I said yeah, 3625 03:19:16.319 --> 03:19:17.879 I love them. And he said we may need to 3626 03:19:17.920 --> 03:19:20.799 write a treatment. I have these Swedish investors looking to 3627 03:19:21.000 --> 03:19:24.680 hide money for tax reasons. And I said sure, and 3628 03:19:24.760 --> 03:19:27.479 I went to Times Square. I was not a fan 3629 03:19:27.520 --> 03:19:29.000 of horror movies. I didn't like them at all, and 3630 03:19:29.040 --> 03:19:31.040 I watched in those days there were all those double 3631 03:19:31.079 --> 03:19:34.319 features in Times Square, and I did. I probably saw 3632 03:19:34.479 --> 03:19:37.760 eighteen horror movies in the course of a weekend in 3633 03:19:37.879 --> 03:19:40.559 the time with the Times Square audience, which, first of all, 3634 03:19:40.559 --> 03:19:42.200 you're taking your life in your hands in those days. 3635 03:19:42.239 --> 03:19:45.040 Second of all, anytime there's a flaw on the script, 3636 03:19:45.120 --> 03:19:47.600 which is often they start saying things like get in 3637 03:19:47.719 --> 03:19:50.840 the car, bitch, get in the car, like they point 3638 03:19:50.920 --> 03:19:54.959 out the holes. And then I had the joy of 3639 03:19:55.000 --> 03:19:57.440 seeing my own horror movie at one of those theaters, 3640 03:19:57.479 --> 03:19:59.159 and it was the same. I made the same mistakes. 3641 03:20:00.040 --> 03:20:02.319 I wrote this treatment for Charles for six hundred dollars. 3642 03:20:03.200 --> 03:20:05.399 He had the rights to He knew he could shoot 3643 03:20:05.440 --> 03:20:08.760 it in an abandoned summer camp in the Delaware Water Gap, 3644 03:20:09.520 --> 03:20:13.319 so we needed the girls to go on a camping trip, 3645 03:20:13.399 --> 03:20:15.840 and bad things happen. We had one day in the 3646 03:20:15.879 --> 03:20:18.799 city before the Unions found us, and then we had 3647 03:20:18.840 --> 03:20:20.760 all the time and I didn't know anything about the woods. 3648 03:20:20.760 --> 03:20:22.319 I'd never gone camp. I was not a I was 3649 03:20:22.360 --> 03:20:25.280 a city kid, so I was like, what can happen 3650 03:20:25.319 --> 03:20:29.200 to the Anyway, we filled up a treatment and he 3651 03:20:29.239 --> 03:20:30.920 said I'll call you if they want the screenplay, and 3652 03:20:31.000 --> 03:20:34.120 I was like, okay, there's six hundred bucks. And he 3653 03:20:34.239 --> 03:20:37.079 called about six weeks later and he goes the Swedes 3654 03:20:37.239 --> 03:20:39.360 like it. They're ready to go to screenplay so I 3655 03:20:39.479 --> 03:20:42.479 sat with him in his apartment, which was nicer than mine, 3656 03:20:42.520 --> 03:20:45.360 but not that nice. He would lie on a couch 3657 03:20:45.520 --> 03:20:47.799 with his head on a pillow, and I sat at 3658 03:20:47.840 --> 03:20:50.000 the typewriter, and he would say, so what comes next? 3659 03:20:50.360 --> 03:20:54.959 So what comes next? Which is actually great in terms 3660 03:20:55.000 --> 03:20:58.159 of what if this happens? He sum up with sudden. 3661 03:20:58.159 --> 03:21:01.399 They say, yeah, that works. So we wrote a screenplay 3662 03:21:02.280 --> 03:21:04.239 and I was allowed to do anything. I had probably 3663 03:21:04.280 --> 03:21:07.319 more autistic freedom there than I've had since. I named 3664 03:21:07.399 --> 03:21:10.600 the two psychopathic brothers, Ike and Adley. I said the 3665 03:21:10.680 --> 03:21:13.559 mom was a big fan of elections, and we did 3666 03:21:13.600 --> 03:21:16.920 all kinds of crap culture references and he said, this 3667 03:21:17.079 --> 03:21:20.239 is gets made. I'll give you a call and I said, okay. 3668 03:21:20.840 --> 03:21:22.760 I thought this is never going to get made. Nothing 3669 03:21:22.799 --> 03:21:24.920 ever gets made. And they called about eight weeks later 3670 03:21:24.959 --> 03:21:26.440 and he said, we're going to start shooting. I want 3671 03:21:26.440 --> 03:21:28.000 you to be on set because some of these actors 3672 03:21:28.079 --> 03:21:30.920 may not be good at saying two sentences together, so 3673 03:21:31.040 --> 03:21:32.559 you may have to make changes, he said, but I 3674 03:21:32.600 --> 03:21:36.200 can't afford you to have you on set just writing, 3675 03:21:36.360 --> 03:21:39.840 so you're going to boom the movie. I'm the rare writer. 3676 03:21:40.079 --> 03:21:43.799 Boommn hyphen it, and I boomed Mother's Day. There's one 3677 03:21:43.799 --> 03:21:46.680 shot in the movie where you see my fishpool fully 3678 03:21:46.719 --> 03:21:49.879 extended and my entire body in the shot, which I 3679 03:21:49.920 --> 03:21:52.559 don't blame myself for. I feel like somebody should have 3680 03:21:52.600 --> 03:21:56.399 caught that, but it's in the movie. It's become sort 3681 03:21:56.399 --> 03:22:00.799 of this weird cult thing of late, but it's Charles 3682 03:22:00.879 --> 03:22:05.000 got stuck because the certain international markets wanted a lot 3683 03:22:05.040 --> 03:22:07.680 of blood in it, and blood was expensive to use 3684 03:22:07.680 --> 03:22:09.479 in those days, so we had the PA's were below 3685 03:22:09.559 --> 03:22:12.440 the stabbing, soaking it up with sponges and pouring it 3686 03:22:12.520 --> 03:22:16.079 back in the buckets today really low budget. Had he 3687 03:22:16.239 --> 03:22:18.760 not drenched it in blood, it might have been more 3688 03:22:18.799 --> 03:22:23.079 well received here. That was the first screenplay I think 3689 03:22:23.120 --> 03:22:26.040 I ever wrote, and it got made and I got 3690 03:22:26.399 --> 03:22:29.639 twelve hundred bucks. I don't mean to brag. I'm still 3691 03:22:29.719 --> 03:22:31.959 friends with Charles to this day. In those days, I 3692 03:22:32.079 --> 03:22:36.280 booked whatever weird jobs from whatever directors who were on 3693 03:22:36.399 --> 03:22:38.319 a downward slide and were trying to get a screen 3694 03:22:38.520 --> 03:22:40.559 These guys couldn't necessarily write on their own, but they 3695 03:22:40.600 --> 03:22:44.200 knew a lot about I worked with this Italian director 3696 03:22:44.799 --> 03:22:47.959 and I learned so much from him about structure and story. 3697 03:22:48.079 --> 03:22:51.120 Nothing that ever got made with him. His name was E. G. Polidoro, 3698 03:22:51.159 --> 03:22:54.319 and it came to the States after middling success in Italy, 3699 03:22:54.440 --> 03:22:57.040 thinking he'd be the next guy. He came too late 3700 03:22:57.120 --> 03:22:59.760 in his life then, But again he would say what 3701 03:23:00.159 --> 03:23:03.760 was next? Anytime we got lost, he would say, which 3702 03:23:03.879 --> 03:23:05.920 was all the time, he would say, no, we are lost, 3703 03:23:06.479 --> 03:23:09.600 go back. What was the original idea? What was the premise? 3704 03:23:09.879 --> 03:23:12.079 If you remember the premise, you can always find your way. 3705 03:23:12.479 --> 03:23:15.000 And there were these like things that these guys knew, 3706 03:23:15.360 --> 03:23:19.520 not from film courses or whatever, but from breaking hundreds 3707 03:23:19.520 --> 03:23:22.520 of stories over the years. It were if you got 3708 03:23:22.559 --> 03:23:27.559 past their other insensitivities. They were interesting guys. They were 3709 03:23:27.600 --> 03:23:32.280 not world beaters, but I think it was formative for me. 3710 03:23:33.360 --> 03:23:35.520 You actually worked on on a movie that we covered 3711 03:23:35.559 --> 03:23:38.360 a few years ago, and that I wrote about a 3712 03:23:38.440 --> 03:23:41.239 few years prior to that, because I wrote a whole 3713 03:23:41.360 --> 03:23:45.559 article about talking genitals films. Can you tell me about 3714 03:23:45.559 --> 03:23:46.799 your experience on me and him? 3715 03:23:47.639 --> 03:23:50.319 Yes, they're talking. Jenital was on there. That was another 3716 03:23:50.360 --> 03:23:54.079 one of these. That's one of those stories. When I 3717 03:23:54.159 --> 03:23:56.159 finished the first rapt of the screenplay and it got 3718 03:23:56.319 --> 03:23:59.520 passed around, people told me, I'd written the next TUTSI 3719 03:23:59.600 --> 03:24:01.959 and I would never have to worry about work again. 3720 03:24:02.479 --> 03:24:04.719 And anytime I've heard that in my life, it's followed 3721 03:24:04.719 --> 03:24:08.840 by about two to three years of complete unemployment. Again, 3722 03:24:09.000 --> 03:24:11.959 that was a fluke. In this apartment that I shared 3723 03:24:12.040 --> 03:24:15.200 with those same three guys, one of the guys had 3724 03:24:15.239 --> 03:24:19.079 a sister who had a friend from Germany come. There 3725 03:24:19.120 --> 03:24:21.319 were like just lots of people staying in the apartment. 3726 03:24:21.760 --> 03:24:23.440 And one morning I woke up and there was this 3727 03:24:23.600 --> 03:24:26.200 naked German couple walking across the living room making with 3728 03:24:26.319 --> 03:24:31.040 my with my coffee. And she was Doris Dorri, who 3729 03:24:31.159 --> 03:24:34.639 was a German short story writer and film director. She 3730 03:24:34.799 --> 03:24:38.239 had not yet had her big hit. She had a 3731 03:24:38.319 --> 03:24:42.959 big German comedy hit, if He Forgives the contradiction in 3732 03:24:43.079 --> 03:24:47.319 Terms and the years later, So I met her and 3733 03:24:47.360 --> 03:24:49.440 so so I liked her. We got along great, and 3734 03:24:49.559 --> 03:24:56.079 then she was approached to adapt an Italian political didactic 3735 03:24:56.520 --> 03:25:00.280 novel called in English Me and Him, about a guy 3736 03:25:00.799 --> 03:25:02.600 who's packer starts to talk to him on his thirty 3737 03:25:02.639 --> 03:25:05.040 fifth birthday. But it was really also about the battle 3738 03:25:05.079 --> 03:25:09.159 of socialism versus communism versus class capitalist. It was and 3739 03:25:09.280 --> 03:25:12.600 I speak Italian. It was impenetrable in either language. It 3740 03:25:12.719 --> 03:25:16.920 was really I think it was the premise that the 3741 03:25:16.959 --> 03:25:19.440 guy bought and then they had nothing. So I created 3742 03:25:19.520 --> 03:25:23.959 a thirty five year old married guy who begins to 3743 03:25:24.079 --> 03:25:26.840 act out. There was great possibility of humor. Unfortunately, was 3744 03:25:26.879 --> 03:25:31.319 produced by Barrent Eichinger, who is had just by chance 3745 03:25:31.399 --> 03:25:33.920 I'd known Robin Williams through some people and he heard 3746 03:25:33.959 --> 03:25:35.840 about the movie. He's you're the guy who wrote the 3747 03:25:35.879 --> 03:25:37.879 Penis movie. I want to play the part of the Penis. 