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Terms of g 23 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:00.759 It's eighty plus. 24 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:11.359 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 25 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:14.480 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:21.840 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 27 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:25.560 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:29.840 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your 29 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:33.719 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 30 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:45.959 Good Evening the incredible story of a nineteen fifty eight 31 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:48.640 murder that ended with the last woman to ever be 32 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:52.719 executed in California, a murder so twisted it seems ripped 33 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:56.400 from a Greek tragedy. Deborah Larkin was only ten years 34 00:01:56.400 --> 00:01:59.599 old when the quiet calm of her California suburb was shattered. 35 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:03.200 Thirty miles north. On a quiet November night in Santa Barbara, 36 00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:07.280 a pregnant nurse named Oga Duncan disappeared from her apartment. 37 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:10.800 The mystery deepens when it is discovered that Oga's mother 38 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:14.360 in law, a deeply manipulative and deceptive woman, had been 39 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:16.919 doing everything in her power to separate Olga and her 40 00:02:16.919 --> 00:02:20.759 son Frank, prior to Oga's disappearance, from a forged a 41 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:23.680 noment to multiple attempts to hire people to get rid 42 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:28.759 of Oga, to a faked extortion case. Elizabeth seemed psychopathically 43 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:31.919 attached to her son, yet she denied having anything to 44 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:35.120 do with Oga's disappearance with a smile. But when Ogo's 45 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:38.800 brutally beaten body is found in a shallow grave, apparently 46 00:02:38.919 --> 00:02:41.800 buried alive, a young da makes it his mission to 47 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:44.800 see that Elizabeth Duncan is brought to justice. Adding a 48 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:47.800 wrinkle to his efforts is the fact that Frank, himself 49 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:51.439 a defense attorney, maintained his mother's innocence to the end. 50 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:54.599 How does a young girl process such a crime along 51 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:57.800 with the fear and disbelief that rocked an entire community. 52 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:01.360 Decades later, Larkin is determined to revisit the case and 53 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:05.120 bring the story of Oga herself to light. Long overshadowed 54 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:08.599 by the sensationalism and scandal of Elizabeth and Frank, A 55 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:12.159 Lovely Girl seems to reveal Oga as a woman in full, 56 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:15.319 someone who was more than the twisted family that would 57 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:18.919 ultimately ensnare her. As we follow the heart pounding drama 58 00:03:18.919 --> 00:03:21.560 of the case through Larkin's young eyes, her father was 59 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:25.439 the court reporter. A Lovely Girl is page turning yet poignant, 60 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:29.000 and makes the reader re examine how we handle fear, 61 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:32.800 how we regard mental illness, and how we understand family. 62 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:35.599 As we carve our own path in a dangerous world. 63 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:39.000 The book that we're featuring this evening is A Lovely Girl, 64 00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:41.800 The tragedy of Olga Duncan and the trial of one 65 00:03:41.800 --> 00:03:46.120 of California's most notorious killers, with my special guest author 66 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:48.800 Deborah Larkin. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 67 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:52.199 much for this interview. Deborah Larkin, thanks for having me. 68 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:56.280 Thank you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary book. 69 00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:56.680 Thank you. 70 00:03:56.960 --> 00:04:01.319 Let's start off right away with venture at California in 71 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:05.280 nineteen fifty eight, and tell us about your family. I 72 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:07.520 said in the introduction that you were ten years old 73 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:09.919 at that time in nineteen fifty eight. Tell us about 74 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:13.360 your family and how you came to be the author 75 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:14.080 of this book. 76 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:19.240 My family lived in a small subdivision was built in 77 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:23.240 a walnut orchard. My father was a newspaper reporter and 78 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:26.759 very much a character and well known in the community. 79 00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:31.240 My mother was a psychiatric social worker at Cameria State Hospital, 80 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:34.680 which was a California State mental hospital. And I, at 81 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:37.720 ten years old, was in some ways precocious. I read 82 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:40.560 everything in the newspaper, and most of all, I was 83 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:44.040 a big warrior. And so when Olga's bought. When Olga 84 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:48.439 disappeared and then her body was discovered, I became obsessed 85 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:53.040 with this crime and wondering how this could possibly happen. 