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Speaker 3: Sensing the everyday.
Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 4: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. This episode of True Murder is brought to
Speaker 6: you by nature Box. Nature Box ships tasty and guilt
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Speaker 6: nature box dot com slash true Murder. Blue Beard is
Speaker 6: the story documenting the history behind the reign of terror
Speaker 6: imposed on Europe by Jille Durey's The Famous blue Beard.
Speaker 6: The author brings the reader into the castles, pageants, battles
Speaker 6: and dungeons of medieval Europe to explore the enigma that
Speaker 6: was the life of the man who fought bravely and
Speaker 6: valiantly alongside Joan of Arc in pursuit of a higher cause,
Speaker 6: then descended into the dark depths of sexual exploitation of children,
Speaker 6: which made him a historical monster. But what is it
Speaker 6: that causes a man to develop to being such a person.
Speaker 6: The author focuses on the man's life and the foundation
Speaker 6: set for his mental and intellectual development, then explores his
Speaker 6: life subsequent to the sword clashing, blood letting battles alongside
Speaker 6: Joan of Arc. She raises questions presents hypothesis from genetic
Speaker 6: disposition to DTSD to explain the demonic action of the man.
Speaker 6: It is a book that gives the reader a breathtaking
Speaker 6: experience and presents thought provoking possibilities as to why a
Speaker 6: man who led of life of valor as a brave
Speaker 6: warrior could descend into the dark depths of depravity. The
Speaker 6: book that we're featuring this evening is Bluebeard, Brave Warrior,
Speaker 6: Brutal Psychopath, with my special guest journalist and author Valerie Ogden.
Speaker 6: Welcome to the program and thank you for agreeing to
Speaker 6: this interview.
Speaker 5: Valerie Ogden, Hi, lovely, thank you for your introduction. It
Speaker 5: was wonderful.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you. This is for those people that think
Speaker 6: that horror and serial killers and all that madness and
Speaker 6: craziness started at Jack the Ripper. Well, have we got
Speaker 6: a story for you here? Noil, let me just ask
Speaker 6: this question. Of all the books that you could have written,
Speaker 6: give us just a little bit of your background without
Speaker 6: giving away the story here at all. But what brought
Speaker 6: you to wanting to write blue Beard? What brought you
Speaker 6: to this project blue Beard?
Speaker 5: Well, it's actually fascinating. I was at the wedding of
Speaker 5: my nephew and it was in an old, lovely church
Speaker 5: in Belgium, and it was I think built for the
Speaker 5: cross bowmen of the thirteenth century, and there were no chairs,
Speaker 5: who had to stand up. And standing next to me
Speaker 5: was this very well dressed man in his Italian suit,
Speaker 5: and he looked at me, and I looked at him,
Speaker 5: and he smiled, and in French, she said, how do
Speaker 5: you like your nephew marrying into the family of a murderer?
Speaker 5: And of course I thought my friend had really gotten rusty,
Speaker 5: and I looked at him, and then the bride came
Speaker 5: in and we couldn't do anything more talking. And so
Speaker 5: when I got to the reception, I went over to him.
Speaker 5: I made a beeline for him, and I said, could
Speaker 5: you explain to me what you just said. Did you
Speaker 5: say that this was my nephew was just married into
Speaker 5: the family of a murder He said, oh, yes, yes,
Speaker 5: he's famous. His name was his nickname was blue Beard. Well,
Speaker 5: the only blue Beard I had known was it's a
Speaker 5: fairy tale written by Charles Perrault. And actually he based
Speaker 5: his fairy tale. He changed his story where his you know,
Speaker 5: his blue Beard killed his wives who were very nosy.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 5: He based it on the true blue Beard, whose name
Speaker 5: was Gidiret, but he changed it from children to wives.
Speaker 5: So that's the only man I knew. And hear this,
Speaker 5: you know, her uncle would not tell me anything more.
Speaker 5: He said, oh, I know nothing more, Go talk to
Speaker 5: my mother. So I went to the mother, and of
Speaker 5: course the mother said, I know nothing he was except
Speaker 5: that he was a knight. We always live in France
Speaker 5: except for you know, her name is Beminice, except for
Speaker 5: Beminice's family who works for the EU. And that was it.
Speaker 5: And I thought, this is very strange. You know this
Speaker 5: man apparently they did tell me he lived in the
Speaker 5: fifteenth century, and I thought, he's been dead for six
Speaker 5: hundred years. Why won't they say anything more? So When
Speaker 5: I got home, I started to do research, and there
Speaker 5: isn't that much in English, which is very interesting. It's
Speaker 5: it's very sort of prejudicial. This is just a horrible man,
Speaker 5: that's all they tell you. They don't tell you he
Speaker 5: was the hero of the Hundred Years War. So I
Speaker 5: became very interested because I had I was a history scholar,
Speaker 5: you know, and college, and I was just curious. And
Speaker 5: so I could read French, which was a great help
Speaker 5: because I couldn't have written this book if it had
Speaker 5: just been English sources.
Speaker 6: Unfortunately incredible. We're going to have to talk about that
Speaker 6: one hundred years War briefly too, and because that's really
Speaker 6: an integral part of this story. But let's start with
Speaker 6: a little bit of the background on Jill Deres himself
Speaker 6: and talking about G two and his mother Maria, and
Speaker 6: so tell us about his early life before we get
Speaker 6: to this obviously very very traumatic year when he was
Speaker 6: eleven years old. So let's talk about Gee two and
Speaker 6: his mother Maria.
Speaker 5: And people did not get married, if they were a
Speaker 5: nobility at that time, for love. They got married for
Speaker 5: you know, combining their their properties and so forth and
Speaker 5: so on, and so these two came from very very
Speaker 5: wealthy in western France, and they took on the name
Speaker 5: of dray He. The father took over a baroness's properties
Speaker 5: because she was the last of that ancestry and she
Speaker 5: had no survivors, and he quadrupled his wealth by doing so.
Speaker 5: And they lived absolutely lavishly in grandiose castles which were incredible.
Speaker 5: I'm sure they were terribly, terribly cold and drafty, but
Speaker 5: you just read about the beauty within these, you know,
Speaker 5: the intricate designs and the mantlepieces and the main eating
Speaker 5: area which is also their social area, and you just think,
Speaker 5: wouldn't you have loved to have been in a warm
Speaker 5: coat and been able to be there to observe what
Speaker 5: was going on. And there's not much known about his mother.
Speaker 5: There's much more about the father was apparently a very
Speaker 5: very decent person, and he really brought up to child
Speaker 5: very well. He had tutors for him. He made sure
Speaker 5: that he was schooled in Latin and Greek before he
Speaker 5: was seven. He could speak both, he could do mathematics.
Speaker 5: You know. I think the father, you know, prided himself
Speaker 5: in bringing up a real sort of of that time,
Speaker 5: more a Renaissance person than even the light Middle Ages.
Speaker 5: And then shall I go into what happened to the father?
Speaker 6: Well before that too, you also you say he provided intellectually,
Speaker 6: he had the tutors, but also a very art He
Speaker 6: exposed him to a very rich artistic life. To he
Speaker 6: balanced that as well too with exposing him to the
Speaker 6: arts as well, didn't he.
Speaker 5: I think he must have, yes, I mean he always
Speaker 5: It's not that clear, but he must have with someone
Speaker 5: at that age, you know, because certainly the grandfather didn't
Speaker 5: too to have an interest in as many aspects of
Speaker 5: the arts as he did. You can pick that up,
Speaker 5: I'm sure yourself. But it certainly doesn't hurt to have
Speaker 5: beautiful tapestries, your beautiful design statuettes which were exquisitely carved.
Speaker 5: And when there weren't even these beautiful tapestries on the wall,
Speaker 5: they had Italian painters who were apparently the best painters
Speaker 5: of the day come in and do ceilings and wall paintings.
Speaker 5: And the floors were of jade, which the ones which
Speaker 5: weren't carpeted. So he was exposed to extravagance and beauty
Speaker 5: all around.
Speaker 6: Now he had a brother just recent arrival in the
Speaker 6: family of the year, and then he was eleven years old,
Speaker 6: and so tell us what happened with the father? What
Speaker 6: happened with the So.
Speaker 5: The father who he adored, who Jildra adored, was out
Speaker 5: hunting for bore in their forest and it's called chantoise,
Speaker 5: and he was gored by the wild boar and he
Speaker 5: had a slow, painful death. Obviously they didn't have many,
Speaker 5: you know, pills that they could give someone, and he
Speaker 5: just died a terrible, terrible death, which obviously Judra witnessed.
Speaker 5: And then his mother about six months later, died. So
Speaker 5: he was left in orphan at age eleven, his brother
Speaker 5: being one who really probably couldn't comprehend anything. And there
Speaker 5: was a father had one of his I guess it
Speaker 5: was his cousins that he wanted to bring up Shedra,
Speaker 5: but the grandfather broke the will and he was able
Speaker 5: to take both Childerray and the brother into his own
Speaker 5: sort of under his own wing. And the reason he
Speaker 5: wanted to do that was he wanted to control the
Speaker 5: vast wealth that Jilt eleven years old inherited, So that's
Speaker 5: what he did. He was almost his name was de Crayon,
Speaker 5: and he was, you know, he dressed in finery. He
Speaker 5: was a noble himself, but he was really almost no
Speaker 5: better than a thug. He invaded his neighbor's properties, he
Speaker 5: would steal, he would do whatever he could to take
Speaker 5: over somebody's property. And this is the influence you know,
Speaker 5: that Gira had, although he sort of left these boys
Speaker 5: alone to do whatever they wanted, which they did. And
Speaker 5: certainly it's interesting because the brother didn't turn out the
Speaker 5: same way at all. But the one thing that this
Speaker 5: thug grandfather did was make sure that Jeure was schooled
Speaker 5: to be a fine squire, to be a very good night,
Speaker 5: which Girdray turned out to be. He turned out to
Speaker 5: want to surpass everyone else. He had that lust to
Speaker 5: be the best. And at the same time, yes, go
Speaker 5: go ahead, sort I was just to say at the
Speaker 5: same time this as I call him. You know, I'm
Speaker 5: just trying to distring its because there's so many French names.
