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Terms and conditions apply. 24 00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:02.479 See what love Tadi. 25 00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:15.159 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 26 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:18.280 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:18.319 --> 00:01:25.640 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 28 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:29.319 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:33.640 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 30 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:48.840 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening, Would You 31 00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:52.640 Kill for Love? True Crime master Ron Francis tells the 32 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:56.640 grizzly story of Alice and Gerald Youden, a loving couple 33 00:01:56.640 --> 00:02:00.560 who murdered at least four people and lived happily after 34 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:04.799 while cops try for decades to piece together a petrifying 35 00:02:04.840 --> 00:02:09.000 tale of murder and secrets. The appalling details are made 36 00:02:09.080 --> 00:02:12.960 even more vivid by the author's familiarity with the wyoming 37 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:17.199 times and places that formed the backdrop of his national 38 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:22.759 bestseller The Darkest Night. In nineteen seventy four, Alice, a 39 00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:26.520 desperate young mother in a gritty, Wyoming boomtown, kills her 40 00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:30.400 husband and dumps his body where it will never be found, 41 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:34.000 then slips away and starts a new life. But when 42 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:37.960 her new man's ex wife and two kids start demanding 43 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:43.280 more of him, Alice delivers an ultimatum fix the problem. 44 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:48.080 Or lose her forever. With Alice's help, Gerald fixes the 45 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:52.599 problem in an extraordinarily ghastly way, and they live happily 46 00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:56.879 ever after. That is until two thousand and thirteen, almost 47 00:02:56.919 --> 00:02:59.960 forty years later, when somebody finds a dead man's scalp 48 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:03.360 in a place where Alice thought he'd never be found. 49 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:07.560 This page turner by best selling true crime author Ron Francell, 50 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:11.400 revisits a shocking cold case that was finally solved just 51 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:15.840 when the murderous murderers thought they'd never be caught. The 52 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:19.000 book they were featuring this evening is Alice and Gerald, 53 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:22.280 a homicidal love story with my special guest, journalist and 54 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:26.199 author Ron Francell. Welcome back to the program, and thank 55 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:28.000 you very much for agreenedness interview. 56 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:32.560 Ron Francell, Well, thank you, thank you Dan for making 57 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:34.759 time for me. It's a privilege to be back. 58 00:03:35.719 --> 00:03:37.800 Thank you very much. It's a privilege to have you on. 59 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:43.360 This is one, as I mentioned, one fantastic exciting edge 60 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:48.800 of your seat book. Let's get right to the central character, 61 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:51.919 or one of them in this book, Gerald Youden, as 62 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:53.560 you write in a book, give us a little bit 63 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:56.439 of background. He was born in Harvard, Nebraska, a little 64 00:03:56.439 --> 00:03:58.240 small town. But tell us a little bit about his 65 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:03.240 life and how it came that he landed in Lander, Wyoming. 66 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:08.560 Well, Gerald was, as you said, Nebraska farm boy he 67 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:15.000 and all that, and you know suggests really he grew 68 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:18.560 up with family all around in a very small town, 69 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:25.879 and ultimately he was just what you'd expect. He wasn't 70 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:34.439 wasn't particularly street smart, he wasn't particularly book smart. And 71 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:38.199 when the time came, he joined the Navy, did his 72 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:43.879 time during during Vietnam, although he didn't go overseas, and 73 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:46.800 when he got out he was still kind of lost. 74 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:50.040 He wasn't really sure what he was going to do, 75 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:55.879 and so he migrated west to Wyoming, where he'd were 76 00:04:56.199 --> 00:05:02.040 job in, you know, the nineteen seventies, and he settled 77 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:09.920 into work as a basically a glorified janitor and mechanic 78 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:14.519 at a big mine out near Land or Wyoming. And 79 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:17.879 that's where this tale sort of picks up. 80 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:21.920 Wait, the lucky land slots. You can get lucky just 81 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:22.920 about anywhere. 82 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:26.600 It's your captain speaking. 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Ety luster. 99 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:19.879 The condition of the plus website retails. 