86 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:55.399 That was sort of my worst nightmare, for someone to 87 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:58.680 disappear into the middle of the night and then the 88 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:01.600 body found in a shallow grave near my home. 89 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:05.040 Tell us about your dad's career and the relationship you 90 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:07.720 for especially over this case. 91 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:12.279 Well, I always was a daddy's girl. I was interested 92 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:16.120 in everything he did, and he was, like I said, 93 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:19.279 he was a newspaper reporter for the local paper, and 94 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:22.720 he was assigned to cover this tragedy from the time 95 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:26.319 Oga disappeared, through the investigation, through the trial of her killers, 96 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:29.879 and so I felt that I could get inside information 97 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:32.560 for him and from him. And so besides reading all 98 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:35.319 of his columns, I asked a lot of questions. And 99 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:38.439 also I would describe my father as having no filter, 100 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:42.199 so nothing was really out of bounds for him as 101 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:45.199 far as discussions at home, and he used to talk 102 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:49.319 about Olga Duncan's disappearance and all the things that happened afterwards, 103 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:50.600 right around the dinner table. 104 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:55.160 Let's get to November seventeenth, nineteen fifty eight. In Santa Barbara. 105 00:05:55.959 --> 00:05:59.680 Olga Duncan is pregnant and she has a party with 106 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:02.759 two of her work friends from the hospital. Tell us 107 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:05.959 who Olga Duncan is, where she works and about this 108 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:09.160 night in particular November seventeenth, nineteen fifty eight. 109 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:12.519 Olga at that time was a surgical nurse at Cottage 110 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:16.199 Hospital in Santa Barbara. I got the title of the 111 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:19.519 book a lovely Girl because that's how she was described, 112 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:22.920 especially her her Landlady first brought it up. But everybody 113 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:25.920 had nothing but wonderful things to say about Olga, that 114 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:29.079 she was just a lovely girl. And at the time 115 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:33.399 she disappeared, she was separated from her husband, Frank Duncan, 116 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:37.279 who was a criminal defense attorney in Santa Barbara. Frank 117 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:40.800 had moved home to live with his mother because his 118 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:45.600 mother was really just obsessed with her son. She was 119 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:49.279 also insisted that she could never live alone, and she 120 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:54.079 just harassed Frank until he finally left his wife and 121 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:56.639 moved home to live with her. And that was only 122 00:06:56.879 --> 00:06:59.879 like a few weeks after the wedding. He didn't live 123 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:02.480 a full time with Olga for any time at all. 124 00:07:02.759 --> 00:07:06.240 And he also, I think he said that he thought 125 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:08.360 that if he could wait till the baby was born, 126 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:11.759 that maybe everything would be fine, that his mother would 127 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:14.959 be reconciled with the situation. But at the time she 128 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.360 harassed Olga. She said terrible things to people about Olga. 129 00:07:19.480 --> 00:07:21.920 She tried to get the stores in Santa Barbara to 130 00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:25.439 cut off any credit for Olga. She was just She 131 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:28.800 showed up at the apartment where Olga lived and got 132 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:32.160 the landlady to let her in, to go inside the apartment, 133 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:34.600 and she tried to tell the landlady that they weren't 134 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:38.040 really married, that Olga was a terrible person and had 135 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:41.439 abandoned children in Canada. And that's another thing. Olga had 136 00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:44.439 moved to Santa Barbara from Canada the year before because 137 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:47.680 there was a nurse shortage in California and she thought 138 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:50.480 that that would be someplace that she would enjoy living, 139 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:52.959 and so she got the job in Santa Barbara. 140 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:56.680 Now what happens with the That evening she was talking 141 00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:59.639 to her friends and you talked about these apartments. There 142 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:03.040 was a Missus Barnett that was the landlady, and she 143 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:06.319 had experienced those things with Olga's mother in law. But 144 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:10.000 that night she met with some friends and then they left. 145 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:13.720 The landlady thought that something else had happened a little 146 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:15.639 bit later in the evening, tell us about what the 147 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:18.319 landlady heard a little bit after those friends had left. 148 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:22.199 Well, she heard footsteps on the stairs, but she thought 149 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:24.959 that it was Frank