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True Murder with your host, 53 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:40.960 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 54 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:56.120 In the late hours of July twenty second, nineteen ninety one, Milwaukee, 55 00:02:56.120 --> 00:03:01.520 Wisconsin Changed Forever. Detective Patrick Kennedy would meet a man 56 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:06.120 who had altered many lives in devastating ways. Nothing could 57 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:08.879 possibly have prepared Kennedy for what he witnessed that faithful 58 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:10.599 night as he rolled out to the call of a 59 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:15.719 potential murder scene. The Milwaukee Cannibal, the Monster of Milwaukee, 60 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:18.240 as Jeffrey Dahmer would come to be known, was the 61 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:22.520 serial killer who drugged, photographs, strangled, sexually assaulted, dismembered, and 62 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:26.919 in some cases cannibalized seventeen young men during a three 63 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:31.479 year period in a small, one bedroom efficiency apartment. Dahmer 64 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:36.800 detective the interrogation investigation that shocked the world, goes inside 65 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:40.719 the police interrogation room, where Kennedy spent long days during 66 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:43.960 six chaotic weeks with Dahmer as he confessed to his 67 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:47.439 life as a serial killer, while the world's media clamored 68 00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:51.280 outside for information and confirmation the story of one of 69 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:55.599 the most notorious criminals of the twentieth century. The book 70 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:59.719 that we're featuring this evening is Dahmer Detective, The investigation 71 00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:03.599 and interrogation that shocked the world, with my special guest, 72 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:07.520 journalist and author, Robin Maharaj. Welcome to the program, and 73 00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:12.319 thank you to for ingreding this interview Robin Maharaj. Thanks Dan, 74 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:16.680 Thank you very much. Robin. This is for our audience. 75 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:19.879 This is an exclusive. This is the very first time 76 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:24.480 that Robin has been officially interviewed about this debut book 77 00:04:25.639 --> 00:04:30.279 she's co authored, and an incredible for everybody that's interested 78 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:33.480 in Dahmer or thinks they know anything about Jeffrey Dahmer. 79 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:36.600 This is the definitive book that you need to know 80 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:40.839 and find out about. So let's jump right in there immediately. 81 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:45.360 How did it come to be that you met Pat 82 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.920 Kennedy found out about this manuscript. How did it come 83 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:51.480 to be that you were in the right place sort 84 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:54.800 of fateful event that you would come into contact with. 85 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:56.480 Pat Kenny tell us a little bit about that. 86 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:02.600 I read an article or a sort of a top 87 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:06.399 ten list, I guess if you will, about sort of 88 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:09.600 the world's world's his you know, his history, the world's 89 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:14.279 most evil people, and Jeffrey Dahmer actually talked. He was 90 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:16.959 I think top three on this list, and it sort 91 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:18.800 of puzzled me a little bit and it made me 92 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:22.079 really want to re you know, re equate myself with 93 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:24.680 the case and I do a little bit more exploration. 94 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:27.800 So I went to YouTube and I looked at a 95 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:30.800 couple of videos, and of course Patrick Kennedy was featured 96 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:33.879 in most of them. After the Dahmer case. He was 97 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:37.079 sort of Milwaukee PDS go to guy on the Dahmer case, 98 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:41.240 and so I got in touch with him actually through 99 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:44.040 a film he was in that was out in twenty twelve. 100 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:47.319 It was called The Jeffrey Dahmer Files, and he was 101 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:49.199 featured in that. He was one of sort of three 102 00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:52.439 people that was interviewed about the Dahmer case. It was him, 103 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:54.480 it was a neighbor, and then it was the medical 104 00:05:54.519 --> 00:05:58.680 examiner in Milwaukee. So I sent sort of a fan letter, 105 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:01.199 if you will, but mostly just in terms of how 106 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:03.759 I thought that you know, it was him specifically who 107 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:06.360 actually got Dahmer to talk, and that you know, I 108 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:08.439 really thought he had done a marvelous job on the 109 00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:11.040 case and a good job in the interview for this film, 110 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:13.319 and I just thought, you know, that would be the 111 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:15.399 end of it. But he actually got in touch with me. 112 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.360 He emailed me back, and that began a dialogue that 113 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:21.079 we had for a couple of months. And in the 114 00:06:21.079 --> 00:06:24.639 course of that dialogue through email, I asked if I 115 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:26.759 could interview him for a magazine article that I was 116 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:29.360 even more interested in writing about Dahmer the more I 117 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:33.279 learned about him from Kennedy. And he said, well, in 