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Speaker 9: Lock Holabia, You are now listening to True Murder, The
Speaker 9: most shocked Killers in True crime History and the authors
Speaker 9: that have written about them Gaesi Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker
Speaker 9: d t K.
Speaker 5: Every week, another fascinating author talking.
Speaker 9: About the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history.
Speaker 9: True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. Stephen Williams is a writer and investigative journalist.
Speaker 5: His reputation was solidified by the continuing success of two books,
Speaker 5: Invisible Darkness, The Horrifying Case of Paul Bernardo and Karla
Speaker 5: Hamulka and Carla A Pact with the Devil, which were
Speaker 5: critically acclaimed as apocalyptic stories set in landscapes of suburban deviance.
Speaker 5: His nonfiction work has been compared to that of Norman
Speaker 5: Mahler and Truman Capoti. It even has been twice arrested
Speaker 5: to do with his writing, once in nineteen ninety eight
Speaker 5: and again in two thousand and three, criminally charged with
Speaker 5: over one hundred counts of disobeying court orders and publication
Speaker 5: bans twice, but on trial over an eight year period
Speaker 5: between nineteen ninety eight and two thousand and five, and
Speaker 5: twice exonerated. The Attorney General, Michael Bryant, also sued Williams
Speaker 5: in two thousand and three as an enemy of the state,
Speaker 5: alleging he was in possession of sensitive court documents. The
Speaker 5: lawsuits sought unspecified damages and the seizure of William's research
Speaker 5: and archives. Although the courts and police seized his computers
Speaker 5: and files, the lawsuit did not succeed. The dimension of
Speaker 5: these attacks on a writer are unusual even in totalitarian regimes,
Speaker 5: but in democratic countries like Canada and the United States,
Speaker 5: they are outrageous and speak to an ugly streak of
Speaker 5: sublimated totalitarianism. These events not only turned the writer into
Speaker 5: a prominent character in the stories he was documenting too
Speaker 5: well for the authorities like but we're also vile attempts
Speaker 5: to denigrate that work and controversialize and even criminalize him.
Speaker 5: In recognition of saying, Stephen was given the Hellman Hammet
Speaker 5: Award by the Human Rights Watch. The award is presented
Speaker 5: annually to journalists who have been prosecuted by tutalitarian regimes
Speaker 5: such as China and Iran. A book that we are
Speaker 5: featuring this evening is Invisible Darkness with my special guest,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Stephen Williams. Welcome back to the program,
Speaker 5: and thank you very much for greing to this interview.
Speaker 5: Stephen Williams, nice to hear from you, Dan, Thank you
Speaker 5: for returning to discuss Invisible Darkness again, the true crime classic,
Speaker 5: and our audience will find out why. Let's start because
Speaker 5: we have this introduction that really I think will be
Speaker 5: a surprise to our American and international audience. I'll tell
Speaker 5: our audience where you were in your career when you
Speaker 5: heard about the arrest of Paul Bernardo, And when did
Speaker 5: you decide or we're enlisted to write about this case
Speaker 5: and become inextricably involved in this fified case of paulvin
Speaker 5: Iland color Homoka tell us about that.
Speaker 8: Actually, it was a winter, very ugly winter up in
Speaker 8: the country, and I was sitting at my desk on
Speaker 8: a Sunday afternoon and thinking that my life wasn't going
Speaker 8: quite the way I wanted to go. I'd been working
Speaker 8: in the advertising and public relations, even though I'd written
Speaker 8: a dozen or fifteen feature magazine pieces, and then gotten
Speaker 8: distracted by the pursuit of money and capital of prestige,
Speaker 8: and thinking that it was time that I focused on
Speaker 8: something different. And I was going through a number of
Speaker 8: newspapers when I want. I used to collect the papers
Speaker 8: and I look at them on a Sunday when I
Speaker 8: noticed an article in a tabloid newspaper, very long for
Speaker 8: a tabloid journal, A four five folio page described arrest
Speaker 8: to Paul Bnardo in Saint Catharines, Ontario, which is very
Speaker 8: close to the American border. It's about a ten minute
Speaker 8: drive from Niagara Falls, both Canadian and Americans, and a
Speaker 8: sort of depressed town because it was reliant on the
Speaker 8: auto industry, and that was in some disarray at that point,
Speaker 8: and the idea that this sort of you know, well
Speaker 8: educated accountant person had been arrested suddenly in Saint Catharine's
Speaker 8: for at that point, all that was no one was
Speaker 8: that he was being arrested for the Scarborough rapes, a
Speaker 8: series of rapes that started in nineteen eighty seven and
Speaker 8: included in the early nineteen nineties that he was being
Speaker 8: arrested for. Most in the bottom parts of the article,
Speaker 8: it described the fact that he lived in Saint Catherine's
Speaker 8: with his young wife, who was a veterinary clinic assistant
Speaker 8: in you know, native of Saint catherine'es. And I thought
Speaker 8: to myself, there's something wrong with this situation. There's being
Speaker 8: wrong with this scenario. Serial rapists are very rare at
Speaker 8: any rate in criminal history. But the idea that this
Speaker 8: guy was down there living with a young, attractive woman
Speaker 8: and was in fact married to her. And I just
Speaker 8: decided to write a note to half a dozen publishers
Speaker 8: that I knew, saying, you know, the real question here
Speaker 8: is what was this woman doing while this man was
Speaker 8: out raping and pillaging?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 8: The real question to be answered is that question. It
Speaker 8: was about a paragraph or maybe a paragraph and a half,
Speaker 8: the shortest thing I think I've ever written, and because
Speaker 8: that really struck me, so I sent it out to
Speaker 8: a half a dozen publishers. This is a Sunday afternoon
Speaker 8: in those days, by facts, and on Monday I had
Speaker 8: three authors do a book, plus an offer from an
Speaker 8: international publisher who said that we would do things to
Speaker 8: make sure that we got an American and the English deal.
Speaker 8: So that's how it started. I was reading some newspapers
Speaker 8: on a dark winter afternoon up in the country, and
Speaker 8: there you go. The one thing to make clear is
Speaker 8: that there were two or three other newspaper people who
Speaker 8: did books on the case eventually, but no one had
Speaker 8: ever asked a question about the woman, and I didn't
Speaker 8: know what the situation was with her, or if there
Speaker 8: even was a situation.
Speaker 5: Let's start with because we can't go right to the beginning,
Speaker 5: and a lot of most people have a really good
Speaker 5: sort of famework of what this story is about, but
Speaker 5: of course your book goes much much further. Let's talk
Speaker 5: about the situation with Vince Bevan at the same time,
Speaker 5: the Scarborough rapist, as you said, he was on the
Speaker 5: loose from eighty seven till ninety four nineties. So let's
Speaker 5: talk about the situation in what we call the GTA,
Speaker 5: the Greater Toronto area now about six million people or so,
Speaker 5: and we talked about You've mentioned the Saint Catherines are
Speaker 5: a little small place outside of Toronto near Nagara Falls.
Speaker 5: So let's talk about the Green Ribbon Task Force that's
Speaker 5: assembled at the same time that Vince Bevan is in
Speaker 5: Saint Catharines.
