Speaker 1: I'm Ali. I came out after twenty years of marriage
Speaker 1: and I have three kids.
Speaker 2: I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
Speaker 2: out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 1: This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
Speaker 1: and victories that come with it.
Speaker 2: When coming out feels like the end of the world,
Speaker 2: but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 1: This is the Lesbian Chronicles. Welcome to the Lesbian Chronicles.
Speaker 1: This is two fur.
Speaker 3: I know our second episode today.
Speaker 1: This never happened two A days. I think we're doing
Speaker 1: to a day workouts and what I mean not last time.
Speaker 1: We've done this twice twice in one day.
Speaker 3: Oh god, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's been a hot minute.
Speaker 3: It has.
Speaker 1: It's better when you're a person.
Speaker 2: I agree, you know, it is tough to do like
Speaker 2: the what do we're on riverside?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: But yeah, and now.
Speaker 1: Because you have to worry about how your face looks
Speaker 1: when you're like, oh my god, I know.
Speaker 3: Yes, I notice.
Speaker 1: People comment sometimes on the real Oh but your face
Speaker 1: in that one, I can't remember what was said.
Speaker 2: Oh was the age gap if you were like because
Speaker 2: this woman said, twenty year age gap is acceptable.
Speaker 1: It is acceptable. Like, I mean it is, except I
Speaker 1: can't help my face.
Speaker 2: But again, I think when we think of age gaps,
Speaker 2: we're thinking of like the fifteen year old with a
Speaker 2: thirty five year old, you know, yeah, like something like that.
Speaker 3: And that's where I was like, Oh, there was this.
Speaker 1: Thing online recently where I saw this. They have this
Speaker 1: older man. I'm saying, like he's probably sixty five to
Speaker 1: sixty seven, and he's with what looks like Ohen. He's
Speaker 1: with like it looks like a twenty two to twenty
Speaker 1: five year old and they're like celebrating their love and
Speaker 1: like it's the age is just another.
Speaker 3: Together for twenty years.
Speaker 1: Well I literally was thinking yeah, right exactly, But then
Speaker 1: I was thinking the comments like I'm of course like
Speaker 1: my jaw drops and I'm getting judgy quick. And then
Speaker 1: then in the comments, it's like everybody's like that's so beautiful,
Speaker 1: like like acting like this is we've normalized.
Speaker 2: That's so funny because I always go to the comments
Speaker 2: once I see a video. I'm like and I have
Speaker 2: my thoughts yeah, and I'm like, what are everyone else's thoughts?
Speaker 2: And then I'm like, oh, they don't the either match
Speaker 2: or they don't they don't.
Speaker 1: For me, they don't almost they don't.
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh wait, how am I looking at this wrong?
Speaker 1: Like if you're a sixty five year old man and
Speaker 1: he's let's say even he's thirty, let's say I got
Speaker 1: it here. That's I still think there's something kind of
Speaker 1: wrong with that.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Like there's that show Age of Attraction right now on Netflix,
Speaker 2: and I have watched that, and I felt a little
Speaker 2: creeped out when I just got well.
Speaker 3: There's a woman on there.
Speaker 2: I think she's like fifty five maybe, and she's with
Speaker 2: a guy who's like twenty eight, twenty seven, okay, and
Speaker 2: she has a son who's twenty nine.
Speaker 3: That's where I felt really creeped out.
Speaker 2: But I saw this thing that was like that the
Speaker 2: purpose of that show, like the underlying purpose is to
Speaker 2: normalize age gaps, like kind of like a like normal
Speaker 2: how everybody's kind of acting like Epstein's like no big deal, Like.
Speaker 1: Who says no big deal?
Speaker 3: The other side okay, the bubble I'm forgetting to say.
Speaker 2: That's why, like people are trying to sweep it under
Speaker 2: the rug. You know, people will be like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: she's sixteen as if that's.
Speaker 1: Like a sixteen is a baby.
Speaker 4: It is, dude.
Speaker 2: It blows my mind because yeah, sixteen is read write
Speaker 2: exactly my daughter's thirteen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm like yet not even on her radar.
Speaker 1: But why are in the comments everybody was like that's
Speaker 1: so beautiful.
Speaker 4: Like that's just it.
Speaker 3: I know, I don't know how I feel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say max age gap would be fifteen years.
Speaker 2: And if that's for someone who's over the age of thirty.
Speaker 1: You might be upsetting someone right now.
Speaker 2: I'm saying this with her in mind, because that's that's
Speaker 2: less than fifteen true, barely. I had to think if
Speaker 2: it was greater than an equal or less than Jesus.
Speaker 1: Anyway, let's move on to Urban Pie.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Okay.
Speaker 1: So, well, one thing is Urban Pie was in Bar Rescue,
Speaker 1: which we're so proud about, and I haven't seen the
Speaker 1: show yet, but I'm going to watch it with Urban Pie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're showing it tonight. Yeah, okay, so maybe every
Speaker 2: night this weekend. They're showing it at eight o'clock this
Speaker 2: whole air after that. But Urban Pie is a little
Speaker 2: pizza restaurant in the Kirkwood neighborhood of Atlanta, super cute
Speaker 2: and lesbian owned. They had that TV show Bar Rescue
Speaker 2: come in and revamp the place yep, and does it
Speaker 2: looks super cool?
