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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Stammer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week,
Speaker 6: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history, True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 7: Good evening, You're listening to the program True Murder, the
Speaker 7: most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors
Speaker 7: that have written about them, with your host Dan Zupansky,
Speaker 7: and my guest this evening is Diane Fanning. And when
Speaker 7: Diane Fanning was nine years old, a man asking directions
Speaker 7: stopped and grabbed her by the arm, trying to drag
Speaker 7: her into his car. An oncoming vehicle honked her horn
Speaker 7: and there would be abductor. Let go of Diane and
Speaker 7: fled the scene. She had, however, memorized the car's license
Speaker 7: plate number, and when police caught up with a man,
Speaker 7: he was also arrested for the murder of an eight
Speaker 7: year old girl killed just a month before. The dramatic
Speaker 7: event sparked a lifelong interest in the psychology of the
Speaker 7: criminal mind and led directly to her career as a
Speaker 7: celebrated true crime author. Published in two thousand, she has
Speaker 7: written three books of fiction and has ten true crime
Speaker 7: books published by Saint Martin's Press. I want to welcome
Speaker 7: to the program, Diane Fanning. Thank you very much for
Speaker 7: agreeing to this interview. Diane.
Speaker 2: Good evening, Dan, it's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much. Just going to introduce your book
Speaker 7: Baby Be Mind, just with a brief synopsis. Then I'll
Speaker 7: start asking you some questions to explain to our audience
Speaker 7: this incredible story. Thirty six year old Lisa Montgomery was
Speaker 7: a mother of four but still wanted to have more children.
Speaker 7: She claimed, the last time pregnant, she miscarried, and now
Speaker 7: she was pregnant again and desperate to have another child.
Speaker 7: On December sixteenth, two thousand and four, in Skidmore, Missouri,
Speaker 7: Montgomery strangled eight month pregnant Bobby Jill Stinnette and cut
Speaker 7: from the womb her baby. Lisa Montgomery fled to Melbourne, Kansas,
Speaker 7: and managed to pass off the abducted newborn their own
Speaker 7: to her uninsuspecting husband and family members. Thanks to Amber
Speaker 7: alert and a forensic examination of computer correspondence, the baby
Speaker 7: was found safe and sound, and Montgomery was arrested at trial.
Speaker 7: Was she suffering from mental illness or simply a cold
Speaker 7: blood of Killer. Welcome to the program, Diane. Let me
Speaker 7: ask for this very first question. You have written about
Speaker 7: other cases. I had mentioned that you have ten books
Speaker 7: under your belt. What specifically made you decide to write
Speaker 7: about this particular case.
Speaker 2: Well, Dan, sometimes your interested the case is fostered by
Speaker 2: some little serendipitous coincidents. And I was initially drawn because
Speaker 2: December sixteenth, the day that Bobby Jo Stinnett was murdered,
Speaker 2: was also the day that I lost my grandmother. I
Speaker 2: had been many years before, but it was an anniversary
Speaker 2: and I was thinking about her that day, and so
Speaker 2: I was riveted with this thought of another discipline that day.
Speaker 2: And then when I started listening to the first breaking
Speaker 2: news about this story and heard it was a seesarian abduction,
Speaker 2: I'd never heard of a crime like that before. I
Speaker 2: never knew what it even happened, So that is what
Speaker 2: got my interest. And of course, then when I went
Speaker 2: to research the crime, I found out that although it
Speaker 2: is a rare crime, there have been enough of them
Speaker 2: that the SBI had done a full study on that
Speaker 2: particular type of crime.
Speaker 3: In that criminal Now.
Speaker 7: Where were you living at that particular time.
Speaker 3: I was living here in Texas.
Speaker 7: In Texas, Okay. And how far from Skidmore, Missouri is
Speaker 7: is that in terms of miles for audience?
Speaker 2: I have no idea, but it was too dark far
Speaker 2: for me to drive a Kansas city and drove north
Speaker 2: from there.
Speaker 7: Okay. Now, in terms of the coverage of the story itself,
Speaker 7: how far was it reaching in terms of you were
Speaker 7: in Texas? Was it a big story in Texas? How
Speaker 7: far reaching was the story itself?
Speaker 2: Yes, I think it was a bit everywhere because it
Speaker 2: made CNN News and of course it was on Nancy
Speaker 2: Grace and it was pretty much all the national media
Speaker 2: covered it because it was a spectacular crime with a
Speaker 2: particularly happy ending. I mean, Bobby Joe was dead, but
Speaker 2: the baby survived. In many of these cases the baby
Speaker 2: died as well. In this case was a little different
Speaker 2: and the things worked right to recover the baby very
Speaker 2: very quickly.
Speaker 7: Okay, Well, you're getting a little bit ahead for our
Speaker 7: audience that is not familiar with the story. So let's
Speaker 7: go back a little bit and outline for our audience
Speaker 7: the killer herself, Lisa Montgomery, what kind of persons in
Speaker 7: terms of once she was an adult, what is some
Speaker 7: of what was she like as a person? And what
Speaker 7: was some of her background.
Speaker 2: Well, she came from a family and I think this
Speaker 2: is important where she had a seal series of stepfathers
Speaker 2: and her mother had five children, and every time just
Speaker 2: about she had a child, it seemed to be to
Speaker 2: get married or to keep a marriage from breaking up.
Speaker 2: Her mother never did anything like Lisa did, but she
Speaker 2: taught her that pregnancy and partnership were two things that winter.
Speaker 3: Legs, and if you could get pregnant, you could get
Speaker 3: a man or keep a man.
Speaker 2: And so unfortunately along the way, one of those men
Speaker 2: that her mother had married was actually assaulted Lisa when
Speaker 2: she was a young teenager, and I think that scarred
Speaker 2: her a lot, and was combined with the dysfunctional family
Speaker 2: she was raised in, it made someone who wasn't exactly
Speaker 2: emotionally stable. But I think there was a deeper sigh
Speaker 2: to her character. I think she was very much the narcissist,
Speaker 2: perhaps a malignant narcissist. Everything had to be the way
Speaker 2: Lee so wanted it to be, and.
Speaker 3: That's what led her down this road.