Speaker 8: Right. Saint Catherines even then was sort of a bedroom
Speaker 8: community to Toronto, and that's how it's located geographically. A
Speaker 8: great number of people that lived in the nicer parts
Speaker 8: of Niagara on the lake where the Shaw Festival is
Speaker 8: very close to Saint Catherines. A great number of people
Speaker 8: commuted to Toronto or were ex Frontonians living in the
Speaker 8: nice area of the Nagare Parks and Niagara Falls, all
Speaker 8: that sort of thing. The interesting thing about Vince Bevan,
Speaker 8: who was eventually made the head they're the chief of
Speaker 8: the Green Ribbon Task Force, the task force that they
Speaker 8: established to look into what became multiple strange sexual homicides,
Speaker 8: was basically a hometown boy from that area whose father
Speaker 8: had been a policeman and basically a policeman's son from
Speaker 8: a policing family who was one of the few guys
Speaker 8: who had gotten an education and actually had a university
Speaker 8: degree and had sort of become involved with information technology it,
Speaker 8: you know, and police applications for it. And somehow over
Speaker 8: a period of some months, because the soul was a mystery,
Speaker 8: they didn't apprehend Lenardo immediately. The story goes back to
Speaker 8: even years where he was free and inexplicably free, and
Speaker 8: the MAgric Regional Police where Vince Bebin was employed, were
Speaker 8: not getting anywhere, etc. But at this point end time
Speaker 8: when he was arrested, he had been made the head
Speaker 8: of the Green Ribbon Task Force, which was a task
Speaker 8: force that refused to have anybody from the Toronto Police
Speaker 8: Force involved. The Green Ribbon Task Force was formed from
Speaker 8: a series of smaller police forces in and around the
Speaker 8: region Hamilton, Burlington, Peel, whatever. But the Toronto Police Force,
Speaker 8: who were the people who actually identified Lenardo as a rapist,
Speaker 8: would refuse to have anything to do with this task
Speaker 8: force that was formed under Vince Babin.
Speaker 12: You have a regional task.
Speaker 8: Force that is and thickly set up against the major
Speaker 8: police forts in the whole region, which is the Toronto
Speaker 8: Police Force. It's like setting the New York Police Force
Speaker 8: against you know, the force in New Jersey or Connecticut
Speaker 8: or something. Right, Sure, so you've got this guy hang
Speaker 8: up a task force that has twelve or fourteen different
Speaker 8: police force members working in the task force. It's in
Speaker 8: an antithesis to the force that's actually caught the forensic
Speaker 8: evidence that brought Bernardo to their attention.
Speaker 5: Finally, now let's talk about Bernardo is questioned. And so
Speaker 5: let's go back to when Bernardo is questioned, not arrested,
Speaker 5: but questioned. Who does the questioning, What do they ask him,
Speaker 5: what do they get from him? And then what is
Speaker 5: his reaction and the conversation with Carla, because I think, well,
Speaker 5: we know that is important in this story.
Speaker 8: Well, it's certainly interesting prior to his arrest, which if
Speaker 8: I'm not mistaken, it's a long time ago. I mean
Speaker 8: it was prior to the oj Simpson trial in nineteen
Speaker 8: ninety five, so I think it was in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 8: But prior to Bernardo's arrest, he was interviewed once as
Speaker 8: in Toronto Police way back in nineteen ninety and the
Speaker 8: Toronto police that interviewed them. They were interviewing on the
Speaker 8: basis that he resembled composite sketch of the Scarborough rapist.
Speaker 8: He had been raping women in Toronto, and that interviewed
Speaker 8: him for a number of reasons, partly because he was
Speaker 8: a character very much liked the detectives who interviewed him.
Speaker 8: He was about their age in Toronto. These two detectives
Speaker 8: interviewed in both were university educated. That happened in Toronto.
Speaker 8: They were young, they're very good looking, attractive guy, and
Speaker 8: when they sat down to interview Bernardo, they had nothing
Speaker 8: except a few people saying he looked like a composite drawing,
Speaker 8: and when they looked at him, they thought, well, he
Speaker 8: looks just like us. So no one Tenna went up.
Speaker 8: And the problem was, in those days, DA testing was
Speaker 8: a prolonged issue, and they had hundreds of samples from
Speaker 8: various rapes and murders and whatnot in the forensic center
Speaker 8: at the Toronto Police Force. And since these guys didn't
Speaker 8: have a feeling about this guy, the old samples they
Speaker 8: had continued to sit on there on the shelf and
Speaker 8: the lab. In the meantime, Bernardo walks away from this scenario,
Speaker 8: thinking that he's invincible because clearly there's nothing going to happen.
Speaker 5: He goes down.
Speaker 8: At this point, he has a relationship with Carla in
Speaker 8: Saint Catherines. He's still living with his parents in Scarborough.
Speaker 8: He goes down to Saint Catherines and tells Carla that
Speaker 8: he's the Scarborough rapist. Basically tells her that he's a
Speaker 8: Scarborough rapist and they've just interviewed and it was as
Speaker 8: hysterical about it, whatnot, and this and that, as does
Speaker 8: a coroner. So the sister's death is world accidental.
Speaker 13: Or death by victation caused by you know, vomiting. So
Speaker 13: now you have a man who has committed a half
Speaker 13: a dozen, maybe eight or nine rapes in Scarborough, gotten
Speaker 13: away with it, at least just the way he sees it.
Speaker 13: Decided to move into his fiance in quotes house with
Speaker 13: her parents and with her help, successfully rape her younger sister.
Speaker 13: Except it wasn't that successful.
Speaker 8: Given she died and now they're in a house is hysterical.
Speaker 8: Paul and Carlo decide to move out because the parents,
Speaker 8: naturally grieving and hysterical, decide that it's not the appropriate
Speaker 8: time for them to be married, but they're not having
Speaker 8: any of that. So they move out and they rent
Speaker 8: a house in a high end area of Agara Falls
Speaker 8: region down there and a sort of suburban area right
Speaker 8: on Lake Ontario called Port Dulusi. They rent a house
Speaker 8: there and then they continue on their way.
Speaker 5: Now, for those people that are shocked by the rape,
Speaker 5: wedding present, Christmas present for Paul Bernardo, we're doing this
Speaker 5: out of order, but because this discovery doesn't happen to
Speaker 5: much much later, and so tell us what was their
Speaker 5: plan after Tammy had been accidentally killed? They've gotten away
Speaker 5: with it, but what is their plan after it? What
Speaker 5: do these two people cook up? And and you can
Speaker 5: go through what they did in the Indian and Tammy's
Speaker 5: room with Tammy's clothing videotaping. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: about that before we talk about Jane Doe.
Speaker 8: First of all, there's arguments to be made that Tammy
Speaker 8: Lynn's death was at least second degree murder. There's arguments
Speaker 8: to be made that neither of them intended her to die,
Speaker 8: But there's also a very strong legal argument could be
Speaker 8: made that they knew enough that their actions would produce death,
Speaker 8: so therefore it would be at least second degree murder.
Speaker 8: But that's besides the point, because they got got away
Speaker 8: with that. The next project is that it's very hard
Speaker 8: to describe a lot of people in Hollywood and in
Speaker 8: television have had very great difficulty sort of even comprehending
Speaker 8: the aspect of the story. She decides her parents aren't worthy,
Speaker 8: they don't care about her enough, and she decides she'll
Speaker 8: move in with Bernardo in this sort of pink Cape
Speaker 8: cod style house in Port de Lucy on the water.
