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We're here to do that once again 82 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:37.120 by supporting much love small businesses in your community this 83 00:03:37.240 --> 00:03:43.680 holiday season. Together, we can save our local legends. 84 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:59.400 Lock Holabia, You are now listening to True Murder, The 85 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:03.000 most shocked Killers in True crime History and the authors 86 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:08.400 that have written about them Gaesi Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker 87 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:09.400 d t K. 88 00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:13.400 Every week, another fascinating author talking. 89 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:16.360 About the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. 90 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:22.279 True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 91 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:37.000 Good Evening. Stephen Williams is a writer and investigative journalist. 92 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:41.439 His reputation was solidified by the continuing success of two books, 93 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:45.519 Invisible Darkness, The Horrifying Case of Paul Bernardo and Karla 94 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:49.519 Hamulka and Carla A Pact with the Devil, which were 95 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:55.319 critically acclaimed as apocalyptic stories set in landscapes of suburban deviance. 96 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:58.240 His nonfiction work has been compared to that of Norman 97 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:01.720 Mahler and Truman Capoti. It even has been twice arrested 98 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:04.720 to do with his writing, once in nineteen ninety eight 99 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:07.680 and again in two thousand and three, criminally charged with 100 00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:11.279 over one hundred counts of disobeying court orders and publication 101 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:14.720 bans twice, but on trial over an eight year period 102 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:17.720 between nineteen ninety eight and two thousand and five, and 103 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:23.120 twice exonerated. The Attorney General, Michael Bryant, also sued Williams 104 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:26.000 in two thousand and three as an enemy of the state, 105 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:30.040 alleging he was in possession of sensitive court documents. The 106 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:34.240 lawsuits sought unspecified damages and the seizure of William's research 107 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:37.879 and archives. Although the courts and police seized his computers 108 00:05:37.879 --> 00:05:41.399 and files, the lawsuit did not succeed. The dimension of 109 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:45.399 these attacks on a writer are unusual even in totalitarian regimes, 110 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:48.240 but in democratic countries like Canada and the United States, 111 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:51.040 they are outrageous and speak to an ugly streak of 112 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:55.279 sublimated totalitarianism. These events not only turned the writer into 113 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:58.639 a prominent character in the stories he was documenting too 114 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:01.920 well for the authorities like but we're also vile attempts 115 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:06.839 to denigrate that work and controversialize and even criminalize him. 116 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:10.720 In recognition of saying, Stephen was given the Hellman Hammet 117 00:06:10.839 --> 00:06:14.079 Award by the Human Rights Watch. The award is presented 118 00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:18.040 annually to journalists who have been prosecuted by tutalitarian regimes 119 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:21.040 such as China and Iran. A book that we are 120 00:06:21.079 --> 00:06:25.279 featuring this evening is Invisible Darkness with my special guest, 121 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:29.079 journalist and author Stephen Williams. Welcome back to the program, 122 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:31.240 and thank you very much for greing to this interview. 123 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:35.160 Stephen Williams, nice to hear from you, Dan, Thank you 124 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:40.240 for returning to discuss Invisible Darkness again, the true crime classic, 125 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:45.160 and our audience will find out why. Let's start because 126 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:48.079 we have this introduction that really I think will be 127 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:52.560 a surprise to our American and international audience. I'll tell 128 00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:55.959 our audience where you were in your career when you 129 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:59.879 heard about the arrest of Paul Bernardo, And when did 130 00:06:59.879 --> 00:07:03.040 you decide or we're enlisted to write about this case 131 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:08.160 and become inextricably involved in this fified case of paulvin 132 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:10.480 Iland color Homoka tell us about that. 133 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:15.360 Actually, it was a winter, very ugly winter up in 134 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:18.040 the country, and I was sitting at my desk on 135 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:22.480 a Sunday afternoon and thinking that my life wasn't going 136 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:25.600 quite the way I wanted to go. I'd been working 137 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:30.480 in the advertising and public relations, even though I'd written 138 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:37.160 a dozen or fifteen feature magazine pieces, and then gotten 139 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:42.399 distracted by the pursuit of money and capital of prestige, 140 00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:45.879 and thinking that it was time that I focused on 141 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:49.519 something different. And I was going through a number of 142 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:52.519 newspapers when I want. I used to collect the papers 143 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:55.319 and I look at them on a Sunday when I 144 00:07:55.480 --> 