Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the
social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway
Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas, and we're.
Speaker 4: Joined today by podcaster Jennifer Ammel and Badass survivor Jane
Barowski here to talk to us about the Dark Valley podcast.
Jane and Jen, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 5: Hi, thank you, glad to be here.
Speaker 6: Hey, yeah, pleasure to be here. Thanks for having us.
Speaker 4: So, before we get into the new podcast, Dark Valley,
go ahead and start by telling us a little bit
about yourselves. Jen, I'll start with you, and then Jane
jump on and tell us a little bit about yourselves professionally, educationally,
that sort of thing. Cool.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I am a college dropout, but I do have
a background in journalism and documentary filmmaking which led me
here to podcasting.
Speaker 4: Excellent, Jane, how about you.
Speaker 7: I'm a mom, a wife, a grandma and do some
podcasting on the side. And I'm an advocate. I want
to get that out there. I am a victim advocate too.
Speaker 4: Talk to us a little bit about Dark Valley. What
is this podcast about primarily? And how did you get
the idea? How did the two of you meet and
start this podcast partnership?
Speaker 6: Jane, do you want me to take the elevator pitch please?
Dark Valley is a new investigative series from my company,
Cross Space Media and our partners at Glassbox Media, and
it is about the unsolved cases of the Connecticut River
Valley killer up in New England. We're investigating eight murders
and one attack. There's one survivor of the serial killer
and she's speaking with us right now.
Speaker 2: And so, Jane, how did you and Jen originally meet?
What's the connection that created this new partnership.
Speaker 7: Jen and Cross Space Media contacted me and they wanted
to start this project with Dark Valley. It was a
coincidence because at the same time, I was just getting
ready to create Invisible Tears, my own podcast. We ended
up meeting up and I was really interested in whish
want to go with the Dark Valley and why she
wanted to do it. We just got together and started
talking and here we are.
Speaker 2: And so were your initial meetings face to face or
over the web like we're doing now.
Speaker 6: We initially I initially called you, right Jane after a
brief message on Facebook, and I had heard Jane's story
and I was like, there's no way she's going to
respond to me. There's no way. And then she was like, Okay,
I'll hear you out. Let's have a phone call. The
timing was serendipitous, as you touched on, Jane, Yeah, it's
been almost three years that we've been in production.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Crazy.
Speaker 7: And then Jen Timdley, it's with Crowdspace, came to our
hometown and we did some videotaping and some audio and
just went from there. But I think the project wasn't
exactly what Jenna had pictured at first, and we went
a different direction and it was a great meeting. I
had been approached by some other people about doing my
story and interest in different things about my story, and
I hadn't always had the best relationship with these people.
I felt like they all had an agenda.
Speaker 5: When I met.
Speaker 7: Jenna and Crowdspace, it was I felt like they were
the perfect people to do this story, to do Dark
Valley and the Connecticut River Valley cases, talk about them
and talk about the victims, and they were just a
perfect fit for it. We just we have hit it
off since it's been awesome. It's been a great ride.
It's been very interesting. I did warn her right off
the bat, but she was like, I want to find
answers for you and the families. And I said, you're
going to have By the end, you're going to have
more questions and answers. I guarantee it, and she's pretty
much has happened.
Speaker 4: Before we get too terribly much further in talking about
the big issues, let's actually have the s two of
you walk us through the basics of the Connecticut River
Valley case. Jenna, I'll start with you, and then you
and Jane can bounce it back and forth. Tell us
a little bit about the Connecticut River Valley Killer.
Speaker 6: Oh geez. I want to preface by saying, I think
Jane and I were aligned in our mission and our
values in telling these stories because we didn't want to
put so much focus on who this man was who
killed these women, and really wanted to approach it inversely
the other way around, by learning more about the other
women who were murdered. And of course, like I was
interested in Jane's life and what happened to her after
her attack, Like she lived thirty six years after this,
what's that story too. That said, we have been able
to glean a couple things about who this killer is.