118 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:35.600 the course of this messaging back and forth, that he 119 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:37.600 actually had a manuscript and he said, you know, because 120 00:06:37.639 --> 00:06:39.079 I was a writer and had done a lot of 121 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:41.920 work with writers and editors, that you know, he would 122 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:43.439 love for me to read it and just sort of 123 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:45.879 give him some feedback. And this has been a manuscript 124 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:49.319 that he had kind of written immediately after the Dahmer case, 125 00:06:49.399 --> 00:06:51.360 just to kind of get it all off his chest 126 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:54.040 and out of his mind, I guess. And then he 127 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:55.680 kind of would work on it for a little bit 128 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:57.399 and then go put it in the drawer for a 129 00:06:57.439 --> 00:06:59.399 bit and then kind of come back, and he had 130 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:02.519 brought it out again to be featured for this film 131 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:04.240 and just to kind of reacquaint himself with some of 132 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:08.279 the facts of the story, and so at this point 133 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:10.319 he was really interested in having me read it. So 134 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:13.480 we actually agreed to meet in April of twenty thirteen, 135 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:16.160 and I went down to Madison, Wisconsin for their film 136 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:20.319 festival where the Jeffrey Dahmer file was being featured, and 137 00:07:20.439 --> 00:07:24.920 we had a wonderful interview and time together and wonderful 138 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:28.199 conversation about Dahmer and about a lot of other things 139 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.560 as well. I just found Patrick to be fascinating in 140 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:33.759 terms of his work before he became a detective, during 141 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:36.360 his time in homicide, of course, the Dahmer case, and 142 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:41.120 his relationship with jeff Dahmer, and then everything he did afterwards, 143 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:43.959 because for then on he was known as the Dahmer 144 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:46.839 detective and got interviewed a lot about it, had to 145 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:48.879 talk about it a lot, and so he was sort 146 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:52.360 of forever known in association with this very famous case. 147 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:55.720 So I went down and we had this interview, and 148 00:07:56.439 --> 00:07:58.680 I agreed to look at his manuscript, and he agreed 149 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:01.199 to be a subject in my interview for this magazine article, 150 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:05.439 and he gave it to me, and I came home 151 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:08.120 and I was starting to read it, and five days 152 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:10.720 after the first time that we met, I learned that 153 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:13.519 he had a heart attack. He had a fatal heart 154 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:18.120 attack and died. So I went on after about three 155 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:20.560 or four months to write this article and then I 156 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:22.399 didn't really do anything with it for a while because 157 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:24.319 I wasn't really sure if I should or I could, 158 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:26.759 because it really shocked me. Even though I didn't know 159 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:29.279 Kennedy that well and I only met him for the 160 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:32.799 first time in Madison, I just, you know, I really connected. 161 00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:35.759 I really bonded with him, I think over the course 162 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:40.039 of our conversations. And so I went ahead and did 163 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:43.120 the article, had it published in Crime Magazine dot com, 164 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:46.159 and then began to be in touch with his widow, Patty, 165 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:48.480 and she and I decided that, you know, it'd be 166 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:51.679 a wonderful tribute to Patrick and a wonderful legacy for 167 00:08:51.879 --> 00:08:54.200 him just to have this book come out. So I 168 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:56.720 began working on it as an editor, and then I 169 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:01.720 had my own part to put in there as well. 170 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:04.600 Yes, And like I said, I want to reiterate that 171 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:08.519 this is the definitive book because of the access. You 172 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:13.080 rarely get this kind of access, and this is the 173 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:18.200 ultimate access. Is the detective that interviewed Jeffrey Dahmer, not 174 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:20.720 one of them, but the man that did this. And 175 00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:24.440 this is a brilliant interrogation. When I'm getting ahead of 176 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:27.879 myself a little bit, let's get to before Pat Kennedy 177 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:33.200 meets Jeffrey Dahmer. And as you vividly portray in the book, 178 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:36.440 let's take us back to a story that people think 179 00:09:36.519 --> 00:09:39.320 they know, or they've heard, or they heard different renditions of, 180 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:43.320 but the Lawatian boy that runs out into the middle 181 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:48.480 of the street in despair. Tell us, as you describe 182 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:53.039 again vividly in the book, about that scene in your book. 183 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:59.440 Okay, it was May of nineteen ninety one, and it 184 00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:03.919 was sort of evening and getting into nighttime and people 185 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:06.639 on the street. It was a sort of a warm night, 186 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:08.759 and so there was people out in the street, congregating 187 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:11.080 in front of their apartments and just out and about 188 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:16.200 kids coming around, teenagers probably more likely. And yeah, this 189 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:19.679 boy stumbles out of an apartment, and he's not wearing anything. 