00:08:00.279 noticed an article in a tabloid newspaper, very long for 145 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:06.560 a tabloid journal, A four five folio page described arrest 146 00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:13.160 to Paul Bnardo in Saint Catharines, Ontario, which is very 147 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:15.839 close to the American border. It's about a ten minute 148 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:21.639 drive from Niagara Falls, both Canadian and Americans, and a 149 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:25.839 sort of depressed town because it was reliant on the 150 00:08:25.879 --> 00:08:31.560 auto industry, and that was in some disarray at that point, 151 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:36.639 and the idea that this sort of you know, well 152 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:43.080 educated accountant person had been arrested suddenly in Saint Catharine's 153 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.840 for at that point, all that was no one was 154 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:50.120 that he was being arrested for the Scarborough rapes, a 155 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:53.919 series of rapes that started in nineteen eighty seven and 156 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:57.240 included in the early nineteen nineties that he was being 157 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:02.480 arrested for. Most in the bottom parts of the article, 158 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:05.960 it described the fact that he lived in Saint Catherine's 159 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:12.200 with his young wife, who was a veterinary clinic assistant 160 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:16.440 in you know, native of Saint catherine'es. And I thought 161 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:20.240 to myself, there's something wrong with this situation. There's being 162 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:25.200 wrong with this scenario. Serial rapists are very rare at 163 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:30.159 any rate in criminal history. But the idea that this 164 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:34.759 guy was down there living with a young, attractive woman 165 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:37.840 and was in fact married to her. And I just 166 00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:41.200 decided to write a note to half a dozen publishers 167 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:44.159 that I knew, saying, you know, the real question here 168 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:48.720 is what was this woman doing while this man was 169 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:50.240 out raping and pillaging? 170 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:50.879 Right? 171 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:54.440 The real question to be answered is that question. It 172 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:57.840 was about a paragraph or maybe a paragraph and a half, 173 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:01.000 the shortest thing I think I've ever written, and because 174 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:03.759 that really struck me, so I sent it out to 175 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:06.919 a half a dozen publishers. This is a Sunday afternoon 176 00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:11.000 in those days, by facts, and on Monday I had 177 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:15.480 three authors do a book, plus an offer from an 178 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:20.200 international publisher who said that we would do things to 179 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:23.879 make sure that we got an American and the English deal. 180 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:27.960 So that's how it started. I was reading some newspapers 181 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.919 on a dark winter afternoon up in the country, and 182 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:36.279 there you go. The one thing to make clear is 183 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:39.080 that there were two or three other newspaper people who 184 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:43.159 did books on the case eventually, but no one had 185 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.240 ever asked a question about the woman, and I didn't 186 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:50.720 know what the situation was with her, or if there 187 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:52.000 even was a situation. 188 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:55.919 Let's start with because we can't go right to the beginning, 189 00:10:55.960 --> 00:10:59.120 and a lot of most people have a really good 190 00:10:59.159 --> 00:11:01.720 sort of famework of what this story is about, but 191 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:05.000 of course your book goes much much further. Let's talk 192 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:09.080 about the situation with Vince Bevan at the same time, 193 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:12.039 the Scarborough rapist, as you said, he was on the 194 00:11:12.039 --> 00:11:17.159 loose from eighty seven till ninety four nineties. So let's 195 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:20.440 talk about the situation in what we call the GTA, 196 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:24.519 the Greater Toronto area now about six million people or so, 197 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:27.480 and we talked about You've mentioned the Saint Catherines are 198 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:31.000 a little small place outside of Toronto near Nagara Falls. 199 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:33.679 So let's talk about the Green Ribbon Task Force that's 200 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:36.600 assembled at the same time that Vince Bevan is in 201 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:37.519 Saint Catharines. 