Speaker 2: And she had she was married, had children of her
Speaker 2: husband left her, he claimed to be pregnant, he married
Speaker 2: her again. The pregnancy sort of disappeared. She claimed to
Speaker 2: be pregnant again, but both of these pregnancies happened outside
Speaker 2: after she's gotten a tube ligation, So I don't know
Speaker 2: how anybody could have thought she was pregnant there. But
Speaker 2: her first husband kind of got tired of all the
Speaker 2: game playing and finally the marriage ended for good. And
Speaker 2: that's when she met her second husband, and she went
Speaker 2: through a couple of sony pregnancies with him before they
Speaker 2: were married. He married her thinking she was pregnant, but
Speaker 2: then she claimed having miscarriage. Another time she claimed to
Speaker 2: be pregnant with twins, and then finally when it was
Speaker 2: obvious that he just have had it with her, that
Speaker 2: was when she realized that this pregnancy had to be
Speaker 2: real and she targeted the woman she was going to
Speaker 2: take the baby from.
Speaker 7: Now, how many you talk about this is an incredible feature,
Speaker 7: a psychological feature. Whether this woman is obsessed with holding
Speaker 7: on to holding onto relationships that are going sour by
Speaker 7: being constantly being pregnant or expecting a child or and
Speaker 7: so this is the feature of her adult life. But
Speaker 7: how many children does Lisa Montgomery have herself? What kind
Speaker 7: of mother is she? And basically what kind of mother
Speaker 7: is she and how many children does she have before
Speaker 7: this event happened.
Speaker 2: He has five children, just like her mother, and she
Speaker 2: seemed to be a very sporadic mother. Sometimes she seemed
Speaker 2: to do the right thing, but other times she would
Speaker 2: just lay on the sofa and read, and if the
Speaker 2: kids wanted something to eat, she throw something together, set
Speaker 2: a pot on the floor, and they would eat on
Speaker 2: the floor. She went from acting like a mother to
Speaker 2: acting very disinterested and very bothered by her children. There
Speaker 2: is a difference between a newborn and a tiny baby
Speaker 2: that they look at you for everything and they don't
Speaker 2: really question you.
Speaker 3: When children get older.
Speaker 2: They're not giving as much of the positive feedback that
Speaker 2: narcissist needs.
Speaker 3: And so.
Speaker 2: She did get a lot from that, and she got
Speaker 2: really more from infants than she got from anyone adult
Speaker 2: or any of her own children.
Speaker 7: No, you talk about narcissism, but was there any diagnosed
Speaker 7: psychological labels attached to her behavior? Was she seen by
Speaker 7: psychologists or psychiatrist or is this sort of a diagnosis
Speaker 7: after the fact. Was her mental illness prominent enough for
Speaker 7: anybody in her family or ex husband or anyone to
Speaker 7: officially have had her see someone is there any record
Speaker 7: of her, Not.
Speaker 3: Until she's arrested. Okay, we'll see. Well, go ahead.
Speaker 2: If you look at narcissism as being on the same
Speaker 2: spectrum is psychopathy and see progressive degrees, there's different levels
Speaker 2: of narcissism, and and Lisa checks in, I believe at
Speaker 2: the level of malignant narcissism, where you are willing to
Speaker 2: do anything and disregard anyone else's rights or anyone else's
Speaker 2: life to get what you feel you need.
Speaker 7: Okay, Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I want
Speaker 7: to have a good understanding of what narcissism means in
Speaker 7: this context. And when you're talking about a psychopath for
Speaker 7: those that still don't know what that is, it's just
Speaker 7: complete devoid of conscience. People are able to do things
Speaker 7: that normal people would not be able to do.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 7: I wanted to ask you as well as that when
Speaker 7: you mentioned in the end when she did have her
Speaker 7: husband and she did steal the child, this had to
Speaker 7: be first done with her pretending to be pregnant and
Speaker 7: convincing people that she was pregnant. Now, how did she
Speaker 7: fool people like her husband and family members and girlfriends
Speaker 7: that she actually was pregnant. You talked about the tubal ligation. Well,
Speaker 7: how did this particular husband not know? Can you explain
Speaker 7: how on earth anyone could have been fooled by her?
Speaker 7: Or to what extent did she did she fool these people?
Speaker 7: And about how did she go about it?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, when I first started looking into this case,
Speaker 2: that was something that really confused me.
Speaker 3: I mean, particularly a husband.
Speaker 2: I how future the husband's thinking you're pregnant. Well, it's
Speaker 2: for one thing, her husband did not Kevin did not
Speaker 2: know that she'd.
Speaker 3: Had a toub a ligation. Her first husband knew, but
Speaker 3: her second husband did not.
Speaker 2: And uh so that you know, that was part of it. Now,
Speaker 2: he didn't particularly want any children because he had hers
Speaker 2: to raise. He had his own children by a previous relationship,
Speaker 2: but you know, he's a family kind of guy. He
Speaker 2: married her in the first place because he thought she
Speaker 2: was pregnant, so he he was committed for that for
Speaker 2: that part of the relationship. What happens, according to the
Speaker 2: experts I talked to at the National Center for Missing
Speaker 2: Unexploited Children, is that in most all of these relationships
Speaker 2: where the staring abduction occurs, the husband or boyfriend has
Speaker 2: lost interest sexually in his partner, and when she says
Speaker 2: I'm pregnant, he embraces that because that means he does
Speaker 2: not have to touch her again. He's got an excuse.
Speaker 2: I don't want to hurt the baby. It's not the
Speaker 2: real reason why he's not being intimate with his wife,
Speaker 2: but it is an acceptable reason. So they're doing that,
Speaker 2: and meanwhile, she's making sure that her husband never sees
Speaker 2: her completely naked. So you've got a dynamic that where
Speaker 2: people are trying. Both people are trying to keep physical
Speaker 2: space between one and another, and so realizing that she
Speaker 2: is pregnant then becomes more different.
Speaker 3: Whether or not she's pregnant, it becomes more difficult.
Speaker 2: And you complicate that with some of these women are
Speaker 2: able to swallow air in a way that makes their
Speaker 2: stomach very rigid. I don't know if you've ever touched
Speaker 2: the tummy of a woman carrying a child, but it's
Speaker 2: much It's much harder than you know, somebody's fat belly,
Speaker 2: you know. But if you swallow the air in the
Speaker 2: right way, you can make your stomach pooch out and
Speaker 2: be hard so that somebody with a minimal amount of
Speaker 2: experience would not could not be sure. You know, with
Speaker 2: her husband, she'd say, oh, look feel this, and you know,
Speaker 2: all he wants to just get his hand away from her,
Speaker 2: so you know he doesn't with other people. When she
Speaker 2: told him to do that, I would suspect she probably
Speaker 2: waited because she had something gurgling in her stomach and
Speaker 2: you know, they just touched it and felt it and
Speaker 2: you know, just accepted it. And she's wearing the pregnancy
Speaker 2: clothes and she was talking about it online and it
Speaker 2: was really a wonderful actually did I mean she's playing
Speaker 2: a part in the play.
