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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week,
Speaker 5: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zupansky, Good Evening. As a child,
Speaker 5: I was known as Jessica Pelly. When I was nine,
Speaker 5: I went to a sleepover at a friend's house for
Speaker 5: the weekend. While I was away, my entire family was murdered.
Speaker 5: I would spend the next thirty years fighting, crawl, and
Speaker 5: clywing my way through the darkness. This wasn't just a
Speaker 5: national news headline, a cold case, or a true crime show.
Speaker 5: It was my family and my life. I was the
Speaker 5: broken little girl left behind To tell this story, I
Speaker 5: am now Jesse in the pages of this unapologetic memoir
Speaker 5: set Free. The book that we're featuring this evening is
Speaker 5: I Am Jessica, A survivor's powerful story of healing and hope.
Speaker 5: With my special guest, Jesse Toroanjo and author Jamie Collins.
Speaker 5: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 5: a greened Iness interview. Jamie Collins, thank.
Speaker 2: You so much.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 5: Before we start, and not to get ahead of ourselves
Speaker 5: at all, because we're going to have we take this.
Speaker 5: We want to take this audience right back to nineteen
Speaker 5: eighty nine and well before that, to talk about your family. Jesse,
Speaker 5: tell us how you Jamie and Jesse are related, your
Speaker 5: cousin and so let's get that how you how are
Speaker 5: you related?
Speaker 2: We are well and.
Speaker 4: This is Jamie. We're cousins and my mom Marla is
Speaker 4: the sister of her dad Ed who they were siblings.
Speaker 5: Okay, great, now, Jesse, let's go back to when you
Speaker 5: were Jessica and talk about your dad Ed and your
Speaker 5: your mom Dawn. And take us back to before you
Speaker 5: got moved to Indiana. Tell us about the your family background.
Speaker 5: Take us way back.
Speaker 2: Well, we moved around a lot. I was born in Adrian, Michigan.
Speaker 2: And then my sister Jane I was born in Blosfield
Speaker 2: and my sister Jolie even we moved to Toledo, Ohio,
Speaker 2: and that's where she was born and that's where we
Speaker 2: lived until I was five. My dad had a lot
Speaker 2: of different jobs. I mean, I couldn't really tell you
Speaker 2: exactly what they were because I was so young, but
Speaker 2: I do remember I'm working on cars, hunting and fishing
Speaker 2: with him, stuff like that. So you know, I remember
Speaker 2: all that and I was happy at that point.
Speaker 5: Now, your sisters are very close in age, you said, Janelle,
Speaker 5: and pardon me, or their sister and tell us their
Speaker 5: ages in relation to yours.
Speaker 2: Well, my sister Jane was a year younger than me,
Speaker 2: just over a year, and then our sister Joline was
Speaker 2: three years younger than me.
Speaker 5: Right now, what happens to your dad? You don't know
Speaker 5: really the circumstances, But I mean, what happens to your
Speaker 5: father at a young age.
Speaker 2: He died of carbon monoxide. They said he was working
Speaker 2: on a truck, and I don't really know all the details.
Speaker 2: So you know, we went to church and came home
Speaker 2: and he was gone.
Speaker 5: Right, So where were you living at that time? And
Speaker 5: what happens with your mother? And how does she meet
Speaker 5: a man named Bob?
Speaker 2: We lived in Tuledo, Ohio at that point still, and
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure how she met Bob. I do
Speaker 2: believe it was through one of his cousins that lived
Speaker 2: in that vicinity. But I was so young, I didn't
Speaker 2: really get to see how they met or anything.
Speaker 5: Now you're you say, you're you're right at you're six
Speaker 5: years old when your mom has met Bob and they
Speaker 5: talk about moving to Florida. What's the reason for the
Speaker 5: move to Florida, And, as you write in the book, well,
Speaker 5: what were your feelings about Bob and the move and
Speaker 5: your dad dying? Tell us about all those feelings at
Speaker 5: that young age.
Speaker 2: Well, I was very angry, you know that I was
Speaker 2: gonna try to have to have new dad. I didn't
Speaker 2: want a new dad. I wanted my dad. Being six
Speaker 2: years old, you don't really have the comprehension, you know,
Speaker 2: about death or anything. So for me, it was just
Speaker 2: a whirlwind. You know, my dad was gone and then
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, this this new guy is here,
Speaker 2: and I'm supposed to look at him as my dad.
Speaker 2: So when we had to move to Florida because that's
Speaker 2: where Bob's house was, I'm not sure why we chose
Speaker 2: to go there, but that's where we went. So but yeah,
Speaker 2: I was very angry.
Speaker 5: And what was what was Bob's occupation took you to Florida.
Speaker 2: At that point, I don't really know. I'm not sure
Speaker 2: exactly what he did.
Speaker 5: Okay, now let's talk about the the move to Indiana.
Speaker 5: You were, you were in Florida, you're staying in Florida.
Speaker 5: But with that as well, Bob has children, So tell
Speaker 5: us about that meeting and what are their names and
Speaker 5: what was their ages in relation to you and.
Speaker 2: Your There was Jeff, who was his oldest and he's
Speaker 2: eight years older than me. And then there was Jackie
Speaker 2: and I think she's four years older than me. But
Speaker 2: you know, Jackie, I just you know, she was cordial.
Speaker 2: You know, we didn't really like hang out, hangout or anything.
Speaker 2: But Jeff didn't like me right off the bat. You know,
Speaker 2: he had just they had just lost their mom too,
Speaker 2: so you know, I think it was just a bunch
Speaker 2: of anger when we all had to get together. There
Speaker 2: were a couple of instances where you know, I was
Speaker 2: terrified he We went camping in the backyard, me, Jackie
Speaker 2: and then my two sisters, and you know, this guy
Speaker 2: came in the tent and pulled me out and you know,
Speaker 2: threatened to throw me in the pool that we had
Speaker 2: and then we went and said and I was, I
Speaker 2: was terrified, like I said, and you know, he put
Speaker 2: me on the counter and then took off the ski
Speaker 2: mask and it was jess Wow. So yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't know if he just thought he was being
Speaker 2: funny or if he was really trying to terrify me,
Speaker 2: but you know, I was, you know. And then another instance,
Speaker 2: I was in the tub and he pretended they're all
Speaker 2: blow dryer in there with me. So it was just
Speaker 2: stuff like that, where to me it wasn't normal prankster
Speaker 2: stuff it you know, I was very scared.
Speaker 5: Right now, Jamie, you're the related to Jesse. Again, without
Speaker 5: jumping ahead or giving anything away, what are you doing
Speaker 5: around this time? I mean, what is your age difference
Speaker 5: between Jesse and what is your what is your career path,
Speaker 5: what are you moving towards? What are you doing around
Speaker 5: at the same time in parallel with your cousin.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I am three years older than Jesse Jessica at
Speaker 4: the time, and at that point, I mean, we were
Speaker 4: both just young kids, and so my dad was in
Speaker 4: the military. He was a helicopter pilot. We lived in
Speaker 4: Germany for about seven years of my childhood. So Jessica
Speaker 4: and I knew one another, but we were kind of distant.