Speaker 1: And it does look super cool. So we're going to
Speaker 1: kick off takeover yeah, April twenty fifth. It starts at
Speaker 1: eight pm or seven pm one, I want to say eight,
Speaker 1: but I know it's early enough that like it's doable.
Speaker 1: It's doable for me who likes to be in bed
Speaker 1: by ten thirty. But we have a kick ass DJ.
Speaker 1: We're taking over the patio. It's going to be it's
Speaker 1: the last Saturday of the month. April twenty fifth. Definitely
Speaker 1: come out Urban Pie Kirkwood.
Speaker 4: We starts at.
Speaker 3: Really seven seven pm.
Speaker 1: And j Phoebe she's amazing. Yeah, I love how she
Speaker 1: dances during dude.
Speaker 3: She's fun to watch.
Speaker 1: She has fun to watch.
Speaker 2: So it's gonna be a good time for sure, because
Speaker 2: y'all she'll like put the song on and then go
Speaker 2: out on the dance floor.
Speaker 1: Totally, so totally it's And then I'm sure the more
Speaker 1: I drink, I annoy the shit out of her with
Speaker 1: like putting my suggestions for the request.
Speaker 3: I DJ that one time and everybody's like up my nose.
Speaker 4: Like can you play this? Can you play this?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I don't have Wi Fi and I
Speaker 2: have to, like you have to download the songs and
Speaker 2: play them. It's not like everybody, I think thinks it's
Speaker 2: like a Spotify situation.
Speaker 1: There's like a couple though, hit that. I know this
Speaker 1: group so well now from Takeover. Oh yeah, there's a
Speaker 1: few like you gotta do gold Digger, you gotta do
Speaker 1: Whitney Houston.
Speaker 3: If you hit those, you're good.
Speaker 1: It's a great part.
Speaker 4: Solid.
Speaker 1: But it's like sometimes the DJs go off the menu
Speaker 1: and they try to do a little elect like dance.
Speaker 2: What do you call the dm Yeah, it's just sandstorm.
Speaker 2: I'm not getting out there.
Speaker 1: I don't even know that's ADM, right, I guess what's that?
Speaker 1: Can you?
Speaker 3: Oh my god, stop leave me alone.
Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. Okay, So you found our guests.
Speaker 2: I met them while I was visiting Texas and a
Speaker 2: lovely couple that has been together for what five years?
Speaker 3: Mary and Jennifer, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4: Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we decided we talk far too much about breakups
Speaker 1: and unhappiness that I needed a blended, happy, workout family seriously,
Speaker 1: and people actually do say that, They're like, does it
Speaker 1: ever work out? Because you guys, it seems like we
Speaker 1: always are talking about breaking up, so we want to know,
Speaker 1: like how you met, Like, give us a little background,
Speaker 1: give us first start where you came out, and then
Speaker 1: we'll talk about the Yeah, the meeting. Let's start with Jennifer.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think our two stories are
Speaker 4: quite different.
Speaker 5: We just happened to collide at the same time in
Speaker 5: twenty twenty one. But yeah, mine was I had been
Speaker 5: in a twenty year marriage and you know, got married
Speaker 5: young and did the family thing, had a few kids,
Speaker 5: and after you know, waking up and reading Untamed and
Speaker 5: you know, having that life changing event, I just couldn't
Speaker 5: see the world the same and started reevaluating everything. And
Speaker 5: I in twenty twenty one decided to you know, upend
Speaker 5: everything and I asked my husband for a divorce and
Speaker 5: we started down that process with the kids.
Speaker 1: And how long does that take from untamed to six
Speaker 1: months building up your courage?
Speaker 4: Okay, oh, reading Untamed and courage weeks?
Speaker 1: Wow?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was fast.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think I was probably real fast to
Speaker 5: get out of the gate and start trying to act out.
Speaker 4: Being with women.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I was embarrassingly eager for that, if I'm honest, But it.
Speaker 2: Was gonna say that's not embarrassing everybody, is we all
Speaker 2: turn into like.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh the total fourteen year old boy right away.
Speaker 5: But yeah, it was real quick, and I you know,
Speaker 5: I think it was just the straw that broke the
Speaker 5: camel's back. I mean, I think there was many reasons
Speaker 5: probably to part ways, and really it was just about
Speaker 5: trying to live my authentic life and be true to
Speaker 5: who I was. It was something that I think I
Speaker 5: touched in college and I didn't get to fully act
Speaker 5: out then and it just kind of set dormant. And
Speaker 5: I was like, I want to go revisit that, but
Speaker 5: outside of marriage, and so I did and asked for
Speaker 5: a divorce.
Speaker 4: We started that process.
