Speaker 1: Welcome back to Babbelon via the podcast.
Speaker 2: That's reaction through What What What What?
Speaker 3: It? Don't swear in the first minute.
Speaker 4: I know, please don't swear.
Speaker 3: I saw you trying to restrain yourself.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 5: The Babylon podcast was our last best hope for a
Speaker 5: concise discussion. It failed, but in the Year of the
Speaker 5: Great Tangents, it became something better, our last best hope
Speaker 5: for insight the year is twenty twenty six. The place
Speaker 5: wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: But we are reacting in watching episodes of Babylon five.
Speaker 2: We just watched passing through get seventy guests has some
Speaker 2: thoughts about it, or maybe not has thoughts.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what's happening.
Speaker 4: I guess it is real nobody.
Speaker 2: But my name is Jenny.
Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of the show, and I've watched
Speaker 1: it through many times.
Speaker 3: I'm Jen, Okay, clearly, I'm Jan I'm I'm a screenwriter,
Speaker 3: and I am watching it through for the I watched
Speaker 3: it back in the day and i'm watching it again
Speaker 3: now and I don't remember a lot of things.
Speaker 4: I'm guss. We just we just hit a minute.
Speaker 6: What the fuck was I wanted to be the one.
Speaker 4: What the fuck? All right? She was down? So was I.
Speaker 4: I'm an actor, I'm I'm a first time What the fuck?
Speaker 3: What the fuck?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 7: Hi, okay, I'm ali I'm a showrunner, screenwriter, and actress.
Speaker 6: What the fuck was that?
Speaker 4: That's like the great episode? By the way, was that?
Speaker 2: Uh? The Gills? I am gonna remind you about the pilot.
Speaker 2: Do you have any memory of Gills in the pilot?
Speaker 4: I remember people talked about Gills in the pilot. I
Speaker 4: don't remember the context.
Speaker 2: You car had, Yeah, panted done something for some reason
Speaker 2: that he could breathe in exactly so he could breathe
Speaker 2: in like Aliens.
Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, so now she can go hang out with Cash.
Speaker 3: Well she didn't have.
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 6: I think that.
Speaker 7: She died in that yeah, because she said, I must
Speaker 7: have passed out, like now you died. That's my theory
Speaker 7: and I'm sticking to it that she died in the
Speaker 7: pod and they brought her back for purposes that we
Speaker 7: cannot yet know. But she was desperately trying to get
Speaker 7: to the Vorlons.
Speaker 4: She was.
Speaker 2: I mean, I was going to say, there's Lord of
Speaker 2: the Rings all over this episode. Yeah, that actor, as
Speaker 2: you mentioned, has been I can't remember his name.
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, what's his name? Help me? Thank you.
Speaker 2: He has been in Voyager. As you said, he played
Speaker 2: a serial killer and Voyagers had who had to like
Speaker 2: go through meditation and everything to suppress his urges, and
Speaker 2: then in another later episode had to like use his
Speaker 2: serial killer instincts to defend the ship. And like it
Speaker 2: was a whole big thing of just like you mean,
Speaker 2: I haven't open.
Speaker 3: It was early I think it was in season one,
Speaker 3: and then they brought him in and it was like
Speaker 3: they were in the Delta Quattern, so they were like, well,
Speaker 3: we don't, we can't. He was part of the McKee.
Speaker 3: Oh that's great. He was part of the McKey.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he had joined the Markeys because he wanted
Speaker 2: to be like in a door because.
Speaker 3: He liked too many people. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And then.
Speaker 2: I think Tubac helps him learn to restraint himself or
Speaker 2: something teaches about to meditation. Yeah, and then later on
Speaker 2: like somebody comes on the ship and he's killing people
Speaker 2: and he has to kill again, and it's a whole
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 3: Like with Brad Dorrif being like super sweet and cool
Speaker 3: at the beginning, of this is jarring. I mean, he's
Speaker 3: he's a phenomenal actor.
Speaker 4: But I'm like, that's why the eyes yeah.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, oh right right right, yes.
Speaker 2: Now I saw Ali. You were crying during this episode.
Speaker 2: It's a good one.
Speaker 4: That's good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, before we I mean, obviously there's basically one
Speaker 2: main plot in this one, although I guess Lida.
Speaker 4: Gils Sure, yeah, whatever, whatever. Yeah, DA's back and.
Speaker 1: Glowing oozy things out of her eyes.
Speaker 7: Yeah yeah, sure, I guess.
Speaker 3: Sure, sure yeah.
Speaker 4: Other thoughts about this episode really good, really really really
Speaker 4: really really really good, really good, really good, really really good.
Speaker 3: Directed but directed by Adam and Mooy. Who is I always.
Speaker 2: I forget to say this was he is? He?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Okay, he did good.
Speaker 3: He did good. He did up?
Speaker 4: Who wrote?
Speaker 3: Uh jams?
Speaker 4: This is a genus episode this season so far? You're grinning?
Speaker 4: Why are you grinning? Does he write every episode this season?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, I guess, I guess it's time to tell
Speaker 2: you that it's starting about I think the last six
Speaker 2: episodes of the last season he wrote all of them.
Speaker 2: He writes, and I'm gonna just he writes every single
Speaker 2: episode from here until the end of the show. Except
Speaker 2: for one, and I'm just gonna let you guys figure
Speaker 2: out which one he doesn't want it doesn't write?
Speaker 4: Is it two? Ko?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I will literally tell you though. That's the reason
Speaker 2: I'm forgetting to check who writes, because I know it's him, and.
Speaker 3: We've been I've been waiting for you guys to be like,
Speaker 3: he wrote this one too. Yeah, every week in great counsel.
Speaker 7: I would never have noticed, to be honest with you,
Speaker 7: I would never have noticed that.
Speaker 4: I also remember, way back in the day, I asked
Speaker 4: you in the first episode, it's like you've seen them
Speaker 4: write every episode, and Jen, you went not in season one?
Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly, I remember that part.
Speaker 2: Yeah, before we get into this, uh like into this episode,
Speaker 2: then we'll explain to you how this happened, because it
Speaker 2: was not like a non purpose thing. So I think, okay,
Speaker 2: we talked about this recently. They got a late pickup
Speaker 2: basically for season three. Would you guys know what that means.
Speaker 2: I didn't know what that meant, but Jen explained it
Speaker 2: to me. So they got a late pickup, and we
Speaker 2: basically had to have all of the episodes like written
Speaker 2: in time to start filming.
Speaker 3: So JMS wrote the first several they wouldn't give them
Speaker 3: a they wouldn't bridge, but the writing team, you.
Speaker 2: Know exactly, and then Larry to tell you isn't working
Speaker 2: on the show anymore. So he had always planned to
Speaker 2: set aside some scripts for people to like, for freelancers
Speaker 2: to write, but he didn't have an assistant to help
Speaker 2: guide freelancers in how to write for the show. So
Speaker 2: he just kept doing it and doing it and doing
Speaker 2: it until the end of the season. And then once
Speaker 2: season four started, the studio was like, you wrote all
Speaker 2: of those ones, So I mean, we're not going to
Speaker 2: hire writers because you can do it.
Speaker 6: So that's let's work for the death.
Speaker 4: Wait, but what about to Larry, which he was.
Speaker 3: Writing another show I believe, or he was writing on
Speaker 3: another show or something. I think, yeah, yeah, I'm honestly
Speaker 3: not sure.
Speaker 2: Actually I didn't look into that, but you we talked
Speaker 2: a while back about how he and his wife separated.
Speaker 2: This was when that happened around this season. I can't
Speaker 2: do I can't do.
Speaker 4: This, and that yeah, I'm writing, I can't do I can't.
Speaker 7: I can't write this entire show and be married the
Speaker 7: same time.
Speaker 6: That's crazy.
Speaker 2: It was a case of she was like in his
Speaker 2: autobiography when he talks about it, he's like, I kind
Speaker 2: of needed to separate, and she was like, yeah, we're
Speaker 2: kind of separated already, Like I haven't seen you. It's
Speaker 2: just whatever. His hair was not white when the show started.
Speaker 2: It was white by the end of season three.
Speaker 6: He got he got obamaed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 6: Yes, he was under the President of the United States.
Speaker 2: Members would like go to his office and leave vitamins
Speaker 2: on his desk, be like we're not like something is wrong.
Speaker 2: The studio made him do a take a what do
Speaker 2: you call it, basically getting a stress test, like.
Speaker 1: For insurance because they were worried.
Speaker 2: There was an article written in one of the newspapers
Speaker 2: that called him the master and slave of Babylon five.
Speaker 2: Like it was. It was a thing that people were like,
Speaker 2: this is.
Speaker 4: Not this shouldn't be happenings happening.
Speaker 7: No, capital is a crazy bad capitalism is bad, Like
Speaker 7: that should not have been happening to that man.
Speaker 6: That's like, actually.
Speaker 4: It's honestly, because he was like, no, I'm done with
Speaker 4: people side railing my vision. They were just like no, fuck,
Speaker 4: you get thumbscrewed.
Speaker 3: Kind of and it is I mean it's you know,
Speaker 3: it's like it's such are like Ali, you know this too,
Speaker 3: Like you tell somebody how quickly you can write a
Speaker 3: script and they're like, oh great, then I'll give you
Speaker 3: three days next time instead of the normal two weeks.
