1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,759 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,640 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 14 00:00:49,679 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas, and we're. 15 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 4: Joined today by podcaster Jennifer Ammel and Badass survivor Jane 16 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,439 Barowski here to talk to us about the Dark Valley podcast. 17 00:01:02,359 --> 00:01:04,519 Jane and Jen, welcome to the podcast. 18 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 5: Hi, thank you, glad to be here. 19 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 6: Hey, yeah, pleasure to be here. Thanks for having us. 20 00:01:12,159 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 4: So, before we get into the new podcast, Dark Valley, 21 00:01:16,239 --> 00:01:17,959 go ahead and start by telling us a little bit 22 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,920 about yourselves. Jen, I'll start with you, and then Jane 23 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,760 jump on and tell us a little bit about yourselves professionally, educationally, 24 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:26,799 that sort of thing. Cool. 25 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 6: Yeah, I am a college dropout, but I do have 26 00:01:31,239 --> 00:01:35,319 a background in journalism and documentary filmmaking which led me 27 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:36,599 here to podcasting. 28 00:01:37,359 --> 00:01:38,519 Speaker 4: Excellent, Jane, how about you. 29 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:44,159 Speaker 7: I'm a mom, a wife, a grandma and do some 30 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,280 podcasting on the side. And I'm an advocate. I want 31 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,680 to get that out there. I am a victim advocate too. 32 00:01:50,879 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 4: Talk to us a little bit about Dark Valley. What 33 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,159 is this podcast about primarily? And how did you get 34 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,200 the idea? How did the two of you meet and 35 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:02,719 start this podcast partnership? 36 00:02:03,599 --> 00:02:07,359 Speaker 6: Jane, do you want me to take the elevator pitch please? 37 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,840 Dark Valley is a new investigative series from my company, 38 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,280 Cross Space Media and our partners at Glassbox Media, and 39 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,639 it is about the unsolved cases of the Connecticut River 40 00:02:21,719 --> 00:02:25,879 Valley killer up in New England. We're investigating eight murders 41 00:02:26,439 --> 00:02:30,039 and one attack. There's one survivor of the serial killer 42 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,080 and she's speaking with us right now. 43 00:02:33,159 --> 00:02:36,319 Speaker 2: And so, Jane, how did you and Jen originally meet? 44 00:02:36,439 --> 00:02:40,000 What's the connection that created this new partnership. 45 00:02:40,759 --> 00:02:44,199 Speaker 7: Jen and Cross Space Media contacted me and they wanted 46 00:02:44,199 --> 00:02:46,960 to start this project with Dark Valley. It was a 47 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,879 coincidence because at the same time, I was just getting 48 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:56,120 ready to create Invisible Tears, my own podcast. We ended 49 00:02:56,159 --> 00:02:59,560 up meeting up and I was really interested in whish 50 00:02:59,719 --> 00:03:02,479 want to go with the Dark Valley and why she 51 00:03:02,599 --> 00:03:05,879 wanted to do it. We just got together and started 52 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:07,319 talking and here we are. 53 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,879 Speaker 2: And so were your initial meetings face to face or 54 00:03:13,439 --> 00:03:14,879 over the web like we're doing now. 55 00:03:15,479 --> 00:03:18,759 Speaker 6: We initially I initially called you, right Jane after a 56 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,199 brief message on Facebook, and I had heard Jane's story 57 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,199 and I was like, there's no way she's going to 58 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,039 respond to me. There's no way. And then she was like, Okay, 59 00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:30,520 I'll hear you out. Let's have a phone call. The 60 00:03:30,599 --> 00:03:34,400 timing was serendipitous, as you touched on, Jane, Yeah, it's 61 00:03:34,439 --> 00:03:36,840 been almost three years that we've been in production. 62 00:03:37,159 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 4: Yeah. 63 00:03:37,639 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 5: Crazy. 64 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 7: And then Jen Timdley, it's with Crowdspace, came to our 65 00:03:42,719 --> 00:03:47,319 hometown and we did some videotaping and some audio and 66 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,479 just went from there. But I think the project wasn't 67 00:03:50,599 --> 00:03:53,840 exactly what Jenna had pictured at first, and we went 68 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,159 a different direction and it was a great meeting. I 69 00:03:57,199 --> 00:04:00,159 had been approached by some other people about doing my 70 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,680 story and interest in different things about my story, and 71 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,360 I hadn't always had the best relationship with these people. 72 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,560 I felt like they all had an agenda. 73 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:14,039 Speaker 5: When I met. 74 00:04:13,919 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 7: Jenna and Crowdspace, it was I felt like they were 75 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,319 the perfect people to do this story, to do Dark 76 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:24,399 Valley and the Connecticut River Valley cases, talk about them 77 00:04:24,519 --> 00:04:27,120 and talk about the victims, and they were just a 78 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,279 perfect fit for it. We just we have hit it 79 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,639 off since it's been awesome. It's been a great ride. 80 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,160 It's been very interesting. I did warn her right off 81 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,279 the bat, but she was like, I want to find 82 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,199 answers for you and the families. And I said, you're 83 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,519 going to have By the end, you're going to have 84 00:04:46,519 --> 00:04:50,759 more questions and answers. I guarantee it, and she's pretty 85 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:51,680 much has happened. 86 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 4: Before we get too terribly much further in talking about 87 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,319 the big issues, let's actually have the s two of 88 00:05:00,319 --> 00:05:03,399 you walk us through the basics of the Connecticut River 89 00:05:03,519 --> 00:05:05,519 Valley case. Jenna, I'll start with you, and then you 90 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,560 and Jane can bounce it back and forth. Tell us 91 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,800 a little bit about the Connecticut River Valley Killer. 