Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, welcome to another episode of Soccer for US.
Speaker 1: I am Mark and on this episode we're gonna be
Speaker 1: chatting about well, it's MLS kickoff weekend, so we're going
Speaker 1: to be chatting about not MLS, which is kind of funny.
Speaker 1: We are going to be talking about the USL United
Speaker 1: Soccer League, as you as the extrapolated name of it is,
Speaker 1: and their news that they are going to launch a
Speaker 1: Division one men's league come twenty eight, So to talk
Speaker 1: about that with me on this episode is the greatest
Speaker 1: historian on US soccer Twitter. It is Thomas aka us
Speaker 1: Key for US. Good evening, How are you this evening?
Speaker 2: I'm doing fine, cold up here in the Northeast, so
Speaker 2: MLS season kicking off might hopefully give me a little
Speaker 2: warmth of my soccer socker heart to get me through
Speaker 2: these cold winter days.
Speaker 1: It is. Indeed, I will be at a tailgate this
Speaker 1: Saturday for Atlanta Nights home opener and the lowest twenty seven,
Speaker 1: the highest forty nine, so that'll be a fun Saturday.
Speaker 1: Hopefully it's closer to forty nine. And when we're tail dating.
Speaker 1: Also joining us is the man who is the lead
Speaker 1: soccer writer for Bluff City Media and the host of
Speaker 1: the nine er one Soccer podcast, which is also on
Speaker 1: the Bluff City Media Network. It is Lawrence Docker. You've
Speaker 1: heard him on here before. Lawrence, welcome back.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Not to rub salt in any wounds, but you're not
Speaker 1: really part of USL anymore, but you have a lot
Speaker 1: of valuable insight and I think you're particular. Also, maybe grudge,
Speaker 1: if I put it that way nicely, might come into
Speaker 1: play here tonight.
Speaker 4: Well I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't know that any of the parties involved that
Speaker 3: we're going to be talking about tonight, I necessarily hold
Speaker 3: a grudge against any of them. My grudge is more
Speaker 3: against the Memphis Grizzlies. But you know they operate, They
Speaker 3: operate like a certain Italian organization from the seventies in
Speaker 3: New York. So I better not say too much or
Speaker 3: they're going to find me in the back of a
Speaker 3: car somewhere. But no, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll end
Speaker 3: up in the river. You know, Memphis nine I want
Speaker 3: to see, unfortunately no longer part of the USL. You know,
Speaker 3: I covered them from day one, like their very first game,
Speaker 3: all the way until their last game, probably think probably
Speaker 3: close to eighty ninety something Memphis nine to one to
Speaker 3: see home games. I got to go on the road
Speaker 3: several times and cover them I think maybe three or
Speaker 3: four times. So that was that was always a lot
Speaker 3: of fun. And we can talk about my experiences and
Speaker 3: so of those red games. I'm sure that'll become important
Speaker 3: later tonight. But yeah, it's it's when this when this
Speaker 3: story broke, I just it's it's one of those ones
Speaker 3: where I just I just want why, Like what what? Why?
Speaker 1: Why is the question that we're hopefully I don't know
Speaker 1: if we'll answer it, because only I think a select
Speaker 1: group of people know. But we're going to talk about it.
Speaker 3: But before we answer that, I can't answer the why
Speaker 3: not Well.
Speaker 1: We probably all can. Before we get into that, Thomas,
Speaker 1: I got to ask you, man, we watched the last
Speaker 1: time we recorded. We were keeping up with a twenty
Speaker 1: two to nothing drubbing by the US U seventeen national
Speaker 1: team over the British, the US version I keep calling
Speaker 1: them the British version Islands, the US Virgin Islands. We
Speaker 1: owned them and we beat them that badly real quick.
Speaker 1: They qualify for the U seventeen World Cup. They conceded
Speaker 1: zero goals the entire tournament, they scored thirty Did I
Speaker 1: do the math right?
Speaker 2: I think it's twenty nine knowledge one that no knowledge one,
Speaker 2: that's thirty thirty one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, three. They scored a lot of goals, Thomas. Look,
Speaker 1: the competition was what it was, But I just want
Speaker 1: to know your thoughts on the guys and what this
Speaker 1: means for them and as we look forward at now
Speaker 1: the U seventeen World Cup that we've officially qualified for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's always good to qualify for the
Speaker 2: World Up for these young for these young U seventeen players.
Speaker 2: I mean the Cuba match was the most competitive match to.
Speaker 4: Nil win for them. I don't think we took a
Speaker 4: lot from that. In general.
Speaker 2: There are some players that you'll probably want to watch, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, out of this group. But it's just I'm
Speaker 2: disappointed that we didn't have a knockout stage of the tournament.
Speaker 2: You know, fine, have your have qualifying, but also to
Speaker 2: have a knockout stage for these players to kind of experience.
Speaker 4: That level of tournament heading into that tournament.
Speaker 2: So because eight and eighteens qualified, so it's it's a
Speaker 2: big group from Cockcaff heading to this h you know,
Speaker 2: uh you seventeen World Cup.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it definitely given the expanded field, this was the
Speaker 1: most logical way to determine eight qualify qualifiers. But I'm
Speaker 1: with you, I wish we would have had some sort
Speaker 1: of a knockout round, because you know, it's just more fun, Lawrence,
Speaker 1: like I said, I don't think you could look at
Speaker 1: this and go, wow, that was we learned something. I mean,
Speaker 1: the Cube game was was at least competitive, but even
Speaker 1: then it's like what will re we We had to
Speaker 1: not lose, which was unlikely to happen anyway, but hey,
Speaker 1: we got the job done.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's it's it's one where you know, that's
Speaker 3: what you're You're just scrolling through the Twitter feed and
Speaker 3: I saw it was like half like seventeen nothing. I said,
Speaker 3: hang on, time out now wait hey now, but so
Speaker 3: I mean, scoring that many goals, good, winning all your games, good,
Speaker 3: Conceding zero goals good. I'm with both of you, guys.
Speaker 3: I do wish that maybe there had been some sort
Speaker 3: of knockout stage. Maybe probably might have gone roughly the
Speaker 3: same way as the group stage. But that's where the
Speaker 3: pressure gets cooked cranked up, is in the knockout rounds.
Speaker 3: That's where you know, the games matter more than they
Speaker 3: do in the group stage and it's winner go home.
Speaker 3: I think having that level of pressure cooker type experience
Speaker 3: is nothing but a good thing going into and again
Speaker 3: this is this is the U seventeens. I mean I
Speaker 3: refere you seventeen games all the time.
Speaker 1: So sorry, how many of the teams that you referee
Speaker 1: could have beat the US Virgin Islands? Like, let's let's
Speaker 1: be really.
Speaker 3: Like regular weekend tournament to Mike Rose, maybe not a
Speaker 3: whole lot, but you get to events like President's Cup
Speaker 3: and Regionals and Nationals. Yeah, I think there are any
Speaker 3: any number of them. Probably not too.
Speaker 1: That was my unfortunate thought the whole time was like, man,
Speaker 1: I've some of the e CNL teams that I get,
Speaker 1: you know, some of the NAL teams. The Yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: we got the job done. That's what matters. The women
Speaker 1: will have their U seventeen qualifiers coming up in April?
Speaker 1: Did I get that right?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And up March thirty, first start April. It starts in April,
Speaker 1: so that'll be a hopefully a summer Lily, I don't
Speaker 1: want to say dismissive, but guaranteed path to the World Cup.
Speaker 1: That would be great. That is done. So let's that
Speaker 1: has done. So let's move on to what we actually
Speaker 1: came here to talk about. The United Soccer League announced
Speaker 1: last week right before Valentine's Day, they were showing some
Speaker 1: love to the soccer world that they are going to
Speaker 1: take a quote bold step forward with the launch of
Speaker 1: a Division one professional men's league. First off Division one.
Speaker 1: Obviously they have a League one. What does that mean? Well,
Speaker 1: Division one is what MLS is, right, it is what
Speaker 1: the English Premier League is. It is what La Liga is,
Speaker 1: It's what lega MK says. It's basically the designation that
Speaker 1: US Soccer gives to the quote top flight league.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: There are standards you have to meet. We will talk
Speaker 1: about those in a bit, but in theory, it's the
Speaker 1: league that's at the top of the pyramid. US Soccer
Speaker 1: only has one of those right now, it is MLS.
Speaker 1: There have been others that have tried in the past,
Speaker 1: including an ASL well Air Quotes tried tried to form
Speaker 1: a Division one pessional league and for many different reasons,
Speaker 1: were unable to do that. Obviously, the most recent example
Speaker 1: of NASL went to court over this because they claimed
Speaker 1: that US Soccer and MLS formed a monopoly structure that
Speaker 1: only allowed MLS to have Division one status because of
Speaker 1: those professional league standards, and the court basically told NASL
Speaker 1: that didn't try hard enough. And while that may or
Speaker 1: may not be true, it's mostly true. The reality is
Speaker 1: that they do have standards that you have to meet
Speaker 1: to meet to become a Division one league because we
Speaker 1: do not have promotion and relegation. US Soccer League's plans
Speaker 1: are to launch this league in twenty twenty seven eight, which,
Speaker 1: if you're counting at home, is two to three years away,
Speaker 1: and that is going to be kind of the focus
Speaker 1: of our conversation tonight is can they pull it off? Because,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, others have tried in the past, MLS,
Speaker 1: let's be roll honest, almost didn't do it for the
Speaker 1: first couple of years. I mean, it took a while
Speaker 1: for MLS to become solvent and to become profitable and
Speaker 1: to become legitimate. There is obviously an upharel bat battle
Speaker 1: for USL. But I'll first start and then I'll put
Speaker 1: this to you all as the actual question. But I
Speaker 1: will say the question is why are they doing this?
Speaker 1: And they gave us the answer of they're bringing the
Speaker 1: highest level of soccer to more communities, elevating the sport
Speaker 1: and taking another step towards aligning with the global game,
Speaker 1: providing more opportunities. That is the subhead of their press release.
Speaker 1: But Lawrence, maybe you have a better answer of why
Speaker 1: is USLL doing this?
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't. I don't know that I do have a
Speaker 3: better answer, because it's it doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker 3: It's it's just there's there's there's there's no reason to
Speaker 3: do this. There's just not and and we'll touch on
Speaker 3: I don't want to want to blow the whole show
Speaker 3: here in the first fifteen minutes, but I mean, I
Speaker 3: guess nominally you want to take the game to more places,
Speaker 3: which on the surface is a good thing. I don't
Speaker 3: know what in your existing league structure is preventing you
Speaker 3: from doing that right now instead of waiting until two
Speaker 3: thy twenty whatever. One of the I have. I have
Speaker 3: a litany of concerns. I have a host of questions.
Speaker 3: And like every new startup league whatever, you can go
Speaker 3: back and watch any number of sports docks on Netflix.
Speaker 3: One of the biggest concern right now should be they're
Speaker 3: not giving themselves nearly enough runway to get this off
Speaker 3: the ground. I mean you're talking, I mean, you got
Speaker 3: the World Cup here next year, and you want to
Speaker 3: launch a new league the year after that.
Speaker 4: That is.
Speaker 3: I think that's that's a recipe for disaster. I think
Speaker 3: this might end up going the way of the old,
Speaker 3: the original XFL, where they gave themselves no time to
Speaker 3: do anything and it was a success for a day
Speaker 3: and then and then it imploded.
