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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 4: journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 6: In the late hours of July twenty second, nineteen ninety one, Milwaukee,
Speaker 6: Wisconsin Changed Forever. Detective Patrick Kennedy would meet a man
Speaker 6: who had altered many lives in devastating ways. Nothing could
Speaker 6: possibly have prepared Kennedy for what he witnessed that faithful
Speaker 6: night as he rolled out to the call of a
Speaker 6: potential murder scene. The Milwaukee Cannibal, the Monster of Milwaukee,
Speaker 6: as Jeffrey Dahmer would come to be known, was the
Speaker 6: serial killer who drugged, photographs, strangled, sexually assaulted, dismembered, and
Speaker 6: in some cases cannibalized seventeen young men during a three
Speaker 6: year period in a small, one bedroom efficiency apartment. Dahmer
Speaker 6: detective the interrogation investigation that shocked the world, goes inside
Speaker 6: the police interrogation room, where Kennedy spent long days during
Speaker 6: six chaotic weeks with Dahmer as he confessed to his
Speaker 6: life as a serial killer, while the world's media clamored
Speaker 6: outside for information and confirmation the story of one of
Speaker 6: the most notorious criminals of the twentieth century. The book
Speaker 6: that we're featuring this evening is Dahmer Detective, The investigation
Speaker 6: and interrogation that shocked the world, with my special guest,
Speaker 6: journalist and author, Robin Maharaj. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 6: thank you to for ingreding this interview Robin Maharaj. Thanks Dan,
Speaker 6: Thank you very much. Robin. This is for our audience.
Speaker 6: This is an exclusive. This is the very first time
Speaker 6: that Robin has been officially interviewed about this debut book
Speaker 6: she's co authored, and an incredible for everybody that's interested
Speaker 6: in Dahmer or thinks they know anything about Jeffrey Dahmer.
Speaker 6: This is the definitive book that you need to know
Speaker 6: and find out about. So let's jump right in there immediately.
Speaker 6: How did it come to be that you met Pat
Speaker 6: Kennedy found out about this manuscript. How did it come
Speaker 6: to be that you were in the right place sort
Speaker 6: of fateful event that you would come into contact with.
Speaker 6: Pat Kenny tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2: I read an article or a sort of a top
Speaker 2: ten list, I guess if you will, about sort of
Speaker 2: the world's world's his you know, his history, the world's
Speaker 2: most evil people, and Jeffrey Dahmer actually talked. He was
Speaker 2: I think top three on this list, and it sort
Speaker 2: of puzzled me a little bit and it made me
Speaker 2: really want to re you know, re equate myself with
Speaker 2: the case and I do a little bit more exploration.
Speaker 2: So I went to YouTube and I looked at a
Speaker 2: couple of videos, and of course Patrick Kennedy was featured
Speaker 2: in most of them. After the Dahmer case. He was
Speaker 2: sort of Milwaukee PDS go to guy on the Dahmer case,
Speaker 2: and so I got in touch with him actually through
Speaker 2: a film he was in that was out in twenty twelve.
Speaker 2: It was called The Jeffrey Dahmer Files, and he was
Speaker 2: featured in that. He was one of sort of three
Speaker 2: people that was interviewed about the Dahmer case. It was him,
Speaker 2: it was a neighbor, and then it was the medical
Speaker 2: examiner in Milwaukee. So I sent sort of a fan letter,
Speaker 2: if you will, but mostly just in terms of how
Speaker 2: I thought that you know, it was him specifically who
Speaker 2: actually got Dahmer to talk, and that you know, I
Speaker 2: really thought he had done a marvelous job on the
Speaker 2: case and a good job in the interview for this film,
Speaker 2: and I just thought, you know, that would be the
Speaker 2: end of it. But he actually got in touch with me.
Speaker 2: He emailed me back, and that began a dialogue that
Speaker 2: we had for a couple of months. And in the
Speaker 2: course of that dialogue through email, I asked if I
Speaker 2: could interview him for a magazine article that I was
Speaker 2: even more interested in writing about Dahmer the more I
Speaker 2: learned about him from Kennedy. And he said, well, in
Speaker 2: the course of this messaging back and forth, that he
Speaker 2: actually had a manuscript and he said, you know, because
Speaker 2: I was a writer and had done a lot of
Speaker 2: work with writers and editors, that you know, he would
Speaker 2: love for me to read it and just sort of
Speaker 2: give him some feedback. And this has been a manuscript
Speaker 2: that he had kind of written immediately after the Dahmer case,
Speaker 2: just to kind of get it all off his chest
Speaker 2: and out of his mind, I guess. And then he
Speaker 2: kind of would work on it for a little bit
Speaker 2: and then go put it in the drawer for a
Speaker 2: bit and then kind of come back, and he had
Speaker 2: brought it out again to be featured for this film
Speaker 2: and just to kind of reacquaint himself with some of
Speaker 2: the facts of the story, and so at this point
Speaker 2: he was really interested in having me read it. So
Speaker 2: we actually agreed to meet in April of twenty thirteen,
Speaker 2: and I went down to Madison, Wisconsin for their film
Speaker 2: festival where the Jeffrey Dahmer file was being featured, and
Speaker 2: we had a wonderful interview and time together and wonderful
Speaker 2: conversation about Dahmer and about a lot of other things
Speaker 2: as well. I just found Patrick to be fascinating in
Speaker 2: terms of his work before he became a detective, during
Speaker 2: his time in homicide, of course, the Dahmer case, and
Speaker 2: his relationship with jeff Dahmer, and then everything he did afterwards,
Speaker 2: because for then on he was known as the Dahmer
Speaker 2: detective and got interviewed a lot about it, had to
Speaker 2: talk about it a lot, and so he was sort
Speaker 2: of forever known in association with this very famous case.
Speaker 2: So I went down and we had this interview, and
Speaker 2: I agreed to look at his manuscript, and he agreed
Speaker 2: to be a subject in my interview for this magazine article,
Speaker 2: and he gave it to me, and I came home
Speaker 2: and I was starting to read it, and five days
Speaker 2: after the first time that we met, I learned that
Speaker 2: he had a heart attack. He had a fatal heart
Speaker 2: attack and died. So I went on after about three
Speaker 2: or four months to write this article and then I
Speaker 2: didn't really do anything with it for a while because
Speaker 2: I wasn't really sure if I should or I could,
Speaker 2: because it really shocked me. Even though I didn't know
Speaker 2: Kennedy that well and I only met him for the
Speaker 2: first time in Madison, I just, you know, I really connected.
Speaker 2: I really bonded with him, I think over the course
Speaker 2: of our conversations. And so I went ahead and did
Speaker 2: the article, had it published in Crime Magazine dot com,
Speaker 2: and then began to be in touch with his widow, Patty,
Speaker 2: and she and I decided that, you know, it'd be
Speaker 2: a wonderful tribute to Patrick and a wonderful legacy for
Speaker 2: him just to have this book come out. So I
Speaker 2: began working on it as an editor, and then I
Speaker 2: had my own part to put in there as well.
Speaker 6: Yes, And like I said, I want to reiterate that
Speaker 6: this is the definitive book because of the access. You
Speaker 6: rarely get this kind of access, and this is the
Speaker 6: ultimate access. Is the detective that interviewed Jeffrey Dahmer, not
Speaker 6: one of them, but the man that did this. And
Speaker 6: this is a brilliant interrogation. When I'm getting ahead of
Speaker 6: myself a little bit, let's get to before Pat Kennedy
Speaker 6: meets Jeffrey Dahmer. And as you vividly portray in the book,
Speaker 6: let's take us back to a story that people think
Speaker 6: they know, or they've heard, or they heard different renditions of,
Speaker 6: but the Lawatian boy that runs out into the middle
Speaker 6: of the street in despair. Tell us, as you describe
Speaker 6: again vividly in the book, about that scene in your book.
Speaker 2: Okay, it was May of nineteen ninety one, and it
Speaker 2: was sort of evening and getting into nighttime and people
Speaker 2: on the street. It was a sort of a warm night,
Speaker 2: and so there was people out in the street, congregating
Speaker 2: in front of their apartments and just out and about
Speaker 2: kids coming around, teenagers probably more likely. And yeah, this
Speaker 2: boy stumbles out of an apartment, and he's not wearing anything.
Speaker 2: He's naked, and he probably within just seconds of sort
Speaker 2: of seeing him, I think most realized he was probably
Speaker 2: in some kind of distress. A woman grabbed something off
Speaker 2: of the back of her chair, I think it was
Speaker 2: like a windbreaker or something, and she ran over with it,
Speaker 2: and she was trying to speak with him and trying
Speaker 2: to kind of get from him, you know, what has happened,
Speaker 2: Why are you out here, and what's going on? And
Speaker 2: he was slurring, he was slurring his words, and he
Speaker 2: wasn't really able to communicate with her. So she sort
Speaker 2: of looked over and found that another neighbor had called
Speaker 2: the police and they were on their way, and certainly
Speaker 2: probably could have, but some people were sort of just
Speaker 2: any around, and there was definitely witnesses, you know, to
Speaker 2: what was going on, most people not really wanting to
Speaker 2: probably get involved, wanting to see what was going to
Speaker 2: on fold but not necessarily get involved. But this woman
Speaker 2: did get involved, and so she was trying to help him,
Speaker 2: and so she was sort of sheltering him a little
Speaker 2: bit and again just sort of trying to kind of
Speaker 2: keep him still until the police could get there. But
Speaker 2: he was probably obviously trying to get away a little bit.
Speaker 2: But police show up and they kind of come up
Speaker 2: to the scene and she starts telling them, you know,
Speaker 2: this boy's in trouble. I think he's been assaulted. Seems
Speaker 2: to have some like blood on him, and you know,
Speaker 2: some scratches and things, and he just he looks like
Speaker 2: he's a bit disheveled here. And they tried to get
Speaker 2: from the boy, you know, sort of who are you,
Speaker 2: what's going on? And he isn't really able to communicate
Speaker 2: with them either. Again, he's slurring, he's reverting back to
Speaker 2: his native tongue and not even really communicating in English.