The cases are a little confusing because we don't know
if all of them are actually connected. There's no like
piece of DNA that links each case or anything. We
do look at certain patterns that develop in each case.
I think the Valley Killer is marked by they were
all stabbing victims. All the women were probably victims of
opportunity out in the world, hitchhiking, talking on payphones, that
sort of thing, abducted, taken elsewhere, and stabbed in a
V shape pattern. That's their upper chest and abdomen, usually
the ones that we can tell their throats were cut
as well. Jane, do you want to talk about Does
any of that match up with your case?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 7: Yeah, exactly. I was stabbed multiple times. When he approached me,
he wanted me to go with him, so I was
very adamant that I wouldn't go with him, Thank god,
because I probably wouldn't be here speaking with you people today.
He stabbed me multiple times, mostly a lot in the chest,
and left me for dead.
Speaker 5: I was a victim of opportunity. It was at night.
Speaker 7: I was in a parking lot at a closed door
getting a soda out of a soda machine. There was
also a payphone there, and there was a couple of
the other girls that there was a phone where they
were at. So the similarities there are several similarities to
all the cases, including my own.
Speaker 2: It's probably worth mentioning at this point that the core
cases that we believe may be part of the Connecticut
River Valley killings stretched from about nineteen seventy eight to
nineteen eighty eight, and it's probably worth mentioning, especially for
our younger listeners. We're talking about a situation where there
are no cell phones. If you want to make a
phone call, you're either at home, at work, or you're
using a payphone. Those are the options. For instance, my
son Chris, who's twenty five, now, I'm not sure that he,
as a young man, has ever even used a payphone.
I think he's seen one, but I'm not sure that
for our younger listeners, they quite get the fact that
if you wanted to reach someone, it was home, work,
or a payphone, or maybe a friend's house. The evening
that you stopped on the way home from a fair,
as I recall Jane, you're at a place where the
convenience store is closed, but you know that there's a
vending machine there and you can grab a cold drink.
And that's also a place where there's a payphone. So
someone pulling in even to a closed store is not
that unusual because of the payphone location.
Speaker 5: Correct, Oh, exactly.
Speaker 7: And this was a very small town and in the
eighties it had virtually no major crime there, so it
was a safe community. And don't forget because there was
no social media either. I was unaware of the other
cases in the Hampshire. I had no reason to even
be any sort of terrified to stop or nervous to
stop or hesitant. I felt safe. It was a safe community.
I had no reason not to feel safe.
Speaker 4: So when did you find out that you're attack was
potentially a part of a much larger series of killings.
When did you find that out?
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 7: After my attack, when I was in the hospital, I
was all over the news my attack. News stations were
all in front of the hospital. I was in all
the newspapers, and my family protected me from all that.
I really didn't know exactly what was going on outside
the hospital. And then one day I had mentioned to
my mother something about the news outside the hospital, and
she was like, Oh, you're all over the news. You're
all over the newspapers. She gave me a newspaper and
I started reading it, and there's all the other victims'
names in the newspaper. And then they like, this may
be another victim of the Connecticut River Valley serial killer.
So that was like crazy reading it in the paper.
I'm like, oh my god, okay, one, I'm all over
the news my name. So if he wants he knows
that I'm alive, he knows that I survived too. If
he wants to find me, he knows what my name is.
And three, I'm the only survivor and I can identify him.
It was just layer over layer of really information that
I was reading that was just horrifying to me.
Speaker 2: On top of everything else. You're also an expectant mother.
Had you had your daughter by the time you got
out of the hospital.
Speaker 5: I had not.
Speaker 7: I still carried her for another two months after my attack,
so I went full term with her.
Speaker 5: Yeah, back then.
Speaker 7: The difference between now and that's so different because, like then,
they put all the victims' names all over the news
and in the newspaper.
Speaker 5: Today they don't do that. Thank god.
