WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.110 --> 00:00:02.109 I don't want to indulge in any of those games, 2 00:00:02.189 --> 00:00:04.629 but it is a communist holiday, and I do resent it. 3 00:00:05.089 --> 00:00:05.650 Okay, good. 4 00:00:05.669 --> 00:00:10.589 I agree. AI data centers waste millions of gallons of water. 5 00:00:11.470 --> 00:00:13.890 That's why Liquid Death and Garage Beer decided to team up. 6 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:17.980 We want your pee to cool these data centers. 7 00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:21.620 It's the Ricochet Podcast with James Lilacs. That's me, Charles C.W. Cook, 8 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:23.920 and Stephen Hayward. We're going to talk to Mark Mills 9 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:28.120 about AI. Don't fear the future. Let's have ourselves a podcast. 10 00:00:28.500 --> 00:00:30.629 What's interesting about when you get far enough away from 11 00:00:30.649 --> 00:00:34.049 a time period that's quite distinct, I think there's always 12 00:00:34.090 --> 00:00:35.950 a lovely feeling associated with it. It's almost like you 13 00:00:35.969 --> 00:00:38.030 pave over all the trauma with, like, puppy dogs and 14 00:00:38.070 --> 00:00:38.469 ice cream. 15 00:00:39.070 --> 00:00:40.390 And the 80s was a. 16 00:00:40.429 --> 00:00:42.219 Brutal, brutal time for people. 17 00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:43.820 It was a f * * * ing mess. And, like, 18 00:00:44.140 --> 00:00:45.880 you know, people forget that it was, like, there was 19 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:50.840 a tremendous strife, sociopolitical tensions everywhere. You know, we're still, like, 20 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:54.070 pretty fresh off, like, a Cuban Missile Crisis, which is only, like, what, 15, 21 00:00:54.039 --> 00:00:59.259 20 years before... So, you know, it's a tumultuous period, 22 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:00.880 but you look back at it now, and you're like, oh, yeah, 23 00:01:00.899 --> 00:01:02.240 Top Gun, cocaine. 24 00:01:03.479 --> 00:01:04.319 There you go again. 25 00:01:04.939 --> 00:01:09.260 Welcome, everybody. It's the Ricochet Podcast, number 805. I'm James 26 00:01:09.299 --> 00:01:12.579 Lilacs in sunny Edina, Minnesota, or Edina, as the AI 27 00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:15.370 likes to pronounce it. Stephen Hayward in California. Charles C.W. 28 00:01:15.530 --> 00:01:18.870 Cook in Florida. Gentlemen, welcome. We are on the cusp 29 00:01:18.909 --> 00:01:20.310 of a holiday weekend here. 30 00:01:20.450 --> 00:01:21.030 All is great. 31 00:01:21.430 --> 00:01:24.909 Summer is winding down. The Minnesota State Fair is... the 32 00:01:24.950 --> 00:01:27.489 end of which signifies the end of summer, is having 33 00:01:27.530 --> 00:01:29.790 a bit of a controversy now because of the political 34 00:01:29.810 --> 00:01:34.879 nature of the seed art. Somebody put 8647 in seeds 35 00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:40.120 and then had red seeds underneath to indicate blood. There 36 00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:43.659 are seed art portraits of Minnesota martyrs like St. 37 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:44.459 George Floyd. 38 00:01:45.500 --> 00:01:50.629 There is Donald Trump stuffed with beans or something. It's 39 00:01:50.689 --> 00:01:56.409 just so... appallingly banal that people can't feel the need 40 00:01:56.450 --> 00:02:00.129 to infuse their tiresome politics and shove it into everything 41 00:02:00.769 --> 00:02:02.709 and i wonder whether or not that the uh the 42 00:02:02.750 --> 00:02:05.030 seed art this year is being funded by ngos or 43 00:02:05.090 --> 00:02:08.530 non-profits i know that sounds like paranoia but stephen hayward 44 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:13.500 friend actually has a a modest proposal on what to 45 00:02:13.539 --> 00:02:16.280 do uh with non-profits why don't you tell it to 46 00:02:16.300 --> 00:02:17.180 charles and myself. 47 00:02:17.419 --> 00:02:19.939 Well, first of all, James, about the seed art, I 48 00:02:20.020 --> 00:02:22.569 think we should counter it by spreading the rumor that 49 00:02:22.590 --> 00:02:26.469 they're all made with genetically modified seeds, right? Because that 50 00:02:26.509 --> 00:02:28.030 will cause a cognitive dissonance and all that. 51 00:02:28.050 --> 00:02:28.689 Precisely. 