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True Murder with 43 00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:18.120 your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. It 44 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:20.719 was one of the biggest crime stories of the decade. 45 00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:25.240 Two deadly killers, desperate and on the run after months 46 00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:28.960 of planning Ricky, Matt and David Sweat cut, chopped, coerced, 47 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.719 and connived their way out of a maximum security prison 48 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:34.520 in the wilderness of upstate New York and managed to 49 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:38.360 elude police for three weeks, sending the region into lockdown 50 00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:42.120 and keeping the entire country on edge. The media called 51 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:45.039 it a bold escape for the ages, and veteran true 52 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:48.639 crime writer Michael Benson leads us along the stories every 53 00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:53.199 wild path to dig out a tale of adventure, psychology, sex, 54 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:57.840 and brutality. Escape from Dana Moore examines the strange case 55 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:00.919 of Joyce Mitchell, the longtime as an employee who had 56 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:03.639 a sexual relationship with at least one of the killers, 57 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:07.639 and who smuggled them tools and aided in the escape 58 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:10.520 while they cooked up a plan to kill her husband. 59 00:03:11.400 --> 00:03:14.439 In the end, Benson looks closely at conditions at the 60 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:18.319 Clinton Correctional Facility in Danamore and New York, a crumbling 61 00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:22.960 Gothic pile now under investigation for charges of drug trafficking 62 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:26.560 and brutality. The book that we're featuring this evening is 63 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:31.120 Escape from Danamora. Richard Matt David Sweat in the Great 64 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:36.759 Adirondack Manhunt with my special guest journalist and author Michael Benson. 65 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:39.759 Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much 66 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:43.439 for greeting this interview. Michael Benson, thanks for having me, 67 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:50.000 Thank you very much. Congratulations on another again fantastic, fantastic book. 68 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:55.759 Now I always ask this question, so I'm just curious 69 00:03:56.199 --> 00:03:59.800 what brought you to this story, in particular to write 70 00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:01.280 this book, Escape from Denamora. 71 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:06.080 Well, I think you put it very well in your opening. 72 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:10.719 It's a story that has everything. It's got the adventure 73 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:14.479 of a man hunt through rugged terrain and inclement weather. 74 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:19.839 It's got a sex component to it. And the thing 75 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:23.199 that my book talks about that I think isn't widely 76 00:04:23.319 --> 00:04:27.639 known is exactly what David Sweat and Richard matt did 77 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:30.519 to get into prison in the first place. Because once 78 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:33.759 you understand how brutal and horrible these men were, you 79 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:37.920 realize how why there was so much frustration with law 80 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:40.639 enforcement that instead of having the key thrown away, they 81 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:42.000 were handed the key to get out. 82 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:49.560 Exactly. Now, do you tell also talk about the history 83 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:55.040 of the prison and Danimora, and so tell us a 84 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:58.040 little bit of just about Donamor and just the history 85 00:04:58.240 --> 00:04:59.639 of the facility. 86 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:04.959 Sure, there's been a prison on that spot since eighteen 87 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:08.680 forty four. It predates the village around it, and it 88 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:12.519 was originally built as an outpost prison, and the location 89 00:05:12.759 --> 00:05:14.959 was considered prime because it was in a valley close 90 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:17.959 to the iron mines near the hills of Wayan Mountain. 91 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:22.240 So the first inmates they lived in shacks heated by 92 00:05:22.279 --> 00:05:24.319 wood in the winter, and they were chained together and 93 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:27.079 forced to build the prison. And once the prison was built, 94 00:05:27.319 --> 00:05:31.800 they're put to work mining the iron from the mines, 95 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:38.959 and it eventually developed into a maximum security prison. Basically 96 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:41.959 because of it's like the real estate, the best place 97 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:47.040 to put a prison is the place is very remote 98 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:52.600 because the surrounding area, the terrain is not meant for 99 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:55.879 the average human being, and it forms an outer outer wall, 100 00:05:57.040 --> 00:05:59.319 much like they put Alcatraz on an island in the 101 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:01.759 middle of San Franis. If you got out of the prison, 102 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:03.480 you still have to deal with the chop he wars. 103 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:06.079 And in the long run, it was the outer outer 104 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:11.639 wall of the Anadas that captured Matt Sweat. 