Speaker 4: We weren't around one another a lot, but we were
Speaker 4: cousins and we did obviously love one another. It was
Speaker 4: more of a distant relationship.
Speaker 5: Right now, Jesse, let's get back to talking about your
Speaker 5: friend as well. Her name is Stephanie, and the kinds
Speaker 5: of things that Stephanie. Again, Jamie, you do these interviews
Speaker 5: and get the take from these people many years later,
Speaker 5: but back at that time, Stephanie witnessed sort of the
Speaker 5: dynamic that was your new family. This new family would
Speaker 5: new siblings and a new dynamic. And as you've written
Speaker 5: in the book, Jamie, but Jesse, tell us about you, remember,
Speaker 5: and Stephanie got to witness in terms of Jeff's acceptance
Speaker 5: of your mother and you accepting Bob as your father,
Speaker 5: sort of the dynamic that you present in the book.
Speaker 5: What was that that family dynamic at that time.
Speaker 2: Well, Bob was a disciplinarian, so you know, I got spankings,
Speaker 2: stuff like that. We couldn't talk in church because he
Speaker 2: was a pastor. You know, we just had to present
Speaker 2: ourselves in a certain way, and if we didn't, you know,
Speaker 2: got in trouble. Jeff and my mom did not get
Speaker 2: along at all. So yeah, other than that, I mean,
Speaker 2: it just wasn't like the happy little family that it
Speaker 2: could have been.
Speaker 5: Throughout this book, Jamie, you picked a certain way of
Speaker 5: telling this incredible story, and as you write there, it's
Speaker 5: many many years later that you create you connect and
Speaker 5: become close as cousins and eventually very very close friends
Speaker 5: and beyond. Tell us about the construction of the book
Speaker 5: in terms of how you interestingly and very effectively laid
Speaker 5: this out, in terms of introducing characters that are important
Speaker 5: much later on to tell their story of that time
Speaker 5: in nineteen eighty nine. In fact, we have to mention
Speaker 5: too that this is a very important date, April twenty eighth,
Speaker 5: as the book is released tomorrow officially April twenty ninth,
Speaker 5: and that is we are going to be talking about
Speaker 5: April twenty ninth, nineteen eighty nine for quite a bit
Speaker 5: of this interview. So tell us a little bit about
Speaker 5: that the layout of this very very effective but very
Speaker 5: interesting way to tell this incredible story.
Speaker 4: Sure well, I don't know that initially that I set
Speaker 4: out necessarily to do what we ended up doing with
Speaker 4: the book, But I would interview jesse and the other
Speaker 4: people that appear in the book oh by phone extensively,
Speaker 4: and as they would tell me their stories, I would
Speaker 4: just kind of start writing the pieces of it. And
Speaker 4: it was really interesting to me that, you know, we
Speaker 4: started this twenty seven twenty seven years after this, that
Speaker 4: the exact people that would be able to help us
Speaker 4: paint the story the way that we did would be
Speaker 4: the ones in her life. So her best friend Stephanie
Speaker 4: was in her life and was willing to talk to us,
Speaker 4: her mom, her best friend Mona was in her life
Speaker 4: and willing to help us with this. And so, for instance,
Speaker 4: at the time that I interviewed Stephanie, I did not
Speaker 4: realize that she was such a key part of learning
Speaker 4: about what happens on April twenty ninth. So I just
Speaker 4: really wanted to show each person as what they saw,
Speaker 4: what they felt, what they thought, and to really kind
Speaker 4: of immerse people into the experience of what this was
Speaker 4: for these people back then.
Speaker 5: Right now in this book. And I guess you could
Speaker 5: answer this to Jamie, is that there's something in Jessica's
Speaker 5: life involving the grandmother. About three weeks before this Faithful
Speaker 5: Day of April twenty, nineteen eighty nine, Jesse's Jessica's mother
Speaker 5: Don travels to Michigan to visit former mother in law Gail,
Speaker 5: and in that there's some telling conversations what is said
Speaker 5: to Gail and what is convert what is expressed in
Speaker 5: that conversation that visit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm going to tell you what I was told
Speaker 4: through Mona because she's who I interviewed for that portion
Speaker 4: of the book, her mom's best friend. But basically Mona
Speaker 4: and Gail had met with Jessica's mom Don, and she
Speaker 4: had kind of alluded to having some I guess marital difficulties,
Speaker 4: just trouble with the blended family, that everybody wasn't getting along,
Speaker 4: and I think Jeff and Jessica were kind of at
Speaker 4: the forefront of that they each had lost a parent
Speaker 4: was still very angry, kind of rebellious about it. But
Speaker 4: ultimately Don would kind of share that she didn't necessarily
Speaker 4: feel safe with Jeff in the house. And I don't
Speaker 4: know that she felt personally threatened or that her family
Speaker 4: was threatened, but I think she feared that Jeff could
Speaker 4: possibly do something to harm himself, that that's where she
Speaker 4: felt he was at that time, So there was talk
Speaker 4: of there being a gun in the house. There was
Speaker 4: talk about Don having concerns about everyone not getting along,
Speaker 4: but that's about all that they know at that time.
Speaker 4: So to Gail and Mona, I think it was just
Speaker 4: kind of a normal conversation you would have, like everybody
Speaker 4: has troubles. Blended families aren't easy, and that at the
Speaker 4: time is what they took it for.
Speaker 5: Right now, Jesse, as you write in the book, you
Speaker 5: take the reader and now our audience to April twenty eighth,
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty nine. It's a Friday, and what are the
Speaker 5: plans that you have for this weekend that also include
Speaker 5: your sister? Why is this weekend important and special to you?
Speaker 5: Tell us about what are the plans and what happens
Speaker 5: on April twenty eighth, nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 2: Actually it was the twenty seventh. I was supposed to
Speaker 2: go to a friend's house with my sister for the
Speaker 2: whole weekend. And I had walked in my mom's room
Speaker 2: where she was she was in the bathroom, and you know,
Speaker 2: to tell her goodbye, and she informed me that my
Speaker 2: sister was not going. So I tried to argue with
Speaker 2: her and she just gave me the look and I
Speaker 2: just kind of backed off. So I went to my
Speaker 2: friend's house out my sister, and.
Speaker 5: You weren't you weren't You weren't pleased about this, but
Speaker 5: you went to have now this friend. It's very interesting
Speaker 5: too that later we'll we'll see the relevance of this
Speaker 5: for this book. You could not remember that young girl's name?
Speaker 5: Is that correct? No?
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, I couldn't remember anything about her.