Speaker 3: She pulled it all very well.
Speaker 2: But unfortunately this was reality and the end of the
Speaker 2: line could only have one result, and that was either
Speaker 2: her being found out or someone dying for her to.
Speaker 3: Have what she needed.
Speaker 7: Wow, that's an incredible level of deception, to say the least. Now,
Speaker 7: let's get to Bobby Joe Stinette and how Lisa Montgomery
Speaker 7: came to meet her. Tell us a little bit about
Speaker 7: Bobby Jostinette, Who was she, how old was she, where
Speaker 7: did she live, and how on earth did Lisa Montgomery
Speaker 7: come to meet her? And then these incredible faithful turn
Speaker 7: of events occur.
Speaker 2: Bobby Chair was a lovely, sweet walltown girl. I mean
Speaker 2: the town she came from had a population of three
Speaker 2: hundred and forty seven people, so you know, this was
Speaker 2: little Midwest girl and she and she loved animals, always
Speaker 2: loved animals, had pets of all sorts, which she was
Speaker 2: a little girl, did barrel racing on horses as a teenager,
Speaker 2: and she worked when she was in high school, she
Speaker 2: had a part time job working in the past job,
Speaker 2: and then when she graduated, she continued doing that. And
Speaker 2: she also got into rat terriers. And although she wasn't
Speaker 2: you know, she didn't go to college or anything, she
Speaker 2: was still a very smart girl. And she was on
Speaker 2: her own studying the genetics in breeding the rat terriers,
Speaker 2: and she was following finding things that could go wrong
Speaker 2: and breeding. People were calling her as young as she was,
Speaker 2: she was in her early twenties. They were following her
Speaker 2: to get advice on breeding different pairs together, and she
Speaker 2: would tell them what what the downside was of it.
Speaker 2: I mean, she could figure it all out because she
Speaker 2: knew this stuff up one side and down the other.
Speaker 2: And part of that was being involved with the rat
Speaker 2: terrier group online and she went to these little get
Speaker 2: togethers dog shows through that group, and that is how
Speaker 2: she met Lisa Montgomery. Lisa had rat terriers too, and
Speaker 2: she bred them, and they ran into each other one
Speaker 2: get together at one time. There's a photograph showing the
Speaker 2: two of them together, but they're not sitting next to
Speaker 2: each other. They're both in the same group photographs, so
Speaker 2: I don't think they were real close by any means,
Speaker 2: but they had some interactions. But Lisa knew that if
Speaker 2: she was going to take Bobby Joe's baby, she had
Speaker 2: to be a little sneakier than that. So what happened
Speaker 2: is Bobby Joe had initially said she was going to
Speaker 2: have a boy, but the woman in the group who
Speaker 2: was supposed to have a boy had a miscarriage. So
Speaker 2: suddenly Lisa is saying she's going to have a girl
Speaker 2: because she found someone else in the group who posted
Speaker 2: their pregnant.
Speaker 3: Picture online, and that was Bobby Joe.
Speaker 2: And it's a horrible thing, but a pregnant woman should
Speaker 2: never post her picture or talk about it in.
Speaker 3: An open form online.
Speaker 2: Should be allowed to but it simply isn't safe because
Speaker 2: they are not only just people bet oncessarian abduction, but
Speaker 2: there's people been on infant abduction too, Who will take
Speaker 2: advantage of that? The list of dos and don't add
Speaker 2: this on the centers A website tells you, you know,
Speaker 2: you don't put your picture online. You don't put one
Speaker 2: of those few little thinker Blue Sports Senior Yard saying
Speaker 2: without a baby, that's like inviting trouble. And it's a
Speaker 2: shame that the world is that way, but it just is.
Speaker 7: Did the website already have those warnings on? There are
Speaker 7: those that advice.
Speaker 2: No, no. The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's
Speaker 2: website had that it's not particularly common knowledge. And and you know,
Speaker 2: she thought she was in a group of life minded
Speaker 2: people and and she was open and sharing with them
Speaker 2: and trusted them. And someone came on with an email
Speaker 2: address of Fisher for Children and contacted a friend of
Speaker 2: Bobby Joch and said she was looking for puppy, and
Speaker 2: he got her connected with Bobby Choe and Lisa set
Speaker 2: out to go to her house to pick up the puppy.
Speaker 7: Now, how long was Lisa Montgomery looking for rat terriers?
Speaker 7: I mean he said she had been breeding rat terriers
Speaker 7: as well, oh for years.
Speaker 2: That just had to be something she took advantage.
Speaker 3: Of Yeah, it wasn't.
Speaker 2: It wasn't something she initiated for this purpose, but it
Speaker 2: was because.
Speaker 3: She was in a group.
Speaker 2: With people that were pretty open with each other and
Speaker 2: sharing information. She saw that as an opportunity to take
Speaker 2: advantage of.
Speaker 7: Okay, now, let's you're going to jump to a question
Speaker 7: that I was going to ask anyway, and I wanted
Speaker 7: to know what the significance of that fact was that
Speaker 7: you were speaking about that you talk about, you do
Speaker 7: include in your book other cases of child abductions that
Speaker 7: are very similar to this. Yes, killing, killing a woman
Speaker 7: and stealing the baby. Can you go back just before
Speaker 7: we go into the crime itself and tell me what
Speaker 7: Lisa Montgomery knew about another crime that was very very
Speaker 7: similar and what its significance is and was in this
Speaker 7: particular case.
Speaker 2: Well, there was a woman named Goodson who had a
Speaker 2: year earlier killed a woman in Oklahoma to steal her baby,
Speaker 2: and that did not go well. Effie was caught, the
Speaker 2: baby died, and Lisa was aware of this story and
Speaker 2: she told a friend, well, she she got caught because
Speaker 2: he was so stupid. And what Lisa saw from that
Speaker 2: is that you don't steal a baby out of the
Speaker 2: same town where you live, and you don't steal one
Speaker 2: too early to survive, and you've come prepared to do
Speaker 2: do the incision of the baby in a.
Speaker 3: Way that it will keep the baby safe.
Speaker 2: They found that in addition to that, she had studied
Speaker 2: online videos of cesarean sections of coats, So she was
Speaker 2: prepared and she brought the materials with her that she
Speaker 2: would need.