Speaker 2: But I mean they can obviously see that there is
Speaker 2: something that's going on here and that things are not right.
Speaker 2: She's sort of trying to say to them, you know,
Speaker 2: this is a boy and he's in trouble, and they're
Speaker 2: sort of waiting to kind of maybe just gather about
Speaker 2: some more information, sort of out of the scene or
Speaker 2: out of the corner of their eye. I'm sure they
Speaker 2: notice that there's this other man they are probably approaching them,
Speaker 2: and he sort of walks right up to the scene
Speaker 2: and asks what's going on, And so they are trying
Speaker 2: to explain to him, and a couple of people recognize
Speaker 2: that this is a man that lives in the building
Speaker 2: where the boys come out of. They can sort of
Speaker 2: verify that. But he's trying to tell the police that
Speaker 2: this is not a boy, this is not a teenager,
Speaker 2: that this is actually a grown man nineteen years old,
Speaker 2: and it's his boyfriend. He's saying, you know, he's drunk.
Speaker 2: I just left him passed out in our apartment where
Speaker 2: we live. I went out to get more beer, holds
Speaker 2: up a six pack to prove, you know, there's this
Speaker 2: story is legit, and there sort of seems to be
Speaker 2: conflicting stories happening. There's what the woman's telling them, or
Speaker 2: trying to tell them, what the man who is telling them,
Speaker 2: and he's really trying to convince them, and is very convincing.
Speaker 2: I think to say, you know, yess, my boyfriend he's
Speaker 2: not a kid. I can prove it to you. I
Speaker 2: have his identification upstairs in my apartment if you'll just
Speaker 2: follow me. So the police bring the boy back up
Speaker 2: to what turns out to be Jeffrey Dahmer's apartment, and
Speaker 2: they're going to the apartment and they're just sort of
Speaker 2: arm on each side of this boy, lugging him up
Speaker 2: to the apartment as well, because he's still very stumbly.
Speaker 2: He's seemingly intoxicated. And they get to the door of
Speaker 2: two thirteen of the Oxford apartments and they go in.
Speaker 2: Now the police sort of just sort of stand on
Speaker 2: the other side of the threshold and the guys, the
Speaker 2: man of the apartment goes and he's looking for identification,
Speaker 2: flipping through things, and the police are just sort of
Speaker 2: trying to get their story straight. So they have to
Speaker 2: because they know they're gonna have to stall out some
Speaker 2: kind of paperwork and a report, but they basically want
Speaker 2: to sort of wrap this up as quickly as they can.
Speaker 2: The man sounds really legit, you know, he doesn't have identification,
Speaker 2: but he's showing them some photographs of the man of
Speaker 2: the Yet what he's saying is a man. It's actually
Speaker 2: a teenage boy, you know, without a shirt on, looking happy.
Speaker 2: He's got a drink in his hand, he's smiling for
Speaker 2: the camera. So there's they're thumbing to these pictures that
Speaker 2: look okay, like maybe this guy's story is on the level,
Speaker 2: and essentially, long story short, they end up leaving the
Speaker 2: boy there and believing Dahmer's story, and they go and
Speaker 2: Dahmer kills him within half an hour of their leaving.
Speaker 2: So there is the initial police call, which is, you know,
Speaker 2: there's a young guy out on the street naked, he
Speaker 2: looks like he's in trouble. Then later there is another
Speaker 2: call and it turns out to be the aunt of
Speaker 2: one of the two girls, or no, it's actually the
Speaker 2: mothers or one of the two girls that was also
Speaker 2: helping this lady. And she's very concerned because she says,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure that this kid goes to my
Speaker 2: you know, my niece's school and they know him from
Speaker 2: the street, and he's not a man. He is a boy.
Speaker 2: And the police are just basically brushing her off. You know,
Speaker 2: we've done all we can now, can't get involved in
Speaker 2: these little domestic squabbly thing type things. You know, it's
Speaker 2: not up to us to judge anybody's lifestyle. And she's
Speaker 2: not really saying any of that at all. She's basically saying,
Speaker 2: you know, are you sure, are you absolutely positive that
Speaker 2: this is not a boy, And they assure her and
Speaker 2: basically wave her off, and that's the end of that
Speaker 2: so you know, here in hindsight, of course, is the
Speaker 2: opportunity where he could have really been stopped. That happened
Speaker 2: in May. He wasn't caught until July, and four men
Speaker 2: died in that period of time.
Speaker 6: Now let's get to July twenty second and a gentleman
Speaker 6: named Tracy Edwards, and you talk about that. Tracy Edwards
Speaker 6: is at a mall and with some friends, a good
Speaker 6: looking guy, a black guy, and Dahmer has his as
Speaker 6: many people will know, maybe some people will know anyway,
Speaker 6: that Dahmer has a certain preferences, and we'll talk about
Speaker 6: that later in interrogation with Pat Kennedy. But tell us
Speaker 6: about Tracy Edwards and how because this scene demonstrates how
Speaker 6: he his ruse or his puloor, we'll say, to get
Speaker 6: people to come back to his apartment. So tell us
Speaker 6: how Jeffrey Dahmer and Tracy Edwards meet.
Speaker 2: They meet in them all. It's in Milwaukee, not too
Speaker 2: too far from where Dahmer lived. And this was actually
Speaker 2: a place where Dahmer would go. And as he would
Speaker 2: tell Pat Kennedy, you know, initially he was going there
Speaker 2: mostly to people watch and just kind of you know,
Speaker 2: he was a guy that didn't have really any friends
Speaker 2: at all, knowing that he would hang around with regularly.
Speaker 2: So if he felt like he wanted to be social
Speaker 2: and he needed to sort of be out and about
Speaker 2: with people, I guess them all was a good place
Speaker 2: for him to go, and so he would sort of
Speaker 2: go there also for cruising and sort of seeing and
Speaker 2: meeting guys that he would find attractive. And as you say,
Speaker 2: he did have seemed to have a tight and it
Speaker 2: talks about it quite extensively and several times in the
Speaker 2: interview with Kennedy, and that is that he really really
Speaker 2: loves muscular slight men that are tall and just sort
Speaker 2: of have really lean and good looking muscles. If you
Speaker 2: had ever seen pictures of his apartment, apparently he had
Speaker 2: quite a bit of artwork that kind of featured muscles,
Speaker 2: mostly African American men, And that was definitely what he
Speaker 2: would look for when he would go out to the clubs,
Speaker 2: to the gay clubs and pick up a lot of
Speaker 2: men when he would go to the mall, that's the
Speaker 2: kind of body type that he was looking for. He
Speaker 2: would his ruse or his way of sort of seducing
Speaker 2: would be saying things like, you know, you've really got
Speaker 2: a nice looking body. I mean, I think what it
Speaker 2: would be is mostly like an exchange of glances. Maybe
Speaker 2: first a smile, kind of a little joke or whatever
Speaker 2: have he just to kind of introduce themselves. But eventually,
Speaker 2: within a couple of minutes or more, he would get
Speaker 2: to that point where he would feel comfortable enough to
Speaker 2: say to them, how would you like to come back
Speaker 2: to my apartment. I'd love to take some photographs of you.
Speaker 2: You know, you can have some drinks, maybe watch a movie.
Speaker 2: You know, I'll pay you fifty wore one hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty dollars, depending on what he had in terms of
Speaker 2: money that he could do with, and so I'll offer
Speaker 2: anywhere between fifty dollars and one hundred and fifty dollars.
Speaker 2: If the guy was really really good looking, in someone
Speaker 2: that he was very attracted to, then it would of
Speaker 2: course be more money. So money was always a good incentive.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it would really be the thing I'm sure that
Speaker 2: would may be the main enticement, but also possibly does
Speaker 2: the opportunity to have a couple of free drinks with
Speaker 2: the guy, and you know, there was any kind of
Speaker 2: sexual seduction that would be a little bonus perhaps, but
Speaker 2: that was sort of his come on. That was sort
Speaker 2: of his way of getting these guys interested and coming
Speaker 2: back to his apartment.
Speaker 6: Now, they pick up some beer, Jeff buys a six pack,
Speaker 6: and they head over to the apartment and it doesn't
Speaker 6: nothing seems untoward as they head towards the apartment when
Speaker 6: you get to the apartment, just like the police, but
Speaker 6: the police are used to all kinds of uncommon things.
Speaker 6: So there's what does Tracy Edwards notice immediately as he
Speaker 6: gets into that apartment building itself or near Jeffrey's apartment,
Speaker 6: and then tell us the rapid transition from things that
Speaker 6: were not untowards on the way there, everything seems much
Speaker 6: different quickly. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2: Tracy has been has said in interviews, and I guess
Speaker 2: in the court testimony when he testified it the Darmer
Speaker 2: case court case that you know, he sort of picked
Speaker 2: up pretty quickly as they were walking and getting to
Speaker 2: Jeff's apartment that you know, this guy as a guy
Speaker 2: who's probably really shy, doesn't probably have a lot of friends,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe doesn't have an easy time making connections.
Speaker 2: He found him attractive, like he said, you know, he's
Speaker 2: a nice looking, decently dressed, blonde guy, blue eyes. You know,
Speaker 2: he's not an unappealing looking man, so you know he
Speaker 2: was there were sort of interests, I guess on both sides,
Speaker 2: But I think that in his mind, whatever was going
Speaker 2: to happen was going to be, you know, some semi
Speaker 2: harm most fun. But as they get into the apartment,
Speaker 2: and as soon as they get through the door of
Speaker 2: two thirteen, he's just overwhelmed by this horrendous spell. And
Speaker 2: you can imagine. I mean, it's like end of July,
Speaker 2: very hot, very humid. This is like a little apartment,
Speaker 2: one bedroom apartment with a window air conditioner, so you know,
Speaker 2: there's already gonna probably be uncomfortable and unpleasant, and he
Speaker 2: just walks in and just is overwhelmed and just almost
Speaker 2: knocked out.