100 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:26.399 Now you talk about his numerous weddings, so numerous marriages, 101 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:29.759 but you also talk about just how it comes to 102 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:32.120 be that he's married, and what he's impressed with, and 103 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:36.000 this whole courting process you include in this. So tell 104 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:39.040 us about his first hasty marriage as you describe it 105 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:39.639 to Wanda. 106 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:47.079 Well, uh, he's simply all of his weddings are are 107 00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:51.959 quick to fall in love, quick to marry, and really 108 00:06:52.040 --> 00:06:56.879 quick to divorce too. All of his marriages, including his 109 00:06:57.040 --> 00:07:04.079 first UH scene to be about his need to build 110 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:07.720 a family that he thinks he should have, and he 111 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:15.399 falls deeply in love with these women who ultimately who 112 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:24.839 ultimately just can't put up with his neediness, his occasional anger. 113 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:30.079 There's no evidence he beat any of them, but I 114 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:35.920 think he was just sort of a dufus who couldn't 115 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:38.879 help but falling in love. Whether it was Wanda or 116 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:43.759 any of the others, he became a three time loser. 117 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:49.720 And simply by the time we see him meeting Alice, 118 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:56.560 who herself is a three time loser, we see his 119 00:07:57.439 --> 00:08:03.879 personality of this obsession with a lover and a wife 120 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:06.800 and a family. We see that pretty plainly. 121 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:13.079 You write about nineteen seventy three, after Wanda takes off 122 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:17.199 after six weeks, he has a landlady named Friend that 123 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:20.399 likes him, and he tells her he's kind of lonely, 124 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:23.040 and soon after he has a knock on his trailer 125 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:29.519 door and it's Virginia. Tell us what Virginia tells Gerald 126 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:33.519 about her situation and the premise upon meeting him and 127 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.240 knocking on his door in the first place, the. 128 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:41.919 Moment when she meets Gerald. She comes to his trailer 129 00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:46.279 and she's got an old gun, an old rifle, and 130 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:50.720 it's a gun that has been in her family for 131 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:57.919 some time, an older piece, and she who being chronically 132 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:01.879 in and out of work, she wants to know the 133 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:07.559 value of this gun, possibly to sell it and have 134 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:10.679 a little bit more money to support herself and her 135 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:18.720 two very young sons. Gerald, who fancies himself to be 136 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:22.639 a little of a gun expert, takes a look at 137 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:27.120 it and determines that some changes have been made that 138 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:32.639 rendered it no more valuable than what it was purchased 139 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:39.080 for decades and decades before, little more than thirty dollars. 140 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:45.960 So the gun itself is a bust. But Gerald, of 141 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:54.000 course falls in immediate love with Virginia, and because of that, 142 00:09:54.639 --> 00:10:04.759 as I mentioned before, he simply had that compulsion to 143 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:08.279 have a woman, and here was one standing on his 144 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:11.879 front porch. Not only that, but she appeared to like guns, 145 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:19.559 which was very appealing to him. So it was, in 146 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:24.759 many ways it's the beginning of the end for Gerald. 147 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:31.159 Yeah, you write that it all starts off quite well. 148 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:35.759 And her two sons take to Gerald and some of 149 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:38.320 the things he does on their behalf and they're calling 150 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:43.720 him Dad. But suddenly there's talk. Virginia says she wants 151 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:46.200 to visit relatives for a little visit, but doesn't want 152 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:49.759 him to go along. Tell us what happens during this 153 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:53.279 visit to relatives in Philadelphia. 154 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:59.240 Virginia was, of course, originally from Pennsylvania. She came out 155 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:03.559 to Wyoming as a young girl with her mother. Her 156 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:08.679 mother had recently divorced, but she was an independent spirit. 157 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:12.679 She had been a Rosy the riveter type during World 158 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:18.960 War Two. She liked to skull on the rivers and 159 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:23.679 lakes out there, and she brought that passion out to Wyoming. 