Speaker 7: Now what you're talking about, she brought everything that she needed.
Speaker 7: Let's go to the actual meeting. Let's go to weve
Speaker 7: already set it up that they meet through this chat line,
Speaker 7: and they're talking about she wants to buy a rat
Speaker 7: terrier from Bobby Josinette. Now' continue from there and give
Speaker 7: us the fateful turn of events that really this story
Speaker 7: is centered on.
Speaker 2: Well, she left all her home in Melbourne, Kansas, which
Speaker 2: fix about an hour outside of Kansas City, and her
Speaker 2: route would have taken her up to Kansas City and
Speaker 2: then passing Joseph's, Missouri, and then up into that north
Speaker 2: west corner near Iowa, and that is where Skidmore is
Speaker 2: and that is where Bobby Joe lived. And she came
Speaker 2: up on her small street to this little unassuming life
Speaker 2: bungalow and walked up to the door, and no one
Speaker 2: really knows what happened when Lisa.
Speaker 3: Was at that door.
Speaker 2: When Bobby Joe came to the door, she was expecting somebody
Speaker 2: else named Darling's Victor, and there was someone that had
Speaker 2: to at least have looked slightly.
Speaker 3: Familiar to her.
Speaker 2: Did she notice right away, forcing Lisa montgovery to force
Speaker 2: her way into the house, or did she just let
Speaker 2: it fly thinking she saw this one somewhere but didn't
Speaker 2: think anything of it.
Speaker 3: We don't know. But they did end up in the.
Speaker 2: Spare bedroom, which was used for a little kennel for
Speaker 2: her rat carriers, and it was there that Lisa took
Speaker 2: out a rope and put it around her neck and
Speaker 2: strangled her till she passed out. She with Bobby on
Speaker 2: the floor, Lisa got next to her and made the
Speaker 2: first cut to remove the baby. At that point, Bobby
Speaker 2: Joe came back around, got to her feet, unbelievably bleeding
Speaker 2: the way she was, and struggled and fought until she
Speaker 2: was straggled again, and then Bobby Joe finished what she
Speaker 2: needed to do, took the left the baby up and
Speaker 2: took it with her and fled the home and started
Speaker 2: driving back to actually to to peek up, where she
Speaker 2: called her husband and said that she just had a baby.
Speaker 2: They were evacuating the hospital and she couldn't drive all
Speaker 2: the way back by herself, and she needed him to
Speaker 2: come and pick her up at his gas through place.
Speaker 2: So he did, and he was delighted. He picked up
Speaker 2: picked up her the baby, and then one of their
Speaker 2: older teenage kids with a license, drove the other vehicle
Speaker 2: back home, and he was thrilled. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: he was one of those guys that, you know, you
Speaker 2: just love a baby, like a lot of us do.
Speaker 2: And they got up the next morning and they went
Speaker 2: to the community hang out cafe and took the baby
Speaker 2: around table to table. They went by the minister's house
Speaker 2: and showed off their little baby, Abigae, and the preachers
Speaker 2: was said something about well s was just born is
Speaker 2: a head too perfect, which is typical of a Cincerian
Speaker 2: birth child, and.
Speaker 3: Lisa said something said.
Speaker 2: All my children are like that, and her husband corrected
Speaker 2: and told her, you know, please, and so the you know,
Speaker 2: they went on doing this and they went back home
Speaker 2: and while they were in the house, the police came
Speaker 2: to their door.
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Speaker 3: Plus Okay, let's look listen to the child.
Speaker 7: Okay, let's stop you right there, because I want to
Speaker 7: go back just a little bit. Bobby Joe has been
Speaker 7: killed and murdered, and then the horror is just unfolding, obviously,
Speaker 7: while Lisa Montgomery is pawning off this newborn as her own,
Speaker 7: and it's actually working her husband and other family members,
Speaker 7: and you say're going around to the community store and
Speaker 7: after the minister's home, and they're all looking at the
Speaker 7: baby and accepting it as hers. At least so far.
Speaker 7: Now back at the crime scene, at the horror scene,
Speaker 7: I should say, who discovers the body? And then what happens?
Speaker 3: Oh, that was the worst thing.
Speaker 2: Bobby Joe's mother comes into the house to see how
Speaker 2: our dwn's doing.
Speaker 7: How long after the murder?
Speaker 2: Probably only about her an hour, okay or less.
Speaker 3: You know, it's a very short amount of time. Her
Speaker 3: mother just worked a couple blocks.
Speaker 2: Away and she came in and there she found her
Speaker 2: only child, I mean her only daughter, laying on the floor, bloody,
Speaker 2: looking like her stomach exploded. And she called nine to
Speaker 2: one one and immediately tried to do CPR. When the
Speaker 2: sheriff showed up, he joined in helping her with CPR
Speaker 2: until the amts got there and took her off in
Speaker 2: an ambulance, but she was already dead. And that is
Speaker 2: when it was after she was gone, actually that Bobby
Speaker 2: Jay's mother said where's the baby? And he said, what baby?
Speaker 2: And that's when they learned that the baby was missing.
Speaker 2: And then they had a problem with amber alert because
Speaker 2: technically you have to have a description of the child
Speaker 2: and what the child was bearing and stuff like that
Speaker 2: in order to get an amber alert. But no one
Speaker 2: but the killer had ever seen this bab Well, there
Speaker 2: were some strings pools with a congressman helped make it
Speaker 2: happen so they could get out in the Amber alert.
Speaker 2: And it was the Amber Alert that actually was the
Speaker 2: big help in finding the baby because someone that the
Speaker 2: person that set up the sale and someone in North
Speaker 2: Carolina involved in rat terriers too, were able to give
Speaker 2: information about the possible communications on the computer and by
Speaker 2: doing that they were able to track down to the
Speaker 2: internet service provider the location of the phone call, I
Speaker 2: mean the emails, so they knew exactly where the house
Speaker 2: was at that time.
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Speaker 2: At point and they they contacted the police the birstplace
Speaker 2: because of the Amber alert.
Speaker 7: So it was it was not based on the forensic
Speaker 7: examination itself. It was based on this straight with least
Speaker 7: work that had said listening.
Speaker 2: At the same time, okay, the guy was analyzing the
Speaker 2: computer that the cops were talking to people and getting information,
Speaker 2: and it was like, you know, it all came together
Speaker 2: all at once. So it was a combination of both things.