105 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:21.040 Now you talk about some the conditions in Dana Mora 106 00:06:21.399 --> 00:06:24.240 over the years there. You talk about in nineteen twenty 107 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:27.000 nine there was a riot occurred exposed of the prison's 108 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:31.199 brutal conditions. But we just for the sake of brevity, 109 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:34.600 we have to talk about more modern times with Danama. 110 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:40.800 So let's just talk about Dana Mora before David Sweat 111 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:47.839 gets there, because David Sweat precedes are part, precedes Richard 112 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:50.920 Matt by five years in Dana Moora. So let's go 113 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:53.920 back to Dana Moore in more recent times and talk 114 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:56.560 about the conditions that were prevalent in there before we 115 00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:59.439 talk about any of the crimes and the history of 116 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:01.360 David Sweat and Richard Malo. 117 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:05.519 Dan Moore was a kinder and genular place in two 118 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:09.279 thousand and two than it was in nineteen twenty, but 119 00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:12.199 that's not saying much. It was still the worst place 120 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:15.319 to do time in New York State and perhaps in 121 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:18.480 the country, although there are some prisoners down in Texas. 122 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:20.040 I think they'd give it a run for its money. 123 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:24.439 I was known for its brutality, known for inmates being beaten. 124 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:30.160 It's where they put a lot of gang members from 125 00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:36.000 New York City, so there's constant dangers. So but on 126 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:39.600 the other hand, the riot that you mentioned brought about 127 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:44.240 some reforms and one of those reforms was they instead 128 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:48.959 of just punishing prisoners, they tried to rehabilitate them. And 129 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:52.759 part of that was the tailoring shops. Prisoners if they 130 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:56.480 chose to, could learn how to sell make a suit 131 00:07:57.199 --> 00:08:00.839 and perhaps earn a living when they got out, if 132 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:02.560 they were going to get out. And it was in 133 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:07.480 the in the Terror Shop where Matt and Sweat Mcjulie 134 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:10.720 Mitchell who turned out to be the co conspirator in 135 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:11.279 the escape. 136 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:17.920 Now you talk about the the conditions you talk about 137 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:21.879 they want to rehabilitate prisoners, but I don't know if 138 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:26.920 everybody's familiar with with that entails and again like maybe 139 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:30.399 somebody could have a skill, but you're looking at and 140 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:33.080 as you provide in the book, there's some very very 141 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:36.159 dangerous people like you member the gang members, but also 142 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:40.440 famous guys like Lucky Luciano that have been in Dana Morris. 143 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:45.159 So these are not less serious people despite being called 144 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:49.600 a Clinton correctional facility. But this you do talk about 145 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:58.200 the actual conditions brought on by again the unusual circumstances 146 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:05.600 that bring people together for years and years relationships developed. 147 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:09.720 And you also say that some of the restrictions rules 148 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:12.279 all of those things go by the wayside or get 149 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:15.200 stretched or so as you do in the book, explain 150 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:19.600 really the conditions in a place like this with dangerous 151 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:22.879 criminals and despite that conditions in reality. 152 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:28.360 Well, I think that one thing that I can't emphasize 153 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:31.960 enough is that what these two guys pulled off was 154 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:36.919 practically impossible. And it's doubtful that any other two prisoners 155 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:41.159 could put their heads together and come up with a 156 00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:44.440 plan to get out and then execute it. What you 157 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:50.480 had was two guys with complimentary skills, and they used 158 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:55.840 the tension within the prison as a distraction. You know, 159 00:09:56.440 --> 00:09:59.440 the guards were worried about gang fights. Nobody was looking 160 00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:02.799 at these two guys who you know, weren't going anywhere 161 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:05.399 for a long time and weren't affiliated with any group 162 00:10:06.279 --> 00:10:09.919 and sure have fun being adjacent self. And what they 163 