Speaker 3: Like you know, like I don't tell people how fast
Speaker 3: I write because then they're like, then they take advantage
Speaker 3: of it. I've had that happen and and you know,
Speaker 3: and it is like we've talked about it before and
Speaker 3: like the Taylor Sheridan of it all and how I'm like,
Speaker 3: it's so important to have voices in a room and
Speaker 3: have you know, different voices. This is a show that
Speaker 3: we've talked about from the beginning that like he knew
Speaker 3: where he wanted to go from the beginning, and he
Speaker 3: knew when he wanted to write from the beginning. I
Speaker 3: I still like, you know, and it's hard when you're
Speaker 3: like a showrunner running a show that's like your dream show,
Speaker 3: it's your baby, and and they're saying like cool, look,
Speaker 3: get going, but we don't really have the budget to
Speaker 3: give you a staff. I mean, I've been in that
Speaker 3: situation and I've fought for like anybody to be on
Speaker 3: a staff, and like it will give you two and
Speaker 3: a half people on your staff, and it's really it's hard,
Speaker 3: and it is something that hopefully and thankfully like the
Speaker 3: WGA has been like helping to negotiate that we we
Speaker 3: don't have to take that anymore in a way. But
Speaker 3: also he does know his show well enough. I mean
Speaker 3: I do. I can't imagine there was a little bit
Speaker 3: of like five fine final I'll just write it like
Speaker 3: I know where I want to go with it.
Speaker 1: Anyway, Well I'm sure that's yeah, you know.
Speaker 4: I mean it's not hasn't suffered for it.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly. They have been really good, and it's like,
Speaker 3: you know, and we have this we we do have
Speaker 3: like the characters, the tone, the everything he wants to
Speaker 3: go for. But it is just like it's such a
Speaker 3: shame that he put himself in you know, like almost
Speaker 3: in the hospital, like he.
Speaker 6: It's really not worth it.
Speaker 3: It's not worth it. And you know, like we talk
Speaker 3: all the time about how right now like that it's
Speaker 3: moved in some ways. I mean, showrunners still kill themselves,
Speaker 3: but like it's also moved to like the effects teams
Speaker 3: you know that are just like killing themselves to make
Speaker 3: because ye make television on the you know, two hours
Speaker 3: of television on a tenth of the budget that a
Speaker 3: two hour film would take. And so everybody's working ridiculous
Speaker 3: hours and cruise and you know, and especially if it's
Speaker 3: a show that has effects in it, and so it's
Speaker 3: you know, it's not like it's a new a new
Speaker 3: problem in this industry, but also it sucks. And he
Speaker 3: was like, okay, you know, I'll do let's do it.
Speaker 8: I'll tell yeah, it's his baby, like he's not going
Speaker 8: to give up on it, right, like, and other people
Speaker 8: are relying on like it's the jobs of many people
Speaker 8: and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: But yes, yes, and he has been and we've been
Speaker 3: waiting for you guys to like notice that the right
Speaker 3: most of.
Speaker 4: The first two season. So it wasn't that of the
Speaker 4: ordinary for you to be several in a row.
Speaker 1: But it's yeah, that every except for one. And I'll
Speaker 1: let you guys see.
Speaker 2: If you can spot the one episode now at the
Speaker 2: end of the show, wrote he wrote, ninety two of
Speaker 2: one hundred and ten. Oh my god, it like literally
Speaker 2: broke records. I think the record has been broken since.
Speaker 3: But it was like a it was a probably because
Speaker 3: Taylor Sheridan writes everything for sure and so on. Sorkin's
Speaker 3: name is on every episode of most almost every episode.
Speaker 4: I right, right, right, yeah, good, golly, well he did
Speaker 4: a good job with this one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I thought it was good.
Speaker 2: So I really liked this episode.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really enjoyed this episode.
Speaker 2: And it's one I've talked about this, I think, on
Speaker 2: this podcast before. But I often find shows where you
Speaker 2: have the writer who is not Christian or not religious
Speaker 2: in any way, he has a lot of trouble, Like
Speaker 2: I feel like when they try and write the voices
Speaker 2: of religious people like uh no, like that's no no.
Speaker 2: Where this feels real like, And you know, I do
Speaker 2: know that Jams had time in his life where he
Speaker 2: was Christian, so maybe that's what this is. But it
Speaker 2: definitely feels real.
Speaker 4: Well. He seems to have a lot of respect for
Speaker 4: the institution of religion, even if he himself is not
Speaker 4: particularly religious. You know, he has a very good understanding
Speaker 4: of it and very good, very very strong appreciation for it,
Speaker 4: even if he does not ascribe to it himself, which
Speaker 4: it sounds like he's not particularly religious.
Speaker 3: He's an atheist.
Speaker 1: Jamis explicitly an atheist.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to find the quote I sent you. I
Speaker 2: sent you one of the things from the Lurkers Guide
Speaker 2: that he said to me. Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to
Speaker 2: find it in the Lurkers Guide. Oh there, I found it, okay.
Speaker 2: Is somebody says the like the comment that he was
Speaker 2: replying to was the themes of faith and forgiveness. We're
Speaker 2: worthy of a theologian? Are you sure there isn't something you'd.
Speaker 4: Like to tell us?
Speaker 2: And then he responds, I'll just read the whole response.
Speaker 2: And I've lost people, too many people, lost them to chance, violence, brutality,
Speaker 2: beyond belief. I've seen all the senseless and noble acts
Speaker 2: of God's noblest creatures, and I am incapable of forgiving.
Speaker 2: My feelings are with Jaikar, hand sliced open, saying, of
Speaker 2: the drops of blood flowing from that open wound? How
Speaker 2: do you apologize to them?
Speaker 3: I can't. Then I cannot forgive.
Speaker 2: As an atheist, I believe that all life is unspeakably precious,
Speaker 2: because there it is only here for a brief moment,
Speaker 2: a flare against the dark, and then it's gone forever.
Speaker 2: No afterlives, no second chances, no vacsies. So there can
Speaker 2: be nothing crueler than the abuse, destruction, and want and
Speaker 2: taking of a life. It is a crime no less
Speaker 2: than burning the Mona Lisa, for there is only just
Speaker 2: one of each. So I cannot forgive, which makes the
Speaker 2: notion of writing a character who can forgive momentarily attractive,
Speaker 2: because it allows me to floor in great detail something
Speaker 2: of which I'm utterly incapable. I cannot fly, so I
Speaker 2: would write of birds and starships and kites. I cannot
Speaker 2: play in instruments, so I would write of composers and dancers.
Speaker 2: And I cannot forgive, so I would write of priests
Speaker 2: and monks and minbari.
Speaker 4: I think this guy's got promise as a writer. I
Speaker 4: got some from Yeah that's pretty beautiful.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, that's like a reply on a Usenet forum,
Speaker 2: and it's really fucking beautiful.
Speaker 3: It's interesting because what you were just saying of like
Speaker 3: clearly has some experience in a world of faith and
Speaker 3: a life of faith, but he also has completely renounced it,
Speaker 3: to the point where he's not only completely renounced it,
Speaker 3: but he's just like unwilling to do the thing that
Speaker 3: like he is saying here is one of the most
Speaker 3: paramount things you can do as a person of faith,
Speaker 3: And yeah, you know that. That's just He's like, I
Speaker 3: will never and I can never, so therefore I'm going
Speaker 3: to let other people represent that. It's really kind of interesting.
Speaker 3: It's cool. It's like as opposed to like I can
Speaker 3: only write what I know, it's I have to write
Speaker 3: what I can't do.
Speaker 4: She's crying again. She was moved by the beauty of
Speaker 4: jms's thoughts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was talking my friend Body, Body and
Speaker 2: I often get into Body, is you know, more religious
Speaker 2: than me, and we often talk about that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: And I am not religious anymore, but I did grow
Speaker 2: up in that thing, and I when in this I
Speaker 2: don't have the issue with forgiveness that JMS has, but
Speaker 2: there are things about the faith that I grew up
Speaker 2: in that I desperately miss, sure and I see that
Speaker 2: in this like oh, longing for like a sense of
Speaker 2: certainty or an understanding that I used to have that
Speaker 2: doesn't exist anymore in me.
Speaker 3: That is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I see that in that phrase, in that passage
Speaker 2: that he wrote.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it also makes sense to why he would come
Speaker 4: up with the cheese whiz. Yeah, because it's not it's
Speaker 4: it's not death. It's death. It's not death. Yeah, it's
Speaker 4: like recycling. Yeah, yes, I mean respectively.
Speaker 3: But it's sort of like, well, it's interesting because Garibaldi
Speaker 3: makes the comment of like it being awful, we should
Speaker 3: go back to the death penalty. And if JMS is
Speaker 3: saying what he's saying, then he's also saying like, not
Speaker 3: only is he not capable of forgiveness, he also believes
Speaker 3: every life is precious. So my my read on that
Speaker 3: is that JMS doesn't believe in the death penalty even
Speaker 3: though he can't forgive. So he's created that works through
Speaker 3: that m.
Speaker 2: H trying to like make that contradict sho work if
Speaker 2: they have to pay, and yet making them pay would
Speaker 2: be also a crime.
Speaker 3: Like it's trying to figure that out.