Speaker 8: And actually I even have lost track of what came
Speaker 8: first and what came second, but certainly one of the
Speaker 8: next things that happened in the period of time that
Speaker 8: they were planning their wedding, which they were deeply engrossed
Speaker 8: in for a period of about four months. This incident,
Speaker 8: Tammy Lynn's murder, happened in December nineteen ninety and by
Speaker 8: end of April, if I'm not mistaken, they were married
Speaker 8: in Port Dalusi in a old church and whatnot. But
Speaker 8: in between, Paul Bernardo did a young teenage girl in
Speaker 8: Burlington while he was out for license plates to steal
Speaker 8: and brought her home. Her name was Leslie Mahoff fifteen
Speaker 8: year old normal schoolgirl in Burlington, Ontario, and brought her
Speaker 8: back to this house they had in Port de Lucy,
Speaker 8: and for about a three day period, both he and
Speaker 8: Carla sexually assaulted Leslie and then murdered her. So that happens,
Speaker 8: and they dismember her body in the basement, put her
Speaker 8: body part in case them in cement, and dump a
Speaker 8: reservoir that feeds the Saint Catharine's called Lake Gibson, and
Speaker 8: go off to their wedding. And on the very day
Speaker 8: that they're being wed in a sort of white horse
Speaker 8: drawn carriage deal which includes one hundred of their closest
Speaker 8: friends and family, at a quite lavish sit down dinner
Speaker 8: at the Queen's Landing, which in Nagron Lakes, lovely hotel
Speaker 8: that many Americans were aware of. And during that very moment,
Speaker 8: the body parts are discovered in Lake Gibson by a fisherman.
Speaker 8: Because Bernardo had been responsible for making sure that they
Speaker 8: had bought to put the body parts in needed time
Speaker 8: to coll as, and he didn't give it enough time,
Speaker 8: so a couple of the lids that contained these body
Speaker 8: parts separated in the water of Lake Gibson, and neither
Speaker 8: of them had done enough research into the Lake Gibson
Speaker 8: and how it worked reservoir, you know, raise it and
Speaker 8: go down according to the usage. Some of these cement
Speaker 8: blocks in which the body parts were based were close
Speaker 8: and they separated and the fishermen found them. So the
Speaker 8: police came and found these body parts of someone they
Speaker 8: weren't even sure it was missing in you know, on
Speaker 8: the shores of Lake Gibson. So by the time the
Speaker 8: police figure out who the girl is, of course, there
Speaker 8: are a number of missing girls around the one hundred
Speaker 8: mile radius they figure out it. Leslie Mahaffi, Bernardo and
Speaker 8: Homolka have already gone on their honeymoon to Hawaii and
Speaker 8: come back. So now we're at the stage where both
Speaker 8: of them think that they're uncatchable and invincible because nobody
Speaker 8: seems to know anything about what might have happened this
Speaker 8: poor girl. Leslie Mahaffy hemy Lynn situation is behind everybody,
Speaker 8: and now they're just living in this lovely house in
Speaker 8: Port de Lucy coming back from their honeymo very bizarre situation.
Speaker 5: Tell us about the abduction of Christian French and Carla's
Speaker 5: participation in that.
Speaker 8: Well, should we mentioned the fact that there's been Doe
Speaker 8: between that abduction, and I mean, we probably should bring
Speaker 8: Jane Doe in this. Absolutely the woman knowing is the
Speaker 8: young woman known as Jane Doe, because this is an
Speaker 8: astounding sort of fact in the story that shortly shortly
Speaker 8: after they returned from their honeymoon. Actually, you know what,
Speaker 8: I think, I think that Jane Doe factored in before
Speaker 8: Leslie Mahafi was kidnamed. I think I somehow remember that
Speaker 8: Bernardo asserted that Mahaffi was reciprocal, sort of reciprocal gift
Speaker 8: for Jane Doe. But regardless, it's all in my book
Speaker 8: and very I knew detail. At some point in this
Speaker 8: incredible insanity, Carla decides that she needs to do something
Speaker 8: for Paul, something special for Paul, and she lures a
Speaker 8: young girl that she'd met at the veterinary clinic and
Speaker 8: the pet shop she used to work at, who also
Speaker 8: is fifteen and strangely looks very much like Tammy Lynn,
Speaker 8: her sister, dead sister. She lures her over to this
Speaker 8: house in Porteluci one evening and does to her exactly
Speaker 8: what she did to her sister, so that Paul could
Speaker 8: rate her sister with impunity, and that is she got
Speaker 8: more hal athane from the veterinary clinic and esthetic, which
Speaker 8: she well knew was very dangerous to use with anyone
Speaker 8: who had eaten anything or drunk anything, or at any
Speaker 8: other suppressants or tranquilizer. So whatever, she got exactly the
Speaker 8: same drug and used exactly the same pills. It was
Speaker 8: helthane and the tamazepam or something a strong sedative. And
Speaker 8: she put Jane Doe down in their new house in
Speaker 8: Port Dealusia and called her husband on the phone that said,
Speaker 8: come home, dear, I have a present for you. And
Speaker 8: so they came home. And the other thing that I
Speaker 8: haven't mentioned is the video taped to all of this.
Speaker 8: They video taped tmmy Lyn. And now he comes home
Speaker 8: and finds her with fifteen year old you know, and
Speaker 8: the two of the rape and assault Jane Doe and
Speaker 8: videotape the thing and this particulation. I think's pre dates
Speaker 8: there they're going on the honeymoon, because I think it's
Speaker 8: months after the death. It's less than six months to
Speaker 8: the death of emy Lynn and just a bit before
Speaker 8: Leslie Mahaffey is murdered. And so Jane Do doesn't die.
Speaker 8: She's fine, she's sick for codation wonders up, and then
Speaker 8: they go get married and they go on their honeymoon
Speaker 8: to Hawaii, comeback. There's no consequences from anything that they've done,
Speaker 8: and time goes by, Paul restless, Carla goes and recruits
Speaker 8: Ame Doe again, and a kind of relationship between the
Speaker 8: three of them develops that last brought the summer of
Speaker 8: ninety one, whereby Paul and Carla keep encouraging Jane Doe
Speaker 8: to have relationships with him, but she won't any further
Speaker 8: than giving Paul oral sex. So eventually they both get
Speaker 8: very frustrated and they actually put her down again the
Speaker 8: same way they did the first time before they're married,
Speaker 8: before the honeymoon, and this time Carlo perceives that Jane
Speaker 8: Doe stops breathing and calls nine one on the way
Speaker 8: she grew Tammy Lynn, but then calls them right back
Speaker 8: and says she's fine. So also learned no problem and
Speaker 8: no one fallows up on this, and so that incident passes.
Speaker 8: Jane Don't walks away finally from this bizarre household and survives,
Speaker 8: and nineteen ninety two, the two of them decide that
Speaker 8: they need to find a new sex slave, and they
Speaker 8: plot to go out and kidnap a school girl Saint
Speaker 8: Captain's School, and that's when Christian French.
Speaker 5: Is Christian French is abducted by the couple and how
Speaker 5: do they what's different or similar with what they're doing
Speaker 5: with Christian French.
Speaker 8: A lot of water has gone under the bridge tace time.
Speaker 8: It's April nineteen ninety two, and the collusion because a
Speaker 8: lot of stuff has gone down between these two and
Speaker 8: tench is building and you know, things aren't perfect point
Speaker 8: she decides that it's imperative for her to assist him
Speaker 8: and calm him down because he's getting a bit disassociated.
Speaker 8: And they had to plot to kidnap an a schoolgirl.
Speaker 8: And they go out on the street on a very
Speaker 8: nice afternoon, the Easter weekend, and they go cruising looking
Speaker 8: for someone to kidnap, and they see Christian French walking
Speaker 8: home from school. Her walk home from school, it's about
Speaker 8: five minutes. They pull off in a church parking lot
Speaker 8: and pretend that they're looking for directions, something that's happens
Speaker 8: very very frequently in Saint Catherine's because of the way
Speaker 8: in which the city has been designed. And they work
Speaker 8: her heart and they kidnap her right in broad daylight
Speaker 8: and take her basically five or six minutes back to
Speaker 8: their house in Port Lousey and proceed to rape and
Speaker 8: over the Easter weekend.