Speaker 7: Now, how many hours between her murder and of the
Speaker 7: police knocking on the door of Lese Montgomery and her
Speaker 7: husband's home questioning her about the baby that.
Speaker 3: She had at this time just twenty four hours.
Speaker 7: Less than twenty four hours. So, like you say, it's
Speaker 7: one of the true crime success stories if there is
Speaker 7: a happy ending somewhat. This is one of those rare
Speaker 7: cases for sure.
Speaker 3: And one of the.
Speaker 2: Odd things was when the police came into their home,
Speaker 2: they were sitting in the living room, the television was
Speaker 2: falling and the Amber alert was scrolling on the bottom
Speaker 2: of the screen.
Speaker 7: Wow. I read in your book that the husband was
Speaker 7: only briefly considered a suspect whatsoever. But give us the
Speaker 7: reaction of the husband and the immediate family, and then
Speaker 7: afterwards you could tell us a little bit about the
Speaker 7: town's reaction. Melverne, Kansas is a small community as well.
Speaker 7: And then of course we're going to have to be
Speaker 7: talking about what happened in Skidmore and the reaction in
Speaker 7: Skidmore itself too.
Speaker 2: So well, you know, put Kevin, I mean, he had
Speaker 2: no idea as far as he was concerned. This was
Speaker 2: his baby and the police are wanting to take his
Speaker 2: baby away, and he was like he couldn't understand what
Speaker 2: was going on because he really didn't know what.
Speaker 3: Was going on.
Speaker 2: Lisa did and pretty much gave up kind of quickly,
Speaker 2: under questioning and prodding.
Speaker 3: She turned the baby over.
Speaker 2: But Kevin, I mean, even the next day he called
Speaker 2: and asked when he was going to get his baby back.
Speaker 3: You know, he just he.
Speaker 2: Really thought it was his child. So it was a
Speaker 2: very perplexing thing for him. But you know, he not
Speaker 2: only did he have an alibi, but the sincerity of
Speaker 2: his response was there. And you know, you talk to
Speaker 2: people who've worked with the men who have been in
Speaker 2: this position, and they said, you know, a lot of
Speaker 2: people automatically assume that Kevin must have been stupid. But
Speaker 2: the bottom line is that they know up doctors, lawyers,
Speaker 2: and even a judge who who went through, uh, the
Speaker 2: experience of a sake pregnancy that she believed that they
Speaker 2: believed some of them were a sincerean abductions falls were
Speaker 2: infant abductions. But these husbands really believed it was their
Speaker 2: child because of the psychology and the relationship and uh,
Speaker 2: their their inability to even conceive of someone doing a
Speaker 2: crime like that.
Speaker 7: Yes, it is pretty hard to even imagine that long comprehend. Now,
Speaker 7: there was other family members, wasn't there if I'm not
Speaker 7: correct of a night incorrect? Wasn't there some of Lisa
Speaker 7: Montgomery's children from a previous marriage also in the home
Speaker 7: at the time when she tried to crass off the newborn.
Speaker 2: Yes, and they bought it.
Speaker 3: I mean they were only teenagers.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, mom says she's Pregnant's who's going.
Speaker 3: To question mom and say, oh, you are not.
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, here's the proof she said she
Speaker 2: was pregnant, even if we doubted.
Speaker 3: Her, Here is the baby.
Speaker 2: And you know, teenage girls, particularly a baby, they go notts,
Speaker 2: and they were just busy taking pictures of her and
Speaker 2: wanted to take turns holding her, and and you know,
Speaker 2: it was.
Speaker 3: It was a very.
Speaker 2: Normal family reaction to the arrival of a new baby.
Speaker 7: Now what was the Obviously there was an incredible reaction
Speaker 7: in Skidmore, Missouri. And you have included in your book
Speaker 7: sort of the the incredible trail of tears that has
Speaker 7: gone on that has beset this town already. Maybe you
Speaker 7: can go into a little bit of just briefly some
Speaker 7: of the the horrific history that has occurred in this
Speaker 7: small town. And I asked, I'm very curious why did
Speaker 7: you feel compelled to include it in the story itself.
Speaker 2: One of the reasons I felt compelled to include it
Speaker 2: is because this town.
Speaker 3: Is so.
Speaker 2: Haunted by its past and so paranoid about the outside
Speaker 2: world because how they perceived they were treated unfairly in
Speaker 2: the past.
Speaker 3: And it all, it all really.
Speaker 2: Was came to a head with Ken mackleroy, and he
Speaker 2: was the bully of the town. And I imagine a
Speaker 2: lot of people have seen the movie or read the
Speaker 2: book about Ken Macklroy. He was shot down dead in
Speaker 2: the middle of town in broad daylight, and although there
Speaker 2: were at least three thousand witnesses, none of them saw shames.
Speaker 2: And to this day that happened like whoa what thirty
Speaker 2: years ago or so, probably more than that now, but
Speaker 2: more than thirty years ago, and yet no one claims
Speaker 2: to have seen anything. And they still don't know with
Speaker 2: any certainty who saw it and killed Ken mcelhoy.
Speaker 3: But he had been a horrible.
Speaker 2: Influence in the town, even shooting at other people. He
Speaker 2: sent out an old old man that was beloved by
Speaker 2: the town to the hospital near death. And he had
Speaker 2: a crafty lawyer who kept getting him out of horse
Speaker 2: thievery other fraud, and just one thing after another, and
Speaker 2: he never went to jail. And the townspeople just finally
Speaker 2: had enough.
Speaker 7: What size town are we talking about? What it will
Speaker 7: be the population of this town, so we can get.
Speaker 2: It sort of three hundred and forty seven.
Speaker 7: Wow, Okay, a very small town. You talked about this
Speaker 7: particular event being one of them the events. Can you
Speaker 7: give me some more events in Skidmore, Missouri? You know,
Speaker 7: the Stanette family itself had so many, so much batter
Speaker 7: luck again to say the least, undersaving.
Speaker 2: When I talked to people about the McElroy story. One
Speaker 2: of the things they said to me, almost universally, was,
Speaker 2: don't just tell about that. We're not the only one.
Speaker 2: This isn't the only crime here. You need to tell
Speaker 2: the whole story. And they were kind of passionate about that.