Speaker 4: Well for an eye, dad, right, lenn And you're always conversation.
Speaker 4: She she she she said that she said the thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, where is that originally from?
Speaker 4: I could swear Shakespeare.
Speaker 1: It feels like Shakespeare, but I'm not.
Speaker 3: It says it in here. Hang on, this isn't a thing.
Speaker 3: I Jed's Gandhi already got there.
Speaker 4: That's not Shakespeare. Yeah, okay, that's not Shakespeare.
Speaker 2: De Lennon Gandhi, man.
Speaker 4: Somebody commented. Somebody commented already. I'm guarantee you somebody commented
Speaker 4: in the videos that's.
Speaker 6: Gondi, in which case you always a thousand dollars.
Speaker 4: My bad, you know what.
Speaker 2: You know what the problem is, so many people watch
Speaker 2: the reaction and don't listen to the podcast, and I
Speaker 2: I restrain myself. But there are so many times that
Speaker 2: people are like, go onto these Oh, you have to
Speaker 2: tell them this like we did in the video that
Speaker 2: you didn't watch. Ya, just don't watch that one.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a thousand dollars.
Speaker 3: You know what. We might have talked about it in
Speaker 3: the meme episode. It's possible that we talked about it
Speaker 3: in the meme episode. Yeah, you don't never know.
Speaker 6: You don't know.
Speaker 2: If you don't want, you have to watch everything.
Speaker 7: Otherwise, if you have said something and we've already talked
Speaker 7: about it, you always a thousand dollars.
Speaker 2: Exactly. That's the rules.
Speaker 1: That's a contract to me when you watch this video.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you about to be confident that we didn't talk
Speaker 6: about it.
Speaker 2: I cannot do this in my head. I can't make
Speaker 2: the connection work. At least not while I'm thinking through
Speaker 2: it now, but I feel like there has to be
Speaker 2: something in that conversation that Brother Edward has with the
Speaker 2: lenn especially like the whole the light on the wall
Speaker 2: is a projection of the soul but not the actual soul,
Speaker 2: and then this whole cheese. I feel like there has
Speaker 2: to be a connection, but I can't do the math
Speaker 2: or art. I'm not yeah, to make that work with
Speaker 2: the cheese was or like the idea of forgiveness.
Speaker 4: When like, yeah, kind of like it has to do more.
Speaker 4: I think with his breakdown about how he's still responsible
Speaker 4: for what he's done even if he doesn't. Personality wipe
Speaker 4: doesn't soul wipe because if your if your soul is
Speaker 4: something that is a light shone on a wall, if
Speaker 4: you put a filter up, it's still the same light.
Speaker 4: It's I know, the chance is the wavelength, but it's
Speaker 4: the same light. So even if it looks different, the
Speaker 4: same light, I think is kind of how you can
Speaker 4: apply that.
Speaker 3: I also think that you know, going back to going
Speaker 3: back to oh what was the name of the episode
Speaker 3: with the with the souls and this soul grab soul hunter. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: like with the soul the unter going back to sul
Speaker 3: Hunter and the discovery that like you know in de
Speaker 3: Lene being so like you know, every every soul is precious.
Speaker 3: We believe that every soul is so precious and has
Speaker 3: to be protected that there you know, I like like that.
Speaker 3: Contrast with him saying I don't my soul can't be
Speaker 3: forgiven because I don't even know what to ask forgiveness for,
Speaker 3: because I don't remember the things that a mind wipe
Speaker 3: is the worst possible thing. And then on top of that,
Speaker 3: brother Theo saying no, no, no, it's out of your hands.
Speaker 3: Leave it to God. He can forgive you for the
Speaker 3: things you don't even remember or know about, and then
Speaker 3: using his like whatever I got from the Holy See,
Speaker 3: I can now absolve you of literally everything, and that
Speaker 3: needing to happen essentially before his soul could be collected
Speaker 3: in a ball if you were going back to Theari thing,
Speaker 3: and so you know, it is interesting like her saying
Speaker 3: like our souls are all all souls are connected, and
Speaker 3: all souls are precious, and all souls are part of
Speaker 3: the same thing, even if they're split among places and
Speaker 3: people and things. And so that goes back to like, no,
Speaker 3: the death penalty is bad, yeah, and a mind wipe
Speaker 3: is good. But is it? I don't know.
Speaker 4: Well, But also you know, we got to remember the
Speaker 4: Minbari apply that logic to Minbari souls.
Speaker 2: Nothing the lend doesn't.
Speaker 4: The lend doesn't, which might be partially, but that's the
Speaker 4: only reason the end of the war, it was the
Speaker 4: Minbari souls in humans they think, Jeff specifically.
Speaker 6: I mean, I think, I don't know.
Speaker 7: I've been thinking a lot about forgiveness recently and my
Speaker 7: healing journey. Not to be like always talking about my
Speaker 7: healing journey, but that's where we're at right now.
Speaker 6: That's my hype of fixation.
Speaker 7: So, but like the nature of forgiveness, especially like in
Speaker 7: things where it's like someone has done something that is
Speaker 7: theoretically unforgivable to you, or that it's like shaped you irreparably,
Speaker 7: And there's just been an interesting kind of part of
Speaker 7: the whole experience of like understanding that in part forgiveness
Speaker 7: is so important for the individual because your nervous system
Speaker 7: and your body, if you are unable to forgive and
Speaker 7: let go to a certain extent, creates an overidentification with
Speaker 7: the past that prevents you from creating new neural pathways
Speaker 7: and moving forward with your life, right, it becomes trapped
Speaker 7: in your subconscious and that subconscious patterning becomes becomes action, right,
Speaker 7: and becomes instinct.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 7: So in kind of like unpacking the past and like
Speaker 7: losing identification with the past, because that's not what's happening
Speaker 7: in the present, right, you have to to a certain
Speaker 7: extent in order to move forward and creating new neural
Speaker 7: pathways for yourself, forgive the things that have occurred in
Speaker 7: the past and the people who have owned you, which
Speaker 7: is a very difficult thing to do when you feel
Speaker 7: that things have been very difficult. But then at the
Speaker 7: same time, like, I know people who have done things
Speaker 7: that are very and I won't get into what because
Speaker 7: that's personal, but have done things that are quote unquote unforgivable.
Speaker 7: And people's response to me, as somebody who cares about
Speaker 7: that person is well, such and such like justice will
Speaker 7: probably happen, and in their minds it's a justice thing
Speaker 7: where they're like, they'll probably die in prison though, so
Speaker 7: like it'll be fine. And I'm like, I understand that impulse, right,
Speaker 7: I understand the impulse to tell me that, and I
Speaker 7: understand where it comes from, and that it comes from
Speaker 7: a place of like attempted kindness. But it's like you
Speaker 7: start to realize, unfortunately, when you care about people that
Speaker 7: have done bad things, that like those people still have
Speaker 7: people that care about them. And that's a nuance I
Speaker 7: never really asked to receive in my life. Yeah, ever,
Speaker 7: and like I am not at a point where I
Speaker 7: am in contact with this person, but like it doesn't
Speaker 7: erase the fact that that person meant something to me
Speaker 7: and was there for me at very difficult times in
Speaker 7: my life. It also just recontextualizes that those experiences, though.
Speaker 6: For me in a drastic way. So it's really complicated.
Speaker 7: Life is a lot more complicated than you think it is,
Speaker 7: and it takes like certain experiences for you to realize that.
Speaker 7: And if you are somebody who has not experienced that
Speaker 7: level of complication, I think the gift of having experienced
Speaker 7: how complicated life is and understanding its nuances is that
Speaker 7: you understand its nuances.
Speaker 6: But yeah, but because that's the gift.
Speaker 7: You encounter people who have not and they don't know
Speaker 7: what to say or how to act or what to do,
Speaker 7: and it's like you end up having to be the
Speaker 7: one to kind of if you feel it's worth your
Speaker 7: emotional labor trying to walk them through the nuances and
Speaker 7: complexities of what they're trying to talk about, or you
Speaker 7: just go thank you. In your mind, you just go
Speaker 7: thank you very much for what you meant, which is
Speaker 7: that you were trying to support me.
Speaker 6: But like it's.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so this episode hit pretty damn heart because recently
Speaker 7: I had someone ask me if I wanted to go
Speaker 7: visit this person and whether they could come with me.
Speaker 6: Wow, okay, so it was really interesting.
Speaker 7: That was last night, so and I was like, you know,
Speaker 7: I've been unsure. Yeah, So it was a really interesting
Speaker 7: It's just really interesting how people react to different things.
Speaker 7: And I've just been sitting with the concept of forgiveness,
Speaker 7: especially in this particular instance, and kind of going, how
Speaker 7: do you forgive people that do unforgivable things to you?
Speaker 7: How do you forgive people who you care about who
Speaker 7: do unforgivable things? What does unconditional love actually look like?
Speaker 6: And like.
Speaker 7: How do you encourage people to change? And whether you
Speaker 7: have any control over whether or not they do?
Speaker 3: And unconditional love and forgiveness are two separate things too.
Speaker 3: I mean, you can have unconditional love for a person
Speaker 3: and not forgive them. That is not they're not mutually exclusive.