Speaker 5: I don't want to get everyone mixed up. So I'm
Speaker 5: saying thug grandfather, which he really wasn't. He was a noble,
Speaker 5: but he acted like a thug. He cared nothing about
Speaker 5: you know, books or anything of the kind. And of course,
Speaker 5: at this age, at eleven, Girdre could speak Latin fluently,
Speaker 5: which was at that time that's what the nobles did speak.
Speaker 5: And of course the grandfather could barely understand it. He
Speaker 5: didn't want to speak it, so still had that, you know,
Speaker 5: desire to read, which he did as well as the
Speaker 5: A Knight. He had that combination within him.
Speaker 6: But at the same time there was.
Speaker 5: Yes, go ahead, no, I was just going to say
Speaker 5: that because the grandfather really left him to do whatever.
Speaker 5: It's sort of is a sign. And you see that
Speaker 5: with children today when they are left alone. That is
Speaker 5: apparently the worst thing that can happen to a child
Speaker 5: is not to have anyone care for him. And he
Speaker 5: desperately sought his grandfather's affection, which he never got, and
Speaker 5: he tried in all sorts of, as you know with
Speaker 5: the book, sordid ways to get the grandfather's attention, by
Speaker 5: beating up servants, by beating up his compatriots, and the
Speaker 5: grandfather just never cared, never cared. He was more interested
Speaker 5: in acquiring property.
Speaker 6: You talk about the grandfather, though it's in the book,
Speaker 6: you cite an event where he would assemble a mock
Speaker 6: court of twelve and thirteen year old boys, and you
Speaker 6: say this was homosexual in nature so that his grandson
Speaker 6: could dominate these twelve and thirteen year old boys. So
Speaker 6: that's a little bit.
Speaker 5: Yeah. No, I don't think he knew that this was
Speaker 5: going to be homosexual nature. He just had these boys.
Speaker 5: That's how he entertained right, was to bring in these
Speaker 5: courtiers as a mock court. But he wouldn't sit there
Speaker 5: and watch what was going on. I think what happened
Speaker 5: is that, you know, when grandfather wasn't around and some
Speaker 5: of the boys said, no, I don't want to be
Speaker 5: your servant. You know, I'm equal to you. He was
Speaker 5: probably very very strong, and he just he bullied them.
Speaker 5: I mean, he just bullied them. And the thought is
Speaker 5: by one of the authors of French author he thinks
Speaker 5: that it was all what he did was homosexual in
Speaker 5: nature with these boys. But I don't think that the
Speaker 5: grandfather knew what was going on there. I mean, I
Speaker 5: think he just thought that he was probably you know,
Speaker 5: beating them up.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 6: And you also talk about homosexuality how it was regarded
Speaker 6: at that time, the previous centuries before that and at
Speaker 6: that time, so tell us how it's homosexual he was
Speaker 6: regarded at that time anyway.
Speaker 5: Fascinating in the earlier centuries, up until the twelfth century,
Speaker 5: it was accepted. You know, it cared and some of
Speaker 5: the best right was from many homosexuals. And then suddenly,
Speaker 5: somehow this all changed and they began to think that
Speaker 5: homosexuality was equal to best reality. And you know, this
Speaker 5: was performed within the kingdom. You were going to bring
Speaker 5: wrath upon the kingdom, so it was frowned upon and
Speaker 5: really frowned upon, so that you know, if you were
Speaker 5: caught being a homosexual and your third offense, I think
Speaker 5: they put you to death. Judi of course flaunted his homosexuality.
Speaker 5: I think he probably could because of his rank and
Speaker 5: the fact that he had been such a war hero,
Speaker 5: so he could flaunt this. He didn't really flaunt it
Speaker 5: when he was young, I mean, you know, he didn't.
Speaker 5: I think it was known, but it was only at
Speaker 5: the castle's it was not publicly known. But as he
Speaker 5: got older and he came back from the military, he
Speaker 5: literally flaunted it. He had no women in his castles.
Speaker 5: He excused to have women in his castles, so you know,
Speaker 5: his this might be fun to talk about it here.
Speaker 5: The grandfather, of course, wanting to have more property for him,
Speaker 5: married him at sixteen illegally, they dragged this girl who
Speaker 5: lived next door. So what do we say lived next door,
Speaker 5: meaning lived with thousands of acres next door When she
Speaker 5: was on a ride and her father had just died,
Speaker 5: and Judira and the thug grandfather and a bunch of
Speaker 5: their troop took her to a monkst I guess retreat
Speaker 5: and he married the two, which was totally illegal at
Speaker 5: that time because they were fourth cousins. And then like
Speaker 5: two years later or three years later, the sug grandfather
Speaker 5: was able to give a huge amount of money to Rome,
Speaker 5: and instead of this being the marriage annulled, they then
Speaker 5: got married in a huge ceremony because I guess they
Speaker 5: were given a nice stipend for all of this in Rome,
Speaker 5: so he was married. He hated his wife from the beginning.
Speaker 5: He found her to be a total nuisance and really
Speaker 5: never paid attention to her. It was just absolutely there
Speaker 5: a marriage of convenience too, But I think he was
Speaker 5: probably just awful to her, as you know, as later
Speaker 5: turns out, when he came back from the military and
Speaker 5: she went running off and they did have a daughter,
Speaker 5: they went running off to one of her castles, you know,
Speaker 5: way away from him.
Speaker 6: Now, let's introduce a character that's very important to this
Speaker 6: story as well, which is his cousin Roger. And if
Speaker 6: I butcher this last name, correct me, please, Roger brief
Speaker 6: the Brickville.
Speaker 5: You do it very well. That's exact English translation. Yes.
Speaker 5: And he came into the family, no, excellent. He came
Speaker 5: into the family from Normandy when he was a teenager.
Speaker 5: His father had, as everyone in Normandy did, fought the British,
Speaker 5: and all of them were either you know, murdered or
Speaker 5: they escaped, and he escaped, his whole family escaped, and
Speaker 5: being a cousin, a distant cousin from Normandy, he was
Speaker 5: taken into the ducreyon Dey household and so he lived
Speaker 5: with them ever since he was a teenager. And he
Speaker 5: just hated Deray for many reasons. I think because he
Speaker 5: was bully, he was a small man, and I think
Speaker 5: that he was dominated by J. Deray, dominated all his
Speaker 5: life and also sexually abused by him. And consequently he
Speaker 5: was set to get back you know, one, his fortune
Speaker 5: that he lost when the British took over his father's castles.
Speaker 5: And two I think he realized when Jdray came back
Speaker 5: from the military. He really was. He was quite I think,
Speaker 5: mentally ill, and he was just going to take advantage
Speaker 5: of him in any way he could, which he did.
Speaker 5: In a way. I think he is the true villain
Speaker 5: of the story because he had such way over this man,
Speaker 5: you know, and instead of helping him in any way,
Speaker 5: I mean, I know at that time, and that's another
Speaker 5: story we'll get into about mental illness, but he definitely
Speaker 5: saw something that was someone that was weak. You know,
Speaker 5: like chickens do in a chicken coop, they know which
Speaker 5: one is down and they all pick on it. That's
Speaker 5: exactly what he did.
Speaker 6: Yeah, let's let's wait for the PTSD and that complex
Speaker 6: uh psychology, you know, psychiatric sort of analysis later, because
Speaker 6: as we're gonna as people are going to hear about
Speaker 6: this book and about the times, I mean, I can't
Speaker 6: see how everybody wasn't suffering from PTSD actually just living
Speaker 6: at this time.
Speaker 5: So that's why I know, I think they probably were
Speaker 5: in many ways, you know, brutal time.
Speaker 6: Tell us about the hundred tell us about the Hundred
Speaker 6: Years War just basically and what that really amounted to
Speaker 6: in terms of conditions in France, and talk a little
Speaker 6: bit about because This is very important too. The barbarity
Speaker 6: that the French saw from the English invading and fighting
Speaker 6: on French soil.
Speaker 5: Well, I think, you know, war hasn't changed that much unfortunately,
Speaker 5: but they definitely, I mean the British were out. What
Speaker 5: the one hundred Years War was fought for the crown
Speaker 5: of France, both the England and France. The King of
Speaker 5: England and the King of France claimed France. Now the
Speaker 5: kings of England where most of them were, you know,
Speaker 5: descendants of French, the French, so there was there's a
Speaker 5: history to it, or they married someone French who was
Speaker 5: you know, a nobility or more the nobility, even you know,
Speaker 5: a princess. So it went on for over one hundred years,
Speaker 5: different skirmishes. What the British would do is they would
Speaker 5: come over and they would do like horse charges where
Speaker 5: they would go through villages, burn the village is, kill
Speaker 5: the people, kill the animals, do whatever they could to
Speaker 5: frighten the public.