92 00:05:10,319 --> 00:05:13,519 Speaker 6: Oh geez. I want to preface by saying, I think 93 00:05:13,639 --> 00:05:15,839 Jane and I were aligned in our mission and our 94 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,680 values in telling these stories because we didn't want to 95 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,959 put so much focus on who this man was who 96 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,240 killed these women, and really wanted to approach it inversely 97 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,000 the other way around, by learning more about the other 98 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,319 women who were murdered. And of course, like I was 99 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,199 interested in Jane's life and what happened to her after 100 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,639 her attack, Like she lived thirty six years after this, 101 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,160 what's that story too. That said, we have been able 102 00:05:41,199 --> 00:05:44,000 to glean a couple things about who this killer is. 103 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,519 The cases are a little confusing because we don't know 104 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,120 if all of them are actually connected. There's no like 105 00:05:50,199 --> 00:05:53,399 piece of DNA that links each case or anything. We 106 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,959 do look at certain patterns that develop in each case. 107 00:05:57,519 --> 00:06:00,879 I think the Valley Killer is marked by they were 108 00:06:00,959 --> 00:06:05,000 all stabbing victims. All the women were probably victims of 109 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,800 opportunity out in the world, hitchhiking, talking on payphones, that 110 00:06:08,879 --> 00:06:13,399 sort of thing, abducted, taken elsewhere, and stabbed in a 111 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,279 V shape pattern. That's their upper chest and abdomen, usually 112 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,160 the ones that we can tell their throats were cut 113 00:06:21,199 --> 00:06:23,959 as well. Jane, do you want to talk about Does 114 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:25,480 any of that match up with your case? 115 00:06:26,079 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 5: Oh? 116 00:06:26,319 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 7: Yeah, exactly. I was stabbed multiple times. When he approached me, 117 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,319 he wanted me to go with him, so I was 118 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,480 very adamant that I wouldn't go with him, Thank god, 119 00:06:36,519 --> 00:06:39,519 because I probably wouldn't be here speaking with you people today. 120 00:06:39,879 --> 00:06:43,680 He stabbed me multiple times, mostly a lot in the chest, 121 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:45,240 and left me for dead. 122 00:06:45,759 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 5: I was a victim of opportunity. It was at night. 123 00:06:49,079 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 7: I was in a parking lot at a closed door 124 00:06:51,959 --> 00:06:55,240 getting a soda out of a soda machine. There was 125 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,879 also a payphone there, and there was a couple of 126 00:06:57,879 --> 00:07:01,399 the other girls that there was a phone where they 127 00:07:01,399 --> 00:07:05,680 were at. So the similarities there are several similarities to 128 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,279 all the cases, including my own. 129 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: It's probably worth mentioning at this point that the core 130 00:07:12,959 --> 00:07:16,079 cases that we believe may be part of the Connecticut 131 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,920 River Valley killings stretched from about nineteen seventy eight to 132 00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:26,040 nineteen eighty eight, and it's probably worth mentioning, especially for 133 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,439 our younger listeners. We're talking about a situation where there 134 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,720 are no cell phones. If you want to make a 135 00:07:31,759 --> 00:07:34,759 phone call, you're either at home, at work, or you're 136 00:07:34,839 --> 00:07:39,480 using a payphone. Those are the options. For instance, my 137 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,480 son Chris, who's twenty five, now, I'm not sure that he, 138 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,920 as a young man, has ever even used a payphone. 139 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,839 I think he's seen one, but I'm not sure that 140 00:07:48,199 --> 00:07:52,279 for our younger listeners, they quite get the fact that 141 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,120 if you wanted to reach someone, it was home, work, 142 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,079 or a payphone, or maybe a friend's house. The evening 143 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,959 that you stopped on the way home from a fair, 144 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,639 as I recall Jane, you're at a place where the 145 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,639 convenience store is closed, but you know that there's a 146 00:08:12,079 --> 00:08:14,720 vending machine there and you can grab a cold drink. 147 00:08:14,959 --> 00:08:17,600 And that's also a place where there's a payphone. So 148 00:08:17,639 --> 00:08:21,959 someone pulling in even to a closed store is not 149 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,319 that unusual because of the payphone location. 150 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:26,839 Speaker 5: Correct, Oh, exactly. 151 00:08:27,319 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 7: And this was a very small town and in the 152 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:35,320 eighties it had virtually no major crime there, so it 153 00:08:35,399 --> 00:08:39,000 was a safe community. And don't forget because there was 154 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:43,279 no social media either. I was unaware of the other 155 00:08:43,399 --> 00:08:47,759 cases in the Hampshire. I had no reason to even 156 00:08:47,919 --> 00:08:51,639 be any sort of terrified to stop or nervous to 157 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,320 stop or hesitant. I felt safe. It was a safe community. 158 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,279 I had no reason not to feel safe. 159 00:08:57,759 --> 00:09:01,159 Speaker 4: So when did you find out that you're attack was 160 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,360 potentially a part of a much larger series of killings. 161 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:06,440 When did you find that out? 162 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's interesting. 163 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 7: After my attack, when I was in the hospital, I 164 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,000 was all over the news my attack. News stations were 165 00:09:15,039 --> 00:09:17,679 all in front of the hospital. I was in all 166 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,519 the newspapers, and my family protected me from all that. 167 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,600 I really didn't know exactly what was going on outside 168 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,000 the hospital. And then one day I had mentioned to 169 00:09:30,039 --> 00:09:34,240 my mother something about the news outside the hospital, and 170 00:09:34,279 --> 00:09:35,919 she was like, Oh, you're all over the news. You're 171 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,320 all over the newspapers. She gave me a newspaper and 172 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,240 I started reading it, and there's all the other victims' 173 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:47,600 names in the newspaper. And then they like, this may 174 00:09:47,639 --> 00:09:51,639 be another victim of the Connecticut River Valley serial killer. 175 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,559 So that was like crazy reading it in the paper. 176 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,600 I'm like, oh my god, okay, one, I'm all over 177 00:09:57,639 --> 00:10:00,559 the news my name. So if he wants he knows 178 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,960 that I'm alive, he knows that I survived too. If 179 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,240 he wants to find me, he knows what my name is. 180 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:13,120 And three, I'm the only survivor and I can identify him. 181 00:10:13,759 --> 00:10:18,159 It was just layer over layer of really information that 182 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,840 I was reading that was just horrifying to me. 183 00:10:21,639 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 2: On top of everything else. You're also an expectant mother. 184 00:10:24,879 --> 00:10:28,120 Had you had your daughter by the time you got 185 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:29,000 out of the hospital. 186 00:10:29,759 --> 00:10:30,279 Speaker 5: I had not. 187 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 7: I still carried her for another two months after my attack, 188 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,279 so I went full term with her. 189 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, back then. 190 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 7: The difference between now and that's so different because, like then, 191 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,360 they put all the victims' names all over the news 192 00:10:48,399 --> 00:10:49,519 and in the newspaper. 