Speaker 5: Wow, very interesting. Now what about that? You do remember
Speaker 5: something about that night at your friend's house? Was it peaceful?
Speaker 5: Was it a good night? Wasn't a fun night for you?
Speaker 2: I mean, I obviously don't remember. I don't remember any
Speaker 2: of that. I wish I could, but it's my mind
Speaker 2: blocked out for some reason. So but Sunday, you know,
Speaker 2: my friend's mom came to drop me off at home,
Speaker 2: and you know, we pulled in and there was crime
Speaker 2: scene tape around the house and all the church people outside.
Speaker 2: Police officers were everywhere. So I thought maybe my dog
Speaker 2: had died or something happened to him, and I, uh,
Speaker 2: the police officer came to my friend's mom's window and
Speaker 2: had her get out, and I saw that she had
Speaker 2: just started crying, and you know, I knew something something
Speaker 2: had happened, but wasn't sure. What you know, in a
Speaker 2: nine year old mind, you don't. You can't think of
Speaker 2: the most extreme thing happening. So I uh, she came
Speaker 2: around and opened my door and told me that my
Speaker 2: whole family was gone. So it was I. I just cried,
Speaker 2: cried and cried. I couldn't even comprehend what that all
Speaker 2: actually meant.
Speaker 5: Now, Jamie, just to pick up this, there was talk
Speaker 5: that Jeff was going to a prom that night, and
Speaker 5: I don't know if we're maybe we're maybe we'll just
Speaker 5: leave that in terms for it for this audience to discover.
Speaker 5: H But Jamie, tell us what the police find at
Speaker 5: that crime scene.
Speaker 4: The police fined the body of Bob Pelly in the
Speaker 4: hallway with two shotgun wounds, one to the chest and
Speaker 4: one right beneath the chin and neck area. They would
Speaker 4: find Jesse's mom and two sisters in the basement to
Speaker 4: kind of huddled in a circle formation, all shot point
Speaker 4: blank range with a shotgun. Interestingly, the entire house was
Speaker 4: locked up, curtains and blinds were drawn. Nothing appeared to
Speaker 4: be stolen, and so for that reason. It seems the
Speaker 4: detective spewed it to be an inside job based on
Speaker 4: the crime scene, and then later some things would happen,
Speaker 4: and based on behaviors and actions, it would point them
Speaker 4: in a certain direction.
Speaker 5: You right, Jamie, that there's an interesting set of circumstances
Speaker 5: that occur, and terming with a forensic pathologist, I believe
Speaker 5: at least it's in the neighborhood. And the very interesting
Speaker 5: and very important issue that happens. The time of death
Speaker 5: is not determined at that time. There's not, as you write,
Speaker 5: they not the proper test to determine that. Again, which
Speaker 5: obviously our audience would be aware that that would be problematic.
Speaker 5: Later tell us a little bit more about what they
Speaker 5: see at this cream crime scene or don't see the robbery.
Speaker 5: These talk about an inside job, So what do you
Speaker 5: police know immediately in relation to that inside job? Who
Speaker 5: is the suspect?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so they do suspect fairly early on. It to
Speaker 4: be her stepbrother, who was seventeen years old at the time.
Speaker 4: The last doubt that he was seen wearing while the
Speaker 4: family was alive was in the washer, spun clinging to
Speaker 4: the drum, and it was jeans and a shirt and
Speaker 4: two pairs of socks. That was the only thing in there.
Speaker 4: So for a family with that many people, it's just
Speaker 4: a very unusual load of laundry to be in there.
Speaker 4: He would ultimately show up to meet his girlfriend and
Speaker 4: friends late to go out to dinner, and he would
Speaker 4: be carrying his tucks when he arrived, which was unusual.
Speaker 4: You would assume that his dad and Don would have
Speaker 4: taken pictures of him going to the prom. That obviously
Speaker 4: didn't occur. And I think mostly it's Jeff's own words, behaviors,
Speaker 4: and actions that really lend themselves to putting the spotlight
Speaker 4: on him initially, and as the case moves forward.
Speaker 5: We'll get back to that behavior and also the issue
Speaker 5: of behavior surrounding his prized Mustang vehicle. At the same time, Jesse,
Speaker 5: what are you told about other than that initial that
Speaker 5: your family has gone. What are you told in real
Speaker 5: terms about suspects or investigation or anything in relation to that.
Speaker 5: What are you told at that time? What do you know?
Speaker 2: I'm I knew nothing at that time. It was a
Speaker 2: hush hush thing, you know, couldn't really talk about it.
Speaker 2: Everybody from that point of my life was cut off
Speaker 2: from me, So I really knew nothing besides what I
Speaker 2: had kind of conjured up in my own head.
Speaker 5: And what was that.
Speaker 2: Well, I thought that my stepdad had killed my mom
Speaker 2: and sisters and then killed himself.
Speaker 5: Now with that conclusion and then coupled with again this
Speaker 5: upheaval in your life, to say the least, and this
Speaker 5: you already had the anger towards Bob and some anger
Speaker 5: towards your mother from uprooting you. Who do you go
Speaker 5: live with and what's your behavior? Like?
Speaker 2: I lived with a bunch of different people, But I
Speaker 2: initially went to my mom's dad's house, my grandfather. I
Speaker 2: was only there a short while when they said I
Speaker 2: should probably go live with my aunt, who had three
Speaker 2: small children. They thought maybe that would help me. So
Speaker 2: I went there. I just acted out. I didn't know
Speaker 2: how to deal with my feelings. I used to cut
Speaker 2: just to get the internal feelings not gone, but to
Speaker 2: where I wouldn't have to feel so stuff like that,
Speaker 2: I just, you know, very rebellious, and I just didn't
Speaker 2: know what to do. And I was, you know, no
Speaker 2: one could help me at that point.
Speaker 5: Right now, Jamie, you take us in the book to
Speaker 5: at the beginning of the book, a very profound visual scene.
Speaker 5: Friend Stephanie, mutual friend Stephanie, Jessica and yourself are at
Speaker 5: this incredible funeral. Jamie tell us about that funeral.
Speaker 4: It's a really hard thing to put into words, and
Speaker 4: I had a hard time writing that chapter to get
Speaker 4: it to truly be what it was for us. But
Speaker 4: you have to realize that we were three young girls
Speaker 4: and this was by no means a normal funeral of
Speaker 4: any kind. And for you to kind of understand it,
Speaker 4: you have to realize that we were at a funeral
Speaker 4: in the church where Bob Pelly used to minister, and
Speaker 4: there were four caskets at the front of that for him,
Speaker 4: his wife in the two little girls, ages six and eight.