52 00:02:29.050 --> 00:02:31.120 Yeah, so, I mean, long story, but I had this 53 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:34.479 crazy idea– not crazy, but it won't happen– that we 54 00:02:34.500 --> 00:02:37.819 should abolish the nonprofit sector. Now, I don't mean that literally, 55 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:41.830 because you go back to Tocqueville, American voluntary civic organizations 56 00:02:41.870 --> 00:02:44.270 have always been part of America's DNA and what set 57 00:02:44.310 --> 00:02:47.039 us apart. It's a key part of American exceptionalism. But 58 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:48.580 what I do think should be done is maybe we 59 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:51.919 should think about ending the tax deductibility of contributions to 60 00:02:51.939 --> 00:02:54.289 the nonprofit sector. The reason I say that is the 61 00:02:54.349 --> 00:02:56.849 nonprofit sector, not all of it, not our local churches 62 00:02:56.889 --> 00:02:59.830 that we belong to, not the local Lions Club perhaps, 63 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:04.099 but the sector itself has, like so many institutions, become 64 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:07.680 thoroughly captured by the left. up to all kinds of mischief, 65 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:10.460 and making claims. And this actually goes back at least 66 00:03:10.460 --> 00:03:13.340 30 years now. They make claims that the nonprofit sector 67 00:03:13.379 --> 00:03:18.099 should be accorded the status of a formal stakeholder, including 68 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:22.069 appointments to corporate boards and input to all public policy decisions. 69 00:03:22.250 --> 00:03:25.530 And I think this is insidious. And I thought, you know, 70 00:03:25.650 --> 00:03:27.629 if we got rid of the tax deductibility for it, 71 00:03:27.789 --> 00:03:30.219 it would clip the wings of, well– Let's start with 72 00:03:30.259 --> 00:03:32.599 a lot of private liberal arts colleges where a lot 73 00:03:32.620 --> 00:03:35.060 of alumni would quit giving their annual gifts if they 74 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:38.159 couldn't deduct it on their taxes. So what's not to like? 75 00:03:38.379 --> 00:03:41.000 And it would also clip the wings a bit of 76 00:03:41.060 --> 00:03:45.289 some of the huge left-wing foundations, Ford, Rockefeller, Soros, for 77 00:03:45.310 --> 00:03:49.210 that matter, and Mellon Foundation and others. So I threw 78 00:03:49.229 --> 00:03:50.930 it out as a thought experiment, and it got a 79 00:03:50.990 --> 00:03:55.830 lot of buzz and controversy. And anyway, when I hear 80 00:03:55.849 --> 00:03:59.500 people talk about the nonprofit sector, it just gets my back. 81 00:04:00.060 --> 00:04:00.840 Charles, do you agree? 82 00:04:02.180 --> 00:04:02.780 I don't know. 83 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:08.889 That's a remarkable change to our tax code and would 84 00:04:08.949 --> 00:04:11.830 restructure an enormous number of things. What I would like 85 00:04:11.889 --> 00:04:14.969 to see, which I think I do already have an 86 00:04:15.030 --> 00:04:23.470 opinion on, is the government using non-profits less. Now, that 87 00:04:23.689 --> 00:04:27.399 would be easy to affect. I mean, I'm thinking obviously, 88 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:33.220 of California and homelessness charities, which seem to rake in 89 00:04:33.379 --> 00:04:36.279 billions of dollars while making the problem worse, or at 90 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:41.180 least not making them better. That is full of all 91 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:44.959 manner of ugly incentives. Whether I want to change the 92 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:49.959 tax code to make the contributions from private actors to 93 00:04:50.019 --> 00:04:58.509 those non-profits illegal or treated... as any other contribution would be, rather? 94 00:04:58.550 --> 00:05:00.629 I don't know. I just have to think about that, Steve. 95 00:05:01.689 --> 00:05:04.870 Well, I mean, I just want a sort of brief rebuttal. 96 00:05:04.910 --> 00:05:07.470 Most people who throw $ 20 into the collection plate at 97 00:05:07.509 --> 00:05:09.610 their churches don't itemize. And there's quite a lot of 98 00:05:09.670 --> 00:05:13.220 data on this, that conservatives are actually more charitable than liberals. 99 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:16.300 I mean, the famous story of Hillary Clinton deducting $ 1. 