202 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:41.480 Right. Saint Catherines even then was sort of a bedroom 203 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:47.679 community to Toronto, and that's how it's located geographically. A 204 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:50.799 great number of people that lived in the nicer parts 205 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:54.960 of Niagara on the lake where the Shaw Festival is 206 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:58.559 very close to Saint Catherines. A great number of people 207 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:04.600 commuted to Toronto or were ex Frontonians living in the 208 00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:08.120 nice area of the Nagare Parks and Niagara Falls, all 209 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:11.759 that sort of thing. The interesting thing about Vince Bevan, 210 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:17.080 who was eventually made the head they're the chief of 211 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:20.879 the Green Ribbon Task Force, the task force that they 212 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:27.639 established to look into what became multiple strange sexual homicides, 213 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:34.039 was basically a hometown boy from that area whose father 214 00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:38.919 had been a policeman and basically a policeman's son from 215 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:42.519 a policing family who was one of the few guys 216 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:46.320 who had gotten an education and actually had a university 217 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:51.960 degree and had sort of become involved with information technology it, 218 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:57.799 you know, and police applications for it. And somehow over 219 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:03.039 a period of some months, because the soul was a mystery, 220 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:08.080 they didn't apprehend Lenardo immediately. The story goes back to 221 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:13.720 even years where he was free and inexplicably free, and 222 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:18.039 the MAgric Regional Police where Vince Bebin was employed, were 223 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:21.919 not getting anywhere, etc. But at this point end time 224 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:25.320 when he was arrested, he had been made the head 225 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:28.320 of the Green Ribbon Task Force, which was a task 226 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:33.320 force that refused to have anybody from the Toronto Police 227 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:37.759 Force involved. The Green Ribbon Task Force was formed from 228 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:41.039 a series of smaller police forces in and around the 229 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:46.759 region Hamilton, Burlington, Peel, whatever. But the Toronto Police Force, 230 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:51.919 who were the people who actually identified Lenardo as a rapist, 231 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:56.159 would refuse to have anything to do with this task 232 00:13:56.279 --> 00:13:58.879 force that was formed under Vince Babin. 233 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:01.919 You have a regional task. 234 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:06.159 Force that is and thickly set up against the major 235 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:09.159 police forts in the whole region, which is the Toronto 236 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:12.000 Police Force. It's like setting the New York Police Force 237 00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:18.120 against you know, the force in New Jersey or Connecticut 238 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:23.159 or something. Right, Sure, so you've got this guy hang 239 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:27.360 up a task force that has twelve or fourteen different 240 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:32.919 police force members working in the task force. It's in 241 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:38.159 an antithesis to the force that's actually caught the forensic 242 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:41.000 evidence that brought Bernardo to their attention. 243 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:47.240 Finally, now let's talk about Bernardo is questioned. And so 244 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:50.279 let's go back to when Bernardo is questioned, not arrested, 245 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:53.840 but questioned. Who does the questioning, What do they ask him, 246 00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:56.519 what do they get from him? And then what is 247 00:14:56.519 --> 00:15:00.799 his reaction and the conversation with Carla, because I think, well, 248 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.679 we know that is important in this story. 249 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:08.919 Well, it's certainly interesting prior to his arrest, which if 250 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:12.080 I'm not mistaken, it's a long time ago. I mean 251 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:14.960 it was prior to the oj Simpson trial in nineteen 252 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:18.279 ninety five, so I think it was in nineteen ninety three. 253 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:24.320 But prior to Bernardo's arrest, he was interviewed once as 254 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:30.159 in Toronto Police way back in nineteen ninety and the 255 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:33.279 Toronto police that interviewed them. They were interviewing on the 256 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:37.919 basis that he resembled composite sketch of the Scarborough rapist. 257 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:42.840 He had been raping women in Toronto, and that interviewed 258 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:47.519 him for a number of reasons, partly because he was 259 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:51.600 a character very much liked the detectives who interviewed him. 260 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:55.919 He was about their age in Toronto. These two detectives 261 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:59.840 interviewed in both were university educated. That happened in Toronto. 262 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:04.519 They were young, they're very good looking, attractive guy, and 263 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:08.879 when they sat down to interview Bernardo, they had nothing 264 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.679 except a few people saying he looked like a composite drawing, 265 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:16.279 and when they looked at him, they thought, well, he 266 00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:19.960 looks just like us. So no one Tenna went up. 267 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:25.200 And the problem was, in those days, DA testing was 268 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:30.440 a prolonged issue, and they had hundreds of samples from 269 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:35.200 various rapes and murders and whatnot in the forensic center 270 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:40.000 at the Toronto Police Force. And since these guys didn't 271 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:43.840 have a feeling about this guy, the old samples they 272 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:46.559 had continued to sit on there on the shelf and 273 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:51.039 the lab. In the meantime, Bernardo walks away from this scenario, 274 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:55.759 thinking that he's invincible because clearly there's nothing going to happen. 