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The most shocking 25 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:22.120 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:29.480 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every 27 00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:33.200 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:37.799 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 29 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:40.680 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 30 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:52.560 Good evening. This is your host Dan Zupansky for the 31 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:55.799 program True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime 32 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:59.719 history and the authors that have written about them. Bloodstains 33 00:01:59.799 --> 00:02:02.359 is the startling tale of one man's search for the 34 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:06.400 truth after inheriting the personal diaries belonging to his great 35 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:10.599 great grandfather, who he discovers was America's first and most 36 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:15.120 notorious serial killer. Hermann Webster Mudget, better known by his 37 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:19.319 alias H. H. Olmes. Mudget, was the mass murderer who 38 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:22.680 struck terror into the nation by being the proprietor of 39 00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:25.719 the infamous Murder Castle and stalking the streets of Chicago 40 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:31.000 during the eighteen ninety three World's Fair. During his incarceration 41 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:35.319 awaiting execution well over a century ago, Holmes admitted killing 42 00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:39.960 twenty seven innocent victims, but the evidence the author locates 43 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:44.080 indicates hundreds more likely from his investigation, Jeff Mudget, the 44 00:02:44.199 --> 00:02:47.759 direct descendant of H. H. Holmes, learns that Holmes's reign 45 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.599 of terror was worldwide and not limited Chicago, as has 46 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:57.560 been so widely believed. Based upon never before revealed historical facts, 47 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:02.439 Jeff pieces together a dynamic an extraordinary puzzle, including the 48 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:06.919 strong possibility that Holmes was also Jack the Ripper. The 49 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:09.120 book that we're going to be featuring this evening is 50 00:03:09.199 --> 00:03:14.080 Bloodstains with my special guest, Jeff Mudget. Welcome to the program, 51 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:18.319 and thank you to agreeing to this interview. Jeff Mudget, Hey. 52 00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:20.960 Dan, thank you very much. It's my pleasure to be here. 53 00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:23.680 Well, thank you very much. It's going to be the 54 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:27.719 pleasure of our audience to hear this incredible story. And again, 55 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:32.360 first off, congratulations on a great book. It's a real 56 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:36.120 thrill ride of a read for those people that are 57 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:40.360 going to be fortunate enough to have read this book. Now. 58 00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:46.680 First off, normally ask why a particular author decides to 59 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:52.360 write about this book. But let's get into your relationship 60 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:58.560 to Herman Webster. Mudget. Tell us a little bit about 61 00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:04.599 your family tree, a little bit, please, sure, d he. 62 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:08.919 Was my great great grandfather. The way I explained that 63 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:12.319 more clearly is to tell everyone that he was my 64 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:19.800 grandfather's grandfather. We are the legal direct descendants. That's not 65 00:04:19.879 --> 00:04:22.040 to say the only He had many women in his life, 66 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:25.120 but were the only ones that he was the result 67 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:32.319 of a legal marriage. And he was born in New 68 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:37.399 Hampshire and Gilmington in eighteen sixty one. He was an 69 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:42.079 incredible mind and a huge intellect. Went on to University 70 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:46.199 of Michigan Medical School, got his doctorate degree practice medicine, 71 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:50.480 and then, as you've already described to the audience, built 72 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:53.800 Murder Castle in Chicago for the World's Fair. That was 73 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:54.839 his plan all along. 74 00:04:56.560 --> 00:05:00.959 Now, how did you come to You start early in 75 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:04.519 the book, and maybe you can just tell us how 76 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:11.800 your grandfather, or Bert, how he viewed even speaking about 77 00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:20.279 his grandfather A. JH. Holmes, or again Walter Herman Webster Mudget, 78 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:24.360 tell us a little bit about the subject and how 79 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:30.720 your grandfather handled the subject of Herman Webster Mudget. 80 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:34.160 You know, I'm glad you brought that up because I 81 00:05:34.279 --> 00:05:37.000 like to describe that because to me, that's the major 82 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:40.639 part of the book. Obviously, there's people that want to 83 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:43.160 read about the murders and the castle and the history, 84 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:46.040 which has been written about already. What I wanted to 85 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:49.639 do was give my readers the inside story of how 86 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:53.759 our family evolved around learning that this monster was in 87 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:59.279 our background. So when I was a small boy, even 88 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:02.480 when I when I grew older, my grandfather and I 89 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:05.040 had a very strained relationship. As a matter of fact, 90 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:11.439 we didn't talk. I hated the man And the best 91 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:14.439 way for me to describe it is he loved to fish. 92 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:18.120 He used to go fishing every weekend. When I was 93 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:20.680 a boy, there was nothing I liked doing more than 94 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:22.839 to go fishing. He never invited me to go fishing. 