160 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:30.799 At some point in their marriage, Virginia determines she is 161 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:35.559 going to go out and visit relatives in Pennsylvania, and 162 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:40.600 she's there for some time. But when she returns, Gerald 163 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:44.879 senses that the things have changed. She's sort of distant. 164 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:49.840 She doesn't seem to have the same passion for him 165 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:55.879 or for anything else that she had before. What happened 166 00:11:55.879 --> 00:12:02.480 out there, we don't know. We can maybe surmise that 167 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:09.840 she met someone that this person appealed more to her 168 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:14.679 than Gerald did, but we don't know exactly what happened. 169 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:17.759 All we know is that by the time she got 170 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:26.000 back and moved, you know, back back in essentially to 171 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:30.639 her home with her boys and with Gerald, she had changed, 172 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:39.840 and that that leads to ultimately to a separation and 173 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:41.759 then a divorce from Gerald. 174 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:45.320 You're right that in that divorce though, he you know, 175 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:47.799 he had to give her a child support before and 176 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:50.399 he adopted these boys as while she had asked him 177 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:52.720 to adopt these boys, so he did. It was one 178 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:55.840 hundred and fifty a month child support. But he also 179 00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:59.519 put the boys on his US Steel health insurance. And 180 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:02.679 you right that he just considered him himself a chump 181 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:06.679 at that time and was depressed. You say that the 182 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:13.159 sets up for yeah, you right though, that one morning 183 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:16.960 he has a new neighbor and there's a knock on 184 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:20.720 the door. Tell us who's at the door, and a 185 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:25.879 little bit more about this meeting, and again how much 186 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:30.440 is Gerald impressed with this woman and why, Well. 187 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:35.840 We need to understand that that Gerald considers himself kind 188 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:40.679 of a John Wayne. He thinks he's cunning, he thinks 189 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:46.679 he's powerful, he thinks he's a protector, and that underlies 190 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:50.519 this this need that he has to have a family 191 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:59.559 to be the protector. So after the divorce from Virginia, 192 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:07.480 she she goes back to back East again. Maybe there's 193 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:13.320 somebody back there that she wants to connect with. And 194 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:16.440 he's left, as you said, kind of feeling like a chump, 195 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:22.799 kind of kind of feeling like he was bamboozled into 196 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:29.200 adopting the boys and and marrying her and and and 197 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:33.399 in the whole process give her something that she wanted 198 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.159 from him that wasn't love, that that wasn't a relationship. 199 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:46.440 And he's sort of licking his wounds when again there 200 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:49.840 comes a knock on his trailer door in this little 201 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:54.600 trailer park in land or Wyoming. Uh And this time 202 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:59.480 it's his new next door neighbor in a slightly bigger 203 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:05.200 trailer and her name is Alice Prunty, and almost on 204 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:13.879 almost at first sight, he is smitten. Uh he he 205 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:18.440 he tells me that that she is the most beautiful 206 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:25.559 woman he'd ever seen. And and again we see Gerald 207 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:34.159 in this sort of headlong, this headlong romance before before 208 00:15:34.279 --> 00:15:39.440 words are spoken in a sense and uh he he 209 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:44.600 does a chore that that Alice needs, and uh invites 210 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:49.080 her to lunch at a local truck stop and she 211 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:55.080 begins to tell him this this sometimes sad, sometimes sortid 212 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:58.679 the story about her life up to that point, with 213 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:04.360 three marriages and five children, including two that were with 214 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:09.519 her at the time, and he's taken by. 215 00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:12.200 The sadness of it, but he's he's. 216 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:14.639 Also admiring her even. 217 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:16.639 As she speaks. 218 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:28.639 As he explains it, he's simply overcome with this obsession, 219 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:31.840 this compulsion to be with Alice. 220 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:35.159 The next day, they go fishing and. 221 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:37.639 She tells them a little bit more of her story. 