3748 03:25:38.639 --> 03:25:40.479 I was like, oh, my life is about to change, 3749 03:25:40.920 --> 03:25:44.520 and I bring a bootleg copy of Robin Williams Live 3750 03:25:45.120 --> 03:25:48.200 at Carnegie Hall. I guess there's something to Barrent Eichinger, 3751 03:25:49.000 --> 03:25:51.840 who watches about five minutes if it, turns it off 3752 03:25:51.879 --> 03:25:54.280 and goes flng. There is one thing of hits, I'm 3753 03:25:54.319 --> 03:25:56.799 as shilling you now is funny. This man will never 3754 03:25:56.920 --> 03:26:01.440 be so. Robin Williams as the improvisational voice of the 3755 03:26:01.520 --> 03:26:04.840 Penis would have made that movie very different from what 3756 03:26:04.920 --> 03:26:08.319 we ended up with. And then Doris, as often as 3757 03:26:08.360 --> 03:26:12.319 the case, Doris's boyfriend was the DP and there was 3758 03:26:12.360 --> 03:26:14.879 a producer. Anyway, she breaks up with the DPY and 3759 03:26:14.879 --> 03:26:18.600 can go. Somehow, she and her new boyfriend did a rewrite, 3760 03:26:19.639 --> 03:26:24.040 mercilessly stomping out virtually every joke in the script, turning 3761 03:26:24.120 --> 03:26:30.440 it more into again a European tretise about politics and 3762 03:26:31.760 --> 03:26:35.479 economic class struggle, and which is not always the funniest stuff. 3763 03:26:36.920 --> 03:26:39.159 I went to set a few times. They shot in 3764 03:26:39.280 --> 03:26:41.399 New York, but in such a way that New York 3765 03:26:41.440 --> 03:26:43.120 looked like Munich. I don't know how they pull it. 3766 03:26:43.239 --> 03:26:45.600 It went from being this movie that was going to 3767 03:26:45.680 --> 03:26:47.680 change my life to a movie that did very well 3768 03:26:47.719 --> 03:26:52.120 in Germany but died pretty much everywhere else. Eventually I 3769 03:26:52.239 --> 03:26:54.879 got them Mark linn Baker to voice the Penis Mark 3770 03:26:55.040 --> 03:26:58.879 perfect Strangers lin Baker, who's an old friend. But if 3771 03:26:58.920 --> 03:27:01.239 you try to trace the after my career, it's almost 3772 03:27:02.399 --> 03:27:04.079 none of it makes any sense at all. And a 3773 03:27:04.120 --> 03:27:06.520 lot of it is like a naked German couple walking 3774 03:27:06.600 --> 03:27:08.959 across my living room. And that's how I got to 3775 03:27:09.000 --> 03:27:12.319 do Me and Him five years later. There's no planning 3776 03:27:12.399 --> 03:27:12.760 going on. 3777 03:27:13.799 --> 03:27:16.399 So how do you know Jeff Canoe or is he 3778 03:27:16.520 --> 03:27:18.920 the one that brought you in on Worshowski or how 3779 03:27:18.959 --> 03:27:19.799 did you get that gig? 3780 03:27:21.079 --> 03:27:23.479 Yeah? Okay, that was a Weird One and Jof's a 3781 03:27:23.559 --> 03:27:27.920 nice guy. I enjoyed his company as the Titanic sink. 3782 03:27:29.399 --> 03:27:33.079 So I was in New York. Is this like nineteen ninety? 3783 03:27:33.520 --> 03:27:35.799 I think it really comes out of ninety one, and 3784 03:27:35.920 --> 03:27:39.239 it's nineteen ninety And I had an agent at that time, 3785 03:27:39.280 --> 03:27:44.360 and I would get there was a guy at Hollywood Pictures. 3786 03:27:44.920 --> 03:27:47.920 Disney at this point was going to take over the world, 3787 03:27:48.000 --> 03:27:50.239 and they kept creating new film divisions that were going 3788 03:27:50.319 --> 03:27:51.799 to put out Each film division was going to put 3789 03:27:51.840 --> 03:27:54.159 out thirty films a year. And there was a guy 3790 03:27:54.239 --> 03:27:58.399 at Hollywood Pictures. Again, a guy I had who was 3791 03:27:58.520 --> 03:28:00.559 two grades above me in high school run into on 3792 03:28:00.680 --> 03:28:03.319 fifty seven Street Ones. He'd put me up for this movie. 3793 03:28:04.559 --> 03:28:07.440 A number of writers had been on it already and 3794 03:28:07.719 --> 03:28:12.040 shooting was about to begin. And my actual take on 3795 03:28:12.120 --> 03:28:14.040 it is that the word was out in Hollywood this 3796 03:28:14.200 --> 03:28:19.280 was a job that would be thankless impossible and horrible, 3797 03:28:19.360 --> 03:28:22.360 and that they couldn't get a legitimate LA screenwriter to 3798 03:28:22.440 --> 03:28:26.600 do it, and in desperation, who will take the job. 3799 03:28:27.479 --> 03:28:29.879 I was in New York. I never spent time in LA, 3800 03:28:30.040 --> 03:28:34.399 so I was not part of any world. I didn't 3801 03:28:34.440 --> 03:28:36.280 know enough to notice say no to it, I think 3802 03:28:36.440 --> 03:28:39.559 was how it happened. There was like a weekly rate 3803 03:28:40.360 --> 03:28:43.319 that I'd never seen in my life that I think 3804 03:28:43.399 --> 03:28:45.360 they thought they got me cheap. There was just such 3805 03:28:45.360 --> 03:28:49.639 a gap between my New York life. My memory is 3806 03:28:50.360 --> 03:28:54.000 it was twenty five thousand dollars a week, which to 3807 03:28:54.120 --> 03:28:55.920 this day seems like a lot of money, but in 3808 03:28:56.079 --> 03:29:00.440 nineteen ninety that was two weeks, was more than I 3809 03:29:00.520 --> 03:29:02.559 was making in a year. Most yeah, that was like 3810 03:29:03.000 --> 03:29:05.319 are you yeah sure, I don't care. I'll say whatever 3811 03:29:05.399 --> 03:29:07.920 it is. And as it happens, it was based on 3812 03:29:08.000 --> 03:29:10.360 these novels, and I knew the novels, and I had 3813 03:29:10.440 --> 03:29:13.600 been a big detective reader who hadn't gone through that 3814 03:29:13.799 --> 03:29:18.399 noir stage. Knew I knew a lot about that. It 3815 03:29:18.559 --> 03:29:22.479 was not like asking me to do a show about 3816 03:29:22.559 --> 03:29:25.479 some obscure era in British monarchy or something that I 3817 03:29:25.520 --> 03:29:29.440 don't This was in my wheelhouse. There were a lot 3818 03:29:29.520 --> 03:29:33.200 of meetings, and this is pre zoom, but these a 3819 03:29:33.280 --> 03:29:35.920 lot of Hollywood. There were I would say there were 3820 03:29:36.360 --> 03:29:39.079 more cooks on this than anything I've done other than 3821 03:29:40.680 --> 03:29:44.680 Network TV. There were just and I got there and 3822 03:29:44.799 --> 03:29:50.559 the script was it was a patchwork quilt of different drafts, 3823 03:29:50.600 --> 03:29:52.559 and people liked this piece, and this was in and 3824 03:29:52.639 --> 03:29:55.559 it was there was no there was no flow or 3825 03:29:55.639 --> 03:29:58.719 shape to it. And I've flown out to LA and 3826 03:29:58.760 --> 03:30:02.600 there was a big conference table and I said, I 3827 03:30:02.799 --> 03:30:06.639 just got a couple of questions. When everybody gets in 3828 03:30:06.760 --> 03:30:09.399 the car at some point, they drive to a grain 3829 03:30:09.520 --> 03:30:12.600 silo and the grain silo explodes on purpose and almost 3830 03:30:12.719 --> 03:30:15.159 kills them. They go, yeah, that's great, that's great, And 3831 03:30:15.200 --> 03:30:16.840 I go, why do they get in the car and 3832 03:30:16.920 --> 03:30:19.559 drive to the grain silo? And there's this pause and 3833 03:30:19.600 --> 03:30:21.600 they go, we have permission to blow up a grain silo? 3834 03:30:21.680 --> 03:30:24.719 And I go, no, I get that, that's totally clear. 3835 03:30:25.239 --> 03:30:28.760 That that makes some sense to me. But what prompts 3836 03:30:28.879 --> 03:30:31.840 our characters to get in the car and drive to 3837 03:30:31.920 --> 03:30:34.639 a grain silo in the middle of nowhere late at night? 3838 03:30:34.639 --> 03:30:36.200 And they go, it can be in the day. I go, okay, 3839 03:30:36.280 --> 03:30:39.319 either way, why are they going? They have permission to 3840 03:30:39.319 --> 03:30:42.280 grow up a grain silo? So everybody just drove there. 3841 03:30:43.200 --> 03:30:45.920 But there was no way the script was filled with 3842 03:30:46.000 --> 03:30:49.040 things like that. It was and I don't call that 3843 03:30:49.319 --> 03:30:50.879 out on any of the writers. I think it's what 3844 03:30:51.000 --> 03:30:54.239 happens when I don't know what number writer I was. 3845 03:30:54.559 --> 03:30:56.840 I know that there are more people who work down 3846 03:30:56.920 --> 03:31:00.680 with them names on the script. There was an arbitrations 3847 03:31:00.719 --> 03:31:02.520 are always ugly with the Writers Guild, but there was 3848 03:31:02.559 --> 03:31:05.920 an arbitration afterward. But I think I was the one 3849 03:31:05.959 --> 03:31:09.239 who and I think Jeff Canoe would say this, I 3850 03:31:09.360 --> 03:31:11.920 was probably the one who pulled it together and made 3851 03:31:11.959 --> 03:31:14.399 it coherent, which is something I've done on a lot 3852 03:31:14.440 --> 03:31:18.319 of projects in my life. I was raised to fix 3853 03:31:18.440 --> 03:31:21.319 things in certain ways. I tried to pull it together. 3854 03:31:21.520 --> 03:31:24.319 There were a lot of notes. Katzenberg was giving notes, 3855 03:31:25.159 --> 03:31:28.159 and he was at that point the most powerful man 3856 03:31:28.239 --> 03:31:32.639 in Hollywood, but he was micromanaging this among eighty other things. 3857 03:31:33.639 --> 03:31:35.840 There were some very nice people involved, but there was 3858 03:31:35.920 --> 03:31:39.920 no I said, I don't think the grain style makes sense. 3859 03:31:39.959 --> 03:31:42.239 So then they ended up blowing up a boat which 3860 03:31:42.280 --> 03:31:44.680 they had for mission to blow up, and so that 3861 03:31:44.840 --> 03:31:46.360 was exciting and it made more sense to me. At 3862 03:31:46.399 --> 03:31:48.959 least they were in Chicago. There was a reason to 3863 03:31:49.040 --> 03:31:52.319 go near water in the city of Chicago. It sort 3864 03:31:52.360 --> 03:31:55.000 of made some sense as opposed to getting in a 3865 03:31:55.079 --> 03:31:57.040 car and driving an hour and twenty minutes to an 3866 03:31:57.200 --> 03:32:01.399 empty Grain silo every day for the three maybe I 3867 03:32:01.559 --> 03:32:03.760 was there from I went, I got to live in 3868 03:32:03.799 --> 03:32:06.399 a nice hotel in Chicago. For me, it was like 3869 03:32:07.040 --> 03:32:11.000 being dropkicked into Hollywood. But every day there would be 3870 03:32:11.159 --> 03:32:16.120 notes from Katzenberg, from the Hollywood Pictures team, from a 3871 03:32:16.280 --> 03:32:22.040 variety of producers, from the director, from Kathleen Turner about 3872 03:32:22.079 --> 03:32:23.879 the scenes that were going to shoot the next day, 3873 03:32:24.760 --> 03:32:28.520 and and the notes nobody was coordinating them. They contradicted 3874 03:32:28.559 --> 03:32:31.520 each other, they conflicted with each other, and I would say, 3875 03:32:32.719 --> 03:32:35.600 here's a version of the scene the way Jeffrey Katzenberg 3876 03:32:35.680 --> 03:32:37.399 wanted it. Here's a version of the scene the way 3877 03:32:37.799 --> 03:32:40.319 two execs that Hollywood Pictures wanted it. Here's a version 3878 03:32:40.360 --> 03:32:42.680 of the scene the way that third exactly Hollywood Pictures 3879 03:32:42.719 --> 03:32:46.959 wanted it. Here's Appling Turner version. Here's the director, not 3880 03:32:47.040 --> 03:32:49.000 that anybody cares what he thinks. And I said, and 3881 03:32:49.040 --> 03:32:51.159 then I tried to think, all of you guys are 3882 03:32:51.559 --> 03:32:55.159 focusing on different things. Maybe the prescriptions are wrong, and 3883 03:32:55.200 --> 03:32:57.680 maybe the diagnosis is probably not right, but it may 3884 03:32:57.879 --> 03:33:00.760 something is wrong with these scenes. So here's my attempt 3885 03:33:01.239 --> 03:33:03.360 to just try to make the scene work with a 3886 03:33:03.440 --> 03:33:06.920 three act structure. To the scene and with characterizations, and 3887 03:33:06.959 --> 03:33:08.840 it's also if you'll notice much shorter than all that. 3888 03:33:09.079 --> 03:33:10.879 Then I would say, and here's a scene that incorporates 3889 03:33:10.959 --> 03:33:14.680 all of your notes, which like literally at the door, 3890 03:33:14.920 --> 03:33:17.520 Kathleen Turner wanted to put your lips together and blow 3891 03:33:17.680 --> 03:33:19.879 sort of lying like an exit line that showed she 3892 03:33:20.079 --> 03:33:23.239 was sassy. But they all had different ideas for what 3893 03:33:23.319 --> 03:33:25.760 the exit line are. She actually has seven lines at 3894 03:33:25.799 --> 03:33:28.040 the door, so we should probably choose one, and they said, 3895 03:33:28.079 --> 03:33:32.159 du all seven, we'll edit it later. It was completely insane. 