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That's 46 00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:46.239 Hoyes dot com and let's get started. 47 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:56.760 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 48 00:01:56.879 --> 00:01:59.879 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 49 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:07.560 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Stammer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, 50 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:11.560 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 51 00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:15.560 killers in true crime history, True Murder with your host, 52 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:18.479 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 53 00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:30.039 Good evening, You're listening to the program True Murder, the 54 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:33.240 most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors 55 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:36.120 that have written about them, with your host Dan Zupansky, 56 00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:39.439 and my guest this evening is Diane Fanning. And when 57 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:42.759 Diane Fanning was nine years old, a man asking directions 58 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:45.159 stopped and grabbed her by the arm, trying to drag 59 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:49.000 her into his car. An oncoming vehicle honked her horn 60 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:51.280 and there would be abductor. Let go of Diane and 61 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:54.560 fled the scene. She had, however, memorized the car's license 62 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:57.120 plate number, and when police caught up with a man, 63 00:02:57.319 --> 00:02:59.280 he was also arrested for the murder of an eight 64 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:02.560 year old girl killed just a month before. The dramatic 65 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:05.360 event sparked a lifelong interest in the psychology of the 66 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:08.240 criminal mind and led directly to her career as a 67 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:11.599 celebrated true crime author. Published in two thousand, she has 68 00:03:11.639 --> 00:03:14.319 written three books of fiction and has ten true crime 69 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:17.120 books published by Saint Martin's Press. I want to welcome 70 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:20.360 to the program, Diane Fanning. Thank you very much for 71 00:03:20.439 --> 00:03:21.879 agreeing to this interview. Diane. 72 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:24.039 Good evening, Dan, it's a pleasure to be here. 73 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:27.439 Thank you very much. Just going to introduce your book 74 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:29.719 Baby Be Mind, just with a brief synopsis. Then I'll 75 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:32.280 start asking you some questions to explain to our audience 76 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:36.120 this incredible story. Thirty six year old Lisa Montgomery was 77 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:39.000 a mother of four but still wanted to have more children. 78 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:42.439 She claimed, the last time pregnant, she miscarried, and now 79 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:45.439 she was pregnant again and desperate to have another child. 80 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:49.319 On December sixteenth, two thousand and four, in Skidmore, Missouri, 81 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:53.439 Montgomery strangled eight month pregnant Bobby Jill Stinnette and cut 82 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:57.319 from the womb her baby. Lisa Montgomery fled to Melbourne, Kansas, 83 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:00.439 and managed to pass off the abducted newborn their own 84 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:04.080 to her uninsuspecting husband and family members. Thanks to Amber 85 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:08.080 alert and a forensic examination of computer correspondence, the baby 86 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:11.840 was found safe and sound, and Montgomery was arrested at trial. 87 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:14.280 Was she suffering from mental illness or simply a cold 88 00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:17.959 blood of Killer. Welcome to the program, Diane. Let me 89 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:20.319 ask for this very first question. You have written about 90 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:23.120 other cases. I had mentioned that you have ten books 91 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:26.519 under your belt. What specifically made you decide to write 92 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:28.240 about this particular case. 93 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:32.360 Well, Dan, sometimes your interested the case is fostered by 94 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:38.199 some little serendipitous coincidents. And I was initially drawn because 95 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:41.759 December sixteenth, the day that Bobby Jo Stinnett was murdered, 96 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:45.560 was also the day that I lost my grandmother. I 97 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:48.040 had been many years before, but it was an anniversary 98 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:51.240 and I was thinking about her that day, and so 99 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:54.920 I was riveted with this thought of another discipline that day. 100 00:04:55.319 --> 00:05:00.399 And then when I started listening to the first breaking 101 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:04.360 news about this story and heard it was a seesarian abduction, 102 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:08.240 I'd never heard of a crime like that before. I 103 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:12.480 never knew what it even happened, So that is what 104 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:15.240 got my interest. And of course, then when I went 105 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:18.519 to research the crime, I found out that although it 106 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:22.160 is a rare crime, there have been enough of them 107 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:25.279 that the SBI had done a full study on that 108 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:26.560 particular type of crime. 109 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:28.240 In that criminal Now. 110 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:30.120 Where were you living at that particular time. 111 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:32.560 I was living here in Texas. 112 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:36.879 In Texas, Okay. And how far from Skidmore, Missouri is 113 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:39.519 is that in terms of miles for audience? 