leaving. She wasn't at that time, 150 00:08:25.079 --> 00:08:28.079 really didn't really realize that Frank had pretty much moved 151 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:31.079 out of there, because he did come sometimes to visit Olga. 152 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:33.960 So when she heard the footsteps on the stairs, she 153 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:37.039 just thought it was Frank going out for cigarettes, she said, 154 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.000 And she actually mentioned this to another tenant. She also 155 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:44.320 said that she thought maybe it was another tenant, a couple, 156 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:46.960 a young couple that sometimes went to the movies. She 157 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:49.519 thought it might have been them also, But once she 158 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:52.120 talked to the tenant, they hadn't gone out at all, 159 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:55.039 and so that concerned her. 160 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:58.320 These nurses that worked with her were concerned. And so 161 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:00.960 then there was a missing person's rea. And then you 162 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:05.600 introduce a couple characters, Detective Jim Hanson and somebody that's 163 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:09.679 even more important character in this story, Detective Charlie Thompson. 164 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:14.279 What happens? What did they hear immediately about particulars of 165 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:17.399 this case and they speak to Frank Duncan. 166 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:20.960 Yes, they the first day they were still thinking, well, 167 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:23.960 maybe she just took off. Frank said that she might 168 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:26.480 have done this to get back at him for not 169 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:30.720 living at the house. But they also heard from the 170 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:34.840 landlady that day that the missus Duncan, the mother Elizabeth Duncan, 171 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:38.720 was harassing Olga and hated her daughter in law and 172 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:42.600 had threatened that she would kill her daughter in law. 173 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:47.159 So Frank when they interviewed him, Frank was actually there 174 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:49.919 when Olga was reported missing. She was over at the 175 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:53.080 apartment and talked to the detectives and told them that 176 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:56.480 he thought she just you know, disappeared on her own 177 00:09:56.519 --> 00:10:00.679 and that she'd be back. But he also said his 178 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:04.600 mother never did say any of these things, So Frank 179 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:09.559 was very much trying to downplay everything when Olga disappeared. 180 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:12.759 He didn't feel that it was that anything had happened 181 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:15.519 to her and denied that his mother had made threats. 182 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:18.759 They found the police found that her purse was still 183 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:22.080 in the apartment. What else led them to believe that 184 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:23.879 maybe she hadn't run off. 185 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:27.200 Well, the apartment was left, the lights were on, the 186 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:30.320 dishes from the refreshment that she'd served to her two 187 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:33.039 nurs friends that night were still just sitting there on 188 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:37.200 the counter. And also the bed was turned down, but 189 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:40.559 it had not been slept in, so that made them 190 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:44.159 think that possibly she had left in the middle of 191 00:10:44.200 --> 00:10:48.679 the night. She had two cases of luggage that Frank 192 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:52.200 insisted were gone, but that was sort of contradictory to 193 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:54.480 the purse still being there. And that was one of 194 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:57.120 the things that Detective Hanson thought right from the beginning, 195 00:10:57.480 --> 00:10:59.799 was that he doesn't know any women that would go 196 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:03.000 off and leave their purse behind, so that made him wonder. 197 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:07.159 And then when they started interviewing Olga's friends, the nurses 198 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:12.399 at the hospital and called her family in Canada, they 199 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:15.639 learned that Olga had been fearful of her mother in 200 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:19.679 law and that missus Elizabeth Duncan had been harassing her, 201 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:23.039 wanting her to leave her her son alone. 202 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:26.279 And meanwhile, as you say, Frank seems to have denied 203 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:29.240 anything like that, that his mother would be capable of 204 00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:31.240 anything like that, and that's what they have to deal 205 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:35.399 with moving forward. Meanwhile, you write that November twenty first, 206 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:40.960 in Santa Barbara, California, Gus Baldonado and his buddy Lewis 207 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:45.799 Moya is with Esperanza Esquibel, owner of the Tropical Cafe 208 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:49.879 in bar what's happening that day and what are they discussing? 