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:13.639 did was they created a two headed monster. You know, 164 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:16.960 Richard Matt is a schmoozer, he's a ladies man. He 165 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:19.600 can attract people to his cause and get people to 166 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:22.600 do things for him favors. And David Sweat was a 167 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:29.000 three dimensional thinker. He could seuth puzzles, could read a 168 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:33.519 blueprint from across the room upside down, and he could 169 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:37.000 figure out a way to get out, and Matt's job 170 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:40.320 was to recruit the help they would need to accomplish 171 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:45.399 their plan. So yeah, I mean the conditions at the 172 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:49.639 prison are important in the sense that there was a 173 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:52.279 focus of concern at the time of the escape, but 174 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:54.639 it was not on the escapees. 175 00:10:56.519 --> 00:10:59.480 Before. We talk about the escape as you do, and 176 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:02.320 this is the information that people are not aware of, 177 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:05.200 and this is horrifying stuff. You talk about the early 178 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:08.000 life of David Sweat and how he became a planner, 179 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:10.759 and then you have the shining example of what he 180 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:14.919 does with these skills with his friends Noveinger and Deval 181 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:18.360 and well that's his fireworks in Grand Bend, Pennsylvania. So 182 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:21.120 tell us about it a little bit about his early life, 183 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:24.559 but this robbery in particular is very demonstrative. 184 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:30.279 Well, Sweat a bad kid growing up to an ol delinquent, 185 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:34.200 and as many do, he graduated to become a bad 186 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:37.519 young adult. He's in a small town down near Binghamton, 187 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:40.360 New York with two of his buddies and they're stealing 188 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:42.480 cars in r v's and they're living in the woods. 189 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:45.799 I had a place they're calling one dirt road it's 190 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:52.360 a remote spot and they fancy themselves and a commandos 191 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:54.759 or something that they're tearing around the woods and these 192 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:58.159 these cars, and they're bragging to each other about if 193 00:11:58.159 --> 00:11:59.639 they ever get caught by the cops, they're going to 194 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:03.159 shoot it out. You can never have enough guns. So 195 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:05.240 they come up with a plan to go down there, 196 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:08.200 you have a fireworks plant in Pennsylvania, steal a bunch 197 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:11.120 of weapons. They plow a pickup truck right through the 198 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:13.960 front door, alarm goes off. They load up the truck 199 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:17.240 with the guns, tear out of there, and then they 200 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:20.799 stop at a park closer to home and where they're 201 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:22.919 going to transfer the guns from one vehicle to the other. 202 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:28.679 And as they're doing this, Officer Kevin Tarzia of the 203 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:33.480 Binghamton County Sheriff's Department comes pulling up and puts the 204 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:37.559 spotlight on them. So they've been waiting for this moment 205 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:43.399 for a long time. They come up firing. Both Sweat 206 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:48.039 and his cousin shoot the officer. Sweat gets in his 207 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:50.559 car and runs the officer over a few times just 208 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:54.480 to make sure he's dead. And you know, that's that's 209 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:59.639 the kind of guy he was. But the planning that 210 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:03.559 had come into the into the the robbery that day. 211 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:07.720 Here's your indication of how he thought. He had had 212 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:11.559 a diagram of the entire fireworks plant and where exactly 213 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:13.759 the guns were going to be. So when they got inside, 214 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:15.519 the knew exactly where to go with what's the tape, 215 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:18.559 and they were in and out very quickly. But the 216 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:21.000 idea of shooting it out with cops if they ever 217 00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:23.600 got stopped, of course, was a was a stupid one. 218 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:31.200 Yeah, And then so he does that. He again, as 219 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:35.120 you say, he likes to talk. And soon after there 220 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:40.159 him and Nabager are charged with murder, and Sweat's girlfriend, Audrey, 221 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:44.360 cooperates with police. They find the story vehicle calling Audrey. 