Speaker 4: And this was the type of a room where, you know,
Speaker 4: usually grown ups to hold it together, especially if they're
Speaker 4: around kids, or to not cry, and this was so
Speaker 4: deep with grief and hurting. People were literally crying and
Speaker 4: audibly sobbing and wailing into the air. And it's what
Speaker 4: I remember the most is the church hymns because they
Speaker 4: just seemed so off compared to where we were sitting,
Speaker 4: so hearing them sing like the song Amazing Grace scarred
Speaker 4: me for life. I learned to hate that song from
Speaker 4: that experience, So it was just even the detectives were
Speaker 4: completely shaken. You can tell from things that were written
Speaker 4: later that no family should have to sit and sing
Speaker 4: Amazing Grace the way that we did, so it was horrible.
Speaker 5: Right now, back to this investigation. You talk about the police,
Speaker 5: it's an inside job. There's no robbery motive. The police
Speaker 5: find out what about the arrangement with as you said, Jesse,
Speaker 5: the disciplinarian Bob, your stepdad, what is the arrangement with
Speaker 5: his son, the prom and the mustang?
Speaker 2: He was not allowed to drive the mustang. His dad
Speaker 2: was going to take him to bron and then bring
Speaker 2: him back home. He wasn't supposed to attend the after
Speaker 2: activities or.
Speaker 4: Anything like that.
Speaker 5: You're right also that the father ensured that he wouldn't
Speaker 5: be taking this mustang by disabling it physically and also
Speaker 5: canceling the insurance for six months, so he was not
Speaker 5: going to relent for this. Right now, what do the
Speaker 5: police also find out in this investigation in terms of
Speaker 5: again with motive? Jeff had said to other students regarding
Speaker 5: the mustang and his appearance at the prom.
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Speaker 4: week prior to the prom that he had a two
Speaker 4: day pass from Pelley Prison I believe was his exact wording,
Speaker 4: but that he would be able to drive to the prom,
Speaker 4: but not to say anything about it. So that obviously
Speaker 4: what a lot of speculation upon just that statement to friends,
Speaker 4: and he did in fact drive the Mustang, which was
Speaker 4: not ensured, not only to the prom but also to
Speaker 4: Great America the following day.
Speaker 5: And Great America is is what for audience is that it's.
Speaker 4: An amusement park.
Speaker 5: Now with this, you would think again, many people would
Speaker 5: read this, maybe listen to this and go, well, when
Speaker 5: are they going to make this arrest? What happens with
Speaker 5: this investigation? When's the arrest? What is there arrest? Why
Speaker 5: isn't there a Yeah?
Speaker 4: So interestingly, I was twelve years old at the time
Speaker 4: that this occurred, and I was the eldest grandchild, and
Speaker 4: so they told me a lot of adult things. So
Speaker 4: I knew early on that they had suspected Jeff. That
Speaker 4: we were told that it was strictly a circumstantial case,
Speaker 4: and they had quite a bit of evidence that pointed
Speaker 4: to Jeff that they really wanted the murder weapon because
Speaker 4: back in nineteen eighty nine, I mean, you don't have
Speaker 4: DNA evidence and all of that. Really they didn't do
Speaker 4: the time of death testing, which kind of cut both
Speaker 4: ways depending which side of the family you were on.
Speaker 4: So they really wanted the murder weapon to bring the case.
Speaker 4: So ultimately the case goes cold for thirteen years, so
Speaker 4: it's completely cold and there's no justice or closure.
Speaker 5: Now back to you, Jesse, of course, this is you know,
Speaker 5: the mythical or the supposed recovery that you were supposed
Speaker 5: to have. What's happening in your life? And when what
Speaker 5: year do you reconnect and give us the circumstances that
Speaker 5: you reconnect with your step brother Jeff. Again, what do
Speaker 5: you know at that time? Tell us about that the
Speaker 5: circumstances are reconnecting. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2: Well, at that time, I still thought it was my
Speaker 2: stepdad and I was living in a foster home with
Speaker 2: my foster mom at the time, and he called me
Speaker 2: and said, you know, do you want to come visit
Speaker 2: in Florida? And I was like, okay, think anything of it.
Speaker 2: So I went down there, and you know, he asked me,
Speaker 2: who do you think did it and I was like,
Speaker 2: your dad. So, you know the time there, you know,
Speaker 2: we spent time together, but then after, you know, we
Speaker 2: kind of lost touch and never really never really saw
Speaker 2: him again. So, you know, I think at that point
Speaker 2: me thinking it was his dad was a good thing
Speaker 2: at that time.
Speaker 5: When he asked you, you as writ in the book,
Speaker 5: it as soon as you get there for this, you know,
Speaker 5: this reunion. He asked you, so, hey, who do you think?
Speaker 5: Who do you think did this? And you respond, well,
Speaker 5: I think it was your dad. And he doesn't say
Speaker 5: anything anymore, does he?
Speaker 2: No, No, it was just kind of dropped and I
Speaker 2: didn't think anything of it. You know, you probably did
Speaker 2: want to know. In my mind too, I thought it
Speaker 2: did it so and I, you know, like I said,
Speaker 2: nobody told me they's suspicion. So he wasn't even on
Speaker 2: my raider at that point.
Speaker 5: Incredible. Tell us Jesse about the day that you get
Speaker 5: a knock on your door. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was twenty three and detective knocked on my door,
Speaker 2: and you know, I asked if they could come in,
Speaker 2: and they had news about the case, and I was
Speaker 2: like okay, so I let him in, and you know,
Speaker 2: they asked me, you know, who do you think did it?
Speaker 2: And I said, well, my stepdad, and they looked at
Speaker 2: me and they said, there's no possible way it was him.
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, you know, so they told
Speaker 2: me he was shot twice. There's no way you can't
Speaker 2: do a murder suicide and shoot yourself twice. So then
Speaker 2: my mind was reeling, like it was. I didn't even
Speaker 2: know what to think at that point. And then they're like, well,
Speaker 2: you know, there could there be anybody else? And I said, well,
Speaker 2: you know, just that's who came to my mind right away. Yeah,
Speaker 2: just because of his behaviors. You know, he was quick
Speaker 2: to violence. You know, I remember being on a school
Speaker 2: bus and you know, he just walked up and punched
Speaker 2: a kid in the face. You know, most people don't
Speaker 2: just do that right off the bat.
Speaker 5: You know, right now, with this revelation, tell us Jamie,
Speaker 5: when you and Jesse are reconnect and on those circumstances.
Speaker 4: It was probably about five or six years ago and
Speaker 4: I came across her profile on Facebook. I think we
Speaker 4: might have had a family member in common, and pop
Speaker 4: was this lady with hot pink care and her name
Speaker 4: and I immediately know that it's Jessy, and it was
Speaker 4: this really cool feeling because it's like, Wow, she made
Speaker 4: it is what you think, And I don't know what
Speaker 4: her life looked like, or what had happened to her
Speaker 4: or where she lived.
Speaker 5: That it was.