Speaker 5: We did it in a collaborative way, which was really
Speaker 5: good for the kids, and so we co parent well.
Speaker 5: And then I started dating a woman and did that
Speaker 5: for about six months.
Speaker 4: But it was interesting.
Speaker 5: I felt like, rather than making myself fully available, I
Speaker 5: only wanted to date married women.
Speaker 3: Interesting.
Speaker 4: Wow. Yeah, with the idea being that I was very
Speaker 4: busy with my work.
Speaker 3: It was safe.
Speaker 4: It's very right.
Speaker 2: I thought you meant like you wanted the ones that
Speaker 2: were taken, but it was like a safety thing.
Speaker 4: No, I wanted them to be married to men. I
Speaker 4: wanted them.
Speaker 1: Did you know it like in your head you were
Speaker 1: doing that or was it like in after therapy you're like, wow,
Speaker 1: I was picking out available people because I really wasn't
Speaker 1: available yet.
Speaker 4: It was both. Yeah, I think I didn't want to
Speaker 4: be fully.
Speaker 5: I didn't want to be number one to anyone because
Speaker 5: I didn't have space for them to be a number one.
Speaker 5: I was busy with work, I was busy with my kids.
Speaker 5: I knew I had just blown up my family and
Speaker 5: I didn't have space for it. And I'm I didn't
Speaker 5: want someone wanting me more than I could want them.
Speaker 4: I needed them to be, you know, safely away.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: How old was your youngest when you Denye? Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 5: So it was hard, but it was a safe thing.
Speaker 5: So the first relationship was very transactional and it worked
Speaker 5: great for what it was there to do. And then
Speaker 5: that you know, fizzled out and I I had a
Speaker 5: friend took a picture, one picture and she was like,
Speaker 5: you need to get on the apps, and so one
Speaker 5: night I did, and then I just got real lucky
Speaker 5: and met Mary.
Speaker 1: So wow, okay, so yeah tell us Mary, give us
Speaker 1: your background.
Speaker 6: Yeah, mine is a little messier, maybe lots of things
Speaker 6: that maybe wouldn't advise.
Speaker 1: So's you I love Wooden advice.
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, this is what we need to hear.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: So like when I so, I was same, I was married.
Speaker 6: I was married for ten ten plus years, but say
Speaker 6: that relationship. We took ten years to get married, so
Speaker 6: we were together for like, oh I was married for
Speaker 6: what fourteen years?
Speaker 7: How you forget? This was about like twenty four year relationship.
Speaker 6: But when I was like twenty twenty one, twenty two,
Speaker 6: he was like, I think you're attracted to women that. Yeah,
Speaker 6: we weren't married at the time, but yeah, he pointed
Speaker 6: it out, and I was like, well yeah, but you know,
Speaker 6: there's just not anyone who's like she should explore that,
Speaker 6: you know, before we get married, before we have kids.
Speaker 6: I was like, oh, that just feels unsafe, right. I
Speaker 6: was like worried just physical safety. So I just never
Speaker 6: touched it. And then in twenty eighteen, I just like
Speaker 6: left job and I was kind of in a space where, like,
Speaker 6: you know, I just need to figure things out. And yeah,
Speaker 6: and I went to the gym, and I kept going
Speaker 6: to this one instructor's class and then one day I
Speaker 6: was like, you know, at academy, trying on cute workout
Speaker 6: outfits and I'm like, what am I doing?
Speaker 7: And I was like, oh, oh wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 7: So I went home and I told him.
Speaker 6: I was like, hey, remember that conversation we had back
Speaker 6: when I was twenty one, Like I found someone?
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 6: I was like, well, why do you ask her out
Speaker 6: when you go to dinner? And I'm like, well, I
Speaker 6: don't want to go to dinner with her, that's not
Speaker 6: That's not what I'm thinking about. And so he's like, well,
Speaker 6: you're free, rein, and so we kind of that was
Speaker 6: the start of an open relationship for me.
Speaker 7: Like how but what.
Speaker 1: He wasn't threatened at all?
Speaker 6: He he wasn't, I think because we had talked about
Speaker 6: this and and I'll say from that time for like
Speaker 6: twenty one up till how old am I at that
Speaker 6: time forty two? He like very very open about being
Speaker 6: attracted to women, Like I mean, honestly, all I did
Speaker 6: was watch lest me important, Yeah, constantly, Like he was
Speaker 6: aware of this, so it wasn't a big surprise to him,
Speaker 6: and I think maybe kind of a relief that it
Speaker 6: was just like out there, and so he's like.
Speaker 7: Go, go pursue this.
Speaker 6: So my my pursuit was to go stand in the
Speaker 6: front row of this woman's classes for six months and
Speaker 6: just stare at.
Speaker 7: Her very embarrassing, made her comfortable.
Speaker 6: No, not at all super straight, And another friend in
Speaker 6: class was like, she's super straight, and like well, and and.
Speaker 7: My attitude at the time was like, it's all right,
Speaker 7: I will be persuasive. Like I just was so focused.