222 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:41.000 That the. 223 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:47.639 Urge to be the protector Kicksie in big time. He 224 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:52.559 sees her as somebody who has kind of had a 225 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:58.200 bad life and suffered, has suffered a lot up to 226 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:03.320 that point, and he believes he can make her better, 227 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:07.119 that she deserves better, and that she deserves him. 228 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:08.680 Uh So. 229 00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:15.599 The the courtship, I should say that after that fishing trip, 230 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:20.000 that evening, they make love for the first time, and 231 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:26.920 Alice tells him as they as they lay there that 232 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:33.839 she had killed a man and that that he was abusive, 233 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:41.400 that he had taken after her child, the toddler, and 234 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:44.960 was about to kill her when Alice got a gun 235 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:53.519 and shot him to death. Gerald, again so obsessed, kind 236 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:59.640 of brushes it off. He believes the guy probably deserved it. 237 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:05.319 Was an abuser. And this was the time in Wyoming 238 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:12.240 that was unrooted. People came and went with the oil fields, 239 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:18.000 with the mining, with you know, gas production, with coal. 240 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:23.640 It was a big boom time. So people from all 241 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:30.240 over came for work and sometimes just left abruptly to 242 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:33.640 go home, to go someplace else, to get another job, 243 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:38.279 whatever it was. Today they're here, and tomorrow they're gone, 244 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:39.920 and soon. 245 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:40.599 People just. 246 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:48.440 When Alice killed this husband, she although she didn't tell 247 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:52.559 Gerald this at first, she disposed of him, as you noted, 248 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.079 in a place where she expected that he would never 249 00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.839 be found, and then she moved away. In the process, 250 00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:06.880 nobody noticed it was this nice little couple that had 251 00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:11.039 moved into a trailer park in Cheyenne, Wyoming, were gone 252 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:17.720 the next day, and nobody thought twice about that. And 253 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:22.400 it's then when she goes to Lander and meets Gerald 254 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:25.799 and then tells him the story, not only the story 255 00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:29.240 of her life, but the story of this shooting that 256 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:34.799 she claimed to his self defense. And again he simply 257 00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:39.519 bought it. He simply wanted to believe it because he 258 00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:44.359 needed to protect her, He needed to protect their children. 259 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:48.240 After all that was part of his mindset. 260 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:55.559 You're right too that not only is young Eliza with Alice, 261 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:58.960 but also that another son, Michael, because she has five children. 262 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:03.839 Michael moves in and through school. He's interested in pigs 263 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:09.759 for this agricultural young Farmer's program. And Gerald, being this 264 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:13.640 ready made, ready to be a father, built a big 265 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:17.200 pig pen for this new son, didn't he. 266 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:21.119 Yeah, And let me back up a little bit and 267 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:25.640 say Alice had five children, three of them were school 268 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:31.559 age or younger, and they bounced back and forth between 269 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:40.039 her home in Wyoming and various relatives back east. Times 270 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.960 just occasionally became tough for her, and when they did, 271 00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:45.519 she sent kids back east. When they got a little 272 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:49.240 bit better, they'd come out or when something happened. So 273 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:55.119 they're bouncing around in you know, different combinations. His son 274 00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:59.119 and daughter go, then son comes back, then goes back 275 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.680 to Illin Noi, and daughter comes out to Wayne. Was 276 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:08.039 It was a very confusing element of their family which 277 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:16.039 was clearly in chaos, maybe dysfunctional. So yeah, here this 278 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:22.039 one son in who is school age, decides he's going 279 00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:25.599 to be in the four h program at his Wyoming school. 