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Speaker 5: Look, they would, you know, if they caught someone, they
Speaker 5: would impale them on a stake. They roasted people alive.
Speaker 5: I mean, it just it will remind you very much
Speaker 5: of isis. It's a very similar primitive way of scaring
Speaker 5: people into submission. But what it did in France, besides
Speaker 5: those that were absolutely you know, just walking around having
Speaker 5: lost their minds, which I think that a lot of
Speaker 5: them probably did, was it brought resistance instead. You know,
Speaker 5: there was a great resistance to the English doing this.
Speaker 5: And I think in that way they just, you know,
Speaker 5: whether Joan of Arc became the savior, what issue really
Speaker 5: was the savior? These people truly believed they needed someone
Speaker 5: like that to to defend them from the English.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about Charles and you talk about his
Speaker 6: you know, grasp on sanity here. So talk about this Charles,
Speaker 6: and I won't try to pronounce his last name, and
Speaker 6: so you go ahead and do that and talk about
Speaker 6: his mental state and his.
Speaker 5: The King of France, Yes, yeah, there were many. There
Speaker 5: were the first the king and King Charles the sixth
Speaker 5: of France was beloved. He was apparently a lovely ruler.
Speaker 5: He was fair to the people. They adored him. What
Speaker 5: what happened was he went in sane and he had schizophrenia,
Speaker 5: and so there were periods when he was they just
Speaker 5: left him alone in the courtyard. No one would pay
Speaker 5: any attention to him except for his mistress, who took
Speaker 5: care of him. And he was beloved, but he couldn't
Speaker 5: do anything about the war because he really was insane
Speaker 5: for so much of the time. When at times his
Speaker 5: brother ruled France, and that was the Duke of Orleans,
Speaker 5: and that was when he was more sane, and when
Speaker 5: he wasn't assane, his nephew, the Duke of Burgundy, ruled,
Speaker 5: and these two men hated each other and they were
Speaker 5: brutal to each other. And Burgundy, when it's just, I mean,
Speaker 5: everything is so intriguing with this Burgundy found that the
Speaker 5: Duke of Orleans was the queen's lover, and so when
Speaker 5: he came out of her mansion one night, he had
Speaker 5: seventeen assailants knock him off his horse and chop him
Speaker 5: to death. And that's the kind of life that these
Speaker 5: people lived. So the king was really quite useless to
Speaker 5: do anything. And there was a brutal civil war that
Speaker 5: went on between Charles's nephew, the Duke of Burgundy, and
Speaker 5: Charles's brother, the Duke of Orleans, and it was brutal.
Speaker 5: It was just brutal. So he finally died, although he
Speaker 5: had a he had three sons, and two of them
Speaker 5: were in the custody of the Duke of Burgundy when
Speaker 5: he took over the reign of France, you know, temporarily,
Speaker 5: and they both mysteriously died in his with him when
Speaker 5: he was taking care of them. And he sent for
Speaker 5: the third son, and he was living down in Aragon
Speaker 5: with the family, and he had been married at fourteen,
Speaker 5: and they said he must come to court, and Aragon
Speaker 5: wouldn't give him up. They would not let him go
Speaker 5: book they knew what would happened to him. He would
Speaker 5: be murdered. He was a very weak person. He never knew.
Speaker 5: I mean, his mother, who was a Bavarian, played on
Speaker 5: whether he was legitimate or not. She apparently had notorious
Speaker 5: affairs with everybody that was a noble in France, and
Speaker 5: so she kept on saying, well, he's not legitimate. And
Speaker 5: it was Joan of Arc who came to the king,
Speaker 5: even though he at first you pretended who he wasn't
Speaker 5: the king or the dolphin, and she said, you are
Speaker 5: the legitimate ruler, and I will make you king.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about Let's go just back a little
Speaker 6: bit here, because we've got to make sure that people
Speaker 6: understand that Jill Derray becomes this decorated, awarded, recognized war hero,
Speaker 6: a knight, to spot these battles, and then with Charles
Speaker 6: in this really weak position France being besieged by English,
Speaker 6: by the English, losing his kingdom, and this seventeen year
Speaker 6: old peasant girl that's supposedly a virgin who says she
Speaker 6: has a vision. And at that meeting, I'll let you
Speaker 6: continue with what she actually says to Charles in the
Speaker 6: company of Jill Day, this hero, this professional knight, tell
Speaker 6: us about this actual what she said. What was Charles'
Speaker 6: reaction and what was Jill's Jill's reaction.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, Charles at first disguised himself so that
Speaker 5: so that Joan of Arc wouldn't know which one was
Speaker 5: the Dauphin of France. She knew immediately and she went
Speaker 5: to him where he was hiding between his courtiers, and
Speaker 5: she said, I will make you king of France. You
Speaker 5: are the legitimate ruler. You were the legitimate son of
Speaker 5: the king. And jild Guy was just blown over by her,
Speaker 5: blown over by her. He was blown over by her comments.
Speaker 5: The king was not quite as you know, he and
Speaker 5: his all his courtiers weren't sure what to make of her,
Speaker 5: and it took a while for him to finally decide,
Speaker 5: you know, he had to grasp but something, and he
Speaker 5: did finally grasp at her what she said, because he
Speaker 5: I don't think where else was he going to go,
Speaker 5: you know, he was really all his court was being
Speaker 5: were just waiting to be driven out of France by
Speaker 5: the English, so he was grasping its drawers when he
Speaker 5: went along with this. Although je Derai believed in her
Speaker 5: immediately and she did make him protect her of her
Speaker 5: on the battlefield, she saw something in Gill, you know,
Speaker 5: she saw something, and he remained valiant and loyal to
Speaker 5: her through his whole time with her on the battlefield,
Speaker 5: even though he'd been so.
Speaker 6: Yeah, sorry, it was really fascinating. Would you talk about that?
Speaker 6: Charles and others were, he was skeptical, and so they
Speaker 6: she had her examined to make sure that she was
Speaker 6: a virgin.
Speaker 5: Yes, and and.
Speaker 6: Also that she did have a little bit of a
Speaker 6: track record because she had predicted a defeat at the
Speaker 6: hands of the English previously and so and then someone
Speaker 6: had informed Charles about this, so she had this little
Speaker 6: bit of mojo going on before she walked in there
Speaker 6: and continue.
Speaker 5: So that's true, that is true. But they you know that,
Speaker 5: I think they just would have loved her to the court,
Speaker 5: would have loved her to fall on the feet, because
Speaker 5: you know, I mean, anyone that wasn't a noble was
Speaker 5: considered just one step above chattel. So they couldn't believe
Speaker 5: that the Dolphin of France was speaking to an first
Speaker 5: in a literate passage, who secondly was a woman. It
Speaker 5: was a girl, yeah, so yes, And the other thing,
Speaker 5: I mean, it is very funny because if you were
Speaker 5: if they found that she was not a virgin. Of
Speaker 5: course it would have been they would have killed her
Speaker 5: because they would have thought that she had had intercourse
Speaker 5: with the devil, because that's.
Speaker 6: What sure's always the thought.
Speaker 5: So was quite a time, quite a time, but it
Speaker 5: reminds me so much of our time today, unfortunately. But
Speaker 5: yet so finally, you know, Charov gave her a command
Speaker 5: of you know, his army, and that must have been
Speaker 5: quite something for the hardened soldiers. But she, i guess,
Speaker 5: was so devout and so really just you know, had
Speaker 5: just one idea that God was going to save France.
Speaker 5: That these people all rallied behind her. Finally and really,
Speaker 5: did you know, she really inspired the French.
Speaker 6: The thing is when she went to Charles and in
Speaker 6: the presence of Gilderay, she had said she had that
Speaker 6: she was speaking to the saints. So she prayed to
Speaker 6: the saints, Saint Catharine and Margaret, and she had had
Speaker 6: God's command to save his king, Shia his king, and
Speaker 6: so then yes, and so what it established as well
Speaker 6: as when she went to the army again, another fascinating
Speaker 6: part of your book is that these soldiers that have
Speaker 6: lived a life of basic debauchery, and these had rampant bestiality,
Speaker 6: and these guys were the epitome of pretty close to
Speaker 6: criminals that she inspired them to take confession and to
Speaker 6: repent for their sins. And the next thing, you know,
Speaker 6: she had this army of former thugs singing hymns and anthems.
Speaker 5: Yes, and and also then instead of the banner that
Speaker 5: they always held up, you know, when they went into battle,
Speaker 5: they then had her beautiful banner of Christ on the
Speaker 5: you know, and all the mendicant friars were carrying this
Speaker 5: instead of the soldiers. So it's just it's it's amazing,
Speaker 5: and you can understand how the English must have been
Speaker 5: frightened to death of her with something like that. How
Speaker 5: could someone get And a lot of the Catholic Church
Speaker 5: was too, because how does someone talk to, you know,
Speaker 5: the saints, And if she can talk so easily to them,
Speaker 5: then many of the priests and the Catholic Church would
Speaker 5: be redundant, they wouldn't be needed, so many of them
Speaker 5: took the side of the English that she should be
Speaker 5: burned as a witch.
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Speaker 6: true murder to start your free trial today. When we
Speaker 6: last left off, we were talking about Joan of arc
Speaker 6: some even the Catholic Church was worried about Joan of Arc.