209 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:54.279 Well, in that chapter they are meeting up. They say 210 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:59.480 they drive Missus Escoval to a drive in restaurant in 211 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:02.799 Santa Barbara and she is there to collect money. We 212 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:08.120 discover now during that scene we don't know exactly what 213 00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:11.440 she's collecting the money for, but she meets with Missus 214 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:13.879 Duncan at the restaurant and Missus Duncan tries to give 215 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:17.919 her a two hundred dollars check, which Missus Askerbaal says no. No. 216 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:22.240 Lewis Moya, she's there representing them, says no, checks has 217 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:25.919 got to be cash. So that leads to sort of 218 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:30.120 a wanderer down State Street in Santa Barbara. First meeting 219 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:34.360 with Lewis Moya and Gus Baldonado at the Woolworths and 220 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.879 she tries to get them to take the check, and 221 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:42.399 finally Louis Moya does agree. He's not happy about it, 222 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:44.399 but he wants to go on a vacation. His parole 223 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:47.200 officers told him he can leave town, so she goes 224 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:50.639 over and cashes the check at a bank, and then 225 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:53.600 that was Lewis's idea. And then they meet again at 226 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:56.600 another store in Santa Barbara, and that's where she turns 227 00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:59.120 over part of the money. But Missus Tuckan did not 228 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:01.679 want to give the whole two hundred dollars, so she 229 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:05.279 keeps fifty for herself and gives the rest to Lewis. 230 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:09.080 But there is a much bigger financial deal that is 231 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:12.360 supposed to culminate the next week. You tell us about 232 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:13.639 what she tells them. 233 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:17.120 Right, Lewis says, they apparently have asked for a lot 234 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:20.559 more money than two hundred dollars, And Missus Duncan says 235 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:23.320 that she is going she calls it Frisco in the 236 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:27.480 next week and selling some of her stock certificates. And 237 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:31.159 these men are not well, not very sophisticated about those 238 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:33.159 kinds of things, so she just kind of says what 239 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:35.519 she wants about how she will be getting that money. 240 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:38.720 And because she is going to give them the full 241 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:42.399 six thousand dollars, she says, they have agreed that they 242 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:43.879 will take this partial payment. 243 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:48.480 Now, meanwhile, you have Detective Hanson is interviewing Frank Duncan 244 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:53.120 and I think he understood that Frank's mother was supposed 245 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:56.200 to accompany Frank to this police station interview, and so 246 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:59.159 he asked, Frank, where is your mother? Tell us about 247 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:00.960 this in the between them. 248 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:05.080 Well, the reason why Frank is going to bring his 249 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:08.159 mother to the police station is because when Missus Duncan 250 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:11.120 got home that day after you know, giving money to 251 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:14.120 Lewis and Gus, he wants to know where that check 252 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:15.960 is because it was supposed to go to pay for 253 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:19.200 a typewriter that he had bought, and she can't come 254 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:22.799 up with a receipt or the check or anything. So 255 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:27.240 she decides to say She tells him that she has 256 00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:31.679 been blackmailed and that she had to give the two 257 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:34.840 hundred dollars to these two men that work at the 258 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:41.919 Esperanza Escovaal's cafe because Frank had actually represented mister Escovall 259 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:45.240 in a criminal case and Missus Eskovall was not satisfied 260 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:47.320 with the outcome. Her husband had to go to jail. 261 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:50.600 And so that's what Missus Duncan tells her son, that 262 00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:54.799 she's being blackmailed by these people because mister Escovall went 263 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.799 to jail. So that's when Frank then says, well, he 264 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:00.919 first he wants to go over to the Tropical Cafe 265 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:03.600 and take care of this himself. He thinks it's ridiculous 266 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:06.360 and he's furious, and she begs him not to that 267 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:08.639 they'll kill him, that they threaten to kill the both 268 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:10.799 of them if they don't get money back, and so 269 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:13.559 Frank insists that they go to the police department and 270 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:16.679 he takes his mother there. But at first, when Frank 271 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:19.639 goes in to sit down with Detective Hanson, his mother 272 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:21.960 isn't with him. She's sitting in the car because she 273 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.039 doesn't want to go in. She doesn't like police, and 274 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:27.279 she doesn't want to go into the police station with 275 