Speaker 4: So I.
Speaker 3: My gut tells me this is what they think they
Speaker 3: need to do to capitalize on the World Cup being
Speaker 3: in the United States, and it is my belief, in
Speaker 3: my opinion, that it is folly because there's already like
Speaker 3: they would be much better served stabilizing what they have
Speaker 3: and bettering their existing product than trying to add to
Speaker 3: it and essentially newter some of the best things that
Speaker 3: they have going.
Speaker 1: That's a great point that Thomas, you and I have
Speaker 1: talked about this. It very clearly seems like the why
Speaker 1: is to capitalize on the World Cup. But isn't it
Speaker 1: fair to say, well, you can still you know, put
Speaker 1: soccer in more communities and capitalize on the excitement of
Speaker 1: the World Cup while just having Division two and three teams.
Speaker 2: You can, I mean, and I think the model is
Speaker 2: challenging because they have to again we'll get into it, well,
Speaker 2: you have to meet certain minimum requirements for for uh,
Speaker 2: you know, Division one status, and I think that's I
Speaker 2: think that's where they're going to fall short. I don't
Speaker 2: know if an exception for a period of time, but
Speaker 2: you know, to Lawrence's point, they are they're very much
Speaker 2: rushing into this. I mean, you can't. It's not like, oh,
Speaker 2: we've got to do it now. Because I think they
Speaker 2: have a unique brand. I think I think they are
Speaker 2: properly set up to go to promotion relegation in terms
Speaker 2: of just how it's set up. I mean, yes, they
Speaker 2: don't have huge stadiums from for most of these sorts
Speaker 2: of things, but like it is unique, a unique product,
Speaker 2: and it's more accessible than MLS in a lot of
Speaker 2: ways to be able.
Speaker 4: To watch the matches. Right, So like like take that uniqueness.
Speaker 4: I understand it's maybe a money grab a little bit,
Speaker 4: but you know, learn from the NASL. You know, they
Speaker 4: could not do it.
Speaker 2: They had eight years, you know, when they came back
Speaker 2: in twenty eleven, and they weren't able to really hold
Speaker 2: it and you know, MLS is growing, it still growing
Speaker 2: very rapidly with you know, their teams, and I.
Speaker 4: Think I think there may be ulterior motives.
Speaker 2: Personally, I don't know if they're trying to try to
Speaker 2: align with the MLS in some way and trying to
Speaker 2: partner with them a little bit.
Speaker 4: I think there's an opportunity there, but I just don't know.
Speaker 2: If it's just trying to, you know, trying to capitalize
Speaker 2: on that World Cup, because if you were going to
Speaker 2: do that, you should have started four years ago.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And just to be clear, I don't think trying
Speaker 3: to capitalize on hosting a home World Cup is a
Speaker 3: bad idea at all. I think everything that's basically been
Speaker 3: now that I don't have a team to cover on
Speaker 3: a regular basis, a professional team. I still got the
Speaker 3: University of Memphis Go Tigers. But essentially, like the last
Speaker 3: four podcasts I've done for the Not on One Soccer
Speaker 3: podcast have all been how do you capitalize on a
Speaker 3: home World Cup in the United States? So USL should
Speaker 3: absolutely be doing something. I just don't think this is it,
Speaker 3: and I as a matter of fact, I think this
Speaker 3: is not it, and I just when this news broke.
Speaker 3: Last Thursday, I did an episode of the nine to
Speaker 3: one Soccer podcast which went up today. You can go
Speaker 3: check it out on Twitter at not one Soccer Pod
Speaker 3: atl dot nine three.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 3: But that I was a little kind of just firing
Speaker 3: from the hip on that one, since you know, the
Speaker 3: details were still emerging. But yes, try to capitalize on
Speaker 3: a home World Cup, just not by launching a new league.
Speaker 3: It needs to be solidifying and stabilizing what you already have,
Speaker 3: because let's be real, there's been a lot of tumult
Speaker 3: and up evil in the teams just within the USL Championship.
Speaker 3: That's I was involved in that league for six years.
Speaker 3: In that time, there were a lot of teams that
Speaker 3: that were there that are now dead, most recently San
Speaker 3: Diego Oil, Real, Grand Valley and my beloved Memphis nine
Speaker 3: on ONEFC dead. And I don't know how creating a
Speaker 3: new league solves these problems that are very real, Thomas.
Speaker 1: You just got a USL team in your state, Portland,
Speaker 1: Heart's Pine their USL League one. They're going to be
Speaker 1: starting this year. They have had a great start. That
Speaker 1: to me is the great distinguishing factor of the USL
Speaker 1: system is and it's part of this press release, part
Speaker 1: of their kind of mission. They they talk about the
Speaker 1: deep community ties and quote bringing professional soccer to more markets,
Speaker 1: including mid sized cities.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: Obviously Major League Soccer MLS is targeting major metropolis, right,
Speaker 1: that's kind of their thought process because they want to
Speaker 1: grab the biggest markets in the country. So if USL
Speaker 1: right now for the most part is grabbing and bringing
Speaker 1: soccer into those tertiary, secondary and tertiary markets, is do
Speaker 1: you do you think that that is?
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 1: I Like I'm moving from the why because I just
Speaker 1: want to ask you personally, as someone who's kind of
Speaker 1: in that realm, like, is that something that is going
Speaker 1: to make you want to support Hearts of Pine more
Speaker 1: if they could possibly be in the USL Premiership or
Speaker 1: whatever they call it two years time?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 2: I mean I think it's you know, I think it's
Speaker 2: a logistical challenge. I mean, I think there's there's there's
Speaker 2: interest in that. But I mean to the largest point,
Speaker 2: I think it's I don't know the exact number, so
Speaker 2: you know, but there's over thirty teams in the USL
Speaker 2: that since twenty eleven that that that have coming on, right,
Speaker 2: So and you know, some some last season. Some you know,
Speaker 2: the longest is what seven or eight seasons, and so
Speaker 2: they don't last all that long. So they get the
Speaker 2: quick hit and the interest, but how that they're not
Speaker 2: sustaining that fan base for whatever reason. And so to
Speaker 2: say we're going to try to do this again, you're
Speaker 2: gonna get a first couple of years, you're gonna get
Speaker 2: some hits, you know, I imagine in Portland is a
Speaker 2: huge you know, in Portland, Maine, there's huge interest in
Speaker 2: this right now. But I want to see what it
Speaker 2: looks like in four years, right I want to see
Speaker 2: what that interest if it remains, because you know, we
Speaker 2: have minor league sports teams in the area. We've got
Speaker 2: you know, hockey, baseball, basketball type teams, and you know,
Speaker 2: the draw is inconsistent.
Speaker 4: They're not crazy draws on that. So how are you
Speaker 4: going to build that fan base in that way?
Speaker 2: You're gonna from a sustainability perspective, right, because there's only
Speaker 2: so much time, so much money, and so many people
Speaker 2: that are going to come to these sorts of things
Speaker 2: on a long term basis. So I think that's where
Speaker 2: the market struggles.
Speaker 4: I mean, how you know, look at the mls.
Speaker 2: They had the most attendance last year, but that's because
Speaker 2: of Messy, right, So when you look at these things,
Speaker 2: how is it sustainable. I don't know what their market
Speaker 2: strategy is to help build that, but I think, you know, again,
Speaker 2: they would be interested in it, but for how long
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I just don't think that.
Speaker 2: I don't think that we have the population to support
Speaker 2: something of that nature.
Speaker 4: I would love to see it.
Speaker 2: I mean, there was a group in Maine that's tried,
Speaker 2: that had tried. Their vision was to have a USL
Speaker 2: you know, lower level teams within thirty minutes of each other,
Speaker 2: so you sentially you could go to a game whenever
Speaker 2: you wanted, you'd have it at these local stadiums. I
Speaker 2: love the concept of that, right, if there was a
Speaker 2: game on a night and like, hey, let's go. I
Speaker 2: mean I go to as many high school games as
Speaker 2: I can because I want to be around soccer. But
Speaker 2: that's me and logistically, if it makes sense and the
Speaker 2: time's right, I'll go to the I'll go to the games.
Speaker 2: But I don't know how that it's going to be
Speaker 2: long term for any of these markets. I mean, some
Speaker 2: are more sustainable, don't it look at Lawrence's market. I mean,
Speaker 2: I that's shocking, like I mean shocking.
Speaker 3: I mean they started out gangbusters. The first year, I
Speaker 3: think not I want to see his attendance was like
Speaker 3: sixty eight hundred people a game, and then by twenty
Speaker 3: twenty four it was down to I have the number
Speaker 3: right here in front of me, it was twenty eight
Speaker 3: to seventy four. And there's there's a lot of reasons
Speaker 3: for that, and I've kind of beaten that horse to
Speaker 3: death on my show, but that a lot of the
Speaker 3: problems that nine on NFC had are not unique to
Speaker 3: nine on ONEFC within the USL Championship, and I would
Speaker 3: imagine also not unique when you even get down to
Speaker 3: USL League one and USL League two. So it's it's
Speaker 3: again it comes back to there's a lot of instability.
Speaker 3: There's still a lot of question marks. A lot of
Speaker 3: these teams are getting by by the skin of their
Speaker 3: ass on a yearly basis, and I think the league,
Speaker 3: be it the Championship, League one, League two, would be
Speaker 3: much better served if the emphasis was on stabilizing and
Speaker 3: bettering what already exists than trying to pull something out
Speaker 3: of your ass in a year and a half.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about those professional league standards and really the
Speaker 1: meat of what has to be accomplished. Because to be USL,
Speaker 1: both championship in League one meet professional league standards because
Speaker 1: they are pros and most of them are blanket like,
Speaker 1: you have to do certain things. There are certain things
Speaker 1: that a Division one league needs to achieve. One of
Speaker 1: those is they need to have twelve teams to start
Speaker 1: and fourteen total teams by year three. This is for
Speaker 1: the men's side. Seventy five percent of the league must
Speaker 1: be in the US. I don't think this is going
Speaker 1: to be trying to reach Canada or any other country,
Speaker 1: so I don't think we need to worry about that.
Speaker 1: But also seventy five percent of the league needs to
Speaker 1: be in a metro statistical area of a million plus.
Speaker 1: Now I will say there are twelve non MLS msas
Speaker 1: of a million plus there are. Does that still mean
Speaker 1: that it's a viable community. I don't know that's to
Speaker 1: be to be done.
Speaker 3: That's that's where the USL Championship already is right in
Speaker 3: right and the biggest cities that MLS isn't.
Speaker 1: In the next thing, and this is the real crux
Speaker 1: that I think Thomas, you're getting at too. Is so
Speaker 1: stadiums must be enclosed, which, to be fair, yeah, that
Speaker 1: makes sense. You want a professional soccer stadium, it should
Speaker 1: be in closed, meaning that you just can't walk into it.
Speaker 1: With the minimum seating capacity of fifteen thousand, now, I
Speaker 1: will take some. I don't think the million plus is
Speaker 1: the biggest problem because this is the United States. We
Speaker 1: have tons of msas of a million plus. This is
Speaker 1: the one that I actually think USL and US Soccer, however,
Speaker 1: they want to come to this agreement. There is a
Speaker 1: legitimate beef with this particular requirement. And Thomas, I think
Speaker 1: this is something that you point like Portland, Maine probably
Speaker 1: going to be I would hope. I'm just pieing the sky.