193 00:10:50,039 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 5: Today they don't do that. Thank god. 194 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,879 Speaker 7: I'm so thankful that they don't do that for safety 195 00:10:56,039 --> 00:10:59,320 of victims today. The only time that there's really a 196 00:10:59,399 --> 00:11:03,080 victim's name is when somebody has been charged or the 197 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,480 person that did the harm is no longer there. It's 198 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,639 nice to see that they don't do that anymore. It's 199 00:11:09,919 --> 00:11:14,159 layered protection for victims that survive even now. 200 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: In sexual assault cases, sometimes the victim's name is not 201 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:24,320 given as it moves through the courts. The suspect was identified, 202 00:11:24,399 --> 00:11:27,240 but the victim sometimes is not. She may be given 203 00:11:27,279 --> 00:11:30,240 a pseudonym or just referred to by a number or 204 00:11:30,279 --> 00:11:35,240 something else. We're more sensitive, I think, to victims' rights 205 00:11:35,279 --> 00:11:39,519 and respecting individuals privacy than we might have been back then. 206 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 4: Exactly, Jen, as a journalist, what is your main goal 207 00:11:44,039 --> 00:11:47,399 for Dark Valley? Clearly it's to get out the story 208 00:11:47,639 --> 00:11:50,799 of the Connecticut River Valley killings and the victims. But 209 00:11:51,279 --> 00:11:53,080 what other goals do you have in mind? What do 210 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,519 you hope will ultimately come up this podcast? 211 00:11:56,159 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 6: Thank you, Yeah, great question. As we touched on before, 212 00:11:59,759 --> 00:12:03,080 the primary goal with this is a resurrection story. We 213 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,799 want to know these women's lives as much as their deaths. 214 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,360 We want to know what Jane's life is like. But 215 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,799 of course the great hope with any kind of in 216 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,679 depth investigative project is to move the needle in these cases. 217 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,879 We want law enforcement to listen. We want them to 218 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:24,639 reopen investigations. We want them to contact Jane Burrowski and 219 00:12:24,879 --> 00:12:28,679 have a conversation with her, and we hope to elicit 220 00:12:28,759 --> 00:12:31,600 tips too. The public has power absolutely. 221 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,879 Speaker 2: What level of cooperation have you gotten from law enforcement? 222 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,840 There's at least two states that are part of this. 223 00:12:39,039 --> 00:12:43,360 These cases took place in New Hampshire and in Vermont. 224 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,480 What kind of cooperation. If any do you get from 225 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:47,840 law enforcement. 226 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,759 Speaker 6: In terms of production or in terms of Jane's personal 227 00:12:51,039 --> 00:12:52,720 relationship with law enforcement. 228 00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 2: I would say both. 229 00:12:54,759 --> 00:12:57,759 Speaker 6: Nothing and either wow. 230 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 4: I don't think we're surprised, but wow. 231 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 7: Back in the eighties, after a few of the bodies 232 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,240 were found, they did form a task force between Knee, 233 00:13:07,279 --> 00:13:10,000 Amsure and Vermont and that went on for I don't 234 00:13:10,039 --> 00:13:12,919 know what, was it, a couple of years, Jen, Yeah, 235 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,159 something like that. And then the cases went cold. And 236 00:13:17,279 --> 00:13:20,159 when I say they went cold, they went ice cold. 237 00:13:20,759 --> 00:13:24,679 They stopped communicating with me. I even think that the 238 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,879 Amshire and Vermont stopped communicating with each other. People still 239 00:13:29,039 --> 00:13:33,440 they still come with information, new tips. Everybody wants to 240 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,639 solve everything. Now true crime is huge, and when somebody 241 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,519 hears a story, they want to solve it. And I've 242 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:45,039 had people literally come and knock on my door several 243 00:13:45,519 --> 00:13:49,120 It still happens. I just had some last year. It 244 00:13:49,279 --> 00:13:52,399 still happens. They come and knock on my door and say, 245 00:13:52,519 --> 00:13:55,919 I have credible information. I've given it to the authorities, 246 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,440 and then I don't feel like they're doing anything with it. 247 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,279 I want to give you the information. I can't do 248 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,399 anything with this information, there's nothing that I. 249 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 5: Can do with it. 250 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,039 Speaker 7: You have to try to communicate with the authorities up 251 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:12,120 being conquered and they just don't get any responses. And 252 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,480 I call up and I don't get any responses. Jen, 253 00:14:16,759 --> 00:14:19,320 how hard was it for me to even find out 254 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:20,840 where my case file was? 255 00:14:20,919 --> 00:14:22,639 Speaker 5: Who's investigating my case? 256 00:14:23,279 --> 00:14:27,159 Speaker 6: We still don't technically know who the lead is on 257 00:14:27,279 --> 00:14:30,919 Jane's case. There's a little bit of confusing backstory to that, 258 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,879 but yeah, the long and short of it is that 259 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,279 New Hampshire is a bit different than other states. The 260 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,759 Attorney General will usually take the investigative lead on major crimes, 261 00:14:41,879 --> 00:14:46,320 including homicide, including attempted murder in Jane's case, So I 262 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,240 started by reaching out to the Age of New Hampshire. 263 00:14:49,279 --> 00:14:52,720 It's like basic information, what's the status of these cases? 264 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,840 Can you comment at all? Like really softball sort of things. 265 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,559 And I did speak to the former associated to General 266 00:15:00,639 --> 00:15:03,000 and he said that Jane's case was not his, it 267 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,759 was not under the purview of the Attorney General and 268 00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:09,639 I was like, what since fun. He didn't really elaborate 269 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,240 on what had happened in that process, but he directed 270 00:15:13,279 --> 00:15:17,200 me to the municipal police where Jane's attack occurred as 271 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,399 well as the District Attorney of Cheshire County. Both those 272 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,039 agencies did not have Jane's case. And then during the 273 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,000 same time during the winter, like this past winter, Jang, 274 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,919 you got in contact with a detective with the New 275 00:15:30,919 --> 00:15:33,480 Hampshire State Police who said that he had a personal 276 00:15:33,519 --> 00:15:36,279 interest in your case. But then when press said he 277 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,519 wasn't the lead either and that it was under the 278 00:15:38,559 --> 00:15:41,720 purview of the Attorney General. So we still don't really. 279 00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 2: This all sounds very circular, so you're back to thinking 280 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,360 it's the age. Will they not respond at all to inquiries? 281 00:15:49,879 --> 00:15:52,679 Speaker 6: Well, they did initially. I think at this point I'm 282 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:57,200 not getting any further with any comments from the ag 283 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,879 or the State Police. Jane. Probably we'll have more luck 284 00:16:00,879 --> 00:16:05,320 in the future, hopefully or another journalist perchance. New Hampshire 285 00:16:05,399 --> 00:16:08,480 is like notorious for playing their cards pretty close to 286 00:16:08,519 --> 00:16:12,200 the best. The party line is don't speak to the media, 287 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,679 and I hope that changes in the future. 288 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,519 Speaker 2: We find in the Colonial Parkway Murders, my sister's unsolved murder. 