114 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:42.240 I have no idea, but it was too dark far 115 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:46.839 for me to drive a Kansas city and drove north 116 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:47.360 from there. 117 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:52.199 Okay. Now, in terms of the coverage of the story itself, 118 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:54.879 how far was it reaching in terms of you were 119 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:57.360 in Texas? Was it a big story in Texas? How 120 00:05:57.399 --> 00:05:58.839 far reaching was the story itself? 121 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:02.720 Yes, I think it was a bit everywhere because it 122 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:06.720 made CNN News and of course it was on Nancy 123 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:11.240 Grace and it was pretty much all the national media 124 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:16.279 covered it because it was a spectacular crime with a 125 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:20.879 particularly happy ending. I mean, Bobby Joe was dead, but 126 00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:24.639 the baby survived. In many of these cases the baby 127 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:27.639 died as well. In this case was a little different 128 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:31.959 and the things worked right to recover the baby very 129 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:32.600 very quickly. 130 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:35.040 Okay, Well, you're getting a little bit ahead for our 131 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:37.199 audience that is not familiar with the story. So let's 132 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:40.959 go back a little bit and outline for our audience 133 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:44.759 the killer herself, Lisa Montgomery, what kind of persons in 134 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:47.000 terms of once she was an adult, what is some 135 00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:48.720 of what was she like as a person? And what 136 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:49.879 was some of her background. 137 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:53.000 Well, she came from a family and I think this 138 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:57.120 is important where she had a seal series of stepfathers 139 00:06:57.279 --> 00:07:03.040 and her mother had five children, and every time just 140 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:06.040 about she had a child, it seemed to be to 141 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:09.519 get married or to keep a marriage from breaking up. 142 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:15.199 Her mother never did anything like Lisa did, but she 143 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:21.439 taught her that pregnancy and partnership were two things that winter. 144 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:23.040 Legs, and if you could get pregnant, you could get 145 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:24.639 a man or keep a man. 146 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:29.720 And so unfortunately along the way, one of those men 147 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:34.199 that her mother had married was actually assaulted Lisa when 148 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:38.040 she was a young teenager, and I think that scarred 149 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:43.199 her a lot, and was combined with the dysfunctional family 150 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:47.639 she was raised in, it made someone who wasn't exactly 151 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:51.120 emotionally stable. But I think there was a deeper sigh 152 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:55.199 to her character. I think she was very much the narcissist, 153 00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:59.519 perhaps a malignant narcissist. Everything had to be the way 154 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:03.920 Lee so wanted it to be, and. 155 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:05.319 That's what led her down this road. 156 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.959 And she had she was married, had children of her 157 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:14.560 husband left her, he claimed to be pregnant, he married 158 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:17.879 her again. The pregnancy sort of disappeared. She claimed to 159 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:22.279 be pregnant again, but both of these pregnancies happened outside 160 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:25.480 after she's gotten a tube ligation, So I don't know 161 00:08:25.480 --> 00:08:28.480 how anybody could have thought she was pregnant there. But 162 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:31.639 her first husband kind of got tired of all the 163 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:38.679 game playing and finally the marriage ended for good. And 164 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:44.360 that's when she met her second husband, and she went 165 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:47.120 through a couple of sony pregnancies with him before they 166 00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:50.919 were married. He married her thinking she was pregnant, but 167 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:54.879 then she claimed having miscarriage. Another time she claimed to 168 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:58.720 be pregnant with twins, and then finally when it was 169 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:01.600 obvious that he just have had it with her, that 170 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:05.440 was when she realized that this pregnancy had to be 171 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:09.639 real and she targeted the woman she was going to 172 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:10.519 take the baby from. 173 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:15.480 Now, how many you talk about this is an incredible feature, 174 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:19.360 a psychological feature. Whether this woman is obsessed with holding 175 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:24.679 on to holding onto relationships that are going sour by 176 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:29.360 being constantly being pregnant or expecting a child or and 177 00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:32.480 so this is the feature of her adult life. But 178 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:36.519 how many children does Lisa Montgomery have herself? What kind 179 00:09:36.519 --> 00:09:39.799 of mother is she? And basically what kind of mother 180 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:42.240 is she and how many children does she have before 181 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:43.799 this event happened. 