Speaker 7: I'm so thankful that they don't do that for safety
of victims today. The only time that there's really a
victim's name is when somebody has been charged or the
person that did the harm is no longer there. It's
nice to see that they don't do that anymore. It's
layered protection for victims that survive even now.
Speaker 2: In sexual assault cases, sometimes the victim's name is not
given as it moves through the courts. The suspect was identified,
but the victim sometimes is not. She may be given
a pseudonym or just referred to by a number or
something else. We're more sensitive, I think, to victims' rights
and respecting individuals privacy than we might have been back then.
Speaker 4: Exactly, Jen, as a journalist, what is your main goal
for Dark Valley? Clearly it's to get out the story
of the Connecticut River Valley killings and the victims. But
what other goals do you have in mind? What do
you hope will ultimately come up this podcast?
Speaker 6: Thank you, Yeah, great question. As we touched on before,
the primary goal with this is a resurrection story. We
want to know these women's lives as much as their deaths.
We want to know what Jane's life is like. But
of course the great hope with any kind of in
depth investigative project is to move the needle in these cases.
We want law enforcement to listen. We want them to
reopen investigations. We want them to contact Jane Burrowski and
have a conversation with her, and we hope to elicit
tips too. The public has power absolutely.
Speaker 2: What level of cooperation have you gotten from law enforcement?
There's at least two states that are part of this.
These cases took place in New Hampshire and in Vermont.
What kind of cooperation. If any do you get from
law enforcement.
Speaker 6: In terms of production or in terms of Jane's personal
relationship with law enforcement.
Speaker 2: I would say both.
Speaker 6: Nothing and either wow.
Speaker 4: I don't think we're surprised, but wow.
Speaker 7: Back in the eighties, after a few of the bodies
were found, they did form a task force between Knee,
Amsure and Vermont and that went on for I don't
know what, was it, a couple of years, Jen, Yeah,
something like that. And then the cases went cold. And
when I say they went cold, they went ice cold.
They stopped communicating with me. I even think that the
Amshire and Vermont stopped communicating with each other. People still
they still come with information, new tips. Everybody wants to
solve everything. Now true crime is huge, and when somebody
hears a story, they want to solve it. And I've
had people literally come and knock on my door several
It still happens. I just had some last year. It
still happens. They come and knock on my door and say,
I have credible information. I've given it to the authorities,
and then I don't feel like they're doing anything with it.
I want to give you the information. I can't do
anything with this information, there's nothing that I.
Speaker 5: Can do with it.
Speaker 7: You have to try to communicate with the authorities up
being conquered and they just don't get any responses. And
I call up and I don't get any responses. Jen,
how hard was it for me to even find out
where my case file was?
Speaker 5: Who's investigating my case?
Speaker 6: We still don't technically know who the lead is on
Jane's case. There's a little bit of confusing backstory to that,
but yeah, the long and short of it is that
New Hampshire is a bit different than other states. The
Attorney General will usually take the investigative lead on major crimes,
including homicide, including attempted murder in Jane's case, So I
started by reaching out to the Age of New Hampshire.
It's like basic information, what's the status of these cases?
Can you comment at all? Like really softball sort of things.
And I did speak to the former associated to General
and he said that Jane's case was not his, it
was not under the purview of the Attorney General and
I was like, what since fun. He didn't really elaborate
on what had happened in that process, but he directed
me to the municipal police where Jane's attack occurred as
well as the District Attorney of Cheshire County. Both those
agencies did not have Jane's case. And then during the
same time during the winter, like this past winter, Jang,
you got in contact with a detective with the New
Hampshire State Police who said that he had a personal
interest in your case. But then when press said he
wasn't the lead either and that it was under the
purview of the Attorney General. So we still don't really.
Speaker 2: This all sounds very circular, so you're back to thinking
it's the age. Will they not respond at all to inquiries?