Speaker 6: I think, well, my dream job had just like I
Speaker 6: had been unemployed and then my dream job like fell
Speaker 6: out of the sky and I was like, I just
Speaker 6: have to ask for it and asked the universe for it.
Speaker 7: And I told him that and he was like, I
Speaker 7: don't think it works that way.
Speaker 6: So anyway, finally, after six months in that working, he's like, well,
Speaker 6: why are you get on the apps?
Speaker 7: So I did? He said this, yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 6: No, no, you don't want a question, you don't want.
Speaker 7: To have him.
Speaker 6: So then we started sort of outlining what an open
Speaker 6: relationship would look like with me dating like dating, My
Speaker 6: rule was like no and the way I kind of
Speaker 6: justified it was I'm not a non monogamous person, highly monogamous.
Speaker 7: But and I will just.
Speaker 6: Put in there that this relationship should have ended. Of course,
Speaker 6: like six months into it. Having started, the relationship was
Speaker 6: not good. It's like pretty much a sexless marriage. So
Speaker 6: I think for him this was like a way to
Speaker 6: like reactivate all of that. So there were rules around,
Speaker 6: like if I had sex with a woman, then I
Speaker 6: had to come home and do the same thing, which
Speaker 6: was awful, but so there are lots of rules around that,
Speaker 6: like complete transparency, so he always knew like where you
Speaker 6: are stating yes, and so what felt good to me
Speaker 6: was not lying about it. Yeah, right, So there was
Speaker 6: never any like cheating, And initially I just figured I'd
Speaker 6: just be super transactional and so for two plus years
Speaker 6: I was on as many apps as I could get on,
Speaker 6: and I like, I was like constantly checking them and
Speaker 6: going on multiple dates a week and and that's like fascinating.
Speaker 7: Yeah it was.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 7: I have lots of crazy dating stories. It was kind
Speaker 7: of awful.
Speaker 1: And were you like because like if I'm you, like,
Speaker 1: I remember when I came out, I was so excited
Speaker 1: about these women, but I would date that. It's like,
Speaker 1: I think then my husband would have gotten me. Never
Speaker 1: there'd be no weekend night I'd be home with them
Speaker 1: because I would want to be with my catalyst.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Well, luckily I had a kiddo, so she she was nine.
Speaker 6: I think when all that started about eight, yeah, eight
Speaker 6: to nine, and then eleven when we ended up getting divorced.
Speaker 6: But it's right, so I'm balancing kidd activities and like
Speaker 6: work and also totally yeah, and also like as you
Speaker 6: guys have talked about, like women are flaky. So it
Speaker 6: was so hard, like for so the six months I
Speaker 6: spent staring at her on the stage that didn't turn
Speaker 6: into anything, and then dating it took a very long
Speaker 6: time online before it materialized into it like anybody that
Speaker 6: I that would ever stick. Yeah, And so the first
Speaker 6: experience was like physically not very satisfying, but I'm like, oh,
Speaker 6: I will never not do this. I came home and
Speaker 6: said that, like, I am absolutely never not do this.
Speaker 7: But it never.
Speaker 6: It didn't occur to me because I hadn't done it.
Speaker 6: I hadn't executed on a divorce for twenty four years
Speaker 6: or twenty two years at that point It never occurred
Speaker 6: to me that like this was what was going to
Speaker 6: break it. I was like, oh, I can just I
Speaker 6: can just do this. I can be transactional with my
Speaker 6: men for a long time, and then over the two years,
Speaker 6: what I learned is I was always looking for something.
Speaker 6: I'm like, where is the connection? There's not enough connection
Speaker 6: with this person, Like Y person doesn't work for me.
Speaker 6: I'm going to move on because I'm looking for more.
Speaker 1: Like you're texting, like would it be like a relationship
Speaker 1: board and it's transactional? Is it literally I'm going to
Speaker 1: meet you Saturday night and sleep with you? Or was
Speaker 1: it like we're texting I'm excited.
Speaker 6: To see yeah, texting excited to see like dates like yeah,
Speaker 6: And I mean there were some people you know, went
Speaker 6: on like camping trips with and like you know, like
Speaker 6: slept over.
Speaker 1: And dream building. Maybe you would believe for them.
Speaker 4: Not without it.
Speaker 6: No, I got not with any not until I met
Speaker 6: not until I met you. But I like, so things
Speaker 6: had just gotten really awful and dating like I just
Speaker 6: felt it just felt empty, right, I was like, there
Speaker 6: there was a per Then I started to kind of
Speaker 6: develop feelings for and she was super avoidant and it
Speaker 6: was awful, and that started making me like reflect on
Speaker 6: what was going on at my marriage, like seeing the
Speaker 6: parallels there, and so I just took a pause like
Speaker 6: a stunt, like it was when January twenty twenty one, Yeah,
Speaker 6: started going to therapy and just took a long break.
Speaker 6: And it was kind of right when I had gotten
Speaker 6: back into dating when we met the same Yeah, I'm bumble.
Speaker 7: I saw your picture.