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:29.679 her son. She wants him to just tell them about it. 276 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:32.120 Well, that won't work with police, so they have her 277 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:36.240 come in. They suggest that if she has seen these 278 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:38.960 people that have threatened her, well, then she will be 279 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:42.960 able to identify them. What about that idea that she 280 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:45.320 will be able to identify them and a line up 281 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:48.039 and to look at some photos. Is she warmed to 282 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:48.799 that idea at all? 283 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:52.279 No, No, She claims that she was so afraid when 284 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:54.799 she was approached. She just happened to be walking by 285 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:57.120 the cafe. And they grabbed her and pulled her in 286 00:15:57.159 --> 00:16:00.399 that she was so afraid that she really can't remember 287 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:03.879 what they looked like, and she's insisting that she wouldn't 288 00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:05.039 be able to identify them. 289 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:09.200 They suggest that they will put a listening device on 290 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.799 her phone, so she again is kind of hesitant to 291 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:18.080 to help out police. But Frank is seriously considering putting 292 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:20.480 the tap on the phone. He's in agreement, isn't he correct? 293 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:24.039 Yes, he really prods his mother that we have to 294 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:26.960 do this. We're not going to pay blackmailers, and so yes, 295 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.639 he tells the police that they will have it on 296 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:30.320 their phone. 297 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:35.960 So what happens as moving forward with this investigation, Well. 298 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:39.360 Missus Duncan doesn't seem to be able to record it. 299 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.679 She claims that the listening device won't work, but that 300 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:47.039 the callers did call in Augustine Moya called another time 301 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:49.679 and she did pay them a little bit more money. 302 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:53.360 But Frank is very very annoyed with his mother because 303 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:56.320 it's a very simple procedure to do, but she claims 304 00:16:57.000 --> 00:16:57.840 it just won't work. 305 00:16:58.039 --> 00:17:01.600 So what about this lineup and about her reluctance to 306 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:05.799 think that she can confidently identify these people? Well, what's 307 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:06.680 Frank's reaction. 308 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:10.599 Well, Frank, they're in that room looking through the other 309 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:13.599 side of the two way mirror to see the people 310 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:16.799 in the lineup, and she claims at first know that 311 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:20.680 she doesn't see anybody, she doesn't recognize anybody, and Frank 312 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:23.240 just gets in her face and said, come on, mother, oh, 313 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:28.880 because she has already she eventually did pick mug shot out. 314 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:31.359 Frank kept prodding her and prodding her. She picked a 315 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:34.039 mug shot out. They brought the guy in, and when 316 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:35.960 she sees in the lineup, she says, no, no, his 317 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:38.960 hair's not right. That's not the guy. And Frank is 318 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:41.559 really angry and gets in his mother's face and says, 319 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:43.920 you know you recognize him, mother, You see him. He 320 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.880 was one in the mugshot. And at that point the 321 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:51.319 detective kind of intervenes and says, no, please, mister Duncan, 322 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:53.039 You've got to leave her alone. She needs to make 323 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:57.599 this investigation or this identification. But she's still him and haunted, 324 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:00.400 and Frank goes at him again, and this time the 325 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:04.319 detective disc is quiet because he is thinking that this 326 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:08.519 extortion case is not going to go anywhere, and by 327 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:12.200 that time they've already started to suspect that it is 328 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:15.799 somehow linked to Olga's disappearance. So he decides to just 329 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:18.880 let Frank, you know, say whatever he wants to his mother, 330 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:22.440 and so after that she's sticking with it. She doesn't 331 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:26.440 recognize anybody, and so when they leave that room and 332 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:28.119 they go to a different part of the police station, 333 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:31.640 Frank suggests that they should bring the number I forget 334 00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:33.559 it was number four, whoever it was that he thinks 335 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:36.680 it is in the room for Missus Duncan to meet 336 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:38.680 to see if she can identify him. And the two 337 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:41.960 detectives talk and this is highly irregular, but they think, well, 338 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:44.039 we'll just take it and see where it goes. They've 339 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:47.039 