190 00:10:19.879 --> 00:10:24.879 He's naked, and he probably within just seconds of sort 191 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:28.120 of seeing him, I think most realized he was probably 192 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:33.000 in some kind of distress. A woman grabbed something off 193 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:34.879 of the back of her chair, I think it was 194 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:38.039 like a windbreaker or something, and she ran over with it, 195 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:41.039 and she was trying to speak with him and trying 196 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:43.399 to kind of get from him, you know, what has happened, 197 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:45.759 Why are you out here, and what's going on? And 198 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:48.600 he was slurring, he was slurring his words, and he 199 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:52.399 wasn't really able to communicate with her. So she sort 200 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:55.200 of looked over and found that another neighbor had called 201 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:56.840 the police and they were on their way, and certainly 202 00:10:57.000 --> 00:10:59.799 probably could have, but some people were sort of just 203 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:03.120 any around, and there was definitely witnesses, you know, to 204 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:06.080 what was going on, most people not really wanting to 205 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:07.759 probably get involved, wanting to see what was going to 206 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:10.080 on fold but not necessarily get involved. But this woman 207 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:12.279 did get involved, and so she was trying to help him, 208 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:16.000 and so she was sort of sheltering him a little 209 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:17.600 bit and again just sort of trying to kind of 210 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:20.360 keep him still until the police could get there. But 211 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:22.519 he was probably obviously trying to get away a little bit. 212 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:25.840 But police show up and they kind of come up 213 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:27.960 to the scene and she starts telling them, you know, 214 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:30.759 this boy's in trouble. I think he's been assaulted. Seems 215 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:33.279 to have some like blood on him, and you know, 216 00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:35.279 some scratches and things, and he just he looks like 217 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:38.320 he's a bit disheveled here. And they tried to get 218 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:40.000 from the boy, you know, sort of who are you, 219 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:44.440 what's going on? And he isn't really able to communicate 220 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:47.639 with them either. Again, he's slurring, he's reverting back to 221 00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:52.600 his native tongue and not even really communicating in English. 222 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:54.480 But I mean they can obviously see that there is 223 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:56.960 something that's going on here and that things are not right. 224 00:11:57.320 --> 00:11:58.679 She's sort of trying to say to them, you know, 225 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:00.879 this is a boy and he's in trouble, and they're 226 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:03.759 sort of waiting to kind of maybe just gather about 227 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:07.159 some more information, sort of out of the scene or 228 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:08.759 out of the corner of their eye. I'm sure they 229 00:12:08.840 --> 00:12:12.720 notice that there's this other man they are probably approaching them, 230 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:16.000 and he sort of walks right up to the scene 231 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.639 and asks what's going on, And so they are trying 232 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:22.320 to explain to him, and a couple of people recognize 233 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:24.039 that this is a man that lives in the building 234 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:26.039 where the boys come out of. They can sort of 235 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:30.360 verify that. But he's trying to tell the police that 236 00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:32.480 this is not a boy, this is not a teenager, 237 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:35.200 that this is actually a grown man nineteen years old, 238 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:37.759 and it's his boyfriend. He's saying, you know, he's drunk. 239 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:40.399 I just left him passed out in our apartment where 240 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:42.879 we live. I went out to get more beer, holds 241 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:45.240 up a six pack to prove, you know, there's this 242 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:47.879 story is legit, and there sort of seems to be 243 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:50.919 conflicting stories happening. There's what the woman's telling them, or 244 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:54.679 trying to tell them, what the man who is telling them, 245 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:57.720 and he's really trying to convince them, and is very convincing. 246 00:12:57.879 --> 00:13:01.240 I think to say, you know, yess, my boyfriend he's 247 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:03.519 not a kid. I can prove it to you. I 248 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:06.559 have his identification upstairs in my apartment if you'll just 249 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:10.120 follow me. So the police bring the boy back up 250 00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:13.639 to what turns out to be Jeffrey Dahmer's apartment, and 251 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:16.600 they're going to the apartment and they're just sort of 252 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:19.679 arm on each side of this boy, lugging him up 253 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:22.000 to the apartment as well, because he's still very stumbly. 