50 100 00:05:15.980 --> 00:05:18.600 for bills used underwear on their tax forms is very 101 00:05:18.660 --> 00:05:21.040 emblematic of the left. They want the government to do it. 102 00:05:21.470 --> 00:05:23.670 And that's why an awful lot of the nonprofit sector 103 00:05:23.709 --> 00:05:26.910 depends on government grants like the homeless industrial complex that 104 00:05:26.930 --> 00:05:30.290 you mentioned. And so I actually think that, you know, 105 00:05:30.329 --> 00:05:34.360 the sort of the good old Tocqueville style civil society 106 00:05:34.420 --> 00:05:36.959 stuff would go on just fine without a tax deduction 107 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:38.819 for it. And, you know, I like to point out 108 00:05:38.860 --> 00:05:41.579 that the Medici's and the rest, they didn't support Florentine 109 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:44.579 art for the tax deductions. And I think that people 110 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:46.769 who are seriously interested in the arts can still support it. 111 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:49.720 It's just that the taxpayers don't have to cross-subsidize it anymore. 112 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:54.439 That's the more modest version of it. I wouldn't abolish nonprofits. 113 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:56.899 That is a crazy idea. It would be cutting off 114 00:05:56.930 --> 00:05:58.259 your nose in spite of your face. 115 00:05:58.670 --> 00:06:00.670 You mentioned the Lions. I almost joined the Lions once, 116 00:06:00.709 --> 00:06:03.089 but there was a scheduling conflict. What they did was 117 00:06:03.129 --> 00:06:05.170 they cleaned up streets. They went places and they picked 118 00:06:05.209 --> 00:06:07.689 up trash. And then they also had drives to collect 119 00:06:08.370 --> 00:06:12.290 used eyeglasses, which would go to Africa. Wonderful bunch of people. 120 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:16.259 What I want to do after I've won the lottery, win, say, 121 00:06:16.259 --> 00:06:20.240 $ 800 million in the lottery, I'm going to take $ 300 122 00:06:19.980 --> 00:06:22.699 million of that and I'm going to create the Lilacs Foundation. 123 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:27.040 And I'm going to expressly staff it with as many Marxists, socialists, 124 00:06:27.180 --> 00:06:31.069 and collectivists as I possibly can. The reason being is 125 00:06:31.110 --> 00:06:32.810 that's the only way that I can assure that in 126 00:06:32.870 --> 00:06:38.480 two generations it will do something completely different. Like the 127 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:40.610 Ford and the rest of them. If you set up 128 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:43.110 a foundation dedicated to American society, all of a sudden 129 00:06:43.129 --> 00:06:46.069 in two generations, it's doing its best to ruin the country. 130 00:06:46.350 --> 00:06:47.769 So I'm going to try it from the other way 131 00:06:47.810 --> 00:06:48.730 and see how the institution works. 132 00:06:48.750 --> 00:06:54.269 James, you could also give them totally pointless, fruitless work 133 00:06:54.310 --> 00:06:59.480 to do, but pay them, thereby taking them out of society, 134 00:06:59.720 --> 00:07:04.209 trapping them, the golden handcuffs, and making sure they can't 135 00:07:04.250 --> 00:07:07.699 do any mischief whatsoever that affects anything that you care about. 136 00:07:07.720 --> 00:07:11.279 That would be a good idea, because the underutilization of 137 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:14.300 these people leads them to do the stupidest, strangest things. 138 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:17.300 There's a case of this mentally ill woman in the 139 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:19.540 streets of New York who had stabbed two people, one 140 00:07:19.579 --> 00:07:21.839 to death, and she was going after the cops and 141 00:07:21.899 --> 00:07:25.480 was irrigated, and got the lettuce selling, and down she went. 142 00:07:26.259 --> 00:07:28.959 And there's a lot of nailing and wailing and gnashing 143 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:30.439 about why didn't they shoot her in the arm, why 144 00:07:30.459 --> 00:07:33.420 didn't they shoot her in the leg, please. But what's 145 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:36.300 interesting is the people who are defending the death of 146 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:39.610 the young woman that she'd stabbed because she worked for 147 00:07:39.620 --> 00:07:41.709 the Bank of America and therefore she was part of 148 00:07:41.730 --> 00:07:45.029 the industrial capitalist complex. She was a vice president, for 149 00:07:45.050 --> 