182 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:50.159 He has five children, just like her mother, and she 183 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:56.679 seemed to be a very sporadic mother. Sometimes she seemed 184 00:09:56.720 --> 00:09:59.639 to do the right thing, but other times she would 185 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:03.080 just lay on the sofa and read, and if the 186 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:06.240 kids wanted something to eat, she throw something together, set 187 00:10:06.279 --> 00:10:08.120 a pot on the floor, and they would eat on 188 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:13.080 the floor. She went from acting like a mother to 189 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:18.559 acting very disinterested and very bothered by her children. There 190 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:23.240 is a difference between a newborn and a tiny baby 191 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:26.559 that they look at you for everything and they don't 192 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:27.759 really question you. 193 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:30.639 When children get older. 194 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:35.200 They're not giving as much of the positive feedback that 195 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:37.639 narcissist needs. 196 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:39.360 And so. 197 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:45.039 She did get a lot from that, and she got 198 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:50.840 really more from infants than she got from anyone adult 199 00:10:51.159 --> 00:10:52.360 or any of her own children. 200 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:58.279 No, you talk about narcissism, but was there any diagnosed 201 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:04.480 psychological labels attached to her behavior? Was she seen by 202 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:07.919 psychologists or psychiatrist or is this sort of a diagnosis 203 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:12.679 after the fact. Was her mental illness prominent enough for 204 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:15.879 anybody in her family or ex husband or anyone to 205 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.960 officially have had her see someone is there any record 206 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:20.639 of her, Not. 207 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:28.039 Until she's arrested. Okay, we'll see. Well, go ahead. 208 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:31.879 If you look at narcissism as being on the same 209 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:39.120 spectrum is psychopathy and see progressive degrees, there's different levels 210 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:43.679 of narcissism, and and Lisa checks in, I believe at 211 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:48.799 the level of malignant narcissism, where you are willing to 212 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:55.159 do anything and disregard anyone else's rights or anyone else's 213 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:57.600 life to get what you feel you need. 214 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:00.879 Okay, Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I want 215 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:03.320 to have a good understanding of what narcissism means in 216 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:06.200 this context. And when you're talking about a psychopath for 217 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:08.000 those that still don't know what that is, it's just 218 00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:11.440 complete devoid of conscience. People are able to do things 219 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.639 that normal people would not be able to do. 220 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:16.159 Okay. 221 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:18.639 I wanted to ask you as well as that when 222 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:21.840 you mentioned in the end when she did have her 223 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:27.279 husband and she did steal the child, this had to 224 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:31.279 be first done with her pretending to be pregnant and 225 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:34.799 convincing people that she was pregnant. Now, how did she 226 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:39.399 fool people like her husband and family members and girlfriends 227 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:43.360 that she actually was pregnant. You talked about the tubal ligation. Well, 228 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:46.960 how did this particular husband not know? Can you explain 229 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:50.240 how on earth anyone could have been fooled by her? 230 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:54.399 Or to what extent did she did she fool these people? 231 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:56.600 And about how did she go about it? 232 00:12:57.519 --> 00:12:59.960 Well, you know, when I first started looking into this case, 233 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:02.480 that was something that really confused me. 234 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:04.039 I mean, particularly a husband. 235 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:10.799 I how future the husband's thinking you're pregnant. Well, it's 236 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:13.919 for one thing, her husband did not Kevin did not 237 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:15.639 know that she'd. 238 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:17.840 Had a toub a ligation. Her first husband knew, but 239 00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:19.120 her second husband did not. 240 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:23.919 And uh so that you know, that was part of it. Now, 241 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:27.320 he didn't particularly want any children because he had hers 242 00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:31.159 to raise. He had his own children by a previous relationship, 243 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:34.120 but you know, he's a family kind of guy. He 244 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:37.399 married her in the first place because he thought she 245 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:42.840 was pregnant, so he he was committed for that for 246 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:49.440 that part of the relationship. What happens, according to the 247 00:13:49.480 --> 00:13:53.159 experts I talked to at the National Center for Missing 248 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:58.440 Unexploited Children, is that in most all of these relationships 249 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:06.960 where the staring abduction occurs, the husband or boyfriend has 250 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:15.000 lost interest sexually in his partner, and when she says 251 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:20.559 I'm pregnant, he embraces that because that means he does 252 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:24.720 not have to touch her again. He's got an excuse. 253 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:28.759 I don't want to hurt the baby. It's not the 254 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:31.799 real reason why he's not being intimate with his wife, 255 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:37.679 but it is an acceptable reason. So they're doing that, 256 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:41.159 and meanwhile, she's making sure that her husband never sees 257 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:45.080 her completely naked. So you've got a dynamic that where 258 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:48.240 people are trying. Both people are trying to keep physical 259 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:52.799 space between one and another, and so realizing that she 260 00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:56.080 is pregnant then becomes more different. 