Speaker 6: You put like a very tiny picture I could barely
Speaker 6: see in very few words, and I always optimize.
Speaker 7: I put as many words and as many pictures.
Speaker 6: As I could possibly put. Yeah, But then you were
Speaker 6: just like such a good communicator, Like that was like
Speaker 6: that was so hard in dating is that people were
Speaker 6: like once you connected, then maybe they communicate, but then
Speaker 6: they disappear for days on end.
Speaker 7: You just so like a constant communication.
Speaker 3: Yeah, It's like would be so hard.
Speaker 2: I think that's such a like a red flag like
Speaker 2: that people can tell early on but they.
Speaker 7: Don't pick up on. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is like if someone's not responsive, they're not excited.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and actually you say red flag like after therapy,
Speaker 6: I and after that experience with that one woman, I
Speaker 6: literally had a list called avoidant red flags and then
Speaker 6: when I got back on dating, like any of those.
Speaker 3: I saw, I was like, why, yeah, good for you,
Speaker 3: that's smart.
Speaker 6: But then I also had an ideal girlfriend list because
Speaker 6: at the time, I'm still thinking I'm just still gonna ever,
Speaker 6: I'm just gonna have a girlfriend. But I want, like
Speaker 6: I have now said to my husband at the time,
Speaker 6: like I want to be in love with a woman.
Speaker 7: That's where I have gotten to.
Speaker 6: I want a life with a woman, not just but
Speaker 6: I didn't say not a lie different. So I'm still
Speaker 6: thinking I can do that in the context of his
Speaker 6: marriage where there's no sex anymore, and there's like no.
Speaker 3: And he's okay with this, he's not like dating.
Speaker 6: Or no, he's not dating, and he has said like
Speaker 6: I did not sign up to be a monk.
Speaker 7: That's fair, So then I would feel guilty.
Speaker 6: But but it just it felt so so wrong.
Speaker 2: Did I offer for him to be able to date,
Speaker 2: Like in the same similar SCENEY and I did.
Speaker 6: Get to the point and I was like, look, if
Speaker 6: what you need to do is date, fine, right, because
Speaker 6: my I had fallen out of love with him many many,
Speaker 6: many years ago. And I always tell you, like I
Speaker 6: used to stare out the kitchen window, and like, surely
Speaker 6: this is not what I'm supposed to be doing, not
Speaker 6: my life, Like I don't know how I ended up here,
Speaker 6: but here I am, but I didn't. I still was
Speaker 6: just doing it in the safe bubble of this open
Speaker 6: relationship and transactional I thought I could go just as
Speaker 6: just as far as like having a girlfriend who didn't
Speaker 6: date anybody else either.
Speaker 3: Story, no hold bar.
Speaker 5: And then we met for lunch and yeah, this is
Speaker 5: the eticenter of you know, I want my cake and
Speaker 5: eat it too, right, So yeah, we meet for lunch
Speaker 5: the first.
Speaker 1: Time, but had you been talking before, like texting?
Speaker 5: We did like a week of texting, right, and then
Speaker 5: it's like we both want to meet. I mean right,
Speaker 5: I came out of the gate like I have no
Speaker 5: complaints about the lesbian dating scene. I've I've done two
Speaker 5: for two purpose, right, and it's been great. And but yeah,
Speaker 5: meeting her, she she kind of came with the you know,
Speaker 5: I want heat, heat and warmth. And I'm like, you're talking.
Speaker 4: About you have a nice.
Speaker 1: Smile and use those words.
Speaker 5: M Yeah, yeah, she wants heat and warmth, and like,
Speaker 5: you know, I want to feel connection and like all
Speaker 5: I'm like I'm like, you're married.
Speaker 4: All I said I wanted was.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, and so anyway, but you know, she's going
Speaker 5: on on about being a flower and needing sunshine, hours
Speaker 5: of sunshine.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then she's like she's like, well you can
Speaker 4: you know I'm dying.
Speaker 7: I am dying.
Speaker 3: It's hilarious.
Speaker 5: Yeah, She's like, well, she's like, you know I have
Speaker 5: a husband, you know, so if you want a boyfriend.
Speaker 4: I'm like, you're not reading the room right that business Like.
Speaker 5: I told her, I was like, you know, she's asking me,
Speaker 5: like she wanted to know how into women. I was
Speaker 5: right because I was kind of new to the scene.
Speaker 5: I'm like, it's intoxicating.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I.
Speaker 5: Will run through a burning buildings to get it. Yeah,
Speaker 5: that's just what I'm going to do. She's like, okay,
Speaker 5: you're a lesbian.
Speaker 4: Great that.
Speaker 5: But then she's like, if you can have a boyfriend.
Speaker 5: I'm just like looking at her.
Speaker 6: Like, yeah, that was coming from like a physics, like
Speaker 6: super jealous right, Like I knew that, Like.
Speaker 3: You didn't want to say you can have another girl friend?
Speaker 7: No, it was absolutely that. It was like you cannot
Speaker 7: no other girls?