Speaker 2: And forgive this doesn't mean that you're okay with what happened,
Speaker 2: Like that's yeah, it's just the letting go, like it's.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a complicated question, I think.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 7: For me, I've come to the conclusion that it's like
Speaker 7: I wanted to not want these things to no longer
Speaker 7: be a part of my.
Speaker 6: Internal world.
Speaker 7: And because of that, to a certain extent, you have
Speaker 7: to sit with it to a point where you've processed
Speaker 7: the emotions behind it and then allow it to have
Speaker 7: existed and not be a part of your present or
Speaker 7: inform your Like you you have to say with what
Speaker 7: like Echar totally calls the pain body of it, and
Speaker 7: bring your awareness to that pain body, meaning you have
Speaker 7: to actually fully experience the debt of emotion that that
Speaker 7: brings you and then allow it to no longer inform
Speaker 7: your behavior.
Speaker 6: Which is a difficult you know.
Speaker 7: He's like, learn what you need to learn from it
Speaker 7: and then let it go and don't let it live
Speaker 7: in your body. And what I had learned from keeping
Speaker 7: a lot of pain bodies in my body of like
Speaker 7: things that had happened and things that.
Speaker 6: People had done, and letty dotty dotty dah was.
Speaker 7: That one that was not actually ever impacting that other
Speaker 7: person in any way holding onto that thing at all.
Speaker 7: And because they have no idea whether or not I
Speaker 7: forgive them or care, right, yes, and like to So
Speaker 7: it's only hurting me into like that. A decent portion
Speaker 7: of my stress and illness revolved around my inability to
Speaker 7: let those things go.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 7: So it's like at a certain point you are only
Speaker 7: hurting yourself because you can't and you can't think someone
Speaker 7: into being.
Speaker 6: Sorry, right, you just can't. I mean, it's it's attempting
Speaker 6: to control the uncontrollable.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean for Jenny who works with kids, for
Speaker 3: Ali who's worked in a preschool, for me, who's worked
Speaker 3: in a preschool, Like, you can't. You can't tell a
Speaker 3: kid you better say sorry. There's no point in having
Speaker 3: a young child say they're sorry to another kid if
Speaker 3: they don't actually feel sorry for something. And it's just
Speaker 3: it's empty words. It's you know, so anyway and it
Speaker 3: has no meaning and it doesn't resonate with.
Speaker 6: Them, no, and it doesn't mean that they're not right.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Like I've always said I've said this before, I
Speaker 7: think on this podcast where I'm like, I've sat with
Speaker 7: some pretty dark things that have happened in my life,
Speaker 7: that people have done, and I like, I've had to
Speaker 7: sit with that a lot this year, and I've kind
Speaker 7: of realized that, like, I have no idea the impact
Speaker 7: that I've had on people, I have no control over
Speaker 7: the impact that I've had on people, And like, I
Speaker 7: sit with what has happened, and I'm like, I would
Speaker 7: much rather be in my position than in theirs, because
Speaker 7: I know, like in my heart, I'm like, even if
Speaker 7: they don't acknowledge it in their conscious minds, I have
Speaker 7: done enough work on my nervous system to know the
Speaker 7: body absolutely keeps score and absolutely knows what you did.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, which is like something that.
Speaker 2: Was I mean, in a very literal way was explored
Speaker 2: in this episode of being somebody who didn't do it
Speaker 2: who finds out that there's somebody who did do it,
Speaker 2: Like at the same time, like, how do you just
Speaker 2: waking up and finding out that you have done a
Speaker 2: bunch of heinous things?
Speaker 7: So this episode didn't really impact me that much, not
Speaker 7: at all, didn't really register, didn't really hit.
Speaker 4: That hard, boring episode.
Speaker 6: Why I was completely dry, dry the entire time.
Speaker 7: Once they were like, we got to talk about forgiveness,
Speaker 7: I was like, oh no, oh sure, because no, like
Speaker 7: legit as I've been healing my nervous system hilariously, it
Speaker 7: feels like like there's this weird main character syndrome I've
Speaker 7: been receiving where it's like, well, it's like the things
Speaker 7: I will be working on. It's like I'll suddenly be
Speaker 7: reading a book and it's like, now we have to
Speaker 7: talk about this thing that you have literally been working on.
Speaker 4: And I'm like, that.
Speaker 6: Is that is a lot like And so.
Speaker 2: I was like, I call that the Volvo phenomenon because
Speaker 2: when I got a Volvo, suddenly every car I saw
Speaker 2: was a bulbo.
Speaker 3: Right right right.
Speaker 7: Yeah, And so I know I was literally on a
Speaker 7: run today having a conversation with someone who isn't there
Speaker 7: where I was just like, I need to like let
Speaker 7: go of something that has been weighing on me and
Speaker 7: we'll just talk about it even though I know you're
Speaker 7: not here. But hey, we've discovered, because of quantum mechanics,
Speaker 7: the particles that can impact each other from a distance
Speaker 7: even if they don't see each other. So maybe somehow
Speaker 7: in the ether, they will somehow know that this conversation
Speaker 7: has taking place.
Speaker 6: Who knows but I But I was like.
Speaker 7: For my own benefit, I need to like work through
Speaker 7: this on this run today. And people who passed by
Speaker 7: me probably thought I was insane that.
Speaker 4: I had headphones on it on the phone.
Speaker 6: No, I was.
Speaker 7: It was fine, Okay, sometimes you have to cry on
Speaker 7: a run, and I probably and that's just where you're at. Sometimes.
Speaker 7: Sometimes we were going through it. I saw a guy
Speaker 7: start to cat call me and then got back in
Speaker 7: his car, so act.
Speaker 3: Maybe it was a power move.
Speaker 6: To have a conversation with someone who's not here.
Speaker 3: I've done it. I've been walking through the streets of
Speaker 3: downtown to trap by myself at night, screaming out loud
Speaker 3: and having a conversation with myself kept anybody from bugging me.
Speaker 4: Sometimes that would work.
Speaker 6: Sometimes I got so yeah.
Speaker 7: Then I was like, and then we popped on this episode,
Speaker 7: it was like, we're going to talk about forgiveness today,
Speaker 7: and I was like, obviously, when we talk about why
Speaker 7: would we talk about anything else today.
Speaker 2: One of the things I really loved love in this
Speaker 2: episode is seeing Bruce Sheridan, like, no, he knows like
Speaker 2: he's seeing Brother Edward on the one side. Like when
Speaker 2: he's yes, I'm going to say like in the obviously
Speaker 2: we don't have mind wipes in the real world, but
Speaker 2: like let's imagine like it's somebody who's done the work
Speaker 2: and they've healed and they've gotten better, and he sees
Speaker 2: them on one side, and then he sees the other.
Speaker 4: Guy on both sides.
Speaker 2: After like on both sides, and but he know, like
Speaker 2: he only is seeing him having done the work. He
Speaker 2: had a mind wipe at the very beginning of it,
Speaker 2: having lived through the pain of what he did. And
Speaker 2: that's that is like, that's that nuance. I feel like
Speaker 2: that you're talking about of Oh, if you've seen like
Speaker 2: done gone through the suffering and you meet somebody who's
Speaker 2: only met the person after they've gotten like done the work,
Speaker 2: you're like, no, you have to hate them, and they're like,
Speaker 2: well no, because yeah, like they're a good person now.
Speaker 3: And brother, you calling him out for it, like look
Speaker 3: look in that moment of like what were you just singing?
Speaker 4: Yes, just like it was his fucking hand, you clown, he.
Speaker 3: Said, I'm gonna call him brother Obi Wan from here
Speaker 3: on out though, because he just makes me I can't
Speaker 3: very much.
Speaker 4: Does He's always going to be draw one for me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 4: But I like brother obi Wan as well.
Speaker 7: And it was brilliant nuanced too, because I think people
Speaker 7: are very quick to judge people they don't know.
Speaker 6: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 7: It's a much more because I mean, listen, that guy
Speaker 7: killed one person, the other guy killed nine, including somebody
Speaker 7: he was related to.
Speaker 4: And then I killed one person in a very targeted,
Speaker 4: revenge oriented way, yeah.
Speaker 7: Which you know Garibaldi probably would have been behind before and.
Speaker 3: As if he Yeah, and he killed him as the
Speaker 3: proxy for all of those people. Like that's the thing too.
Speaker 3: It's like, we've been looking for you for nine years
Speaker 3: and you represent the pain that all of us feel
Speaker 3: like you didn't get the justice you deserved and I'm
Speaker 3: the only one willing to willing to do the thing
Speaker 3: that needs to be done. He was, in a sense,
Speaker 3: he was also representing the like do you have the
Speaker 3: courage to stay? Because he was there, I wasn't ready
Speaker 3: to go through the act, and he was like, I
Speaker 3: have the courage. I'm the only one who was the
Speaker 3: courage to stay, and do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost a backwards version of like some weird
Speaker 2: inverted version of Atonient, like he did the punishment, you know,
Speaker 2: Jesus took on the sins of the world. This guy
Speaker 2: did this sin like it was I don't know how
Speaker 2: to explain it.