261 00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:58.919 Whether or not she's pregnant, it becomes more difficult. 262 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.639 And you complicate that with some of these women are 263 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:08.039 able to swallow air in a way that makes their 264 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:11.799 stomach very rigid. I don't know if you've ever touched 265 00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:15.000 the tummy of a woman carrying a child, but it's 266 00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:19.799 much It's much harder than you know, somebody's fat belly, 267 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:23.879 you know. But if you swallow the air in the 268 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.480 right way, you can make your stomach pooch out and 269 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:30.799 be hard so that somebody with a minimal amount of 270 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:36.120 experience would not could not be sure. You know, with 271 00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:40.200 her husband, she'd say, oh, look feel this, and you know, 272 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:42.279 all he wants to just get his hand away from her, 273 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:46.039 so you know he doesn't with other people. When she 274 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:49.000 told him to do that, I would suspect she probably 275 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:52.759 waited because she had something gurgling in her stomach and 276 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:54.960 you know, they just touched it and felt it and 277 00:15:55.159 --> 00:16:00.759 you know, just accepted it. And she's wearing the pregnancy 278 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:05.960 clothes and she was talking about it online and it 279 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:09.879 was really a wonderful actually did I mean she's playing 280 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:10.720 a part in the play. 281 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:12.639 She pulled it all very well. 282 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:16.720 But unfortunately this was reality and the end of the 283 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:21.320 line could only have one result, and that was either 284 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:27.240 her being found out or someone dying for her to. 285 00:16:27.159 --> 00:16:28.240 Have what she needed. 286 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:33.159 Wow, that's an incredible level of deception, to say the least. Now, 287 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:38.759 let's get to Bobby Joe Stinette and how Lisa Montgomery 288 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:42.279 came to meet her. Tell us a little bit about 289 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:48.600 Bobby Jostinette, Who was she, how old was she, where 290 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:51.519 did she live, and how on earth did Lisa Montgomery 291 00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:54.799 come to meet her? And then these incredible faithful turn 292 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:55.759 of events occur. 293 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:02.480 Bobby Chair was a lovely, sweet walltown girl. I mean 294 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:05.079 the town she came from had a population of three 295 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:08.359 hundred and forty seven people, so you know, this was 296 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:14.839 little Midwest girl and she and she loved animals, always 297 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:17.680 loved animals, had pets of all sorts, which she was 298 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:21.880 a little girl, did barrel racing on horses as a teenager, 299 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:26.519 and she worked when she was in high school, she 300 00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:28.519 had a part time job working in the past job, 301 00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:31.880 and then when she graduated, she continued doing that. And 302 00:17:31.960 --> 00:17:36.960 she also got into rat terriers. And although she wasn't 303 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:40.200 you know, she didn't go to college or anything, she 304 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:44.559 was still a very smart girl. And she was on 305 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:49.160 her own studying the genetics in breeding the rat terriers, 306 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:54.599 and she was following finding things that could go wrong 307 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:58.200 and breeding. People were calling her as young as she was, 308 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:00.680 she was in her early twenties. They were following her 309 00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:07.279 to get advice on breeding different pairs together, and she 310 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:09.640 would tell them what what the downside was of it. 311 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:11.640 I mean, she could figure it all out because she 312 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:13.839 knew this stuff up one side and down the other. 313 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:19.160 And part of that was being involved with the rat 314 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:25.640 terrier group online and she went to these little get 315 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:31.680 togethers dog shows through that group, and that is how 316 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:37.960 she met Lisa Montgomery. Lisa had rat terriers too, and 317 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:42.039 she bred them, and they ran into each other one 318 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:46.480 get together at one time. There's a photograph showing the 319 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:48.559 two of them together, but they're not sitting next to 320 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:50.640 each other. They're both in the same group photographs, so 321 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:53.759 I don't think they were real close by any means, 322 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:59.920 but they had some interactions. But Lisa knew that if 323 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.839 she was going to take Bobby Joe's baby, she had 324 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:07.160 to be a little sneakier than that. So what happened 325 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:12.000 is Bobby Joe had initially said she was going to 326 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:16.039 have a boy, but the woman in the group who 327 00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:19.240 was supposed to have a boy had a miscarriage. So 328 00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:23.039 suddenly Lisa is saying she's going to have a girl 329 00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:26.240 because she found someone else in the group who posted 330 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:27.319 their pregnant. 