95 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:26.600 Imagine your grandfather never inviting you to go fishing. So 96 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:31.800 I grew up with this strain. Well, I just gave 97 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:34.560 up on the man. Well, one night, when I was 98 00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:38.079 about forty forty five years old, at a family dinner, 99 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:42.639 through some investigation that my grandmother had been doing about 100 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:45.680 our genealogy and her belief that we were related to 101 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:48.839 more famous people, it came out that we had a 102 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:52.079 criminal in our background. And at that dinner table, my 103 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:57.399 grandfather admitted that we were the descendants of the monster. HH. 104 00:06:57.439 --> 00:07:01.600 Holmes and tell us more about this conversation at the 105 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:05.839 dinner table. What your grandfather Birt had to say. 106 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:09.639 Well, he I still I can see it as clear, 107 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:13.040 clear as day. He stood up at the head of 108 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:18.480 the table once the name was mentioned, face White, slammed 109 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:20.519 his chair back so hard against the wall the picture 110 00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:23.839 came down behind him, and he talked, pointed his finger 111 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:27.560 at the whole family revolving around around the different chairs 112 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:31.839 of the table, and told everyone that that name was 113 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:35.399 never to be mentioned in this in his house ever again, 114 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:42.519 and then stopped with his finger pointing at me, stared 115 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:45.079 for three or four seconds. I can still see it now, 116 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:46.959 and then stormed out of the room. And I can 117 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:49.279 see I can see my grandmother's eyes going back and forth, 118 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:51.920 putting his eyes in my eyes like he was telling 119 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:57.120 me something different. And uh at we all we all 120 00:07:57.279 --> 00:07:59.600 followed his orders when we never brought the name up, 121 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:02.000 and within three or four years he died after that 122 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:06.000 of cancer. But that's exactly the way it happened at 123 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:06.639 the dinner table. 124 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:12.199 What did you ascertain or conclude, even though it might 125 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:13.879 not have been so easy to conclude, what did you 126 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:16.439 think of the entire thing? Why he had looked to you, 127 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:18.759 and why did you think he had such a reaction, 128 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:22.759 and as a result, no one else spoke about AJH. Holmes. 129 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:24.680 But did you do some research? 130 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:30.480 You know, the research? Yes, the research became an obsession, Dan, 131 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:34.639 and I took to learning everything I could about this 132 00:08:34.919 --> 00:08:38.639 man in our background and why, what could have caused 133 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:41.519 my grandfather to have this reaction. Well, as you can imagine, 134 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:44.519 you know the twenty or thirty books written already about Holmes, 135 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:53.279 he was the worst of the worst, and it quickly 136 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:58.559 became what well as I, as I write about in 137 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:02.840 the book, the question then came about my own self 138 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:06.879 and my own identity of this thing in my background 139 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:12.159 was responsible for why I was alive, the conscious decisions 140 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:15.200 he had made that made it possible for me to 141 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:19.200 be a human being. And to have that in your background. 142 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:21.440 And what I try to do is take my readers 143 00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:24.200 along with me and have them go on that journey 144 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:28.840 of determining what we are as human beings. Even if 145 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:32.759 you have the worst thing to have ever lived on 146 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:35.159 this earth in your background. 147 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:39.399 Now, maybe we should go into your background a little 148 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:42.120 bit too. You ended up being a lawyer, so maybe 149 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:45.240 you can tell us what type of lawyer and what 150 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:49.399 kind of person you became But despite your obvious success 151 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:54.759 having become a lawyer, tell us if there was something 152 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:58.639 that you thought to pique your interest once you realized 153 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:02.759 who your relative was, this infamous monster, and why you 154 00:10:02.919 --> 00:10:06.759 had this question that was nagging at you. Tell us 155 00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:09.480 a little bit about your your life and your background 156 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:13.440 that would lead you to have this question sort of 157 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:14.200 consume you. 158 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:20.159 Well, that's a that's a great question. The my entire life, 159 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:25.360 I had had questions about thoughts that would sometimes emerge. 160 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:30.600 I was, I was a law abiding citizen. I had 161 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:35.000 never committed a crime. I was successful lawyer, had sailed 162 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:39.399 in the navy, had a lovely wife and a daughter. 