275 00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:57.039 He goes down. 276 00:16:57.320 --> 00:17:01.279 At this point, he has a relationship with Carla in 277 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:04.799 Saint Catherines. He's still living with his parents in Scarborough. 278 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:08.559 He goes down to Saint Catherines and tells Carla that 279 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:11.880 he's the Scarborough rapist. Basically tells her that he's a 280 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:16.119 Scarborough rapist and they've just interviewed and it was as 281 00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:19.359 hysterical about it, whatnot, and this and that, as does 282 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:26.079 a coroner. So the sister's death is world accidental. 283 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:30.519 Or death by victation caused by you know, vomiting. So 284 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:34.599 now you have a man who has committed a half 285 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:38.759 a dozen, maybe eight or nine rapes in Scarborough, gotten 286 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:41.839 away with it, at least just the way he sees it. 287 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:47.400 Decided to move into his fiance in quotes house with 288 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:53.119 her parents and with her help, successfully rape her younger sister. 289 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:56.039 Except it wasn't that successful. 290 00:17:55.440 --> 00:18:00.839 Given she died and now they're in a house is hysterical. 291 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:04.720 Paul and Carlo decide to move out because the parents, 292 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:09.799 naturally grieving and hysterical, decide that it's not the appropriate 293 00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:12.519 time for them to be married, but they're not having 294 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:15.680 any of that. So they move out and they rent 295 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:20.240 a house in a high end area of Agara Falls 296 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:24.720 region down there and a sort of suburban area right 297 00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:28.519 on Lake Ontario called Port Dulusi. They rent a house 298 00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:31.240 there and then they continue on their way. 299 00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:36.839 Now, for those people that are shocked by the rape, 300 00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:42.200 wedding present, Christmas present for Paul Bernardo, we're doing this 301 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:45.319 out of order, but because this discovery doesn't happen to 302 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:49.279 much much later, and so tell us what was their 303 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:55.119 plan after Tammy had been accidentally killed? They've gotten away 304 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:57.720 with it, but what is their plan after it? What 305 00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:00.799 do these two people cook up? And and you can 306 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:04.960 go through what they did in the Indian and Tammy's 307 00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:09.480 room with Tammy's clothing videotaping. Tell us a little bit 308 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:12.000 about that before we talk about Jane Doe. 309 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:16.400 First of all, there's arguments to be made that Tammy 310 00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:22.559 Lynn's death was at least second degree murder. There's arguments 311 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:26.440 to be made that neither of them intended her to die, 312 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:30.920 But there's also a very strong legal argument could be 313 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:36.799 made that they knew enough that their actions would produce death, 314 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:40.839 so therefore it would be at least second degree murder. 315 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:44.200 But that's besides the point, because they got got away 316 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:48.920 with that. The next project is that it's very hard 317 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:52.039 to describe a lot of people in Hollywood and in 318 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:57.000 television have had very great difficulty sort of even comprehending 319 00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:02.519 the aspect of the story. She decides her parents aren't worthy, 320 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:05.920 they don't care about her enough, and she decides she'll 321 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:09.680 move in with Bernardo in this sort of pink Cape 322 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.640 cod style house in Port de Lucy on the water. 323 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:16.640 And actually I even have lost track of what came 324 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:21.920 first and what came second, but certainly one of the 325 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:26.000 next things that happened in the period of time that 326 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:30.160 they were planning their wedding, which they were deeply engrossed 327 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:34.119 in for a period of about four months. This incident, 328 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:39.799 Tammy Lynn's murder, happened in December nineteen ninety and by 329 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:45.079 end of April, if I'm not mistaken, they were married 330 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:50.079 in Port Dalusi in a old church and whatnot. But 331 00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:56.039 in between, Paul Bernardo did a young teenage girl in 332 00:20:56.079 --> 00:21:02.039 Burlington while he was out for license plates to steal 333 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:06.559 and brought her home. Her name was Leslie Mahoff fifteen 334 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:11.960 year old normal schoolgirl in Burlington, Ontario, and brought her 335 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:15.359 back to this house they had in Port de Lucy, 336 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:19.440 and for about a three day period, both he and 337 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:26.319 Carla sexually assaulted Leslie and then murdered her. So that happens, 338 