Speaker 1: They're going to be well supported. But well supported it
Speaker 1: means what to you, I mean in terms of in
Speaker 1: terms of you know, average attendance, right, I.
Speaker 2: Mean average attends I mean you got I mean in
Speaker 2: the beginning, you know you're probably gonna sell out most matches.
Speaker 4: I'm guessing you know. And I think it's about a
Speaker 4: five to eight thousand. I don't know what the.
Speaker 1: Statium iss Yah, it's about five thousand.
Speaker 4: It's about five.
Speaker 1: I think they're trying to expand sorry, six thousands.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they're gonna try to expand it close
Speaker 2: to eight maybe put seats on the end uh in general.
Speaker 2: But but again I'm gonna I'm gonna expect that to
Speaker 2: be primarily sold out for the first season for sure.
Speaker 2: But I mean, you've got you've got to have at least,
Speaker 2: you know, four thousand in there, you know, consistently. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna say, like, you've gotta have sixty five percent capacity
Speaker 2: on that to make it viable, right, because they're dumping
Speaker 2: a lot of money into that, and there's a lot
Speaker 2: of interest in that. But again, that's it's a flash
Speaker 2: in the pan if you can't sustain it. And I
Speaker 2: think I don't know the reason why a lot of
Speaker 2: these folds. I don't know what the logistics are, but
Speaker 2: they just they just don't last that long.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a great point. That's a great point. They
Speaker 1: don't last long. And this is actually one of the
Speaker 1: things that you I want to move on to the
Speaker 1: next couple of points, because they are I think speaking
Speaker 1: to that why did they fold? And one of the
Speaker 1: things that you need.
Speaker 4: To have is.
Speaker 1: The league must basically have they have They have to
Speaker 1: have like a lot of money basically, and that I
Speaker 1: don't think USL will have a problem getting that once say,
Speaker 1: if they launch a Division one team, they'll be able
Speaker 1: to get spawn. I don't think that'll be an issue.
Speaker 1: But from a league perspective or a club perspective, which
Speaker 1: that is the major difference between USL and MLS. MLS
Speaker 1: is a single entity model. USL is not. USL is
Speaker 1: a club collection of clubs. Each team ownership group must
Speaker 1: demonstrate the financial capacity to operate the team for five years.
Speaker 3: That's that's that's deliberately vague and nebulous capacity. I think
Speaker 3: you're this just is just just how much this is
Speaker 3: not even soccer brand. This is just how like regular
Speaker 3: Lawrence brain works, where it's just like you can you
Speaker 3: can make that work or not work, depending on you know,
Speaker 3: who you've got lined up in front of you. Demonstrate
Speaker 3: the capacity means different things for different people. And you know,
Speaker 3: if you really want this particular ownership group and they
Speaker 3: can only demonstrate maybe four years, well you know that's
Speaker 3: that's deliberately vague and nebulous, so that there's no real
Speaker 3: way that for example, if it's somehow some way ends
Speaker 3: up in in the courtroom. This is this is what
Speaker 3: it says, will define it, you know.
Speaker 1: And those definitions aren't listed, you know. And I'm sure,
Speaker 1: I'm sure US Soccer does have their metrics. I'm sure
Speaker 1: they have some sort of banking partner that they work with,
Speaker 1: some financial group. But that is a legitimate question. Now.
Speaker 1: One that does have a little bit harder, you know,
Speaker 1: definition is that the principal owner of the group must
Speaker 1: have an individual net worth of at least forty million
Speaker 1: dollars that does not include his ownership of the league,
Speaker 1: ownership in the league, and their primary personal residence. So
Speaker 1: that is one way to kind of, you know, to
Speaker 1: Thomas your point of well, a lot of teams fail.
Speaker 1: US Soccer has tried to put in some way to
Speaker 1: make sure they're financially valuable, because Lawrence, I think the
Speaker 1: one thing that we're gonna I'm gonna bring up this.
Speaker 1: It's not the first time. I think. The one thing
Speaker 1: that prorel zealots think is that soccer teams just exist
Speaker 1: before the fun of it. And the reality is, especially
Speaker 1: at the Division one level, you have to spend a
Speaker 1: lot of money to be competitive and we'll talk about
Speaker 1: what gets down to it. But you know, there are
Speaker 1: plenty of teams all over the world that get promoted
Speaker 1: to Division IE whatever that is for their country and
Speaker 1: they ain't got the money to compete, they go right
Speaker 1: back down and then a lot of times they end
Speaker 1: up in financial ruin several years later. That to me
Speaker 1: is one of those things where it's like, you may
Speaker 1: not like these professional league standards, and a lot of
Speaker 1: people have issue with them, but in the United States,
Speaker 1: a country that struggles to provide financial support to soccer,
Speaker 1: from a personal standpoint, that is something that is important.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's it's something that you know, there's there's
Speaker 3: a lot that annoys me about MLS as somebody who's
Speaker 3: covered a USL Championship team for six years. There's there's
Speaker 3: a lot to dislike. But I think Alexi Lawless makes
Speaker 3: a compelling point when he says it's the most stable
Speaker 3: and most successful American soccer league in history. And I
Speaker 3: think the the key part there is stable. I mean
Speaker 3: we are a long long way away from the days
Speaker 3: of the Tampa Bay mutiny going by bye, and I
Speaker 3: mean even what Chivas USA in like twenty twelve was
Speaker 3: probably rarely where twelve years removed from ending the last team,
Speaker 3: and how many more have we added in that time.
Speaker 1: Some might argue you've even added another team in Los
Speaker 1: Angeles' Yes.
Speaker 3: And it has been. It has been one of the
Speaker 3: more on and off the field successful teams in the league.
Speaker 3: And you come back to the USL Championship. There's there's
Speaker 3: a lot more instability in the USL Championship than there
Speaker 3: has been an MLS, even even to this day. I
Speaker 3: have no way of verifying that. I have no access
Speaker 3: to the books or or any sort of insider information
Speaker 3: other than somebody that knows. Somebody that worked high up
Speaker 3: at nine O NFC said that they lost a million
Speaker 3: dollars a year operating the team. That's a lot of money.
Speaker 3: A million dollars a year down the drain time six
Speaker 3: that's to lose six million dollars on a team. And
Speaker 3: I don't know, you know, like I like the idea
Speaker 3: of promotion and relegation. I like the idea of success
Speaker 3: being rewarded in failure being punished.
Speaker 1: I like that.
Speaker 3: I don't like the other, the other American model, where
Speaker 3: if you sink you get all of the best of everything,
Speaker 3: and if you are good, well you don't get to
Speaker 3: be good anymore. Uh, That's that's insane to me. But
Speaker 3: you know, there are you know, there's the promotion and
Speaker 3: relegation is not like everything is fixed everything. It's not
Speaker 3: a magic bullet that is a cure all for everything. Like,
Speaker 3: there's still a lot of issues that need to be
Speaker 3: worked out, and the financial stability and viability of a
Speaker 3: lot of these teams needs to be worked out before
Speaker 3: that's something that we go just diving off into the
Speaker 3: deep end on.
Speaker 1: Thomas. It's obviously financial is one thing, right, you need
Speaker 1: to have the money to put into it, but you've
Speaker 1: got to also Again, this is where unfortunately soccer in
Speaker 1: this country does have to be a business to some
Speaker 1: degree because we're not a country of We're not a
Speaker 1: soccer country in the sense that if you just put
Speaker 1: a club somewhere, people are going to go watch it
Speaker 1: because what else are they going to do. You know,
Speaker 1: you look at countries around the world that where soccer
Speaker 1: is the main sport, and the reason they have the
Speaker 1: promotion relegation pyramid is quite frankly, they have what they
Speaker 1: had at one point too many teams that had a
Speaker 1: legit shout to be in a top flight division. We're
Speaker 1: not very yet, and to be able to support the
Speaker 1: team locally is still not something that just organically happens.
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, I think you're you know, you're starting
Speaker 2: to have issues, not issues, but talks about players, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean. I know from the main thing,
Speaker 2: they're having tryouts, right, do they have to build a
Speaker 2: roster and right, so that's how they're building the roster.
Speaker 4: So do they have enough.
Speaker 2: Quality players are gonna be able to put an interesting
Speaker 2: product on the field. Outside of that, because of the
Speaker 2: thirty eight teams, I believe that in the USL that
Speaker 2: left the USL and moved to may have folded, may
Speaker 2: have gone to USL one whatever, you know, Like they
Speaker 2: average like four and a half years in the league, right,
Speaker 2: so that's right on that five year line right of that.
Speaker 2: So when you're averaging that period of time in that league,
Speaker 2: you're right on the edge of it, right of what
Speaker 2: their expectation is on that. And I think you really
Speaker 2: have to the quality of the game. You don't want
Speaker 2: to diminish that. And they're pulling a lot of players
Speaker 2: from from from all over and I just I wonder
Speaker 2: what the quality is going to be with that because
Speaker 2: are are they going to have teams in locations that
Speaker 2: are already existing? Are they going to have teams and
Speaker 2: you know, try to have something new because again going
Speaker 2: back to the stadium piece, I just don't you know
Speaker 2: that fifteen hundred. I mean, I'd love to see it
Speaker 2: because I think they could be have some really great
Speaker 2: soccer atmosphere, but I just it's just the runway is
Speaker 2: too short.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that is the crux of my concerns.
Speaker 1: But one of the things that concerns me. And when
Speaker 1: you look at even MLS teams in large metro areas Chicago,
Speaker 1: the second largest city in this country, the Fire have
Speaker 1: struggled historically even when they've been good to really push
Speaker 1: the envelope in terms of attendance. Right, we are seeing
Speaker 1: finally that you know, to be fair to New York
Speaker 1: City FC and their baseball stadium, they average.
Speaker 3: More than twenty thousand. They get, they get they get
Speaker 3: two Baseball.
Speaker 1: Plus Yukon Stadium plus Red Bull Stadium.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was one day when they played a CONCERCAFF
Speaker 3: Champions League game at LAFC Stadium.
Speaker 1: Yep, yeah they did. But they regularly average twenty thousand
Speaker 1: more fans. But there is one thing you notice when
Speaker 1: you look at especially MLS statistic figures, and I'll bring
Speaker 1: up us L Championship in a little bit, there is
Speaker 1: a line of dcation at like eighteen thousand. You either
Speaker 1: have eighteen and up or you have like twelve thousand.
Speaker 1: And you know that's great. I mean not everyone's at
Speaker 1: Landing United Charlotte Seattle with an NFL stadium that they
Speaker 1: can fill, you know, a couple times a year to
Speaker 1: the max and get sixty five thousand people and they're
Speaker 1: paying twenty five to four hundred dollars a ticket whatever
Speaker 1: you're getting to make that money. You know, when you're
Speaker 1: talking about RSL, a very well supported club, their stadium
Speaker 1: doesn't go above twenty two thousand, you know. So from that,
Speaker 1: I mean, Lawrence, you and I are big college football fans.
Speaker 1: And the secret to being a profitable athletic program was
Speaker 1: you you had a football stadium of eighty thousand plus
Speaker 1: and you saw that out six times a year, and
Speaker 1: that bankrolled you're athletic. So that's again, this is the
Speaker 1: financial issue of this thing is understating that a lot
Speaker 1: of MLS clubs are able to spend money because they
Speaker 1: have money coming in because they're you know, hitting those
Speaker 1: those attendance averages. It's very clear the teams that do
Speaker 1: not hit those attendance averages are not spending money at all.