163 00:10:40.679 --> 00:10:44.759 But every once in a while, these things would come 164 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:48.679 up that I had a hard time believing were normal 165 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:53.159 things about evil, and not that I ever had the 166 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:59.200 temptation to partake in them. Before I had learned of 167 00:10:59.559 --> 00:11:05.799 this session, but I had doubts, and I had often 168 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:08.759 thought about going to therapy, had it, thought about seeing 169 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:12.679 if I could have had professional help to maybe define 170 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:15.159 what this meant and maybe tell me if it was 171 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:19.279 normal for all men to think the things that would 172 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:22.519 pop up once in a while. So's that's pretty much 173 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:26.000 a summary of my life before learning this was in 174 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:26.679 our background. 175 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:30.519 Now, after your grandfather Bert made this statement that you 176 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:33.600 were not to raise the name of HH Holmes again 177 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:38.960 or Herman Herman Webster Budget again in your home, you said, 178 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:43.559 this became your obsession. You researched everything you possibly could. 179 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:47.480 For those that don't aren't so familiar with this historical 180 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:53.000 infamous monster. What did you discover at that time that 181 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:56.200 you already weren't so aware of? What did you find 182 00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:59.720 about HH Holmes in terms of the crimes, the type 183 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:04.200 of signature, the kind of characteristics of the crime itself, 184 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:07.840 as they call him m O method up around day. 185 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:14.200 So tell us what exactly characterized the murderous history of J. 186 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:18.720 Holmes and why is he referred to as HH Holmes. 187 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:22.799 Well, he well, he had about thirty Dan, he had 188 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:26.080 about thirty different aliases. He did not like the name 189 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:29.799 Herman Mudget. He used the one he liked the most 190 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:33.480 was J. Holmes, And that was because he was fascinated 191 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:39.480 with Sherlock Holmes. As I read everything in the public 192 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:45.120 domain about him, you it was obvious that there had 193 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:48.600 never been a more deliberate and cold blooded villain, maybe 194 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:51.759 in the history of the world. Now, obviously you get 195 00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:56.799 into discussions about Hitler and now and those things that 196 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:00.200 you know, where millions of people were murdered becase as 197 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:03.320 the decisions they made. But I'm I'm I'm talking about 198 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:05.840 the man that does it with his own hands, not 199 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:08.519 not orders a man in military uniform to do it. 200 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.799 So he was a prodigy of wickedness. He well at 201 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:15.360 the University of Michigan if he had one of the 202 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:18.720 highest recorded IQs ever. And when you started, when I 203 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.639 started to study the actions, the things he invented, the 204 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:27.279 drugs he created, he was an incredible mind, and it 205 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:33.080 was it was a sad thing to realize that that 206 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:36.200 mind had gone to waste in order for him to 207 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:43.720 follow the practices that you know, were just diabolical. He 208 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:47.919 knew from an early age that his natural pent was murdered. 209 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:53.440 He grew up wanting to hurt people. One of the 210 00:13:53.480 --> 00:13:56.240 discussions I have in the book is about this thing 211 00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:59.120 that where our modern medical science needs needs to put 212 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:01.679 a name on on the serial kills and called them 213 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:04.240 psychotic to say that they had a mental disorder, that 214 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:08.360 this thing is treatable. What I quickly came to know 215 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:12.759 was that this wasn't a disorder. This wasn't a mental condition. 216 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:16.039 It certainly wasn't treatable. This is what he was and 217 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:18.039 what he wanted to be just evil. 218 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:23.919 Now you talk about this early age. Now maybe we're 219 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:27.360 jumping ahead a little bit, but we will talk about 220 00:14:27.559 --> 00:14:31.200 the priest and the experience he had when he was 221 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:34.279 six years old. But that is what's something you find out, 222 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:38.960 not through the regular research obviously, so we'll we'll leave 223 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:43.039 that for now. Now tell us continue with you. You 224 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:46.320 talk about that this person was this incredible villain, and 225 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:50.519 there was no certainly was not insane by any any standard. 226 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:54.360 He was just an embodiment of evil. What are some 227 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:59.519 of the crimes that you because obviously you take to 228 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:05.360 the reader on a discovery of the dimension that the 229 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:09.759 history books are not aware of, new information and like 230 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:13.639 I say, almost a new dimension to the villain himself. 