Speaker 4: We basically started talking on Facebook Messenger a little bit,
Speaker 4: but I kind of kept my distance because I think,
Speaker 4: you know, socially, it's awkward when you have something like
Speaker 4: this in between you and someone else, even if it's
Speaker 4: just a normal death, Like if you knew a lady
Speaker 4: lost her husband, do you mention the husband?
Speaker 5: Do you not?
Speaker 4: And so it was that type of a situation. And
Speaker 4: at one point I had read another true crime book
Speaker 4: written about this, and I was just like, I don't
Speaker 4: care how she takes it. I just have to send
Speaker 4: her an email and tell her that I acknowledge what
Speaker 4: happened to her and I don't know what her whole
Speaker 4: life looks like, but that I wanted to be there
Speaker 4: for her and be not just her cousin but a friend.
Speaker 5: And in that you are the first person that she
Speaker 5: divulges that she shares in six months, you say of
Speaker 5: talking her story for the very first time, unburdened, given
Speaker 5: to someone else, shared with someone else. It's it's the
Speaker 5: first person Jesse that you share this week, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yes? I mean other people knew, you know, details of it,
Speaker 2: but I never really got deep down to what it
Speaker 2: was really like for me.
Speaker 4: Well, And I think the interesting part of it is
Speaker 4: if we had just if I was just like, tell
Speaker 4: me about your life randomly, she would have stopped at
Speaker 4: the points where she would stop telling normal people. But
Speaker 4: because we decided to do this together, there were no
Speaker 4: boundaries between us. Nothing was off limits, So I didn't
Speaker 4: have to stop at the socially appropriate lines. I could
Speaker 4: be like, no, tell me what it really was like,
Speaker 4: what really happened? How did you really feel? And normally
Speaker 4: you wouldn't be able to do that. So I think
Speaker 4: that's what really gave us the depths that I think
Speaker 4: that this book has, and kind of the raw quality.
Speaker 5: Tell us the genesis of this book idea. Didn't that
Speaker 5: wasn't your initial purpose when you contacted Jesse, and and
Speaker 5: of course wasn't Jesse's purpose when she reconnected with you?
Speaker 5: So tell us the genesis this book idea project. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So, as I said, I had sent her that email
Speaker 4: and she took it really well I think she always
Speaker 4: wanted someone to kind of come back and claim her
Speaker 4: and acknowledge her, and so it was good I had
Speaker 4: sent it. And we spent probably like two years just
Speaker 4: getting to know one another. We'd talk on the phone,
Speaker 4: message back and forth, we watched television shows together, and
Speaker 4: at one point I think we were just so comfortable
Speaker 4: with one another. I was like, you know, if you
Speaker 4: ever wanted to tell your story, you would have one
Speaker 4: heck of a story to tell. But you have to
Speaker 4: realize at that point, I don't even know where her
Speaker 4: story really is. And she's like, yeah, I know, but
Speaker 4: I don't think I could talk to a stranger about
Speaker 4: my life. And I was like, well, could you talk
Speaker 4: to me? And she said that she thought that she could,
Speaker 4: and I was you have to realize that I've never
Speaker 4: written a book before. I had in no way thought
Speaker 4: of doing this with her or for her, and so
Speaker 4: it was just kind of the spontaneous, organic thing that happens.
Speaker 4: And we get off the phone that night, and probably
Speaker 4: five minutes later, she texts me and says, let's do it.
Speaker 4: So first I'm really excited, but then there's like this
Speaker 4: snee jerk reaction behind it of holy crap, Like, I
Speaker 4: don't even know if I can do this. I don't
Speaker 4: know if I can write a book. So I had
Speaker 4: told her, just let me try to write one chapter,
Speaker 4: and if I can write the one chapter, then I'll
Speaker 4: know that I can do this. And I wrote the
Speaker 4: next chapter at lunch during my day at the law firm,
Speaker 4: and the rest is kind of history. We just did it.
Speaker 5: Let's go to Jesse. Interestingly, as this is all happening
Speaker 5: or roundabouts this time. As we mentioned before, people like Mona,
Speaker 5: your friends, Stepny, important people come to the forefront, reconnect
Speaker 5: with you via email, and then ye further, he'll tell
Speaker 5: us a little bit about how interesting that is that,
Speaker 5: like Jamie had mentioned, all the important people that could
Speaker 5: tell this story most effectively come back in your life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I call her my sister, Stephanie. When she reached
Speaker 2: out to me, I didn't remember her, so, but I
Speaker 2: was touched that someone who knew me before wanted to
Speaker 2: actually get to know me and wanted to see me.
Speaker 2: So I cried and I told her, I said, I
Speaker 2: don't remember you, but you know we can talk. So
Speaker 2: it was just right after that point I felt the
Speaker 2: connection with my family that I didn't have because nobody
Speaker 2: else would talk to me. So you know, we ended
Speaker 2: up getting together and from then on, you know, we've
Speaker 2: been very close. And then Mona, you know, I call
Speaker 2: her my aunt Mona, she reached out to me. You know,
Speaker 2: the same feeling. I was just touched that someone actually
Speaker 2: wanted to talk to me and you know, be there
Speaker 2: for me. So and the same feeling when Jamie reached out.
Speaker 2: You know, I cried every time someone reached out to me,
Speaker 2: and it was the most amazing feeling that they chose
Speaker 2: to have a relationship with.
Speaker 5: Me, Jamie. Let's get back to this cold case investigation
Speaker 5: and the people responsible for this and what are they
Speaker 5: armed with now that will help them be able to
Speaker 5: prosecute this case effectively that they weren't before. What's new
Speaker 5: and what's their idea?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, as I said, it's thirteen years later, cold
Speaker 4: case for thirteen years and the detective knock on Jess's
Speaker 4: she said, and tell her they're going to be arresting
Speaker 4: her stepbrother Jeff. And interestingly, one of the unique things
Speaker 4: I think about this situation is that they don't really
Speaker 4: have new evidence per se, and they're not going to
Speaker 4: have DNA evidence, because this was back in nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 4: But I think this was the type of case that
Speaker 4: just haunts people forever. Obviously it haunted our family, it
Speaker 4: haunted anyone who knew the Pellies, and I think it
Speaker 4: truly haunted the detectives, the community, that church. It's the
Speaker 4: kind of thing where if you ask anybody in Lakeville,
Speaker 4: they all know this story and exactly how old they
Speaker 4: were and kind of where they were at the time
Speaker 4: in life. So I think they just felt like, we
Speaker 4: either bring it now or we're not going to bring it,
Speaker 4: and we have to take a shot at it. And
Speaker 4: so they still had strictly circumstantial evidence, but it was
Speaker 4: kind of a mountain of circumstantial evidence and they still
Speaker 4: to this day. I mean, they never had the murder weapon.
Speaker 4: They just went ahead and brought the case forward.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you talk about as unusual too, with the right
Speaker 5: through a speedy trial. So we talk about the rest
Speaker 5: in August tenth, two thousand and two, and they rest
Speaker 5: Jeff at an airport. He's coming back from Australia business
Speaker 5: trip to Australia. He's thirty one years old at that time.