3896 03:33:32.239 --> 03:33:35.520 I rather enjoyed it, but it was trying to get 3897 03:33:35.680 --> 03:33:41.319 something to cohere with unbelievable amounts of incoming conflicting messages, 3898 03:33:41.360 --> 03:33:43.799 and they were doing that. Jeff was being tortured by them. 3899 03:33:43.799 --> 03:33:46.520 They'd look at the dailies and they'd say, tomorrow, go 3900 03:33:46.719 --> 03:33:52.920 back and shoot Jay Saunders with this sized lens, micromanaging, 3901 03:33:53.000 --> 03:33:56.600 not script. But they actually this was the delusion they 3902 03:33:56.639 --> 03:34:00.159 were under the time. They thought they were really the 3903 03:34:00.239 --> 03:34:02.680 filmmakers and the directors of the movie and the writers 3904 03:34:02.719 --> 03:34:06.040 of the movie, and we were sort of assembly and 3905 03:34:06.159 --> 03:34:08.959 they could dictate. They really were under the impression of 3906 03:34:08.959 --> 03:34:11.879 those days that they knew how they knew better how 3907 03:34:11.920 --> 03:34:14.479 to make a movie from I guess two thousand miles 3908 03:34:14.479 --> 03:34:17.959 away than the filmmakers, and that they could micro manage it. 3909 03:34:18.159 --> 03:34:20.200 It was a corporate belief at the time at Disney 3910 03:34:20.600 --> 03:34:24.399 and Hire Pictures. Didn't last very long, but it was 3911 03:34:24.840 --> 03:34:28.440 It's that thing of overexpanding and getting over ambitious, and 3912 03:34:29.040 --> 03:34:31.920 you can't direct a movie from two thousand miles away, 3913 03:34:32.319 --> 03:34:34.760 you can't write a movie from two thousand miles away. 3914 03:34:35.600 --> 03:34:38.520 We were all aware, I think that we were on 3915 03:34:38.879 --> 03:34:44.280 a sinking ship. That the movie came out coherent is 3916 03:34:45.120 --> 03:34:49.399 slightly a miracle, and they just wanted options in the 3917 03:34:49.559 --> 03:34:53.319 editing room. Options. Jay Saunders and I still run into 3918 03:34:53.360 --> 03:34:55.319 each other in New York and he was one of 3919 03:34:55.360 --> 03:34:57.920 the principles in the movie. I think he was number 3920 03:34:57.920 --> 03:35:00.360 two on the call sheet or something like that. Very 3921 03:35:00.399 --> 03:35:03.520 good guy, really good actor, And we talk about it 3922 03:35:04.319 --> 03:35:09.040 when I ran in him some thing in May of 3923 03:35:09.120 --> 03:35:11.440 this year, and we still talk about it because it 3924 03:35:11.600 --> 03:35:15.319 was like an experience to survive. We were all aware 3925 03:35:15.399 --> 03:35:18.200 that it was insane while it was going on. No 3926 03:35:18.319 --> 03:35:20.600 one was really acting out. Kathleen had good days and 3927 03:35:20.680 --> 03:35:24.200 bad days, but nobody was. It was all just an 3928 03:35:24.239 --> 03:35:27.639 attempt to shoot something that wasn't ready to shoot with 3929 03:35:27.760 --> 03:35:32.280 a director who's probably wasn't right for it. I remember 3930 03:35:32.319 --> 03:35:34.280 I met him. I said, I know what everybody else wants. 3931 03:35:34.280 --> 03:35:35.639 What do you want this film to be? What's it 3932 03:35:35.719 --> 03:35:38.360 about to you? And said to me, Kathleen Turner, she's 3933 03:35:38.440 --> 03:35:41.000 running around with a gun and she's got great legs. 3934 03:35:41.799 --> 03:35:46.280 And I was like, Okay, that's the poster. He kept saying. 3935 03:35:47.280 --> 03:35:50.520 So they knew what the poster was, and they never 3936 03:35:50.639 --> 03:35:54.000 knew what the story was. And it wasn't based on 3937 03:35:54.159 --> 03:35:58.760 one Wasshovski novel. It was based on four novels. They 3938 03:35:58.799 --> 03:36:00.840 had the rights to four novels, so instead of doing 3939 03:36:01.639 --> 03:36:04.639 one novel at a time, they cut and pasted from 3940 03:36:04.680 --> 03:36:09.280 three or four different I felt bad for Sarah. She 3941 03:36:09.600 --> 03:36:13.040 wrote some really good books. The thought of the time 3942 03:36:13.120 --> 03:36:15.600 was this was going to be a major franchise, that 3943 03:36:15.840 --> 03:36:18.760 it would be one Kathleen Turner Watshowskin movie after another 3944 03:36:18.840 --> 03:36:21.959 after another, like Raiders of the Lost Ark or something, 3945 03:36:22.000 --> 03:36:25.520 you know, except that they didn't approach it in any 3946 03:36:26.239 --> 03:36:30.440 sensible way, And so I enjoyed it and stayed in 3947 03:36:30.520 --> 03:36:32.360 touch with a number of people. The guy who was 3948 03:36:32.799 --> 03:36:35.600 production manager on that. When I got my first TV 3949 03:36:35.760 --> 03:36:37.879 job in New York. He ended up he was the first. 3950 03:36:38.079 --> 03:36:40.840 He was the production manager on that. I'm like, didn't 3951 03:36:40.920 --> 03:36:44.200 you hurt Warshawski ten years ago? And he goes, oh, brother, 3952 03:36:44.319 --> 03:36:48.559 that's a long story. John Roman was his name. He 3953 03:36:48.639 --> 03:36:51.399 was great. I remember we were in Jeff Canoe's hotel 3954 03:36:51.479 --> 03:36:55.159 room one Saturday night and he was getting just clobbered 3955 03:36:55.239 --> 03:36:56.799 by the West Coast and we all knew it and 3956 03:36:56.879 --> 03:36:59.879 we felt bad and having to reshoot things because they 3957 03:37:00.079 --> 03:37:03.079 wanted a different Can you change the color of the 3958 03:37:03.159 --> 03:37:08.399 wall behind Mike in this next shot in the it's like, yeah, okay. 3959 03:37:09.040 --> 03:37:12.079 We were in his hotel room and Jeff had been 3960 03:37:12.079 --> 03:37:14.799 an editor more than end. You can see he has 3961 03:37:14.879 --> 03:37:17.520 a He directs in the style of an editor who 3962 03:37:17.559 --> 03:37:21.479 became a director. It cuts really well, and people aren't 3963 03:37:21.559 --> 03:37:23.559 moving a lot, because that makes it harder to you know, 3964 03:37:23.639 --> 03:37:26.120 there's a lot of a group of three and one person, 3965 03:37:26.200 --> 03:37:28.079 but they don't change places to off, but there's not 3966 03:37:28.079 --> 03:37:31.559 a lot of dosey doing It's it cuts easily, but 3967 03:37:31.639 --> 03:37:34.239 there's not a lot of movement to the characters. The 3968 03:37:34.399 --> 03:37:39.879 characters tend to be stagnant. So we were watching Saray 3969 03:37:39.879 --> 03:37:42.959 at Live and he'd ordered some nice wine. We were 3970 03:37:43.079 --> 03:37:45.760 just trying to unwind after another week of just being 3971 03:37:45.959 --> 03:37:51.079 clobbered and a sketch comes on SNL called what were 3972 03:37:51.159 --> 03:37:54.959 you thinking? And it's Herbie Villain. Suez. Villain said, we 3973 03:37:55.079 --> 03:37:57.399 were on the one of the most successful shows of 3974 03:37:57.440 --> 03:38:00.239 all time and he left it to launch a movie career. 3975 03:38:00.319 --> 03:38:03.319 What were you if? The notion was actors who were 3976 03:38:03.399 --> 03:38:05.959 lucky to have these great jobs, who've made horrible choices 3977 03:38:06.280 --> 03:38:10.680 and then they go, Shelley Long, you were on Sheers, 3978 03:38:10.719 --> 03:38:14.360 the most successful sitcom in the of the decade, and 3979 03:38:14.479 --> 03:38:17.760 you left it to do Troop Beverly Hills. What were 3980 03:38:17.920 --> 03:38:20.360 you think? And of course Jeff had directed Troop Bearefully 3981 03:38:21.760 --> 03:38:24.280 it was when it rains, it pours, and it was 3982 03:38:24.559 --> 03:38:28.399 pouring every day on the set of Worshowski, and it 3983 03:38:28.559 --> 03:38:34.479 was mostly I think this moment in time when Disney 3984 03:38:34.600 --> 03:38:39.040 thought they could put out more movies by themselves than 3985 03:38:39.040 --> 03:38:41.799 all other studios put together, and they created I think 3986 03:38:41.840 --> 03:38:45.440 Hollywood Films was the third division that they had going 3987 03:38:45.520 --> 03:38:51.399 at the time, and they were micromanaging poorly. After about 3988 03:38:51.440 --> 03:38:54.280 eleven weeks after about two hundred fifty thousand dollars, my 3989 03:38:54.399 --> 03:38:56.840 mother took ill and there was I had an assistant 3990 03:38:56.879 --> 03:38:58.079 for the first time in my life, and he had 3991 03:38:58.120 --> 03:39:01.280 a like a typewriter that could he raise two lines 3992 03:39:02.159 --> 03:39:06.799 by hisself, which was like this astounding to me. And 3993 03:39:06.920 --> 03:39:08.920 I felt bad for this kid because I was the 3994 03:39:08.959 --> 03:39:11.079 amount of stuff I was generating that he then had 3995 03:39:11.120 --> 03:39:15.639 to He was working harder than I was, yes, and 3996 03:39:15.920 --> 03:39:19.879 it was a very nice kid, very sardonic. And my 3997 03:39:20.000 --> 03:39:22.719 mom got diagnosed with cancer and I thought I probably 3998 03:39:22.719 --> 03:39:25.040 said the job was going on and it was going 3999 03:39:25.120 --> 03:39:27.959 to be four weeks in LA and I just said, guys, 4000 03:39:28.000 --> 03:39:30.680 I think I'm done, Like what about this? I said, 4001 03:39:30.680 --> 03:39:32.920 the kid can do it. It's just dictation at this point, 4002 03:39:33.680 --> 03:39:36.600 but I said, just dictate to him instead of telling 4003 03:39:36.680 --> 03:39:39.159 me you'll be And I think that's what they did. 4004 03:39:39.440 --> 03:39:42.559 So I was replaced by like a twenty three year 4005 03:39:42.559 --> 03:39:45.440 old kid who had good had had him. I don't 4006 03:39:45.440 --> 03:39:46.959 even know if it was a computer. It was like 4007 03:39:47.799 --> 03:39:49.239 k pro. I don't know what was called, but it 4008 03:39:49.319 --> 03:39:53.280 was it could erase two lines, which was incredible. And 4009 03:39:54.280 --> 03:39:57.360 that was the end of my tenure there. It's not 4010 03:39:57.520 --> 03:40:02.040 really a golden age of Hollywood story. But it was 4011 03:40:02.719 --> 03:40:04.719 also for me a great learning experience because