Speaker 1: And that's my concern is, once you do get it started,
Speaker 1: how does this become a league? Tom us to your
Speaker 1: point of that the players want to play in and
Speaker 1: then can you actually afford players that are worth watching?
Speaker 1: Because Lawrence, right now, when you look at what USL
Speaker 1: does have, well, they've got a broadcast in streaming deal
Speaker 1: that's part of the PLS for Division one. They've got that,
Speaker 1: and a pretty arguably a better one from access standpoints.
Speaker 3: Worth noting the the USL Final on CBS drew more
Speaker 3: viewers than MLS Cup Final drew on Fox slashed Apple TV.
Speaker 1: Correct supposedly, we don't know what Apple TV actually said.
Speaker 3: If the numbers were good, they would find a way
Speaker 3: to let us know. Nobody keeps good news quiet.
Speaker 1: I do agree with that. I think it's fair to
Speaker 1: say that from a league standpoint, USL has financial viability
Speaker 1: overall as a league. They have existed in USL since
Speaker 1: twenty eleven and have established this Pyramid for the past
Speaker 1: five years. Those things I think are fair to say.
Speaker 1: They also meet most most clubs, and again you would
Speaker 1: get I think it is also fair to say, once
Speaker 1: you do become Division one, you'll find people who want
Speaker 1: to buy in. But these clubs already have their league
Speaker 1: and team operation standards that they you know, they'll have
Speaker 1: to beef it up a little bit just because when
Speaker 1: you become a Division one club you have more of that.
Speaker 1: But we're not worried about like, oh, well, you're athletic
Speaker 1: trainers part time type of stuff. That's not really the
Speaker 1: issue that we're dealing with here. So there are things
Speaker 1: that USL is like, we can do this, But to me,
Speaker 1: the big ones still they got they got a lot
Speaker 1: of work to do in you know, two years time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's it's all gonna come down to, like
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, for any league anywhere,
Speaker 3: it's it's about the attendance, right, and especially in a
Speaker 3: league like the USL, where yes, they have a TV deal,
Speaker 3: but it is not you know, uh, the SEC on
Speaker 3: ESPN ABC paying every school in the conference seven hundred
Speaker 3: berzillion dollars a year.
Speaker 1: It's not even to be fair MLS and Apple TV,
Speaker 1: which is very lucrative.
Speaker 3: You know, exactly exact.
Speaker 1: Brag about it as much as we want. It's bringing
Speaker 1: MLS a lot of.
Speaker 3: Money, exactly well, which is why they took the upfront
Speaker 3: money and killed access to the league. But who cares
Speaker 3: when you got those checks?
Speaker 4: Relevant?
Speaker 3: But the thing with the USL and is the championship.
Speaker 3: And I've got the last three years of attendance for
Speaker 3: each team right here in front of me, right And
Speaker 3: I don't think it's a coincidence that the most successful
Speaker 3: or some variety of the most successful teams on the
Speaker 3: field are able to spend the most money. And I
Speaker 3: don't think it's a coincidence that the teams that are
Speaker 3: able to spend the most money all have the best attendance.
Speaker 3: Like each of the last three years twenty twenty two,
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, and twenty twenty four, the top five
Speaker 3: and attendance in the USL Championship every year is some
Speaker 3: in some order, it's the same five teams. It's New
Speaker 3: Mexico United, It's Louisville City, Sacramento Republic, Indie eleven and
Speaker 3: Colorado Springs switchbacks three straight years those five and in
Speaker 3: some order, right, so like and and I don't think
Speaker 3: it's a coincidence that Louisville's got their own stadium. Uh, Sacramento,
Speaker 3: I don't know what the what the dealer is. I
Speaker 3: think they own their stadium, but they're trying to get
Speaker 3: a different stadium built. I seem to remember there was
Speaker 3: going to be like a rail Yards stadium something or
Speaker 3: other opened up at one point, but I don't know
Speaker 3: if that ever happened.
Speaker 1: I know which Tibian, Sacramento Republic Sacramento had. Yes, so
Speaker 1: Sacramento has some sort of stadium agreement with the city.
Speaker 1: The city is very supportive of it. Now, okay, I
Speaker 1: will say this. Their original plans are twelve thousand seed Stadium,
Speaker 1: which makes a total lot of sense for us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, because I think they're the the heart Papa
Speaker 3: Murphy's Park or whatever it is that they play at
Speaker 3: seats like eleven five, six nine. Yes, so twelve thousand
Speaker 3: boom right there.
Speaker 1: So one I would say, anyway, always bet on yourself
Speaker 1: and make that I would make that fifteen thousand anyway.
Speaker 1: That's the question here to me is how do you
Speaker 1: do that?
Speaker 3: So anyway, Yeah, but you know, Colorado Springs. They have
Speaker 3: their own stadium. New Mexico United is about to get
Speaker 3: their own stadium. I think several months ago the Albuquerque
Speaker 3: City Council said, do it.
Speaker 1: Indy and the Albuquerque that's would they need that? They
Speaker 1: truly they need they need that type of investment from
Speaker 1: the city anyway.
Speaker 3: Yes, and the wild card in there is Indy and
Speaker 3: this isn't. This is another thing that I that I
Speaker 3: I want to want to touch on is one of
Speaker 3: my concerns with USL doing a D one league is
Speaker 3: do they think that MLS is just going to sit
Speaker 3: there and go, yeah, that's cool. No, they're not us.
Speaker 3: The MLS, like I said, one of the things, there's
Speaker 3: a lot of things that annoy me. It's very clear
Speaker 3: that MLS does not like the USL. They don't like
Speaker 3: them now, whether like whether whether they are afraid that
Speaker 3: it could grow into something to legitimately challenged them, or
Speaker 3: they just, like Don Garber said years ago, any American
Speaker 3: soccer dollar that doesn't get spent on MLS as a
Speaker 3: dollar wasted. You know, we saw a microcosm is Indy.
Speaker 3: Indy eleven has been one of the better supported teams
Speaker 3: in the USL. Championship for a very long time, and
Speaker 3: since they moved back into the the Ooey Pooey Stadium,
Speaker 3: it's like there they mean they get Let's see three years,
Speaker 3: they're averaging nine thousand and eight people a game over
Speaker 3: the course of fifty four games. That's not insignificant in
Speaker 3: the league. But they were getting ready to build their
Speaker 3: own stadium and then the rug got pulled out from
Speaker 3: under them because MLS said, you've done all the hard work,
Speaker 3: You've got a real soccer fan base here. We're just
Speaker 3: going to show up and say hey, we're MLS. Boom,
Speaker 3: come love us. Bye bye Indy eleven. Now I think
Speaker 3: the dust kind of settled and there hadn't been any
Speaker 3: any discussion.
Speaker 1: MLS does not seem to be actually interested in Indy.
Speaker 1: That again, I agree with you. Seems to be they
Speaker 1: shod their hand a little bit.
Speaker 3: The the wild thing about that is how much the
Speaker 3: indie media went after and wanted a bullet put into
Speaker 3: Indy eleven. It was wild to see, like we had
Speaker 3: our problems here in Memphis with not on ONEFC, but
Speaker 3: it was more of like a neglect rather than outright hate.
Speaker 3: And my god, the indie star whoever that jackass columnist
Speaker 3: was was a jackass columnist. I mean like it was,
Speaker 3: it was, it was wild.
Speaker 1: But again, I mean it's like I will say, going
Speaker 1: after what they called a minor league club, when y'all
Speaker 1: support a minor league baseball team building at a stadium
Speaker 1: recently in the recent years, wow to me.
Speaker 3: So again, one of my concerns is MLS has operated
Speaker 3: for the last several years predatorily. Well then trying to
Speaker 3: put I mean that's the reason is saying that's the
Speaker 3: chief reason the San Diego loyal does not exist anymore.
Speaker 3: It's because MLS wanted to put a team in San
Speaker 3: Diego and they went bye bye. Same same deal with
Speaker 3: with a number of places.
Speaker 1: I mean, look at Cincinnati and Nashville very specifically almost
Speaker 1: you know, being chopped up, you know by Emila saying
Speaker 1: hey we like that.
Speaker 3: Come on Orlando City back in the day, talk about
Speaker 3: that and uh but you also look at the Open Cup.
Speaker 3: The biggest gate for most us L championship teams is
Speaker 3: when they get to host an MLS team in the
Speaker 3: Open Cup. M LS bailing on the Open Cup was
Speaker 3: not about uh what what what? What was the bullshit excuse.
Speaker 1: They used I mean, they they talk about quality of competition.
Speaker 3: Fixture congestion that we created.
Speaker 1: It's they're not making money.
Speaker 3: On it, no it I My belief is that they
Speaker 3: were trying to put the us L out of business.
Speaker 3: It it's your biggest it's your biggest gate, and we
Speaker 3: don't like that. So we're going by bye and y'all.
Speaker 3: Y'all aren't getting that money. H deuces. So again we
Speaker 3: come back to this D one league regardless, and this
Speaker 3: is a different discussion, but do we really think that
Speaker 3: the average American that doesn't know a whole lot about
Speaker 3: soccer is going to see USL D one? Huh? Major
Speaker 3: League Soccer light bulb. That's what I like. But MLS
Speaker 3: is not going to sit here and just let this happen.
Speaker 3: I seem to somebody pointed out it might have been
Speaker 3: a Kartek Krishneier from Beyond the ninety made a point
Speaker 3: that the last time the USL really tried to do
Speaker 3: something to challenge MLS, MLS like quadrupled league minimum and
Speaker 3: was just like, yeah, sorry, guys, you don't have a shot.
Speaker 3: And so I don't know, maybe I'm merging a whole
Speaker 3: bunch of points here, but Another concern I have is
Speaker 3: where these teams for this new league gonna come from.
Speaker 1: I mean, we want to get into that in a
Speaker 1: little bit because I think a lot of questions, So
Speaker 1: do put a pin in that, because that is a
Speaker 1: direct question we need to ask. But I do want
Speaker 1: to allow a little bit of a counterpoint. And Thomas,
Speaker 1: you and I have talked about this on the podcast
Speaker 1: a little bit, but there are a lot of Americans
Speaker 1: who are very wealthy who own clubs in Europe. And
Speaker 1: the reason they do that is because it costs five
Speaker 1: hundred million dollars to buy into MLS. Now, USL has
Speaker 1: some sort of a league fee for that, it's much smaller,
Speaker 1: much smaller. So when you look at a guy like
Speaker 1: John Texter who owns multiple clubs in multiple leagues in Europe, Thomas, well,
Speaker 1: he's he's got a ton of money. Do you think
Speaker 1: that as a potential source of ownership investment now or
Speaker 1: do you think that they don't? Really, they're not going
Speaker 1: to get it because the value of a European club
Speaker 1: is way more than starting a USL club from scratch, you.
Speaker 2: Know, I mean, it's yeah, I think it's pretty clear
Speaker 2: that they want the value they want, you know, they
Speaker 2: want to make money, and this is the problem, right,
Speaker 2: this is the problem. How are they going to make money?
Speaker 2: And I think being there already have some uniqueness over MLS.
Speaker 2: Continue with that if you again promotion relegation, I don't
Speaker 2: know how it would work with USL, but they're more
Speaker 2: aligned with how that would work better than the MLS.
Speaker 2: Is right, because MLS is not going to buy into that.