Speaker 5: He's working for IBM doing something but he's successful. It
Speaker 5: is in Florida with his wife and son, and this
Speaker 5: is all over the newspapers. You talk about this timeline
Speaker 5: when we mentioned earlier on in this it's a problem
Speaker 5: for the prosecution in terms of that timeline of when
Speaker 5: this family was murdered, isn't it.
Speaker 4: Well? I think it cuts both ways. The defense like
Speaker 4: to point to the timeline and say it wasn't possible.
Speaker 4: But I think if you take your average person, if
Speaker 4: you had a plan to do something like this, and
Speaker 4: you knew, I'm going to go take the shotgun and
Speaker 4: I'm going to go shoot these four people, I don't
Speaker 4: really think it takes as long as you might think
Speaker 4: that it would, because you'd have to go back, they
Speaker 4: may fight back. I mean, you really have to do this.
Speaker 4: And he did pick up all the shotgun shells in
Speaker 4: the house and close the curtains and blinds, which was
Speaker 4: very unusual for the parsonage. And I think that the
Speaker 4: window he makes a call to his then girlfriend, I
Speaker 4: think twenty two minutes after the last time that they've
Speaker 4: seen the family alive. So you have to believe that
Speaker 4: in twenty two minutes that he's done the three things
Speaker 4: that he shot them, picked up the shotgun shells, obviously,
Speaker 4: grabbed his tucks, and closed the curtains and windows, locked
Speaker 4: the doors.
Speaker 5: It it takes a further four years be able to
Speaker 5: get him to actual trial. July twelve, two thousand and six.
Speaker 5: It's seventeen years after this, after the murder, and Jesse,
Speaker 5: it's your day in court. You have to go testify.
Speaker 5: You have to see this person again, Jeff, and we
Speaker 5: glossed over the effect of these deaths and your non
Speaker 5: family afterwards, and all the psychological effects that came with that.
Speaker 5: So where are you in terms of psychologically instability or
Speaker 5: non stability and at the time that they ask you
Speaker 5: to testify at this trial.
Speaker 2: Well, when I was thirteen fourteen, I just pushed what
Speaker 2: happened to me down differently, like I was starting over,
Speaker 2: and I became this happy, go lucky person, you know,
Speaker 2: never really thought about it again. So I detected myself.
Speaker 2: So I was able to get through all those years.
Speaker 2: Had I felt it emotionally, I probably wouldn't have. So
Speaker 2: going to trial, I mean, I was scared, but I
Speaker 2: didn't have all the other emotions with it because I
Speaker 2: had detached myself a long time before that. Even came, so,
Speaker 2: like I said, I was scared to see him again.
Speaker 2: I was scared to go into the courtroom. But you know,
Speaker 2: I knew I had to do the right thing.
Speaker 5: What was the trial like for you? You had a
Speaker 5: brief appearance. What did you speak?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Spoke to the prosecuting attorney and that was pretty much it.
Speaker 2: I didn't I wasn't there for the trial. I just
Speaker 2: did what I had to do and then left. So
Speaker 2: but yeah, while I was there, people were like, well,
Speaker 2: who are you? And I was like, well, I'm the sister,
Speaker 2: this writing sister, and they're like, oh, well, we didn't realize.
Speaker 2: So it was just kind of like whoa, you know,
Speaker 2: because I just didn't do a whole lot of interviews
Speaker 2: or anything growing up. And but yeah, it was. It
Speaker 2: was definitely difficult. I mean, say the least.
Speaker 5: Needless to say, three days of deliberation. I will summarize
Speaker 5: this case. What was the outcome at that time? October
Speaker 5: two thousand and two thousand and six.
Speaker 2: He was found guilty and got forty years for every murder,
Speaker 2: so he got hundred sixty years in prison.
Speaker 5: Incredible. Now, Jamie, with this, you write about further developments
Speaker 5: in this case, obviously he has ability to appeal. What
Speaker 5: is your job once this trial is finished and putting
Speaker 5: this all this information together.
Speaker 4: And for this book, well, I always tell me what
Speaker 4: it was a really big story to take on because
Speaker 4: I'm not a lawyer and I'm not a therapist, and
Speaker 4: that's involved so much legal and mental health issues that
Speaker 4: it was really a challenge for me. But I was
Speaker 4: fascinated in talking to her because, as I said, I
Speaker 4: didn't know her story. So it's like, we all know
Speaker 4: he's convicted, but we don't necessarily follow her life after
Speaker 4: that either to know what's happened. And so when he appeals,
Speaker 4: she's kind of left held in that process with him
Speaker 4: because this is the guy who's killed her family. He's
Speaker 4: appealing to try to get out of prison. What's that
Speaker 4: like for her? Like, that's really a crazy space to
Speaker 4: be in. And so the first leg of the appeal,
Speaker 4: Jeff wins and he may get his freedom, and so
Speaker 4: she's then freaking out thinking, oh my gosh, he's going
Speaker 4: to get led out of prison. And this is a
Speaker 4: period of years of her life that she's kind of
Speaker 4: held in abeyance like that. Ultimately, the Indiana Supreme Court
Speaker 4: would uphold the conviction, but to walk with someone in
Speaker 4: real time into their real life and the things she
Speaker 4: felt and thought and worried about.
Speaker 5: It was just a very.
Speaker 4: Interesting experience for me because we usually just here on
Speaker 4: TV someone was convicted or there was an appeal, but
Speaker 4: we don't look at what that means for the people involved.
Speaker 4: And so we really tried to show that in the book.
Speaker 5: Right now, Jesse, where are you in your personal life?
Speaker 5: You talk about all of the things the love's lost,
Speaker 5: but also the loves that you find in your life.
Speaker 5: You have children, Where are you at after this trial?
Speaker 5: And you talk about a pivotal moment in your life
Speaker 5: where everything, I guess catches up with you. Tell us
Speaker 5: about that.
Speaker 2: Yes, I have two children, Cold and Austin comn Is
Speaker 2: nineteen and eighteen. And then I have my husband tyson,
Speaker 2: and a few years ago I had lost a close
Speaker 2: friends of a family to see, Yeah, she was twenty three.
Speaker 2: So I took that very hard. I hadn't dealt with
Speaker 2: death since my family, so I wasn't like I just
Speaker 2: kind of was downspiraling down, spiraling. I could feel myself
Speaker 2: and I just couldn't stop it. And then my husband
Speaker 2: was in the hospital, so that added to it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I had a week just her care. I don't remember
Speaker 2: half the stuff that was going on, So yeah, I
Speaker 2: ended up admitting myself to save myself.
Speaker 5: You found a good therapist, you call him in the book.