00:07:48.310 God's sakes. And there are people, legitimate people, actual people 150 00:07:48.410 --> 00:07:50.410 on Twitter saying, I'm not, you know, this is what 151 00:07:50.449 --> 00:07:53.550 we need to do more of. And it's a sign 152 00:07:53.689 --> 00:07:57.329 of how ethically reprehensible and morally vacuous that these people 153 00:07:57.350 --> 00:07:59.810 have become. This is the Luigi, this is the, you know, 154 00:07:59.829 --> 00:08:02.829 the Luigi Mangione thing. uh you know fan club this 155 00:08:02.990 --> 00:08:06.050 is this is them what constitutes a new set of 156 00:08:06.149 --> 00:08:09.620 ethics that we have to get used to if the 157 00:08:09.649 --> 00:08:10.819 revolution is going to come. 158 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:13.300 But that woman had no idea who she was killing 159 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:16.740 right no she didn't know whatsoever in effect that their 160 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:20.079 endorsement leads to the position that we should have random 161 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:22.720 mentally ill people running around manhattan with knives on the 162 00:08:22.779 --> 00:08:25.079 off chance they kill someone that they wouldn't have liked 163 00:08:25.100 --> 00:08:27.769 in the first place Exactly. And they tried to tase her, 164 00:08:27.779 --> 00:08:29.980 but she was too fat, which was really, really funny 165 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:33.389 because that was the answer. And I saw this exchange 166 00:08:33.429 --> 00:08:36.259 where someone said, Well, it just shows how inhumane and 167 00:08:36.299 --> 00:08:38.419 barbaric our police are. Why didn't they tase it? Well, 168 00:08:38.460 --> 00:08:40.700 they did tase it. Well, why didn't it work? It's 169 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:41.899 because she is huge. 170 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:44.679 But I think it's actually worse than that, Charlie. I 171 00:08:44.750 --> 00:08:47.629 think we are back to what used to be part 172 00:08:47.669 --> 00:08:50.789 of the radical left decades ago, which was a sanctification 173 00:08:50.830 --> 00:08:53.169 of violence, a celebration of violence for its own sake. 174 00:08:53.370 --> 00:08:55.610 Which makes me come back to your opener, James, which is, 175 00:08:55.649 --> 00:08:59.340 you know, those seeds … look like they have sprouted 176 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:03.039 into a really noxious wheat. It's not a strong enough 177 00:09:03.539 --> 00:09:05.840 metaphor for it, but you can see that those seeds 178 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:08.700 are emblematic of something that's growing up and growing very fast, 179 00:09:08.740 --> 00:09:09.620 and it's very bad. 180 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:11.730 Yeah, it is. I have a piece in National Review 181 00:09:11.789 --> 00:09:14.990 Online this week. My weekly column this weekend is about questions. 182 00:09:17.850 --> 00:09:20.409 Here's my job. Do I deserve stabbing? This is what 183 00:09:20.450 --> 00:09:22.029 I do for the company. Is this going to give 184 00:09:22.049 --> 00:09:24.129 me a stabbing? So you can pick that up on 185 00:09:24.220 --> 00:09:25.559 NRL if you like. 186 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:27.480 I'll send you my answers to the questions. 187 00:09:28.250 --> 00:09:30.330 Oh, I've already answered them, believe me. I answered them 188 00:09:30.690 --> 00:09:33.350 in the voice of a 27-year-old DSA woman who is 189 00:09:33.389 --> 00:09:35.970 living in Brooklyn in a $ 1. 7 million apartment. 190 00:09:36.529 --> 00:09:37.309 So I don't get a say. 191 00:09:37.870 --> 00:09:40.320 No, the piece is written and it's done. 192 00:09:40.340 --> 00:09:43.340 No, I just thought I would read the piece and 193 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:45.240 then I would send you my thoughts as to whether 194 00:09:45.259 --> 00:09:46.379 or not you deserve to be stabbed. 195 00:09:46.460 --> 00:09:47.460 Okay. 196 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:50.480 I'm sure you've got some pull over there, Ben Hart. So, yes, 197 00:09:50.740 --> 00:09:54.320 you can do this if you wish. Two stories before 198 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:57.480 we go to our guest. Do you want to talk 199 00:09:57.519 --> 00:09:59.899 about the passing of Gloria Steinem or the fact that 200 00:09:59.919 --> 00:10:00.940 the ballroom is going to be built? 