Speaker 6: But Joan of Arc, with her protector, Jill d Ray
Speaker 6: and this new emboldened army, tell us what happens and
Speaker 6: how Joan of Arc becomes the legend that she has become.
Speaker 5: There is a siege of Orleans, which was you know,
Speaker 5: both the English and the French wanted. The French wanted
Speaker 5: to keep it. The English wanted to you know it
Speaker 5: because it would mean really that that was the end
Speaker 5: of the French, because it was so important. It's pivotal.
Speaker 5: And the siege had been going on for quite a
Speaker 5: while and all the nobles had left Orleans. The people
Speaker 5: that were there were starving to death. And Joan of
Speaker 5: Arc was able with her army to come into town
Speaker 5: because there was one gate that they could go over,
Speaker 5: which is the Burgundy Gate, which was the only gate
Speaker 5: left open that the French could get food through the
Speaker 5: Burgundy Gate. She came in with her troop and absolutely
Speaker 5: rallied the Oron people, and she was able after I
Speaker 5: think it was a week and many battles and we
Speaker 5: could either go into the battles or we don't have to,
Speaker 5: was able to turn the tide against the English, and
Speaker 5: they fought so well the French and destroyed impregnable castles
Speaker 5: that the English had that the English turned the next day,
Speaker 5: this is seven days later after the battle started and
Speaker 5: walked away left the siege. The siege was over. And
Speaker 5: they think it was all because of her, and all
Speaker 5: because of you know, the really the French put themselves
Speaker 5: instead of running from battle, which they had been doing,
Speaker 5: they absolutely defended Ordeon and all the places around Ordeon
Speaker 5: to their success. And from there, and this was when
Speaker 5: she was seventeen, so she won one of the biggest
Speaker 5: battles in the world at age seventeen, as had never been,
Speaker 5: you know, a commander of anything. And from there she
Speaker 5: went on with Dray at her side and some other
Speaker 5: very loyal comrades to take the whole Noir Valley which
Speaker 5: had been absolutely ridden with English. And from there she
Speaker 5: was able to have a pathway so that Charles could
Speaker 5: come up through the Noir and be crowned king at
Speaker 5: rens Ri I m s. And it was a very
Speaker 5: emotional ceremony. It lasted seven it lasted five hours. And
Speaker 5: the interesting thing was, you know, she wrapped herself around
Speaker 5: Charles's legs and said, I have accomplished what I wanted,
Speaker 5: and that was the last time her voices ever said
Speaker 5: you will accomplish what you were made to do. So
Speaker 5: that's quite interesting because she went on to try to
Speaker 5: capture Paris, and just you know, Charles is now Charles
Speaker 5: King Charles he had advisers who had sold out the
Speaker 5: town to the English and made sure that she couldn't
Speaker 5: capture Paris for one place, what is yeah, sorry, go ahead, no, no,
Speaker 5: what it's going to say with that was right after
Speaker 5: his coronation, Charles made Gidlay one of his marshals at France,
Speaker 5: so at age twenty four he was made in marshall
Speaker 5: of French, which today would be equivalent to a US general,
Speaker 5: a five star general in the US Army at age
Speaker 5: twenty four. So that was you know, I mean, that's extraordinary.
Speaker 5: He went on. He refused to go back to the
Speaker 5: Noire with Charles. He went on with Joan to Paris,
Speaker 5: where she did not win the offensive and she was
Speaker 5: wounded and she asked Jim to be with her, which
Speaker 5: he was, and as he was with her, there was
Speaker 5: word that the king insisted that he come back to
Speaker 5: his castle in other words, what happened was his advisors
Speaker 5: did not say he did. They didn't want you to
Speaker 5: go there because they were afraid. Between Joan and Jiu
Speaker 5: and the Parisians, who many of them hated, being you know,
Speaker 5: they were dominated by the English, probably Paris would fall
Speaker 5: to the French, and they did not want that to happen,
Speaker 5: so they made Juke go back to the castles with
Speaker 5: the king, and Joan of Arc soon after was at
Speaker 5: another siege in Campaigna, and she was taken prisoner by
Speaker 5: the English. And then she was finally brought to Rouen,
Speaker 5: which is again, you know, one of the very sad stories.
Speaker 5: She was kept in a horrible prison. She was not
Speaker 5: guarded by you know, women, She was guarded by drunk,
Speaker 5: drunken soldiers, and they had her in a cage most
Speaker 5: of the time because she was so dangerous. They felt
Speaker 5: that's how they kept their dangerous prisoners. And the trial
Speaker 5: went on for six months. She had no representation. She
Speaker 5: had to defend herself, and she did it I think
Speaker 5: quite well until I think they just wore her down.
Speaker 5: They just wore her down. So she confessed to you
Speaker 5: hearing voices and she thought if she would do that
Speaker 5: they would not burn her at the stake, which they
Speaker 5: kept on threatening to do. She thought she would be
Speaker 5: then put in a prison where there would be you know,
Speaker 5: nuns to guard her. They didn't. They took her back
Speaker 5: to the same prison. They took away her female attire,
Speaker 5: and she had no recourse but to put on this old,
Speaker 5: grungy male attire. And they accused her of being a
Speaker 5: transvestite for doing that, and that was a sin. And
Speaker 5: since she was a relapsed sinner, because she'd already confessed
Speaker 5: about her voices, gave the church the permission to, along
Speaker 5: with the English, have her burned at the stake.
Speaker 6: Now what was jille Day's reaction to all of this, Well.
Speaker 5: Of course he could. He and two other of her
Speaker 5: very loyal captains tried to attack Ruon and get rid
Speaker 5: of the English. They could not do. It was very
Speaker 5: heavily fortified. He even tried to rescue her in the castle,
Speaker 5: and that rescue was found out that he was going
Speaker 5: to do that, and the English threatened to throw her
Speaker 5: into the law in a bag if he even tried
Speaker 5: to rescue her, so she was burned at the stake.
Speaker 5: He was absolutely devastated, devastated, and he and these other
Speaker 5: two captains were able to make great headway after her
Speaker 5: death into Ruent. They still never captured Luon. And then
Speaker 5: he was brought by the king to do other battles,
Speaker 5: which is in the Marne, very near where the where
Speaker 5: the Second World War went on, and he was able
Speaker 5: to raise a siege there, which again made him another here,
Speaker 5: you know, he was he remained a hero, but his
Speaker 5: heart wasn't in the battle any longer. And then there
Speaker 5: was this huge, ferocious battle that went on and he
Speaker 5: sent his brother instead of himself to defend the French,
Speaker 5: and that's when the king dismissed him from from his
Speaker 5: position and from the army, and then it was downhill
Speaker 5: from then on. I mean the death of Joan of Arc.
Speaker 5: That he could not save her, that he had been
Speaker 5: so close to her, and there was I think some
Speaker 5: almost myscal tie between them because he had seen her,
Speaker 5: you know, pray for the wind for example in Orleon
Speaker 5: where the big battle went on to shift and he
Speaker 5: was just astounded as the winds shifted. You know, you
Speaker 5: have no idea, who knows what really happened, but there
Speaker 5: was some kind of mystical you know, the feeling of
Speaker 5: his ends. She had also sat in front of him
Speaker 5: that the person in Orleans, the commander of the English,
Speaker 5: would not die a bloody death. Well, in effect he didn't.
Speaker 5: He drowned in the Loire because the bridge where he
Speaker 5: was collapsed and he had on all his armor and
Speaker 5: he couldn't swim. And then the prophecy of course that
Speaker 5: the Dauphin would be made king, and it cemented Jill's
Speaker 5: feelings about Joan of Arc and I think the world
Speaker 5: just fell apart for him when his heroine, you know,
Speaker 5: who was supposedly God's you know, almost a handmaiden, was
Speaker 5: killed as she was, and I think he snapped. I
Speaker 5: think he just snapped. And whether it was you know, PTSD,
Speaker 5: whether it was some other mental illness, I think from
Speaker 5: there on he just became a totally different person. And
Speaker 5: his reaction to all of this just I mean, you know,
Speaker 5: I think he had flashbacks about her all the time.
Speaker 5: He also had this huge production five years after her
Speaker 5: death in Oron, you know, which was called the Siege
Speaker 5: of Ordinance, as he called it, and she was the
Speaker 5: heroine of this. I think it was really a eulogy
Speaker 5: to her. It was also to show that he had
Speaker 5: been such a brave warrior, and he spent all his
Speaker 5: fortune with this, with this production, it was free to
Speaker 5: everyone in France who could come to watch it and
Speaker 5: who wanted to eat and drink, and everyone came from
Speaker 5: all over the place to eat and drink, and he
Speaker 5: paid for it all. And here was this du Brickville,
Speaker 5: who I mentioned, the cousin who was so evil, just saying, oh,
Speaker 5: go ahead, do this, do this, do this, when it
Speaker 5: absolutely bankrupt him.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about him leaving the Joan of ar
Speaker 6: Ark was the handmaiden of God himself in this crusade
Speaker 6: to save France. And now after war and after time
Speaker 6: and after disappointment, you could talk about he snapped this
Speaker 6: is he explores his faith in the completely opposite direction
Speaker 6: one hundred and eighty degrees. So we talked about someone
Speaker 6: named Prelati, and so talk about his interest in some
Speaker 6: of these things by virtue of meeting a man named Prelatti.
Speaker 5: He was interested in black magic before he met Prilate.