289 00:16:18,639 --> 00:16:21,559 Kathy and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski are the first two 290 00:16:21,639 --> 00:16:25,159 victims in the Colonial Parkway murders. Half of those cases 291 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,840 are FBI cases, and half of them are Virginia State 292 00:16:27,879 --> 00:16:32,360 Police cases. Just due to jurisdictional issues, They're not good 293 00:16:32,399 --> 00:16:36,279 about sharing information. They refuse to speak to the media. 294 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,200 We've had dozens, if not hundreds of inquiries, and for 295 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,080 the most part, all they'll say is the same thing. 296 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,519 I could pretty much write word for word what they're 297 00:16:44,519 --> 00:16:47,919 going to say. It's an open case. We continue to investigate. 298 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,519 When we have something to say, we'll have something to say. 299 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,879 It's the same old and even them getting back to 300 00:16:53,919 --> 00:16:58,440 the families is often incredibly difficult. I've certainly called them 301 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,960 out on this. They returned my calls now, but I 302 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,839 had to insist, even in impolite ways, that my phone 303 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:09,799 calls would be returned because I said, I'm going to 304 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:13,000 call you guys out publicly. In Kathy's case, Kathy and 305 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,640 Becky are handled by the FBI, so I deal with 306 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,480 the FBI, which is a challenge in and of itself. 307 00:17:19,039 --> 00:17:22,480 I had hoped that you were getting a little bit 308 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,319 more cooperation from the New Hampshire State Police. 309 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:27,839 Speaker 4: Jane. You don't even know if they're considering your case 310 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:31,160 an open case. Oh, I can tell there's a story. 311 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:37,039 Speaker 7: I mean with Jen's help, I seb many paperwork to 312 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,039 get access to my case file. And that's when all 313 00:17:41,079 --> 00:17:43,440 of a sudden, out of the blue, I had talked 314 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,880 to this state police trooper and as long as I 315 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:51,119 talked to him for two seconds, and he tells me 316 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,799 that he's investigating my case, it's considered an open case, 317 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,680 and therefore I don't have access to my files, my 318 00:17:59,759 --> 00:18:03,039 case files, and that's all they have to do. Jennet 319 00:18:03,079 --> 00:18:06,680 emailed him and he was supposed to email me back 320 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,920 and we were supposed to meet up back in November 321 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,759 December somewhere around there, and I haven't heard back from him. 322 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,839 Jen had received an email from him, and he did 323 00:18:17,839 --> 00:18:20,039 put a little snippet in there. I oh, Jane a 324 00:18:20,079 --> 00:18:22,759 phone call. I'm still waiting for that phone call. 325 00:18:23,599 --> 00:18:27,559 Speaker 2: And later, Yeah, I'll give. 326 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 7: You another example. They called me about three years ago. Instead, 327 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,519 we lifted prints off your car fingerprints. We would like 328 00:18:35,559 --> 00:18:38,599 you to come back in to get refingerprinted. We think 329 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,400 we have a set that is unidentified by anybody else 330 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:43,680 that had been fingerprinted. 331 00:18:43,839 --> 00:18:45,559 Speaker 5: And I see it. Tell me when and where. 332 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,519 Speaker 7: The state trooper said, I'll call you in a in 333 00:18:49,599 --> 00:18:52,559 about a week or two we'll schedule something and then 334 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,599 we'll have you come in. That was three years ago 335 00:18:55,599 --> 00:18:57,119 and I still haven't heard back from him. 336 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:58,799 Speaker 5: So wow. 337 00:18:59,519 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 7: So I think, I don't want to say they play 338 00:19:02,039 --> 00:19:06,279 their little games, but they know that if they contact 339 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:11,240 us for any little information or give any inclination that 340 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,160 they're investigating, then it's no longer a cold case. 341 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 5: It's an open case. 342 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,599 Speaker 7: And they can't provide me with my case files or 343 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,359 any case files. So it's really frustrating. I just feel 344 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,279 like I get that run around all the time with it. 345 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,640 I really have not had any besides back in November 346 00:19:32,759 --> 00:19:38,000 October November, I really have not had any single conversation 347 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:42,400 with any of them in probably twenty years now. My 348 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,920 case was in the Cold Case Unit. It was on 349 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,160 the Cold Case Unit website, but I go now, you 350 00:19:48,279 --> 00:19:51,920 go on there and I'm removed with no explanation, so 351 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,119 it's okay, why am I no longer on this code 352 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:59,000 case website? And I never could get an answer to that, So. 353 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 5: I don't know it. 354 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 4: Definitely, it does feel like that's a game that law 355 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,319 enforcement plays that Okay, you're not doing anything on the case, 356 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,319 so it's cold, right. Oh No, it's still open. That's 357 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:13,720 got to be so frustrating. I'm so sorry that's something 358 00:20:13,759 --> 00:20:14,680 you have to deal with. 359 00:20:15,279 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 5: I'm not alone. I'm not alone, but we're hoping to 360 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:18,720 change that. 361 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,799 Speaker 7: I'm assuming you don't get that changed a little, or 362 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,599 at least let the public know that this is going 363 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,480 on there. This is happening to victims and victims families, 364 00:20:30,519 --> 00:20:33,119 and it's wrong and it needs to change. 365 00:20:33,799 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: I'm assuming you don't still have your classic Pontiac Firebird. 366 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,599 Speaker 5: Oh don't. I had it. 367 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 7: I did own it for probably four or five years 368 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,559 after my attack. I loved that car, but no, we 369 00:20:46,759 --> 00:20:52,880 ended up, she died. I had to get rid of it. 370 00:20:53,039 --> 00:20:55,880 Plus I was having my second child, so it was 371 00:20:56,039 --> 00:20:58,559 not the most convenient car with car seats. 372 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 2: No, it's not really set up for our ses. You're 373 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,160 listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after 374 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:16,920 this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. 375 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 4: Jen, there are eight victims that have been identified in 376 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,240 the Connecticut River Valley case. Do you think in all 377 00:21:25,279 --> 00:21:27,960 of the investigative work that you guys have done, do 378 00:21:28,039 --> 00:21:30,240 you think that there may be more victims? Is that 379 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,279 something that you're actively looking into and Is that something 380 00:21:33,279 --> 00:21:35,880 you're going to be soliciting the public for in terms 381 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:36,880 of tips and information. 