201 00:10:02.710 --> 00:10:05.789 Well, a quick comment on the ballroom thing. It's a 202 00:10:05.830 --> 00:10:09.009 ridiculous case for the pleading of the plaintiff from the 203 00:10:09.049 --> 00:10:12.210 National Trust for Historic Preservation. Again, one of those nonprofits 204 00:10:12.230 --> 00:10:15.690 that's become a nuisance over the decades. And the complaint was, well, 205 00:10:15.750 --> 00:10:19.240 I'm aesthetically offended having to walk by the ballroom. Now, 206 00:10:19.299 --> 00:10:22.580 if being aesthetically offended at federal architecture is a legitimate 207 00:10:22.620 --> 00:10:26.590 cause of action– then I'm going to put retroactive lawsuits 208 00:10:26.649 --> 00:10:29.110 and flood the federal courts for every federal courthouse that's 209 00:10:29.129 --> 00:10:30.470 been built, just for starters. 210 00:10:30.570 --> 00:10:31.129 Absolutely. 211 00:10:31.169 --> 00:10:33.870 We have a class action suit over the FBI building 212 00:10:33.909 --> 00:10:34.970 in D.C. 213 00:10:35.169 --> 00:10:40.009 I have to say, I was completely perplexed by John Roberts. 214 00:10:40.350 --> 00:10:40.529 Yes. 215 00:10:41.230 --> 00:10:45.809 John Roberts is not the villain that many on the 216 00:10:45.850 --> 00:10:49.090 right think he is. But he is often a squish. 217 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:58.500 And rarely so on standings. So, suddenly, he, what, becomes 218 00:10:59.580 --> 00:11:05.309 a standing dove? And also, I understand this is not 219 00:11:05.350 --> 00:11:07.870 the mainstream view, but I don't think that there's a 220 00:11:07.889 --> 00:11:09.909 case on the merits. I went back and I read 221 00:11:09.970 --> 00:11:12.600 the statute that Congress passed, which I don't think is 222 00:11:12.620 --> 00:11:14.980 a particularly good statute, and as usual, I would like 223 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:18.019 Congress to do its job rather than delegate power. But 224 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:21.690 it refers to improvements to the building. And so, I 225 00:11:21.730 --> 00:11:26.029 looked at what that word has meant historically in America, 226 00:11:26.230 --> 00:11:30.250 and this obviously counts as an improvement. They didn't take 227 00:11:30.289 --> 00:11:34.649 the building down. They removed a part of the building 228 00:11:34.710 --> 00:11:38.450 that had previously been an improvement, and they're improving it. 229 00:11:38.850 --> 00:11:40.879 How could that not count under this statute? 230 00:11:40.889 --> 00:11:41.500 Yeah. 231 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:44.779 Well, it's because Trump is building it, period. Yes. And 232 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:46.460 I don't believe they have any legal basis to get 233 00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:50.259 rid of the march, the arch that he's building. But 234 00:11:50.659 --> 00:11:53.190 if they could, they would, I'm sure. And whether or 235 00:11:53.210 --> 00:11:56.990 not that's going to be an aesthetic success, we will see. Well, 236 00:11:57.029 --> 00:12:00.730 such is the world. How about let's talk about the future? 237 00:12:04.730 --> 00:12:07.029 And now we welcome to the podcast Mark Mills, founder 238 00:12:07.090 --> 00:12:09.779 and executive director of the National Center for Energy Analytics, 239 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:13.559 a contributing editor to the Manhattan Institute's City Journal, and 240 00:12:13.659 --> 00:12:16.909 author of The Cloud Revolution, How the Convergence of New 241 00:12:16.950 --> 00:12:21.210 Technologies Will Unleash the Next Economic Boom in a Roaring 2020s. Mark, welcome. 242 00:12:22.940 --> 00:12:26.659 It's been an interesting week for AI, has it not? 243 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:29.100 I mean, we had four models, we had four AIs 244 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:33.289 go down simultaneously, everybody thinking that they'd been nixed by 245 00:12:33.350 --> 00:12:37.570 some rogue other LLM that was out there killing at will. 246 00:12:38.029 --> 00:12:41.309 We had all these stories about hugging face experiments that seem, again, 247 00:12:41.350 --> 00:12:45.700 to summon up a dystopia happening beneath the surface of 248 00:12:45.740 --> 00:12:49.340 the placid computers with their blinking lights. We had a massive... 249 00:12:49.460 --> 00:12:54.139 massive outrage on Twitter, bots, social media, everywhere about AI 250 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:59.049 food menus, which brought a new form of tryptophobia discussed 251 00:12:59.070 --> 00:13:02.830 to people. We're grappling with something that is barreling towards 252 00:13:02.909 --> 00:13:05.590 us very fast, or we feel like we're strapped to 253 00:13:05.629 --> 00:13:08.259 the front of a bullet train and we don't know 254 00:13:08.299 --> 00:13:12.840 the destination. So let's slow down. Let's ramp back the panic. 