I'd never 4012 03:40:04.840 --> 03:40:07.799 been on Me and Him was not a Hollywood set, 4013 03:40:07.920 --> 03:40:13.360 that was just handmade filmmaking. And I had another flop 4014 03:40:13.440 --> 03:40:15.360 called Deer God. I don't know which came for us, 4015 03:40:15.399 --> 03:40:17.639 but I was not. That was another one with nine 4016 03:40:17.719 --> 03:40:20.959 riders and you get replaced. May come later, but it 4017 03:40:21.040 --> 03:40:24.440 was the first time really seeing how the sausage gets 4018 03:40:24.520 --> 03:40:31.079 made in a factory rife with health violations. And Kathleen 4019 03:40:31.120 --> 03:40:33.440 didn't want to be there. I think she felt she 4020 03:40:33.600 --> 03:40:36.959 signed on for something other than what she was. I 4021 03:40:37.000 --> 03:40:39.440 think she was correct in assuming that she deserved better, 4022 03:40:40.399 --> 03:40:43.920 and she may have gone on a slightly self destructive 4023 03:40:43.959 --> 03:40:46.680 way during that. No one could blame anyone for any 4024 03:40:47.479 --> 03:40:50.799 acting out that occurred on a set like that, and 4025 03:40:51.159 --> 03:40:54.040 it was just fascinating to me that the crew knew 4026 03:40:54.440 --> 03:40:56.600 this was not going to be something that looks great 4027 03:40:56.639 --> 03:40:58.200 on their resume, but that they were going to get 4028 03:40:58.239 --> 03:41:00.879 extra weeks because of the amount of reshe said, kept coming, 4029 03:41:01.920 --> 03:41:05.159 and the spigot, the Hollywood Pictures spigot, was open. I 4030 03:41:05.239 --> 03:41:09.319 got a letter from one guy afterward who was high 4031 03:41:09.440 --> 03:41:12.040 up in the ranks of Hollywood Pictures, but was always 4032 03:41:12.079 --> 03:41:13.680 respectful to me. Some of them were not some of 4033 03:41:13.719 --> 03:41:16.639 them were really disdainful, but he was quite respectful. And 4034 03:41:16.680 --> 03:41:20.159 I wrote him and he wrote back, I said, my 4035 03:41:20.280 --> 03:41:22.840 mom took her. I said, also, you were not like 4036 03:41:22.920 --> 03:41:25.440 some of the others, but it was the amount of 4037 03:41:26.520 --> 03:41:31.120 abuse or disdain was a little hard to handle. And 4038 03:41:31.200 --> 03:41:34.760 he said, Warren, and I understand. I just remember these words. 4039 03:41:34.879 --> 03:41:38.040 Every day I eat more shit than you can imagine 4040 03:41:38.120 --> 03:41:43.840 here and he maybe the head of Hollywood Pictures, but 4041 03:41:44.079 --> 03:41:46.799 it just stayed with me. He I believe he left 4042 03:41:47.280 --> 03:41:50.360 Hollywood and became a doctor, became an emergency room doctor. 4043 03:41:50.399 --> 03:41:52.920 I believe that's the story I heard about it. 4044 03:41:53.000 --> 03:41:56.479 But he was a decent human being trapped in this 4045 03:41:57.600 --> 03:42:02.840 machine and the every day I eat more shit than 4046 03:42:02.879 --> 03:42:05.040 you can imagine, And it was very articulate. 4047 03:42:05.120 --> 03:42:09.959 Who's not a coarse man. That's where Disney was at 4048 03:42:10.000 --> 03:42:14.520 the height of the narcissistic balloon before Pops gets bigger 4049 03:42:14.559 --> 03:42:16.680 and bigger. So I don't know, I haven't seen the movie. 4050 03:42:16.719 --> 03:42:17.479 How does it hold up. 4051 03:42:19.120 --> 03:42:22.399 It's decent, it's not great, and you just feel while 4052 03:42:22.440 --> 03:42:24.639 you're watching it like this probably could have been a 4053 03:42:24.680 --> 03:42:25.120 lot better. 4054 03:42:25.760 --> 03:42:28.559 That was the heartbreak to me. Those novels had an 4055 03:42:28.559 --> 03:42:32.639 interesting character at the center of them. Kathleen is capable 4056 03:42:32.680 --> 03:42:36.079 of good words. Those novels deserved a better fate. I 4057 03:42:36.159 --> 03:42:40.719 don't think anyone's ever made a Worshowski movie again. They 4058 03:42:40.799 --> 03:42:43.680 didn't just kill the movie, they killed the franchise. 4059 03:42:44.520 --> 03:42:47.280 Yeah. I think they ended up doing a BBC audio 4060 03:42:47.520 --> 03:42:53.360 series with Kathleen reprising v I. But yeah, I guess 4061 03:42:53.440 --> 03:42:56.559 Disney still owns all the visual rights to everything. 4062 03:42:57.479 --> 03:43:02.200 They should try again, but get somebody who can direct 4063 03:43:02.639 --> 03:43:05.719 a good episode of criminal intent and get a good 4064 03:43:05.799 --> 03:43:09.840 writer in and Just. They weren't the most complicated plots 4065 03:43:09.879 --> 03:43:12.959 of storylines, but there was. She also had moral outrage 4066 03:43:13.319 --> 03:43:15.799 about certain issues, and that was something that was not 4067 03:43:15.959 --> 03:43:19.360 appealing to Disney at the time. The novels were political. 4068 03:43:19.399 --> 03:43:22.200 I remember there was one with a subplot about an 4069 03:43:22.200 --> 03:43:25.799 abortion clinic being by something, and that was like a 4070 03:43:25.920 --> 03:43:29.399 third rail. I was instructed, as this's often the case 4071 03:43:29.719 --> 03:43:33.760 from corporate America. I was instructed not to do anything political. 4072 03:43:34.600 --> 03:43:39.879 You'll hear that today in any la writing job. That's 4073 03:43:39.959 --> 03:43:42.680 my success story. I have only fond memories of ten 4074 03:43:42.760 --> 03:43:45.079 weeks of staying in a hotel in Chicago. I went 4075 03:43:45.159 --> 03:43:48.520 to my first Starbucks. It was very exciting. I'd never 4076 03:43:48.680 --> 03:43:51.559 be they had one and I'd never been to one, 4077 03:43:51.639 --> 03:43:55.440 and I walked in. I was like, what is this? Yeah, 4078 03:43:55.520 --> 03:43:58.920 though I think it was their second city, presumably Weirdly, 4079 03:43:59.000 --> 03:44:01.879 Jeff Canoe now lives around the block from my office, 4080 03:44:01.959 --> 03:44:03.959 and I have run into him on the street in 4081 03:44:04.040 --> 03:44:06.280 recent years. Have you spoken to him? 4082 03:44:06.639 --> 03:44:06.840 Yeah? 4083 03:44:07.079 --> 03:44:09.719 Yeah, What did he have to say? I'd love to know. 4084 03:44:10.520 --> 03:44:13.079 He definitely did not have the greatest time in the world. 4085 03:44:14.120 --> 03:44:14.280 Yeah. 4086 03:44:14.360 --> 03:44:18.520 Yeah, they were tough on him, but nobody knew what Again, 4087 03:44:18.600 --> 03:44:20.399 go back to what the Italian guy told me, what's 4088 03:44:20.440 --> 03:44:24.000 the movie about? Nobody knew what the movie was about. 4089 03:44:24.040 --> 03:44:27.360 They all knew what was what the poster was. I 4090 03:44:27.440 --> 03:44:29.440 don't think you should try to write a movie based 4091 03:44:29.479 --> 03:44:32.280 on a poster. You should have a beginning, middle, and 4092 03:44:32.319 --> 03:44:35.799 an end, and you should have a character finding out 4093 03:44:35.920 --> 03:44:39.920 something about herself in the process of breaking this crime. 4094 03:44:40.079 --> 03:44:42.399 And none of this was what they were going for. 4095 03:44:43.319 --> 03:44:45.799 I don't know if he directed much again after that. 4096 03:44:46.239 --> 03:44:48.239 It took a long time for him to get another 4097 03:44:48.360 --> 03:44:50.639 directing gig. We talked about him being in movie jail 4098 03:44:50.719 --> 03:44:51.319 for quite a while. 4099 03:44:52.280 --> 03:44:54.360 Yeah, that's like movie prison for writers. 4100 03:44:54.760 --> 03:44:55.079 Uh huh. 4101 03:44:56.200 --> 03:44:57.799 I did not go to movie prison for I've gone 4102 03:44:57.799 --> 03:45:00.399 to movie prison for other jobs. I did not go 4103 03:45:00.479 --> 03:45:02.639 to movie prison for this because I jobbed in and 4104 03:45:02.760 --> 03:45:05.959 jobbed out. But somebody once told me, no writer in 4105 03:45:06.079 --> 03:45:09.399 movie prison thinks he's thinks he's guilty of the crime 4106 03:45:09.479 --> 03:45:10.280 he's been accused of. 4107 03:45:11.000 --> 03:45:14.360 I spoke with two of the other writers as well 4108 03:45:14.399 --> 03:45:17.840 as Sarah Peretzky, and yeah, one of the writers was 4109 03:45:18.200 --> 03:45:21.000 it was like his very first gig that he ever had. 4110 03:45:21.600 --> 03:45:24.200 This happened to me the other in that I guess 4111 03:45:24.239 --> 03:45:26.600 in this point I was the well paid writer. But 4112 03:45:26.840 --> 03:45:29.000 like four years earlier, I was doing an adaptation of 4113 03:45:29.079 --> 03:45:33.360 slaughter House five and I got my usual six hundred 4114 03:45:33.399 --> 03:45:36.319 or eleven hundred dollars fee to write it, and then 4115 03:45:36.360 --> 03:45:39.239 I was replaced by Franken and Davis, who got eighty 4116 03:45:39.319 --> 03:45:44.319 thousand dollars to destroy us. What that's how that goes? 4117 03:45:44.600 --> 03:45:45.399 Never got what it was. 4118 03:45:45.799 --> 03:45:49.399 He got paid more to come in at the very 4119 03:45:49.520 --> 03:45:53.760 last minute, because apparently Disney or Hollywood Pictures was like, oh, 4120 03:45:53.799 --> 03:45:56.600 we need a voiceover to explain all this stuff. So 4121 03:45:56.719 --> 03:46:00.520 they hired him, they hired the guy that rewrote, they 4122 03:46:00.799 --> 03:46:03.159 hired somebody else, and I'm not sure if you were 4123 03:46:03.200 --> 03:46:03.399 in that. 4124 03:46:03.719 --> 03:46:06.719 Of course they hired four writers simultaneously. Of course they did, 4125 03:46:06.760 --> 03:46:10.079 because I had forgotten about that. I think later in 4126 03:46:10.159 --> 03:46:14.479 the process I got called back in to do some 4127 03:46:14.600 --> 03:46:18.559 voice that I had completely forgotten about that because it's 4128 03:46:18.600 --> 03:46:21.479 not really one of those remarkable things. But yes I was. 4129 03:46:21.799 --> 03:46:23.959 I think I was in so that would be here's 4130 03:46:23.959 --> 03:46:26.319 a tell. You have four different writers at the same 4131 03:46:26.520 --> 03:46:28.559 That was the thing. Even while I was doing the rewrites, 4132 03:46:28.920 --> 03:46:32.520 occasionally rewrite, other rewrites were coming in and I would 4133 03:46:32.559 --> 03:46:34.479 then rewrite the other rewrite, and I was like, where 4134 03:46:34.520 --> 03:46:39.239 did this come from? And nobody knew. I feel bad 4135 03:46:39.360 --> 03:46:43.879 for Sarah Perevsky and Jeff deserved better, although at that 4136 03:46:44.079 --> 03:46:46.079 time in his career, up until that, he was living 4137 03:46:46.120 --> 03:46:50.079 a good life. But occasionally, if I'm channel surfing at night, 4138 03:46:50.200 --> 03:46:52.479 I'll see some pieces of a film and I'll know 4139 03:46:52.479 --> 03:46:55.680 it's a canoe direction, just by the certain approach he 4140 03:46:55.760 --> 03:46:58.040 has to fill lakers, the titles of being what could 4141 03:46:58.079 --> 03:47:03.159 have been? Or how to destroy a franchise through hupriss 4142 03:47:04.000 --> 03:47:05.520 death by executive Hubris. 