Speaker 5: Now, let's fast forward a little bit, because we're just
Speaker 5: Carla Hamalka gets the bright idea that the gig is up.
Speaker 5: What prompts her she's contacted by police. Let's get to
Speaker 5: that point. Let's fast forward to that point where she
Speaker 5: is contacted and makes the smartest decision of her life.
Speaker 5: Tell us what prompts this questioning of Carla, and what
Speaker 5: do the police say at that point and what does
Speaker 5: she do in reaction to that interview that questioning?
Speaker 8: Right, the problem with this story is more Froz and
Speaker 8: probably French. She has killed, things are done. She's dump
Speaker 8: in a gully very close on a back road, very
Speaker 8: close to the necessary where Leslie Maffi has been, the
Speaker 8: first victim has been, the second victim has been buried.
Speaker 8: And that Christmas in nineteen ninety two, somehow mister Bernardo
Speaker 8: was and he hits Carla with a one of those
Speaker 8: black steel flashlight to such an extent that her mother
Speaker 8: and other people realize that she's you know, she's in
Speaker 8: some kind of progression, and it's decides that she will
Speaker 8: leave bernardo household and she will go to her uncle's
Speaker 8: place and live in Brampton, and everything will be forgotten
Speaker 8: and everything will be fine. At least that's what's in
Speaker 8: her mind. There's no background of battery or record of
Speaker 8: any kind of problem in their marriage up to this
Speaker 8: particularly moment in nineteen ninety two, after French is dead
Speaker 8: and things have gone haven't gone awry. Actually, nothing's happened
Speaker 8: to implicate anybody. They're none the wiser. But he dissembles,
Speaker 8: he's not problematic figure, he has no tolerance. Obviously crazy,
Speaker 8: but not legally so. And he hits her one night,
Speaker 8: and that's their relationship. In other words, the first thing
Speaker 8: she doubt, she said, is leak, and she goes up
Speaker 8: to live with her aunt and uncle in Brampton. In
Speaker 8: the meantime, the Metropolitan Toronto Police, the police who have
Speaker 8: not been in the Green Ribbon Task Force that was
Speaker 8: formed under Vince Bevin and has all this time VI
Speaker 8: investigated unsuccessfully and has twice interviewed Paul Bernardo and cleared him,
Speaker 8: as had the Toronto Police through and the Scarborough rape investigation,
Speaker 8: Toronto Police and the forensic lab in Toronto identify Bernardo
Speaker 8: as the man who is raped free of the twelve
Speaker 8: fourteen victims of the Garborough rapists. Right, so they they
Speaker 8: have this is the definitive moment for the Toronto police.
Speaker 8: They finally hold the case. They got the guy and
Speaker 8: down to Saint Catherine's and put him under surveillance and
Speaker 8: decide they're going to arrest him in very short order.
Speaker 8: But of course do this have to trade general for
Speaker 8: the state in Canada. The state is the province. The
Speaker 8: police in Toronto, like the police from New York, decide
Speaker 8: that they're going to go into a place New Jersey,
Speaker 8: and they're going to take somebody out from under the
Speaker 8: New Jersey police and rest them and take them back
Speaker 8: to New York to prosecute. Well, that isn't going to happen,
Speaker 8: and that the Trade General insists that the prosecution the
Speaker 8: people involved in those decisions exists. That they put Bernardo
Speaker 8: under surveillance and decide what to do, and time evolves.
Speaker 8: In the meantime, Carla has left town and gone up
Speaker 8: to live in another small urban suburban development with her
Speaker 8: aunt and uncle about an hour and a half away
Speaker 8: from this place. So the Metropolitan Drown Police are very,
Speaker 8: very eager just to erect in. Never mind all of
Speaker 8: this political constance about jurisdiction and whatnot. But Bevan and
Speaker 8: the Green Ribbon Task Force, the local people that have
Speaker 8: been charged with this, consistent that this is their caller
Speaker 8: that they need to get in. So there's a political
Speaker 8: issue involved here that's impossible to talk about. The bottom
Speaker 8: line is, as the Metropolitan Toronto Police are being held out,
Speaker 8: they decide that part of their job would be to
Speaker 8: go and interview his estranged wife, which they do. They
Speaker 8: find her up in this suburb and they go up
Speaker 8: and interview her. Carla doesn't say anything to them about
Speaker 8: what actually has gone on. She doesn't confess, she doesn't
Speaker 8: do anything. But what she does realize is that she
Speaker 8: could be in deep shit. So they come up to
Speaker 8: visit her, and she talks to them, and in the
Speaker 8: process of talking with them, realizes that there's a problem here.
Speaker 8: These people have Actually they're actually onto himvolved in these murders.
Speaker 8: And that's good for her because all she wanted to
Speaker 8: do is forget about all this stuff her mind. She
Speaker 8: just made a mistake. She buried the wrong man, so
Speaker 8: instead of coming clean with Toronto police, she shut and
Speaker 8: jives and the moment they leave, she phones a lawyer
Speaker 8: in Niagara Falls and happens to be a very prominent lawyer,
Speaker 8: perhaps the most senior lawyer in that area, who does
Speaker 8: nothing but criminal law. She knows this man because his
Speaker 8: wife brings their dalmatians to the vet clinic where she worked,
Speaker 8: So she phones him and the wife organizes for her
Speaker 8: to come down and see his name is George Walker.
Speaker 8: Come down and be George. And she actually has the
Speaker 8: germinity to ask the detectives from Toronto that we're interviewing
Speaker 8: her to drive her to her appointment with George Walker amazing,
Speaker 8: which they do of course. So story that is so complicated,
Speaker 8: although these kinds of stories seem to be in vogue now,
Speaker 8: or how else would he Thrones be in its six
Speaker 8: or how would the Wired have gone for seven? I mean,
Speaker 8: it is extremely complicated and nuanced. But at the root
Speaker 8: of it is the fact that policing it's a bureaucracy.
Speaker 8: It's not an effective, you know, force for security or
Speaker 8: deterrence bureaucracy. The moment that you get in more difficulty
Speaker 8: and more conundrum the moment you start mixing territories.
Speaker 6: And Hi, I'm far Mohammed, host of Canadian Immigrants upcoming
Speaker 6: podcast First Generation.
Speaker 4: And Hello, I'm Ramya ramad An editor of Canadian Immigrant.
Speaker 6: In this series, I'll be sitting down with Canadian immigrants,
Speaker 6: each with their own unique story to hear about their journey.
Speaker 6: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you can listen
Speaker 6: to new episodes as soon as they're released. First Generation
Speaker 6: is brought to you by ms Rahi Developments, the award
Speaker 6: winning company that's redrawing Toronto Skyline.
Speaker 7: An Espresso virtuo exceptional coffee at the simple touch of
Speaker 7: a button, a coffee to enjoy, to savor and to
Speaker 7: share all day and every day. Virtuo standards are meant
Speaker 7: to be broken.
Speaker 8: Espresso. What else that's strict and police and of course
Speaker 8: the ministry of the the attorney generals of the prosecutor's office,
Speaker 8: whatever they're called, the various draidations in the ats or
Speaker 8: hear you bring those guys in and they have their agendas.