231 00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:16.919 But at that time in your research, take us back 232 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:19.519 to what you did find. What was the body count, 233 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:22.159 what was his mo who did he target? What kind 234 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:26.279 of victims? What was his ruse that he used? Why 235 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:29.200 was he a killer in terms of according to the 236 00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:31.440 history books, Well. 237 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:37.120 He was an incredibly charming man who who had well 238 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.720 maybe hundreds of women who fell in love with him 239 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:45.480 over his lifetime. He could hypnotize, he could put on 240 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:51.000 this doctor, this friend, this neighbor that's always there to assist, 241 00:15:51.360 --> 00:16:00.679 and people flocked to him and with obvious terrible results. 242 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:06.360 The thing that I came up to see it right 243 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:08.279 off the bat, before I got the material you were 244 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:12.799 talking about, was that his life, the way he made 245 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:17.279 his living was to sell the skeletons of some of 246 00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:19.720 the people that he had murdered to the medical schools 247 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:22.960 across the country. Is were known as the most pristine 248 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:26.080 and he made quite a living doing it. He also 249 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:28.799 made a huge amount of money for the time in 250 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:32.320 life insurance three or four hundred thousand a year in 251 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:35.559 the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties, which I don't know 252 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.799 how that translates out to money now, but probably a 253 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:45.440 lot of millions he was We just found out. The thing, Dan, 254 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.919 that's amazing too, is that the information never stops coming in. 255 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:51.279 We found out about a week ago that he had 256 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:55.320 a phony patent office in Philadelphia. Imagine a man with 257 00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:59.759 a patent office who watches an innovation walk in his 258 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:03.720 front or something. Maybe the idea of a decade. 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Terms and conditions apply. See website 290 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:37.720 for details. 291 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:41.960 What man, the mind of man is capable of, and 292 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:44.519 this is certainly the one who will give us the 293 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:45.319 outer extreme. 294 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:50.319 Now, according to the history books, and this is this 295 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.160 is where that the story gets even more fantastic. But 296 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:57.880 according to the history books, he was hanged for murder. 297 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:05.079 I'm what year, eighteen ninety six, I believe, maybe ninety seven. 298 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:07.200 I don't know the exactly. I don't have my timeline 299 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:09.680 in front of me. And there's so many years on 300 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:12.359 in his life that you got thick. But I think 301 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:17.079 eighteen ninety six. He was arrested in eighteen ninety four, 302 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:22.680 I believe so. And as you know that we get 303 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:25.880 into that alleged hanging in the book. 304 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:31.039 Yeah, absolutely, that's It's another fantastic aspect of the book. 305 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:34.319 Now let's get to because I know the audience is 306 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:37.720 reeling a little bit. They understand it. We're dealing with 307 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:43.000 this charming super villain selling skeletons and organs, and so 308 00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:49.720 let's talk about the event where you became inextricably involved 309 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:53.799 with your great great grandfather Forever. Tell us what the 310 00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:57.680 circumstances were that you became even more involved than just 311 00:19:57.799 --> 00:19:59.359 researching your family tree. 312 00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:03.359 Right well, as you know, the story of Bloodstains is 313 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.920 about some material my grandfather left me after he died. 314 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.200 He was a He was a wealthy man when he died, 315 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:16.519 As all families do they they squabbled over his proceeds. 316 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:22.400 I wasn't involved. I remember about three or four years 317 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:26.839 after his death, my father drove up to my house 318 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:29.680 one day and said that he had something from Grandpa 319 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:34.440 for me, and I didn't excite me much to the truth, 320 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:37.319 I hadn't expected anything and didn't really want anything. And 321 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:39.799 he handed me a couple of old World War two 322 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:44.319 ammal cases that I had been turned into fishing tackle boxes, 323 00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:50.559 and both my father and I thought it was his 324 00:20:50.599 --> 00:20:54.400 way of asking me to go fishing finally, and so 325 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:56.200 he gave me these these and they were full of 326 00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:59.839 fishing lures and reels and wrenches, and they sat in 327 00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:03.759 my garage for a couple three years. Well, one day 328 00:21:04.519 --> 00:21:07.039 I went out, and I don't know why it happened 329 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:11.119 this one day, but curious, maybe a longing to have 330 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:13.559 a little affection for my grandfather. Finally I turned them 331 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:18.160 over and went through all this stuff. Nothing really interested 332 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:21.799 