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Speaker 2: By the smell, and so he court asks about it immediately,
Speaker 2: and Dahmer had in the past given the excuse of, oh, well,
Speaker 2: my fish died, my face with fish in my aquarium died,
Speaker 2: or I have a little freezer and some meat spoilt
Speaker 2: in there, and this was the excuse that he would
Speaker 2: give to neighbors and to the caretakers who would come
Speaker 2: and they'll ask him about it and question him about it.
Speaker 2: He gave some excuse to Edwards and basically said, yeah,
Speaker 2: I know, I've really complained about the smell to my manager,
Speaker 2: but he's not doing anything about it. So kind of
Speaker 2: just brushes it away and brushes it off. So they
Speaker 2: get into the apartment and Jeffrey's busy locking the door,
Speaker 2: and much later in his conversations with Kennedy, he would say,
Speaker 2: you know, as soon as I had that door locked,
Speaker 2: these guys were mine, mine to mine, to control, whether
Speaker 2: he would kill them or not, you know, it would
Speaker 2: be for later decisions, but as soon as they were
Speaker 2: locked in his apartment, he felt that, you know, it
Speaker 2: was they were his. So Edward said, you know, he
Speaker 2: almost noticed immediately that there was a change in Jeff
Speaker 2: that he had gone from this sort of happy, you know, quiet,
Speaker 2: kind of reserved polite guy to sort of there was
Speaker 2: a darkness about him. And he really couldn't put his
Speaker 2: finger on it, but he just really felt like, you know,
Speaker 2: he needed to lighten the mood a little bit. So
Speaker 2: Jeff poured him a drink and just hand it in
Speaker 2: this drink and had a beer for himself, and he
Speaker 2: said the drink tasted awful, and he really just sort
Speaker 2: of fit a little bit at it to be polite,
Speaker 2: but didn't really drink too much of it. And he
Speaker 2: said that Jeff was kind of quiet. He put in
Speaker 2: this movie. They were sitting there watching the movie there,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of he was trying to engage Jeff
Speaker 2: and some conversation, asking him about where he worked and
Speaker 2: you know, kind of things he liked to do for fun,
Speaker 2: and there really wasn't much a conversation coming from Jeff's
Speaker 2: side of the side of the couch. But I guess
Speaker 2: he said, you know, I want to take some pictures
Speaker 2: and I want to let's get you to take your
Speaker 2: shirt off. So Tracy complied, he felt that he had to,
Speaker 2: and then Jeff wanted to move things into the bedroom,
Speaker 2: so he did, and next thing, you know, there's a
Speaker 2: knife in Jeff's hands, and so Tracy's you know, probably
Speaker 2: really wondering how did this get to this point this quickly?
Speaker 2: But yeah, over the course of several hours, there was
Speaker 2: sort of this back and forth of being in the bedroom,
Speaker 2: being in the front room where the air conditioning was
Speaker 2: and where the movie was playing for him, trying to
Speaker 2: calm Jeff down, but to sort of give the impression
Speaker 2: that he wasn't going to leave, you know, that I
Speaker 2: will be here and everything's cool. You know, you don't
Speaker 2: have to worry about having the knife. You know, you
Speaker 2: can even put it away if you want. And he
Speaker 2: said that Jeff was just kind of like walking back
Speaker 2: and forth, and he was kind of like mumbling and
Speaker 2: enchanting a little bit, and he just sort of kept
Speaker 2: walking back and forth. And of course Jeff is drinking
Speaker 2: this entire time, so he's just getting more and more uberated,
Speaker 2: maybe not even noticing really that Tracy has not taken
Speaker 2: this drink that has been laced with drugs. So this
Speaker 2: was really kind of a reversal of all of the
Speaker 2: other engagements that he had had with most of them
Speaker 2: and that he killed. He would drink, but he would
Speaker 2: sort of stay in control, whereas his victims would be
Speaker 2: very healthy, athletic, usually men that would come to his
Speaker 2: apartment and then be basically drunk drug to a true
Speaker 2: drink and tablets that he would put in them. So
Speaker 2: it was kind of the opposite going on here. So Tracy,
Speaker 2: after several hours, says to himself, I have to get
Speaker 2: out of here or I'm not going to survive this.
Speaker 2: And so he punches Jeff and just manages to get
Speaker 2: out of the bedroom, get out of the apartment, get
Speaker 2: all the door locks, the undone, and just bolt gets
Speaker 2: out of there. And he still has a handcuff that
Speaker 2: Jeff has put on earlier in the evening attached to
Speaker 2: his arm, but he does manage to escape. And I
Speaker 2: think in his testimony and then stories that he's told
Speaker 2: afterwards articles, he has said that he just like felt
Speaker 2: that Dahmer was right behind him that entire time, And
Speaker 2: you could only imagine, you know, like he's supposed to
Speaker 2: be starting to think the smell of that apartment. Who
Speaker 2: knows really what he all thought, you know, because it's
Speaker 2: a weird little apartment with all these bodies. We eventually
Speaker 2: find out. But I mean, just jeff was a very
Speaker 2: strange guy and just suddenly in the apartment he changed.
Speaker 2: And yeah, he definitely felt like his life was in danger,
Speaker 2: and it very much was.
Speaker 6: Well, we forgot to mention, and it's just because movies
Speaker 6: have a little bit of a role in this. It's
Speaker 6: just interesting some of the biggest movies in the world,
Speaker 6: horror movies anyway, just happened to be fiction and reality
Speaker 6: at the same time. Intersect is that Jeffrey Dahmer is
Speaker 6: one of his favorite movies was Exorcist three, So that's
Speaker 6: the movie he put on. He was rocking back and forth,
Speaker 6: and he also said to Edwards, he said, I'm going
Speaker 6: to cut your heart out and eat it.
Speaker 2: That's right, he does say that to him. Yeah, So yeah, Tracy,
Speaker 2: very very smartly. I think when I look back on
Speaker 2: this whole story, in this whole scenario, this whole scene
Speaker 2: as an unfolding, he did the absolute right thing. You know,
Speaker 2: he just he heard it, but he pretended that he
Speaker 2: didn't hear it, and he just sort of said, what
Speaker 2: he could calm Dahmer down. He didn't try and like
Speaker 2: jump out in the van and wrestle with a knife.
Speaker 2: You know, he sort of just thought it out and
Speaker 2: just said, you know, the more I appease this guy,
Speaker 2: the better, you know, I just I can sort of
Speaker 2: I mean, I think he just sort of felt like
Speaker 2: the more I can sort of just calm him down,
Speaker 2: then there'll be more of an opportunity for me to
Speaker 2: you know, punch him, knock him over and at least
Speaker 2: have a chance to possibly escape.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about Edwards flagging down the first police
Speaker 6: cruiser that comes into vision, so obviously you know we
Speaker 6: know the outcome. But tell us what the police do
Speaker 6: this time when they go back to Jeffrey Dahmer's apartment,
Speaker 6: as opposed to the one who was Alwatian boys.
Speaker 2: That's right. Edwards did not want to go back there.
Speaker 2: He was so frightened, and he was, you know, rightfully
Speaker 2: so just you know, terrified that you can't imagine that
Speaker 2: he's gonna be brought back to this scene. Of course,
Speaker 2: it's a different story. You know, he's able to tell
Speaker 2: the police, you know, if they had asked him what
Speaker 2: was going on. He just really wanted to get the
Speaker 2: cuffs off his hand. That was his biggest concern. He's like,
Speaker 2: I don't even want to press charges. I just want,
Speaker 2: you know, takes us to get these things off my arm. So,
Speaker 2: recognizing that they weren't Milwaukee Police department issue, they said, well,
Speaker 2: we need to get whoever has the key to them
Speaker 2: to get them off. So they take them back to
Speaker 2: Dahmer's apartment after much persuading, and they're standing there. Now
Speaker 2: Jeff has been knocked out and he's still very, very
Speaker 2: drunk from all the beer that he's been drinking. It's
Speaker 2: probably very late, it is after midnight, and there's these
Speaker 2: cops standing there with the guy you know that he's
Speaker 2: just punched them and escaped. So they say, this fellow
Speaker 2: has handcuffs on his arm. They want he wants them off.
Speaker 2: Where's the key? So they come in and they of
Speaker 2: course can smell, you know, the same thing that Edwards
Speaker 2: had smelled hours earlier and that everyone in the apartment
Speaker 2: was complaining about. And you know, Jeff is sort of
Speaker 2: fumbling around and you know in the back of his
Speaker 2: mind he's thinking, I don't have the key, like I
Speaker 2: don't know where the key is, because he's never needed
Speaker 2: the key anytime he's handcuffed somebody, they've been a victim
Speaker 2: that he can cut their arm off to take the
Speaker 2: handcuffed off, So he's never needed the key. So I'm
Speaker 2: sure he's thinking to himself, how am I going to
Speaker 2: get out of this? But the more time that the
Speaker 2: cops are there, the more things are just really feeling
Speaker 2: weird odd. That smell is getting to them. Starting to
Speaker 2: look around a little bit, they see there's a stack
Speaker 2: of some polaroid pictures of men in various stages of undressed.
Speaker 2: Then they're starting to see pictures of bodies and body
Speaker 2: parts and viscera, and so one of them just yells
Speaker 2: grab them, so they get him down onto the ground.
Speaker 2: He's wrestling around and he's really you know, trying to resist,
Speaker 2: but they get him down, and of course they call
Speaker 2: it in and that's basically how the police stop Jeffrey Dahmer.