254 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:27.600 He's seemingly intoxicated. And they get to the door of 255 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:30.720 two thirteen of the Oxford apartments and they go in. 256 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:33.000 Now the police sort of just sort of stand on 257 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:36.480 the other side of the threshold and the guys, the 258 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:39.159 man of the apartment goes and he's looking for identification, 259 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:42.080 flipping through things, and the police are just sort of 260 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:44.159 trying to get their story straight. So they have to 261 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:45.440 because they know they're gonna have to stall out some 262 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:48.399 kind of paperwork and a report, but they basically want 263 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:50.279 to sort of wrap this up as quickly as they can. 264 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:54.320 The man sounds really legit, you know, he doesn't have identification, 265 00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:57.360 but he's showing them some photographs of the man of 266 00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:59.039 the Yet what he's saying is a man. It's actually 267 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:03.600 a teenage boy, you know, without a shirt on, looking happy. 268 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:05.840 He's got a drink in his hand, he's smiling for 269 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:08.799 the camera. So there's they're thumbing to these pictures that 270 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:12.159 look okay, like maybe this guy's story is on the level, 271 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:15.279 and essentially, long story short, they end up leaving the 272 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:19.639 boy there and believing Dahmer's story, and they go and 273 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:22.720 Dahmer kills him within half an hour of their leaving. 274 00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:27.200 So there is the initial police call, which is, you know, 275 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:29.080 there's a young guy out on the street naked, he 276 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:31.759 looks like he's in trouble. Then later there is another 277 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.200 call and it turns out to be the aunt of 278 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:37.159 one of the two girls, or no, it's actually the 279 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:39.080 mothers or one of the two girls that was also 280 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:42.480 helping this lady. And she's very concerned because she says, 281 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:44.080 you know, I'm sure that this kid goes to my 282 00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:47.279 you know, my niece's school and they know him from 283 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:49.399 the street, and he's not a man. He is a boy. 284 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:51.960 And the police are just basically brushing her off. You know, 285 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:54.360 we've done all we can now, can't get involved in 286 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:57.240 these little domestic squabbly thing type things. You know, it's 287 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:00.159 not up to us to judge anybody's lifestyle. And she's 288 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:02.679 not really saying any of that at all. She's basically saying, 289 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:05.159 you know, are you sure, are you absolutely positive that 290 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:07.919 this is not a boy, And they assure her and 291 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:10.000 basically wave her off, and that's the end of that 292 00:15:10.279 --> 00:15:13.279 so you know, here in hindsight, of course, is the 293 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:16.240 opportunity where he could have really been stopped. That happened 294 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:19.759 in May. He wasn't caught until July, and four men 295 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:21.440 died in that period of time. 296 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:29.240 Now let's get to July twenty second and a gentleman 297 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:32.960 named Tracy Edwards, and you talk about that. Tracy Edwards 298 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:37.200 is at a mall and with some friends, a good 299 00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:42.399 looking guy, a black guy, and Dahmer has his as 300 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:46.320 many people will know, maybe some people will know anyway, 301 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:50.159 that Dahmer has a certain preferences, and we'll talk about 302 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.039 that later in interrogation with Pat Kennedy. But tell us 303 00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:57.000 about Tracy Edwards and how because this scene demonstrates how 304 00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:01.639 he his ruse or his puloor, we'll say, to get 305 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:04.039 people to come back to his apartment. So tell us 306 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:06.399 how Jeffrey Dahmer and Tracy Edwards meet. 307 00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:13.039 They meet in them all. It's in Milwaukee, not too 308 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:17.320 too far from where Dahmer lived. And this was actually 309 00:16:17.480 --> 00:16:20.240 a place where Dahmer would go. And as he would 310 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:22.679 tell Pat Kennedy, you know, initially he was going there 311 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:24.519 mostly to people watch and just kind of you know, 312 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:26.759 he was a guy that didn't have really any friends 313 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:29.480 at all, knowing that he would hang around with regularly. 