Speaker 1: But is this date one?
Speaker 7: This is date one, like.
Speaker 1: You guys are like getting your drinks? Are you leaving
Speaker 1: that date? Like we have whatever?
Speaker 4: You have to do?
Speaker 7: This kind of show.
Speaker 1: Like if I had a date with someone, I think,
Speaker 1: like I'm so cerebral and like I think I would
Speaker 1: be like texting Melissa under the table like dude called me.
Speaker 3: She'd be going to the bathroom so much. They'd be
Speaker 3: like she has a cocaine prop.
Speaker 1: Okay, So how did you just get to date number
Speaker 1: two after all this flower talk?
Speaker 5: Well, I was like like transaction, Like, I mean she's married, right,
Speaker 5: this is yeah, what is doing? Yeah, like she's tied up. Great,
Speaker 5: I'll see you next Tuesday. So we saw each other
Speaker 5: next Tuesday. I went to dinner and do.
Speaker 1: You guys see you next tuesday?
Speaker 4: Oh my god, that's next tuesday, next Tuesday.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: So then you go, but you go on the second
Speaker 1: date thinking I'm gonna get laid, like this is it? Okay,
Speaker 1: And you're going thinking I'm about to get water eight hours.
Speaker 6: But also, I mean I've been doing I started transactionally,
Speaker 6: like I was very clear from the beginning, like that
Speaker 6: is awesome going to happen. That's that's that's why I'm
Speaker 6: here and so that that did happen, and that was great,
Speaker 6: And then we both had two trips already planned.
Speaker 5: Right, I had, yeah, tell that I had a trip
Speaker 5: with my ex girlfriend.
Speaker 1: Thickens.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, because she was married and we both had kids.
Speaker 5: She she was not being honest with her spouse, and
Speaker 5: so this is what she was married too. She had
Speaker 5: been married too. Yeah, this is my formula. Yeah, this
Speaker 5: is I'm not here to sell it. It's not it's
Speaker 5: not work. Yeah, but anyway, yeah, I know. I So
Speaker 5: her idea was that, hey, if we incorporate the kids
Speaker 5: on some of these trips, I can get away with
Speaker 5: a lot more. I was like, okay, again, I'm naive.
Speaker 5: I'm like new to all this, and I'm like one
Speaker 5: track mind, And can I ask.
Speaker 1: You one more thing? Because your mom like to me,
Speaker 1: like mom's like moms are like it's a hot thing
Speaker 1: to be a mom, but like it's unattractive if you're
Speaker 1: a bad mom. Like if I sense that, like you
Speaker 1: kind of aren't that good of a mom. I'm kind
Speaker 1: of you're like doing.
Speaker 2: A little bit too much to sacrifice yea thing with me,
Speaker 2: Like the kids are in a closet.
Speaker 1: The car, like, hey, we can bring these assholes along
Speaker 1: and then I.
Speaker 7: Can go on the trip.
Speaker 3: I've got Benadro.
Speaker 4: Melotona and I'll take care of it.
Speaker 1: Okay, was that but that you just you were in
Speaker 1: the transaction and we were transactional.
Speaker 4: She's a good person.
Speaker 5: She was a good mom, and we took the kids
Speaker 5: to go do fun things, like we went on trips
Speaker 5: and and then we had a great time and the
Speaker 5: kids had a good time and they played together. But interestingly,
Speaker 5: that's kind of where the relationship was ending and had ended,
Speaker 5: had ended, and it kind of overlaps with meeting Mary.
Speaker 4: So in that way I had to, you know, kind
Speaker 4: of wind things up with her and that then I
Speaker 4: was home free. But yeah, she was a good mom.
Speaker 4: It was all fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that reminds me a lot of like my first
Speaker 2: relationship because she was a mom too, and it was
Speaker 2: like it was this admirable thing about her because she
Speaker 2: had older kids and I was just like, man, she's
Speaker 2: such a good mom, and like I was going through
Speaker 2: it and she was like so helpful in that respect,
Speaker 2: and we were doing a lot of the whole like
Speaker 2: let's take the kids on a trip, like all these things,
Speaker 2: so I can see.
Speaker 3: How this was how it happened, Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: And also I think it's interesting too about you guys
Speaker 2: talking about the transactional thing, Like I'm wondering how common
Speaker 2: this is because the way you're describing it, I'm like
Speaker 2: this may I feel like this makes sense in my brain,
Speaker 2: Like if I go back to past, Melissa.
Speaker 1: Like you were picking people that well, No.
Speaker 2: I could see it being like, Okay, this gives me.
Speaker 2: I never looked at it this way, but I could
Speaker 2: see the way your view of it, you know, being
Speaker 2: like I can preserve my marriage, my kids are fine,
Speaker 2: the kids don't have to experience divorce exactly.
Speaker 3: I can do my thing. Yeah, I can have fun.
Speaker 7: It was absolutely, But she's also.
Speaker 1: Asking for something like connection, which is hard to get
Speaker 1: when you're half.