Speaker 4: It was also, by the way, not lost on me
Speaker 4: that when we get to see Brother Edward, he is,
Speaker 4: you know, crucified. Yes, that was not lost on me.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 7: And it's an interesting thing of like, but there's like
Speaker 7: this all these like concepts and stuff that I've you know,
Speaker 7: I've been reading a lot about fucking forgiveness for someson,
Speaker 7: and like, you know, there's this idea of like, you
Speaker 7: know that if soul contracts exist, like, there are people
Speaker 7: that enter your life to do things to you, to
Speaker 7: move your soul forward in some way, and those things
Speaker 7: can be really traumatic and negative. And I'm not saying
Speaker 7: that like everything happens for really like la la la.
Speaker 7: It's a very that's a very broad oversimplification of what
Speaker 7: I think I've landed on personally. And whatever you all
Speaker 7: want to land on personally is your choice. Please do
Speaker 7: not come for me and my coping skill. Okay, this
Speaker 7: is my coping skill and I've had a hard go
Speaker 7: so I'm allowed to cope how I need to cope.
Speaker 7: But like, this was an interesting thing that I stumbled
Speaker 7: upon that I kind of am vibing with right now,
Speaker 7: where they're like, yeah, you kind of make predetermined contracts
Speaker 7: with some it's in some ways to like have certain
Speaker 7: things happen to your soul for your soul to learn.
Speaker 7: Right if we're like the universe experiencing itself, like the
Speaker 7: universe has to experience pain, and sometimes you like do
Speaker 7: sign up for those things in advance, and it's like
Speaker 7: you're in a way it's empowering because you're like, I
Speaker 7: am not necessarily a Things don't happen to me, they
Speaker 7: happen for me. And I've gotten to a place in
Speaker 7: my healing journey where I'm like, I even if somebody
Speaker 7: gave me a button, it was like, you can undo
Speaker 7: all the bad things that have ever happened to you.
Speaker 7: I'm like, well, I would not press that button at
Speaker 7: this point in my life because that would mean that
Speaker 7: I am not the person that I am today, right,
Speaker 7: do you know what I mean?
Speaker 6: And that's what they mean when they're like it's happening
Speaker 6: for you in a way, and I'm like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a that's a weird I have And it's
Speaker 2: not exactly the same with suffering.
Speaker 1: But I remember a moment in my life, you know.
Speaker 2: As I said, grew up religious but also grew gay,
Speaker 2: and there was a lot of my life where I
Speaker 2: was trying to ungay myself. And there was a certain
Speaker 2: moment in my life where I remember it distinctly being like, no,
Speaker 2: because I don't know who that person is. I have
Speaker 2: no idea who the person is who's not gay, and
Speaker 2: me like that doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 3: And it's so even and at that time I was.
Speaker 2: Still religious, Like even though it's difficult and it makes
Speaker 2: my life really hard, Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 3: Know what to do.
Speaker 7: I would not be I would be a completely different person,
Speaker 7: and I honestly don't think i'd be a much worse person,
Speaker 7: Like I don't think I would understand the nuances of
Speaker 7: being alive and the way that I do. And like,
Speaker 7: so it's it's this complicated thing where you're like, in
Speaker 7: a weird way, if you are doing healing in a
Speaker 7: particular way, you become almost you become understanding of your
Speaker 7: experiences in a different you form a different relationship to it,
Speaker 7: I should say.
Speaker 6: I think it's like it's.
Speaker 7: Not necessarily gratitude, but there is like an underlying layer
Speaker 7: of that where you're like grateful for the person you became.
Speaker 6: And it's like, okay, that's complicated.
Speaker 7: That becomes even more complicated, right, like where you're like, okay,
Speaker 7: so when things happen, there is an there are like
Speaker 7: multiple layers to do everything. Does that make sense what
Speaker 7: I'm trying to say. Yeah, it's like forming new understandings
Speaker 7: for new Like when when when our dog passed away,
Speaker 7: somebody said to me about grief. They were like, you're
Speaker 7: you still have a relationship with that dog. It's just
Speaker 7: that you're forming a new relationship with them within their
Speaker 7: new identity as a dead person. And it's kind of
Speaker 7: like that with trauma in a way where you're like,
Speaker 7: I'm forming a new relationship with it decade a decade
Speaker 7: or more or less with it now where I'm like, okay,
Speaker 7: those things that have happened, like ultimately you took those
Speaker 7: things and created an amazing life out of it, and like,
Speaker 7: so my relationship to it is like it no longer
Speaker 7: controls me. I'm empowered over it, and I'm like a
Speaker 7: co creator of it as opposed to like because I
Speaker 7: took it and like learned from it and created my
Speaker 7: life from it.
Speaker 6: And so I'm not a victim. I'm a co creator.
Speaker 6: Does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Just for yeah, just for clarification, because people listening to this,
Speaker 2: I know it's a whole podcast, Well no, they know
Speaker 2: PD that is your previous.
Speaker 7: Also, do not look to me for therapy advice, Like,
Speaker 7: I don't know. I'm not a professional. I am back
Speaker 7: here in my nervous system, wiring it with with like
Speaker 7: three manuals, trying my best. Like we're trying a little
Speaker 7: bit of everything and seeing what works. But you know,
Speaker 7: forgiveness has been a big uh, and like forming a
Speaker 7: new relationship to victimization is a whole thing right now
Speaker 7: for me.
Speaker 4: So front of mind, here's something I thought was interesting
Speaker 4: the first when Edward was like, nah, a guy, I
Speaker 4: gotta go. I gotta pay for this. I gotta pay
Speaker 4: for this. I was like, you are paying for this.
Speaker 4: It's like you you are doing things, you are helping people,
Speaker 4: you are doing good. That is the paying for it.
Speaker 4: And then when he was doing his whole speech about
Speaker 4: I got so many a there was a part of
Speaker 4: me it was like, okay, but to an extent, you
Speaker 4: took the easy way out by just kind of succumbing
Speaker 4: to the guilt and letting these things happen. But then
Speaker 4: I thought about it more because I like to think
Speaker 4: about things, and I go, oh, he has he has decided. Understandably,
Speaker 4: these victims' families will never rest until I am properly
Speaker 4: cared for taking care of However, probably so so, because
Speaker 4: at first it's like, well, you died for nothing. You died,
Speaker 4: You just robbed the world of like of a wonderful
Speaker 4: civil servant, you know, or Glass or a Gammi maker.
Speaker 4: Then I went, oh, no, wait a minute, Okay, he
Speaker 4: elected to let himself die even though he himself didn't
Speaker 4: exactly carry out these crimes because these other people clearly.
Speaker 3: It was for their benefits.
Speaker 4: Yeah, which, yeah, completely recon sexualizes it in my mind.
Speaker 4: Actually took a minute to think about it, because at
Speaker 4: first I was like, well, this is nice, but I
Speaker 4: don't think this was the right choice. And then I
Speaker 4: was like, well, this is nice, and now it's a
Speaker 4: complicated choice.
Speaker 2: Well, yes, I was just gonna say, Also, I feel
Speaker 2: like for him like because of the way they reprogrammed
Speaker 2: their personalities, they want to live a life of service.
Speaker 2: He was he was happy, Yes, right, so that for
Speaker 2: him is not suffering, Like that's not punishment that he wants.
Speaker 3: To Does it matter what?
Speaker 4: Like I read this, I read you go ahead, then
Speaker 4: I'll then I'll say, no, that's it, Like.
Speaker 2: It's because that's the whole idea like that we have
Speaker 2: of prisons. Should prisons before a punishment or should they
Speaker 2: be for like.
Speaker 3: What do you call it? What's the other word?
Speaker 2: Rehabilitation, rehability, rehabilitation, And people in like you know, America
Speaker 2: and Canada do a certain get get very upset when
Speaker 2: they see like Nordic prisons. It's like, but they're not suffering.
Speaker 4: It's like they're doing are getting mandatory. What what I
Speaker 4: was gonna say was I read this hilarious. The other
Speaker 4: day I saw this. It was like a tweet or
Speaker 4: not not a tweet, but you know, a blue sky
Speaker 4: or something that was a quote of some story from
Speaker 4: some time. This is I don't know, it's it's it's
Speaker 4: our it's a whatever where this guy was the story
Speaker 4: of this guy. He goes a rich guy goes to
Speaker 4: his rabbi, and he says, hey, you know, Rabbi, I
Speaker 4: want to I want to start an orphanage and I
Speaker 4: want to I want to help the needy kids. His
Speaker 4: rabbi says, it's great. You should absolutely do that. You
Speaker 4: should take you know, if you want to take some
Speaker 4: of your enormous amounts of money and start an orphanage,
Speaker 4: you should absolutely do that. And then a month later
Speaker 4: the guy comes back with the rabbits Rabbi, listen, I
Speaker 4: realized I shouldn't do this. I shouldn't start the orphanage.
Speaker 4: I only wanted to start orphanage because it would make
Speaker 4: me look better, and it wasn't for the kids. It
Speaker 4: was for me. And I wanted to start an orphanage
Speaker 4: for myself because I wanted people to think I was
Speaker 4: the kind of guy who would make kids lives better.
Speaker 4: And the rabbi says, who gives a shit? Are you
Speaker 4: the kids don't care?
Speaker 2: I know exactly exactly like I had that thought when
Speaker 2: watching Good The Good Place. It's like Tohani did still
Speaker 2: raise a lot of money, Like why is it? Why
Speaker 2: does it sorry spoilers for whatever.
Speaker 3: Why why is the fact.