Speaker 6: Well, they did initially. I think at this point I'm
not getting any further with any comments from the ag
or the State Police. Jane. Probably we'll have more luck
in the future, hopefully or another journalist perchance. New Hampshire
is like notorious for playing their cards pretty close to
the best. The party line is don't speak to the media,
and I hope that changes in the future.
Speaker 2: We find in the Colonial Parkway Murders, my sister's unsolved murder.
Kathy and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski are the first two
victims in the Colonial Parkway murders. Half of those cases
are FBI cases, and half of them are Virginia State
Police cases. Just due to jurisdictional issues, They're not good
about sharing information. They refuse to speak to the media.
We've had dozens, if not hundreds of inquiries, and for
the most part, all they'll say is the same thing.
I could pretty much write word for word what they're
going to say. It's an open case. We continue to investigate.
When we have something to say, we'll have something to say.
It's the same old and even them getting back to
the families is often incredibly difficult. I've certainly called them
out on this. They returned my calls now, but I
had to insist, even in impolite ways, that my phone
calls would be returned because I said, I'm going to
call you guys out publicly. In Kathy's case, Kathy and
Becky are handled by the FBI, so I deal with
the FBI, which is a challenge in and of itself.
I had hoped that you were getting a little bit
more cooperation from the New Hampshire State Police.
Speaker 4: Jane. You don't even know if they're considering your case
an open case. Oh, I can tell there's a story.
Speaker 7: I mean with Jen's help, I seb many paperwork to
get access to my case file. And that's when all
of a sudden, out of the blue, I had talked
to this state police trooper and as long as I
talked to him for two seconds, and he tells me
that he's investigating my case, it's considered an open case,
and therefore I don't have access to my files, my
case files, and that's all they have to do. Jennet
emailed him and he was supposed to email me back
and we were supposed to meet up back in November
December somewhere around there, and I haven't heard back from him.
Jen had received an email from him, and he did
put a little snippet in there. I oh, Jane a
phone call. I'm still waiting for that phone call.
Speaker 2: And later, Yeah, I'll give.
Speaker 7: You another example. They called me about three years ago. Instead,
we lifted prints off your car fingerprints. We would like
you to come back in to get refingerprinted. We think
we have a set that is unidentified by anybody else
that had been fingerprinted.
Speaker 5: And I see it. Tell me when and where.
Speaker 7: The state trooper said, I'll call you in a in
about a week or two we'll schedule something and then
we'll have you come in. That was three years ago
and I still haven't heard back from him.
Speaker 5: So wow.
Speaker 7: So I think, I don't want to say they play
their little games, but they know that if they contact
us for any little information or give any inclination that
they're investigating, then it's no longer a cold case.
Speaker 5: It's an open case.
Speaker 7: And they can't provide me with my case files or
any case files. So it's really frustrating. I just feel
like I get that run around all the time with it.
I really have not had any besides back in November
October November, I really have not had any single conversation
with any of them in probably twenty years now. My
case was in the Cold Case Unit. It was on
the Cold Case Unit website, but I go now, you
go on there and I'm removed with no explanation, so
it's okay, why am I no longer on this code
case website? And I never could get an answer to that, So.
Speaker 5: I don't know it.
Speaker 4: Definitely, it does feel like that's a game that law
enforcement plays that Okay, you're not doing anything on the case,
so it's cold, right. Oh No, it's still open. That's
got to be so frustrating. I'm so sorry that's something
you have to deal with.
Speaker 5: I'm not alone. I'm not alone, but we're hoping to
change that.
Speaker 7: I'm assuming you don't get that changed a little, or
at least let the public know that this is going
on there. This is happening to victims and victims families,
and it's wrong and it needs to change.
Speaker 2: I'm assuming you don't still have your classic Pontiac Firebird.
Speaker 5: Oh don't. I had it.
Speaker 7: I did own it for probably four or five years
after my attack. I loved that car, but no, we
ended up, she died. I had to get rid of it.
Plus I was having my second child, so it was
not the most convenient car with car seats.