314 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:32.559 So if he felt like he wanted to be social 315 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:34.279 and he needed to sort of be out and about 316 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:36.000 with people, I guess them all was a good place 317 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:39.519 for him to go, and so he would sort of 318 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:42.360 go there also for cruising and sort of seeing and 319 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:46.440 meeting guys that he would find attractive. And as you say, 320 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:49.000 he did have seemed to have a tight and it 321 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:51.600 talks about it quite extensively and several times in the 322 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:55.360 interview with Kennedy, and that is that he really really 323 00:16:55.399 --> 00:17:00.480 loves muscular slight men that are tall and just sort 324 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:03.679 of have really lean and good looking muscles. If you 325 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:06.559 had ever seen pictures of his apartment, apparently he had 326 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.759 quite a bit of artwork that kind of featured muscles, 327 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:14.240 mostly African American men, And that was definitely what he 328 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:16.880 would look for when he would go out to the clubs, 329 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:18.720 to the gay clubs and pick up a lot of 330 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:20.839 men when he would go to the mall, that's the 331 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:24.440 kind of body type that he was looking for. He 332 00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:27.480 would his ruse or his way of sort of seducing 333 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:30.480 would be saying things like, you know, you've really got 334 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:32.759 a nice looking body. I mean, I think what it 335 00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:35.559 would be is mostly like an exchange of glances. Maybe 336 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:38.440 first a smile, kind of a little joke or whatever 337 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:41.880 have he just to kind of introduce themselves. But eventually, 338 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:44.319 within a couple of minutes or more, he would get 339 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:46.599 to that point where he would feel comfortable enough to 340 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:48.519 say to them, how would you like to come back 341 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:51.559 to my apartment. I'd love to take some photographs of you. 342 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:54.480 You know, you can have some drinks, maybe watch a movie. 343 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:56.880 You know, I'll pay you fifty wore one hundred and 344 00:17:56.920 --> 00:17:59.200 fifty dollars, depending on what he had in terms of 345 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:01.799 money that he could do with, and so I'll offer 346 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:04.359 anywhere between fifty dollars and one hundred and fifty dollars. 347 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:07.200 If the guy was really really good looking, in someone 348 00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:09.039 that he was very attracted to, then it would of 349 00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:12.400 course be more money. So money was always a good incentive. 350 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:14.920 Sometimes it would really be the thing I'm sure that 351 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.200 would may be the main enticement, but also possibly does 352 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:20.319 the opportunity to have a couple of free drinks with 353 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:22.880 the guy, and you know, there was any kind of 354 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.480 sexual seduction that would be a little bonus perhaps, but 355 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:28.519 that was sort of his come on. That was sort 356 00:18:28.519 --> 00:18:32.680 of his way of getting these guys interested and coming 357 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:34.160 back to his apartment. 358 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:39.119 Now, they pick up some beer, Jeff buys a six pack, 359 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:43.640 and they head over to the apartment and it doesn't 360 00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:47.720 nothing seems untoward as they head towards the apartment when 361 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:50.400 you get to the apartment, just like the police, but 362 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:53.799 the police are used to all kinds of uncommon things. 363 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:58.640 So there's what does Tracy Edwards notice immediately as he 364 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:02.599 gets into that apartment building itself or near Jeffrey's apartment, 365 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:07.799 and then tell us the rapid transition from things that 366 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:12.480 were not untowards on the way there, everything seems much 367 00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:14.200 different quickly. Tell us about that. 368 00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:20.319 Tracy has been has said in interviews, and I guess 369 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:24.160 in the court testimony when he testified it the Darmer 370 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:29.480 case court case that you know, he sort of picked 371 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:32.960 up pretty quickly as they were walking and getting to 372 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:36.119 Jeff's apartment that you know, this guy as a guy 373 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:39.519 who's probably really shy, doesn't probably have a lot of friends, 374 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:42.039 you know, maybe doesn't have an easy time making connections. 375 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:44.079 He found him attractive, like he said, you know, he's 376 00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:47.640 a nice looking, decently dressed, blonde guy, blue eyes. You know, 377 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:50.799 he's not an unappealing looking man, so you know he 378 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:53.000 was there were sort of interests, I guess on both sides, 379 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:56.079 But I think that in his mind, whatever was going 380 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:57.920 to happen was going to be, you know, some semi 381 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:01.279 harm most fun. But as they get into the apartment, 382 00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:03.440 and as soon as they get through the door of 383 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:08.000 two thirteen, he's just overwhelmed by this horrendous spell. And 384 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:10.000 you can imagine. I mean, it's like end of July, 385 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:14.359 very hot, very humid. 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