Speaker 7: In yes and the other people are half in yeah.
Speaker 6: And this is what you've said too, It's like you're
Speaker 6: surprised at it that Like I primarily dated, and I
Speaker 6: went on a ton of dates with women who were
Speaker 6: married to men right and in many and my requirement
Speaker 6: was that they were also open and honest with their husbands.
Speaker 6: Now fair, maybe they weren't all being truthful about that,
Speaker 6: but there is a there are a lot of people
Speaker 6: out there and it's say, it feels safer, right, Yes,
Speaker 6: you don't have to throw your life into up people
Speaker 6: and you and you feel like you're checking the box
Speaker 6: of what you need. But then for some of us,
Speaker 6: and for me, you start to realize, like, well, that
Speaker 6: is not the fundamental thing that I need and want,
Speaker 6: which is a full life of the woman. You can't
Speaker 6: get that in a transactional.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there are a lot of people on the
Speaker 2: dating apps that want that. I think that's what they
Speaker 2: initially think that they want.
Speaker 3: Some of them do want that.
Speaker 1: That's it.
Speaker 2: That's fine, it's fulfilling. They're bisexual purely. But it's interesting
Speaker 2: to me because so often the times that I have
Speaker 2: been on the apps, I've noticed that it's like the
Speaker 2: man wants to be involved a husband, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: Going to watch you know, like, were you seeing a
Speaker 3: lot of that?
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's some of that for sure.
Speaker 6: I mean with my husband at the time, he understood
Speaker 6: the right from the beginning.
Speaker 3: He wasn't like I get he would have loved.
Speaker 6: That to happen, and I shut that down immediately. That's
Speaker 6: that's not what this is about. This is for me
Speaker 6: and nobody that I dated ever had their husbands or
Speaker 6: male partners involved. But there were plenty of people that
Speaker 6: I connected with on the apps who were like, well,
Speaker 6: oh I did remember one day I showed up and
Speaker 6: she was like, I didn't want to tell you this
Speaker 6: because I didn't want to scare you off.
Speaker 7: I'm like, well that is not a good way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 6: My husband lives in North Carolina, but he wants to
Speaker 6: watch via video and I'm like hard.
Speaker 7: No, you know, I had to show.
Speaker 3: Up and be like, my dad is a serial killer.
Speaker 7: Like yeah, there's a lot.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's so many other things that much rather
Speaker 2: you say, than my husband wants to watch.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean there's just a lot of that.
Speaker 1: Take us back to lunch, so then you're the lunch
Speaker 1: and you're leaving the lunch.
Speaker 6: Like, wow, she's awesome, she's amazing. Yes, she get I
Speaker 6: wrote down in my phone. I was like warm hugs,
Speaker 6: like warm, genuine hugs.
Speaker 3: Because you're a note taker, and I like.
Speaker 6: About her voice and all the things. I and I
Speaker 6: skipped home and I was like oh this is good. Yeah,
Speaker 6: and then we and then we just can from that
Speaker 6: night like right, like.
Speaker 4: Yes you yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: So we had the two trips, I went off and
Speaker 5: then you went off. And but the conversation before that
Speaker 5: as we left, right like we had a couple of
Speaker 5: nights together one was pretty pivotal, and in that we
Speaker 5: we started realizing that maybe this wasn't gonna be able
Speaker 5: to just stay in transactional land. And and you asked me,
Speaker 5: you know, where do we see it's going? And I'm like, well,
Speaker 5: you have a capacity problem, yeah, totally. And so we
Speaker 5: did simple math for a bit and I and I said, no,
Speaker 5: I have I have full capacity.
Speaker 7: It's just like I don't. I don't understand that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So I you know, I was trying to explain
Speaker 6: and I didn't have the words for it yet. Right
Speaker 6: like I had planned this trip. I'm going, I'm driving
Speaker 6: off to Arkansas by myself to go hiking like for
Speaker 6: a week. And We're talking on the phone like the
Speaker 6: whole seven hours, and I'm like, I want you like
Speaker 6: I and I have full room for that.
Speaker 7: You know, you just didn't understand that.
Speaker 6: But I don't understand that well because I and what
Speaker 6: I have come to understand right is that that trip
Speaker 6: was crucial for me. Right I had this space without you,
Speaker 6: my husband at the time, no kids. I'm like stuck
Speaker 6: in Arizona in an air maybe by myself, and I
Speaker 6: just thought a lot, and we talked all the time,
Speaker 6: and it just was like an unfolding.
Speaker 7: I was kind of like watching it happen.
Speaker 4: I was.
Speaker 6: I tried to go back and find notes from that time,
Speaker 6: like maybe what I'd written my therapist or taken down
Speaker 6: for myself, and I didn't. I don't think I analyzed
Speaker 6: it so much as I just let it like unfold
Speaker 6: and feel. And I'm like, oh, I've been done with
Speaker 6: that relationship for so long. And the reason I was
Speaker 6: holding on was for my kiddo, Like I just could
Speaker 6: not bear right, this is my only and I just
Speaker 6: couldn't bear to break that up. And again my parents
Speaker 6: were both divorced, my parents parents, and like you know,
Speaker 6: we always just said right and so. But then I
Speaker 6: just couldn't I couldn't not see was what I was
Speaker 6: feeling was in front of me.