382 00:21:37,599 --> 00:21:37,759 Speaker 5: Oh? 383 00:21:37,839 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely. We knew starting this project that there are 384 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:45,319 probably more than eight women, maybe a man or two 385 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,559 potentially that have been connected or at least really in 386 00:21:48,599 --> 00:21:51,960 the same area. We are looking at a couple in Maine, 387 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,640 one in Massachusetts. And this has come to my attention 388 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,279 through work with one of the original criminal profilers on 389 00:21:59,319 --> 00:22:02,279 these cases. His name is doctor John philpin who Jane 390 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,640 has a lovely relationship with as well. This is like 391 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,000 his bottom drawer case. He's an older guy. He lives 392 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,720 in Vermont, in the woods somewhere, and he's been steadily 393 00:22:14,759 --> 00:22:19,119 building other cases that he thinks are connected. So via 394 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,119 the Avenue, he's given me names and I've looked into them. 395 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,960 So I think if we get greenlit for a second season, 396 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,759 we're going to explore those in depth. 397 00:22:27,319 --> 00:22:31,079 Speaker 2: Did doctor Philpinen work on this case for one of 398 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,200 the agencies back in the day? 399 00:22:33,799 --> 00:22:34,279 Speaker 5: He did. 400 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 6: Yeah, he was hired by Vermont, I believe, but during 401 00:22:38,039 --> 00:22:41,759 the time of the task force between New Hampshire and Vermont, 402 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:47,000 so he came on pretty early on in that task force. 403 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,240 And then Jane do you want to talk about what 404 00:22:49,319 --> 00:22:49,960 he did for you. 405 00:22:50,839 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 7: Yeah, I met him very shortly after my attack. The 406 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,440 State Police in New Hampshire brought me up to his 407 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,599 office to be hypnotized, do a hypnosis session to try 408 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,279 to see if I could get any more information about him, 409 00:23:07,519 --> 00:23:11,359 a better description and a license plate number. So yeah, 410 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,960 I met with him in wonderful man, very intriguing, and 411 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,640 throughout the years we've reconnected quite a few times. I 412 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,720 can call him anytime I need and he's always there. 413 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,279 We have a very special relationship. 414 00:23:24,799 --> 00:23:27,799 Speaker 2: He sounds amazing. So now this is a bright spot. 415 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,079 We've been talking for several minutes about the frustration that 416 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,200 you've found and now Jen, I think shares this getting 417 00:23:35,279 --> 00:23:38,480 so little traction with the New Hampshire State Police and 418 00:23:38,519 --> 00:23:41,319 their lack of follow up. But then doctor Philbin, although 419 00:23:41,319 --> 00:23:45,319 it is not necessarily actively working the case for a 420 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,000 police agency at this moment, is someone who's knowledgeable about 421 00:23:49,039 --> 00:23:51,640 your case, who actually is happy to hear from you. 422 00:23:52,039 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 7: Yes, But then I'm not sure about Vermont. But over 423 00:23:57,759 --> 00:24:00,759 the years, New Hampshire is pretty much shut him out too. 424 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,160 He has offered to give some more information, He's offered 425 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,440 to share some old files that he's had. He's offered 426 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,720 so much and they've shut him out as far as 427 00:24:12,759 --> 00:24:16,079 they're concerned. He's retired, so he shouldn't have anything to 428 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,200 do with it anymore. There's so much knowledge there that 429 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,640 they're just throwing away. It's so sad, so sad, because 430 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,279 John was very involved with all the cases. He did 431 00:24:27,319 --> 00:24:30,039 a lot of investigative work, and for he doesn't like 432 00:24:30,079 --> 00:24:33,039 to wear a criminal profiler, but he was an amazing 433 00:24:33,079 --> 00:24:37,480 criminal profiler and he profiled, He went and profiled all 434 00:24:37,519 --> 00:24:40,559 these victims in the all the cases, and he has 435 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,960 an enormous amount of information. You would think over the 436 00:24:46,079 --> 00:24:50,119 years and new eyes and new people coming into the 437 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,440 law enforcement, you would think they would want to talk 438 00:24:53,519 --> 00:24:56,920 to him and see what his opinions are and see 439 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,200 where he thinks. 440 00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 5: That they should go with the case. 441 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,599 Speaker 7: New people have come in year after year, and like 442 00:25:02,839 --> 00:25:06,359 Linda Moore's case, right off the bat, they thought it 443 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:11,400 was her husband Steve. Now Steve has cleared himself so 444 00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:16,160 many times, rock solid alibi. He is over the years, 445 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,880 past three polygraph tests, he has just cleared himself so 446 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,559 many times. And doctor John Philbin's they just keep coming 447 00:25:24,599 --> 00:25:28,319 back to him and reinvestigating him in such a waste 448 00:25:28,319 --> 00:25:29,559 of resource and time. 449 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 4: As I was doing some initial research about the case 450 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,640 in preparation for our episode today, one name which is 451 00:25:38,799 --> 00:25:41,680 familiar to both Bill and I because it has come 452 00:25:41,759 --> 00:25:45,160 up in our cases as well, kept popping out. Jen, 453 00:25:45,319 --> 00:25:48,359 Can you talk about the Michael Nicolau of it all 454 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,440 for a couple of minutes? Are you how much time 455 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,559 are you spending with him on the podcast? And also 456 00:25:54,559 --> 00:25:56,960 can you explain to anybody who isn't aware who is 457 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,359 Michael Nicolau and why does he keep coming up over 458 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:00,960 and over again this investigation. 459 00:26:01,519 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 6: Yes, I'm happy to address the Michael Nicolau question. So, 460 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,119 this was a suspect that was floated a little over 461 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,880 a decade ago to Jane by this private investigator down 462 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,079 in Florida. Her name is Lynn Marie Carty, and she 463 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,000 had convinced herself that it was Michael Nikolau who was 464 00:26:20,079 --> 00:26:23,720 the Connecticut River Valley killer who attacked Jane. And she 465 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,960 had been hired in the past, I want to say 466 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,319 it was in the nineties, like early nineties. She had 467 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:35,640 been hired by Michael Nicolau's first wife, Michelle Nicolau, because 468 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,519 she disappeared at the Massachusetts. He took off with their 469 00:26:39,559 --> 00:26:42,920 two kids down to Florida, and then the PI Lynn 470 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,319 Marie Carty was hired to try and track down Michelle 471 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,039 and her kids. She ended up finding Michael Nikolau spoke 472 00:26:50,079 --> 00:26:52,680 to him on the phone, according to her, and he 473 00:26:53,319 --> 00:26:55,039 said that he didn't know what happened to his wife. 474 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,440 She ran off that sort of thing. Fast forward a 475 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,960 couple of years later, Michael nicolel Is remarried to another 476 00:27:01,039 --> 00:27:04,039 woman down in Florida. He shows up to her house 477 00:27:04,079 --> 00:27:06,079 on New yer Zy with a guitar case full of 478 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:11,400 guns and kills his second wife, his stepdaughter, and himself. 479 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,079 And after this happened, lenn Marie Cartier was like, what 480 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:16,759 other murders can I connect him to? 481 00:27:17,079 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 5: And that's what. 482 00:27:17,759 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 6: Led her to google murders in New England and that's 483 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,680 how she came across Jane's story and then she got 484 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,599 in contact with you, Jane. 485 00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:38,319 Speaker 4: He sure did, And how did that go, Jane? Or 486 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,720 is this something we need to listen to the podcast for? 487 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,839 Speaker 5: I trusted her at first. She was probably. 488 00:27:46,799 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 7: She had so much information, enormous amount of information, more 489 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,680 than anybody else I had ever talked to and at 490 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,240 that time, my case had gone really cold. I wasn't 491 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,359 getting any responses or calls from the authorities, and she 492 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:11,680 just came in and she was she had a lot 493 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:17,359 of credible sounding information. But and this was the first 494 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:23,119 time I've really heard some real good, credible information, so 495 00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:28,039 I thought, And so it just sucked me in. And 496 00:28:30,079 --> 00:28:33,359 this was not even days, weeks or months, this was 497 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,160 a few years. Over the course of a few years, 498 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,799 she really convinced me that, oh, can't be anybody else, 499 00:28:41,839 --> 00:28:45,839 but Michael mcclough can't be nobody else fits. This is 500 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,559 the only person it could be. And she just kind 501 00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:52,160 of made him fit into every single little scenario. 502 00:28:52,599 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 5: And I was hopeful. 503 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 7: I wanted answers, and so I went along for the ridewear. 504 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,119 Then I started questioning things, some of the things that 505 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,759 she was coming up with, and then I was noticing 506 00:29:05,839 --> 00:29:11,000 that she was very much about media. And then it 507 00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:14,000 was like the media just got more and more. And 508 00:29:14,039 --> 00:29:17,519 then I saw an agenda in her because then she 509 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,759 was talking about a lifetime movie. 510 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 5: She was talking about a book. 511 00:29:21,759 --> 00:29:25,559 Speaker 7: But these lifetime movies in this book was not going 512 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,720 to be generating me any kind of I wasn't going 513 00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:29,960 to see anything out of it. 514 00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 5: These were her projects. 515 00:29:32,319 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 7: I started questioning a lot of stuff and started really 516 00:29:36,519 --> 00:29:39,680 standing back and looking at everything as a whole with 517 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,640 an open mind. And as soon as I started questioning 518 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,359 her about certain things, she got defensive and she got 519 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,400 really angry, and we ended up parting ways. It's unfortunate 520 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,079 that Michael Nikolau's name is out there so much. 521 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 5: I hate it. 522 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,559 Speaker 7: You know, she had me in a very vulnerable spot, 523 00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:03,119 and it was feeding me all this stuff. If you 524 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,680 don't say it's Michael Nicolau, nobody's gonna take you seriously. 525 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,880 All the information is here, Jane, it's him, trust me. 526 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,160 But if you don't say that it's him, nobody's gonna 527 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,519 take you seriously. So she convinced me, over the course 528 00:30:16,559 --> 00:30:18,839 of a few years, to say, Okay, maybe you know 529 00:30:19,039 --> 00:30:22,400 it was Michael niklaugh. I did that reluctantly. It wasn't 530 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,960 like I immediately thought it was him, but she convinced me, 531 00:30:28,039 --> 00:30:34,079 and it's something that I regret, but I have since 532 00:30:34,599 --> 00:30:39,319 moved forward. I've explained myself about the whole situation. I 533 00:30:39,359 --> 00:30:42,319 still have people say we thought this was solved, we 534 00:30:42,519 --> 00:30:45,680 thought it was Michael Nikolau, which is so frustrating because 535 00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:49,359 these cases are still unsolved. My case is still unsolved, 536 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,240 even the information given to the authorities and stuff. It 537 00:30:53,319 --> 00:30:59,400 wasn't Michael Nikolau, it really wasn't. There's nothing forensically, there's nothing, 538 00:30:59,599 --> 00:31:03,319 no f our Prince, no DNA, nothing to connect him 539 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:09,400 to these cases. Absolutely nothing. It's just her hearsay. And 540 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,839 you know how that goes, per say, isn't always it 541 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,319 always it's not true. 542 00:31:17,079 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 5: So I hope that I explained. 543 00:31:19,039 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 7: It so you can understand the best I could. 544 00:31:24,119 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: In the odd not so coincidental department. Lynn Marie Carty 545 00:31:29,119 --> 00:31:32,039 attempted to do the same thing in the Colonial Parkway 546 00:31:32,119 --> 00:31:36,759 murders in about twenty ten. She's a very good researcher, 547 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:43,480 and she does find interesting perhaps intersections of Michael Nicolau, 548 00:31:43,839 --> 00:31:48,920 putting him at or near places where unsolved thomicides had 549 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,480 taken place. That part gets very intriguing. Where it begins 550 00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:55,599 to fall apart is she's one of these people who 551 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,720 is very selective about the information she puts forward. If 552 00:31:59,759 --> 00:32:03,279 some thing comes out that is not consistent with her 553 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,480 theory that, oh, Michael Nikolai was responsible for your sister 554 00:32:07,559 --> 00:32:11,200 Kathy Thomas's death, Rebecca Dowski's death, and the other murders 555 00:32:11,279 --> 00:32:13,880 in the Colonial Parkway murders. If something comes up that 556 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,640 doesn't fit, she finds a way to put that aside, 557 00:32:17,079 --> 00:32:21,039 and she only focuses on the things that are consistent 558 00:32:21,319 --> 00:32:24,680 with her theory. And of course I'm not an investigator, 559 00:32:24,759 --> 00:32:29,440 but we have worked with some incredible investigators, profilers, criminologists, 560 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,519 and so on. They have said, that's exactly what you 561 00:32:32,759 --> 00:32:36,880 cannot do. You want to take all of the information, good, 562 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,759 bad and indifferent, consistent with your theory or things that 563 00:32:40,839 --> 00:32:43,559 might break down your theory, because that's the only way 564 00:32:43,559 --> 00:32:46,519 you're going to figure out should this person remain on 565 00:32:46,559 --> 00:32:49,559 the short list of suspects that we regard as very 566 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,440 viable or should they be put on the less viable list. 567 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,160 We continue to move on if you're able to eliminate 568 00:32:57,559 --> 00:33:01,200 people that actually has value as well. So if Nikolau's 569 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,359 not the right offender, then you know you're still looking. 