222 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:45.240 That's not her real name. 223 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:49.519 Right now, you tell us to avoid the death penalty, 224 00:13:50.919 --> 00:13:54.519 Sweat pleads guilty and he's gets life without parole, and 225 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:57.879 he's packed off to Danama in October two thousand and three. 226 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:01.639 Now tell us we get Dana Moore. But the time 227 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:05.840 Richard matt gets there, he has met this Joyce Mitchell. 228 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:09.120 So tell us a little bit about more about Joyce Mitchell, her, 229 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.399 a little bit of her background, and when is it 230 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:18.200 that these two meets David Sweat and Joyce Mitchell and 231 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:21.960 what's his status By the time Richard Matt gets to Denimora. 232 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:26.039 Well, Joyce Mitchell is the fe fetale of the story. 233 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:30.240 She's a civilian employee of the prison. She teachest the 234 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:34.879 Clinton Correction Facilities tailor shop, and she was a believer 235 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:38.600 in inmates with benefits. Now, I didn't get a chance 236 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:40.679 to speak with her because I think, as many people know, 237 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:43.559 she would only talk to Matt Lauer of the Today Show. 238 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:46.200 But I spoke to a lot of people who knew her, 239 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:52.879 and sexual intrigue was part of her lifestyle. Her husband, Lyle, 240 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:56.039 was the lover who broke up her first marriage. There 241 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:59.000 there was always she always had one husband, one boyfriend. 242 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:04.200 The fact that she would, you know, commit adultery inside 243 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:09.000 the prison not that shocking. So yeah, she believed that 244 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:16.279 inmates with benefits. And she's a plain woman, bespectacled, middle aged, blond, 245 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:19.919 a little heavy, and she's been with her husband for 246 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:24.080 fourteen years. At this point, they're living on a nice 247 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.840 street in Dickenson Center, about fifty five miles from the prison. 248 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:31.799 Her husband, Lyle, also works in the prison, and she 249 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:39.879 becomes Sweats good friend, and he becomes the prisoner in 250 00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:45.720 charge of that Taylor shop. But what happens is she 251 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:51.240 ends up taking some some nude pictures of herself and 252 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:54.720 gives them to him, and they get caught doing that, 253 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:59.879 and she gets reprimanded, not fired, and he gets moved 254 00:15:59.879 --> 00:16:04.720 to a different job. But then his good buddy, Richard 255 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:08.720 Matt moves in and by the time he gets there, 256 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:14.639 you know, the he already knows from his buddy David 257 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:19.639 that Joyce is susceptible to the attentions of men. And 258 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:22.159 that's all Richard Matt needs to know. You know, he 259 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:30.000 knows he can manipulate this woman. So yeah, she uh yeah, 260 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.200 she told her first interview with the police after she 261 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:37.399 was a questioned, said that she had taken naked photos 262 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:39.879 of her breasts and vagina and given them to Sweat, 263 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:43.080 but she didn't know what he did with them. I 264 00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:46.320 can imagine, I suppose. And during that interview she said 265 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:48.960 that although she had uh she'd been punished at work 266 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:52.200 for having an inappropriate relationship with Sweat, it was really 267 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:55.000 Matt that she liked, and he liked her back, and 268 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:59.279 he made her feel special. She she brought him all 269 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:04.039 kinds of present brownies cookies. He was able to relay 270 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:07.920 messages to his daughter through her. She would call Matt's 271 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:10.400 daughter and then say, you know he's Back's doing fine. 272 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:12.279 You know, did you get the president he sent that 273 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:16.240 kind of thing. In exchange for this, she gave them 274 00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:22.000 hexaw blades, supposedly at first, saying she didn't know what 275 00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:25.160 the hecksaw blades were for. She thought maybe they oh, 276 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:27.480 they were using them to build frames for the paintings 277 00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:29.720 they were doing or something like that. But eventually she 278 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:32.599 figures out that there's an escape and she thinks she's 279 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:34.720 going to be part of them. She thinks she and 280 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:38.039 her new boyfriend, Richard Matt, who she's fooling around with 281 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:42.720 in the rooms behind the behind the tailor shop, thinks 282 