Speaker 6: Now before it's very fascinating because this is something I
Speaker 6: did not know, And this is where we take this
Speaker 6: brilliant manuscript and fuse it with brilliant work you do
Speaker 6: too to bring this story to life and fuse it
Speaker 6: with this incredible interrogation. But the point where Pat Kennedy's
Speaker 6: still not involved, These officers, like you say, are looking around,
Speaker 6: they see the polaroids, they know the things up. They
Speaker 6: arrest Jeffrey, tell us what's in the one bedroom, and
Speaker 6: then tell us what those police find. And then, as
Speaker 6: you talk about in the book, what's the call that
Speaker 6: Pat Kennedy gets, They, as you looking.
Speaker 2: At these photographs, they've got Dahmer contained. You know, he's
Speaker 2: down on the ground and he's handcuffed. And then the
Speaker 2: police start to really start to go through this apartment
Speaker 2: a little bit. They for whatever reason, and I'm sure
Speaker 2: the cop to this day doesn't know what he decided,
Speaker 2: why he decided to do this, but he opens the
Speaker 2: fridge door and there's a severed head sitting in the
Speaker 2: fridge and takes him a couple of seconds to realize
Speaker 2: that this is real. And they that's, you know, that's
Speaker 2: when they realize this is a serious, serious case and
Speaker 2: that you know, like this isn't just a run of
Speaker 2: a mill kind of a thing that's going on. This
Speaker 2: is something that they've never ever dealt with before. They
Speaker 2: start to uh, well, I don't know. At that point,
Speaker 2: with just these two officers there, you know how much
Speaker 2: they really started to look around because you start to
Speaker 2: hear of the things that they're finding. But that's really
Speaker 2: when more officers arrive and they you know, the forensic
Speaker 2: people are showing up, and Dahmer's actually already in custody
Speaker 2: at that point and he's in the interrogation room with Kennedy.
Speaker 2: But yeah, they find these big drums in his bedroom
Speaker 2: that have torsos and limbs. They find in the freezer
Speaker 2: there are pieces of flesh that are wrapped up that
Speaker 2: he is cut up and played almost. They find more heads,
Speaker 2: they find skulls, They just finding like you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: it's a horror movie really. I mean, this is the
Speaker 2: difference between a serial killer who leaves his body parts
Speaker 2: around for the police to find and the whole community
Speaker 2: and neighborhood and city is aware that there's a serial
Speaker 2: killer on the loose. This is actually finding the killer
Speaker 2: and finding all of the bodies and then getting the
Speaker 2: whole story. You know. So it's very that's in a
Speaker 2: way makes it very unique. But Patrick actually was working
Speaker 2: the third shift. So he's showing up for work and
Speaker 2: just kind of getting settled in with a cup of coffee,
Speaker 2: and his partner shows up, and then they get a
Speaker 2: call from their captain saying, you know, we just got
Speaker 2: a call. You guys are up next, and it sounds
Speaker 2: like it's a homicide, something about ahead in the fridge.
Speaker 2: Probably nothing, it's probably a prank, but you have to
Speaker 2: go check it out. And so that's the call they get,
Speaker 2: and they're you know, kind of you know, puzzled about it,
Speaker 2: figuring it's probably just a big joke, even making jokes
Speaker 2: about the whole thing. So they get out into this hot,
Speaker 2: hot night in their car, you know, getting to the scene.
Speaker 2: They get to the apartment and immediately they're overwhelmed by
Speaker 2: the smell. And I think it's something that all cops say,
Speaker 2: you know, once you smell once, you know it, and
Speaker 2: that's the smell of decomp And so they go up
Speaker 2: to the apartment and you know, Pat very nicely explained
Speaker 2: sort of everything that unful that he sees it when
Speaker 2: he first walks through that door.
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is so so now in the interrogation room
Speaker 6: for our audience, I mean, this is a savvy audience.
Speaker 6: But how is it that Jeffrey Dahmer, like many other
Speaker 6: serial killers and killers, why he wouldn't ask for a lawyer.
Speaker 6: What is the circumstances in which Jeffrey would be interested
Speaker 6: and this is part of it, that Jeffrey would be
Speaker 6: not so interested in calling a lawyer. How does it
Speaker 6: come to be that that is not something that Jeffrey
Speaker 6: Dahmer immediately inquires about and desires.
Speaker 2: Well, I think initially Dahmer in that room, probably for
Speaker 2: the first little bit of time, really believed that he
Speaker 2: could probably talk his way out of this. If you
Speaker 2: know the story, you know that he sort of had
Speaker 2: a history and had lots of practice and lots of
Speaker 2: success at actually fooling authorities with the story of the
Speaker 2: police and the Laysian boy on the street, you know,
Speaker 2: and times before that as well, where he managed to
Speaker 2: sort of talk his way out of a bad situation. So,
Speaker 2: you know, initially that might have been instinct number one.
Speaker 2: I think instinct number two for him was to shut
Speaker 2: down and actually say nothing at all, not ask for anything,
Speaker 2: not say anything, and basically just sort of clam up.
Speaker 2: And you know, he was always a very quiet person,
Speaker 2: so this would not be an unusual tack for him
Speaker 2: to take. I think what actually got him to open
Speaker 2: up and you sort of do think, why wouldn't he
Speaker 2: ask for a lawyer? Wouldn't that be the first thing
Speaker 2: out of his mouth? But his first reaction, I think
Speaker 2: was to please Kennedy. This guy comes in, he's asking
Speaker 2: him if he wants coffee, do you want some cigarettes?
Speaker 2: Sort of is buddying up to him, and it's really
Speaker 2: nothing at all what Jeff was expecting. So I think
Speaker 2: he very quickly just really bonded and connected with him
Speaker 2: and wanted to please him, and so he just sort
Speaker 2: of started to tell his story and that Kennedy very
Speaker 2: wisely played it perfectly by sort of letting him talk,
Speaker 2: you know, asking some questions, nothing too hard, but really
Speaker 2: just kind of saying to him, you know, there's nothing
Speaker 2: you can say that you've done that's going to upset me.
Speaker 2: I am just I'm not here to judge you. I'm
Speaker 2: just here to get your story.
Speaker 6: And you really take the audience, the reader into this too,
Speaker 6: is because he says, please, pat just take your gun
Speaker 6: out and shoot me. Just end it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And Kennedy is horrified to realize that he
Speaker 2: still had his gun holstered to his hip, and he
Speaker 2: was pretty I think, embarrassed in a way. But you know,
Speaker 2: you got to imagine the shock he was in from
Speaker 2: everything that he had just gone on in the previous hour,
Speaker 2: because he had been in that apartment, you know, he
Speaker 2: had seen that was when he meant to Jeff for
Speaker 2: the first time. He's like down on the floor in
Speaker 2: handcuffs and right there, you know, Kennedy is assuring him,
Speaker 2: but he's going to be okay because Jeff thinks, are
Speaker 2: you going to beat me up? Too? And you know
Speaker 2: that was the first thing that Kennedy said, is no,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to beat you up. You know, I
Speaker 2: just want to talk to you.
Speaker 6: This is this is It's incredible. And you also do
Speaker 6: He asked the question, do you know what hydro cleric
Speaker 6: acid would do if you put it into your veins?
Speaker 6: And so he's talking to Pat Kenny about that and
Speaker 6: then and then he's crying like a little scared little boy,
Speaker 6: Patrick said. Pat said, and the little puddle of tears
Speaker 6: underneath his chair, And Pat said, I genuinely felt sorry
Speaker 6: for him. So he says, this was a good time
Speaker 6: to take a break.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, Kennedy, you know, found himself. You know,
Speaker 2: I think, almost in spite of himself, liking Jeff because
Speaker 2: he sort of said, you know, he's actually not a
Speaker 2: bad guy. I mean, he's done terrible, horrible, monstrous things,
Speaker 2: but he goes, you can sit and have coffee with them.
Speaker 2: He did. He sat and had coffee and cigarettes with him.
Speaker 2: They had lunch together several times. They would talk about
Speaker 2: things in the paper when they were not doing the
Speaker 2: interrogation part of the day. You know, he just sort
Speaker 2: of came to kind of like the guy, and I
Speaker 2: know it really bothered him sort of on some levels,
Speaker 2: and it took him a really long time to I mean,
Speaker 2: if I think if you use the word friend, I
Speaker 2: think he would cringe a little. And he didn't want
Speaker 2: to think of it as a relationship necessarily. But I
Speaker 2: think in the end he really did say it was
Speaker 2: a relationship because we did talk, and you know, like,
Speaker 2: I like the guy. You know, there's a lot of
Speaker 2: other guys, bad guys that I've met that I don't like,
Speaker 2: that I hate, but this guy, you know, he was
Speaker 2: okay because he was he was polite, and he was
Speaker 2: to talk and he was willing to help them. He
Speaker 2: was willing to talk to them about who his victims were,
Speaker 2: because back in ninety one, if you think about it,
Speaker 2: you know, they didn't necessarily have all of the tools
Speaker 2: available to them forensically to identify all of these these victims,
Speaker 2: and in some cases there was nothing left of the victim,
Speaker 2: or very little left of the victim. And so jeff
Speaker 2: was really instrumental in actually bringing you know, some relief
Speaker 2: possibly to those family members who are wondering whatever happened
Speaker 2: to our uncle, our brother, our son, our dad.
Speaker 6: You know, That's what I wanted to talk about, because
Speaker 6: this is I think the pivotal point in the interrogation
Speaker 6: is that Pat utilizes all of his own history, his
Speaker 6: own experiences, good and bad, and incorporates that as you
Speaker 6: you know, describe in the book that he has a
Speaker 6: background as an AA member, a former drinker, and he
Speaker 6: is has been raised Roman Catholic. So tell us how
Speaker 6: he uses those two things to convince Jeffrey to help
Speaker 6: and what that help is, what help does he ask
Speaker 6: for specifically?