Speaker 2: So why don't you look to use that strength to
Speaker 2: your advantage and draw in fans that way and do
Speaker 2: a slower build to it, right, Because if you do
Speaker 2: a slower build to that, you add that in there,
Speaker 2: you're going to look at other cities and say, hey,
Speaker 2: you know what, we're gonna try to meet the minimum
Speaker 2: right we want to be you know, doing this right.
Speaker 2: And and then you're gonna build that excitement, You're gonna
Speaker 2: build that interest because to me, like, that's what a
Speaker 2: lot of people want.
Speaker 4: And MLS will never do it.
Speaker 2: They won't do it in the way it needs that
Speaker 2: that that you know your Europe doesn't. They just won't
Speaker 2: because there's they're not gonna owners are not gonna be uh.
Speaker 4: Relegated.
Speaker 2: Spending five hundred million dollars for a franchise and saying, hey,
Speaker 2: you know what, you know, we had our chance and
Speaker 2: you you know, and in the in the league would
Speaker 2: hurt too if you have some of these you know
Speaker 2: had in LA or New York or whatever fall out
Speaker 2: and be and be relegated. So I think you have.
Speaker 2: I think it's gonna be a slower burn for them.
Speaker 2: I know they're probably impatient with that, but you know,
Speaker 2: the NA s L, just we sawry it did not work.
Speaker 3: And also speaking of the n A s L, I
Speaker 3: also don't think it's a coincidence that this USLD one.
Speaker 1: League they said it was a.
Speaker 3: Drop three days after, three days after also totally not
Speaker 3: at all related to anything that we're discussing. But how
Speaker 3: wild was rock O Comiso's testimony. Holy mackerel, some of
Speaker 3: the stuff that dude was testifying to.
Speaker 1: Look, I think the judge looked at him and said, yeah,
Speaker 1: I see why you weren't allowed to do this.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh man, let's let's just wrap up the the talk
Speaker 1: about the the professional league standards for D one real quick.
Speaker 4: And just.
Speaker 1: I want to say this and Lawrence and Thomas, I
Speaker 1: want your thoughts. I think that there is a way
Speaker 1: for USL to challenge, maybe it be not legally but
Speaker 1: maybe not in the court system, but challenge them and
Speaker 1: get some level of change that are not waivers, actual
Speaker 1: concessions from US Soccer to drop some of those not
Speaker 1: financial because I don't think they're budging onto the financial
Speaker 1: because that actually, to me is a key component of
Speaker 1: being quote divisional one. Now, whether or not they can
Speaker 1: keep that when they go to pro rail, I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's a whole nother ball of axe that I don't
Speaker 1: have time to get into, but I do think that
Speaker 1: you can look at it and go, hey, look one
Speaker 1: the metro statistical area of a million plus. I don't
Speaker 1: think that's an issue, but they might say, hey, maybe
Speaker 1: it's sixty percent, maybe it's seven whatever. They might be
Speaker 1: able to come down a little bit on that. I
Speaker 1: do think there is a legitimate case to be made
Speaker 1: to US Soccer by USL to say the stadium capacity
Speaker 1: thing is too high and we would like it to
Speaker 1: be minimum, to drop to twelve thousand, maybe even ten thousand.
Speaker 1: And I do think ten thousand is a legitimate request
Speaker 1: because when you look at some of the leagues that
Speaker 1: MLS is ranked around and I say ranked loosely because
Speaker 1: how do you rank leagues? But Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark are
Speaker 1: some of the leagues that kind of go around them.
Speaker 1: They have about five to seven in each of those
Speaker 1: leagues stadiums that are not fifteen thousand. In fact, basically
Speaker 1: all of the Denmark the Danish league is under fifteen
Speaker 1: thousand seat stadiums. Now, obviously there are population reasons for that,
Speaker 1: but you know, when you look at the Dutch league,
Speaker 1: when you look at the Belgian league, there are a
Speaker 1: lot of stadiums that do not meet the fifteen thousand
Speaker 1: seat requirement. And I think it's fair to say to
Speaker 1: US Soccer, this is too high. Can you make that
Speaker 1: either you drop it down to you know, twelve thousand
Speaker 1: or ten thousand, or maybe you ask can we move
Speaker 1: this to you? I don't know. Fifty percent of the
Speaker 1: league has to play in a fifteen thousand seeds stadium.
Speaker 1: Do you see that possibly happening?
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean that it makes sense to me,
Speaker 3: and that's what I would do because if you look
Speaker 3: at the teams currently in the USL Championship that have
Speaker 3: stadiums of that capacity, doesn't none of them have a
Speaker 3: snowballs chance in hell at getting any kind of support
Speaker 3: to justify status as a D one like Birmingham League.
Speaker 1: There right now are three It's Birmingham, Yeah.
Speaker 3: And they and I've been there. Look so little time
Speaker 3: out for a story. I covered a I don't want
Speaker 3: to see game in Birmingham last year at Protective Stadium.
Speaker 3: Protective Stadium is the home of Birmingham Legion, but it's
Speaker 3: it's uab's college football stadium. It's brand new, it's like
Speaker 3: three years old, very nice facility. The people that work
Speaker 3: there and that run that show do not know their
Speaker 3: elbow from their asshole. Trying to get a press cast
Speaker 3: an Act of Congress, trying to get to the press
Speaker 3: box was like, where in the world is Carmen San Diego.
Speaker 3: Get to the press box. There's no Wi Fi, there's
Speaker 3: no game notes, there's no no food or beverage. There's
Speaker 3: They put me in a room like nobody knew where
Speaker 3: visiting media was supposed to go. They wanted to put
Speaker 3: me in the video board control room. And I was like,
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's a good idea. I might
Speaker 3: I might disagree with a decision down there and hit
Speaker 3: you know, hit a bunch of buttons, but absolute, absolute
Speaker 3: clown show at the Birmingham Legion. But you also look
Speaker 3: at the fact that they don't announce attendance for most
Speaker 3: of their games, and we come back to if the
Speaker 3: numbers were good, they would find a way to let
Speaker 3: us know. But then also what Miami FC is another
Speaker 3: one that technically plays in a stadium that is large
Speaker 3: enough pit Bull Stadium.
Speaker 1: I will say for Miami two things. One they have
Speaker 1: put talked about possibly having a stadium.
Speaker 3: Well, the problem. The problem for MIAMIFC is they've been
Speaker 3: dead last or second to last in attendance each of
Speaker 3: the last three years. Their forty nine game averages one,
Speaker 3: six and fifty nine people. They also have to play
Speaker 3: a number of games at FIU Soccer Stadium and they
Speaker 3: get like eight hundred people of a game for those,
Speaker 3: So that's I think probably not happening. And then the
Speaker 3: third one, if I had to guess, just because it's new,
Speaker 3: they're moved. The Oakland Roots are moving into the Oakland Coliseum,
Speaker 3: They're moving out of whatever.
Speaker 1: There's a reason no one plays in an Oakland Coliseum anymore.
Speaker 3: It's because Al Davis ruined it. It is well, it
Speaker 3: was a great baseball stadium, and then he and then
Speaker 3: I shan't speak ill of the dead.
Speaker 1: The point is they have a couple of teams that
Speaker 1: could do it. The problem is, and I just don't
Speaker 1: see how they Basically the standards require a one year
Speaker 1: lease at the start of the season proven so I
Speaker 1: don't think Birmingham would have a problem necessarily with staying
Speaker 1: it protective. It's fine, UAB doesn't use that stadium, but
Speaker 1: for what six Saturdays a year, plus the Birmingham Bull
Speaker 1: which is not in soccer season, and then you.
Speaker 3: Have the UFL team, this Birmingham Stein.
Speaker 1: UFL team, But again those are not as many. You know,
Speaker 1: that's when that's another six to eight Saturdays.
Speaker 3: I think it's five.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Okay, you can work around it. You can
Speaker 1: find a way to play on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, whatever
Speaker 1: you want to do. There are ways around that. Oakland,
Speaker 1: they could stay at the Coliseum because lord knows no
Speaker 1: one else there, but that's not a viable option at all.
Speaker 1: I will say for Miami this is I think they
Speaker 1: could if they locked in with Pitbull Stadium and said
Speaker 1: we want to do this.
Speaker 3: The artists, not pit pull the dog.
Speaker 1: Pit pitbull, mister three h five, mister h I think
Speaker 1: that could be a legitimate thing. But who's moving to
Speaker 1: actual Miami very soon? In Miami, in er Miami. I
Speaker 1: actually think they's just wat places that would make sense.
Speaker 1: You have Fort Lauderdali United on the Women's Super League
Speaker 1: excited playing up there. So anyway, so we okay, let's
Speaker 1: we've talked about that for a second. Let's talk tackle
Speaker 1: the two questions. So let's this is where we're putting
Speaker 1: our thinking caps on which current clubs are prepared to
Speaker 1: make the drump And I think, Lawrence, you've identified at
Speaker 1: least two that I will say for sure, Louisville, Sacramento.
Speaker 1: The next one is probably New Mexico. If they get
Speaker 1: their stadium ready to go in time. Does that happen
Speaker 1: by twenty twenty seven? I don't think, you know, building
Speaker 1: a stadium doesn't exactly happen overnight or within a year.
Speaker 1: Luckily they had the support. Could they possibly play it?
Speaker 4: Maybe?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 3: I think it's called dream style still well, yeah, I
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 1: If it's New Mexico and New Mexico State that plays
Speaker 1: in Albuquerque, I forget, but it could be amazing. Maybe
Speaker 1: play there for a year a year possibly. That's another
Speaker 1: one we talked about. The stadium ready ones Birmingham. I
Speaker 1: think Birmingham could pull it off, and I think they
Speaker 1: could find investment to make it worthwhile they don't have
Speaker 1: any other real shows in that town to go visit.
Speaker 1: That could happen if they actually had financial backing. I
Speaker 1: don't know if Miami and Oakland are ready for prime
Speaker 1: time in that regard.
Speaker 3: If I had this, if I had to guess, I
Speaker 3: would lean more Oakland in that regard.
Speaker 1: Just want to Oakland's ownership group as we're.
Speaker 3: The The only bad thing I have to say about
Speaker 3: Oakland is when nine on ONEFC in early twenty twenty
Speaker 3: three was going to fly out there to play like
Speaker 3: the second or third game of the season. They flew
Speaker 3: all the way out there and showed up at the
Speaker 3: stadium and they were like, oh, guys, we forgot to
Speaker 3: tell you we just put new turf in yesterday, so
Speaker 3: we can't play the game. And I was like, how
Speaker 3: did you forget this thing?
Speaker 1: The thing that Oakland has going for it is where
Speaker 1: it's physically located, or you know, is you're right next
Speaker 1: to Silicon Valley. Can you just get one of those
Speaker 1: tech bros who like soccer to dump in one hundred
Speaker 1: million dollars, you know, that's really all they need. Miami's
Speaker 1: kind of the same way. Can you get someone from
Speaker 1: who's rich who lives to Miami to buy into it.
Speaker 1: Birmingham might need a little bit more, but those money
Speaker 1: in Alabama, we've seen how the football team. Right there
Speaker 1: are three others that I think are no brainers of
Speaker 1: They could very easily get ready because of stadiums that
Speaker 1: could get built quickly. San Antonio they have a stadium.