Speaker 1: That she raised the money because it would make her
Speaker 1: look good.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: My thought process the guy was, I was like, Okay,
Speaker 4: you are doing this because you were programmed to do it,
Speaker 4: You're still doing it.
Speaker 3: It's the opposite of impact. It mitigates intent. Like it like, yeah,
Speaker 3: if you say, oh, I'm sorry, I hurt your feelings,
Speaker 3: but I didn't mean to, so I'm okay, it's the
Speaker 3: opposite of this. It's like, well, I didn't I did
Speaker 3: this for the wrong reasons, but I still did the thing,
Speaker 3: and that the thing, the action, is still more important
Speaker 3: than the fact that you did it for the wrong
Speaker 3: reasons because the action that's actually affecting change.
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, like that that sorry thing you were talking
Speaker 2: about earlier. That's how I explained it to kids. It's like,
Speaker 2: I know you didn't mean to step on his foot,
Speaker 2: but his foot was stepped on. Do you think that
Speaker 2: felt good?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Do you feel bad that it felt bad? Yeah? Okay,
Speaker 2: then you can say sorry because it felt bad for them,
Speaker 2: Like you don't have to. Saying sorry does not mean
Speaker 2: you did it on purpose.
Speaker 4: It just means had an effect.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry you had pain that I was the call like,
Speaker 2: that's yeah.
Speaker 4: We soon should let you guys. Great, counsel so that
Speaker 4: we can do the out of there. But before we
Speaker 4: do that, Lida walked out of a ore lineh rolled up.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, I threatened to ship out of Lano A
Speaker 4: plus amazing scene. God bless Patricia Talman. She's my favorite
Speaker 4: person in the world. I love Talia Winters Andrea Thompson
Speaker 4: great whatever, Yeah, sure, okay, Patricia Tomman leda Alexander a.
Speaker 1: Fight while we have the great cancel.
Speaker 4: I can see it right now, you know, fictional, Well
Speaker 4: you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Yes, no, no, no, I'm talking between it's Alia and Da
Speaker 2: that's gonna be the fighting or Talia Alida Alia.
Speaker 6: She's my favorite person in the world and.
Speaker 4: His wife I feel how do you feel about Talia
Speaker 4: Winter's Alley favorite person in the world. There you go,
Speaker 4: there you uh?
Speaker 9: And then she was.
Speaker 4: She was getting vorlon directly applied directly to the forehead.
Speaker 7: And it was it being sucked into her or was
Speaker 7: she being sucked into it? It came out of her
Speaker 7: which direction where we're going.
Speaker 4: And now directly into and she got the fucking gills
Speaker 4: and we're right into Caush's fucking face hole.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm looking for my closest dark crystal toys which
Speaker 3: are actually not reachable, but yet she was giving the
Speaker 3: essence sucked out of her like a gulfling? What adling?
Speaker 4: What a fuck? Who was any of that? Yeah, she's
Speaker 4: clearly addicted to Vorlon or on Vorlon life support or something,
Speaker 4: or CAUs is like vamporizing her. Is this like a
Speaker 4: fucking White Court vampire sort of thing? Do people get
Speaker 4: addicted to the Vorlons and then they have to follow
Speaker 4: around and the Borlon's feet off of their energy?
Speaker 7: Is this a fucking tom and assuming dress and angels
Speaker 7: that it's not a negative thing.
Speaker 4: I don't know. It looked pretty bad.
Speaker 6: I don't think it was that I'd look good. I
Speaker 6: think I think it's possible that he just kind of,
Speaker 6: like you know, gets carried around.
Speaker 4: He used the brain suck monster after all.
Speaker 7: Sorry, go ahead, And maybe sometimes he needs to be
Speaker 7: incognito and he needs to just occupy somebody's mind for
Speaker 7: a little while.
Speaker 4: Is he just riding her around like a flesh puppet?
Speaker 6: Yeah kind of think so that's my theory.
Speaker 3: Flesh puppet.
Speaker 4: Okay, what's that cool? Well?
Speaker 6: I think they brought her back to life in exchange, like.
Speaker 4: You're gonna be little.
Speaker 7: Orleans have a history of using people to their purposes,
Speaker 7: right with Jack the Ripper as an example. Right, Lada
Speaker 7: the Ripper needs to be present in order to help
Speaker 7: them do something, maybe fight the csichor.
Speaker 4: It's weird. Oh wait a minute, Oh the cash will
Speaker 4: protect me because okay, because he's in her is she
Speaker 4: just carrying caush arounds?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Sometimes he's just carrying cash around.
Speaker 6: I think sometimes weird. I think sometimes she's a flash,
Speaker 6: like she's a mean suit.
Speaker 7: Like okay, like theoretically right that like Lowy's stuff is
Speaker 7: probably like soul as example, right, I mean that they're
Speaker 7: usually sold talking about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, kaush dar Huran, what's going on? Like like like
Speaker 4: another wheel of time reference. I'm sorry for all the
Speaker 4: non wheel of time people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So keep all.
Speaker 4: This in the comment comments about how much you hate
Speaker 4: the wheel of time at us because it helps stop
Speaker 4: talking about it.
Speaker 3: We know, we know we're not going to stop talking
Speaker 3: about it.
Speaker 4: We're not going to I'm sorry, best I can okay, okay.
Speaker 1: Well, but I do want to get to the Great Cantil.
Speaker 1: But there's like three other things I want to talk
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 6: Guys, say, I can't remember what I got interrupted.
Speaker 4: I can't remember it all.
Speaker 6: Okay, probably wasn't that important.
Speaker 3: That's all right.
Speaker 1: The first one is going to be real quick.
Speaker 2: I just always thought it was a funny thing that
Speaker 2: brother Edward says at the very beginning of the episode
Speaker 2: where they're joking about gambling, He's like, I've always done.
Speaker 3: If you want to go for the sin, you got
Speaker 3: to go for the big one.
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, serial killer, Yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: The second big thing I want to talk about is
Speaker 2: this episode almost didn't happen, and people, I bet you
Speaker 2: there've already been comments with people.
Speaker 3: Telling you.
Speaker 4: The Patreon right now.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. The reason this episode almost didn't happen is
Speaker 2: because of something we've talked about before is he started
Speaker 2: writing this episode, I think in season two, and somebody
Speaker 2: accidentally suggested the concept of the episode.
Speaker 1: To him while he was writing it, and he was.
Speaker 2: Like, fuck, I can't write it now because like they're
Speaker 2: gonna think that I wrote them, and then it's going
Speaker 2: to be a whole big thing. He literally got them, it,
Speaker 2: says finally, very chagrined over what happened, the individual gave
Speaker 2: me a notarized form explaining the situation, and at that
Speaker 2: point he was able to reactivate.
Speaker 4: Sorry, this is why, this is why writers can't listen
Speaker 4: to other people's ideas.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this is why you can't.
Speaker 4: This is why you can't.
Speaker 3: This is why we can't take that story ideas ever ever, ever.
Speaker 7: Ever, ever, ever had people pitched up to me and
Speaker 7: I'm like, I have to interrupt you right here, because
Speaker 7: you're we're going down a path of something I'm already
Speaker 7: actively working on.
Speaker 4: Glad we got to write it because this was a banger,
Speaker 4: not just because Leada came back and the fucking Gils
Speaker 4: what the fuck?
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but he literally had to get like a
Speaker 2: notarized form from them explaining it. It was like, it's
Speaker 2: just this whole thing.
Speaker 6: I just decided to leader Leader yeah, because like why.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of a New Zealand version of Leader
Speaker 3: Leader Leader it does yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And then the final thing, I want to ask if
Speaker 2: you have any thoughts about we got You were very
Speaker 2: interested while it happened, but then the episode is really
Speaker 2: good and you forgot about it.
Speaker 3: The lore that was dropped years ago.
Speaker 4: May not of Minbari, what the would not women born women?
Speaker 4: But he was human? Was he transmuted from another species?
Speaker 2: Is this the thing?
Speaker 4: Is this like a Jeff kind of thing where he
Speaker 4: was born into another another species?
Speaker 3: I mean, we did that stantiation, but we did we
Speaker 3: did have we did have this in the same episode
Speaker 3: that was very Jesus heavy and there's a like, yeah,
Speaker 3: so it's like of.
Speaker 9: Me but not of me?
Speaker 4: And was he soul born into another body like a
Speaker 4: Jeff kind of thing?
Speaker 2: Was he?
Speaker 4: Maybe? Was he?
Speaker 3: Wait?
Speaker 4: What did you say born into another memory? Sold into
Speaker 4: another body? Because that's what like the same kind of
Speaker 4: thing is with Jeff.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, I mean I know the answer. I'm these
Speaker 1: are very right.
Speaker 4: If that's Minbari not of Minbari, I don't know. Maybe
Speaker 4: yeah that could work.
Speaker 3: Yeah did work? Yeah? No, I know, Okay, I know what.
Speaker 3: I'm like, you're saying it, and I'm like totally getting
Speaker 3: I'm getting distracted because I'm hearing of the Ayel and
Speaker 3: not of the.
Speaker 4: What is that?
Speaker 3: Why is that? I was doing? I know more wheel Tip.
Speaker 3: It's the nineties.
Speaker 2: It's the nineties, and all these male writers writing in
Speaker 2: the nineties the exact same story.