Speaker 2: No, it's not really set up for our ses. You're
listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after
this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder.
Speaker 4: Jen, there are eight victims that have been identified in
the Connecticut River Valley case. Do you think in all
of the investigative work that you guys have done, do
you think that there may be more victims? Is that
something that you're actively looking into and Is that something
you're going to be soliciting the public for in terms
of tips and information.
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely. We knew starting this project that there are
probably more than eight women, maybe a man or two
potentially that have been connected or at least really in
the same area. We are looking at a couple in Maine,
one in Massachusetts. And this has come to my attention
through work with one of the original criminal profilers on
these cases. His name is doctor John philpin who Jane
has a lovely relationship with as well. This is like
his bottom drawer case. He's an older guy. He lives
in Vermont, in the woods somewhere, and he's been steadily
building other cases that he thinks are connected. So via
the Avenue, he's given me names and I've looked into them.
So I think if we get greenlit for a second season,
we're going to explore those in depth.
Speaker 2: Did doctor Philpinen work on this case for one of
the agencies back in the day?
Speaker 5: He did.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he was hired by Vermont, I believe, but during
the time of the task force between New Hampshire and Vermont,
so he came on pretty early on in that task force.
And then Jane do you want to talk about what
he did for you.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I met him very shortly after my attack. The
State Police in New Hampshire brought me up to his
office to be hypnotized, do a hypnosis session to try
to see if I could get any more information about him,
a better description and a license plate number. So yeah,
I met with him in wonderful man, very intriguing, and
throughout the years we've reconnected quite a few times. I
can call him anytime I need and he's always there.
We have a very special relationship.
Speaker 2: He sounds amazing. So now this is a bright spot.
We've been talking for several minutes about the frustration that
you've found and now Jen, I think shares this getting
so little traction with the New Hampshire State Police and
their lack of follow up. But then doctor Philbin, although
it is not necessarily actively working the case for a
police agency at this moment, is someone who's knowledgeable about
your case, who actually is happy to hear from you.
Speaker 7: Yes, But then I'm not sure about Vermont. But over
the years, New Hampshire is pretty much shut him out too.
He has offered to give some more information, He's offered
to share some old files that he's had. He's offered
so much and they've shut him out as far as
they're concerned. He's retired, so he shouldn't have anything to
do with it anymore. There's so much knowledge there that
they're just throwing away. It's so sad, so sad, because
John was very involved with all the cases. He did
a lot of investigative work, and for he doesn't like
to wear a criminal profiler, but he was an amazing
criminal profiler and he profiled, He went and profiled all
these victims in the all the cases, and he has
an enormous amount of information. You would think over the
years and new eyes and new people coming into the
law enforcement, you would think they would want to talk
to him and see what his opinions are and see
where he thinks.
Speaker 5: That they should go with the case.
Speaker 7: New people have come in year after year, and like
Linda Moore's case, right off the bat, they thought it
was her husband Steve. Now Steve has cleared himself so
many times, rock solid alibi. He is over the years,
past three polygraph tests, he has just cleared himself so
many times. And doctor John Philbin's they just keep coming
back to him and reinvestigating him in such a waste
of resource and time.
Speaker 4: As I was doing some initial research about the case
in preparation for our episode today, one name which is
familiar to both Bill and I because it has come
up in our cases as well, kept popping out. Jen,
Can you talk about the Michael Nicolau of it all
for a couple of minutes? Are you how much time
are you spending with him on the podcast? And also
can you explain to anybody who isn't aware who is
Michael Nicolau and why does he keep coming up over
and over again this investigation.