570 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,119 Exactly what Lynn Marie does is that she's very much 571 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,599 out for herself. She and I do get out on 572 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,839 the Colonial Parkway murders. I remember walking through an airport 573 00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:18,079 at one point, I was on a business trip and 574 00:33:18,119 --> 00:33:19,640 I was on the phone with her. I was changing 575 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,000 planes and I had some time, and I remember arguing 576 00:33:22,039 --> 00:33:24,960 with her, and I said, Lin Marie, focus on what 577 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,720 you can prove and stop trying to connect Michael nickelout 578 00:33:30,119 --> 00:33:34,119 to every murder on the East Coast from the Lindbergh 579 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,839 baby on forward. She'd keep finding another murder or a 580 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,720 group of murders, and look, there are two hundred and 581 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,680 fifty thousand cold case homicides in the United States. There's 582 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,480 plenty of murders to go around. She'd say, Oh, I 583 00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:48,920 just found a murderer in North Carolina. He's responsible for that, 584 00:33:49,119 --> 00:33:53,359 And there'd be enough basic information that she'd say, oh, 585 00:33:53,359 --> 00:33:56,119 he was there at that time. Now, the weird thing 586 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,200 is she was able to put his wife having a 587 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,319 baby in Virginia, an hour away from where the Colonial 588 00:34:03,359 --> 00:34:06,920 Parkway murders took place in nineteen eighty six. So that 589 00:34:07,079 --> 00:34:11,440 was an interesting idea and probably worth exploring. But then 590 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,679 she would put aside anything that didn't line up with 591 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,920 her theory of the case, and she actually had him 592 00:34:18,039 --> 00:34:20,000 killing everyone from Maine to Florida. 593 00:34:20,079 --> 00:34:25,079 Speaker 7: It was crazy in Texas, In Texas and Texas too, Yeah, 594 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:25,960 Texas too. 595 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 2: And one of the things I found was when I 596 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,880 reached out to people in law enforcement who she referred 597 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,199 me to, they didn't even want to talk to me 598 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,440 because I was coming in and saying, Lynn Marie CARTI 599 00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:40,159 suggested that I reach out to you, and they were like, 600 00:34:40,559 --> 00:34:45,199 oh please. You could tell they weren't taking her seriously 601 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,559 as an investigator because of these things that she was doing, 602 00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:51,400 and she was clearly. She told me she wanted her 603 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,760 own television series, she wanted a movie about her, and 604 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,679 I was thinking, how does this help the victims of 605 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,639 the Colonial Parkway murder? You doing a television show about 606 00:35:02,639 --> 00:35:05,079 how fabulous you are? What the heck does that have 607 00:35:05,159 --> 00:35:06,760 to do with solving these cases? 608 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,760 Speaker 7: Oh, it's so true. Totally agree with everything, and yeah, 609 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,039 that's exactly what she did. That's why when I questioned 610 00:35:15,079 --> 00:35:18,760 something that didn't fit, oh, she would get so defensive, 611 00:35:19,519 --> 00:35:23,440 so defensive. It's too bad. It's too bad that his 612 00:35:23,559 --> 00:35:26,599 name is so much out there. When she started to 613 00:35:26,599 --> 00:35:29,719 get involved with his son, I really wanted her to 614 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,840 get his son some help, And as soon as I 615 00:35:33,039 --> 00:35:36,280 started talking about that, she was just all about the 616 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,119 media with Nick. And unfortunately Nick never got the help, 617 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,000 and he's no longer with us, and it's sad. 618 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,119 Speaker 5: The whole thing is sad. 619 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 4: Jan As the first season of Dark Valley unfolds, how 620 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,119 are you all going about highlighting the various suspects well, 621 00:35:53,159 --> 00:35:56,000 also of course keeping your main focus on the victims 622 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,000 and their stories. How are you arranging the podcast so 623 00:35:59,039 --> 00:36:01,400 that you can spend time on both things? 624 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,519 Speaker 6: I would say the first season is front loaded with 625 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,599 stories about these women, what their lives were, where they 626 00:36:09,639 --> 00:36:12,239 went in town, with the people they knew. We get 627 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,920 to hear from their friends, their family, their colleagues, all 628 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,880 sorts of things, and then interwoven in there is a 629 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,679 couple of the suspects that came up early on in 630 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,800 the investigation, so we do touch on those, if only 631 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,559 to put them to bed. Like, we can't be definitive 632 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,039 about each person that comes up, but we can definitely 633 00:36:31,559 --> 00:36:34,679 explore the reasons why they might be a good person 634 00:36:34,679 --> 00:36:37,480 of interest and definitely why they might not. And then 635 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,920 I'd say, after we go through Jane's story, the eight 636 00:36:42,079 --> 00:36:45,559 other women's stories, then we come out the other end, 637 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,920 which comes up into kind of a real time investigation 638 00:36:49,199 --> 00:36:53,239 where I posit a theory about two brothers who lived 639 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,800 in the town of Claremont who are connected to another 640 00:36:56,119 --> 00:36:59,760 famous missing person's case in New Hampshire. And then we 641 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,719 have of a surprise person of interest that comes up 642 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,440 at the end that I think will probably break some 643 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:06,440 people's brains. 644 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 4: Ooh, now I'm intrigued. 645 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 2: Now, at the time we record this, you've had how 646 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,400 many episodes have appeared on your free subscription? 647 00:37:18,159 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 6: There are two public episodes available, there are seven behind 648 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,239 a subscription which will then become public. And there are 649 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,920 twelve episodes in title that will all. 650 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 2: Be Blick and this will all be part of the 651 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:32,480 first season. 