me much. When I tried to stack it all together 333 00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:23.960 to close the lids and put them away forever, I 334 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:26.519 couldn't get them closed, and one of the boxes actually 335 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:30.240 got kicked over and the bottom opened up, and in 336 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:34.359 the bottom was a diary. And that's what such things, 337 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:37.200 the story of led things is all about, about the 338 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:42.119 killers' diaries that my grandfather had and had kept secret 339 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:46.160 from the world his entire life, and had decided I 340 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:48.519 was the one that would have them. And that was 341 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:50.799 what the stare at the dinner table that night was 342 00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:57.680 all about. And my life became learning what they meant. 343 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:07.160 Now you say diaries, there was two diaries, and I'm correct, 344 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:08.279 there's two diaries. 345 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:11.759 Right now, let me explain this, and this is how 346 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:14.640 I do this because I get asked this every time. 347 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:20.920 The story is about my great great grandfather's diaries. The 348 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:24.599 question about whether these diaries will ever be revealed or 349 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:28.119 whether they were actually in existence, will be up to 350 00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:31.359 my daughter to tell, because I want to respect her 351 00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:33.880 life and I'm not going to do it. So what 352 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:37.279 I do is I tell people that the book is 353 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:39.680 about the story of these two diaries, and they are 354 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:41.400 the diaries of the killer. 355 00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:47.720 I'm not sure I understood that, but we'll plow us. 356 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:51.079 The book is called fiction based on a true story, 357 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.160 and it was done for legal reasons. As you know, 358 00:22:55.319 --> 00:23:01.960 there are there's no statute limitations on murder. The authorities, 359 00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:05.319 if they decided these books actually existed, to take them 360 00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:08.559 from me within about two or three days, I see. 361 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:14.200 So that's after many consultations I decided that it was 362 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:16.359 to be called fiction based on a true story. 363 00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:20.240 Ah. Incredible, Well, thank you for answering that. That's even 364 00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:24.279 more intriguing and should be more intriguing to the audience. Incredible, 365 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:32.759 Now are they fairly these diaries? Are? How many pages 366 00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:35.039 are we dealing with or how long would it take 367 00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:38.799 you to read these? And when did you fully read 368 00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.319 these I know I've read the books, so of course 369 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:45.079 I'm asking a question, when did you How did you 370 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:47.720 proceed with these diaries? Did you read them all in 371 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:50.559 one night? How did you proceed with the reading of 372 00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:51.359 these diaries? 373 00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:55.440 Now that would have been impossible. You're talking about a 374 00:23:55.480 --> 00:24:00.000 man with a mind that to comprehend you need to 375 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:04.039 put some work into this was well, imagine reading the 376 00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:09.240 diaries of a Freud or Machiavellio. It's it's a lot 377 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:12.559 of work. Plus we're dealing with the events which are 378 00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:18.119 so horrifying you could go sick as you read them, 379 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:21.680 maybe like nothing that's ever been written before. So it 380 00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:24.519 took me. It took me two or three years to 381 00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:28.319 get through them. And because so much I had written 382 00:24:28.599 --> 00:24:32.319 been written about homes that were directly opposed to what 383 00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:35.720 these books were saying, I had doubts about whether they 384 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:38.480 were real at all or just hate. So, you know, 385 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:40.799 as as explained in the book, the first thing we 386 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:43.279 did was go check the handwriting on both books to 387 00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:46.920 make sure they were the same hand because we're talking 388 00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:50.960 about a book being written after he was hung. Well, 389 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:55.359 that doesn't make much sense without without having researched the 390 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:59.240 facts which actually occurred. So you know we put I 391 00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:02.559 put a lot time and traveling back and forth across 392 00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:05.480 the country trying to find out if these things were true. 393 00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:12.200 Now, how how how intrigued were you or how motivated 394 00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:16.079 were you after you got that initial confirmation that yes, 395 00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:22.039 this person was certain that this was the hand of A. J. Holmes. 396 00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:25.119 Yeah, we had one of the one of the most 397 00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:31.359 highly thought of experts on forensic handwriting basically you know, 398 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:33.359 told me in a private media that they were the same, 399 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:37.079 which meant that he had not been on Well every 400 00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:41.640 book that's been written about Holmes, and the newspaper reports 401 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.559