sort of given up on the extortion case. And so 340 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:51.519 they bring Lewis Moya in and he tries to shake 341 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:54.799 hands with both of them, and Frank won't shake his hand, 342 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:58.839 and again she says, no, no, this is not the guy. 343 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:02.640 And when they take Lewis Moya away, she Frank just 344 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:05.920 goes ballistic and he's saying, you know, that's the man 345 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:09.000 that you saw in those mugshots, and this point she 346 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:13.119 finally says, well, he just looks like such an innocent 347 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:17.440 little lamb, I just don't like Prison's a terrible thing, 348 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:20.039 and I wouldn't want anybody to have to be there. 349 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:25.240 And so at that point, Frank says, I'm leaving tonight, mother, 350 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:27.519 I'm going to I'm going to go and live. I'm 351 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:30.799 leaving you if in the apartment, if you can't identify 352 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:33.559 this man. And again the detectives know, well, this isn't 353 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:36.279 going to stick for the extortion case, but they just let, 354 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:39.000 you know, let it go and see what happens. And 355 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:44.400 she finally says, okay, yeah, that's the guy, but I'm 356 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:47.720 not going to testify against him. And if I do, 357 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:50.880 the other man is still at large or you know, 358 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:53.559 he's still and he will kill us and we should 359 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:55.920 be afraid that he will kill us. So then the 360 00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:58.920 textors say, okay, well, we're done investigating the extortion case. 361 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:03.279 But they're of course realize that this is possibly linked. 362 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:06.799 Those two men could possibly be linked to the disappearance, 363 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:10.240 because they have come to believe that Missus Duncan is 364 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:13.880 involved in her daughter in law's disappearance, but they have 365 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:17.559 no evidence, and so they decide to just keep moving 366 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:18.519 with it in that direction. 367 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:22.559 There was a woman, a very important character that is introduced. 368 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:26.039 You introduced. It's an older woman, she's eighty three or 369 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:29.519 eighty four years old, and her name is Emma Short, 370 00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:33.680 and she is with Betty Duncan Elizabeth Duncan, and so 371 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:36.799 the police think, well, maybe we should interview this woman. 372 00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:40.400 And of course not to raise arouse suspicion, but when 373 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:42.960 they say we'd like to speak to your friend, of 374 00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:45.759 course Missus Duncan says, you don't need to talk to her. 375 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:48.519 She doesn't know anything, you don't need to talk to her. 376 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:51.279 So they go talk to her. What does Emma Short 377 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:51.960 have to say? 378 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:55.240 Well, yes, they live in the same apartment building. Emma 379 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:59.920 lives downstairs, Missus Duncan lives in the upstairs apartment just above, 380 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.200 so she kind of keeps an eye on Emma. And 381 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:06.880 so they decide to have to both go to the 382 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:11.359 apartment building. A Detective Hanson goes upstairs to talk to 383 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:13.680 missus Duncan and try to work out things with that 384 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:16.079 listening device that she's having trouble with that's just to 385 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:20.119 keep her busy. And Detective Thompson goes to see Emma 386 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:22.799 and at first she just doesn't want to say anything. 387 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.920 She's very afraid, but she is like I would call 388 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.599 a sidekick. She goes everywhere with Missus Duncan, so she's 389 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:33.359 been a witness to all that has been going on. 390 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:39.799 And so finally Detective Thompson convinces her that she needs 391 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:42.599 to tell them what happened, and Emma says she's afraid 392 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:45.519 that Missus Duncan does things to people who cross her, 393 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:49.279 but Thompson convinces her that they will protect her, so 394 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:52.359 they leave to go to the Santa Barbara police station 395 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:55.599 to have a real interview with missus short and little 396 00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:59.359 at a time. When they're there, she tells them about 397 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:02.880 the the extortion case, that she made that up about 398 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:05.279 that because she had to tell them something about the checks. 399 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:08.319 She lets them know that there was a phony andnlment 400 00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:11.519 that Missus Duncan try impersonated her her daughter in law 401 00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:13.559