Speaker 5: Who is this Italian who was apparently gorgeous, a young
Speaker 5: younger man than Deray at this point, and he was gorgeous,
Speaker 5: and he absolutely bemboozled Debray said yes, yes, we will
Speaker 5: get your money. You know, the devil will bring you gold,
Speaker 5: and so they became steamy lovers. He did everything that
Speaker 5: Pilate suggested, he do nothing seemed to bring on the devil,
Speaker 5: and Parloate keep on saying, well, that's because you know,
Speaker 5: you keep all these statuettes of the Virgin Mary and
Speaker 5: everybody else, and you have to get rid of those
Speaker 5: because otherwise the devil's not going to show himself to you.
Speaker 5: And so then the devil still didn't show himself, even
Speaker 5: though he got rid of some of these statues. So
Speaker 5: Prolate said, well, you know you have to kill. You
Speaker 5: have to kill. You have to kill five people, and
Speaker 5: they should be babies, and that will be to the devil.
Speaker 5: Will know that, you know, then you really believe in
Speaker 5: the devil. So unfortunately I did. He killed a little
Speaker 5: baby and he took the parts with Prilate to show
Speaker 5: it to the devil, and the devil still didn't show up.
Speaker 5: And I guess they both still being you know, there
Speaker 5: still had that Catholic religion had been ingrained in both
Speaker 5: of them, obviously, because everyone was ingrained that way in
Speaker 5: the Middle Ages, and they had such feelings of guilt
Speaker 5: that they did bury the body in sacred soil, and
Speaker 5: he never again, you know, sought the devil's help in
Speaker 5: that way with killing. But he always used that as
Speaker 5: a temporary thing. He never truly believed in the devil.
Speaker 5: I mean, he was really a very devout Catholic, but
Speaker 5: he felt that the devil was necessary to bring back
Speaker 5: his gold. I mean, he was that crazy that this
Speaker 5: is his way of thinking. And of course Prilate and
Speaker 5: to Brickville, you know, I mean they were going to
Speaker 5: go along with this because they were getting money from him,
Speaker 5: just beside him spending all this money. You know, they
Speaker 5: were going to just bleed him, you know, to death
Speaker 5: for money and no Alatti. Yeah, I'm not sure frankly,
Speaker 5: whether Prilate, as much as a scoundrel as he was,
Speaker 5: was involved in the murder of besides this one child.
Speaker 5: I think it was more to Brickville and another distant
Speaker 5: cousin who godd a day on to do all the
Speaker 5: mass murders of children. I think they were the ones.
Speaker 5: And whether Parlate was involved, that has never been known.
Speaker 5: I mean I never saw that in the trial. I
Speaker 5: never saw it in the trial transcript. He always, you know,
Speaker 5: he kept on saying. He even told the judges he
Speaker 5: could bring Frost the devil to them, and that really
Speaker 5: just doomed him for saying that. But there was never
Speaker 5: anyone who said he was there when these murders went
Speaker 5: on of the children, that you know, the torture and
Speaker 5: murder of children.
Speaker 6: But he didn't know.
Speaker 5: Go ahead, no, no, I'm just gonna say. He definitely
Speaker 5: was a steamy lover and I mean just adored this man,
Speaker 5: adored him. He bamboozled die and just you know, knew
Speaker 5: how to as they all how to manipulate him.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about Roger de Britville, and another person
Speaker 6: that moved in named Decil, and then a couple other women,
Speaker 6: Henriette and so tell us about the four people and
Speaker 6: what are some of the things that they were recruited
Speaker 6: to do, and then that they witness.
Speaker 5: Right, Dbrickville and Dacilly were distant cousins, and they were
Speaker 5: Dacilly he knew from the last battle that he was
Speaker 5: in he must have been a very brave warrior too.
Speaker 5: But he saw, you know, he realized that was not
Speaker 5: totally well, and he said, sure, I'm going to come
Speaker 5: live with you with your castle. Why not? So you
Speaker 5: have Debriefil and Decilly were the first who helps do
Speaker 5: all these murders. Then you have Henriette was actually that
Speaker 5: is not a female. He never did. He got rid
Speaker 5: of every female that was in his entourage and including
Speaker 5: his wife was know sent packing to another castle that
Speaker 5: she owned. These were two servants of his, Henriette and Coyote.
Speaker 5: They were two servants of his, and they I don't
Speaker 5: think they had all their wheels going forward. I think
Speaker 5: they were probably not half wits, but not full wits,
Speaker 5: if that makes sense to you. And so they just
Speaker 5: like a dog or like dogs, they adored their master.
Speaker 5: They would do anything for him. And so when he
Speaker 5: started to kill these children, you know, they just went
Speaker 5: along with it. They just they all witnessed these killings
Speaker 5: and no one did anything to stop them. And that
Speaker 5: to me is the most amazing thing. You know, most
Speaker 5: serial killers today it's all alone that they do these
Speaker 5: kind of dreadful, uh you know, murders. But this was
Speaker 5: group group what do you call it? Group depravity, which
Speaker 5: is on the pail in my opinion. And so you
Speaker 5: look at these, you look at the last two that
Speaker 5: you mentioned, Heliott and Corio, and I think they just
Speaker 5: they had They didn't know right from wrong. How you don't,
Speaker 5: I'm not sure, but I think they were just too craze,
Speaker 5: sort of not all there. They didn't know real right
Speaker 5: from wrong. The other two, the brick Fiel and d Silly,
Speaker 5: certainly did and they led on deray and I think
Speaker 5: they enjoyed the killing as much as he did, but
Speaker 5: they knew when to stop, they could pull themselves away
Speaker 5: from it. It became it became absolutely he had to kill.
Speaker 5: He needed to kill, which is so terrible, and no
Speaker 5: one stopped him.
Speaker 6: I don't know if I can give anybody any credit
Speaker 6: at all after some of this stuff, and I'll just
Speaker 6: read it because you didn't really talk about it. But
Speaker 6: he slipped their throats, dismembered, decapitated, sexually brutalized them. The
Speaker 6: groans and and suffering is what most excited him. He
Speaker 6: pulled out the eyes of one child, crushed his skull
Speaker 6: before he had an orgasm, smashed in another's chest, letting
Speaker 6: him bleed to that so he could wash his hands
Speaker 6: and beard in the child's body cavity. And sometimes the
Speaker 6: victims didn't exhibit enough pain to stimulate his libido. I
Speaker 6: know I'm talking about the trial, but still we've got
Speaker 6: to wait to establish exactly what we're talking about here.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know that's not very different from what you
Speaker 5: have enough serial killer. You know, you have talked to
Speaker 5: so many people about serial killers. That seems to be
Speaker 5: a pattern with serial killers. You know, they want more
Speaker 5: and more and they're not said, the more they kill,
Speaker 5: the more they need more stimulation. And that's I think
Speaker 5: what is seen with him the same way. You know,
Speaker 5: what first started to satisfy him was no by the
Speaker 5: end of his killings, I mean, just gruesome, ghastly gasoline.
Speaker 5: But you read you know, I mean there are like
Speaker 5: six traits of serial killers and that is one of them.
Speaker 5: And they do know right from wrong. So he knew
Speaker 5: right from wrong. And after one thing with with Dorey.
Speaker 5: And I think this goes back to his upbringing as
Speaker 5: a Catholic, you know, in a very devout Catholic after
Speaker 5: the murder of a child, you know, when he was
Speaker 5: not drunk anymore, because I think he did a lot
Speaker 5: of these when he had a lot of a drink
Speaker 5: in him, he would wake up and he would just
Speaker 5: have terrible guilt sillings. But of course then by the
Speaker 5: end of the day that would pass and he would
Speaker 5: do it all over again. You know, it's like a habit.
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, I think people that like to drink,
Speaker 5: you know, they can be fine until suddenly, you know,
Speaker 5: it comes back and they have to drink again. And
Speaker 5: it's the same thing. It's he was sick. He was very,
Speaker 5: very sick.
Speaker 6: You talk in the book about a macabre beauty contest
Speaker 6: with severed heads. Tell us just a little bit about
Speaker 6: that demonstrates.
Speaker 5: I mean, so you know, after the murder, he would
Speaker 5: have the heads, the ones that he liked the most,
Speaker 5: put on his mantlepiece, like you know, decoration, and then
Speaker 5: he would get into one of his very spotless, beautiful
Speaker 5: robes and he would have his henchmen decide which was
Speaker 5: the most beautiful, and he would take the head off
Speaker 5: the mantle and he would kiss the head and tell
Speaker 5: that the head to you know, go go pray to
Speaker 5: God for me. Was what he would say all the time.
Speaker 5: And it just I mean, you know, these children who
Speaker 5: must have gone through such suffering, who did look probably
Speaker 5: like little angels. They were probably fixed so that their
Speaker 5: faces were just beautiful again. And he always picked as
Speaker 5: his victims the most beautiful, the most beautiful child, you know,
Speaker 5: it would have done. The child that was very ugly
Speaker 5: would have done very well in those days, they wouldn't
Speaker 5: have been hit one of his victims. He loved beautiful children,
Speaker 5: and that again goes back to his probably loving everything
Speaker 5: that is beautiful, you know, with silks and tapestries to
Speaker 5: gold and everything, and the fact that that's the same thing. Yes, no, no,
Speaker 5: go on please.