Speaker 2: He Yeah, that's probably one of the things that you know,
Speaker 2: you know about when you know Kennedy, you know about
Speaker 2: him is the fact that he was an alcoholic and
Speaker 2: that he sought treatment. He had been clean for quite
Speaker 2: a long time before the whole Dahmer case came up,
Speaker 2: but you know, it's sort of still a struggle that
Speaker 2: he had. And so, you know, maintaining a sober life
Speaker 2: when you have a history of alcoholism, not just your own,
Speaker 2: but in your family. Plus you know, very stressful job, family, money, worries,
Speaker 2: the whole bit. So he recognized in his talking with
Speaker 2: Jeff pretty early on that Jeff had a serious drinking
Speaker 2: problem and was able to say, you know, to himself,
Speaker 2: I can connect with him on this, and that was
Speaker 2: what they did talk about. He didn't I don't think
Speaker 2: he actually came out and said, you know, Jeff, if
Speaker 2: you hadn't been drinking, this wouldn't have happened necessarily. But
Speaker 2: he did say, you know, in his experience, alcohol has
Speaker 2: sometimes played a big part in a case, especially a
Speaker 2: case of homicide, and that, you know, it's something that
Speaker 2: he was able to use to get Jeff to open up.
Speaker 2: And the whole religious and religion in their lives. Kennedy
Speaker 2: was Roman Catholic, Jeff was raised Lutherans, but they had
Speaker 2: a lot of conversations about God and the existence of God,
Speaker 2: and you know the part that religion played in their life.
Speaker 2: And Jeff really felt that, you know, when he abandoned
Speaker 2: religion and stopped going to church and stopped talking about
Speaker 2: the Bible and Jesus to his grandmother that that's when
Speaker 2: things kind of started to fly for him. You know,
Speaker 2: he didn't blame that lack of religion on anyone but himself,
Speaker 2: but you know, he said that when he stopped fullocusing
Speaker 2: on you know, living the good life, living a better life,
Speaker 2: that that's when things sort of spiraled out of control.
Speaker 2: So they did talk about that quite a bit as well.
Speaker 2: And Pat very early on in his life had actually
Speaker 2: wanted to be a Catholic priest, and he actually started
Speaker 2: to attend preseminary classes and that was sort of the
Speaker 2: direction that his life was leading, that he was actually
Speaker 2: going to become a Catholic priest. So the idea of
Speaker 2: the confessional model, I think was something that appealed to
Speaker 2: him and that you know, he actually just would naturally
Speaker 2: incorporate into any conversation that he would have with a
Speaker 2: suspect Damber or otherwise. So I think that you know,
Speaker 2: he he just sort of used his natural innate abilities
Speaker 2: and his own experience to kind of connect with this suspect,
Speaker 2: and it worked very quickly. You know, it was within
Speaker 2: that first night that jeff was just basically telling him
Speaker 2: about everything that he had done.
Speaker 6: Now with also with the addition cigarettes and hot coffee,
Speaker 6: he does not ask for a lawyer, and he keeps
Speaker 6: continuing the conversation. And you talked about the six the
Speaker 6: numerous hours with Jeffrey Dahmer, So tell us about what
Speaker 6: exactly they go through and the identification of the victims
Speaker 6: and what exactly Jeffrey how he talks about because he
Speaker 6: is a unique serial killer and that he doesn't try
Speaker 6: to justify blame other people, blame the victims. So he's
Speaker 6: unique in that respect. So what exactly does Jeffrey Dahmer
Speaker 6: talk about specifically, and how does he talk to Pat
Speaker 6: Kennedy about his crimes and his victims and what he
Speaker 6: has done and his fantasies.
Speaker 2: Well, this is where you know Kennedy, and then through
Speaker 2: Kennedy and this manuscript, people really learn, I think more
Speaker 2: than we've ever really known about what focus Dahmer had
Speaker 2: as far as choosing his victims and what he was
Speaker 2: looking for. And you're absolutely right when you say, you
Speaker 2: know this wasn't you know where he was the kind
Speaker 2: of things in terms of his victims. He wasn't blaming them.
Speaker 2: He wasn't saying, well, that person deserves to die, so
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill them. In his case, he claimed
Speaker 2: that he loved all of his victims, that he wanted
Speaker 2: his victims to be with him, and that he didn't
Speaker 2: want them to leave. He didn't want them to abandon him.
Speaker 2: So that was why he would choose to kill them,
Speaker 2: because then they would be with him, you know, for
Speaker 2: the rest of their life, so that he would have
Speaker 2: them till the end. And so when he's talking to
Speaker 2: Kennedy about these victims, and that's exactly what pat had
Speaker 2: said to him, you know, he said, the only thing
Speaker 2: you could maybe even do to kind of have any
Speaker 2: kind of show of remorse and to show that you
Speaker 2: are sorry for what you did, you know, and for
Speaker 2: to have people believe that, is to help us to
Speaker 2: identify these people, because then you're at least giving those families,
Speaker 2: you know, a reasonable story to what happened to them,
Speaker 2: because right now these are all men that just disappeared.
Speaker 2: And so we we can give them some I hate
Speaker 2: to use the word closure, but we can give them
Speaker 2: some you know, understanding of what happened to them. And so,
Speaker 2: you know, Dahmer readily agrees to do this, and I
Speaker 2: mean part of it is a fact that he can
Speaker 2: sit there and talk to them, and you know, Kennedy
Speaker 2: time after time, you know, startles him by not being
Speaker 2: shocked and surprised, Like he just continues to listen and
Speaker 2: ask questions, but not say, Jeff, what a horrible thing
Speaker 2: that you did, or why would you do that? Or
Speaker 2: you know, I mean when he did ask that, it
Speaker 2: was more just out of a curiosity. It wasn't to
Speaker 2: place blame or to judge him at all. And yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, Jeff just basically kind of goes through you know,
Speaker 2: every time he would go out, he would pick somebody up,
Speaker 2: he would bring them home. He didn't know the names
Speaker 2: of the victims. So they were doing this all through photography,
Speaker 2: through pictures that the families had brought in of their
Speaker 2: missing loved one of the apartments of the sorry, the
Speaker 2: photo that they found in his apartment, and in some
Speaker 2: cases police photos that they had of people who had
Speaker 2: been previously arrested. So this is how they were basically
Speaker 2: identifying these victims. And yeah, he was basically telling them
Speaker 2: the story at the pickup, what he would do, whether
Speaker 2: they were drinking, and whether he drugged them. You know,
Speaker 2: sort of how it all unfolded, why he would kill them,
Speaker 2: and what he was doing specifically with each of the bodies,
Speaker 2: because there was a progression, Like initially he was just
Speaker 2: sort of dispatching these people, these men. Then he was
Speaker 2: sort of trying to keep them alive a little bit
Speaker 2: because he just felt it was such a waste to
Speaker 2: kill them. So he was drilling holes in their head
Speaker 2: to try and make kind of zombie boyfriends, if you will.
Speaker 2: And so, you know, as they're discovering things, as the
Speaker 2: medical examiner is telling them things, they're asking jeff about it,
Speaker 2: and then he's explaining as they go.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about this conversation and this poor that
Speaker 6: they have Patrick has with Jeffrey Dahmer, and little by little,
Speaker 6: there is the ability the evidence that Jeffrey provides the
Speaker 6: background information that he did, and he did keep some
Speaker 6: evidence of their identification, didn't he some of the victims,
Speaker 6: wasn't there? Son?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in most cases he burned staff or
Speaker 2: threw it away or just tossed it in the toilet
Speaker 2: and flushed it. But I think that he did have
Speaker 2: some identification. There was one man that he really really
Speaker 2: was attracted and that person's identification actually I think they
Speaker 2: did find it in the drawer of his bedroom. But really,
Speaker 2: like if you think about it in terms of trophies,
Speaker 2: like you know, and I don't really think that would
Speaker 2: be the right word necessarily, but I mean he kept
Speaker 2: the men like, he tried to keep their skulls. He
Speaker 2: tried to keep some of their body parts bones. I mean,
Speaker 2: they found a lot of bones in his apartment. So
Speaker 2: that was actually what he needed in order to remind
Speaker 2: himself of what he had done. And he was using these,
Speaker 2: you know, to masturbate the photographs that he had taken,
Speaker 2: not only of the men alive, but of the men dead.
Speaker 2: And so you know, this was all part of his
Speaker 2: basically his sexual addiction, which was necrophilia. I mean, that
Speaker 2: was his paraphilia, which was that he liked, well, he
Speaker 2: liked incapacitated men. That's what he really wanted to sleep with,
Speaker 2: was men that who would not ask anything of him,
Speaker 2: but that he could do whatever he wanted. To them,
Speaker 2: but it almost always ended when most of these pickups
Speaker 2: with you know, the man dead.
Speaker 6: When you talk about necrophilia again, it's it's one of
Speaker 6: those very rare areas that only some of these people
Speaker 6: again a paraphilia. But to add to that, and this
Speaker 6: is part of Dahmer's uniqueness too in the experimentation. And
Speaker 6: also what about the conversation Pat had with cannibalism when
Speaker 6: he asked why why was the cannibalism?
Speaker 2: Well, in Jeff's mind that he had this kind of
Speaker 2: romantic notion that these this was a way that he
Speaker 2: could keep these lovers with him forever, and that they
Speaker 2: would always be a part of him, that he could
Speaker 2: ingest them, and that they would always be there. So
Speaker 2: for him, that was sort of what he was doing.