Speaker 8: So the bottom line is Carla goes down to this
Speaker 8: lawyer's office and from that moment in time, unstill the
Speaker 8: moment he walks into a court room to be given
Speaker 8: a twelve year sentence, not for sex crimes, not for murder,
Speaker 8: but for two counts of manslaughter. Enough happens, and Baard's
Speaker 8: arrested by the Green Ribbon Task Force and Vince Bevin
Speaker 8: and of course charged only with the murders of les
Speaker 8: Imahafi and Christian French. And basically that's what Invisible Darts documents.
Speaker 8: Rather very traditional true crime story that follows all of
Speaker 8: the characters, whether they're perpetrators, they're victims, or the very
Speaker 8: many vestating bullet in the Expert Witnesses program, the psychiatrists
Speaker 8: and the psychologists, the lawyers and the judges, the senior police,
Speaker 8: senior media. It's just an epic story of a disaster.
Speaker 5: One thing we didn't touch on when we talked about
Speaker 5: Carla pack with the Devil, and it's interesting as well
Speaker 5: because it's one of the most fascinating cases ever written
Speaker 5: about is perfect victim. And I interviewed Carla Norton earlier
Speaker 5: this year about the incredible book The True Story of
Speaker 5: the Girl in the Box and the compliant victim of
Speaker 5: a sexual status. So please explain this because this is
Speaker 5: a cornerstone for this book. It's a cornerstone to understand
Speaker 5: a little bit about the perfect victim story and how
Speaker 5: important that story is to this story.
Speaker 8: That's a very interesting point because the compliant victim of
Speaker 8: sexual to say that is a fiction that the FBI
Speaker 8: profilers out of chronicle, manufactured.
Speaker 12: Out of whole cloth.
Speaker 8: And the basic idea is that there are certain women
Speaker 8: who are susceptible to sexual say this to such an
Speaker 8: extent that they marry them and then do their bidding.
Speaker 8: And this was very much a part of the government here,
Speaker 8: the prosecutor's opposite and the government very much part of
Speaker 8: their explanation, rationalization for letting Carla literally away with murder
Speaker 8: and grotesque murder, not just oh, I inadvertently murdered my
Speaker 8: aunt because it was mad at her. All of these girls,
Speaker 8: with the exception of her sister, who is totally inexplicable,
Speaker 8: were strangers. There's no solace or no explanation in the idea.
Speaker 8: You know, the fact she was a battered woman and
Speaker 8: acting out of the battered woman's syndrome and therefore couldn't
Speaker 8: leave him or anything. The fact is Carla, the moment
Speaker 8: she was hit first, the first time she was hit,
Speaker 8: she left the marriage. That's totally anesthetical to the diagnosis
Speaker 8: of a woman with postmatic stress disorder or battered woman's syndrome.
Speaker 8: But the greatest fiction in all of this stuff is
Speaker 8: that there's a certain kind of woman who is very
Speaker 8: susceptible to a sexual Say this, and the anomaly here
Speaker 8: is the compliant victim description, the compliant victim of a
Speaker 8: sexual Say this, and that's what the government decided was
Speaker 8: the best use of a theory in the case of
Speaker 8: Carla Hamulka. It wasn't a question of what Vince Bevan,
Speaker 8: the head of the Green Ribbon Tesk Force, wanted, or
Speaker 8: the much more powerful and larger and confident Metropolitan Toronto
Speaker 8: Police wanted. It was a question of how the government
Speaker 8: was going to deal with the situation that was so
Speaker 8: high profile and so inexplicable that they quite figured out
Speaker 8: a resolution that was going to earn everybody. And then
Speaker 8: somebody brought up this idea. It was then quite a
Speaker 8: new idea of the compliant victim of the sexual stay.
Speaker 8: That's one of the behavioral science. The behavioral hesed to
Speaker 8: call it behavioral science. It's behavioral fiction that comes out
Speaker 8: of Quantica. But those couple of detectives that worked with
Speaker 8: the FBI, Hazelwood, Douglass, who came up with it. I'm
Speaker 8: not sure if Douglass was already gone by that time.
Speaker 8: A guy named Rynane Hazelwood, a few others had come
Speaker 8: up with this theory based on the interviews they conducted.
Speaker 8: The ten or twelve cases that don't have any real
Speaker 8: relationship to the details of this case had come up
Speaker 8: with this theory which had just it hadn't been published.
Speaker 8: It was in I can't remember what the academic journalists
Speaker 8: call it, but it was in review, peer review, and
Speaker 8: it was about to be published. The idea of the
Speaker 8: compliant victim of the sexual say this, this was like
Speaker 8: a God said to our government, really, Vince Bevan and
Speaker 8: the Green Ribbon Task Force, because it gave them an
Speaker 8: explanation whereby they could excuse Carla for stuff that was inexcusable, right,
Speaker 8: they could rationalize inexcusable stuff to show the contrast in
Speaker 8: this trial is that now the government needs this deal,
Speaker 8: they need these facts to align.
Speaker 5: With their theory. Again, this fictional theory you're talking about
Speaker 5: to explain because obviously she doesn't fit into the post PTSD,
Speaker 5: and she certainly doesn't fit into the vatid women syndrome
Speaker 5: by by the definition, by definition itself. Now, what's incredible
Speaker 5: about your book is that you have again factually having
Speaker 5: Carla testify and having and then having Bernardo testify is
Speaker 5: unusual and incredible. As the prosecution witness star witness against Bernardo,
Speaker 5: the defense of Paul Bernardo wants to cross examine Carla
Speaker 5: Hamlca to benefit Paul Bernardo, regardless of the deal. And
Speaker 5: so in a bizarre almost Twilight Zone type scenario where
Speaker 5: the government has their deal and she has basically her immunity,
Speaker 5: she's supposed to tell the truth and we won't get
Speaker 5: into all this memory convenient memory lapses that she has,
Speaker 5: but tell us about what Rosen exposes and by that
Speaker 5: time what everybody in this courtroom basically does know about Carla.
Speaker 7: Well.
Speaker 8: Rosen was Paul Bernardo's lawyer, and the the fact is
Speaker 8: that he didn't believe and no one believed that there
Speaker 8: was any meaningful resolution to happen at this trial or
Speaker 8: any meaningful revelation because as the prosecutor Ernie said a
Speaker 8: dressed to the jury, both these people are guilty at
Speaker 8: first degree murder. And I'm paraphrasing, but believe me, the
Speaker 8: transcripts bear me out. This is the opening to Bernardo
Speaker 8: trial where Carla has been dealt with. She's already serving
Speaker 8: her twelve year sentence and for manslaughter, for two counts
Speaker 8: of manslaughter, but it isn't three counts because that would
Speaker 8: make her a serial offender, so she doesn't. She's not
Speaker 8: on three counts. She's on two counts, ensuing it twelve
Speaker 8: year bit, which would in Canada see her out if
Speaker 8: she really wanted to pursue it in as few as
Speaker 8: five years. And she's now coming back to testify against
Speaker 8: her husband, which is altered of a sort of Dasatian shark,
Speaker 8: you know, insane asylum play that the government is putting
Speaker 8: on for the public. Because the prosecutor says to the
Speaker 8: jury and to the gathered in the courtroom that please
Speaker 8: remember that miss Almalka is not on trial here. She
Speaker 8: is a witness for the prosecution. In fact, they are
Speaker 8: both guilty of first degree murder, but she is a
Speaker 8: prosecution witness who has been given immunion. So that kind
Speaker 8: of trial starts and then for the next four.
Speaker 12: Months, about twenty one days.