Speaker 3: Of the blood, but raised not of the bloud. He's blood. Yes,
Speaker 3: three hundred years.
Speaker 2: We actually looked earlier.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah they lived no, not that not that long.
Speaker 2: But they live longer than humans, but not they're not
Speaker 2: like not thousands of years.
Speaker 4: Okay, So he was around a thousand years ago? Yeah, possibly, Jeff.
Speaker 2: Style mm hmm, had we had We've heard the number
Speaker 2: one thousand before, like a thousand years ago.
Speaker 3: Before we have got from.
Speaker 4: I was gonna say shadows, shadows. Okay, so he was
Speaker 4: around for shadow time. Okay, he was there when the
Speaker 4: shadow Man came.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, the shadow Man.
Speaker 4: They came and they stole the shadow Man.
Speaker 3: Uh, bring me a shadow.
Speaker 4: Okay. They can can they track soul? They can kind
Speaker 4: of track souls? No, they can't track souls? Can they
Speaker 4: kind of try?
Speaker 3: Oh them just like your car? Yes, can trap them
Speaker 3: in little glass balls.
Speaker 4: They trap him and little No the guy did hi
Speaker 4: peity Hello, oh God?
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, Wow, we talked about the tracking souls before,
Speaker 2: but we never fully decided on Wow, he just fully
Speaker 2: decided here.
Speaker 3: Now can join us? Yeah.
Speaker 4: They bring up Balen a lot.
Speaker 6: Yeah, sorry, Bobby, you can go back down. I'm sorry,
Speaker 6: I need to grab your face.
Speaker 4: How many times is Valain come up?
Speaker 3: And isn't that what what Lanier said? When when didn't
Speaker 3: he say Valen? When when Cosh turned into an angel's name.
Speaker 4: Name or something like?
Speaker 3: I think he said Valerio Valria. That's right, that's what.
Speaker 4: That's always fucking Valeria Valeria and the Valor and Valen.
Speaker 4: It's always v A L. What do these science fiction
Speaker 4: fantasy writers have with V A L? What is going on?
Speaker 2: It sounds, it feels very it feels very good in
Speaker 2: your mouth. Hilarious speaking of things that feel good in
Speaker 2: your mouth.
Speaker 3: Anyway, thank you for but finishing. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: Definitely getting the explicit tag unemployable. Yes, hey, I'm not
Speaker 2: trying to work in the entertainment industry.
Speaker 3: Is cool?
Speaker 2: I have an avatar.
Speaker 1: They can't see my.
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, I don't know Valaen. I don't know what else.
Speaker 4: This is the one thing that I can't figure it.
Speaker 4: I don't know he apparently he did it. He was.
Speaker 2: No, sorry, your face got real serious.
Speaker 3: I was like, what happened?
Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, never mind, it's not worth following.
Speaker 4: I don't think it's well, no, it's a stretch. It
Speaker 4: doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: Okay, I wanted to stretch, but never mind, I won't
Speaker 1: force the stretch because she never forced the stretch.
Speaker 3: It's bad, but I most only we had a telepath
Speaker 3: in the room who couldn't no, no, no, thank you.
Speaker 6: Let it go, or I'll burn every synaps you have.
Speaker 4: That was a good scene.
Speaker 2: I like that one. I like her.
Speaker 4: She's cool. No, yeah, Valain came up, did a Jeff thing.
Speaker 4: I guess maybe a thousand years ago he did a
Speaker 4: Jeff thing, did a Jeff thing. If he was if
Speaker 4: he was a Minbarry, she put out of him. No,
Speaker 4: if he was, if he was of the Minbari but
Speaker 4: not he was the Minbari but not of the Minbari,
Speaker 4: then it would make sense he was born into another
Speaker 4: species the same way that the minbar and Jeff.
Speaker 3: They just discovered that. Like I have to just say, like,
Speaker 3: maybe they just discovered that and they never understood what
Speaker 3: it meant, like word of the blood rates blood or whatever,
Speaker 3: because Liner said it like he's been like saying it
Speaker 3: his whole life.
Speaker 4: Yes, but maybe they were like humans really, you know,
Speaker 4: because I feel like that's kind of thing where if
Speaker 4: it had been happening elsewhere, they were like, yeah, sure,
Speaker 4: you know, this happens every now and again humans, What
Speaker 4: the fuck?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah right right, so okay, I could see that
Speaker 1: that those are all the things.
Speaker 2: I literally highlighted them in my notes because the amount
Speaker 2: of times I've gotten to Great Council and realized I
Speaker 2: forgot to ask you something.
Speaker 3: Something. When you listen to Great Council, you'll hear Jenny say,
Speaker 3: oh shit, I forgot to ask them about the.
Speaker 4: Thing, like we'll be back. We'll be back in like
Speaker 4: thirty minutes.
Speaker 1: That's true, probably yes, yes, so yeah, so go away
Speaker 1: not PDPD can.
Speaker 4: See he can stay with the camera on the seat.
Speaker 4: O cay f, I'm talking about my friends.
Speaker 9: You have reached the most dangerous part of our journey,
Speaker 9: the Gray Council. Here we speak of things that must
Speaker 9: not be spoken, secrets, betrayals, spoilers. If you are not ready,
Speaker 9: turned back now that if you dare to proceed, I
Speaker 9: promise you it will be.
Speaker 4: Manificent. We forget a baldy.
Speaker 1: Well, damn, some.
Speaker 2: Of it's so wrong, some of it's so fucking right,
Speaker 2: And I think you don't even remember the stuff that's
Speaker 2: fucking right.
Speaker 3: I probably don't. But also when he was like Balin's
Speaker 3: like Jeff and I was like, oh, I was, I
Speaker 3: wasn't paying attention, did you just I know, I think
Speaker 3: it was my acting how it was an emmy it
Speaker 3: was good.
Speaker 2: And then I was like, oh, yeah, it's just.
Speaker 3: Like a thing from Wheel of Time. That's why it
Speaker 3: triggered me, because I literally didn't know what to say.
Speaker 2: I was just like, yeah, yeah, I know he called it.
Speaker 2: And then but but he doesn't quite know what he's called.
Speaker 2: Like he's saying it like it's it's like a Jeff.
Speaker 3: It's literally the kind of thing that happened with Jeff.
Speaker 3: But I was just literally like I he said it,
Speaker 3: and I just stopped breathing, and I was like, it's
Speaker 3: all over my face. It's all over my face. Pretend
Speaker 3: I stuff. I wasn't listening. What Yeah, yeah, I did
Speaker 3: the dumb blonde.
Speaker 1: But you are literally right, it's Minbari, not a Minbari
Speaker 1: ieel of the blood, but not raised by it, like
Speaker 1: it's the same.
Speaker 2: It's the same thing. It's you know, yeah, and I mean,
Speaker 2: which is a Jesus thing God and Cardet raised by
Speaker 2: you like it's a whole bit. So yes, the other
Speaker 2: thing that Ali got right is he's just she's just
Speaker 2: carrying cash around. Yes, that's literally what she's doing. She's
Speaker 2: carrying now, it's probably not all of cost, but she's
Speaker 2: carrying pieces of because she, like the Vorlin, can split
Speaker 2: their consciousness a bit and they will put it in
Speaker 2: because they're not corporeal, right, so they put their consciousness
Speaker 2: in her. And that's going to be a big thing.
Speaker 2: That is at the end, when Kosh dies, she doesn't
Speaker 2: have any of caution her, but Bruce does. Sheridan has
Speaker 2: a piece of caution him that he does he's unaware of.
Speaker 3: He doesn't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then later on it becomes important that because
Speaker 2: after Kush is dead, he still has that piece of caution.
Speaker 3: Him for a bit. Also. It was the first example
Speaker 3: of of of Bruce using of Sheridan using Lyda. Yes,
Speaker 3: I was really uncomfortable with that. I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: it just felt like it was like get in your telebat, bitch.
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's just yes, but he it's.
Speaker 2: Not this one. I mean, obviously it's this one is
Speaker 2: I don't think she's upset about it.
Speaker 3: I know it's fine. It is a through line. It's
Speaker 3: a through line with him that I see. And it
Speaker 3: felt like where it felt like the opening the floodgates
Speaker 3: of it, and and the permissive moment of it of
Speaker 3: being like, oh, I'm allowing it now, So we're just
Speaker 3: going to make this third normal thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's been like debates in my server about this
Speaker 2: affair bit. But yeah, I just it's I really like Sheridan.
Speaker 2: I actually I very much adore him. I think he's
Speaker 2: fantastic too. This is to me, his character flawed. Is
Speaker 2: not seeing telepaths as fully their tools in his mind.
Speaker 2: I don't, at least the way I perceive him. And
Speaker 2: I just think that it's a thing that you can
Speaker 2: see is evidence where he'll just like.
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, here you are.
Speaker 2: But like and then what he doesn't want her around?
Speaker 2: He doesn't even think about her. Yeah, Like yeah, it's
Speaker 2: just you know, it's yeah, weird, it is. No, it's
Speaker 2: just it's uncomfortable for me.