Speaker 2: And again it was more sorted towards the end I
Speaker 2: think of his killing spree, but he certainly, I mean,
Speaker 2: he had flesh and body parts in his freezer, and
Speaker 2: I mean when the officers were unpacking these things, they're saying,
Speaker 2: it looks like cuts of meat, and it's very much
Speaker 2: almost prepared that way too, according to Patrick, and the
Speaker 2: investigation that they did, you know, that was pretty much
Speaker 2: all he was consuming in the last months before they
Speaker 2: caught him. They found condiments, and they found like vegetables
Speaker 2: and sort of side dishes that you would have perhaps,
Speaker 2: but I mean the only meat he was really eating
Speaker 2: was human flesh. And you know, I think he didn't
Speaker 2: talk about this initially, he claims. Dahmer claims that you
Speaker 2: will really sure whether it would matter in terms of,
Speaker 2: you know, like I'm telling you about all the men
Speaker 2: I killed, does it matter you know, whether I cannibalize
Speaker 2: them or not. And then he also said, I didn't
Speaker 2: want you to think less of me. You know, he
Speaker 2: was worried about that might be too taboo, that they
Speaker 2: would eventually just say, okay, and that's enough, we can't
Speaker 2: take any more of this. But once again Kennedy was
Speaker 2: able to find within himself and the other detective that
Speaker 2: helped him, of course, with all this, to really just
Speaker 2: kind of go ahead and move past it. And of
Speaker 2: course they did ask him, and again it was really
Speaker 2: about this. I wanted to keep them with me.
Speaker 6: Now you don't talk about too much in the book,
Speaker 6: but there is Jeffrey Dahmer has to move and so
Speaker 6: that creates a lot of anxiety in his life and
Speaker 6: so as you say his modus operandi, everything that he did,
Speaker 6: he used to be and he does say to Pat,
Speaker 6: I think, yeah, I used to be really careful. So
Speaker 6: he seemed to be very very disorganized and more so
Speaker 6: chaotic and careless. And then when we get the difference
Speaker 6: between the calm, cool and collect with the Lauatian boy
Speaker 6: and Jeffrey Dahmer's luck just runs out basically.
Speaker 2: So he was definitely out of control those last you know,
Speaker 2: six weeks or so in terms of the amount of
Speaker 2: then he was killing the fact that he was drinking
Speaker 2: so much more and getting like so drunk and passing out,
Speaker 2: that bodies were starting to pile up, and even he
Speaker 2: admitted that that he wasn't able to dispose of them
Speaker 2: as quickly as he was killing them. So there was that,
Speaker 2: and again there was a smell. It was summertime, so
Speaker 2: he was dealing with that. Things weren't really going very
Speaker 2: well with them at work, and in fact, he knew
Speaker 2: that he was going to be let go because he's
Speaker 2: did so much work. He would sort of try and
Speaker 2: do all that he was doing with these men from
Speaker 2: the pickup to the disposal all over the course of
Speaker 2: the weekend, but then sometimes that wasn't enough, and so
Speaker 2: he was actually killing maybe two men a week, and
Speaker 2: so it was really things were just really sort of
Speaker 2: spiraling out of control, and he knew it. I mean,
Speaker 2: he just knew that he was getting sloppy, he was
Speaker 2: getting lazy about things, but he didn't really do anything
Speaker 2: to you know, turn it.
Speaker 6: Around now with at the same time we and you
Speaker 6: point out in the book it's very interesting and I
Speaker 6: remember this at that time too, reading Silence of the
Speaker 6: Lambs and then realizing not that long after the movie
Speaker 6: comes out and it sweeps the Academy Awards and everybody
Speaker 6: knows the story of the two horrible villains in that movie,
Speaker 6: one accounnibal and one a person that's making a new
Speaker 6: suit from a human suit. Anyway, you could talk about
Speaker 6: what you said about Silence of the Lambs and then
Speaker 6: the uncanny art imitates life sort of coincidence in terms
Speaker 6: of timing, and then from there tell us what the
Speaker 6: media's response was to this story in little old Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that you know, the irony really of
Speaker 2: Silence of the Lambs and this sort of whole movie
Speaker 2: that really kind of swept the Academy Awards. Everyone was
Speaker 2: talking about it. You know, it was such an amazing performances,
Speaker 2: Jodie Foster, Anthony Hawkins, like just you know, it was
Speaker 2: just a real really well received movie, and it really
Speaker 2: just kind of opened up this new area I think
Speaker 2: of that horror genre just sort of sort of so
Speaker 2: different at that time. It became became like a classic.
Speaker 2: People love that movie now even now. And but yeah,
Speaker 2: the irony of the psychiatrist, the serial killer and then
Speaker 2: what is going on with the skinning of victims. So
Speaker 2: as soon as the whole Jeffrey Dahmer's story came out,
Speaker 2: People Magazine, I think the week after had a true
Speaker 2: silence of the Lambs horror story in this little apartment
Speaker 2: in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, And it was really like how could
Speaker 2: he have gotten away with this for so long? That
Speaker 2: was really the main focus of the story. Who was
Speaker 2: this guy and how did he manage to kill all
Speaker 2: these people without you know, really anyone having any kind
Speaker 2: of knowledge that there was a serial killer in their
Speaker 2: mist So, yeah, there was definitely sort of this whole
Speaker 2: as you say, our art imitating true life going on
Speaker 2: at that time in ninety one, And yeah, Wisconsin I mean,
Speaker 2: the other interesting thing about that is that the whole
Speaker 2: Ed Genes story, which also took place and he was
Speaker 2: in Plainfield, Wisconsin, many many decades earlier, but that movie
Speaker 2: was actually also the inspiration for one of the inspirations
Speaker 2: for Silence of the Lambs. So it does kind of
Speaker 2: go full circle a little bit. And you know, yes,
Speaker 2: the state known for dairy production, bearit to production and
Speaker 2: happy days, you know. Now it's still forever now marred
Speaker 2: by the Daughner story.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So tell us about how long this interrogation was,
Speaker 6: what was the net result in terms of did they
Speaker 6: identify all of the victims? And how complete and truthful
Speaker 6: and plausible was this full confession that Kennedy and his associate,
Speaker 6: another detective, elicited from Jeffrey Dahmer. So what was it
Speaker 6: all contained in there? Was everything that they ever needed
Speaker 6: for a trial, for a conviction? Was it in there?
Speaker 2: I think that Kennedy, the detectives, and the prosecutor all
Speaker 2: felt that Dahmer was honest with them that once caught,
Speaker 2: he really just sort of felt what would be the
Speaker 2: point of holding anything back. I will admit to seventeen killers,
Speaker 2: but not eighteen like it was just I mean, he
Speaker 2: basically said, I'm going to tell you everything. There's no
Speaker 2: reason to not tell you everything. Now interesting about you know,
Speaker 2: another little connection with the Silence of the Lambs and
Speaker 2: how big of a role the FBI played in that,
Speaker 2: because of course Foster's character is, you know, trained to
Speaker 2: be an FBI agent, and it's sort of all over
Speaker 2: the movie. While in Milwaukee, Murphy, Dennis Murphy and Patrick
Speaker 2: Kennedy kept getting visited by these two agents from the
Speaker 2: FBI who were absolutely convinced that Dahmer is snowing you.
Speaker 2: He's laughing at you, He's no, there's no way he's
Speaker 2: telling you the whole story. And in fact, you know,
Speaker 2: you guys might even be suffering a little bit because
Speaker 2: you're getting too close to and they kind of lasted
Speaker 2: off and they said, you know, you can lay your information.
Speaker 2: The FBI agents really wanted to interview Jeffrey Dahmer, but
Speaker 2: they said, you know, we have him first, and then
Speaker 2: it's up to his lawyer to decide if he's going
Speaker 2: to talk to anyone else in authority, and so they
Speaker 2: FBI kind of walked away empty handed. But they Kennedy
Speaker 2: and Murphy believe the Dahmer told them everything because they
Speaker 2: were able to identify certainly, like through the photographs and
Speaker 2: Dahmer's sort of an uncanny were a collection of dates
Speaker 2: and what missing reports were made and when people were
Speaker 2: last seen, and so they were able to confirm everything.
Speaker 2: Like they said, you know, he wasn't always necessarily forthcoming
Speaker 2: with information, but if they asked him a question, they
Speaker 2: always felt that he was telling them the truth. And
Speaker 2: I mean several times along the way they tried to
Speaker 2: fool him, They tried to trick him. They really tried
Speaker 2: to get him to somehow admit to something that he
Speaker 2: hadn't done so that they could turn around and say, Haha, Jeff,
Speaker 2: we caught you in a lie. But you know, every
Speaker 2: time they did, he came. He came clean, basically. And
Speaker 2: so I think that Patrick, you know, never doubted that
Speaker 2: they got the entire story because again, you know, he
Speaker 2: would admit to all of this, admit to all the
Speaker 2: things that he did. And I think that, I mean,
Speaker 2: we get a lot in this book, but I mean
Speaker 2: there's probably things that Kennedy just felt he could not
Speaker 2: even express in writing that he learned about Dahmer. And
Speaker 2: he said, if he's willing to admit to all of this,
Speaker 2: then I don't have any reason to believe he's holding back. Now.
Speaker 6: I can't even imagine what else anyone can even imagine
Speaker 6: doing now with this Now, with this relationship, that's a
Speaker 6: little upsided, obviously, because Jeffrey really thinks he's a friend,
Speaker 6: because he's never been able to talk without any kind
Speaker 6: of judgment before. Obviously, he's kept this super dark secret
Speaker 6: a secret forever. This is something who are you going
Speaker 6: to share this with? So he sees these Pat Kennedy
Speaker 6: and Murphy as at least confidants, and so the relationship ends.
Speaker 6: Pat Kennedy's able to compartmentalize. He can feel empathy, but
Speaker 6: it's a job and he's a professional. So just tell
Speaker 6: us about that, because it's interesting what you write how
Speaker 6: Pat talks about this relationship.