Speaker 6: At the same time, what you talk about is that
Speaker 6: he had these beautiful boys that would come into the
Speaker 6: castle and I think sing for him. Yet he wouldn't
Speaker 6: kill those.
Speaker 5: He would be yeah, family. And this is the thing
Speaker 5: that are saying about serial killers. They usually kill those
Speaker 5: people that they have no relationship with. So the children
Speaker 5: that came in and were his lovely little you know,
Speaker 5: his choir. He loved these children. He lavished them with gifts,
Speaker 5: and they would have sex with him when he couldn't
Speaker 5: find anyone else. But he wouldn't kill them because they
Speaker 5: were his family, whereas these others urchins for the most part,
Speaker 5: you know, he had no relation with him, so they
Speaker 5: were chattel. They were like, you know, just your sheep,
Speaker 5: your goats, your chickens.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about this, you talk about them being chattel.
Speaker 6: What kind of numbers are we talking about? So that
Speaker 6: we can just demonstrate how prolific a killer he was
Speaker 6: and talk about how many years are we talking about
Speaker 6: this debauchery and debasement continued. What time frame were we
Speaker 6: talking about and what kind of numbers?
Speaker 5: About eight years? He left the military in fourteen thirty two.
Speaker 5: He was apprehended and tried in fourteen forty. So it
Speaker 5: went on for eight years. And in the trials, in
Speaker 5: this secular trial, they mentioned a certain number in the
Speaker 5: ecclesiastical in the Yeah, in the ecclesiastical trial, I think
Speaker 5: they say it could be three hundred, four hundred more.
Speaker 5: And the thought is it could have been up to
Speaker 5: one thousand, could have been up to a thousand children,
Speaker 5: So and yeah, go ahead, no, and and so there's
Speaker 5: no definite number. But you're not just talking about, you know,
Speaker 5: one hundred, two hundred and three hundred children. And they
Speaker 5: were mainly boys of course.
Speaker 6: Unfortunately, now very much like serial killers that we all
Speaker 6: know and are very aware of this, Jill and his
Speaker 6: his co conspirators and collaborators went after the poor, not after,
Speaker 6: the rich not after? And what were some of the ruses,
Speaker 6: and how could this have continued for so long? Tell
Speaker 6: us how this could have continued, and some of the
Speaker 6: ruses and some of the explanations for all these children
Speaker 6: that were gone.
Speaker 5: Well, when anyone would confront him because they could see
Speaker 5: that the child wasn't there anymore, if it was a
Speaker 5: family member, he would say, oh, well, you know they
Speaker 5: he's probably using them as his valet in some other town,
Speaker 5: you know, So they wouldn't obviously in those days, you
Speaker 5: couldn't travel to another town and you didn't have connections
Speaker 5: in another town to find out he would have. Even
Speaker 5: this woman, her name was really Bird of Prey. She
Speaker 5: would pray upon these children, just say, I'm taking you
Speaker 5: to this castle. You deserve your so lovely, you deserve
Speaker 5: a better life. Come with me, and this noble is
Speaker 5: going to give you a wonderful life. And so little urchins,
Speaker 5: would you know. She'd hold their hand and probably give
Speaker 5: them a candy or something, and they would go to
Speaker 5: his castle. He told he had his henchmen go into
Speaker 5: villages and they would stop someone with the family and
Speaker 5: they'd say, you know, your child deserves a better life,
Speaker 5: and we can give it to him. And then they
Speaker 5: would just take this child to Gendervet and he would
Speaker 5: perform his horrible acts upon them, and then they would
Speaker 5: murder him. And the families did not get that upset
Speaker 5: at first, because they truly believed, you know, they honestly
Speaker 5: believed that their child was living in the life of
Speaker 5: luxury and would be home to see them at some point,
Speaker 5: you know, would come home. But then it became overwhelming,
Speaker 5: and I guess there was still talk. Oh along the border,
Speaker 5: you know, people still did talk. I mean, you do
Speaker 5: get used from the next town and they would say,
Speaker 5: you know, twenty of our boys are missing. Well, did
Speaker 5: you know twenty of our boys are missing? You know?
Speaker 5: And I think this was beginning of the end for him,
Speaker 5: that people really began to realize whenever a child disappeared,
Speaker 5: either he was there or his henchmen were there, and
Speaker 5: it probably would have gone on forever, except he then
Speaker 5: very stupidly. It's a long complicated story, but one of
Speaker 5: his castles, he thought that the Duke of Brittany had bought,
Speaker 5: you know, and had gotten it at a really good price,
Speaker 5: and he was furious because he had sold it, you know,
Speaker 5: he thought to someone other than the Duke of Brittany.
Speaker 5: So he went into this castle and threw a tonsured
Speaker 5: priest into the dungeon along with one of the Duke's people,
Speaker 5: and that was enough for the Catholic Church to really
Speaker 5: start to investigate all about him what he had been doing.
Speaker 5: And they went to different villages and people would come
Speaker 5: forward and say, my child has disappeared. The last place
Speaker 5: he was seen is there was a henchman of Judea
Speaker 5: that was there, or he took him to the castle
Speaker 5: saying that he would be his valet. We've never seen
Speaker 5: him again. And there were hundreds of these people that
Speaker 5: came forward, so they were able to make a case
Speaker 5: against him, and they a lot of.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and there was poor people that had pleaded to
Speaker 6: a certain bishop as well that at that same time
Speaker 6: there was so many reports and that even the bishop
Speaker 6: that wasn't really concerned about these people being who they
Speaker 6: were yet until I had heard so many stories that
Speaker 6: it seemed to add up to something.
Speaker 5: It had added up. And then there was another bishop
Speaker 5: who thought nothing of it either until his own nephew
Speaker 5: disappeared from the castle where he'd gone to learn how
Speaker 5: to sing and he went to the high bishop, the
Speaker 5: Bishop of Nant, and told him this, and then they
Speaker 5: began to you know, really began to question the saying.
Speaker 5: And you know, of course, this man, you have to
Speaker 5: understand too, Jinda was the richest, even though he was
Speaker 5: losing all his land. You know, it was the richest
Speaker 5: baron in France. So of course to have a trial
Speaker 5: against him would be wonderful because then you know, the
Speaker 5: rest of the nobility could take over his properties. So's
Speaker 5: the combination of everything. And I mean, I think that
Speaker 5: the French were outraged. I think if he'd committed three
Speaker 5: or four murders, you wonder how many of them had
Speaker 5: done the same thing. To be honest, when you're committing
Speaker 5: three hundred, four hundred, five hundred, that's a different story.
Speaker 5: The French, even at that time, were civilized enough, even
Speaker 5: though there was such barbarity that went on that that
Speaker 5: isn't outrage. I mean it is an outrage to outrage
Speaker 5: against their civilization. And it made them weep, made France weep.
Speaker 6: Now, he went from castle to castle. He didn't confine
Speaker 6: this horror, and the chamber of horrors was these castles,
Speaker 6: and there was literally, as you described bodies. There was
Speaker 6: nowhere to hide all of these bodies and these corpses,
Speaker 6: these castles, and there was so many victims of so
Speaker 6: many people coming forward. So tell us about the actual
Speaker 6: prosecution of him, the investigation. Tell us more about the
Speaker 6: investigation of A. Gille Deray and his cohorts.
Speaker 5: Well, I think they, you know, as I was saying that,
Speaker 5: first of all, the Bishop of Nant took down all
Speaker 5: these you know, took down everybody's testimony. And not only
Speaker 5: did he do it, but the Duke of Brittany had
Speaker 5: his own inquiry into all the same wrongdoings, and they
Speaker 5: both came to the conclusion that there really was a
Speaker 5: case against this man. And so they brought him into
Speaker 5: Nant in handcuffs, which you know, absolutely startled everyone because
Speaker 5: they had him walk. They didn't let him on horseback.
Speaker 5: He walked for miles handcuffed. Here is the Marshal of France,
Speaker 5: the richest baron, Charles, the King of France's friend, Joan
Speaker 5: of ARC's protector, being handcuffed. So it's a wild trial
Speaker 5: that went on. The ecclesiastical trial took place and it
Speaker 5: lasted over thirty days. The secular trial lasted twenty four hours.
Speaker 5: And the reason being is that they used all the
Speaker 5: testimony the secular trial from the ecclesiastical trial because they'd
Speaker 5: had so many witnesses come forward and testify, and they
Speaker 5: used all that as evidence against him. And the secular
Speaker 5: trial was the more really serious trial because it was
Speaker 5: for murder. The secular trial the excuse me, the ecclesiastical
Speaker 5: trial was at that time it was not considered light.
Speaker 5: He was a heretic, you know, he sodomized children, he communed,
Speaker 5: he tried to commune with the devil, and all that was.
Speaker 5: You know, obviously he was found guilty of all of
Speaker 5: that as well, but he just, you know, he thought
Speaker 5: that he was going to be able to pay off
Speaker 5: the jurors as they were called, they were really the judges,
Speaker 5: and that he took this very lightly when he first
Speaker 5: was arrested, because they kept him in this beautiful chamber
Speaker 5: and he thought, you know, he'd probably be for heresy
Speaker 5: and he could pay them off for you know, doing
Speaker 5: heretical things. And then it wasn't until he got into
Speaker 5: the trial where he realized the judges had hoodwigged him
Speaker 5: because because of heresy, he couldn't have a lawyer. I
Speaker 5: think because of heresy, he couldn't have written statements, and
Speaker 5: he finally decided he was going to you know, just
Speaker 5: prolonged the trial and hoped that the King of France
Speaker 5: was going to disband it because he had been such
Speaker 5: a hero. Well, of course, the King of France wasn't
Speaker 5: going to do anything of the kind. And finally, when
Speaker 5: they threatened him with excommunication, which in those days was
Speaker 5: just almost a death sentence in itself, because if you
Speaker 5: were excommunicated, no one could talk to you, no one
Speaker 5: could do anything but you. You were literally an outlaw.