4143 03:47:06.520 --> 03:47:08.680 You know it's scarios how you got involved with television 4144 03:47:08.719 --> 03:47:12.200 because you've been mister Law and Order for a long time. 4145 03:47:12.719 --> 03:47:14.639 Yeah, I don't know how. I do know how that happened. 4146 03:47:15.120 --> 03:47:18.000 I'd had a hit Broadway play that won to Tony 4147 03:47:18.079 --> 03:47:21.879 and that changed my life. About two years later, I 4148 03:47:22.159 --> 03:47:25.879 was drowning in elder care. My mother was ill, my 4149 03:47:26.000 --> 03:47:28.399 father was ill, my father's my brother was ill, and 4150 03:47:28.520 --> 03:47:32.440 I was on the hook for all of the go 4151 03:47:32.600 --> 03:47:35.520 to the Medicare car doesn't swipe one day and there 4152 03:47:36.319 --> 03:47:38.760 they have to have that. I was just hemorrhaging money, 4153 03:47:40.600 --> 03:47:43.399 which is not unusual with medical care in our society. 4154 03:47:43.440 --> 03:47:47.000 And and I ran again. I ran into Teresa Reebeck 4155 03:47:47.360 --> 03:47:50.840 on the street. Teresa is a wonderful writer, playwright who 4156 03:47:51.239 --> 03:47:53.120 I think at the time was known as crime chick 4157 03:47:53.959 --> 03:47:55.280 until I was going through a bit of a time. 4158 03:47:55.760 --> 03:47:58.680 She said, would you ever consider TV writing? I was like, 4159 03:47:59.000 --> 03:48:03.200 how do you do that? I wasn't really up on 4160 03:48:03.360 --> 03:48:06.799 television at all. She said, Law and Order. I'm working 4161 03:48:06.879 --> 03:48:11.000 on a new Law and Order. I literally I said, 4162 03:48:12.200 --> 03:48:14.159 what channel is it on and where does it shoot? 4163 03:48:14.280 --> 03:48:16.840 That's how much I knew about the franchise. I had 4164 03:48:16.959 --> 03:48:20.399 never watched one. I don't think I've watched any hour dramas. 4165 03:48:20.440 --> 03:48:23.520 I had just always been a sitcom guy. If anything, 4166 03:48:24.399 --> 03:48:26.639 she says, it shoots. We were on twenty second and ten. 4167 03:48:26.719 --> 03:48:30.159 She said, it shoots two blocks from here. And this 4168 03:48:30.360 --> 03:48:33.520 is the first year was thirteen episodes, and they started 4169 03:48:33.520 --> 03:48:35.479 the second year. They want one more writer in New York. 4170 03:48:36.079 --> 03:48:38.000 I didn't think I knew what a showrunner was. I said, 4171 03:48:38.159 --> 03:48:41.079 tell the head writer, I'm a big fan of the shows. 4172 03:48:41.920 --> 03:48:43.000 And then I did the same thing I did with 4173 03:48:43.040 --> 03:48:45.799 the horror movies. I went home and I watched I 4174 03:48:45.959 --> 03:48:50.840 called William Morris, my agents and the somebohow. I got 4175 03:48:51.120 --> 03:48:55.000 thirteen video cassettes of the first season and every script, 4176 03:48:55.079 --> 03:48:57.639 and I watched them straight through. And I went in 4177 03:48:57.799 --> 03:48:59.879 and I thought, okay, it seems to be a commercial. 4178 03:49:00.000 --> 03:49:01.399 I didn't know what a teaser was, but it seemed 4179 03:49:01.399 --> 03:49:03.719 like there was this thing at the beginning with broken 4180 03:49:03.799 --> 03:49:07.319 point of view and then four commercial breaks. And I 4181 03:49:07.440 --> 03:49:09.879 came in and pitched a whole story to the guy. 4182 03:49:09.879 --> 03:49:11.360 I think he liked me because I had a Tony 4183 03:49:11.360 --> 03:49:14.280 Award and that looked classy to him. But I also 4184 03:49:14.879 --> 03:49:16.920 pitched a cohering story, and I was talking to him 4185 03:49:16.920 --> 03:49:19.879 about the background of his lead Detective Gore, and I said, 4186 03:49:19.879 --> 03:49:21.680 to be this hyper vigilance, he must come from a 4187 03:49:21.760 --> 03:49:23.399 home where he grew up, none of the stuff he'd 4188 03:49:23.440 --> 03:49:28.319 ever thought about it all. I stumbled my way into TV. 4189 03:49:28.840 --> 03:49:30.360 I called my agent and said, I think this guy 4190 03:49:30.440 --> 03:49:32.360 wants to hire me, and they said he can't do 4191 03:49:32.520 --> 03:49:37.399 TV or a Tony Award winning playwright. My lawyer fired me, 4192 03:49:38.280 --> 03:49:41.000 which was like save the bullet. I don't know it was. 4193 03:49:42.159 --> 03:49:44.200 I mean, they were like, what are you doing? And 4194 03:49:44.440 --> 03:49:46.920 I had been David Chase had been flirting with me 4195 03:49:47.120 --> 03:49:49.239 for three years to go on to Sopranos, but he'd 4196 03:49:49.280 --> 03:49:52.840 never pulled the trigger. He discovered Edie Falco in my 4197 03:49:52.959 --> 03:49:56.920 play met with him, and I'm half Italian American, and 4198 03:49:57.040 --> 03:49:59.799 I do understand that the world of that' show pretty 4199 03:49:59.799 --> 03:50:03.000 well well. Just then, after I got hired for criminal intent, 4200 03:50:03.239 --> 03:50:04.680 he found out I was hired, and he called and 4201 03:50:04.719 --> 03:50:06.399 said I'd like to hire I said, I just took 4202 03:50:06.440 --> 03:50:08.520 a job, and he goes, have you signed a deal yet? 4203 03:50:08.559 --> 03:50:10.200 I said no, but I told him I was doing it. 4204 03:50:10.319 --> 03:50:12.680 That would be to this thing. I wonder, what would 4205 03:50:12.680 --> 03:50:15.559 have happened if I'd gone with him. As it turns out, 4206 03:50:15.760 --> 03:50:19.000 I became solvent in the world of law and order, 4207 03:50:19.000 --> 03:50:20.360 and I figured out how to write it. But it 4208 03:50:20.479 --> 03:50:23.000 was like learning how to write with my left hand 4209 03:50:23.079 --> 03:50:27.000 in a foreign language. I have always had to figure 4210 03:50:27.000 --> 03:50:28.680 out how to do something if I got the job, 4211 03:50:28.760 --> 03:50:32.559 So I just figured it out. But anyway, again TV, 4212 03:50:32.680 --> 03:50:34.760 I ran into somebody on the street. It's a good 4213 03:50:34.799 --> 03:50:35.639 thing I walk a lot. 4214 03:50:38.239 --> 03:50:40.840 Yeah, I have to say Goren was probably the most 4215 03:50:40.879 --> 03:50:44.840 interesting character on all of those shows put together. Oh yeah, 4216 03:50:45.360 --> 03:50:47.680 I gave him a mother. We had Rita Moreno, who 4217 03:50:47.760 --> 03:50:50.959 was great. I gave him a serial killer father later. 4218 03:50:51.040 --> 03:50:53.239 I really tried to, but I was really trying to 4219 03:50:53.360 --> 03:50:59.440 retrofit a backstory for this really complicated character that Vince. 4220 03:51:00.520 --> 03:51:03.760 Vince was himself fairly complicated. I don't think Vince could 4221 03:51:03.760 --> 03:51:06.520 do a straight line to save his life. He couldn't 4222 03:51:06.520 --> 03:51:08.920 say good morning, how's the weather without you wondering what 4223 03:51:09.040 --> 03:51:12.600 the fuck's gonna happen next. You had a guy doing that. 4224 03:51:14.120 --> 03:51:17.040 There was so much subtext and sanity everything to what 4225 03:51:17.120 --> 03:51:18.559 he was doing that you just had to try to 4226 03:51:18.639 --> 03:51:21.840 figure out what would explain it and Yes. Most of 4227 03:51:21.879 --> 03:51:25.120 the characters on Law and Order had no characters or 4228 03:51:25.239 --> 03:51:28.040 personalities whatsoever. And I used to get yelled at for 4229 03:51:28.719 --> 03:51:30.959 doing that. I still get yelled at at the wolf 4230 03:51:31.079 --> 03:51:36.399 Rode first character work and until they need character work. Yeah. 4231 03:51:36.399 --> 03:51:39.680 I used to love Dinafrio's whole body language, especially when me, 4232 03:51:39.719 --> 03:51:42.680 you'd ask a question, yeah to that whole leaning filt. 4233 03:51:42.920 --> 03:51:43.159 Yeah. 4234 03:51:43.399 --> 03:51:46.719 Yeah, he got that from a cop advisor. A cop 4235 03:51:46.760 --> 03:51:49.479 advisor told him a lot of these guys look down, 4236 03:51:49.639 --> 03:51:52.319 so you have to lean over to make eye contact 4237 03:51:52.399 --> 03:51:56.920 with and keep the pressure on him. And it became 4238 03:51:57.040 --> 03:52:00.719 his signature, the Goren lean, we called it. That was 4239 03:52:00.760 --> 03:52:03.840 there four years and then they made me showrunner. Things 4240 03:52:03.920 --> 03:52:05.799 moved quickly in that world. If you could do it. 4241 03:52:05.920 --> 03:52:08.680 They just kept throwing the work, did you, because it's 4242 03:52:08.760 --> 03:52:11.840 hard to plot those it's only an A story. Most 4243 03:52:12.520 --> 03:52:14.959 TV dramas have an A story, a B story, C story, 4244 03:52:14.959 --> 03:52:18.040 and a little D runner some guy in the break 4245 03:52:18.120 --> 03:52:21.639 room upset about a breakup or something. This was one storyline, 4246 03:52:21.680 --> 03:52:26.680 almost no and it's forty five beats in an hour 4247 03:52:28.040 --> 03:52:32.239 or TV commercial filled hour with all these act outs. 4248 03:52:32.760 --> 03:52:36.159 And I didn't like the gratuitousts find a body at 4249 03:52:36.159 --> 03:52:38.719 the end of an act act out. You rely on 4250 03:52:38.799 --> 03:52:42.000 that a lot, But how do you make these twists 4251 03:52:42.040 --> 03:52:45.000 that are so important for the storytelling? How do you 4252 03:52:45.040 --> 03:52:48.920 make them organic? And I sometimes watch those episodes now 4253 03:52:48.959 --> 03:52:53.280 on reruns and I'm like, how did I fucking plot that? 4254 03:52:54.559 --> 03:52:57.360 What was I on? You get into it ahead when 4255 03:52:57.360 --> 03:53:00.719 you're doing them, and they were these master criminals. And 4256 03:53:00.959 --> 03:53:04.239 I learned from that show runner, and no scene should 4257 03:53:04.280 --> 03:53:07.239 anything be easy for your detectives, which was the opposite 4258 03:53:07.239 --> 03:53:08.879 of Lawn Order, where Law and Order you go up 4259 03:53:08.879 --> 03:53:11.399 to someone and say, Mike, did you see a bad 4260 03:53:11.479 --> 03:53:14.719 guy running? Yeah he was? Yeah, I certainly did he did. 4261 03:53:15.639 --> 03:53:17.120 If I did that, the scene would come back with 4262 03:53:17.159 --> 03:53:18.959 a big X through it. You weren't going to tell 4263 03:53:18.959 --> 03:53:20.440 me you saw the guy because you were there to 4264 03:53:20.520 --> 03:53:22.959 cop something that you should have been doing, and your 4265 03:53:22.959 --> 03:53:24.799 wife doesn't know you were there, so you're gonna lie 4266 03:53:24.840 --> 03:53:26.479 to me. But I have to figure out that you're lying. 4267 03:53:27.399 --> 03:53:29.959 If every scene is difficult for the detectives, that makes 4268 03:53:29.959 --> 03:53:32.639 it more interesting to watch and much harder to write. 