255 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:17.799 You've been called the last optimist for AI. Okay. give 256 00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:20.120 us some more reasons why the people who are out 257 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:23.730 there saying, I am not at all paid by China 258 00:13:23.789 --> 00:13:27.049 to oppose data centers. I just think they're bad because 259 00:13:28.070 --> 00:13:31.809 they use water. Calm us down here and tell us 260 00:13:31.850 --> 00:13:33.250 why we should still be optimistic. 261 00:13:33.289 --> 00:13:35.649 Well, you could take the position that humans are bad 262 00:13:35.690 --> 00:13:36.710 because they use water. 263 00:13:37.389 --> 00:13:41.629 Especially the golfers. Especially the golfers eating almonds. They're the worst. 264 00:13:42.149 --> 00:13:44.450 Well, if you really want to know the biggest offender 265 00:13:44.570 --> 00:13:49.409 for profligate water use, It's the RFS, Renewable Fuel Standards, 266 00:13:49.450 --> 00:13:53.570 and ethanol. Just not to digress into the rabbit hole 267 00:13:53.789 --> 00:14:00.799 of idiot standards for effectless policies, about 600-fold more water 268 00:14:00.940 --> 00:14:04.419 used per gallon of gasoline if you go ethanol than 269 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:09.870 if you stick with just gasoline. 600-fold. That's an astonishing 270 00:14:09.909 --> 00:14:13.769 increase in water use and water waste. But I don't 271 00:14:13.789 --> 00:14:16.149 think I'm the last optimist, but I'm also not Pollyanna. 272 00:14:16.190 --> 00:14:19.870 I mean, I'm a realist. I've been in the investment world. 273 00:14:19.889 --> 00:14:23.960 I've been in the policy world. Reality will slap you 274 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:27.120 upside the face if you pretend to ignore it. That's 275 00:14:27.139 --> 00:14:32.139 why we use the Philip K. Dick quote on our website, 276 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:35.179 which is the great line that reality is that which 277 00:14:35.220 --> 00:14:36.960 still exists even when you ignore it. 278 00:14:38.610 --> 00:14:41.350 Well, using Philip K. Dick, of course, who believed in 279 00:14:41.389 --> 00:14:43.740 the valley behind everything else. 280 00:14:43.750 --> 00:14:47.740 It's perfect because he's a dystopian science fiction writer. And 281 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:50.720 the only thing that makes good science fiction is dystopia. But, 282 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:53.039 you know, that's why the stories sell. 283 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:55.659 So no one's come to your door speaking Greek with 284 00:14:55.700 --> 00:14:57.820 a strange medallion. It's changed your life is what I 285 00:14:57.840 --> 00:14:58.240 want to know. 286 00:14:58.860 --> 00:14:59.159 Okay. 287 00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:04.500 Well, I would say that the roaring 2020s is happening. 288 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.009 It took a couple of years to get rolling. I mean, 289 00:15:07.029 --> 00:15:09.480 when I wrote the book, It came out the end 290 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:12.779 of 2021, really was rolling in January 2022, right before 291 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:15.700 ChatGPT came out. And about a quarter of my books 292 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.000 about AI, the rest is about the other technologies and 293 00:15:18.019 --> 00:15:21.419 the penumbra of the sort of the ecosystem that's changing 294 00:15:21.470 --> 00:15:24.110 the world. I mean, material science is a big deal. 295 00:15:24.169 --> 00:15:27.590 People ignore it because it's boring. What's happening in education 296 00:15:27.629 --> 00:15:30.830 is a big deal, not just from AI. You know, 297 00:15:30.850 --> 00:15:35.490 what's going on in discovery in medicine and biological sciences 298 00:15:35.509 --> 00:15:37.990 is huge. Lots of stuff going on. So I tried to... 299 00:15:38.669 --> 00:15:40.720 I tried to put a thread through my book, and 300 00:15:40.750 --> 00:15:42.820 the thread was, I think, the correct thread, and that's 301 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:45.860 why it's called the cloud revolution, is that the infrastructure 302 00:15:45.899 --> 00:15:49.120 of the cloud writ large is the animating thread to 303 00:15:49.220 --> 00:15:52.120 all the revolutions that are underway, both good and bad, 304 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:56.179 and that people's unhappiness is predicted and predictable. I mean, 305 00:15:56.919 --> 00:15:59.960 we are in another cycle of great disruption, but I 306 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:04.220 will say this. Anybody who spends 10 minutes asking Claude 307 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:08.559 or Gemini or any AI agent to search history and 308 00:16:08.580 --> 00:16:11.340 give you a summary of great disruptions. This is not 309 00:16:11.379 --> 00:16:13.960 the first time, it's not our first rodeo, but it's 310 00:16:13.980 --> 00:16:17.480 the first time in the living memory of pretty much 311 00:16:17.539 --> 00:16:20.500 everybody today, right? The last great disruption, I would argue, 312 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:24.879 was the 1920s. That's why I use the roaring 2020s 313 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:31.710 in terms of a confluence of huge changes in technology, society, politics. 314 00:16:31.850 --> 00:16:35.120 It was very, very similar to our era. And And 315 00:16:35.340 --> 00:16:37.610 then there are negative consequences. One of them was the 316 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:40.429 creation of the Soviet Union. I mean, that's what, in 317 00:16:40.450 --> 00:16:44.090 a large measure, helped fuel the, you know, Karl Marx 318 00:16:44.230 --> 00:16:49.049 and the whole socialist framing and the creation of the 319 00:16:49.070 --> 00:16:53.009 Soviet Union was the disruptions that were underway. And I 320 00:16:53.049 --> 00:16:55.419 think if I were a pessimist, I would say I 321 00:16:55.460 --> 00:16:59.879 worry that we're seeing that movie replayed too. 322 00:17:01.100 --> 00:17:04.299 Mark, have you been surprised, as I have, at how 323 00:17:04.579 --> 00:17:08.730 rapidly the opposition to data centers has congealed, and in 324 00:17:08.769 --> 00:17:11.029 a bipartisan way? I mean, I'm having flashbacks to the 325 00:17:11.089 --> 00:17:14.380 anti-nuclear movements of the 70s, which... And maybe my memory 326 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:16.220 is faulty, but it seemed like it took longer to 327 00:17:16.259 --> 00:17:18.440 take hold. It was mostly on the left, although it 328 00:17:18.549 --> 00:17:23.390 easily combined with old-fashioned middle-class nimbyism. And this has gone 329 00:17:23.490 --> 00:17:27.089 from zero to 60 in a tenth of the time 330 00:17:27.130 --> 00:17:31.029 the anti-nuclear movement did. And so I'm totally shocked. And 331 00:17:31.049 --> 00:17:33.839 you can see all the Republican politicians like Governor Abbott 332 00:17:33.859 --> 00:17:36.289 in Texas. lining up to say, oh, wait a minute, 333 00:17:36.329 --> 00:17:38.529 and this looks very bad to me. I mean, here's 334 00:17:38.589 --> 00:17:41.109 where I think Trump is right to say, if we 335 00:17:41.150 --> 00:17:43.710 want to be, you know, poor and behind the curve, 336 00:17:44.410 --> 00:17:47.579 let's block data centers. But so were you surprised at this? 337 00:17:48.259 --> 00:17:50.460 So you already triggered a lot of people by using 338 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:55.500 the phrase, I think Trump is right. So let's just, 339 00:17:55.960 --> 00:18:01.900 let's leave that particular rabbit hole alone for a the 340 00:18:01.940 --> 00:18:04.799 importance of data center infrastructure are right. It is critical. 341 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:08.380 It is a structural shift in our economy with all 342 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:10.339 the things that animate people to be worried. And a 343 00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:12.599 lot of people have good reason to be worried about things. 344 00:18:12.660 --> 00:18:17.039 I mean, you know, that old saying, you may be paranoid, 345 00:18:17.059 --> 00:18:18.500 but the bullets are real. I mean, there are some 346 00:18:18.539 --> 00:18:21.339 people whose jobs are a threat, for sure. The jobs 347 00:18:21.380 --> 00:18:27.470 apocalypse narrative is demonstrably bunk, but there are people who 348 00:18:27.490 --> 00:18:29.869 will be negatively affected. You build big industrial facilities, and 349 00:18:29.890 --> 00:18:33.180 that's what a data center is. Jensen and Wine likes 350 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:38.710 to use the expression AI factory. And it's actually a 351 00:18:38.730 --> 00:18:41.089 pretty good framing. It's a better framing than data center 352 00:18:41.869 --> 00:18:44.990 because there's a distinction between data centers that do AI 353 00:18:45.009 --> 00:18:47.049 and data centers that do what we're doing, which is 354 00:18:47.549 --> 00:18:51.930 record videos or buy things or shop or keep medical records. 