Speaker 1: Colorado Springs have a stadium, expand that they are already
Speaker 1: halfway there. Again, this is where I would if I'm
Speaker 1: US Soccer or usl I'm going to US Soccer saying, hey,
Speaker 1: can you drop that down to ten thousand, because then
Speaker 1: you're only looking at for San Antonio adding three thousand,
Speaker 1: for Colorado Springs adding two thousand, you're not killing the footprint,
Speaker 1: and you're on the city's not going to get super
Speaker 1: pissed about it because you're not really expanding where you're at.
Speaker 1: You're not adding a whole lot of parking burden, you know,
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. The other one is Phoenix,
Speaker 1: and it would just mean you tear down what you
Speaker 1: have there and make a real stadium.
Speaker 3: Didn't I just build a new stadium like two years ago.
Speaker 1: It's still a temporary stadium Technico.
Speaker 3: Oh okay. I don't know why one wild card and
Speaker 3: I I don't know that you'd be able to do
Speaker 3: any sort of renovation or expansion, but it is and
Speaker 3: it's got It's a great stadium with an iconic backdrop.
Speaker 3: And that's Pittsburgh, the.
Speaker 5: Nice literally like market market wise, it would work. I
Speaker 5: know we when we did our show on back in October,
Speaker 5: the three of us when talking about where US soccer
Speaker 5: and start playing some games. I'm pretty sure we were
Speaker 5: all in agreement that Pittsburgh would would be a good place.
Speaker 5: But you know, surprisingly, for as long as they've been
Speaker 5: around and as good as they they're really a regular
Speaker 5: season team, they're not really.
Speaker 3: A postseason team. But as good as they are in
Speaker 3: the regular season, they don't get a ton of support.
Speaker 3: They only get three for the last.
Speaker 1: Three years, only hold four thousand.
Speaker 3: No, I think it holds five. And I know when
Speaker 3: they hosted the Crew in the Open Cup and got
Speaker 3: like sixty two hundred people there like five thousand.
Speaker 1: You're right, it holds five thousand, but that's that is
Speaker 1: way too low for D one.
Speaker 3: Oh no, I agree, I agree, and I don't know
Speaker 3: what you would be able to do, and I'd hate
Speaker 3: to make them move. But also one of my concerns is,
Speaker 3: you know I touched on it earlier, is where are
Speaker 3: these teams in this new Division one league going to
Speaker 3: be coming from. You're either going to have to pull
Speaker 3: them out of thin air or which I think is
Speaker 3: a recipe for disaster, or you're going to have to
Speaker 3: pull them out of the promote them, for lack of
Speaker 3: a better term, out of the USL Championship. But at
Speaker 3: that point, you've completely kneecapped and newtered anything good that
Speaker 3: you had in USL Championship. And so I mean, I like,
Speaker 3: I think I would love to see a D one
Speaker 3: team in Pittsburgh, but I think the USL Championship still
Speaker 3: need somebody that cares and tries, and Pittsburgh fixed that
Speaker 3: bill and what brings us back to I think this
Speaker 3: whole D one league from the USL is stupid and
Speaker 3: I think it's gonna fail anyway.
Speaker 1: The other one that I think absolutely could make it happen.
Speaker 1: Stadium wise, I don't know, but Tampa Bay because that's
Speaker 1: where the league headquarters are. Honestly, I would just find
Speaker 1: a way to play in Raymond James for a little
Speaker 1: bit while you get your stadium built. You could build.
Speaker 1: I think you would have to build a stadium on
Speaker 1: that spot. I don't know if al Lang has any protections.
Speaker 1: I have heard from several people in the Tampa Bay
Speaker 1: area that al Lang is already like you couldn't expand
Speaker 1: it because of the structure itself is not great. It's
Speaker 1: an old baseball stadium. It's you know, but that plot
Speaker 1: of land could maybe become better situated for a stadium
Speaker 1: if you get creative. Thomas, do you think there are
Speaker 1: any other USL teams that possibly do you think could
Speaker 1: make the jump or is it to Lawrence's point, at
Speaker 1: some point you got to expand out instead of cutting
Speaker 1: off what you have.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you got to expand out.
Speaker 2: I mean if you look at like the League one,
Speaker 2: like Greenville Triumph, Charlotte Independence, they have their capacities, what
Speaker 2: sixteen thousand for Greenville and over ten thousand for Charlotte,
Speaker 2: Like like they're kind of on that line in terms
Speaker 2: of stadium size, maybe does I think there's the Omaha team.
Speaker 2: I think that they're on nine thousand, I think for
Speaker 2: their stadium. So like again the.
Speaker 1: Baseball stadium, and I think we're trying to build a
Speaker 1: soccer stadium, but I'm not sure that's going anywhere.
Speaker 2: So I think when you look at like what that is,
Speaker 2: you know it's you know, yeah, I mean you just
Speaker 2: you're grasping a lot here, right.
Speaker 4: Like, like the minimum is twelve?
Speaker 2: Do you want just twelve? Like, I mean it's kind
Speaker 2: of needs to be an even number, ideally.
Speaker 1: Fourteen after the third year. So again, where are you
Speaker 1: getting that team?
Speaker 4: Right? And I think that's the thing.
Speaker 2: I mean, they may have it all mapped out right
Speaker 2: and have the plan in place.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: If they did, they would have said what it was
Speaker 3: when they announced it.
Speaker 2: Right, Because when you look at like, you know, you
Speaker 2: know the teams in the A A N A s L.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you know the team Atlanta, team
Speaker 2: in Carolina, they they had a couple of teams in Canada,
Speaker 2: San Antonio, Tampa Bay. You know they had some of
Speaker 2: these you know, areas covered for teams in general, and again,
Speaker 2: you know the I think Indie, you know, Indi India
Speaker 2: was you know, Indi eleven was part of that. Obviously
Speaker 2: they had one of the bigger stadiums, you know, at
Speaker 2: the time. So you just I mean, there's just the
Speaker 2: pockets aren't there. They're just not I think, I mean
Speaker 2: we're already I think there are MLS is already at
Speaker 2: sassuration point for what they have for teams. I just
Speaker 2: don't know where you can pull in more at that
Speaker 2: Tier one level.
Speaker 4: It just, you know, it just doesn't make sense. I
Speaker 4: just can't.
Speaker 2: I just can't see how they're gonna be able to
Speaker 2: do that and sustain it.
Speaker 1: I do think there's a there are like three markets
Speaker 1: that I think have to be Division one if you're
Speaker 1: a USL, because you already own exclusively that market, Vegas
Speaker 1: at Detroit and Indianapolis. If you can get those to
Speaker 1: D one, you're not losing too. You can backfill that
Speaker 1: a little bit with USL because you do have some
Speaker 1: USL teams coming in, championship teams coming in. But Vegas
Speaker 1: to me is like I know, MLS is one of
Speaker 1: that for a while. If you can get Vegas in,
Speaker 1: which by the way, Cashman could easily be renovated if
Speaker 1: they just wanted some go to some random casino and say, hey,
Speaker 1: sponsor this shit. And now you've got the Mirage Stadium
Speaker 1: at cashman Field.
Speaker 3: Well the Mirage is gone.
Speaker 1: Oh that's right, sorryo stadium.
Speaker 3: My mom my mom opened the Mirage back in ninety one.
Speaker 1: Uh you know the wind they got the damn sphere.
Speaker 1: Oh you know, find a casino that can go to there.
Speaker 1: You know, Treasure Island Stadium at cashman Field. I don't
Speaker 1: know they got money at the gang there. So Vegas
Speaker 1: to me is a market you have to pull up
Speaker 1: to Division one because it is a Division one city
Speaker 1: at this point in time. Detroit is another one. I
Speaker 1: think from a city standpoint, it's I hate large MSA.
Speaker 1: It's the fourteenth largest MSA. So here's here's an intre.
Speaker 1: Here's an interesting set of the top twenty metro statistical
Speaker 1: areas in the US.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: USL actually exclusively has four of them already. You're looking
Speaker 1: at Phoenix, which I think we all agree has to
Speaker 1: be the You can't let mls go into Phoenix, San Francisco,
Speaker 1: Oakland because technically where San Jose plays is a whole
Speaker 1: separate MSA. But that's another question.
Speaker 3: For US It's all Bay.
Speaker 1: Area, Yeah, Tampa and what was the other one?
Speaker 3: Detroit?
Speaker 1: Oh and Detroit is fourteen. So yeah, there's I think
Speaker 1: you got to pull those up from a just a
Speaker 1: you got to have a large city base to justify it.
Speaker 1: Let's talk expansion though. So Thomas, this is a question.
Speaker 1: You kind of said, we got to go outward. Here's
Speaker 1: my question to you. Do you think that USL Division
Speaker 1: one would be smart to go into a market like
Speaker 1: New York, Chicago, LA.
Speaker 4: I mean, they're almost going to have to do that, right.
Speaker 4: I mean, there's no price right venue.
Speaker 1: You know, you can maybe a venue if they want it.
Speaker 1: I'm just location, But I mean I think that's part
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 4: They're gonna have to pull.
Speaker 2: They're gonna have to They're gonna have to be smart
Speaker 2: about it in some respects. But they're gonna have to
Speaker 2: take risks on the on the other side, because they're
Speaker 2: clearly invested in doing this, and so you're gonna have
Speaker 2: to they have they've got to have some of those
Speaker 2: bigger markets in mind, and I just don't know.
Speaker 4: How you compete with it.
Speaker 2: I mean, you got New York's got two teams Ali's
Speaker 2: got two teams Chicago. I mean, you know, again there's
Speaker 2: there's volume there, but I I just don't know how
Speaker 2: you ramp up the interest of the Lawrence's point, like
Speaker 2: when you look at it, you're like, well, Major League Soccer.
Speaker 4: And then YOURSL Championship, Like there's just.
Speaker 2: Again they just I think they're biting up more they
Speaker 2: can chew with that, and I think you have to
Speaker 2: find the pockets of those markets and and fill in there.
Speaker 2: If if you look at the United States and I'm
Speaker 2: also the map for the MLS, I mean, they've got
Speaker 2: the markets covered and maybe San Antonio is one you
Speaker 2: could bridge, you know, I mean, do you go to
Speaker 2: Canada maybe, I mean maybe that there's an opportunity for.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're getting that with the CPL
Speaker 1: now if that's well legitimate league, but right.
Speaker 2: I mean that's I I don't know, like they're gonna
Speaker 2: have to get a little creative with with you know,
Speaker 2: some of those those other markets and and kind of
Speaker 2: on the fringe of that because I.
Speaker 3: Here's here's here's another problem is that what you know
Speaker 3: you're gonna have to pull from the USL Championship for
Speaker 3: this new D one league. Who you're putting in the
Speaker 3: USL Championship, You're gonna have to expand there right now.
Speaker 1: There are expansion teams that are supposedly coming in.
Speaker 3: Well, I know Lexington just moved from League One to
Speaker 3: the championship, so you have.
Speaker 1: Somewhere brook Lyc, but that could just become your USL
Speaker 1: Division One team in New York. I don't know Jacksonville,
Speaker 1: which unless they get a real stadium, which doesn't look
Speaker 1: like it's going to happen, they're going to be championship.
Speaker 1: Santa Barbara, which technically has a fifteen thousand seed stadium,
Speaker 1: could be in there. I don't know.
Speaker 3: I don't Santa Barbara is what was formerly known as Memphis.