00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:30.599 and they dismember her body in the basement, put her 339 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:34.279 body part in case them in cement, and dump a 340 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:38.319 reservoir that feeds the Saint Catharine's called Lake Gibson, and 341 00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:42.759 go off to their wedding. And on the very day 342 00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:46.759 that they're being wed in a sort of white horse 343 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:51.720 drawn carriage deal which includes one hundred of their closest 344 00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:56.559 friends and family, at a quite lavish sit down dinner 345 00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:01.319 at the Queen's Landing, which in Nagron Lakes, lovely hotel 346 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:06.039 that many Americans were aware of. And during that very moment, 347 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:11.720 the body parts are discovered in Lake Gibson by a fisherman. 348 00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:16.279 Because Bernardo had been responsible for making sure that they 349 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:19.880 had bought to put the body parts in needed time 350 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:23.599 to coll as, and he didn't give it enough time, 351 00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:26.519 so a couple of the lids that contained these body 352 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:31.759 parts separated in the water of Lake Gibson, and neither 353 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:35.519 of them had done enough research into the Lake Gibson 354 00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:39.240 and how it worked reservoir, you know, raise it and 355 00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:43.039 go down according to the usage. Some of these cement 356 00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:46.519 blocks in which the body parts were based were close 357 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:50.200 and they separated and the fishermen found them. So the 358 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:54.400 police came and found these body parts of someone they 359 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:57.839 weren't even sure it was missing in you know, on 360 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:01.599 the shores of Lake Gibson. So by the time the 361 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:04.799 police figure out who the girl is, of course, there 362 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:08.559 are a number of missing girls around the one hundred 363 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:14.119 mile radius they figure out it. Leslie Mahaffi, Bernardo and 364 00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:18.079 Homolka have already gone on their honeymoon to Hawaii and 365 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:23.000 come back. So now we're at the stage where both 366 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:29.559 of them think that they're uncatchable and invincible because nobody 367 00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:32.960 seems to know anything about what might have happened this 368 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:39.440 poor girl. Leslie Mahaffy hemy Lynn situation is behind everybody, 369 00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:43.640 and now they're just living in this lovely house in 370 00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:48.000 Port de Lucy coming back from their honeymo very bizarre situation. 371 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:53.880 Tell us about the abduction of Christian French and Carla's 372 00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:56.359 participation in that. 373 00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:00.400 Well, should we mentioned the fact that there's been Doe 374 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:05.319 between that abduction, and I mean, we probably should bring 375 00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:08.720 Jane Doe in this. Absolutely the woman knowing is the 376 00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:12.000 young woman known as Jane Doe, because this is an 377 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:16.799 astounding sort of fact in the story that shortly shortly 378 00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:21.960 after they returned from their honeymoon. Actually, you know what, 379 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:26.759 I think, I think that Jane Doe factored in before 380 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:31.759 Leslie Mahafi was kidnamed. I think I somehow remember that 381 00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:38.200 Bernardo asserted that Mahaffi was reciprocal, sort of reciprocal gift 382 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:41.839 for Jane Doe. But regardless, it's all in my book 383 00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:46.920 and very I knew detail. At some point in this 384 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:54.240 incredible insanity, Carla decides that she needs to do something 385 00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:59.759 for Paul, something special for Paul, and she lures a 386 00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:03.200 young girl that she'd met at the veterinary clinic and 387 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:06.720 the pet shop she used to work at, who also 388 00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:11.319 is fifteen and strangely looks very much like Tammy Lynn, 389 00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:15.720 her sister, dead sister. She lures her over to this 390 00:25:16.039 --> 00:25:22.160 house in Porteluci one evening and does to her exactly 391 00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:26.000 what she did to her sister, so that Paul could 392 00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:30.160 rate her sister with impunity, and that is she got 393 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:34.240 more hal athane from the veterinary clinic and esthetic, which 394 00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:38.559 she well knew was very dangerous to use with anyone 395 00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:41.640 who had eaten anything or drunk anything, or at any 396 00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:47.400 other suppressants or tranquilizer. So whatever, she got exactly the 397 00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:51.960 same drug and used exactly the same pills. It was 398 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:57.799 helthane and the tamazepam or something a strong sedative. And 399 00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:03.160 she put Jane Doe down in their new house in 400 00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:08.240 Port Dealusia and called her husband on the phone that said, 401 00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:12.400