Speaker 5: He finally came back and confessed to all his crimes,
Speaker 5: and not only did he confess, but he embellrassed them.
Speaker 5: So he absolutely talked about everything that he could remember
Speaker 5: that he did. And there is whether it is true
Speaker 5: or not, it's I put it in there as in
Speaker 5: my book because I just thought it was so dramatic
Speaker 5: and it made sense that the Bishop of Nant, after
Speaker 5: j Deray confesses that and Christ on the Cross was
Speaker 5: behind them all the judges, he goes to the Christ
Speaker 5: on the Cross and covers him with a robe because
Speaker 5: he didn't want him to have to hear all this
Speaker 5: horrible testimony by jugra, which is just I mean incredible.
Speaker 6: It's interesting they have such a sophisticated legal system, but
Speaker 6: very interesting. How do we employ torture to really get
Speaker 6: in a confession. They really have this one up on
Speaker 6: these people and that they will torture you to get
Speaker 6: the confession. But in that torture it is very I
Speaker 6: guess as opposed to other torture that might net you
Speaker 6: negligible results. This torture gets the truth from these people.
Speaker 6: And even the pilate who who is determined at court,
Speaker 6: is not as involved as these other people. He has
Speaker 6: to make an appearance and has to answer in court
Speaker 6: as well as these other coolhorts that are tortured and
Speaker 6: then make full confessions.
Speaker 5: Right, And whether they were tortured or not, I don't
Speaker 5: think they were. I think honestly that the threat of
Speaker 5: torture threats, yeah, was so great to these people. I mean,
Speaker 5: can you imagine what they used, just even you know
Speaker 5: the strap pedal, We can just go into the everts
Speaker 5: and where they put your two hands behind you and
Speaker 5: then they strapped you up with a rope and started
Speaker 5: jiggling you until you've just lost all control. I mean,
Speaker 5: that is bad enough besides the rack, you know, pinions
Speaker 5: and everything else.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, I think it's very I mean, yeah,
Speaker 6: there was a threat and also what was important too
Speaker 6: despite his stature, and I think he found this. I
Speaker 6: think it sounds that he found this surprising too, that
Speaker 6: he was also threatened with torture as well, wasn't he Yes?
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, and he could not. I mean, you know,
Speaker 5: they knew enough, all of them about torture that they
Speaker 5: just didn't want to have to go through that. So
Speaker 5: better to confess and actually be hung than be tortured.
Speaker 6: Now he has, you talk about he had a different
Speaker 6: approach when he went to court, and first he defied
Speaker 6: the court. It was very interesting how he he tries
Speaker 6: to dismiss it and he's so arrogant and that no
Speaker 6: one has any authority. And then when he realizes the
Speaker 6: predicament he's in, he changes his tune. Now that he's
Speaker 6: in this trial and there's no hope, what is his
Speaker 6: sentiment then, how does he counter this? What is his strategy?
Speaker 5: I think his strategy totally and how clever was you know,
Speaker 5: as I say, he was crazy, but he wasn't crazy.
Speaker 5: He used remorse because that in the fifteenth century, if
Speaker 5: you could show total remorse for a crime people, really,
Speaker 5: you know, you were with God then. And I think
Speaker 5: he used such remorse. I mean, he cried, he you know,
Speaker 5: he said he just felt so badly for everything he
Speaker 5: did that the people truly believed him, and everybody got
Speaker 5: down on their knees after he confessed and prayed to
Speaker 5: God that his soul wouldn't be with God. So he he,
Speaker 5: you know, confessed so that the Duke would would favor him,
Speaker 5: Christ would favor him, the people would, you know, look
Speaker 5: upon him with you know that he was he really
Speaker 5: was going to be with God.
Speaker 6: At the same time, he knows that his fate is
Speaker 6: it's not something again, he's not he's not in a
Speaker 6: court where it isn't a foregone conclusion that he's going
Speaker 6: to be killed. So tell us he has a strategy
Speaker 6: to play on the sympathies of people, and you know,
Speaker 6: so that he goes out in terms of the way
Speaker 6: he believed he really was, which was a hero. Tell
Speaker 6: us about this a little bit more about the strategy
Speaker 6: and how does it work. Well.
Speaker 5: There two differences with the ecclesiastical you know, he wouldn't
Speaker 5: have been he would not have been hung, you know,
Speaker 5: with them finding him guilty, which they did, but with
Speaker 5: the secular he because it was murder, he would be
Speaker 5: hung or he would be whatever. And well we can
Speaker 5: talk about that because it's very interesting. He was not
Speaker 5: at his secular trial. They brought in a lawyer for
Speaker 5: him because this is a secular trial. This wasn't where
Speaker 5: he's being tried for heresy, so he could have a lawyer.
Speaker 5: And the man made an incredible, you know defense because
Speaker 5: he said he is not in control of his faculties.
Speaker 5: He cannot really you cannot judge him that there is
Speaker 5: the devil is working on him. But in those days,
Speaker 5: it was very interesting to read about this. You know
Speaker 5: that everyone looked at those who were insane, almost like
Speaker 5: it was the plague itself. And before there were asylums
Speaker 5: to take care of people who were insane, anyone who
Speaker 5: could afford it put their people on boats, and they
Speaker 5: were called ships of fools, and they sailed around the
Speaker 5: Mediterranean for years, and then they dump off these fools,
Speaker 5: as they called them, in towns where they weren't known,
Speaker 5: because then they let them just wander around the streets.
Speaker 5: So there was great prejudice against anyone who was called insane.
Speaker 5: So they didn't think Gendre was insane. They thought that
Speaker 5: the devil had you know, had touched him instead. And
Speaker 5: the only thing that I think was a foregrown conclusion,
Speaker 5: that the foregone conclusion that they were going to find
Speaker 5: him guilty. But what they deliberated, which is fascinating, was
Speaker 5: whether to decapitate him or to burn him or hang
Speaker 5: him you know where he was. And of course decapitation
Speaker 5: would have been very quick and it would have been over.
Speaker 5: So I think what they wanted to do was show
Speaker 5: that he really needed to be made an example of,
Speaker 5: and he had to be hung.
Speaker 6: Now he goes on to again ironically and almost ridiculously
Speaker 6: almost lecture children and a habit place for people coming
Speaker 6: up to avoid some of his pitfalls. So tell us
Speaker 6: a little bit about this.
Speaker 5: Yes, that's in his confession during the ecclesiastical trial, and
Speaker 5: he tells all of those who have children not to
Speaker 5: you know, not to pamper them, and not let them
Speaker 5: be brought up as he was, that he was just
Speaker 5: indulged in everything and he could do whatever. Don't let
Speaker 5: them eat nice sweets and keep them you know, dressed
Speaker 5: very simply, not like he was. And he goes on
Speaker 5: and on like that, and then he says that it
Speaker 5: was hippocrust, which was the drink of the princes and
Speaker 5: kings in the fifteenth century. It was a wine, and
Speaker 5: it was spiced with ginger and all sorts of other
Speaker 5: probably was delicious. And he said, you know that that's
Speaker 5: what kicked him, kept him in his state that he
Speaker 5: could kill as he did. And he said, you cannot
Speaker 5: let anyone drink that. Well, of course, I think he
Speaker 5: was just conforming to you know, what the court expected
Speaker 5: him to say nothing about, like he was on the
Speaker 5: you know, the the knight's knife's edge between sanity and insanity.
Speaker 5: But this is what caused him to do all this, which,
Speaker 5: of course it wasn't you know, he was insane. He
Speaker 5: was insane that he was very clever.
Speaker 6: After trial to his admission for why he did the
Speaker 6: things he did, he said was for his own carnal
Speaker 6: delights from a curse of the blackest of stars. And
Speaker 6: right from the very beginning you point out in the
Speaker 6: book that he really did think, because of his parents dying,
Speaker 6: that he was cursed, didn't he.
Speaker 5: But you know, all the Europeans in those days believed
Speaker 5: in the stars, and they, honestly farmers up to kings
Speaker 5: looked at the sky to see where their star was.
Speaker 5: And I think he just felt that he was born
Speaker 5: under a black star, a black planet that and that's
Speaker 5: what caused all his misfortune. And when he says in
Speaker 5: his out of court confession, he said that, you know
Speaker 5: he had no control, it was this black planet that
Speaker 5: controlled what he did. Well, you're talking about your inner psyche,
Speaker 5: you know when you say that. But that's what they
Speaker 5: all believed. They believed in this stars. I mean, I
Speaker 5: think in Shakespeare you see that a lot, isn't it
Speaker 5: where that comes out too, that they all believed that.
Speaker 6: Sure, what was the fate of his cohorts? And tell
Speaker 6: us about Jill Day's execution fourteen forty the two.