Speaker 2: And then when I went to one of the Bobby
Speaker 2: Joe's grandmother's by marriage, and I sat down in her
Speaker 2: kitchen and she said, it is horrible what happened to
Speaker 2: Bobby Joe. But this family has has had more than
Speaker 2: this happened in the last five years. Others have died,
Speaker 2: and she wanted that story told. So I took the
Speaker 2: story of her other grandchild who was beaten to death
Speaker 2: in domestic violence. And I took the story of another
Speaker 2: grand trial who had gone missing from his home and
Speaker 2: police suspected he was abducted, tortured and murdered by this
Speaker 2: sicko that they hadn't bar behind bars on jobornographic charges,
Speaker 2: but they can't seem to pen any murder on it
Speaker 2: because he was very good at disposing of evidence. So,
Speaker 2: you know, the people wanted these stories told, and I
Speaker 2: couldn't go into their community and take from them information
Speaker 2: and not give back something, and.
Speaker 3: It was just fascinating to me to know the history.
Speaker 2: Of this town and to know how much sorrow was
Speaker 2: in this small group of three and voice other people,
Speaker 2: one family in five years, losing three young people is unbelievable.
Speaker 7: Right, Lisa Montgomery was arrested and charged for I assume
Speaker 7: of kidnapping and murder of Bobby Josinette. What were the
Speaker 7: official charges that she was charged with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there would there a number of kidnapping charges. I
Speaker 2: think there were a couple of them because Ted holding
Speaker 2: Bobby Captain was kidnapping charge and taking the child across
Speaker 2: the state lines and murder and murder. So she and
Speaker 2: that's that's who got into the death penalty because there
Speaker 2: were kidnapping with murder charges and she was tried in
Speaker 2: federal courts.
Speaker 7: Now, you know, the thing is uh for our audience,
Speaker 7: there are there may be some people listening in Canada
Speaker 7: and some people and other jurisdictions other than the United States,
Speaker 7: and so laws are a little bit different in court
Speaker 7: are a little bit different. Now when we look at
Speaker 7: a particular case like this, most people will have to
Speaker 7: ask the question despite the background that you've given, given
Speaker 7: that there's there is a lot of evidence of premeditation
Speaker 7: on her part, very calculating. Why is there not at
Speaker 7: least the fact that she's completely obsessed with being pregnant
Speaker 7: and that deception and she almost seems to be out
Speaker 7: of touch with reality in terms of being able to
Speaker 7: get away with such an incredible, incredible abduction. Isn't there
Speaker 7: something to be said that there may be, there should
Speaker 7: have been, or could have been a mitigating factor to
Speaker 7: to fight the death penalty charge itself in terms of
Speaker 7: the death penalty has to have If you're going to
Speaker 7: not have a death penalty and have a life imprisonment imposed,
Speaker 7: there has to be some mitigating factors. Now, tell us
Speaker 7: a little bit about about that.
Speaker 2: You could argue that her mental health was a medigating factor,
Speaker 2: the fact that she was assaulted sexually by a step
Speaker 2: parent was a midigating factor. But when it comes down
Speaker 2: to actually put pleading guilty by insanity, the law is
Speaker 2: very narrow. I think it is a bit too narrow.
Speaker 2: For example, you take angry and Yates, who drowned her
Speaker 2: five children.
Speaker 3: She was there were long.
Speaker 2: Records of her psychosis and escape from reality, and while
Speaker 2: it was probably a fact that she knew what she
Speaker 2: did was against the law. She did not feel like
Speaker 2: it was essentially wrong because God told her to do
Speaker 2: it and this is the way to favor children's souls.
Speaker 2: So but still, the first time around she was found
Speaker 2: jilting't given the death penalty that since been changed.
Speaker 3: On appeal, But.
Speaker 2: The bottom line was they felt the fact that she
Speaker 2: knew it was against law put her in death penalty category.
Speaker 2: I strongly disagreed when she got that death penalty. I
Speaker 2: thought that was wrong because she did have a track record.
Speaker 3: Of serious mental illness. Lisa Recovery, on the.
Speaker 2: Other hand, did not have that history. She had a
Speaker 2: history of being selfish and self obsessed, but not of
Speaker 2: mental illness. And it is clear from the evidence of
Speaker 2: what she did and how she planned the crime for
Speaker 2: months and how she covered it up, and the beliefs
Speaker 2: want because that I mean, this was premeditated and it
Speaker 2: was obvious that she knew it was wrong, but she
Speaker 2: didn't care because it was right for her, And she
Speaker 2: didn't care that Bobby Joe was lying dead because it
Speaker 2: gave her what she wanted, not only to have a baby,
Speaker 2: but she had a baby that had never looked at
Speaker 2: and imprinted on any other woman, So this baby would
Speaker 2: be hers.
Speaker 3: And no one could take that child away.
Speaker 2: That is what she believed. She was wrong in that,
Speaker 2: but that's what she believed.
Speaker 7: Now, you talked about the trial, and you don't go
Speaker 7: too much into the trial at all in the book,
Speaker 7: and I wanted to ask you, first off, why you
Speaker 7: felt that it wasn't necessary to do that and what
Speaker 7: did actually transpire in the trial in terms of the
Speaker 7: death penalty and where is she in terms of the
Speaker 7: appeal now? And lastly, if you know anything about Missouri,
Speaker 7: what is their sort of track record in having a
Speaker 7: death penalty go forward? Well, California, for example, slow and
Speaker 7: Florida is very quick. So where is Missouri?
Speaker 2: This is outside of this is outside of state cure
Speaker 2: of stiction. It is irrelevant because this happened in Florida court.
Speaker 2: I mean federal court. So the federal this is federal law.
Speaker 3: I see, and uh yeah.
Speaker 2: And the defense don't give as many death penalties as
Speaker 2: as the state as some states do, but they do
Speaker 2: give some and they usually do eventually carry it off.
Speaker 2: I think their average is somewhere around a dozen years
Speaker 2: after the crime. But he is the trial being in
Speaker 2: federal court meant that nobody was allowed to come in
Speaker 2: with a camera or a video camera. There was no
Speaker 2: audio recording, no kind of recording at all, which is
Speaker 2: which is what usually happens in federal court. So uh available, I imagine,
Speaker 2: But you know, you know how much of those things lost? Sure,
Speaker 2: tens of thousands of dollars, you know, So it's just
Speaker 2: not realistic. And he said, but she did. She was
Speaker 2: found guilty and she got the death sence. There has
Speaker 2: been one of people that's gone through that she is lost.
Speaker 2: And although I don't know if a second appeal is commenced,
Speaker 2: there's usually is a second one in a death penalty case,
Speaker 2: but because it's federal court that that just might be different.
Speaker 3: But I don't think so. I think there is.