Speaker 3: Yeah. The other thing that they didn't bring up, and
Speaker 3: I was like fine with that. It's really funny because
Speaker 3: I'm been hesitant to bring it up. We have not
Speaker 3: seen Marcus since the first episode, no, and you know,
Speaker 3: and he's there at the top of show, and I'm
Speaker 3: just waiting for them to be like, oh is he
Speaker 3: is he going to be? I mean, they keep saying
Speaker 3: about KINNICKI, but like, is he going to be the
Speaker 3: new the new Keffer, which he's not, but like, but
Speaker 3: he's really not. I keep and I don't remember the
Speaker 3: order and the timing of things. So every episode I'm
Speaker 3: like about to say the word Marcus, and I don't
Speaker 3: want to say it, like I'm so familiar. I don't
Speaker 3: want to be like because right now it looks like
Speaker 3: he's gonna pull a keffort. So I haven't been wanting
Speaker 3: to mention him, but uh, I'm really desperate to get
Speaker 3: back to him. I love me some ranger.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Marcus great, I really like he loves Marcus. I
Speaker 2: like Marcus. I think Marcus is neat. He's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: other things spoiler worthy of talking. Oh, just going back
Speaker 2: to Leda, Ali thinks Leda died.
Speaker 3: No, she didn't die. She was almost unconscious.
Speaker 2: It's not.
Speaker 3: They're not that level.
Speaker 2: Although we do get a first one kind of raising
Speaker 2: someone from the dead in Bruce, but sort of but
Speaker 2: not really but kind of sort of. They read whatever
Speaker 2: they like, re did what was in him? Basically, what
Speaker 2: does he say? I blew on the embers of life
Speaker 2: that were still in him minutes.
Speaker 3: Something like that.
Speaker 2: I can't remember the exact words, but anyway, the point
Speaker 2: is Leader was not almost unconscious. But the other spoilery
Speaker 2: thing to talk about is Garibaldi's thoughts about the cheese was.
Speaker 2: And I am gonna just because I know that there
Speaker 2: are people like there are people who watch the reaction
Speaker 2: who don't necessarily listen to the podcast, the people who
Speaker 2: listen to the podcast that don't watch the reaction the
Speaker 2: cheese was. What that's referring to is at one point
Speaker 2: during one of the segments, guest said something about adding
Speaker 2: personality to somebody, and I am very old, and I
Speaker 2: remember a commercial from the eighties about cheese Whiz at
Speaker 2: personality personality. Remember, so I animated it as cheese Whiz
Speaker 2: as like when they mind wipe you and give you
Speaker 2: a new personality.
Speaker 3: I animated it as cheese Whiz going into a brain.
Speaker 2: And so now when we talk about the mind like
Speaker 2: new personality thing, we talk about cheese Whiz, Garibaldi is
Speaker 2: going to become intimately uh involved in the cheese Whiz
Speaker 2: when Bester does a ship to his brain and basically
Speaker 2: changes his personality and makes him betray Sheridan, but that's
Speaker 2: going to happen next season.
Speaker 1: It's just very interesting here in Garibaldi talk about how
Speaker 1: much he thinks.
Speaker 2: It's horrible, hates this, Yeah, and it's great, but he
Speaker 2: doesn't think it's Yeah, he doesn't think it's horrible for
Speaker 2: the reasons of what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: He thinks it's horrible because he just loves them dead.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, but he does seem so thing he does
Speaker 3: he did. I mean, he did say like, yeah, I
Speaker 3: think the death penalty would have been better and they
Speaker 3: shouldn't just get this whatever second chance kind of thing.
Speaker 3: But he also like there's something I feel like there
Speaker 3: was something that he said when we discussed it earlier,
Speaker 3: when it came up earlier that was just sort of
Speaker 3: like and it's also it's also creepy, like you know,
Speaker 3: to like, I can't.
Speaker 1: Remember exactly that. I think you're right.
Speaker 3: I think you're right, but it is but yes, it'll
Speaker 3: be Uh. It's another example of JMS doing just like
Speaker 3: these little bread crumbs, the little tiny crumbs that he's
Speaker 3: using to just drop and set the path.
Speaker 1: I try not to say.
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, he's laying the.
Speaker 2: People he's fully laying by they are, and that like
Speaker 2: this one is so subtle because if if you are
Speaker 2: just watching it the first time, you're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: he's talking about this because that's what's going to be
Speaker 2: involved in this episode. But like on a rewatcher like way,
Speaker 2: like that's huh interesting that Garibaldi, of all people is
Speaker 2: the one who's having the strong feelings about this.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So anyway, those.
Speaker 1: Are all of my notes about this episode.
Speaker 3: Yes, did you have any I didn't take any specific
Speaker 3: notes on this one because so I figured we would
Speaker 3: actually just talk about so much of it. But I
Speaker 3: just I do think and this isn't really spoilery at all,
Speaker 3: but they're just like I just think it's such a
Speaker 3: I just think it's such a lovely episode of symbolism
Speaker 3: and subtext and mirrored storylines like in mirrored mythologies, and
Speaker 3: like it's just a really for the writing side of
Speaker 3: it is just such a it's such a fun thing
Speaker 3: to see all of the like all of the parallels
Speaker 3: that he's putting down and uh yeah and then knowing
Speaker 3: where a lot of them are going. It's you know, oh,
Speaker 3: just it's pretty masterful. It's really fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and this one it feels to me like
Speaker 2: the first Bomb episode in that I don't think this
Speaker 2: is necessary for the story, and yet I love it,
Speaker 2: Like this is not this is you know, you could
Speaker 2: pull this one out and the story could still continue.
Speaker 2: This is not a huge part of the The only
Speaker 2: thing in this that's a huge part of the over
Speaker 2: Archie's leader. Yeah, yeah, but you could literally put that
Speaker 2: in the beginning, in the end of any episode exactly.
Speaker 3: It's not. Yeah, like the meat of this.
Speaker 2: Episode is not necessary, and I love the meat.
Speaker 4: Of this episode.
Speaker 3: It's so good. It's so good, And like I said,
Speaker 3: I could watch I could watch Brother Theo all day
Speaker 3: every day. I'm just enamored with him. I love him.
Speaker 3: I love to hear him talk. He's so soothing. It's
Speaker 3: such a nice piece of casting. They're like, we're going
Speaker 3: to give him a better role, and like, you gave
Speaker 3: him the role. This was the role he was supposed
Speaker 3: to And it's not that different from Drawl in the
Speaker 3: sense that Drawl was her St Lens mentor and came
Speaker 3: from that space and that like same philosophy place. But
Speaker 3: it's so it's just so lovely. I'm like, you're the
Speaker 3: kind of person who as a as a clergy leader,
Speaker 3: as the head of a as the head of a
Speaker 3: faith organization, keeps people there. Yeah, you know, it's very
Speaker 3: like no judgment and comforting and soothing and yeah, very much.
Speaker 1: So, Yeah, it's hilariously.
Speaker 2: I think drawl is a big part of the next
Speaker 2: episode and the next episode actually was supposed to be
Speaker 2: episode four, but the next episode has a lot of
Speaker 2: special effects.
Speaker 3: So they got it.
Speaker 1: Yeah I got bumped.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, love that and
Speaker 3: that also makes sense what we'll see when we get there.
Speaker 3: We'll talk about them, okay.
Speaker 2: Yes, which is like we're running these back to back,
Speaker 2: so yeah, a couple of minutes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is one of my favorites.
Speaker 2: Like this is like there are certain episodes when I
Speaker 2: think about Babylon five that come to mind, and this
Speaker 2: is one of them, which I always find weird because,
Speaker 2: like I said, it doesn't like, you know, there are
Speaker 2: episodes that have to do with the plot and like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, that's a plot episode, but this is one
Speaker 2: of those ones. It's just like it's just an examination
Speaker 2: to me, and like I said, it does to me
Speaker 2: very much feel like and he doesn't say this really
Speaker 2: in the in a bit in that passage that I read,
Speaker 2: but it feels like very much looking back on a
Speaker 2: time in his life where he had faith and belief
Speaker 2: and being like, this was a good thing about that
Speaker 2: belief that I like and miss and I'm just gonna
Speaker 2: spend some time examining.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, those are my thoughts. I love it,
Speaker 3: I love it, I love it.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I guess that's that's it for this episode.
Speaker 2: And I was gonna say that's it for today. But
Speaker 2: it's not weird good but for you it is for us,
Speaker 2: for you not it is not. But yeah, if you
Speaker 2: like this, son, you might want to check out Our Reaction,
Speaker 2: which is up on YouTube, and you can check out
Speaker 2: our Patreon for unedited versions of the Reaction early access
Speaker 2: actually versions of the audio version of this podcast. Sometimes
Speaker 2: random other ship that we do for I don't know,
Speaker 2: you get that as well. And I also get a
Speaker 2: super secret channel in my discord where super secret shit happens.
Speaker 2: It's super secret and so I'm not you're telling you
Speaker 2: about it and you can do all of that never
Speaker 2: and never, And I also like a subscribed and I
Speaker 2: still keep forgetting to ask Gus if we get any
Speaker 2: ratings or reviews because I don't know how to check that.
Speaker 3: So do that and maybe we'll hype hype it up.
Speaker 2: Yes, hip and like liking the video. If you're watching
Speaker 2: this on YouTube, I know that I know what that does.
Speaker 2: That actually helps hype. Maybe no clue, so but do
Speaker 2: all of that. That was a big long outro, So
Speaker 2: do it all.
Speaker 3: I'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: Level on