280 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:29.640 And he decides that he'll raise pigs. As you pointed out, 281 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:34.279 Gerald builds him a pig pin on their remote little 282 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:39.480 we'll call it a farm, although they didn't raise anything 283 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:44.640 until the pigs came along. He builds the pig pen. 284 00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:49.240 And at that point life is good. The son is 285 00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:56.039 thriving more or less in school. They're raising their young daughter, Eliza. 286 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.799 They're in a place that they had always in their 287 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:07.000 short relationship, dreamed of being, you know, a remote farm 288 00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:12.839 like place that it was distant from other people, distant 289 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:21.119 from towns, distant from all the kind of observation and observers, 290 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:23.920 and that appealed to them. They just wanted to be 291 00:22:24.119 --> 00:22:29.799 left alone. And here they were in this place that 292 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:34.480 suited that wish. 293 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:40.160 Now Virginia, meanwhile, you say that she had moved east 294 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:44.039 and with the boys and for a new start. But 295 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:49.279 you talk about difficulties with the boys and with I 296 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.240 guess this new Jersey and everything that they thought that 297 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:54.599 was going to work out for them. So what does 298 00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:58.240 Virginia start to do and what does she start to 299 00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:02.240 have and what does she do involving Gerald. 300 00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:09.559 Well, Virginia, as you point out, moves east and has 301 00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:12.920 a series of jobs. If she had a relationship with 302 00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:17.839 somebody out there. It just fell apart because eventually things 303 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:22.359 are just not working out, and she decides she's going 304 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:25.079 to move back to Wyoming and live with her mother, 305 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:29.880 who was a manager of a local laundromat in this 306 00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:35.480 small town of Riverton, Wyoming. It was a sort of 307 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:41.519 sanctuary for her, in a free space where she was 308 00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:47.079 protected and as well, you know, could live cheaply. The 309 00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:51.960 little boys, although covered by Gerald's pretty good insurance policy, 310 00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:54.599 tended to get sick a lot. 311 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:56.480 Pretty soon. 312 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:04.920 Her resources were trained, and that's that's what inspires her 313 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:10.559 to come back to Wyoming. Once she's back, she begins 314 00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:15.920 to talk in some you know, in a sort of 315 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:22.799 hinting ways, that she needs a little more child support. 316 00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:26.720 It's not that much anyway. It's only seventy five dollars 317 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:29.480 a month for both kids, so only one hundred and 318 00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:35.440 fifty dollars that Gerald had to pay. Gerald, for his part, 319 00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:40.000 was happy to entertain the idea of more child support. 320 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:43.799 He was he was certainly making enough money to cover it. 321 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:49.720 And once again, this protector, this urged to be the 322 00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:53.079 protector had had. 323 00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:57.200 Kicked in. Okay, he he. 324 00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:03.359 Was okay with who wasn't okay with it is Alice. 325 00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:13.480 Alice believed very strongly, almost perversely, that an ex wife 326 00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:19.519 should simply disappear. She certainly shouldn't pop up in her 327 00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:27.720 ex husband's life in any way. So Virginia asking for 328 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:34.440 more money sent Alice up the wall, and pretty soon 329 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:41.279 Alice is responding to Virginia in a series of sort 330 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:45.880 of grotesque letters where she's very angry and very profane 331 00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:56.400 and abusive really and the whole relationship, as it were, 332 00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:02.559 just went south very quickly. And uh so there we 333 00:26:02.599 --> 00:26:06.880 have it. There, there, we've set up the conflict. Gerald 334 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:12.519 is not not so concerned. Alice is, uh, sort of 335 00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:19.200 perversely concerned, and Virginia is out there angling for ways 336 00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.960 that you get more money and and actually even considers 337 00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:34.039 a legal remedy, which I think certainly enrages Alice even more. 338 00:26:35.319 --> 00:26:39.559 Although it's difficult when you read these letters, which which 339 00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:43.920 are in the book, When you read these letters, it's 340 00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:48.759 difficult to believe that that Alice could be more enraged. 