Speaker 2: One of them is a habeas writ and another one's
Speaker 2: new evidence written.
Speaker 3: They usually come through with both of them, So.
Speaker 2: I imagine that that one is the second appeal is
Speaker 2: in early stages. But she's in a federal prison in
Speaker 2: love and.
Speaker 7: Worth, Love and worth, okay, can so let's talk about
Speaker 7: the happy aspect of this, and that is Lisa Montgomery
Speaker 7: named the young girl Abigail, but that wasn't her. She
Speaker 7: has been named another name, so maybe could tell what
Speaker 7: the young girl's name is, how she's doing, and give
Speaker 7: us a little bit of that success story right now
Speaker 7: with the young girl.
Speaker 2: Well, the little girl, as I had said earlier, survived
Speaker 2: this brutal birth and was returned to her her mother
Speaker 2: and I mean not to her, excuse me, to her family,
Speaker 2: to her father's dead. And and he hadn't really cared
Speaker 2: for the name Tory that Bobby Joe had picked out
Speaker 2: for the baby, but he kept it anyway, and she
Speaker 2: would be I guess about what five years old now,
Speaker 2: four years old now.
Speaker 3: And.
Speaker 2: There was a little bit of a custody fluff up
Speaker 2: between her father and her maternal grandmother, but they work
Speaker 2: that out in the courts, and the father does have
Speaker 2: custody and the grandmother does get visitations. So see leaning
Speaker 2: forward with her little life and is really lucky to
Speaker 2: be alive. And it's going to be hard some days.
Speaker 2: She's gonna have to learn the whole truth about her
Speaker 2: mother and what happened to her, and it's gonna be
Speaker 2: difficult to deal with.
Speaker 7: Me. Yeah, I can imagine the thing. There was another
Speaker 7: sad aspect of it too, is that that Tory's grandmother,
Speaker 7: Bobby Jill's mother is actually ends up not being a
Speaker 7: big winner out of this as well, not only having
Speaker 7: the horror offying her daughter killed. That there has been
Speaker 7: some animosity we'll say, between jeb or zeb Stinnett and
Speaker 7: and it hasn't been smooth sailing for her to have
Speaker 7: access to her granddaughter.
Speaker 2: No, you know, and and and that is very unfortunate.
Speaker 2: But when when you think about so, when when there's
Speaker 2: a loss of a child involved, there there there's really
Speaker 2: high emotion. And I think that all sorts of events
Speaker 2: afterwards are perceived in different ways by the mother who
Speaker 2: has lost a child and by the husband has lost
Speaker 2: the wife. And I think conflict is is unfortunately true.
Speaker 3: I mean, so many.
Speaker 2: Married couples who lose a child end up divorcing, so uh,
Speaker 2: it's not surprising there was conflict, but there there's been
Speaker 2: some mediation and most of that has been worked out.
Speaker 2: I mean, nobody ever gets as much of a loved
Speaker 2: child as they want, but I think it's been worked
Speaker 2: out fairly equitably so that Barbige's mother does have time
Speaker 2: with the child and is a part.
Speaker 3: Of her life.
Speaker 7: Oh that's great. I wanted to also talk you did
Speaker 7: include six other examples of very similar murder, and we
Speaker 7: did talk about the one involving a lady named Fie.
Speaker 7: But maybe you could tell us just briefly give us
Speaker 7: some of the other examples, because there are a couple
Speaker 7: examples that are at least as bad or even worse
Speaker 7: than this. And again, why did you feel compelled to
Speaker 7: include those in this story? I mean, I think I
Speaker 7: have a good idea, but just for audience might be curious,
Speaker 7: why would you have included these and give us a
Speaker 7: brief background just on a couple of these.
Speaker 3: Well, I.
Speaker 2: Didn't include it to be solations, which is what I
Speaker 2: think some people thought. I included it because I had
Speaker 2: been so ignorant before I came to this case that
Speaker 2: I didn't know that this was happening. And I didn't
Speaker 2: want anyone else to walk away from this book thinking
Speaker 2: this is once in a lifetime thing, because one thing
Speaker 2: I learned from the experts I talked to was that
Speaker 2: women needed to take steps to protect themselves. So they
Speaker 2: needed to know about more of these cases to know
Speaker 2: that it was it did happen before, this wasn't the
Speaker 2: only time, and they needed to be careful and needed
Speaker 2: to be cautious and listen to their instincts about people
Speaker 2: and protect themselves. So, you know, it was an educational
Speaker 2: thing for me, and I was essentially sharing that education
Speaker 2: with others. I mean, that's how I saw it from
Speaker 2: the beginning. And there were there were some cases where
Speaker 2: you feel bad for someone being so disillusioned, but then.
Speaker 3: You see what they do.
Speaker 2: You know, like this emergency room technician, she was like
Speaker 2: thirty one years old, she's been divorced. She was a
Speaker 2: cancer survivor that because of the cancer, she had to
Speaker 2: lose her her of her her baby producing capability when
Speaker 2: they performed a hysterectomy, and she attempted to adopt three
Speaker 2: times and could never succeed in that. So it seemed
Speaker 2: like the answers to prayer. When her unmarried Nice got
Speaker 2: pregnant and said she could adopt the child. But but
Speaker 2: then the niece changed her mind and she said that
Speaker 2: she was going to keep her baby, and you know,
Speaker 2: that was that, and so Aaron decided to take the
Speaker 2: baby away from her before it was born, and and
Speaker 2: that and that that was what she did. And it
Speaker 2: ended up that the baby died as well, and so
Speaker 2: no one got anything positive.
Speaker 3: Out of that.
Speaker 2: Uh, but it was I.
Speaker 3: Mean, I mean, there's just so many.
Speaker 2: Horrible cases. Michelle Bica, who decorated the room, brought tons
Speaker 2: of baby clothes, installed a monitor, told her husband she
Speaker 2: was pregnant. They tore birth to selling us together and
Speaker 2: talked about the baby's future, and you make all sorts
Speaker 2: of plans. And she went on just a short distance
Speaker 2: away from her own to another woman's house, claiming she
Speaker 2: was interested in the jeep they had advertised for sale,
Speaker 2: and she pulled out a hand, got and shot the
Speaker 2: woman in the back and she was killed instantly, and
Speaker 2: she removed the baby boy and buried the mother. I mean,
Speaker 2: it was just it's just horrible, horrible loss of life
Speaker 2: for the stupidest.