Speaker 6: Yes, I'm happy to address the Michael Nicolau question. So,
this was a suspect that was floated a little over
a decade ago to Jane by this private investigator down
in Florida. Her name is Lynn Marie Carty, and she
had convinced herself that it was Michael Nikolau who was
the Connecticut River Valley killer who attacked Jane. And she
had been hired in the past, I want to say
it was in the nineties, like early nineties. She had
been hired by Michael Nicolau's first wife, Michelle Nicolau, because
she disappeared at the Massachusetts. He took off with their
two kids down to Florida, and then the PI Lynn
Marie Carty was hired to try and track down Michelle
and her kids. She ended up finding Michael Nikolau spoke
to him on the phone, according to her, and he
said that he didn't know what happened to his wife.
She ran off that sort of thing. Fast forward a
couple of years later, Michael nicolel Is remarried to another
woman down in Florida. He shows up to her house
on New yer Zy with a guitar case full of
guns and kills his second wife, his stepdaughter, and himself.
And after this happened, lenn Marie Cartier was like, what
other murders can I connect him to?
Speaker 5: And that's what.
Speaker 6: Led her to google murders in New England and that's
how she came across Jane's story and then she got
in contact with you, Jane.
Speaker 4: He sure did, And how did that go, Jane? Or
is this something we need to listen to the podcast for?
Speaker 5: I trusted her at first. She was probably.
Speaker 7: She had so much information, enormous amount of information, more
than anybody else I had ever talked to and at
that time, my case had gone really cold. I wasn't
getting any responses or calls from the authorities, and she
just came in and she was she had a lot
of credible sounding information. But and this was the first
time I've really heard some real good, credible information, so
I thought, And so it just sucked me in. And
this was not even days, weeks or months, this was
a few years. Over the course of a few years,
she really convinced me that, oh, can't be anybody else,
but Michael mcclough can't be nobody else fits. This is
the only person it could be. And she just kind
of made him fit into every single little scenario.
Speaker 5: And I was hopeful.
Speaker 7: I wanted answers, and so I went along for the ridewear.
Then I started questioning things, some of the things that
she was coming up with, and then I was noticing
that she was very much about media. And then it
was like the media just got more and more. And
then I saw an agenda in her because then she
was talking about a lifetime movie.
Speaker 5: She was talking about a book.
Speaker 7: But these lifetime movies in this book was not going
to be generating me any kind of I wasn't going
to see anything out of it.
Speaker 5: These were her projects.
Speaker 7: I started questioning a lot of stuff and started really
standing back and looking at everything as a whole with
an open mind. And as soon as I started questioning
her about certain things, she got defensive and she got
really angry, and we ended up parting ways. It's unfortunate
that Michael Nikolau's name is out there so much.
Speaker 5: I hate it.
Speaker 7: You know, she had me in a very vulnerable spot,
and it was feeding me all this stuff. If you
don't say it's Michael Nicolau, nobody's gonna take you seriously.
All the information is here, Jane, it's him, trust me.
But if you don't say that it's him, nobody's gonna
take you seriously. So she convinced me, over the course
of a few years, to say, Okay, maybe you know
it was Michael niklaugh. I did that reluctantly. It wasn't
like I immediately thought it was him, but she convinced me,
and it's something that I regret, but I have since
moved forward. I've explained myself about the whole situation. I
still have people say we thought this was solved, we
thought it was Michael Nikolau, which is so frustrating because
these cases are still unsolved. My case is still unsolved,
even the information given to the authorities and stuff. It
wasn't Michael Nikolau, it really wasn't. There's nothing forensically, there's nothing,
no f our Prince, no DNA, nothing to connect him
to these cases. Absolutely nothing. It's just her hearsay. And
you know how that goes, per say, isn't always it
always it's not true.
Speaker 5: So I hope that I explained.
Speaker 7: It so you can understand the best I could.