Speaker 5: You referred to him as the man. You say that
Speaker 5: it's not overnight, but you also show the reality that
Speaker 5: you know, with your husband's insurance, construction insurance, it's reasonable
Speaker 5: rates for this, you know's what's called for a couple
Speaker 5: therapy sessions a week. But when your husband's insurance lapses,
Speaker 5: we're talking about prohibitive costs for your necessary mental health. Yes,
Speaker 5: But in terms of this book, I guess it's obviously
Speaker 5: it's over use this cathartic qualities or abilities to be
Speaker 5: able with this book. But I think if there ever
Speaker 5: is a book that would be able to be or
Speaker 5: you know, effective for you in terms of doing something
Speaker 5: positive for you, what was the process of writing this book?
Speaker 5: What did it mean for you to be able to
Speaker 5: get this down in print and have this book released?
Speaker 2: I mean, for me, it was like I said, a
Speaker 2: lot of people knew pieces of my life, but nobody
Speaker 2: knew the whole thing. And I think you know, Jamie
Speaker 2: writing this book with me helped me out therapeutically. You know,
Speaker 2: it was like a weight lifted off. It was finally
Speaker 2: going to be out there. And you know, for me,
Speaker 2: it's it's going to help a lot of people that
Speaker 2: are in the same place that I was in and
Speaker 2: I had nobody. You know, people tried, but if you've
Speaker 2: never been through it, it's hard to help someone through that.
Speaker 2: You know, you don't even know where to start. So
Speaker 2: for me, this book is hopefully going to help a
Speaker 2: lot of people that may not know, you know, how
Speaker 2: to get help, or people around people that have been
Speaker 2: through something like this. It will help them to understand
Speaker 2: maybe what the other person might be going through and
Speaker 2: what they can say to them or how to try
Speaker 2: to get them help.
Speaker 5: You included this book very interestingly Jamie letters that Jesse
Speaker 5: would have liked to write Jeff, and then we haven't
Speaker 5: mentioned Jackie at all. Tell us Jamie about the letter
Speaker 5: that Jesse would have wrote to Jackie and what the
Speaker 5: contents would have been, but also what Jackie's response was
Speaker 5: to her stepbrother being suspected and then charged and then convicted.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so Jackie is Jeff's biggest champion as his sister.
Speaker 4: She believes that he's innocent and did not do the murders.
Speaker 4: So it's kind of a very divided family in that way,
Speaker 4: and you have Jackie and Jeff on one side and
Speaker 4: you have Jesse on the other. And it's when you
Speaker 4: look back at how the family was blended to begin with,
Speaker 4: in kind of two separate families, that's what we have
Speaker 4: today with guilt versus innocence. And so I think, as
Speaker 4: you said, the book was cathartic for her, and it
Speaker 4: was kind of like, if you have anything that you
Speaker 4: want to say to either one of them, this was
Speaker 4: the time and place. And so we just sat down
Speaker 4: and talked about it and talked about how she felt,
Speaker 4: and it kind of took her a little while to
Speaker 4: figure out exactly what that was. Because you hold the
Speaker 4: sin for thirty years, it's hard to think of what
Speaker 4: would I say if I could so, so I think
Speaker 4: she shared very openly and honestly, and it's very raw
Speaker 4: and real and very much her truth. And it's not
Speaker 4: an easy thing to write a letter to a killer
Speaker 4: like her stepbrother is a killer. That's who she wrote
Speaker 4: that letter to. It's just it's a very unusual situation.
Speaker 5: Yes, and what I what exactly would she want to
Speaker 5: say to her brother if she could step brother.
Speaker 4: I think she just wants him to know that she
Speaker 4: knows that we all know, and that we all see
Speaker 4: him for what he is and for what he's done.
Speaker 4: And that doesn't make him Jeffrey Dahmer or the worst
Speaker 4: person on earth, but it makes him the murderer of
Speaker 4: their family. And I think as much as she's hidden
Speaker 4: the truth of who she was and what had happened
Speaker 4: to her, in his own way, he's kind of done
Speaker 4: the same thing. So this was just her chance of
Speaker 4: saying I acknowledge you and I acknowledge myself at the
Speaker 4: same time.
Speaker 5: Is it interesting? It's not certainly fitting. But is it
Speaker 5: interesting that he becomes fairly successful and puts this incredibly
Speaker 5: behind him, these murders of the entire family, little children
Speaker 5: behind him. What can you deduce from that?
Speaker 4: I do think it's interesting if you talked to Jesse
Speaker 4: about it. Obviously she had bad experiences with him, and
Speaker 4: he did bully her and engage in some kind of
Speaker 4: unusual behaviors with her. But as we said, it doesn't
Speaker 4: make him a serial killer. It doesn't make him, you know,
Speaker 4: Ted Bundy. But that doesn't mean that a boy at
Speaker 4: seventeen years old can't be so self focused or wanting
Speaker 4: to attend a prompt so badly, or wanting his dad
Speaker 4: not to, you know, not allow him to do the
Speaker 4: things he wants to do that he can't go and
Speaker 4: make one really stupid, really violent, really bad choice. And
Speaker 4: I don't think that that means he couldn't go be
Speaker 4: successful or that he couldn't go have a family. But
Speaker 4: you have to own what you did. So I think
Speaker 4: sometimes people stanup. Sometimes situations kind of a ligne and
Speaker 4: things get out of control and it all just is
Speaker 4: kind of what it is.
Speaker 5: What you say, though, is it sounds like I know
Speaker 5: you're not excusing it, and then certainly Jesse will not
Speaker 5: excuse this, but it sounds like a fit of rage.
Speaker 5: But when you look at telling everyone that he is
Speaker 5: going to go to this prom there's an incredible amount
Speaker 5: of premeditation, it seems, in this murder of the entire family.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there is. And I think we both are very
Speaker 4: much of the mindset that Jeff is guilty and Jeff
Speaker 4: did do this. And I think when I was looking
Speaker 4: at writing the book, the thing that always point to
Speaker 4: Jeff's guilt for Jeff, and what I mean by that
Speaker 4: is it's Jeff's words, it's Jeff's behaviors, and it's just actions.
Speaker 4: That's what A pointed them at Jeff, That's what ultimately
Speaker 4: convicted him. And I know that may not be easy
Speaker 4: for his sister Jackie to hear or to live with,
Speaker 4: and it's not easy for Jesse to live with either.
Speaker 4: I mean, this is affected the way that she views families,
Speaker 4: the way that she views relationships, the way that she's
Speaker 4: able to trust people, or to go out in public
Speaker 4: and not be fearful someone could snap. As a nine
Speaker 4: year old, this really just rocked her world and it
Speaker 4: continued to kind of bleed over as she got older.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, he Jeff proclaims he's innocent to this day, but
Speaker 5: that's would be a purpose to that because he still
Speaker 5: has a faint hope of any redemption on this, but
Speaker 5: not much, not much because he has his appeals have
Speaker 5: been denied, so he has little recourse left, doesn't he.