Speaker 2: Well, I think, I mean, I think because of the
Speaker 2: intensity of it all. You know, everything that he's been
Speaker 2: told by Jeff, everything that Jeff's admitting to the media, scrutiny,
Speaker 2: you know, sort of the pressure that he was feeling
Speaker 2: as a pretty young detective. He was only thirty seven
Speaker 2: at the time. It'd been on the homicide Bureau for
Speaker 2: a couple of years, but I mean still considered to
Speaker 2: be a little on the green side to have caught
Speaker 2: such a heavy case. So there's all this pressure. And
Speaker 2: then there's things going on at home in terms of
Speaker 2: his marriage and you know, living with kids. They were
Speaker 2: all sort of preteen and teenage. This is actually a remarriage,
Speaker 2: so you know, there's sort of that a little bit
Speaker 2: of stress there too. So there's all this going on.
Speaker 2: His wife is worried, you know, are you going to
Speaker 2: be driven to go to the bottle because of all
Speaker 2: of this. She's worried that he's not going to be
Speaker 2: seeking professional health like through therapy. You know, he's confident
Speaker 2: that he's got it under wraps, under control, and there
Speaker 2: is no issue with that at all anyway, So you know,
Speaker 2: it's that's not really a reality pressure necessarily, but he
Speaker 2: you know, he's he's got all of this sort of
Speaker 2: on his head as this case is going on, So
Speaker 2: there has to be a certain amount of relief when
Speaker 2: it's gonna finally come to an end and he doesn't
Speaker 2: have to deal with a Dahmer story anymore. He's going
Speaker 2: to go to prison forever and that's that. So there
Speaker 2: is this meeting. You know, Dahmer has been he's actually
Speaker 2: admitted to the to guilt, so it wasn't an though
Speaker 2: they had to prove that he was guilty. He pled guilty.
Speaker 2: What was up for debate was whether he was insane
Speaker 2: or not. And of course his lawyers are saying he's insane,
Speaker 2: prosecutors saying he knew exactly what he was doing and
Speaker 2: he should be held responsible for that. He of course
Speaker 2: was found sane. And so there is this little meeting
Speaker 2: in the back of the judges quarters where he's going
Speaker 2: to sell and Patrick goes in and they do have
Speaker 2: sort of a chance to say goodbye and a handshake,
Speaker 2: and you know, the sort of whole thing kind of
Speaker 2: comes to an end, and you know, everyone is cheering
Speaker 2: the paper. I've got their story. The media is all,
Speaker 2: you know, abouz because this is now sort of the
Speaker 2: final chapter of this very long story. The city feels
Speaker 2: as though it can now start to heal and repair
Speaker 2: itself a little bit and just put this kind of
Speaker 2: mess behind them, you know, families can move on. And
Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure in many ways kind of just
Speaker 2: further felt that was the end of it. I mean,
Speaker 2: he knew it was a case making, career making, you know, opportunity.
Speaker 2: But you know, I just you can't live at that
Speaker 2: pitch for so many weeks, and it was certainly many
Speaker 2: many weeks. I mean, there was the initial six weeks
Speaker 2: of the interrogation, the daily sitting in the room with
Speaker 2: Jeff and getting a story. But then there was sort
Speaker 2: of this downtime while everyone's preparing for the case, and
Speaker 2: he goes back to the night shift, no longer on
Speaker 2: day shift, and then it's the trial, you know, and
Speaker 2: it's basically the decision. So then he's back on day
Speaker 2: shift and he's running witnesses around and basically just being
Speaker 2: available should anyone need him. So it was again this
Speaker 2: very big sort of moment what was going to be
Speaker 2: the decision, and then sort of the aftermath of that.
Speaker 2: But as I said earlier, I mean he did become
Speaker 2: sort of a go to guy at Milwaukee. I mean
Speaker 2: everyone wanted to talk to him. Kennedy is a great storyteller,
Speaker 2: so he's a very good interview and you know, he
Speaker 2: actually was there, he sat face to face. He was
Speaker 2: the detective that Dahmer insisted on talking to.
Speaker 6: Right now, this is a subject of a documentary, and
Speaker 6: so then he has written this manuscript and the attention
Speaker 6: from this case has certainly not dissipated. His face is
Speaker 6: on when people talk about serial killers. His face is
Speaker 6: among those top ten, you know, the legends of serial killers,
Speaker 6: and so he's fascinated people for years and years. So,
Speaker 6: as you say, Pat Kennedy was the guy that people
Speaker 6: would talk to and do interviews. But at some point
Speaker 6: before say, the documentary, it seemed that there was less
Speaker 6: interest and then it seemed to go in waves in
Speaker 6: terms of interest in Jeffrey Dahmer, and hence that the
Speaker 6: documentary again years after the crime.
Speaker 2: Obviously mm hmmmm hm. Well, I think that, you know,
Speaker 2: there is a certain amount of stuff about Dahmer, but
Speaker 2: not a lot of stuff about Dahmer, partly because there
Speaker 2: wasn't There wasn't really the hunt for a serial killer.
Speaker 2: You know, they basically caught this guy and then realized
Speaker 2: that they had a serial killer. So you know, it's
Speaker 2: sort of there wasn't sort of the the who done
Speaker 2: it part of the story. They already knew who done it.
Speaker 2: It was just a matter of identifying the victims and
Speaker 2: finding out why, like finding out what turned this pretty ordinary, average,
Speaker 2: almost boring guy who worked in a chocolate factory into
Speaker 2: this you know, sort of sexual predator killer. So there
Speaker 2: was that, and I guess the amount of time that
Speaker 2: goes by too, Like this is a twenty five year
Speaker 2: old case. Now this summer is the twentieth anniversary of
Speaker 2: his arrest, so you know, there's lots more new crimes
Speaker 2: that have occurred in that period of time. So you know,
Speaker 2: it's like anything, I think that sort of comes in waves.
Speaker 2: I think as people learn about him and hear about him.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's like twenty year olds now who don't
Speaker 2: know who Jeffrey Dahmer is, and they're interested in reading
Speaker 2: this book because they want to sort of hear it
Speaker 2: from the historical point of view. They want to sort
Speaker 2: of place it back in ninety one and just sort
Speaker 2: of see how police sort of did their job and
Speaker 2: how this all kind of came together in that time frame.
Speaker 6: Now, how much I guess that was Oh I was
Speaker 6: also going to say.
Speaker 2: Just to add to that too. I think also because
Speaker 2: Dahmer confessed, you know, like he they didn't have to
Speaker 2: sort of, you know, turn the screws on him. They
Speaker 2: didn't have to do a bunch of investigation because they
Speaker 2: didn't have a willing criminal. I mean, he was willing
Speaker 2: to talk to them, So I think there is. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's not that it didn't make the story more interesting.
Speaker 2: I mean there's lots of interesting facts that come out
Speaker 2: of it, but instead of just a very un new
Speaker 2: visual way that he came to be known, you know,
Speaker 2: and yeah, you know you hear Jeffrey Dahmer. Most people
Speaker 2: know who you're talking about, because, as you say, he's
Speaker 2: in the legions of serial killers. He's really high up there.
Speaker 6: When you talk about the why of this? What did
Speaker 6: did Pat must have wondered, as you wonder, and all
Speaker 6: we all wonder the why? How did it come to
Speaker 6: be that this? As everybody seems to know, he didn't
Speaker 6: come from the kind of backgrounds that you would think.
Speaker 6: And of course Jeffrey Dahmer never blamed his family, and
Speaker 6: there's been family support, so they it doesn't seem to
Speaker 6: be and Jeffrey doesn't claim that there is as well.
Speaker 6: So did Pat ask that question? Did he get any
Speaker 6: inkling of the why?
Speaker 2: Like why did he have the attraction or why.
Speaker 6: Just why he went from this? Again, no sinister background
Speaker 6: that would it seems to be at least what killers
Speaker 6: claim to have had happened to them. And there's certainly
Speaker 6: killers that have had horrendinous backgrounds. But Jefferies, again, like
Speaker 6: he talk in this book and people know some other
Speaker 6: interviews as well, that he was very very candid, didn't
Speaker 6: say his family had anything to do with this. It
Speaker 6: wasn't his upbringing. So again, what there was no didn't
Speaker 6: seem to be any trigger, we'll say, and not so
Speaker 6: other than you know, so, did Pat in this interrogation
Speaker 6: pose that question to Jeffrey, how did you come to
Speaker 6: or or did he have that pose that question to himself?
Speaker 6: In the Is there an answer to the why?
Speaker 2: I think that that question was asked several times, like
Speaker 2: I think that Kennedy asked it. I'm sure his family
Speaker 2: asked him, you know, anyone who talked to him, you know,
Speaker 2: when the FBI talked to him, and the profilers talked
Speaker 2: to him, the forensic psychiatrists talk to him. I'm sure
Speaker 2: that all of the times that he talked about what
Speaker 2: he did, the why he did it would invariably come up.
Speaker 2: And you know, I don't know if any of the
Speaker 2: answers that he gave really satisfied necessarily because, as you say,
Speaker 2: you know, he didn't have an abusive background. He didn't
Speaker 2: have parents who didn't love him or give him enough attention.
Speaker 2: You know, he had a dad that worked pretty hard
Speaker 2: and wasn't around a lot. He had a mother who
Speaker 2: had some mental problems, that suffered from depression and anxiety,
Speaker 2: but hospitalized a few times. I think it was not
Speaker 2: sort of one thing that led him to become what
Speaker 2: he became. I think it was the fact that he
Speaker 2: did spend a lot of time alone. Apparently he was
Speaker 2: a really lonely kid and didn't have a lot of friends,
Speaker 2: seem to have a hard time with being around people
Speaker 2: and be around kids his own age. In school, he
Speaker 2: was always sort of the weird kid, the quiet, shy guy.
Speaker 2: You know, would ocasionally play a prank and try and
Speaker 2: be funny, but most of the time, you know, people
Speaker 2: just kind of ignored him. He's kind of the invisible kid.