Speaker 2: In the odd not so coincidental department. Lynn Marie Carty
attempted to do the same thing in the Colonial Parkway
murders in about twenty ten. She's a very good researcher,
and she does find interesting perhaps intersections of Michael Nicolau,
putting him at or near places where unsolved thomicides had
taken place. That part gets very intriguing. Where it begins
to fall apart is she's one of these people who
is very selective about the information she puts forward. If
some thing comes out that is not consistent with her
theory that, oh, Michael Nikolai was responsible for your sister
Kathy Thomas's death, Rebecca Dowski's death, and the other murders
in the Colonial Parkway murders. If something comes up that
doesn't fit, she finds a way to put that aside,
and she only focuses on the things that are consistent
with her theory. And of course I'm not an investigator,
but we have worked with some incredible investigators, profilers, criminologists,
and so on. They have said, that's exactly what you
cannot do. You want to take all of the information, good,
bad and indifferent, consistent with your theory or things that
might break down your theory, because that's the only way
you're going to figure out should this person remain on
the short list of suspects that we regard as very
viable or should they be put on the less viable list.
We continue to move on if you're able to eliminate
people that actually has value as well. So if Nikolau's
not the right offender, then you know you're still looking.
Exactly what Lynn Marie does is that she's very much
out for herself. She and I do get out on
the Colonial Parkway murders. I remember walking through an airport
at one point, I was on a business trip and
I was on the phone with her. I was changing
planes and I had some time, and I remember arguing
with her, and I said, Lin Marie, focus on what
you can prove and stop trying to connect Michael nickelout
to every murder on the East Coast from the Lindbergh
baby on forward. She'd keep finding another murder or a
group of murders, and look, there are two hundred and
fifty thousand cold case homicides in the United States. There's
plenty of murders to go around. She'd say, Oh, I
just found a murderer in North Carolina. He's responsible for that,
And there'd be enough basic information that she'd say, oh,
he was there at that time. Now, the weird thing
is she was able to put his wife having a
baby in Virginia, an hour away from where the Colonial
Parkway murders took place in nineteen eighty six. So that
was an interesting idea and probably worth exploring. But then
she would put aside anything that didn't line up with
her theory of the case, and she actually had him
killing everyone from Maine to Florida.
Speaker 7: It was crazy in Texas, In Texas and Texas too, Yeah,
Texas too.
Speaker 2: And one of the things I found was when I
reached out to people in law enforcement who she referred
me to, they didn't even want to talk to me
because I was coming in and saying, Lynn Marie CARTI
suggested that I reach out to you, and they were like,
oh please. You could tell they weren't taking her seriously
as an investigator because of these things that she was doing,
and she was clearly. She told me she wanted her
own television series, she wanted a movie about her, and
I was thinking, how does this help the victims of
the Colonial Parkway murder? You doing a television show about
how fabulous you are? What the heck does that have
to do with solving these cases?
Speaker 7: Oh, it's so true. Totally agree with everything, and yeah,
that's exactly what she did. That's why when I questioned
something that didn't fit, oh, she would get so defensive,
so defensive. It's too bad. It's too bad that his
name is so much out there. When she started to
get involved with his son, I really wanted her to
get his son some help, And as soon as I
started talking about that, she was just all about the
media with Nick. And unfortunately Nick never got the help,
and he's no longer with us, and it's sad.
Speaker 5: The whole thing is sad.
Speaker 4: Jan As the first season of Dark Valley unfolds, how
are you all going about highlighting the various suspects well,
also of course keeping your main focus on the victims
and their stories. How are you arranging the podcast so
that you can spend time on both things?
Speaker 6: I would say the first season is front loaded with
stories about these women, what their lives were, where they
went in town, with the people they knew. We get
to hear from their friends, their family, their colleagues, all
sorts of things, and then interwoven in there is a
couple of the suspects that came up early on in
the investigation, so we do touch on those, if only
to put them to bed. Like, we can't be definitive
about each person that comes up, but we can definitely
explore the reasons why they might be a good person
of interest and definitely why they might not. And then
I'd say, after we go through Jane's story, the eight
other women's stories, then we come out the other end,
which comes up into kind of a real time investigation
where I posit a theory about two brothers who lived
in the town of Claremont who are connected to another
famous missing person's case in New Hampshire. And then we
have of a surprise person of interest that comes up
at the end that I think will probably break some
people's brains.