355 00:18:52.450 --> 00:18:57.150 And that data management, that data processing is, as we 356 00:18:57.210 --> 00:18:59.950 all know, having tried AI, really different than using an 357 00:19:00.009 --> 00:19:04.410 AI agent to answer a question. But I am like you. 358 00:19:04.430 --> 00:19:09.799 I've used the analogy about the nuclear opposition deliberately because 359 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:14.640 you and I are of a certain age. And as 360 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:17.319 a young man, I was at the accident at Three 361 00:19:17.339 --> 00:19:19.960 Mile Island during the week of the accident and then 362 00:19:20.019 --> 00:19:22.559 spent the next, I guess, seven years of my life 363 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:27.700 defending the virtues of nuclear energy. Obviously, unsuccessfully because the 364 00:19:27.740 --> 00:19:31.220 crazies killed the industry. The architecture of the debate is 365 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:35.599 very similar. Apocalyptic fears, big utilities. There was a time 366 00:19:35.619 --> 00:19:38.240 when the left hated big utilities. Now they love them 367 00:19:38.259 --> 00:19:43.170 because they successfully co-opted them, basically. But they won that battle. 368 00:19:43.509 --> 00:19:46.630 They got to own them intellectually, if you like. And 369 00:19:46.690 --> 00:19:49.250 even to some extent legally by the mandates that are 370 00:19:49.529 --> 00:19:52.819 forced on. many utilities yeah but it is a little 371 00:19:52.970 --> 00:19:54.910 it is definitely faster i think i think the reason 372 00:19:54.970 --> 00:19:58.400 it's faster is that they they uh are it's the 373 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:01.900 same people and organizations many of them and they honed 374 00:20:01.940 --> 00:20:05.160 their skills they honed the the techniques uh and the 375 00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:08.079 nuclear debates and so it was pretty fast then i 376 00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:10.250 mean i i When I came to the United States 377 00:20:10.369 --> 00:20:14.470 before Three Mile Island, nuclear energy was still very popular 378 00:20:14.490 --> 00:20:18.789 in a bipartisan way. It was the future, beating swords 379 00:20:18.809 --> 00:20:24.059 to plowshares, the peaceful atom, all this stuff. Nixon predicted 1,000 380 00:20:24.059 --> 00:20:26.619 reactors in reaction to the oil embargo of 1973 by 381 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:29.259 the year 2000. We got to 100. 382 00:20:29.259 --> 00:20:34.500 It's close. Well, not bad for government work, yeah. 383 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:38.579 But it is– It makes one suspicious. There's more to it. 384 00:20:39.109 --> 00:20:43.410 And I think the more to it is partly it's 385 00:20:43.490 --> 00:20:46.420 being fed by anxiety about what AI and social media, 386 00:20:46.460 --> 00:20:49.480 all that, and the antipathy, if not hate, for big 387 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:53.200 tech and the coastal elites that's feeding into it. I 388 00:20:53.259 --> 00:20:56.059 have no doubt, I think, Elon Musk's research team on 389 00:20:56.180 --> 00:21:01.930 Exit reported hundreds of thousands of Chinese chatbots maliciously reinforcing 390 00:21:01.970 --> 00:21:04.809 negative stories on social media. I have no doubt that 391 00:21:04.849 --> 00:21:05.390 they're meddling. 392 00:21:05.410 --> 00:21:05.609 Okay. 393 00:21:05.950 --> 00:21:09.819 I mean, look, you'd be profoundly naive to think that Russia, 394 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:14.160 Iran and China are not meddling in our politics and 395 00:21:14.259 --> 00:21:18.619 trying to animate discord. Similarly, when you build really big 396 00:21:18.660 --> 00:21:21.740 things near places where people haven't had big things built before, 397 00:21:22.650 --> 00:21:26.730 for which the benefits are generally remote, except for tax reductions. 398 00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:30.200 you get a lot of NIMBY. That's the nature of 399 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:31.109 the beast. 400 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:36.450 One other question to one particular aspect of this. I 401 00:21:36.490 --> 00:21:38.769