Speaker 4: He does, He's basically on the very last it's kind
Speaker 4: of like a hail Mary approach is where he's at now.
Speaker 4: So he's through the formal appeals process, the part where
Speaker 4: he really could have been formally let out, and now
Speaker 4: it's kind of the Hail Mary pass at the end.
Speaker 5: I mentioned earlier on that this is a very important
Speaker 5: anniversary with it being April twenty eighth from this broadcast.
Speaker 5: Not everyone will listen to this obviously today live, but
Speaker 5: they'll be listening to it in the future. There was
Speaker 5: always difference in you Jesse at this time, and I
Speaker 5: guess it'll be a different now.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, the ten years always the hardest for me.
Speaker 2: Normally I would just pre time nothing happened, and this
Speaker 2: time of year every year for the past thirty years,
Speaker 2: I let myself cry and think about it and wonder.
Speaker 2: You know, in this past year, I actually kept my
Speaker 2: feelings open all year long. So this year is a
Speaker 2: little bit different for me. It's still hurts and I'll
Speaker 2: still miss them.
Speaker 4: But.
Speaker 2: You know, some good will come out of this finally. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean it's it's definitely a difficult time
Speaker 2: for me emotionally.
Speaker 5: Tell us about plans for this book. I know it's
Speaker 5: to be released tomorrow officially. Tell us if you are
Speaker 5: you ready Jesse for this are you are going to
Speaker 5: You're going to accompany Jamie or are you ready for
Speaker 5: the public.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm a little nervous, to be honest, but
Speaker 2: I think ultimately me coming forward, people will see the
Speaker 2: strengths in that, and that will encourage them to do
Speaker 2: the same thing. You know, it just takes one person
Speaker 2: to make a choice like that, and you know other
Speaker 2: people will follow. I think it will help a lot
Speaker 2: of people and you know, give them strengths that they
Speaker 2: didn't really they even had.
Speaker 5: Jamie, you talked to Jesse at the genesis of this
Speaker 5: book at the beginning of this and said, you asked,
Speaker 5: why after all this time, why Jesse wanted to write
Speaker 5: this book? Why Jessica tell us about these duality this
Speaker 5: d d as well what that means and in his
Speaker 5: relation to this story Jesse, Jessica and what she said
Speaker 5: to you as in terms of the why why now
Speaker 5: why this book?
Speaker 4: Okay? Well as far as the did that is dissociate
Speaker 4: of identity disorder. It used to be known as multiple
Speaker 4: personality disorder. And I know people always think of like
Speaker 4: Sybil when they hear that, but this actually happens to
Speaker 4: people a lot more commonly than they may think. And
Speaker 4: for jess and Jessica. It was basically at nine years old.
Speaker 4: Your brain is not fully formed emotionally at that age,
Speaker 4: and if you're under ten and have a severe trauma,
Speaker 4: this type of thing really takes root and affects you
Speaker 4: in a major way. So basically, Jessica, her childhood self
Speaker 4: kind of splits off emotionally from the person that she
Speaker 4: has to become to be able to move past this tragedy.
Speaker 4: And she doesn't even know she's doing it. She doesn't
Speaker 4: know she's separated those two pieces of herself, but she
Speaker 4: truly did. And it's probably around age I think, like
Speaker 4: thirteen seventh grade. She starts dyeing her hair different colors
Speaker 4: and trying to have friends and boyfriends and be happy.
Speaker 4: And it's really her stepping forward to find a way
Speaker 4: she can live in the world because she can't live
Speaker 4: as sad Jessica. And there's a lot of shame associated
Speaker 4: with Jessica, which was hard for me to kind of
Speaker 4: understand initially, But people who have something tragic happen at
Speaker 4: a young age often carry a ton of shame, even
Speaker 4: if it's not at all their fault. They feel an
Speaker 4: immense amount of shame around who they are and so
Speaker 4: I could definitely hear that, and anytime I would talk
Speaker 4: to her about her childhood self, she would talk about
Speaker 4: herself in third person. And it became to the point
Speaker 4: that we each were more comfortable talking about Jessica in
Speaker 4: third person because that's just what was comfortable for her.
Speaker 4: So I'd be like, tell me about Jessica, what did
Speaker 4: she like? But I'm really talking to Jessica. So it
Speaker 4: was just interesting watching her metamorphosis when you look back
Speaker 4: across the thirty years and realizing what has happened to
Speaker 4: this person and how much sense it actually makes if
Speaker 4: you look at what happened to her and how she
Speaker 4: chooses to carry on. And as you said early on,
Speaker 4: I was like, why now, Like why thirty years later
Speaker 4: are we telling the story? Like it was her story
Speaker 4: to keep and it was her story to tell, But
Speaker 4: why now? And I just remember so clearly one day
Speaker 4: she had said I want people to see me. And
Speaker 4: the day she said it, she said those words so intense,
Speaker 4: with such intensity that I was like, what do you mean?
Speaker 4: Like I can tell that when you say that, it
Speaker 4: really means something to you, But what does it mean?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 4: And she took me back basically to her family's trial,
Speaker 4: and she's like, I'm in the hallway for my own
Speaker 4: family's trial because my whole family's been murdered and people
Speaker 4: are asking who I am, and when I tell them
Speaker 4: I'm the one who, like the sister who survived, they
Speaker 4: don't even know that someone even did. And so I
Speaker 4: think it's really her identity as a person that she
Speaker 4: loses at the age of nine. So it was really
Speaker 4: just a remarkable She has a remarkable story. She's the
Speaker 4: most strong, resilient, amazing person I've ever met, and it
Speaker 4: was just really a sacred honor to try to show
Speaker 4: all the pieces of her to the world. And I
Speaker 4: really view this story as being her gift to the world.
Speaker 4: This is what she was left with, is the story.
Speaker 5: I want to thank you both very very much for
Speaker 5: coming on and talking about this incredible book. I Am Jessica,
Speaker 5: A survivor's powerful story of healing and hope Jesse Toronjo
Speaker 5: and author Jamie Collins. For those that might want to
Speaker 5: take a look at this, is there a website Facebook page?
Speaker 5: Tell us about that, please, Yeah, we have.
Speaker 4: A Facebook page for I Am Jessica's book, and they
Speaker 4: can find the book both on Amazon, and Barnes and Noble.
Speaker 4: We've got Kendall version hardback paperback, so they can definitely
Speaker 4: find us online. We also have a website for the
Speaker 4: book where they can read an excerpt in some early reviews.
Speaker 4: It's also under I amjessicabook dot com and we're both
Speaker 4: on Facebook. We'd love to connect to anyone who wants
Speaker 4: to know us.
Speaker 5: Well, that's fantastic. I want again thank you very much,
Speaker 5: Jesse Toronjo and Jamie Collins. It has been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much and good night.