Speaker 1: Nin Sorry, Milwaukee, Ozark, Buffalo, and then rumored Iowa Palm
Speaker 1: Beach in Dallas. Now they've also rumored I think a
Speaker 1: Fort Worth team at some point. So I get your point,
Speaker 1: but I think there are teams that would be more
Speaker 1: willing to take it. But some of those teams i'd
Speaker 1: say need to be in Division one. Buffalo, Brooklyn, those
Speaker 1: are your Those are your Division one teams. In my opinion,
Speaker 1: Lawrence is frustrated.
Speaker 3: If you yes, I think this whole thing is stupid,
Speaker 3: and I think it will fail, and you know, you
Speaker 3: also have to to wonder if it actually gets off
Speaker 3: the ground. USL has has thrown a lot of big
Speaker 3: ideas out there over the years, and how many of
Speaker 3: them have actually happened.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the big one. Let's talk about it.
Speaker 1: We're going into it. Here we go. How long Lawrence
Speaker 1: has USL floated, Oh, we might do prorail. Oh we're gonna.
Speaker 3: They've They've been doing it at least since I started
Speaker 3: covering Memphis nine on ONEFC in twenty nineteen, so that's
Speaker 3: six seven years.
Speaker 1: So what is stopping USL from doing pro rail right now?
Speaker 2: I'm not sure, I mean exactly unless there's some sort
Speaker 2: of like stadium requirement for the teams below that it's
Speaker 2: not right because it because you could do it right,
Speaker 2: because I mean, again, you're gonna have bigger I mean,
Speaker 2: largest point is the same five teams are gonna be there,
Speaker 2: just like they are everywhere else in the world. Right,
Speaker 2: the same five teams are there. They'll be there, right
Speaker 2: and then you can just mix in because that is
Speaker 2: gonna draw more interest locally. I can tell you right now,
Speaker 2: if you have, say, hey, Portland has a chance to
Speaker 2: move up to do you know the championship. Holy crap,
Speaker 2: that's huge, right, Like you know there's six thousand you know,
Speaker 2: like there's stories behind that.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That that that I think people can grasp onto as
Speaker 2: supposed to saying, well, you know they're gonna be in
Speaker 2: Division one. You know, I don't know, like you already
Speaker 2: have it built, like like refine it, you know, balance
Speaker 2: the teams a little bit more. You're gonna have more
Speaker 2: teams than fourteen in that second that second division of USL,
Speaker 2: I think, but you know they've got one hundred and
Speaker 2: forty some odd teams in the in the third one.
Speaker 4: But you have to figure that out.
Speaker 1: That is that is a legitimate actually thought though I
Speaker 1: think Thomas is sorry, we're derailing a little bit. But
Speaker 1: if you move some of your USL Championship teams up
Speaker 1: to prem I'm just calling it the premiership now. It's
Speaker 1: too easy. That's what it's gonna be called.
Speaker 4: Sorry.
Speaker 1: That is, you move some League one up to the
Speaker 1: championship some of the League ones, Like I think if
Speaker 1: you get Omaha Stadium, that could happen. There are teams
Speaker 1: that could do it. You're gonna move some D two
Speaker 1: teams up, you know, you're just going to And some
Speaker 1: of those are not like a lot of D two
Speaker 1: teams are by no shape like at all, you know, professional.
Speaker 1: Some of them might find interest in that, you know,
Speaker 1: if they if they have a decent run. But anyway, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know why. I don't know why you can't
Speaker 1: do pro rail right now.
Speaker 4: I don't know why either.
Speaker 2: I mean, I just think that there's there's a thirst
Speaker 2: four in this country, and I think you're gonna pull
Speaker 2: a big group of people who are kind of fringe
Speaker 2: on males fans. Right the games are on. Maybe I'll
Speaker 2: watch it, Maybe I won't like to like to do
Speaker 2: that piece of it. As I said earlier, mols is
Speaker 2: not going there. That is that's the uniqueness you have
Speaker 2: is to do that piece of it. And that's not
Speaker 2: gonna cast you that much of anything.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you could do it this season.
Speaker 3: And and and the thing about it is like, oh
Speaker 3: I lost my train, thought damn, well, I kinda say
Speaker 3: I forgot oh my no, But like this, like you've
Speaker 3: talked about it for years, the infrastructure to do it
Speaker 3: is already there. I if the whole reason that you're
Speaker 3: floating this new Division one league so we can do
Speaker 3: pro rail. I don't buy that, because you've already had
Speaker 3: the setup to do pro rail as long as as
Speaker 3: long as your league has been structured this way. So
Speaker 3: I don't understand why adding a new league all of
Speaker 3: a sudden gives you something that you claim you didn't
Speaker 3: already have when you did in fact already have it.
Speaker 3: Also another reason why this is done. How many other
Speaker 3: countries in the world have two Division one leagues.
Speaker 1: I don't know if any we've got.
Speaker 3: We already have two Division one leagues in this country,
Speaker 3: and the USL is involved in one of those, and
Speaker 3: it's going every bit as poorly as you would expect itself.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a great question. I've found stick figures of
Speaker 1: centers figures for USL Super League, which is the now
Speaker 1: rival for NWSL. The largest attendant average attendance for the
Speaker 1: league is Carolina Ascent at forty eight hundred. Now that
Speaker 1: has floated by their high attendance being ten thousand, the
Speaker 1: highest they they know that that was just their opening
Speaker 1: game and their stadium homes t thousand. It's a nice stadium.
Speaker 1: They renovated it out just east of Charlotte. It's still
Speaker 1: in the Charlotte city limits. Dallas Trinity's the next highest
Speaker 1: at fifty eight hundred, but their average is only three thousand,
Speaker 1: five hundred. They're not exactly making waves. And that's what
Speaker 1: I'm I'm with you, Lawrence. I don't USL Super League
Speaker 1: A didn't need to exist. We didn't need another women's team,
Speaker 1: especially when you had the opportunity to do a USL
Speaker 1: championship level league, basically a second division leaguing within the
Speaker 1: USL structure.
Speaker 4: But you did it.
Speaker 1: Do it, you passed on it. You have a women's
Speaker 1: league that doesn't that is what I think they call
Speaker 1: it pre professional, so you don't even have a professional
Speaker 1: women's league. But you decided to go for D one
Speaker 1: right off the bat instead of a Division two league.
Speaker 1: And it's not it's only it's only half of the season,
Speaker 1: so I'm not going to cast wide dispersions on it yet.
Speaker 1: But it's not like it's going well. And the reason
Speaker 1: is I don't watch much of it. As good as
Speaker 1: the product isn't as good as n WSL.
Speaker 3: You also have to take into account that most of
Speaker 3: the with the exception of maybe Portland and at Portland,
Speaker 3: Oregon and Kansas City current well, not even Kansas City.
Speaker 1: Current well angle Angel City.
Speaker 3: Is Angel City. Most of most of the teams in
Speaker 3: the NWSL draw would be middle of the table in
Speaker 3: the USL Championship. So were given people something that nobody
Speaker 3: asked for and that nobody needed. And then here the
Speaker 3: USL is again attempting to give people something that we
Speaker 3: didn't ask for and we don't need, Thomas.
Speaker 1: If this happens, we're gonna have forty two top flight
Speaker 1: teams in this country.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: The real question is can this league be successful and
Speaker 1: if so, how or why not?
Speaker 2: I mean, they have to They're gonna have to learn
Speaker 2: from the mistakes of the n ASL. I I can't
Speaker 2: say that, but they're gonna have to learn from the
Speaker 2: mistakes that that that league had for the eight seasons
Speaker 2: it was there and figure out how they're going to
Speaker 2: generate talent, interest, all these things and be able to
Speaker 2: continue growing the league in an already saturated country in
Speaker 2: terms of where things are and what the requirements are.
Speaker 2: So I just I don't see any way forward to that.
Speaker 2: It's I just think to me, it's there's either an
Speaker 2: alterium motive or just a pipe dream vision of this
Speaker 2: being able to work out, because I I just don't
Speaker 2: see it. I don't know how many markets the MLS
Speaker 2: is looking to expand to, because they've in my opinion,
Speaker 2: they're what thirty there are there are apposing thirty two
Speaker 2: team league, which is you know, as big as any
Speaker 2: other UH sports league that we have in this country.
Speaker 4: Right, So at some point you just you're at saturation.
Speaker 3: Well the only real way when the only real way
Speaker 3: that you're making money is expansion fees, you can't really
Speaker 3: afford to stop expanding.
Speaker 4: Now, can you.
Speaker 2: Right, And then that's a little bit of a flaw
Speaker 2: of how it is in general, Like at some point
Speaker 2: they've got MLS has to figure out really what they
Speaker 2: are like that right now they're riding on the messy
Speaker 2: you know, the messy UH money right that he's bringing
Speaker 2: into the league, which is, you know, don't find a
Speaker 2: smart move. But when he goes and what does that
Speaker 2: where does that leave? It drops their interest down drastically.
Speaker 2: So and so those are the things that I don't
Speaker 2: think USL is going to be able.
Speaker 4: To pull in.
Speaker 2: They're enough players two to pay them and wellst can't
Speaker 2: even do that typically right, So how is USL gonna
Speaker 2: be able to pull in the talent to draw that interests? Again,
Speaker 2: go back to I think they have a niche where
Speaker 2: they are. They just need they just need to make
Speaker 2: a few small tweaks at pro rel and I think
Speaker 2: they're you know, they'll progressively, you know, start making more
Speaker 2: and more money and maybe at a time down you know,
Speaker 2: ten years down the road maybe which they don't want
Speaker 2: to wait, then they can make that leap.
Speaker 1: But not now, Lawrence will let's be successful.
Speaker 3: I'm happy with that. No, not happening. This is going
Speaker 3: to be I mean, this is going to be like,
Speaker 3: there's going to be documentaries made about what a disaster
Speaker 3: this is. You know, Netflix will have one, Amazon will
Speaker 3: have one, Apple will have one, Hulu will have like that.
Speaker 3: Everybody's gonna make a documentary like who killed the USL
Speaker 3: D one league? Nobody?
Speaker 4: It was.
Speaker 3: It was stupid, it was unnecessary, They didn't need it.
Speaker 3: They And here here's another thing. This is something that
Speaker 3: has just now occurred to me as we've been talking
Speaker 3: about this. I believe this new new league is gonna fail.
Speaker 3: And if you pull all the successful teams out of
Speaker 3: the USL championship, like you're imperiling those other leagues when
Speaker 3: this one league fails, like it's it's almost gonna be
Speaker 3: I think a domino effect unless uh, the USL champion,
Speaker 3: the USL just goes Now you can go back to
Speaker 3: the championship. The d one thing didn't work out, it's cool.
Speaker 3: I think this is gonna be a disaster, and it's
Speaker 3: gonna it's it's I don't know that it's gonna set
Speaker 3: soccer back in this country. I don't want to, you know,
Speaker 3: make that grandiose of a proclamation, because we are going
Speaker 3: to be right on the heels of you know, Latin
Speaker 3: Copa America last year, Club World Cup, this year, World Cup,
Speaker 3: next year, Olympic twenty eight. But I think it's it's
Speaker 3: it's gonna be an embarrassment. Then it's it's for people
Speaker 3: that care about the cause of the game in this country.
Speaker 3: It's gonna it's gonna leave us in an awkward spot
Speaker 3: trying to explain why a hole league popped up and
Speaker 3: then disappeared.
Speaker 1: I really thought we were done with this and in
Speaker 1: US soccer landscape. And I don't mean that in a
Speaker 1: bad way, because it felt like after the NASL thing
Speaker 1: and USL came around. USL feels like, and this is
Speaker 1: why I'm with you. I don't understand why they're doing it.