Speaker 5: As I call them, the ones that weren't all there,
Speaker 5: you know, his loyal servants, who were like dogs really
Speaker 5: to him. They were not totally I think equipped with
Speaker 5: a brain. They were found guilty as well, and they
Speaker 5: were all frought to be hung and burned. They both
Speaker 5: hung and burned at the same time. And they were hung,
Speaker 5: and he wanted to go first because he wanted them
Speaker 5: to see that it wasn't a ruse. You know, he
Speaker 5: wasn't going to say please, I'm the Lord. You know
Speaker 5: I can't be burned to death. That wasn't the case.
Speaker 5: He went. They hung him first, and then the other
Speaker 5: two were hung and burned. But he was taken out
Speaker 5: of the ashes because of his remorse, and he was
Speaker 5: placed in a cart and he was brought to a
Speaker 5: beautiful church, and his remains were there until the French
Speaker 5: Revolution with all the other sort of the nobility of Brittany.
Speaker 5: But the other two were just there there ashes were
Speaker 5: because they were called reprobates. They were thrown to the wind,
Speaker 5: but they have you know what plays all through this too,
Speaker 5: which is incredible with the book or the bells, because
Speaker 5: he's when he was christened. They're these beautiful bells in
Speaker 5: the church that are ringing. When he dies, they're these
Speaker 5: very doleful bells ringing, you know, the death of all
Speaker 5: these these people. So it's quite incredible. But back to
Speaker 5: the other two. Dussini disappeared and no one ever knows
Speaker 5: what happened to him. De Brickville was such a conniver.
Speaker 5: He went to work for Jilliereis was his daughter. At
Speaker 5: age twelve, they married to someone fifty years old, because
Speaker 5: there was still such property. They didn't want her land
Speaker 5: taken away. And he went to Dubritzville, went to work
Speaker 5: for this husband, and he so persuaded the husband that
Speaker 5: he was innocent, that he was able to get letters
Speaker 5: to the king, and he was pardoned. He said, because
Speaker 5: he was so young, it was all Gidegra's fault. And
Speaker 5: he made him go pick up all these people for him,
Speaker 5: and the king believed him. And so it's really, as
Speaker 5: I say, the sinister part of the whole book is
Speaker 5: that there is this Jidai who is just criminal. I mean,
Speaker 5: excuse me, the Brickville Roger de Buckfel that was able
Speaker 5: to get away with all of this, get away with it.
Speaker 6: Yeah. See, it was incredible to me as a reader
Speaker 6: of more current murder books written about or the trials,
Speaker 6: as the sophistication of the trial in the defense that
Speaker 6: he had at you call it a secular trial or
Speaker 6: civil trial, right, that defense of insanity at that time
Speaker 6: we're talking about six hundred years ago, that sophistication in
Speaker 6: that kind of defense. And then again in the defense
Speaker 6: like you say, he was a wily character that the
Speaker 6: Brickville could mount that oh, I was oppressed, I was dominated,
Speaker 6: I was bullied, and I was forced. So six hundred
Speaker 6: years later these defenses, I guess, are not so new.
Speaker 5: Yes, no, no, and not as clever as six hundred
Speaker 5: years later, are they?
Speaker 6: No, But just then and there are some major parallels.
Speaker 6: Like you had mentioned to you alluded to that that
Speaker 6: seemed to be that even though at six hundred years ago,
Speaker 6: that there are some parallels with what is happening now
Speaker 6: and what we seem to be moving towards. I would
Speaker 6: say in society.
Speaker 5: I think just the brutality that was shown in that
Speaker 5: era and what you see which is going on with
Speaker 5: ISIS now is so very similar. But with Deray and
Speaker 5: what he did, of course I think it was because
Speaker 5: he was mentally insane. I think Isis. On the other hand,
Speaker 5: their slaughter is simpler. They really they just you know,
Speaker 5: they're out to turn the world back almost to medieval times.
Speaker 5: And if you don't believe in what they're saying, you know,
Speaker 5: just like with the Catholic Church with the torture that
Speaker 5: they used with the inquisitions, you know, then we'll chop
Speaker 5: off your head and we'll torture you to do it.
Speaker 6: Well, the thing is it doesn't give credit to all
Speaker 6: the people though that were abused, sexually assaulted, raped again,
Speaker 6: brutalized that do not become brutalizers. Is very valid. But
Speaker 6: if one, one small, minute, minute amount of women who
Speaker 6: turned vengeful, we would have an epidemic of revenge and
Speaker 6: we would have a legacy of misery that would would
Speaker 6: rival what we have right now. So you know, again
Speaker 6: I see that there is an effect. But then again,
Speaker 6: somebody could say that about Isola as well, that they
Speaker 6: were raised in a war zone for their whole life
Speaker 6: and given a machine gun at ten years old. You
Speaker 6: know there has to be there has to be a
Speaker 6: little bit more. When he really did sit on the
Speaker 6: bellies of these little children, hundreds of them, and said again,
Speaker 6: like a psychopath. Again, you call the book a psychopath,
Speaker 6: call him a psychopath. He really laughed. And these other cohorts,
Speaker 6: of course, didn't do anything. They continued procuring victims for
Speaker 6: this madman. Again. But when you start practicing, you know,
Speaker 6: communing with the devil, and you want to conjure up
Speaker 6: Satan himself again, it's hard to justify what happens later
Speaker 6: as PTSD when you are practicing Satanism, and trying to
Speaker 6: evoke the devil and meanwhile doing what you're doing with
Speaker 6: children again like a party, like some bizarre horror evil party.
Speaker 5: No, I'm with you. I think it was more what
Speaker 5: the PTSD, if it was PTSD, if it was some
Speaker 5: other illness. What I think it did was it provoked
Speaker 5: his latent psychopathy. You know, from the time as a
Speaker 5: child he was, he had that problem. I mean, you
Speaker 5: see when he was left alone, you know, no one
Speaker 5: paid attention to him, and he had all those sort
Speaker 5: of feelings that I think were brought out. And no,
Speaker 5: it wouldn't be the PTSD, it be that the other
Speaker 5: you know, problems that he had that would have let
Speaker 5: him go on like that, and.
Speaker 6: How there certainly seems to be a mental break though
Speaker 6: you say he had a relationship but nothing untoward with
Speaker 6: Joan of Arc and he was this honorable soldier warrior. Again,
Speaker 6: he exhibited some things when he was a kid with
Speaker 6: his grandfather that was encouraging of that sort of thing.
Speaker 6: It didn't seem that unusual. But what he became and
Speaker 6: what he devolved into is is unbelievable. So there there
Speaker 6: seems to be a break after from war, and certainly
Speaker 6: I'm not going to diminish the effect PTSD of war itself.
Speaker 6: I'm not here to say that, you know, there definitely
Speaker 6: was something that triggered this incredible detour from where he
Speaker 6: was going in his life to where he ended up.
Speaker 5: Yes, no, and I think we all feel that, and
Speaker 5: no one can be sure. No, it's so many centuries
Speaker 5: for one, you know, you just can't be sure.
Speaker 4: So that's incredible.
Speaker 6: Well, this was must have been an go ahead.
Speaker 5: Now, I was just going to say. The extraordinary thing
Speaker 5: to which I think with this book is that the
Speaker 5: people you know, that they could forgive, that the parents
Speaker 5: of victims could honestly pray for his soul and fast,
Speaker 5: which was the custom of that time, for three days
Speaker 5: so that his soul would go to heaven, is just amazing.
Speaker 5: I mean, I think today you do not find I
Speaker 5: think you still do find some, but not as much
Speaker 5: as people you know, being able to forgive like that.
Speaker 6: It was masterful on his part, and I think that
Speaker 6: he really believed and felt it important that he had
Speaker 6: this legacy. Obviously it was in his best interest to
Speaker 6: believe that he, if he did, truly was sorry for
Speaker 6: his sin of murdering all these children that he would
Speaker 6: be forgiven by God. And it was testament to the
Speaker 6: power of the faith of these people that after hearing
Speaker 6: about their own children and their co their fellow poor,
Speaker 6: the slaughter, and the delight in reveling in the murders
Speaker 6: that he did, and yet, like you say, incredible transformation too,
Speaker 6: then forgive him. It was incredible, incredible story to be
Speaker 6: able to go from one emotion to ready to lynch
Speaker 6: this evil demon Frankenstein, to forgiveness.
Speaker 5: Yes, just incredible, I think. I mean, if nothing else,
Speaker 5: that to me is almost the most powerful part of
Speaker 5: the story. It's very hard at.
Speaker 6: It's quite strange as well too. Yes, I want to
Speaker 6: thank you for coming on and talking about Bluebird. A
Speaker 6: blue Beard pardon me, brave warrior, brutal psychopath. I knew
Speaker 6: I was going to do that, blue Beard. For those
Speaker 6: that we might like to know about anything else that
Speaker 6: you've written. And if you have a Facebook page, or
Speaker 6: if you are willing to be contacted by people, how
Speaker 6: might they do.
Speaker 5: That they can? I do have a Facebook page. It's
Speaker 5: probably the best to do it on the blue Beard page.
Speaker 5: I also my website is bluebearddebook dot com and my
Speaker 5: email address is there, and I'd love to hear from people.
Speaker 6: That would be great. I want to thank you again
Speaker 6: for coming on and talking about this incredible story contained
Speaker 6: blue Beard and again an incredible read. And thank you
Speaker 6: for this interview. Blue Beard, brave warrior, brutal psychopath.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much, Valerie, thank you, thank you so
Speaker 5: much for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 6: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Good night night. So
Speaker 6: now the program is over, and that means it's time
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Speaker 4: Good night