4269 03:53:33.360 --> 03:53:35.360 Warshowsky had very little of mess. 4270 03:53:36.360 --> 03:53:38.959 Mister light I cannot thank you enough for your time. 4271 03:53:39.040 --> 03:53:41.280 This was so nice talking with very nice to meet you. 4272 03:53:41.520 --> 03:53:44.040 And when it comes out with you drop me an 4273 03:53:44.040 --> 03:53:47.079 email and oh definitely, yeah, my daughters will laugh at me, 4274 03:53:47.159 --> 03:53:47.760 as they always do. 4275 03:53:50.319 --> 03:53:51.840 All Right, we were back and we were talking about 4276 03:53:51.920 --> 03:53:54.559 VR Worshowsky and I don't know if you guys had 4277 03:53:54.600 --> 03:53:56.639 a chance to listen to that audio commeddar Area. I 4278 03:53:56.639 --> 03:53:59.520 think he did. That was amusing. That was very amusing 4279 03:53:59.600 --> 03:54:02.479 to me. Like I felt so bad because first off, 4280 03:54:03.040 --> 03:54:05.680 I had no idea who was going to be talking 4281 03:54:05.760 --> 03:54:09.079 on the commentary because Jeff Canoe doesn't introduce himself. He 4282 03:54:09.200 --> 03:54:11.159 just kind of jumps into it and he starts talking 4283 03:54:11.200 --> 03:54:14.000 about TriStar and all this stuff, and he just goes 4284 03:54:14.079 --> 03:54:16.639 right into it. I didn't know there was another person 4285 03:54:16.760 --> 03:54:19.399 with him for like the longest time until finally this 4286 03:54:19.520 --> 03:54:23.559 guy pipes up. He again doesn't introduce himself, so had 4287 03:54:23.559 --> 03:54:26.559 to go looking and it's Mark Edward Hook or hike 4288 03:54:26.920 --> 03:54:29.920 h e U c K. He was the other guy. 4289 03:54:30.159 --> 03:54:35.120 And Canue was just not happy to have this other 4290 03:54:35.280 --> 03:54:38.879 guy with him. It was so cringey. So many times 4291 03:54:39.040 --> 03:54:41.319 it's like, well, how about we actually talk about this movie? 4292 03:54:41.399 --> 03:54:43.760 You're like, how about we actually talk about something important? 4293 03:54:43.879 --> 03:54:46.559 It felt like he was saying I listened to the 4294 03:54:46.600 --> 03:54:50.360 commentary without watching the film. I just put in the 4295 03:54:50.479 --> 03:54:53.719 headphones and so, you know, just kind of was in 4296 03:54:53.840 --> 03:54:58.040 that liminal space where I'm not sure who's talking or 4297 03:54:58.440 --> 03:55:01.440 what their role is. And it's rare that you hear 4298 03:55:01.520 --> 03:55:04.959 a commentary where you get a little bit of antagonism 4299 03:55:05.079 --> 03:55:10.280 between the speakers. So that was perplexing and engaging. But 4300 03:55:10.399 --> 03:55:14.840 also I think really it speaks to my feelings about 4301 03:55:14.879 --> 03:55:16.639 the film, is that I feel like there's a lot 4302 03:55:16.680 --> 03:55:19.440 of people with something to say about it, and they're 4303 03:55:19.520 --> 03:55:22.040 kind of talking over each other, and this is the 4304 03:55:22.079 --> 03:55:25.040 way that the film is out in the world. You know, 4305 03:55:25.239 --> 03:55:28.120 like this it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. 4306 03:55:28.680 --> 03:55:30.719 There's a lot of things that I thought were engaging 4307 03:55:30.760 --> 03:55:34.680 and interesting, but you know, as a whole, it just 4308 03:55:34.920 --> 03:55:36.559 doesn't in the end hold up. 4309 03:55:37.600 --> 03:55:39.559 Yeah, I felt like Mark had a really good point 4310 03:55:39.600 --> 03:55:42.000 when it came to the idea of this being told 4311 03:55:42.200 --> 03:55:44.040 like a fairy tale. You know, I mentioned the whole 4312 03:55:44.079 --> 03:55:47.399 thing with the evil mother slash stepmother, you know, the 4313 03:55:47.479 --> 03:55:50.360 little princess who's going to inherit the kingdom and all 4314 03:55:50.440 --> 03:55:53.760 these things, and man o man can you wanted nothing 4315 03:55:53.840 --> 03:55:56.200 to do with that. And then later on in the 4316 03:55:56.680 --> 03:55:59.280 in the commentary, he's basically embracing that and he's just like, 4317 03:55:59.319 --> 03:56:01.559 oh well yeah, like the little girl who's the princess. 4318 03:56:01.719 --> 03:56:04.280 I'm like, yeah, yeah, it was actually a good reading. 4319 03:56:04.920 --> 03:56:08.639 Wasn't completely off base. And we mentioned those red shoes. 4320 03:56:08.719 --> 03:56:10.280 I was like, yeah, he talks about how they're the 4321 03:56:10.360 --> 03:56:12.719 ruby slippers. Okay, I could kind of see that too, 4322 03:56:12.840 --> 03:56:15.520 and that's what, you know, leads her into this whole 4323 03:56:15.760 --> 03:56:17.879 quote unquote adventure because that's. 4324 03:56:17.719 --> 03:56:18.319 How she means. 4325 03:56:18.399 --> 03:56:21.079 No, he says that they are the ruby slippers, right, yeah, 4326 03:56:21.120 --> 03:56:21.479 oh yeah. 4327 03:56:21.559 --> 03:56:23.440 He's just like no, no, no, it just denies it. 4328 03:56:23.520 --> 03:56:25.600 But I'm saying, like Mark, the other guy was like, 4329 03:56:25.719 --> 03:56:29.040 oh oh so ruby slippers and yeah canoes just like yeah, 4330 03:56:29.040 --> 03:56:29.600 I know, fuck that. 4331 03:56:30.520 --> 03:56:33.680 Yeah, He's like that definitely was not the idea. I mean, 4332 03:56:33.760 --> 03:56:36.239 it makes sense. It's a Disney movie. She's got these 4333 03:56:36.319 --> 03:56:39.399 red shoes. It does kind of start everything going. And 4334 03:56:39.520 --> 03:56:41.680 I know, like you know, with somebody, as someone who 4335 03:56:41.719 --> 03:56:44.559 does a lot of film analysis, sometimes you just kind 4336 03:56:44.600 --> 03:56:47.760 of ignore what the director says because maybe the director 4337 03:56:47.920 --> 03:56:51.399 was doing something unconsciously and didn't even realize it. They 4338 03:56:51.479 --> 03:56:56.000 did choose red shoes, So maybe on a subconscious level, 4339 03:56:56.159 --> 03:56:58.600 it was, you know, thinking of the Wizard of Oz, 4340 03:56:58.639 --> 03:56:59.200 who knows. 4341 03:56:59.520 --> 03:57:02.559 Yeah even yeah, even just at the costume design. It 4342 03:57:02.680 --> 03:57:04.920 seems to me that Canoe is coming from this place 4343 03:57:05.040 --> 03:57:10.000 of just kind of being a studio filmmaker, you know, 4344 03:57:10.120 --> 03:57:13.639 a commerce kind of filmmaker as opposed to an art filmmaker. 4345 03:57:13.879 --> 03:57:17.079 And so he's going to be making decisions based on 4346 03:57:17.920 --> 03:57:20.079 what he can pull off, on what the budget is, 4347 03:57:20.239 --> 03:57:23.319 and you know, and try to come up with something interesting. 4348 03:57:23.399 --> 03:57:25.719 And I feel like this might be something that is 4349 03:57:25.799 --> 03:57:29.440 not as revelant now that we don't have as many 4350 03:57:29.479 --> 03:57:33.440 of those kinds of studio pictures happening. You know, it 4351 03:57:33.520 --> 03:57:35.479 seems like everything has to be a tent pole now 4352 03:57:35.600 --> 03:57:39.159 in a way that it wasn't. Then. I could see 4353 03:57:39.239 --> 03:57:41.239 him having to be kind of led along to seeing 4354 03:57:41.280 --> 03:57:44.879 where the art themes are are showing up in a 4355 03:57:44.959 --> 03:57:48.639 film that he probably really in the time was thinking 4356 03:57:48.719 --> 03:57:49.639 of it as just a job. 4357 03:57:50.680 --> 03:57:53.239 Was somebody like a Sam Fuller. Was he doing these 4358 03:57:53.280 --> 03:57:55.680 as just a job or were they all passion projects? 4359 03:57:55.840 --> 03:57:58.719 Was he thinking of all the things that we see 4360 03:57:58.840 --> 03:58:02.159 in his films and I feel like with somebody like him, 4361 03:58:02.239 --> 03:58:05.520 the answer is yes, that they were all passionate, that 4362 03:58:05.719 --> 03:58:08.639 they he was really thinking about all of these things. 4363 03:58:09.280 --> 03:58:11.479 But then yeah, it's like you think of the whole 4364 03:58:11.520 --> 03:58:14.680 aw tour theory and it's like, well, what was everybody 4365 03:58:14.799 --> 03:58:17.959 that self aware or were there people just taking the 4366 03:58:18.079 --> 03:58:20.840 job doing the This is my job, I make these movies, 4367 03:58:20.920 --> 03:58:24.079 I direct these movies. This is basically commerce to me. 4368 03:58:24.319 --> 03:58:27.520 So yeah, it's it's always fascinating to think about like 4369 03:58:27.639 --> 03:58:31.000 who really was being intentional about things and whose stuff 4370 03:58:31.079 --> 03:58:33.360 is more accidental. I mean, you even think about, like, 4371 03:58:33.959 --> 03:58:36.559 you know, the the hair color of the characters and everything, 4372 03:58:36.600 --> 03:58:39.520 and you have like, you know, Kathleen Turner and kat 4373 03:58:39.639 --> 03:58:42.799 the little girl are both blonde, and then the mom's 4374 03:58:42.840 --> 03:58:45.280 got this kind of crazy red hair and stuff. So 4375 03:58:45.799 --> 03:58:48.639 it's like they belong together because they're both blonde, and 4376 03:58:48.719 --> 03:58:51.799 they look more like mother and daughter than you know, 4377 03:58:52.040 --> 03:58:56.079 page or whatever. The mother character and she dresses in black, 4378 03:58:56.159 --> 03:58:58.760 she looks kind of witchy and all this stuff. It's like, yeah, 4379 03:58:58.959 --> 03:59:02.000 was that intentional or not? How far does that go? 4380 03:59:02.920 --> 03:59:04.840 Well, that's why I feel like it's very useful to 4381 03:59:04.920 --> 03:59:07.760 be able to say that you can disregard what the 4382 03:59:07.879 --> 03:59:11.040 director does or doesn't say. People do a lot of 4383 03:59:11.120 --> 03:59:15.600 things unintentionally, you know, they might not even realize, you know. 4384 03:59:15.639 --> 03:59:18.000 And I talk about it in my classes where I say, 4385 03:59:18.079 --> 03:59:20.840 you know, the director isn't living in a vacuum, right, 4386 03:59:20.879 --> 03:59:23.840 They're part of the popular culture that we're all living in, 4387 03:59:24.399 --> 03:59:26.719 and so they're going to be responding to it, even 4388 03:59:26.760 --> 03:59:30.079 if they aren't doing it on purpose. So I give 4389 03:59:30.159 --> 03:59:33.079 you permission to read into things and ignore what the 4390 03:59:33.159 --> 03:59:33.799 director says. 4391 03:59:34.719 --> 03:59:37.040 Just a little throwaway thing that I feel like I 4392 03:59:37.200 --> 03:59:40.760 have to say because I am such an advocate of Baltimore. 4393 03:59:41.680 --> 03:59:45.680 In the Wikipedia entry for this, it talks about how 4394 03:59:46.879 --> 03:59:50.159 there was a point where they were intending to set 4395 03:59:50.239 --> 03:59:54.319 this in Baltimore and not Chicago, which puzzles me. I 4396 03:59:54.360 --> 03:59:57.639 haven't really been able to explore that a little bit further. 4397 03:59:57.840 --> 04:00:00.520 But it doesn't make sense because that's it's not where 4398 04:00:00.600 --> 04:00:04.120 the Detective was set in the books, right, she said 4399 04:00:04.120 --> 04:00:06.680 in Chicago, you know, in Chicago in the books. The 4400 04:00:06.760 --> 04:00:08.799 greedy part of me is like, that'd be great to 4401 04:00:09.079 --> 04:00:12.399 have this set in Baltimore. But the question is why, 4402 04:00:12.479 --> 04:00:15.440 and especially you know, like imagine if that had happened, 4403 04:00:15.799 --> 04:00:18.360 and then she still continued to do Serial Mom just 4404 04:00:18.399 --> 04:00:21.680 a couple of years later. What would that be like, 4405 04:00:21.840 --> 04:00:24.280 you know, what would the world be like where we've 4406 04:00:24.360 --> 04:00:28.840 got the Warshawski franchise set in Baltimore and Serial Mom 4407 04:00:28.959 --> 04:00:29.600 is also there. 