Speaker 2: And I think that, you know, there was sort of
Speaker 2: that he was drinking at a pretty young age, like
Speaker 2: by his late teens or mid teens, he was drinking
Speaker 2: pretty much every day. So I think that the fact
Speaker 2: that he was drinking it probably did affect him, and
Speaker 2: maybe it inhibited him a little bit in terms of
Speaker 2: or disinhibited him a little bit in terms of taking
Speaker 2: chances later on when he was killing and killing regularly.
Speaker 2: But in terms of yeah, I mean, it was really
Speaker 2: his sexual desire. Like he was very, very sexual in
Speaker 2: terms of you in masturbateed a lot, and he seemed
Speaker 2: to fantasize a lot. So this loneliness and the fantasy
Speaker 2: life somewhere and there it became very sexual, and it
Speaker 2: became kind of dark and then violent. Not that he
Speaker 2: wanted to impose violence on anybody, but basically what he
Speaker 2: wanted to do was to find a man that he
Speaker 2: was attracted to, incapacitate that man, and then do whatever
Speaker 2: he wanted to them sexually. So you know, these fantasies
Speaker 2: in this darkness sort of stayed with him, and he
Speaker 2: tried to curb it. He tried to, you know, kind
Speaker 2: of make it go away and just sort of try
Speaker 2: and ignore it, and it just sort of kept coming back.
Speaker 2: It kept overwhelming him and to the point where you know,
Speaker 2: he acted it out on it when he was eighteen
Speaker 2: and says and seemed to be quite horrified by what
Speaker 2: he did. And in fact, it stayed with him, the
Speaker 2: guilt of that for all of his life. And he
Speaker 2: managed to go nine years nine ten years between his
Speaker 2: first killing and the second time that he killed, and
Speaker 2: then around that time he was kind of like, he
Speaker 2: kind of well that the second time. Actually he claims
Speaker 2: it was an accident because he was in a hotel
Speaker 2: room with a man. They were both drinking and having sex,
Speaker 2: but then he woke up in the morning and his
Speaker 2: arms were bruised and the guy was dead. He has
Speaker 2: no recollection of he did, but he freely admitted I
Speaker 2: must have killed the guy, because you know, I just
Speaker 2: don't remember it. I blacked out afterwards and I had
Speaker 2: no memory of it. But he took full responsibility for it.
Speaker 2: So then there became this path where he was sort
Speaker 2: of trying to stop himself, but he couldn't stop himself.
Speaker 2: And then, you know, finally he just sort of agreed
Speaker 2: to abandon and he stopped capacity that he might have had,
Speaker 2: and then he was on a regular cycle. He got
Speaker 2: into this habit of going out to the clubs, drinking,
Speaker 2: watching these good looking men dance, trying to do a seduction,
Speaker 2: try and encourage them to come back to his apartment
Speaker 2: and it just became his routine, that was his social
Speaker 2: life essentially.
Speaker 6: Right now, we obviously we know that Jeffrey Dahmer was convicted,
Speaker 6: and we will get to his faithful end in a minute.
Speaker 6: But after this case, not only does Kennedy known as
Speaker 6: the Dahmer detective, but also Kennedy steps into a role
Speaker 6: that's quite different but yet very very important and very
Speaker 6: very satisfying and gratifying to him in his career as
Speaker 6: a police officer. So tell us what Patrick Kennedy does
Speaker 6: after that and what is the beliefs that the police
Speaker 6: need to do.
Speaker 2: Well. He stayed on the police force for about ten
Speaker 2: years after Dahmer, like after they arrested Dahmer, So I
Speaker 2: think it was around two thousand and two thousand and
Speaker 2: one or so that he retired from the police force.
Speaker 2: And he wanted to really sort of take what they
Speaker 2: had learned from the Dahmer case and sort of try
Speaker 2: to make improvements, provide better training for officers, because he said,
Speaker 2: you know, we have all these mistakes that were made
Speaker 2: in terms of you know, the police leaving a victim
Speaker 2: in Dahmer's hands and then that kid basically being killed,
Speaker 2: you know, within half an hour of their leaving, the
Speaker 2: police leaving, and so they wanted to train and he said,
Speaker 2: you know, I know exactly how it happened. He knew
Speaker 2: those offs, and he said, you know, the training that
Speaker 2: they had kind of dictated that it kind of go
Speaker 2: down the way it went down. He wasn't excusing the
Speaker 2: neglect that I think he felt went into the case,
Speaker 2: and I think he thought that, you know, of course,
Speaker 2: hindsight is always twenty twenty, but if he'd been there,
Speaker 2: you know, he probably would have tried to ask some
Speaker 2: more questions, try to ascertain a little bit more information,
Speaker 2: and not just sort of simply left after just a
Speaker 2: few minutes of sort of getting some more answers out
Speaker 2: of Dahmer and trying to get some more answers out
Speaker 2: of this kid. Like you think he thinks he might
Speaker 2: have or possibly could have done a little bit more.
Speaker 2: But basically, his overall observation of that whole situation was that,
Speaker 2: you know, they police were listening to the white guy
Speaker 2: that looked and sounded like they did, and that they
Speaker 2: couldn't understand this kid anyway, so they really kind of
Speaker 2: focused more on what Dahmer was telling them, even though
Speaker 2: there was a woman there and a couple of teenage
Speaker 2: girls who were trying to say to the police, you
Speaker 2: know know, like, listen to us. He is a kid.
Speaker 2: You know, we know him. He goes to our school,
Speaker 2: and they just were not really you know. He feels
Speaker 2: that they were not trained to kind of take in
Speaker 2: the whole thing and to actually know the community that
Speaker 2: they're policing. So these were things that he wanted to
Speaker 2: sort of try and take away from the Dahmer case
Speaker 2: and used to improve things with police in general. So
Speaker 2: after he retired, he actually went down to South America
Speaker 2: and spent some time there working with police and trying
Speaker 2: to get a program together, which is the Police Athletic League,
Speaker 2: And essentially it's a program in the state that is
Speaker 2: geared towards getting police more involved in the communities that
Speaker 2: they are policing and to working with kids and young
Speaker 2: people and to try and encourage healthy choices and healthy
Speaker 2: decisions in terms of choosing a legit life and a
Speaker 2: life of crime, and to sort of be there not
Speaker 2: as the police necessarily, but to sort of be more
Speaker 2: of a part of the community. So in terms of
Speaker 2: what's going on in the States right now, it's actually
Speaker 2: quite interesting because these are all issues that we're dealing with,
Speaker 2: or they had to deal with back twenty five years ago.
Speaker 2: But you know, he was really really committed to police
Speaker 2: having a more positive presence in the community. So he
Speaker 2: really sort of tried to do a lot where there's
Speaker 2: projects where he would travel and talk about this Police
Speaker 2: Athletic League. The reason they called it the Athletic League
Speaker 2: is that initially it was very focused on sports, and
Speaker 2: so Pat Kennedy, being a former basketball player at six
Speaker 2: foot seven, was very passionate about that. So he actually
Speaker 2: organized street games with kids in the community in the
Speaker 2: inner city of Milwaukee, and you know, his coach Kennedy
Speaker 2: as he's running up and down the streets blowing his
Speaker 2: whistle and getting the kids involved. And you know, he
Speaker 2: was very involved with another establishment through his church where
Speaker 2: he would go and it was like an open door
Speaker 2: cafe and people could come in and have at least
Speaker 2: one hot free meal a day. And you know, he
Speaker 2: just really loved being you know, even though he tired
Speaker 2: from being a police officer, I think he was just
Speaker 2: a heart in his heart a cop, and so he
Speaker 2: was sort of at the very end, but he did
Speaker 2: go on also to teach criminology at two universities in Wisconsin,
Speaker 2: and so you know he was really involved in criminal
Speaker 2: justice long after he retired from MYPD.
Speaker 6: Now you say he passed away in April twenty thirteen,
Speaker 6: and you talked about corresponding and connecting with Pat his
Speaker 6: wife's widow, to put this brilliant manuscript and get it
Speaker 6: published and add your own brilliant efforts as well. Tell
Speaker 6: us about who publishes this, who publishes this and how
Speaker 6: people might find out more information about this book? And
Speaker 6: do you do Facebook at a website? How might people
Speaker 6: contact you once they do check out this incredible book.
Speaker 2: Well, people who want to get in touch with me
Speaker 2: to either talk about the book or ask questions about it,
Speaker 2: or purchase the cofee if they want to do it
Speaker 2: directly for me and get a signed coffee, should get
Speaker 2: in touch through poison Very Press at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: The book is going to be available on Amazon, so
Speaker 2: it actually is up there right now, but it's not
Speaker 2: going to be available until the end of July. But
Speaker 2: people can place orders I think right now if they
Speaker 2: want to, and yeah, it's going to be available in
Speaker 2: bookstores and basically any way that you get your hands
Speaker 2: on a book. E copies will be available shortly and
Speaker 2: also possibly an audiobook. So yeah, there's gonna be multiple
Speaker 2: ways and mediums of the book's going to be available.
Speaker 2: But if people contact me through that Gmail address, poison
Speaker 2: Very Press at gmail dot com, then I'd be happy
Speaker 2: to answer any questions that they might have, and if anyone,
Speaker 2: once they've read it, if they want to review it
Speaker 2: and send me a copy, that would be awesome too.
Speaker 6: Right on. Thank you very much for coming on and
Speaker 6: talking about this again. I told the audience this isn't exclusive.
Speaker 6: This is the first time you've spoken about this book
Speaker 6: and the debut of this book. Dahmer Detective, The Investigation
Speaker 6: and Interrogation that shocked the world, the definitive story about
Speaker 6: Jeffrey Dahmer, and the definitive story about the brilliant detective
Speaker 6: Pat Kennedy who got every bit of the shocking story
Speaker 6: from Jeffrey Dahmer. Very very incredible book. Thank you very much,
Speaker 6: Robin for coming on and talking about it today.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Dad.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
Speaker 6: Have a great evening, good night, Niks.