Speaker 8: Of which are taken up with Rosen cross examining a
Speaker 8: woman who has nothing to fear from the results of
Speaker 8: the cross examination, bringing about the most amazing descriptions, revelations
Speaker 8: and stuff that you would ever hear in a courtroom
Speaker 8: anywhere in the world. Stunning admissions, but they have no weight,
Speaker 8: they have no meaning, they have no consequence because she's
Speaker 8: already been dealt with. So at the end of this
Speaker 8: and I mean, really, if people are that interested in
Speaker 8: the dynamics of this, they really have to read the books,
Speaker 8: which have the most comprehensive and complicated, but I think
Speaker 8: readable descriptions of everything that goes on in everything that's said.
Speaker 8: But at the end of the trial, as the trial
Speaker 8: is concluding in the summer of nineteen ninety five No J.
Speaker 8: Simpson trials still on, the Bernardo trials concluding on Labor
Speaker 8: Day weekends nineteen ninety five, the prosecutor, the chief prosecutor
Speaker 8: says to the jury end of the court, that doesn't
Speaker 8: matter what Carla Homonka said. It's irrelevant to the conviction
Speaker 8: of Paul Bernardo. Now thing she has said matters, we
Speaker 8: don't care because it's not relevant to the conviction of
Speaker 8: Paul Bernardo in law, He's correct, and in fact that's
Speaker 8: what happened. Bernardo was convicted, Carla went back to jail,
Speaker 8: and now it's the tenth Today, this year is tenth
Speaker 8: anniversary of her release from prison, absolutely free and clear. Yes,
Speaker 8: what do you say.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about because we really haven't talked about this specifically.
Speaker 5: You had these one hundred over one hundred criminal charges,
Speaker 5: accusations of looking at releasing sensitive court documents, information that
Speaker 5: was not allowed, breaking the publication bands. Again, I don't
Speaker 5: want to get you to defend yourself, but what did
Speaker 5: you see? I mean, the court listened to the tapes
Speaker 5: but didn't see the videotapes. What did you see? What
Speaker 5: was so dangerous? On what you saw or what you
Speaker 5: did or what you released? Tell us about that.
Speaker 8: Yeah, nothing I saw released was very dangerous. I mean
Speaker 8: the idea that I saw or released or did anything
Speaker 8: that was dangerous or against the public good is absurd.
Speaker 8: But people are very gullible. So all you have to
Speaker 8: do is be accused of such things. And your neighbors
Speaker 8: is because I've even the police adored that, let alone
Speaker 8: swarm their house and arrest you at gunpoint with ten
Speaker 8: swat team people. Any government in a democratic society would
Speaker 8: behave that way over alleged publication band breaches or court
Speaker 8: order breaches is insane. It doesn't happen in my case
Speaker 8: what they alleged, which was I had seen. When that
Speaker 8: matter came up in one of my trials, one of
Speaker 8: my two trials, the press reacted the fact that the
Speaker 8: Crown admitted like one hundred and sixty two people who
Speaker 8: had actually seen these restricted videotapes. And if the prosecuting
Speaker 8: office admits that the Attorney general were I'm looking for
Speaker 8: common word that's common do in the United States here.
Speaker 8: If the chief prosecutor admits that, how many people actually
Speaker 8: must have seen them? If one hundred and sixty two
Speaker 8: people have seen tapes that are allegedly restricted, how many possible?
Speaker 8: There's probably five hundred who have seen them. Now, the
Speaker 8: point is I actually didn't see these particular tapes because
Speaker 8: there was only about an hour and fifteen minutes of them,
Speaker 8: and they were very specific to a certain format videotape
Speaker 8: associated with this trial. So again, the government in this
Speaker 8: case and the police spent tens of millions of dollars
Speaker 8: and hundreds of thousands of man hours trying to create
Speaker 8: a subterfuge around what they were doing.
Speaker 12: That was almost virtually unconscionable, and.
Speaker 8: I was just another subtrifuge, just another distraction. The point
Speaker 8: being in alost ten years of prosecution, being arrested twice
Speaker 8: and put it on trial for years, two three years
Speaker 8: at a time, millions and millions of dollars spent on
Speaker 8: prosecuting on over one hundred charts of reaching publication bans
Speaker 8: and court orders. I ended up pleading guilty.
Speaker 12: To one count a misdemeanor, which was like, let's do
Speaker 12: it your website, only not the books, and only because
Speaker 12: they had broken me victually. I mean, I would have
Speaker 12: kept fighting, but I didn't have any money left. I
Speaker 12: didn't have any property left. I didn't have anything left.
Speaker 12: You know, I was in debt half a million dollars.
Speaker 12: So when the.
Speaker 8: Government came on and said, never mind all these hundred
Speaker 8: criminal charges, never buying this lawsuit as an enemy of
Speaker 8: the state, just take a plea to one misdemeanor count
Speaker 8: van reach to do with your website. Only well website
Speaker 8: that actually had that didn't exist and had never existed.
Speaker 8: It was up on an inaccessible server because we were
Speaker 8: looking at how to do maybe, how to do this?
Speaker 8: They came to us to take a plea to one misdemeanor.
Speaker 8: And because only because I not only had no money left,
Speaker 8: I was half a million dollars in debt. I ultimately said, Okay,
Speaker 8: my lawyers advised me Edward grief practice law in North
Speaker 8: America and sterow, he's f lee bay. He's of that
Speaker 8: ill side and keep fighting. It's entirely you. But let's
Speaker 8: think if you want to spend the rest of your
Speaker 8: life doing this, or you want to just take a
Speaker 8: small insignificant hit that's not even the equivalent of a
Speaker 8: left traffic violation like legal lefture, so penalty to do
Speaker 8: with my You know, you got to look at a
Speaker 8: situation like this and say to yourself, how in God's
Speaker 8: name do these books keep setting all these years? How
Speaker 8: come that don't you ever sued the best for libel
Speaker 8: or misrepresentation or slander or anything. How Come the entire
Speaker 8: government of his country came against him on criminal charges?
Speaker 12: How come?
Speaker 8: You know, it doesn't make any sense, and it didn't
Speaker 8: make any sense, But they do what they do because
Speaker 8: that's what they do. And what they did to me
Speaker 8: was only a minor glitch compared to the more yes
Speaker 8: and nonsense they perpetrated. With the case of Paul Bernardo
Speaker 8: Macarla Homonka, let me.
Speaker 5: Ask this question, and maybe you've been asked this before,
Speaker 5: but do you really think this is about you had
Speaker 5: this incredible access to doctor? Aren't He gave you a
Speaker 5: couple satchels of everything, access to everything, which I thought
Speaker 5: was incredible and also very well unusual. Where you had
Speaker 5: the diaries, you had the information from the psychiatric tests,
Speaker 5: you had all of that information that he gave you.
Speaker 5: He didn't have to give it to He respected you,
Speaker 5: so he gave it to you, right, I don't know.
Speaker 8: And with that, yeah, he also bded all kinds of
Speaker 8: other essential material that almost would never be gotten in
Speaker 8: terms of the backgrounds of his patient. How you know
Speaker 8: all her school record, all ver medical records, everything to
Speaker 8: do with her. Very usual.
Speaker 5: Now, with that information and all the other access that
Speaker 5: you had and your persistence in this and again we
Speaker 5: have books too, books over six hundred pages, so it's
Speaker 5: cram with information. Is this really? Bottom line? Are they
Speaker 5: mad because you told the truth? Are they mad that
Speaker 5: you expose this? Most it's beyond controversial. This travesty of justice.