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:44.720 that they're all going to run away together and live 283 00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:52.039 happily ever after. Now, Mitchell's coworkers noticed a change in 284 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:55.359 her during the two months before the escape. She starts 285 00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:58.319 to wear makeup, to wear extra button on his shirt 286 00:17:58.359 --> 00:18:01.160 would gun button. She's lost way. She was trying to 287 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:03.480 look more beautiful and sexier while on the job. And 288 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:05.880 this is this is a pattern in her life. The 289 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:09.400 longtime friends would go, oh that means a boyfriend, so 290 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:13.559 she's a The sex served to make Joyce Mitchell dependent 291 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:16.920 on the prisoners, and the men convinced her that she 292 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:23.160 was their trusted partner, that they were even going to 293 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:27.799 bump off her husband on the way out so that 294 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:30.720 she could dry right off into the sunset with them 295 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:33.960 as a single gal so and she even went so 296 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:37.519 far as to call Cabins for Rent and Vermont inquiring 297 00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:40.839 about raps because that's what that's where they were going 298 00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:43.319 to go. So she lived in a fantasy world right 299 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:45.279 up until the last minute, when all of a sudden, 300 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:46.960 the light bulb went on over her head and she 301 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:50.400 realized that she was being duped by these guys. And 302 00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:53.200 the chances are if she showed up on the outside 303 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:56.039 with the getaway Carrie she promised to do that she 304 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:58.480 would be killed. They didn't meet her, they needed her car, 305 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:02.880 and that caused her an anxiety attack and she went 306 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:06.880 into the hospital so well instead of supplying the getaway car, 307 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.880 she was many miles away, and that ended up being 308 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:15.599 the key factor. Because these guys were not outdoorsmen. The 309 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:17.559 last thing they wanted to do was to go into 310 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:20.559 those woods, but they had to another choice you know, 311 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:24.599 the getaway car didn't show up, so they went to 312 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:26.880 Plan B, even though they didn't have a Plan D. 313 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:31.079 And it was it was because they weren't really I 314 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:33.720 suspect Richard Matt had never really slept outdoors in his 315 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:37.599 entire life, and Sweat had some scout like training when 316 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:39.720 there was a kid, and he fancied himself an outdoors 317 00:19:39.799 --> 00:19:40.799 Then he was the guy who was out in the 318 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:45.759 woods driving the ar Visa around. But they weren't really survivalists. 319 00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:49.480 They needed civilization, so they couldn't get too deep into 320 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:52.400 the atronics. They had to stay close to civilization. They 321 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:55.240 used the cabins in the woods and stay close to 322 00:19:55.400 --> 00:19:57.039 roads so they would know that they were going in 323 00:19:57.079 --> 00:20:02.720 the right direction. That kind of thing. That was eventually 324 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:07.640 their undoing. But Joyce Mitchell also she was responsible for 325 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:11.160 them not getting away because she backed out at the 326 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:11.839 last minute. 327 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:17.319 Let's talk about Richard Matt as you do, because he 328 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:23.640 is the most interesting character here. Oh yes, and you 329 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:26.640 talk about him growing up in nineteen was born in 330 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:30.599 nineteen sixty six in Buffalo, New York. Now this is 331 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:36.480 a tragic upbringing, and not that it explains anything, but 332 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:39.599 tell us as you do about his upbringing before we 333 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:43.799 talk about how he got to Dani Mora, and also 334 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:47.920 the very interesting story of David Bentley, the motorcycle cop, 335 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.039 who had faith in this guy and thought there was 336 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:53.160 some hope. So tell us as you do about Richard 337 00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:54.759 matt Well. 338 00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:57.039 I don't know if you recall it. I wrote a 339 00:20:57.079 --> 00:20:59.880 book a couple of years ago called The Devil Agency Junction, 340 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:02.839 which is about the murders of two girls and when 341 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:05.039 I was a kid. That murder took place on June 342 00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:08.920 twenty fifth, nineteen sixty six, which bizarrely was the day 343 00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:13.599 Richard matt was born. The Devil was busy that day. 344 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:20.279 He was abandoned, left in a car, grew up in 345 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:25.960 a series of foster homes, one in particular, and his 346 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:28.000 foster parents were actually pretty good to him and got 347 00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:31.279 him involved in youth activities in sports, which he excelled. 