Speaker 3: Selfish reasons.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it seems incredible that you know, your the book
Speaker 7: Baby Me Mine is an incredible story, and you would
Speaker 7: think this would be a very rare occurrence. And when
Speaker 7: you put in six other occurrences that are equally as bizarre,
Speaker 7: you come to realize that this is another a new
Speaker 7: frightening menace. It's a new another new aspect. There's serial killers,
Speaker 7: and then there's serial killers that want to contact the media,
Speaker 7: and then there's now this phenomenon, and there have been.
Speaker 2: More cases since Lisa Montgomery committed this crime.
Speaker 3: You know, there was.
Speaker 2: One case where where the killer cut open the woman's
Speaker 2: body with the car key.
Speaker 7: Yes, oh, incredible, incredible, you know, it's.
Speaker 3: Just it's just horrible.
Speaker 2: I mean, uh, but you know, and what was shocking
Speaker 2: to me is someone like Lisa Montgomery, who has actually
Speaker 2: given birth before, who understands what it's like to have
Speaker 2: a baby in your own body, and that she could
Speaker 2: commit a crime like this is far more appalling to
Speaker 2: me than someone who's never had a child, because they
Speaker 2: don't completely get it.
Speaker 7: Yes, absolutely. I was going to ask you, how did
Speaker 7: working on this story affect you? Just basically the last question,
Speaker 7: how did working on this hardly affect you?
Speaker 2: This was the most difficult book I've written, and I
Speaker 2: think a lot of reason for that is that I
Speaker 2: had a daughter about the same age as Bobby Joe,
Speaker 2: and it was easy to think, you know, of you know,
Speaker 2: oh my god, what if it was my daughter and
Speaker 2: if I found her body like that, and the whole
Speaker 2: thing kind of it tore me up. And and you know,
Speaker 2: I talked to her mother on the phone several times
Speaker 2: but every time we talked, she tried to answer her
Speaker 2: question and break into tears and she was choking and
Speaker 2: she couldn't talk to me. Ended up, I got all
Speaker 2: the information from her secondhand, from her close friend, because
Speaker 2: she was not able to even talk about it. It
Speaker 2: devastated her life. I mean, it devastated so many people
Speaker 2: in Skidmore and people in the Ratteria community that knew
Speaker 2: and loved Bobby Joe. The impact of this crime went
Speaker 2: so far. And you look at Bobby Joe and it
Speaker 2: seemed like anyone who knew her liked her, loved her.
Speaker 2: I mean, she was just a sweet, wonderful young woman.
Speaker 2: And he's gone.
Speaker 7: Yes, and the only I could say, the only upshot
Speaker 7: is the child. But it's going to be a difficult
Speaker 7: and an incredible time when that fate of her mother
Speaker 7: has explained to her and.
Speaker 2: She has been robbed of someone who would have probably
Speaker 2: been a wonderful mother.
Speaker 7: Well. Absolutely, absolutely, Well, I want to thank you, Diane.
Speaker 7: I've just wanted to for our audience's sake, if you
Speaker 7: have a website, if you could give us your website address.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's www dot Dianefanning dot com. And I have
Speaker 2: a sample chapters of all my books on there so
Speaker 2: they can go and read and see which one interest them.
Speaker 7: And you have. This is the tenth book published by
Speaker 7: Saint Martin's Press. This had come out in two thousand
Speaker 7: and six, I believe, and it's called a Baby b Mine.
Speaker 7: An incredible book. And I want to thank you very much,
Speaker 7: Diane for a very informative program, and thank you so
Speaker 7: much for being so generous to come on and talk
Speaker 7: about this incredible story and your equally incredible book.
Speaker 2: It was a pleasure to talk with you.
Speaker 3: Dane good luck.
Speaker 7: If you're ready to get him well, Thank you very much,
Speaker 7: Diane Fanning, and I hope to talk to you again soon.
Speaker 7: Have a good note out.
Speaker 3: Bye bye bye bye.
Speaker 7: Yeah. And next week's guest is Don Lassiter, and he
Speaker 7: is the author of Die for Me, the horrifying story
Speaker 7: of sadistic killer partners Leonard Lake and Charles ng who,
Speaker 7: inspired by a fictional book called The Collector, abducted women
Speaker 7: and prison imprisoning them in a homemade dungeon, torturing, raping,
Speaker 7: and murdering them, all the while videotaping their ghastly deats.
Speaker 7: It is an incredible story and Die for me in
Speaker 7: an amazing book. The following week is Kathy Scott, author
Speaker 7: of The Rough Guide to True Crime. After that is
Speaker 7: Nick Prown, author of Lethal Marriage, The case of Canada's
Speaker 7: Paul Bernardo Carlo Hamalka. One of the most shocking cases
Speaker 7: of all time. And if you're not familiar with this case,
Speaker 7: in this book, I was gonna says, wow, check this
Speaker 7: interview out. Definitely. That's Lethal Marriage by Nick proNT incredible story.
Speaker 7: In the following weeks, Catherine Casey, author of Descent into Hell,
Speaker 7: will be appearing on the program, and a woman named
Speaker 7: Maurra Martingale, author of an incredible book called Cannibal Killers,
Speaker 7: will be discussing her book. In March, we'll have Philip
Speaker 7: Carlo making an appearance talking about Richard Ramirez, the Nightstalker.
Speaker 7: Also in March, Stevie Cameron, author of The Picton Files,
Speaker 7: the story behind Willie Pickton and his trial again one
Speaker 7: of the most shocking serial killers of all time. If
Speaker 7: you haven't heard of Willie Picton, go to Crime Library
Speaker 7: and check it out. Credible. Also in March, Terry Sullivan,
Speaker 7: the prosecuting attorney who successfully investigated and prosecuted and wrote
Speaker 7: a definitive book about John Wayne Gacy. Sometime down the
Speaker 7: road after that, Sue Russell, author of Lethal Intent, the
Speaker 7: story behind female serial killer Aileen Warnos, the subject the
Speaker 7: subject of Oscar winning movie Monster, She'll be appearing on
Speaker 7: the program. So we have a bevy of incredible authors
Speaker 7: talking about their books about some of the most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history. So that's every week eight
Speaker 7: o'clock here on block Talk Radio Central Standard time eight
Speaker 7: o'clock live, and anytime on demand on blog Talk Radio.
Speaker 7: So you've been listening to the program True Murder, the
Speaker 7: most shocking killers in true crime history, and the authors
Speaker 7: that have and about them. I will talk to you
Speaker 7: next time.
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