Speaker 1: I don't think they'll be particularly successful, but I don't
Speaker 1: understand why they're doing it because it feels like they
Speaker 1: actually are starting to get to a good place of stability,
Speaker 1: of recognition, and maybe they see, to Thomas's point, the
Speaker 1: MLS messy money running out and not really having a
Speaker 1: plan to capitalize after twenty twenty seven or after twenty
Speaker 1: twenty six, so they're thinking, let's do that. But I
Speaker 1: think the biggest issue for me is starting from scratch
Speaker 1: and not even being able to take most of the
Speaker 1: clubs that I mean. You might be able to bring
Speaker 1: up your more successful clubs, but you're going to be
Speaker 1: expanding into areas that are unproven soccer. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: if you're looking at like Cleveland, per se Buffalo, Maryland,
Speaker 1: which is the largest MSA without Baltimore, which is the
Speaker 1: largest MSA without a soccer team in it, not exactly
Speaker 1: you know, and I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
Speaker 1: I want soccer to exist everywhere and thrive everywhere, but
Speaker 1: these aren't places that have even had teams in the
Speaker 1: past that you can go, oh, well, the Cleveland Soccers
Speaker 1: existed ten years ago, they folded because the owner sucked,
Speaker 1: which is exactly what happened to the sober Backs here.
Speaker 1: But hey, we got a new guy in here, and
Speaker 1: people who were once part of that can jump onto it.
Speaker 1: You're going to be grasping for a lot of areas
Speaker 1: and you're going to have to building a lot of
Speaker 1: infrastructure and a lot of goodwill before you can even
Speaker 1: start thinking about is the soccer actually going to be good,
Speaker 1: which it won't be for a long time. And that's
Speaker 1: the problem you have here is MLS. Despite what you
Speaker 1: want to say, the product of MLS on the field
Speaker 1: has improved greatly over the past decade and is now
Speaker 1: competitive with at least Ligamech East, which is what most
Speaker 1: people in this hemisphere which are in this continent would
Speaker 1: say is the best league. USL is not going to
Speaker 1: be at that point. Will it maybe be better than
Speaker 1: the Canadian Premier League probably? Woo yeah. Yeah. Like you're
Speaker 1: talking about a bunch of a team that has a
Speaker 1: league that has eight teams, half of them play in
Speaker 1: a stadium that has put up bleachers around open field.
Speaker 1: Of grass, you know, is that what you're aiming for?
Speaker 1: Is it just to be a I don't understand what
Speaker 1: their goal is. I really don't, and I think to me,
Speaker 1: that's why they won't be successful is because the goal
Speaker 1: is not very like someone else is doing your goal already,
Speaker 1: you know. And furthermore, you can already do this, like
Speaker 1: you could make USL Championship better. You could make USL
Speaker 1: League One better. You could if you really wanted to
Speaker 1: create a true fourth division, not a pre professional, a
Speaker 1: true fourth division and do your own pro rale you
Speaker 1: don't like. I just feel like they're doing a lot
Speaker 1: of this stuff because I think that, oh, we can
Speaker 1: and should. I don't know who told them this was
Speaker 1: a good idea. I just I know they've done all
Speaker 1: the research. But look, a lot of a lot of
Speaker 1: people will pay We'll tell you what you want to
Speaker 1: know or what you ask to know, if you pay
Speaker 1: me enough money. And I'm My concern isn't that I'll
Speaker 1: ruin soccer, but I think it might ruin the taste
Speaker 1: of soccer and a lot of people's mouths in some
Speaker 1: of these markets, like Louisville, like New Mexico, where they've
Speaker 1: had a pretty good setting footing and if if their
Speaker 1: club goes away or has to drop back down to championship,
Speaker 1: are those people going to be interested?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think one thing, we're we're all discussing this like
Speaker 3: it's a done deal, like it's happening. I think we
Speaker 3: still have to wait for US Soccer to approve this
Speaker 3: correct and so you know, I've been yelling and screaming
Speaker 3: about everything wrong with US Soccer for the better part
Speaker 3: of a decade. Here's what I'll say. I really like
Speaker 3: I'm starting to like the attitude and the rhetoric coming
Speaker 3: out of US Soccer the last year.
Speaker 1: Oh you know now that JT, Cindy and Matter are
Speaker 1: all working together with like Copdent people's copy soccer people.
Speaker 3: Making you know, making good coaching hires on both the
Speaker 3: men's and women's sides. A lot of the messaging that
Speaker 3: JT bats and has been has been sending out as
Speaker 3: far as you know, we want to make all these
Speaker 3: games big events, this this. You know, there's a lot
Speaker 3: of they d sanctioned NISA finally, which was which, which
Speaker 3: is great. So I'm I have to imagine they would
Speaker 3: they're We're They're not We're not there yet, but I
Speaker 3: think we're starting to get to a point where I'm
Speaker 3: willing to once again give you a soccer the benefit
Speaker 3: of that doubt. And if they you know, if they
Speaker 3: have the same concerns and questions that we have here tonight,
Speaker 3: I think it's gonna be tough sledding for the USL
Speaker 3: to convince them that, hey, this is a good idea
Speaker 3: and this is gonna work. And my hope is that if, if,
Speaker 3: if they keep doing and acting the way that they've
Speaker 3: been doing things and acting recently, and I think we
Speaker 3: might be in a spot where they're just they're gonna
Speaker 3: they're gonna say no, not happen to go away.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Because I think Barbara brings up a good point
Speaker 4: to it.
Speaker 2: This isn't good for the This isn't good for the game,
Speaker 2: like for it to fail, because you don't want to
Speaker 2: fail in the market, right, You don't want.
Speaker 4: To lose the team, right you.
Speaker 2: You know, you need to figure out ways to keep
Speaker 2: the teams that are where they are and figure out
Speaker 2: how we're going to sustain that because again you've lost
Speaker 2: teams either because they've moved, m lost, next folded, whatever
Speaker 2: it is, Well, Okay, some moves are fine, but like
Speaker 2: figure out how you're going to sustain and hold what
Speaker 2: you have to again, create that pyramid, create a three
Speaker 2: tier pyramid, right, and then use pro reillm there and
Speaker 2: then work from that for a competitive team that maybe
Speaker 2: you don't have as many teams in the top tier.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's fourteen, fourteen and fourteen, I don't know, but
Speaker 2: but you do something of that nature. But you can't
Speaker 2: hurt the product that's there. That's the concern. You do
Speaker 2: not want to diminish that because you know that I
Speaker 2: think that that failure is is something that we can't
Speaker 2: We can't have after all of stuff, you know, after
Speaker 2: ninety four and whatever, in after what twenty twenty six,
Speaker 2: who knows what's going to be there. We can't lose
Speaker 2: that momentum. We have to continue moving in the right direction.
Speaker 2: And if you are soccer doesn't see that that that's there,
Speaker 2: you know, I could you know, to Lawrence's point, I
Speaker 2: can just see them not allowing it at all, which hopefully.
Speaker 4: Is you know what ends up happening.
Speaker 1: All Right, gentlemen, we have talked for almost an hour
Speaker 1: and a half about this thing that may or may
Speaker 1: not happen because, you know, to be fair. Also, the
Speaker 1: as Lawrence points out, the us soacras to approve it,
Speaker 1: and they say, we have plans to launch, and that
Speaker 1: is not the same as we are launching. We don't
Speaker 1: know which clubs are going to be part of it.
Speaker 1: You would think that if they were launching a league
Speaker 1: in two years, they would have clubs, you know they
Speaker 1: The point is there's a lot of unknowns for a
Speaker 1: league that wants to be here in two years, and that,
Speaker 1: to me, again is just the culmination of why I
Speaker 1: don't think this will be super successful. That said, I
Speaker 1: want soccer to be a success in this country. I
Speaker 1: want more cities to have legitimate professional soccer teams, and
Speaker 1: to that end, I hope that this is somewhat successful,
Speaker 1: but I don't think that's gonna happen. Lawrence, let's just close.
Speaker 1: Give me your final closing thought that you have tonight.
Speaker 3: The closing thought is that while I appreciate what they
Speaker 3: appear to understand is the importance of capitalizing on hosting
Speaker 3: a World Cup in this country, not just the World Cup,
Speaker 3: but you know, stuff this year and then the Olympics
Speaker 3: and all that, all this high level soccer. I appreciate
Speaker 3: that they are trying to do something to capitalize on it.
Speaker 3: I just think this is not at all a good
Speaker 3: idea to go about it in this way, with this thing.
Speaker 3: And I I've said it before and I'll continue to
Speaker 3: say it. I if this, if this does get the
Speaker 3: green light, I think it will fail, and I think
Speaker 3: it will be a disaster and a huge embarrassment for
Speaker 3: the game in this country. And I really would prefer
Speaker 3: to see it not happen. The only way I would
Speaker 3: be on board with it happening is if somehow, some
Speaker 3: way that brought a professional team back to Memphis.
Speaker 1: Support that for you, Thomas, I'd love to hear your
Speaker 1: final thoughts on this whole matter as well, if you
Speaker 1: have them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I probably never happened, but you never know.
Speaker 2: I meant the collaboration that doesn't exist between MLS and USL,
Speaker 2: to me, I think is where this whole conversation is lacking.
Speaker 4: I think there is a past there.
Speaker 2: It's, you know, in some form of fashion that we
Speaker 2: can have the best of both worlds and maybe find
Speaker 2: that again, find that uniqueness that SL has a capitalize
Speaker 2: on that and allow that pro real to exist and
Speaker 2: then maybe in some respects you can have the best
Speaker 2: of both worlds between the two leagues and they can
Speaker 2: share that and maybe at some point if Emma Lots
Speaker 2: can figure it out, you know, maybe they can jump
Speaker 2: into that into that fray. But it's, uh, it's it's
Speaker 2: interesting to talk about for sure, But.
Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate both of you gentlemen, joining me on
Speaker 1: this episode tonight. You can follow Lawrence himself on Twitter
Speaker 1: at l DOC ninety three. You can also follow the
Speaker 1: Memphis nine not Memphis nine one, the nine on one
Speaker 1: Soccer podcast sorry on Twitter as well and Bluff City Media. Also,
Speaker 1: this first time I've talked to you in persons that
Speaker 1: you got married, and congratulations on that, sir.
Speaker 3: Thank you. I appreciate that it was one month today
Speaker 3: as a matter of fact.
Speaker 1: Wow, congratulations. I hope the honeymoon period is still going well.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 1: Absolutely good to a man who's been married a little
Speaker 1: bit longer.
Speaker 4: Yeah, quite, I've been on my I've been I've been
Speaker 4: with my wife.
Speaker 2: For thirty years in uh in October, married for twenty
Speaker 2: in October, so and I'm only forty five. So we've
Speaker 2: been uh together since high school.
Speaker 1: So it's amazing.
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, it's it's good stuff, but it's it's you know,
Speaker 2: there's work involved, and and I appreciate the time that
Speaker 2: she allows me to do my passion and love for soocker.
Speaker 4: So it's always great being here.
Speaker 1: Thanks well, yes, thank you both for being here. You
Speaker 1: can follow Thomas on Twitter at us Keeper. You can
Speaker 1: follow this show on Twitter and Blue Skuy at soccer
Speaker 1: for us pod. Thanks everyone for listening. I'm Mark, I'm
Speaker 5: And