331 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:30.640 Picture online, and that was Bobby Joe. 332 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:35.759 And it's a horrible thing, but a pregnant woman should 333 00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:38.519 never post her picture or talk about it in. 334 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.720 An open form online. 335 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:45.039 Should be allowed to but it simply isn't safe because 336 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:50.200 they are not only just people bet oncessarian abduction, but 337 00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:54.359 there's people been on infant abduction too, Who will take 338 00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:58.359 advantage of that? The list of dos and don't add 339 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:01.680 this on the centers A website tells you, you know, 340 00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:04.640 you don't put your picture online. You don't put one 341 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:07.559 of those few little thinker Blue Sports Senior Yard saying 342 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:12.400 without a baby, that's like inviting trouble. And it's a 343 00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:15.200 shame that the world is that way, but it just is. 344 00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:18.000 Did the website already have those warnings on? There are 345 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:19.519 those that advice. 346 00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:25.640 No, no. The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's 347 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:30.720 website had that it's not particularly common knowledge. And and you know, 348 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:33.319 she thought she was in a group of life minded 349 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:36.799 people and and she was open and sharing with them 350 00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:45.000 and trusted them. And someone came on with an email 351 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:50.920 address of Fisher for Children and contacted a friend of 352 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:56.519 Bobby Joch and said she was looking for puppy, and 353 00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:02.640 he got her connected with Bobby Choe and Lisa set 354 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:04.880 out to go to her house to pick up the puppy. 355 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:11.480 Now, how long was Lisa Montgomery looking for rat terriers? 356 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:13.759 I mean he said she had been breeding rat terriers 357 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:15.839 as well, oh for years. 358 00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:18.839 That just had to be something she took advantage. 359 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:19.799 Of Yeah, it wasn't. 360 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:24.680 It wasn't something she initiated for this purpose, but it 361 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:26.319 was because. 362 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:27.000 She was in a group. 363 00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:30.799 With people that were pretty open with each other and 364 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:34.680 sharing information. She saw that as an opportunity to take 365 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:35.359 advantage of. 366 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:40.319 Okay, now, let's you're going to jump to a question 367 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:43.240 that I was going to ask anyway, and I wanted 368 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:45.960 to know what the significance of that fact was that 369 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:50.359 you were speaking about that you talk about, you do 370 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:53.599 include in your book other cases of child abductions that 371 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:57.440 are very similar to this. Yes, killing, killing a woman 372 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:00.519 and stealing the baby. Can you go back just before 373 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:04.000 we go into the crime itself and tell me what 374 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:10.000 Lisa Montgomery knew about another crime that was very very 375 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:14.160 similar and what its significance is and was in this 376 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:15.039 particular case. 377 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:22.599 Well, there was a woman named Goodson who had a 378 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:28.519 year earlier killed a woman in Oklahoma to steal her baby, 379 00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:33.319 and that did not go well. Effie was caught, the 380 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:39.720 baby died, and Lisa was aware of this story and 381 00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:44.200 she told a friend, well, she she got caught because 382 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:48.000 he was so stupid. And what Lisa saw from that 383 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:51.200 is that you don't steal a baby out of the 384 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:55.000 same town where you live, and you don't steal one 385 00:22:55.200 --> 00:23:00.079 too early to survive, and you've come prepared to do 386 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:03.880 do the incision of the baby in a. 387 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:08.319 Way that it will keep the baby safe. 388 00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:13.400 They found that in addition to that, she had studied 389 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:18.920 online videos of cesarean sections of coats, So she was 390 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:21.599 prepared and she brought the materials with her that she 391 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:22.160 would need. 392 00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:28.000 Now what you're talking about, she brought everything that she needed. 393 00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:33.359 Let's go to the actual meeting. Let's go to weve 394 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:36.160 already set it up that they meet through this chat line, 395 00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:38.279 and they're talking about she wants to buy a rat 396 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:43.640 terrier from Bobby Josinette. Now' continue from there and give 397 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:48.480 us the fateful turn of events that really this story 398 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:49.000 is centered on. 399 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:55.400 Well, she left all her home in Melbourne, Kansas, which 400 00:23:57.079 --> 00:24:01.960 fix about an hour outside of Kansas City, and her 401 00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:06.359