348 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:35.279 But again a nature versus nurture type thing. He was 349 00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:38.519 the son of an air do Well, a criminal without 350 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:40.799 a conscience, and that's what he grew up to be himself, 351 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:43.440 and he turned into a little bit of a one 352 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:47.359 man crime wave in the Buffalo area. He's a bad kid, 353 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:53.240 frightening propensity for violence, and his crimes, as often happens, 354 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:57.920 escalated until he was arrested for kidnapping, torturing, and killing 355 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:01.599 and dismembering a former boss in an attempted robbery that 356 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:07.160 went really, really bad. His partner that twenty five year 357 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:10.359 old Lee Eugene Bates, who was a part time strip 358 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:14.559 club employee and criminal justice major at Erie Community College. 359 00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:23.759 Interesting combination, and Bates was largely responsible for the prosecution 360 00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:27.319 and getting a conviction against Maddy, who read to cut 361 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:30.720 a deal and testify against him. But the crime starts 362 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:36.319 because Matt's boss was fired him makes a comment, offhand 363 00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:39.039 comment that don't worry, I've got one hundred thousand dollars 364 00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:41.240 in a shoe box buried in the basement or what 365 00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:45.920 he said, something like that, And it's like the creepy 366 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:49.119 couple of guys in Cold Blood. They got it in 367 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:52.039 their head that these people had money and they weren't 368 00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:55.000 going to leave until they got it. And the problem was, 369 00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:59.000 you know, Rickerson lied, he didn't have one hundred thousand dollars. 370 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:02.000 There was no treasure in the basement. But Richard Matt 371 00:23:02.119 --> 00:23:06.119 was not gonna believe it. And William Dickerson was seventy 372 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:09.599 six years old, and they put him in the trunk 373 00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:13.240 of a car and drove him around, and they'd stopped 374 00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:17.559 periodically and beat him. Or actually they did, They shouldn't 375 00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:20.359 say that, because Baits, as far as we know, drove. 376 00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:25.039 Matt did all of the torture. Then they threw him 377 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:26.279 in the trunk of the car. They drove back and 378 00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:29.039 forth between the Buffalo area and Ohio a few times, 379 00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:33.240 and every he would use the stick, the security device 380 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:36.079 that keeps people from stealing your car. He'd beat him 381 00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:39.079 with that, and when he's still, you know, the old 382 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:42.279 man still wouldn't say where the money was, Matt upped 383 00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:46.680 the torturing and he broke Rickerson's fingers, you know, snapping 384 00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:50.599 the aging bones like Brent sticks. And when Rickerson howled 385 00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:54.799 in pain, that got on Matt's nerves. So after it 386 00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:56.200 was more than a day, it was like twenty eight 387 00:23:56.279 --> 00:23:59.039 hours of this this horrible scene, going up and down 388 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:03.880 the roads with this man in agony in the basement, screaming. Finally, 389 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:06.440 Matt got sick of it, realized that they were never 390 00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:09.599 gonna get the money, and they couldn't leave this guy 391 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:12.160 alive because he knew who they were because they hadn't 392 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:14.559 bothered to wear masks, grabbed him by the head and 393 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:18.359 twisted till it snapped, and that was it for William Rickerson. 394 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:22.880 They went to a park near the Niagara River and 395 00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:29.200 hid the body underneath a woodpile, and then later Matt 396 00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:31.680 decided that wasn't good enough, so he went back with 397 00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:35.720 the hacks off and cut the body up into pieces 398 00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:39.400 and through the through the gory chunks into the Niagara River. 399 00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:45.680 Which but that's not where the story stopped, because Matt 400 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.880 gets away to Mexico and his brother's car, and the 401 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:53.960