4408 04:00:30.360 --> 04:00:34.399 Speaking of the Warshowski franchise, I think it's always fascinating 4409 04:00:34.479 --> 04:00:38.319 to me when a studio is so wrong about a movie. 4410 04:00:38.920 --> 04:00:41.959 You know, like if you talk about Mommy Dearest, for instance, 4411 04:00:42.239 --> 04:00:44.040 you know that they originally thought this was going to 4412 04:00:44.079 --> 04:00:47.959 be like this Oscar worthy, serious drama, and they were 4413 04:00:48.040 --> 04:00:51.600 kind of blindsided by the fact that audiences had such 4414 04:00:51.600 --> 04:00:54.959 a you know, camp comedic response to it, and they 4415 04:00:55.120 --> 04:00:57.360 really thought this was going to be a successful movie, 4416 04:00:57.920 --> 04:01:00.639 and they were already in the works planning a sequel. 4417 04:01:01.000 --> 04:01:04.440 And in the sequel, the concept is that she settles 4418 04:01:04.520 --> 04:01:08.159 down to have her own child, which is like so 4419 04:01:08.440 --> 04:01:12.719 incongruous from what v. I. Worshowsky is supposed to represent 4420 04:01:13.440 --> 04:01:17.159 that It's just it's like, why even use the Puresky 4421 04:01:17.239 --> 04:01:19.520 books as like your source material if you're just going 4422 04:01:19.600 --> 04:01:23.120 to go so far, you know, off the plantation or 4423 04:01:23.159 --> 04:01:24.159 whatever the expression is. 4424 04:01:25.000 --> 04:01:28.399 Yeah, like I said, it's very, very loose when it 4425 04:01:28.520 --> 04:01:35.079 comes to what they take from Deadlock, and it kind 4426 04:01:35.120 --> 04:01:38.760 of again selfishly like you were saying rain for me. 4427 04:01:39.600 --> 04:01:41.840 Parts of the book actually take place at the Sioux 4428 04:01:41.920 --> 04:01:46.719 Locks up in Sioux City, Michigan slash Canada. It's where 4429 04:01:46.760 --> 04:01:49.959 we have the locks I can go through and you know, 4430 04:01:50.159 --> 04:01:52.159 for the shipping lanes and all those things, and like 4431 04:01:52.239 --> 04:01:55.840 I said, Thunder Bay up in Canada and all of 4432 04:01:55.879 --> 04:01:57.159 these things where I was just like, oh yeah, I 4433 04:01:57.239 --> 04:01:59.040 can picture all of this stuff in my head. So 4434 04:01:59.159 --> 04:02:01.520 as I'm reading the book or listening to the book, 4435 04:02:01.559 --> 04:02:04.120 I'm just like picturing all of these places that I've 4436 04:02:04.120 --> 04:02:06.479 actually been to before, and it's just like, oh yeah, 4437 04:02:06.559 --> 04:02:08.799 this will be great to see this on film. But 4438 04:02:08.959 --> 04:02:13.079 of course it never leaves Chicago. It's just all in Chicago. 4439 04:02:13.159 --> 04:02:16.440 And so like the shipping, I mean, at the end 4440 04:02:16.479 --> 04:02:18.399 of the movie, the shipping has nothing to do with it. 4441 04:02:18.559 --> 04:02:20.360 That's what they figure out. It's like, oh yeah, the 4442 04:02:20.840 --> 04:02:23.799 shipping has absolutely nothing to do with this. It's all 4443 04:02:23.879 --> 04:02:29.200 about this beachfront property that was granted to your waterfront 4444 04:02:29.239 --> 04:02:31.559 property I should say that was granted to the granddaughter 4445 04:02:31.719 --> 04:02:34.280 to cat to the little girl in the movie. And 4446 04:02:34.639 --> 04:02:37.959 so she's the key. She's basically the walking, talking mcguffin 4447 04:02:38.040 --> 04:02:40.840 of this movie. Fuck me. Then, I guess this whole 4448 04:02:40.879 --> 04:02:43.559 thing about shipping stuff just really doesn't matter. I'm glad 4449 04:02:43.559 --> 04:02:45.840 that they don't go into it too much, but you 4450 04:02:45.920 --> 04:02:47.959 also I don't. For me, I don't really get a 4451 04:02:48.079 --> 04:02:52.399 feel for the brothers that much, especially the one brother 4452 04:02:53.440 --> 04:02:57.440 who's not Trumble. I guess his name is Horton. Frederick 4453 04:02:57.520 --> 04:03:02.399 Coffin plays him, who I mostly remember as the I 4454 04:03:02.479 --> 04:03:06.399 think famously for me, he's the cop that Wayne and 4455 04:03:06.520 --> 04:03:09.120 Garthur are making fun of in Wayne's world. And then 4456 04:03:09.200 --> 04:03:11.600 you get the one of the guys, the guy who 4457 04:03:11.719 --> 04:03:15.159 was with the Arenberg who kidnaps her. I think he's 4458 04:03:15.239 --> 04:03:18.479 also in Wayne's world. Like, these are very Chicago actors, 4459 04:03:18.760 --> 04:03:20.879 and I was really glad for that, and I'm glad 4460 04:03:20.920 --> 04:03:23.959 that they embraced the Chicago News. I was actually happy 4461 04:03:24.559 --> 04:03:26.760 this doesn't again take place in the book, but the 4462 04:03:28.120 --> 04:03:31.079 chase on the Chicago River, I was like, Okay, well, 4463 04:03:31.120 --> 04:03:33.520 this is nice. It's good to actually use the city 4464 04:03:33.840 --> 04:03:37.760 because otherwise, other than like really feeled, we don't see 4465 04:03:37.799 --> 04:03:40.559 a whole lot of the Chicago nests of stuff. I 4466 04:03:40.639 --> 04:03:42.559 don't think he thinks she eats a hot dog, and 4467 04:03:42.639 --> 04:03:46.600 from wonders understand, people in Chicago just live on hot dogs. 4468 04:03:47.479 --> 04:03:50.120 I would hot dogs and deep dish pizza. 4469 04:03:51.000 --> 04:03:54.120 Canoe seem to be very taken with the fact that 4470 04:03:54.200 --> 04:03:56.559 it was in Chicago and seemed to, you know, take 4471 04:03:56.799 --> 04:04:01.000 personal delight in all the real locations that they were 4472 04:04:01.040 --> 04:04:04.280 able to use and everything. So it wasn't like, oh, 4473 04:04:04.360 --> 04:04:06.319 we were just in Chicago because they gave us a 4474 04:04:06.360 --> 04:04:07.079 tax freebait. 4475 04:04:07.879 --> 04:04:10.600 Well, even the house that she lives in that street 4476 04:04:10.719 --> 04:04:14.040 that she's on, and those types of houses very much 4477 04:04:14.120 --> 04:04:16.799 remind me of a friend of mine who lives in Chicago, 4478 04:04:17.000 --> 04:04:19.680 in the house that he lives. And I know that 4479 04:04:20.520 --> 04:04:22.639 the guy in the commentary track Mark is like, Oh, 4480 04:04:22.799 --> 04:04:25.959 she's got this huge apartment. I'm like, they're at Yeah, 4481 04:04:25.959 --> 04:04:28.719 they're pretty good size. But this is not New York City. 4482 04:04:28.840 --> 04:04:31.600 This is a world where you could, well, at this time, 4483 04:04:31.719 --> 04:04:34.280 you still could have a decent sized apartment for not 4484 04:04:34.479 --> 04:04:37.319 that crazy amount of money. This isn't San Francisco either. 4485 04:04:38.000 --> 04:04:40.319 And it doesn't look like a super posh apartment. 4486 04:04:41.200 --> 04:04:42.479 No, it looks dingy as hell. 4487 04:04:43.399 --> 04:04:45.920 Yeah, I was kind of surprised in the commentary where 4488 04:04:45.959 --> 04:04:47.799 he's sort of saying, like, how it seems weird that 4489 04:04:47.920 --> 04:04:50.040 she can afford this apartment, and I was like, wow, 4490 04:04:50.120 --> 04:04:51.639 I did not get that impression. 4491 04:04:52.479 --> 04:04:53.719 Did not look very lavish. 4492 04:04:54.760 --> 04:04:57.639 It goes along with her car, Yeah, and that's. 4493 04:04:57.639 --> 04:05:00.239 One of the big action moments in the book is 4494 04:05:01.600 --> 04:05:05.559 she gets her brakes cut and ends up getting into 4495 04:05:05.600 --> 04:05:10.639 an accident on either ninety four or the like sure 4496 04:05:10.760 --> 04:05:12.879 drive at fifty five or whatever it is, and it's 4497 04:05:12.959 --> 04:05:17.200 like that's really like she gets really fucked up from that, 4498 04:05:17.479 --> 04:05:20.239 Like that really almost takes her out of commission, but 4499 04:05:20.399 --> 04:05:23.239 luckily she has the wherewithal to actually be able to 4500 04:05:23.879 --> 04:05:26.959 survive that. And that's when they really introduced that doctor character, 4501 04:05:27.079 --> 04:05:30.360 who again is just like shows up for three scenes 4502 04:05:30.479 --> 04:05:32.879 and she's kind of out of there, and you really 4503 04:05:32.959 --> 04:05:36.280 get a sense of friendship of those characters. And I understand, 4504 04:05:36.360 --> 04:05:38.159 like a book is a book and a movie's a movie, 4505 04:05:38.239 --> 04:05:42.079 but like just the characterization of these people, it's like, yeah, 4506 04:05:42.239 --> 04:05:44.360 give me more of their relationship or would that be 4507 04:05:44.479 --> 04:05:47.280 too lesbian if we have two women talk on screen 4508 04:05:47.399 --> 04:05:48.639 for more than five minutes. 4509 04:05:49.520 --> 04:05:51.840 I mean it was nineteen ninety one, so you know, 4510 04:05:52.760 --> 04:05:55.559 only lesbians talk to each other on film at that point. 4511 04:05:56.159 --> 04:05:58.760 Unless they're talking about a man, then it's okay. 4512 04:05:58.959 --> 04:06:02.079 Which a lot of this is, yeah, failing the Bechdel. 4513 04:06:01.760 --> 04:06:04.360 Test for sure, which is unfortunate because it could have 4514 04:06:04.440 --> 04:06:10.159 been this great, empowering feminist movie and instead we get this. 4515 04:06:11.200 --> 04:06:13.959 By the way, I hope I haven't mispronounced Borshowsky as 4516 04:06:14.000 --> 04:06:17.680 I've been going through this, but as somebody who grew 4517 04:06:17.799 --> 04:06:20.280 up with a lot of Polish people in his life, 4518 04:06:21.040 --> 04:06:24.200 most Polish names other than the seas the seas get 4519 04:06:24.239 --> 04:06:26.799 pronounced a little bit differently, but most of them is 4520 04:06:26.879 --> 04:06:29.559 just as easy as it looks. Is how you pronounce it, 4521 04:06:29.600 --> 04:06:31.520 just like wo joh, howitz what I would say? You 4522 04:06:31.600 --> 04:06:33.520 spell it just like it sounds, You say it just 4523 04:06:33.600 --> 04:06:36.120 like it looks. I know that becomes like the funny thing. 