Speaker 4: Ooh, now I'm intrigued.
Speaker 2: Now, at the time we record this, you've had how
many episodes have appeared on your free subscription?
Speaker 6: There are two public episodes available, there are seven behind
a subscription which will then become public. And there are
twelve episodes in title that will all.
Speaker 2: Be Blick and this will all be part of the
first season.
Speaker 5: Correct. Yeah.
Speaker 4: And then a wonderful little piece of synchronicity. I opened
up an email from crime Con this morning and there's
Dark Valley, Jen and Jane, and I was like, oh
my god, we're interviewing these amazing women today. Tell us
what's going on with crime Con.
Speaker 6: Oh my goodness. Yeah, this all came about pretty quickly.
They were very kind John Jane doesn't even know so
Kevin and Elsa, the two people will run crime We're
kind enough to blast out our live virtual show, which
is happening this Thursday, eight pm on the crawl Space
YouTube channel. Jane will be there, I will be there
to min Lance will be there, and we're going to
discuss behind the scenes of the show. I'm sure people
have a lot of questions for you, Jane. And then
we were just invited to crime Conay.
Speaker 2: We're looking forward to seeing you down there as Orlando selfish,
So will you do a presentation at crime Con in
September on Dark Valley and telling everybody what's going on
with the victims, the case, the show.
Speaker 6: That's the plan. The details have not been hammered out,
so I don't want to like misspeak or anything, but yeah,
that's the plan. We're going to be I think there's
like a podcast row stage.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the show stage.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, that was really cool last area.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what we're shooting for.
Speaker 2: I like it. This is very exciting.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Are you excited, Jane, Yes, I am.
Speaker 4: It can be a lot, No, it can be a lot.
Speaker 5: I say, I am excited. This would be my first
crime con.
Speaker 4: Oh, it's great, You're gonna love it. It's a lot
of fun.
Speaker 7: We did to crime Fest a couple of weeks ago
and that was awesome, and so yeah, I'm pretty excited
about going.
Speaker 2: There, people have to be excited to meet you. And
you are an amazing person and a survivor, and you
have a very compelling story to tell. And I know
you've said on the podcast and other interviews that you
feel that as a survivor you want to make sure
that the victim's story is told. So I have a
feeling people must respond to you in a very warm
and supportive way.
Speaker 7: There's been so many people that have approached me, and
they've all been so nice and caring, and it's been
awesome talking. I've met so many different people. It has
been awesome. I'm glad that I'm able to tell my story.
I'm grateful every day that I get to wake up
and I get to tell my story because the others
don't have a voice. And just being able to meet
so many different people, that's been awesome. And being on
this journey with Jenn and crossbas Media, it's just it's
been awesome.
Speaker 6: I just want to jump in really quickly, like short
of what happened to Jane almost forty years ago. While interesting,
Jane is a magnetic person, like people just want to
talk to you otherwise. She's so warm, she's so kind,
she's so quick to laugh, she's so funny, like people
are just gravitated towards you, Jane. So I think being
in this place and in this time, telling your story,
telling what happened to you, being an advocate for the
other women's cases, trying to change what happens in law enforcement,
it's all in line with just who you are as
a person.
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you, thank you. Oh you made me blush.
Speaker 4: Go ahead and give our listeners information on where they
can find Dark Valley, both the public version and the
subscription version.
Speaker 6: You can find Dark Valley wherever you listen to podcasts, Apple, Spotify,
et cetera. We do have an Apple subscription where you
can listen to the first seven episodes. I'm going to
take a little interim break and then we'll be back
again with the rest of the twelve episodes, but all
of those will be public throughout the summer.
Speaker 4: Fantastic. The podcast is Dark Valley. Thank you, Jen, Thank you, Jane.
We are so looking forward to seeing you at Crime
Con in September US two.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 4: That's going to do it for this episode of Mind
over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see
you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas. Five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.