Speaker 5: Are they and all the all the subsequent dealings and
Speaker 5: all the explanations, are they essentially mad about this?
Speaker 8: I don't think they're had anymore because they're all either
Speaker 8: dead or retired. Well, I mean at the time, I mean,
Speaker 8: people don't think about these things. The passage of time
Speaker 8: is inexorable and it's very GENTI time, I think it
Speaker 8: was there are a couple very potful men who I
Speaker 8: had invented one way or the other, and there were
Speaker 8: there agendas at work. It's very rare phrase that families
Speaker 8: and victims have a rapacious legal representation that really it's
Speaker 8: a legal but more public relations like less than Mahafi
Speaker 8: family had with a guy named Tim Danson. Every time
Speaker 8: this case got into the press, money would flow into
Speaker 8: Dance in office for what was it called, I think
Speaker 8: towards the end the Integrity Fund for the French and
Speaker 8: Mohafe family. Nothing ever. I mean, it's a sad, sad
Speaker 8: thing to say. But the person who took the most
Speaker 8: advantage of those people, the most advantage on a large
Speaker 8: not more advantage than the people who've killed their daughter.
Speaker 8: But afterwards, the person and people who took the most
Speaker 8: advantage of them are the lawyer that represented them and
Speaker 8: the government used them as how politicians they're so lived,
Speaker 8: they're so fat to hide behind the easiest issues, and
Speaker 8: in this case the skirts of mothers of dead gris.
Speaker 8: It's so easy to be there, and they do. And
Speaker 8: at the time I think that all these forces were
Speaker 8: in play and I was just a big target and
Speaker 8: made mistake. Listen, not perfect. I made mistakes in a
Speaker 8: sense on number of occasions. It was just a large
Speaker 8: sitting target and they were there and they took advantage
Speaker 8: of it. I don't think it's issues of freedom of speech.
Speaker 8: I think that the issues that caught me the date
Speaker 8: of Britain pain that versus Husan had to do with
Speaker 8: personalities an individual. It wasn't business, it was personal, if
Speaker 8: you know what I mean, right. I think it's certain
Speaker 8: individuals saw opportunities or had taken umbrage, was saying I
Speaker 8: had or whatever. It's impossible to see it in larger
Speaker 8: societal terms because they're not there. I mean, they're just
Speaker 8: so it has to be personal. And you know, in case,
Speaker 8: one of the senior who was involved the filmmaking to
Speaker 8: do with Carla Hamalka was ended up as the assistant
Speaker 8: Deputy Minister of the Attorney General. I happened to mention
Speaker 8: in my summary and Invisible Darkness that he had been
Speaker 8: having an affair with his second here while he was
Speaker 8: managing the Hamalka business down in Niagara Falls, and that
Speaker 8: he left his wife and three children and married her.
Speaker 8: And it was only in the back end of the book,
Speaker 8: and where you summarize traditional crime what became of all
Speaker 8: the players in the case. If you write a good book,
Speaker 8: a good crime book, you've got a lot of very
Speaker 8: prominent players and characters, and you've developed them, and in
Speaker 8: the end, out of a proper form you summarize what's becoming.
Speaker 8: You know, they left, have they died, what new job
Speaker 8: have they taken, What's happened to them? Et cetera, et cetera. Well,
Speaker 8: in this case, mister Siegel happened to be the man
Speaker 8: who was responsible for order a police investigations at the
Speaker 8: very moment that, in other words, he hadn't left the
Speaker 8: Ministry of the Attorney General or the Office of the
Speaker 8: Attorney General, at the very moment that the first issue
Speaker 8: were called for by Tim Danson, the lawyer for the
Speaker 8: Families of the Office and frenches. It was dancing that
Speaker 8: called for me to be arrested and investigate, and mister
Speaker 8: Siegel was sitting in the bird seat where he had
Speaker 8: the power to order arrest. I suspect that another man
Speaker 8: would have ignored it.
Speaker 5: I know when we last spoke, because I again I
Speaker 5: think the root of the problem is and again we
Speaker 5: won't go back into it. But you said, you know,
Speaker 5: the lawyer's just doing their jobs. So that's their job.
Speaker 5: But it's clearly Tim Danson has taken his job and
Speaker 5: his responsibility to you know, irresponsible levels and unconscionable levels.
Speaker 5: I was always disgusted by his behavior, and I'm even
Speaker 5: more disgusted by what you had said and that I
Speaker 5: didn't know about Tim dance and interfering and trying to
Speaker 5: get you arrested. I know he tried to ruin your
Speaker 5: journalistic career. I mean that was obvious by the press conferences.
Speaker 5: Did on behalf of the families and this irresponsible. But
Speaker 5: what I wanted to say too, is that he wasn't
Speaker 5: just doing his job. There was people in this story
Speaker 5: that weren't just doing their job.
Speaker 8: I don't think the explanation that I was just doing
Speaker 8: my job is a justification for anything. I think anybody
Speaker 8: who has read anything about German history and World War
Speaker 8: two would easily accept the idea that just doing the
Speaker 8: job was a viable excuse. But I'm similar to that
Speaker 8: and your right to call it out, I mean, I
Speaker 8: use it as a euphemism as far as I know.
Speaker 8: I can't, at least when I was paying attention to
Speaker 8: this of Tim Dance and they're actually wanted in court,
Speaker 8: when he was representing the family, every motion that he'd
Speaker 8: brought in front of court was turned back. When he
Speaker 8: went to the Supreme Court for leave to appeal, the
Speaker 8: Supreme Court appeal something that a lower court had said
Speaker 8: is unappealable. It's not a matter for the courts. It's
Speaker 8: a matter for parliament. It's a matter for lobbys. If
Speaker 8: you want the last change, we'll go and stop wasting
Speaker 8: your client's money and lobby the government. When he ignored
Speaker 8: that advice and was the Supreme Court, and allegedly, I
Speaker 8: mean he said publicly it was in the newspapers stuff
Speaker 8: like that, that it required eight hundred million dollars for
Speaker 8: him to mount a Supreme Court challenge. When he mounted
Speaker 8: that challenge, the Supreme Court wouldn't.
Speaker 12: Even hear him.
Speaker 8: They would listen to his argument that you said it's
Speaker 8: hot for court. He understands how supreme courts work. It's
Speaker 8: a pretty dumny thing. If you're going to bring something,
Speaker 8: Try to bring something Supreme Court and they won't even
Speaker 8: let you argue in front of them. Why they should
Speaker 8: listen to it? They can or we don't want to
Speaker 8: hear anything from you of this. No, Well, but people
Speaker 8: don't follow this stuff at all. There aren't many people
Speaker 8: that follow Supreme Court rulings or pay much attention that
Speaker 8: lawyers are doing or who's doing what to whom, And
Speaker 8: in the end a lot of people that are headly
Speaker 8: by it one way or the other, because actually it's
Speaker 8: one of those areas of life you should pay a
Speaker 8: little more in inche to than most people do. You're
Speaker 8: absolutely right. I mean, I'm as guilty as the next
Speaker 8: man of using that uprom and they were just doing
Speaker 8: their jobs. I always say it tongue in cheap, but
Speaker 8: that's not always evident to somebody.