652 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,599 Speaker 5: Correct. Yeah. 653 00:37:34,679 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 4: And then a wonderful little piece of synchronicity. I opened 654 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,559 up an email from crime Con this morning and there's 655 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,440 Dark Valley, Jen and Jane, and I was like, oh 656 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,079 my god, we're interviewing these amazing women today. Tell us 657 00:37:47,119 --> 00:37:48,719 what's going on with crime Con. 658 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 6: Oh my goodness. Yeah, this all came about pretty quickly. 659 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:57,760 They were very kind John Jane doesn't even know so 660 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,840 Kevin and Elsa, the two people will run crime We're 661 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,880 kind enough to blast out our live virtual show, which 662 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,039 is happening this Thursday, eight pm on the crawl Space 663 00:38:07,159 --> 00:38:10,159 YouTube channel. Jane will be there, I will be there 664 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,280 to min Lance will be there, and we're going to 665 00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:15,159 discuss behind the scenes of the show. I'm sure people 666 00:38:15,159 --> 00:38:17,760 have a lot of questions for you, Jane. And then 667 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,840 we were just invited to crime Conay. 668 00:38:21,039 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 2: We're looking forward to seeing you down there as Orlando selfish, 669 00:38:28,119 --> 00:38:31,239 So will you do a presentation at crime Con in 670 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,800 September on Dark Valley and telling everybody what's going on 671 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,639 with the victims, the case, the show. 672 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,639 Speaker 6: That's the plan. The details have not been hammered out, 673 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,199 so I don't want to like misspeak or anything, but yeah, 674 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,400 that's the plan. We're going to be I think there's 675 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,199 like a podcast row stage. 676 00:38:50,039 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, the show stage. 677 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:51,639 Speaker 5: Yeah. 678 00:38:52,039 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, that was really cool last area. 679 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what we're shooting for. 680 00:38:58,039 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 2: I like it. This is very exciting. 681 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:02,679 Speaker 4: Yeah. 682 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 5: Are you excited, Jane, Yes, I am. 683 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,119 Speaker 4: It can be a lot, No, it can be a lot. 684 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,079 Speaker 5: I say, I am excited. This would be my first 685 00:39:13,119 --> 00:39:13,639 crime con. 686 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 4: Oh, it's great, You're gonna love it. It's a lot 687 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:16,840 of fun. 688 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 7: We did to crime Fest a couple of weeks ago 689 00:39:19,519 --> 00:39:22,840 and that was awesome, and so yeah, I'm pretty excited 690 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:23,599 about going. 691 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 2: There, people have to be excited to meet you. And 692 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,199 you are an amazing person and a survivor, and you 693 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,760 have a very compelling story to tell. And I know 694 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,239 you've said on the podcast and other interviews that you 695 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,119 feel that as a survivor you want to make sure 696 00:39:39,199 --> 00:39:42,719 that the victim's story is told. So I have a 697 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,079 feeling people must respond to you in a very warm 698 00:39:46,119 --> 00:39:47,199 and supportive way. 699 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,800 Speaker 7: There's been so many people that have approached me, and 700 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,719 they've all been so nice and caring, and it's been 701 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,239 awesome talking. I've met so many different people. It has 702 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,639 been awesome. I'm glad that I'm able to tell my story. 703 00:40:00,679 --> 00:40:03,280 I'm grateful every day that I get to wake up 704 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,400 and I get to tell my story because the others 705 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,159 don't have a voice. And just being able to meet 706 00:40:09,679 --> 00:40:13,519 so many different people, that's been awesome. And being on 707 00:40:13,559 --> 00:40:18,239 this journey with Jenn and crossbas Media, it's just it's 708 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:18,880 been awesome. 709 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,639 Speaker 6: I just want to jump in really quickly, like short 710 00:40:21,679 --> 00:40:25,840 of what happened to Jane almost forty years ago. While interesting, 711 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,519 Jane is a magnetic person, like people just want to 712 00:40:29,559 --> 00:40:33,840 talk to you otherwise. She's so warm, she's so kind, 713 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,800 she's so quick to laugh, she's so funny, like people 714 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,719 are just gravitated towards you, Jane. So I think being 715 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,679 in this place and in this time, telling your story, 716 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,000 telling what happened to you, being an advocate for the 717 00:40:46,039 --> 00:40:50,199 other women's cases, trying to change what happens in law enforcement, 718 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,320 it's all in line with just who you are as 719 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:52,800 a person. 720 00:40:54,119 --> 00:40:59,639 Speaker 5: Oh, thank you, thank you. Oh you made me blush. 721 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,360 Speaker 4: Go ahead and give our listeners information on where they 722 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,760 can find Dark Valley, both the public version and the 723 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:06,880 subscription version. 724 00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 6: You can find Dark Valley wherever you listen to podcasts, Apple, Spotify, 725 00:41:12,039 --> 00:41:14,960 et cetera. We do have an Apple subscription where you 726 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,880 can listen to the first seven episodes. I'm going to 727 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,639 take a little interim break and then we'll be back 728 00:41:20,679 --> 00:41:23,119 again with the rest of the twelve episodes, but all 729 00:41:23,159 --> 00:41:25,079 of those will be public throughout the summer. 730 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,599 Speaker 4: Fantastic. The podcast is Dark Valley. Thank you, Jen, Thank you, Jane. 731 00:41:30,639 --> 00:41:33,239 We are so looking forward to seeing you at Crime 732 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,119 Con in September US two. 733 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:36,119 Speaker 6: Thank you so much. 734 00:41:36,519 --> 00:41:37,039 Speaker 5: Thank you. 735 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,559 Speaker 4: That's going to do it for this episode of Mind 736 00:41:39,559 --> 00:41:42,760 over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see 737 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:43,400 you next time. 738 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 739 00:41:56,559 --> 00:41:58,000 Another Dog Productions. 740 00:41:58,559 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 2: Our executive producers Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 741 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,679 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 742 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 743 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,800 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 744 00:42:12,599 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 745 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,519 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 746 00:42:18,599 --> 00:42:20,360 Murders on Facebook. 747 00:42:20,199 --> 00:42:23,239 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 748 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:24,880 Bill Thomas. Five six. 749 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.