341 00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:55.759 But she was. You write that, and in those letters 342 00:26:55.799 --> 00:27:00.960 that she belittles Virginia incredibly, and just to top it off, 343 00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:05.160 and the torment and those letters says listen, we're going 344 00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:07.720 to get those boys. They're going to treat me like 345 00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:11.440 their new mom. And then calls her things like worthless 346 00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:15.160 and all kinds of derogatory comments. So this was a 347 00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:19.680 psychological torment that Alice certainly knew that she was doing, didn't. 348 00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:30.640 She absolutely it was completely deliberate. She simply wanted not 349 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:35.039 not to just make make Virginia feel bad. She wanted 350 00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:40.480 to hallow her out and reduce her to, you know, 351 00:27:40.839 --> 00:27:45.839 a pile of dust. The names she calls her, the 352 00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:51.960 suggestions that she makes as you point out to say, 353 00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:59.279 we will become the boy's family, they'll forget you, we 354 00:27:59.319 --> 00:28:04.039 will treat them better than you did, that sort of thing, 355 00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:10.200 And it was calculated simply to hurt. Beyond hurt, it 356 00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:16.119 was calculated to devastate. Can you imagine a mother being 357 00:28:16.119 --> 00:28:21.079 told by her arch nemesis that she's going to lose 358 00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:29.079 her two sons to this evil, profane woman who has 359 00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:35.400 every intention of winning them over to her affection. I 360 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:39.720 can't imagine. I can't imagine how Virginia must have felt. 361 00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:47.160 And frankly, I can't even conjure up how abusive and 362 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:52.640 how evil Alice could be to say the things she 363 00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:55.200 said in these letters, and again they're in the book. 364 00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:59.680 You get to read Alice's letters, you get to see 365 00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:01.400 brute vi Ginya's responses. 366 00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:05.240 It's startling, it really is. 367 00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:13.160 Let's fast forward to September nineteen eighty. There is contact 368 00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:16.400 and visitation with Gerald, but of course Alice doesn't like it. 369 00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:19.720 Alice doesn't want to meet Virginia. Virginia is not allowed 370 00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:25.119 on their property, so it's not good conditions. But in 371 00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:30.839 September nineteen eighty, Virginia is looking to get some of 372 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:35.880 her belongings back from New Jersey and mentions it to Gerald. 373 00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:40.400 Tell us what happens with this mentioning of her need 374 00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:42.599 for a trailer? What does Gerald come up with? 375 00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:48.400 Well, I say, she has moved back, of course, from 376 00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:51.519 New Jersey is where she had ended up out there. 377 00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:56.599 She has moved back to Wyoming, but left a lot 378 00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:01.960 of her personal belongings, some of the the boys belongings 379 00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:06.359 back in New Jersey and storage. In order to go 380 00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:11.119 back and get these things. She couldn't use her dilapidated 381 00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:15.839 little car. She needed she needed something bigger, a trailer, 382 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:18.720 and she mentions that to Gerald, and I should point 383 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:22.559 out to your listeners that she and Gerald continued to 384 00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:27.680 have a friendly relationship. There was there was. They would 385 00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:30.119 see each other on the street and talk. Gerald would 386 00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:37.480 have the boys over for you know, visits, even weekends. 387 00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:43.359 His relationship with Virginia was still what we'd say was 388 00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:48.720 was amicable. It was Alice who was having a problem. 389 00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:53.720 But Gerald. Gerald has been given an ultimatum by Alice, 390 00:30:54.279 --> 00:30:58.119 and it is essentially, you take care of this or 391 00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:04.079 I'm out of here. Let's go back to Gerald's psychopathy. 392 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:10.400 Here he thinks he's John Wayne. He thinks he has 393 00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:14.440 a job to protect. He also is obsessed with having 394 00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:18.599 a family, with having a lover, with having a wife, 395 00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:21.559 and here he has one who he thinks is the 396 00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:26.160 most beautiful woman in the world, and he doesn't want 397 00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:32.799 to lose her. It's pretty clear what she's suggesting to him. 398 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:41.400 So when Virginia talks about borrowing a trailer in order 399 00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:45.759 to get her goods from New Jersey, Gerald sees an opening. 400 00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:51.799 He claims that he has a friend who delivers hay 401 00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:55.400