Speaker 5: Listening right with this as well. I think it's a
Speaker 5: commentary and at least this is what I have seen
Speaker 5: in these few years that I've been covering mostly American
Speaker 5: true crime writers. It is a I think, a truly
Speaker 5: unique situation, the true crime book phenomena as a genre
Speaker 5: in America when you look in comparison to Australia has
Speaker 5: a strong true crime market and fascinatingly bizarre crimes, and
Speaker 5: so does England. But Canada seems to not have that market,
Speaker 5: or at least what I see and I'm going to
Speaker 5: get you the weigh in is that based on a
Speaker 5: bunch of factors, the reluctance from the newspapers to sort
Speaker 5: of play up but rather play down some of these things,
Speaker 5: these cases, the important case depict in case Bernardo Amalka,
Speaker 5: other important murder trials. Do you really do you see
Speaker 5: a difference that I see in the public's acceptance of
Speaker 5: these cases and their interest in following those cases and
Speaker 5: learning about those cases and being up on those cases.
Speaker 5: You see a difference, a vast difference, or any difference
Speaker 5: at all between the seemingly the two societies and the
Speaker 5: response to serious, incredible crime like these evidence by Paul
Speaker 5: Bernardo and Carlo Milca.
Speaker 8: That's a very interesting question and a complex question, and
Speaker 8: superficially you could say that Americans seem to have a
Speaker 8: really overwhelming superficially purient interests. In other words, they love
Speaker 8: to consume all sorts of true crime almost the way
Speaker 8: they consume off or. In other words, they don't absorb
Speaker 8: it in any meaningful way, but it probably has an
Speaker 8: effect on their heartbeat, their system, the caffeine would. Canadians
Speaker 8: seemed to want to deny that anything bad ever happens,
Speaker 8: or organized to make it look like law and order prevail.
Speaker 8: So therefore the presentation nor the way it evolves is there.
Speaker 8: But I think some of the strangest crimes committed on
Speaker 8: the planet have been committed by Canadians. I mean, no
Speaker 8: of a character like Olson and what he did and
Speaker 8: how the authorities dealt with him, i e. Buying out
Speaker 8: you know, he held them where the victims were. They
Speaker 8: give a thousand dollars each free victim to his and child.
Speaker 8: I mean, how Canadian is that? And besides that, Olsen
Speaker 8: not only was a peculiar criminal, but he was also
Speaker 8: a peculiar and irrepressible maniac inmate. There has been no
Speaker 8: one crime like the Bernardo Harmonica crime in history, certainly
Speaker 8: not since they did it. There is a kick in
Speaker 8: England that was almost coincidence. In time, there's Fred and
Speaker 8: Rose West case, right, but it is so bizarre and
Speaker 8: so out there that it's not comparable for instan if
Speaker 8: you look at class structure and a number of other
Speaker 8: issues age class fashionness. I mean, there's really no relation
Speaker 8: to that. As far as I can tell that the
Speaker 8: Rose in West case and the Moors, there's three cases
Speaker 8: or four cases that have any similarity to the Bernardo case,
Speaker 8: and nothing like it has happened since it's so bizarre,
Speaker 8: and Canadians also produced of the most despicable, disgusting crimes
Speaker 8: like that magnatic guy in Montreal who cut up a
Speaker 8: perfectly innocent Chinese student sent his ball hearts to the
Speaker 8: conservative and liberal offices. What the fuck's had about? You know,
Speaker 8: I haven't seen anything like that out of the United State.
Speaker 5: I totally agree with you. In fact, what I had
Speaker 5: said and stated publicly is that if you look at
Speaker 5: the case of the photographer in Edmonton that lured somebody
Speaker 5: on plenty of fish and then came up with a
Speaker 5: serial killer sort of checkbook, that he was a script
Speaker 5: that he was going by to lure somebody, and as
Speaker 5: he was a woman and then murder and videotape, and
Speaker 5: then the case I was involved with Sidney teerhuse every graphic, gory,
Speaker 5: disgusting detail he wanted the world to know, and the
Speaker 5: murder spectacle that he laid out for authorities with Susan
Speaker 5: Sarandon's jewelry nearby. And it seemed like after that case,
Speaker 5: Magnauta was influenced by Colonel Williams and yes Paul Bernardo
Speaker 5: and picked in, but wanted to outdo in one murder
Speaker 5: everyone else by being over the top, by videotape, being
Speaker 5: cannibalizing and defiling this body, sending it to government agencies.
Speaker 5: Of course, there's nothing like that in America or the world,
Speaker 5: because I think Canadians are competing with Americans very much
Speaker 5: like we would in entertainment, comedians, artists.
Speaker 8: And addition, there's a certain argument to be made on
Speaker 8: its bay for that sort of thing. It's it's always
Speaker 8: struck me. It's very odd how extreme certain cases are
Speaker 8: in Canada pried to international. I mean, it's just a
Speaker 8: matter of degree. It's almost impossible to jurass afferent rate
Speaker 8: rooted crime that's going on in the gotten crime that's
Speaker 8: going on today. I mean I used to say when
Speaker 8: people would become you know, there was so much emotion
Speaker 8: at the time I was writing about the art homeof
Speaker 8: the case that even you know, for instance, Margaret at
Speaker 8: even question my son and even when she was writing
Speaker 8: Alias Grace, why doesn't he just stop this? Since they're
Speaker 8: execute again to this extent, why doesn't he, you know,
Speaker 8: just not do this. You know, Canadians they don't seem
Speaker 8: to have any perspective on anything ex polite literature, and
Speaker 8: it uses but one of the men I ideally admire
Speaker 8: and have no one over the years, off and on
Speaker 8: or go and said, I don't have a secret chart
Speaker 8: at me that the heart exists or any of the matter.
Speaker 8: I'm just, honestly, always just been a guy trying to
Speaker 8: write a good book and write about something thankful.
Speaker 12: And look into the place.
Speaker 8: The trouble is, when you go trying to do that,
Speaker 8: you find yourself stuck over the abits, as I have
Speaker 8: done so.
Speaker 5: Absolutely yeah, and its stricably involved in something that again
Speaker 5: by definition, uh never leaves you. It stays with you.
Speaker 5: And very much he wrote these books many years ago.
Speaker 5: The factor seems to go away. I've got interviewed a
Speaker 5: lot of authors that seems I can't remember the books,
Speaker 5: but I'm pretty sure you won't forget this one. So no, no,
Speaker 5: in this case at all, so I'm confident. Anyway, I
Speaker 5: want to thank you very much Stephen for coming on
Speaker 5: and talking about Invisible Darkness and your involvement in this
Speaker 5: incredible case. And we just touched on it, and I'm
Speaker 5: sure readers will be motivated to go into these books and.
Speaker 8: Pleased to do it, you know, after you know, a
Speaker 8: month or two of bread, to be happy to talk
Speaker 8: to you again if you had more stuff to get.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, this is this story is on so many levels,
Speaker 5: demonstrates so much about killers themselves and their motivation. And
Speaker 5: not only we have a spectacular killer in Paul Bernardo,
Speaker 5: but then we have a spectacular killer couple with Carla
Speaker 5: Hamlca and incredible that she's roaming around free and easy
Speaker 5: in Montreal with a couple of children and happily married. Yeah.
Speaker 5: So this this is the story that demonstrates so much
Speaker 5: about killers, but also demonstrates so much about the motivations
Speaker 5: of jurisdictions and police and government agencies and everybody with
Speaker 5: their needs. And again it opens up an incredible door
Speaker 5: for incredible discussion about so many different things in one book,
Speaker 5: in two books, covering so much history, and that it's
Speaker 5: horrifying and true regardless is very essential and important history.
Speaker 5: I want to thank you very much Stephen for coming
Speaker 5: on and talking about your incredible book and Invisible Darkness.
Speaker 8: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 5: You have a great night.
Speaker 8: Good night.
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