4524 04:06:36.360 --> 04:06:38.799 And I'm surprised that there isn't more of that in 4525 04:06:38.920 --> 04:06:42.319 the trailer, though I was surprised with the trailer of this, 4526 04:06:43.200 --> 04:06:45.319 and I'm trying to remember, is there a moment in 4527 04:06:45.440 --> 04:06:48.760 the movie where Charles Dirning spells her name, because that 4528 04:06:49.000 --> 04:06:52.760 goes through the trailers him spelling her name at one point, 4529 04:06:53.440 --> 04:06:56.000 but it sure is there in that trailer and I 4530 04:06:56.120 --> 04:06:57.879 know Canue said that there are a few scenes that 4531 04:06:57.959 --> 04:07:01.920 they ended up cutting out and include why j Saunders's 4532 04:07:02.000 --> 04:07:07.319 face is all sooty because she makes him go after 4533 04:07:07.440 --> 04:07:10.040 her apartment gets firebombed, which seems like a really big 4534 04:07:10.079 --> 04:07:12.760 deal after an apartment gets fire bombed. She makes him 4535 04:07:12.799 --> 04:07:16.440 go save those goblets of her mother's because that's when 4536 04:07:16.520 --> 04:07:18.879 we first see him. He's drinking out of one of 4537 04:07:18.959 --> 04:07:21.600 these goblets, and she's like, oh, it's the only thing 4538 04:07:21.639 --> 04:07:23.440 that my mother brought over from the old Country. And 4539 04:07:23.479 --> 04:07:26.319 apparently there was more about her father as well. I'm 4540 04:07:26.360 --> 04:07:28.360 okay if they cut that out, they had enough about 4541 04:07:28.399 --> 04:07:30.559 her dad in here, because I you know, it's that 4542 04:07:30.680 --> 04:07:33.399 whole thing like a strong woman has to have a 4543 04:07:33.479 --> 04:07:36.079 strong father who taught her right. You know, good Lord, 4544 04:07:36.200 --> 04:07:38.760 you can't have a strong woman that didn't have a 4545 04:07:38.840 --> 04:07:41.920 strong father. All right, We're going to take another break 4546 04:07:41.959 --> 04:07:44.360 and play PREV for next week's show right after these 4547 04:07:44.399 --> 04:07:45.639 brief messages. 4548 04:07:53.040 --> 04:07:56.440 And film fan Heimmu Koitner is this and his manaster 4549 04:07:56.520 --> 04:08:01.719 Forlon and Bad Night that Lose on the lands bar 4550 04:08:02.479 --> 04:08:04.360 Yess and a teens. 4551 04:08:04.120 --> 04:08:06.920 There's Peggy and the w as Madeira Father and oslaa 4552 04:08:06.959 --> 04:08:08.879 and Keira as Foss brother and Midle. 4553 04:08:11.079 --> 04:08:15.000 Small scientists and dish wrestler. 4554 04:08:15.120 --> 04:08:17.920 The APIs the amist. 4555 04:08:19.360 --> 04:08:23.319 Priest for the cloves for the zebra for them Anglison. 4556 04:08:23.559 --> 04:08:31.399 Good vision, don't nova gives pistos. 4557 04:08:31.520 --> 04:08:32.360 Next march to the of. 4558 04:08:32.440 --> 04:08:40.000 Us jolt and a man on loon and the bat 4559 04:08:40.280 --> 04:08:44.559 American rakitin Bason and a ropa albata pass it that's 4560 04:08:44.639 --> 04:08:47.760 misquichic with and a fouri shwats and cases. You have 4561 04:08:47.840 --> 04:08:52.879 a Chetonville Nafts and only kabites of fur Helmut kit 4562 04:08:52.959 --> 04:08:55.040 and puts in and it's wheelish together. 4563 04:08:56.000 --> 04:08:58.760 That's this their job of us and cools. Yes, this 4564 04:08:58.879 --> 04:09:00.040 isn't all stars. 4565 04:09:01.280 --> 04:09:06.120 And the modern technique and as lands one dimensions aren't 4566 04:09:06.879 --> 04:09:13.239 a fang of the last, the stems, the leaders of 4567 04:09:13.319 --> 04:09:17.520 the yacht an ambusing look lambs hung I have on 4568 04:09:17.760 --> 04:09:19.360 at very. 4569 04:09:21.079 --> 04:09:23.440 And if he lambos. 4570 04:09:26.280 --> 04:09:31.920 A sous an that questions inst I mentioned sun. 4571 04:09:34.319 --> 04:09:34.760 From listening. 4572 04:09:35.360 --> 04:09:37.639 He had to pull it taifers the links and your 4573 04:09:37.680 --> 04:09:40.559 da and pressure over of the lower SUSI. 4574 04:09:40.200 --> 04:09:45.600 My cockdain oil boss that's name and kids Schwartz and keys. 4575 04:09:54.840 --> 04:09:58.479 The maskaphon Yeah, the gram of famous next to ft. 4576 04:10:16.319 --> 04:10:20.360 Have I stuff, I know doing mon Yeah, I give 4577 04:10:20.399 --> 04:10:34.239 just the one funds. 4578 04:10:32.799 --> 04:10:36.920 Said peace and high Sis team mountains my target. 4579 04:10:40.120 --> 04:10:42.200 That's right. We will be back next week with a 4580 04:10:42.319 --> 04:10:45.000 look at black Gravel. Until then, I want to thank 4581 04:10:45.040 --> 04:10:47.360 my co host Rain and Dahlia. So Dahalia, what is 4582 04:10:47.440 --> 04:10:48.360 new in your world, ma'am? 4583 04:10:49.200 --> 04:10:51.840 Before I talk about what I'm working on now, I 4584 04:10:51.959 --> 04:10:54.719 just wanted to suggest that people might be interested in 4585 04:10:54.879 --> 04:10:57.360 reading my l A Private Ezed book, which is the 4586 04:10:57.440 --> 04:11:01.319 book in which I talk about uh the Warshawski even 4587 04:11:01.360 --> 04:11:04.319 though it is said in Chicago, there are so few 4588 04:11:04.799 --> 04:11:08.799 female private Eye movies that I use Bi Warshawski as 4589 04:11:08.879 --> 04:11:11.760 as kind of a case study. So that's not a 4590 04:11:11.920 --> 04:11:14.639 new book, but it's one that's relevant to our conversation. 4591 04:11:14.920 --> 04:11:18.159 And then at the moment these days, I am locked 4592 04:11:18.239 --> 04:11:20.280 up in my apartment on a sabbatical working on my 4593 04:11:20.360 --> 04:11:25.559 next book, which is called Dead Bombshells The Afterlife popular 4594 04:11:25.639 --> 04:11:31.399 Culture's most glamorous Corpses, and it it basically looks at 4595 04:11:32.520 --> 04:11:36.719 how we turn these sort of glamorous corpses into symbols 4596 04:11:36.799 --> 04:11:42.120 of beauty, tragedy, desire, how they integrate politics of gender, race, 4597 04:11:42.200 --> 04:11:46.760 and celebrity. And I look at people like the Black Dahlia, 4598 04:11:47.079 --> 04:11:53.159 Marilyn Monroe, Jane Mansfield, Anna Nicole Smith, Princess Diana, Selena 4599 04:11:53.360 --> 04:11:56.879 Whitney Houston. Each person gets a chapter and I kind 4600 04:11:56.920 --> 04:12:00.680 of look at their afterlife and what kind of collective 4601 04:12:00.760 --> 04:12:03.840 fantasies have been spawn since their death and. 4602 04:12:03.959 --> 04:12:05.520 Rain, how about yourself? What's going on with you? 4603 04:12:06.520 --> 04:12:10.079 Well, as we're recording this, I've got an art show 4604 04:12:10.239 --> 04:12:13.239 that's up here at a gallery in Baltimore called Current 4605 04:12:13.360 --> 04:12:17.200 Space that has been two years in the making, and 4606 04:12:17.799 --> 04:12:20.680 so I think by the time it's airs that will 4607 04:12:20.719 --> 04:12:23.360 have closed. Sadly, but hopefully, you know, if you want 4608 04:12:23.399 --> 04:12:25.280 to see it, get in contact and maybe we can 4609 04:12:25.319 --> 04:12:27.440 set up at a gallery near you. 4610 04:12:27.879 --> 04:12:30.000 And you know, I was. 4611 04:12:30.000 --> 04:12:34.360 Supposed to hear back on a residency today and I 4612 04:12:34.639 --> 04:12:36.719 just got that email just now that said I did 4613 04:12:36.799 --> 04:12:41.360 not get that residency. Which it's fine because you know 4614 04:12:41.479 --> 04:12:44.239 what this is the you know this is this is 4615 04:12:44.319 --> 04:12:48.440 my advice to the world who are applying for residencies 4616 04:12:48.520 --> 04:12:50.680 and grants and stuff like that. Once you put that 4617 04:12:50.760 --> 04:12:54.639 application out there, just pretend you're not going to get it. 4618 04:12:55.319 --> 04:12:57.479 Just think I'm not going to get this and move 4619 04:12:57.559 --> 04:12:59.479 on to that next thing, and so I'm kind of 4620 04:12:59.520 --> 04:13:02.079 in that head space. You know, it would have been 4621 04:13:02.120 --> 04:13:04.959 cool to have gotten this, but you know, it means 4622 04:13:05.000 --> 04:13:07.120 that I'm going to have a little more time this 4623 04:13:07.280 --> 04:13:12.120 winter to develop that next project. So I will just 4624 04:13:12.159 --> 04:13:14.520 say watch this space. I'm sure I'm going to be 4625 04:13:14.600 --> 04:13:17.159 back on the projection Booth before too much longer, and 4626 04:13:17.200 --> 04:13:18.440 I'll tell you all about what I'm up to. 4627 04:13:18.559 --> 04:13:18.680 Then. 4628 04:13:19.920 --> 04:13:21.959 Well, thank you so much ladies for being on the show. 4629 04:13:22.079 --> 04:13:25.239 Thanks to everybody for listening. Want to support physical media 4630 04:13:25.319 --> 04:13:27.920 and get great movies by mail, head over to scarecrow 4631 04:13:27.959 --> 04:13:31.120 dot com and try Scarecrow Videos incredible rent by mail service, 4632 04:13:31.440 --> 04:13:35.440 the largest publicly available accessible collection in the world. You 4633 04:13:35.520 --> 04:13:39.479 will find films there entirely unavailable elsewhere. Get what you want, 4634 04:13:39.559 --> 04:13:42.079 when you want it, without the scrolling. If you want 4635 04:13:42.120 --> 04:13:43.760 to hear more of me shooting off my mouth, check 4636 04:13:43.760 --> 04:13:45.440 out some of the other shows that I work on. 4637 04:13:45.840 --> 04:13:49.120 They are all available at Weirdingwaymedia dot com. Thanks especially 4638 04:13:49.200 --> 04:13:51.680 to our Patreon community. If you want to join the community, 4639 04:13:51.840 --> 04:13:55.120 visit Patreon dot com. Slash Projection Booth. Every donation we 4640 04:13:55.239 --> 04:14:46.079 get help some Projection Booth take over the World's. 4641 04:14:21.719 --> 04:14:27.440 Girl starts one the deep pencil paint stree pencil correct 4642 04:14:28.600 --> 04:14:32.079 red dodsons. 4643 04:14:35.719 --> 04:14:45.559 She looks so good, veget fled. She's watching the detectives. Oooh, 4644 04:14:46.079 --> 04:15:02.920 you're so cute. She's watching the detectives. The right start again, shot. 4645 04:15:10.920 --> 04:15:15.760 Loud, shot, a dead jumping side, in visible shivers run 4646 04:15:16.000 --> 04:15:21.840 down as mine. The anything can not being close because 4647 04:15:21.879 --> 04:15:24.559 some of the sand that says you never close. 4648 04:15:25.200 --> 04:15:28.840 It's not to chilling your that just sing red. She 4649 04:15:29.040 --> 04:15:31.879 pulls to hack down with a face lack of paget. 4650 04:15:32.479 --> 04:15:36.159 I don't know how get more of this at Cade. 4651 04:15:39.680 --> 04:15:44.200 She's silenced her nails while the dragon the day. 4652 04:15:45.639 --> 04:15:48.360 She's watching the detectives. 4653 04:15:50.120 --> 04:15:51.399 He's so cute. 4654 04:15:52.840 --> 04:15:55.600 She's watching the detectives. 4655 04:15:57.719 --> 04:16:05.520 Shut me uptil the cheese rup start again, doing what 4656 04:16:05.719 --> 04:16:16.079 he does. He's l hard. You take your alone until 4657 04:16:16.120 --> 04:16:22.000 you realize you're in nappy to see if everything it 4658 04:16:22.200 --> 04:16:25.040 is the chi with his the legal and little and 4659 04:16:25.159 --> 04:16:32.159 stretching at the window windows is protectives belong to the parents, 4660 04:16:32.200 --> 04:16:35.840 who already is the rest about the test appearance. So 4661 04:16:36.000 --> 04:16:38.559 it's till it's just a mire goal to catching the 4662 04:16:38.680 --> 04:16:42.200 stay on that little fingers to blow you. 4663 04:16:45.479 --> 04:16:48.040 Just like watching the pets. 4664 04:16:49.840 --> 04:16:57.959 Don't get cute, but just La like watching her detectives, gets. 4665 04:16:57.799 --> 04:17:08.520 Angry and the tea Drup start all watching the detectives. 4666 04:17:13.000 --> 04:17:21.719 Let's just strike watching the detectives, watching the detectives, watching 4667 04:17:21.840 --> 04:17:23.000 the detectives 4668 04:17:24.879 --> 04:17:32.319 Watching the backs, watch at the bat