Speaker 1: Was that like over a course of like you guys
Speaker 1: have been talking for like months or was it like weeks.
Speaker 7: Two weeks, weeks, two weeks, maybe Okay, are.
Speaker 1: You starting to buy in or are you like.
Speaker 4: Whatever one I brought up right. I mean I'm an auditor.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I I didn't say that, but but I knew
Speaker 5: that your time process would would would be extensive. And
Speaker 5: I knew what you were about to go through because
Speaker 5: I had just gone through it, and I really you know,
Speaker 5: I came to you and I said, hey, if I
Speaker 5: need to back off, like, I don't want you making
Speaker 5: this decision for me because again because I've told you,
Speaker 5: I don't really have full capacity. That's why I wanted
Speaker 5: to date it ethically not monogamous woman, like the idea
Speaker 5: that that space exists out there. You know, we talk
Speaker 5: often about how lesbians can have like you know, if
Speaker 5: you're a gay man, you know, you'd go on a
Speaker 5: day with a girl, doesn't go well, and you end
Speaker 5: up putting up with a guy and like the girl,
Speaker 5: you'll never touch another girl again.
Speaker 4: That's just their path. Whereas a woman.
Speaker 5: Has like eighty off shoots and eighty renditions to be
Speaker 5: ethically non monogamous bisexual dating with benefits like all these
Speaker 5: different ways to be a lesbian or or live into
Speaker 5: that space where it whereas being a gay man's more
Speaker 5: binary and so for her, like I knew what I
Speaker 5: was meeting, but I didn't think that she would ever
Speaker 5: really jump over and live life as a lesbian.
Speaker 4: So I wasn't holding my breath. Okay.
Speaker 2: I think that's a good point though, because I think
Speaker 2: there is like a very defined difference between like someone
Speaker 2: who is fully like I am gay, this is it, yeah,
Speaker 2: and someone who is kind of teetering and because there's
Speaker 2: so many consequences that come with that decision.
Speaker 7: Yeah you're saying, yeah, kid, I mean yeah, of course.
Speaker 6: And both of us had grown up like in Texas
Speaker 6: not gay, right, Like.
Speaker 1: You weren't thinking you were bisexual at this point, you know,
Speaker 1: we thinking you were just staying for him, not really
Speaker 1: because you wanted to date other men. It was only
Speaker 1: women you explored.
Speaker 7: Only women I was ever going to explore.
Speaker 6: But I really, like was super hesitant to use the
Speaker 6: word lesbian, Like that wasn't until we had been together
Speaker 6: for the little bit, because I was like, well, I
Speaker 6: have to maintain that I'm bisexual because I'm married to
Speaker 6: a man.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I've had this.
Speaker 6: Long relationship, and I really wrestled with that term today. Yeah,
Speaker 6: and now I fully embrace it, and I'm like, of course,
Speaker 6: I've been mean since I was born in and then
Speaker 6: you follow the trails back, right, would we call them
Speaker 6: like the little breadcrumbs? Yeah, you're like, oh yeah, And
Speaker 6: I was seven at that sleepover, like, oh.
Speaker 1: That college basket was.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: But I do think that there is something to say,
Speaker 2: like to that lesbian label, not only it being like
Speaker 2: kind of uncomfortable, but also like I felt obligated to
Speaker 2: say it in a way the bisexual label of like
Speaker 2: honoring the relationship that I had.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know there's.
Speaker 1: Something that stood up in front of the church everybody.
Speaker 2: And it's like I didn't know what I didn't know, yeah,
Speaker 2: and it's just like I want to honor that.
Speaker 3: But then at the same time, I'm like, that wasn't me.
Speaker 6: Oh, I think like once I did embrace it, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 6: I that was never me. I mean, you don't have
Speaker 6: a sexist marriage for no reason, right, Like I was
Speaker 6: not interested, very clearly non interested. And then I look
Speaker 6: back and I was like, oh, I was never really
Speaker 6: interested in boys. I was interested in.
Speaker 7: The attention for boys and like and wanting the connection.
Speaker 7: I love my baby.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 7: At one point as me, if I was with him.
Speaker 6: Only to get pregnant, I was like, oh, maybe I
Speaker 6: would have chosen so much.
Speaker 7: Better the case that in the other gym.
Speaker 6: Do you remember that one was like He's like, I've
Speaker 6: been basically a monk, Like can't you just be a
Speaker 6: nonpracticing lesbian?
Speaker 7: And I was like, oh no.
Speaker 1: Boy, I can't do it.
Speaker 7: I will never.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, then you get your so then you decide on
Speaker 1: this pivotal tripe you're gonna you can be a man.
Speaker 1: And at this point, are you like, all right, well
Speaker 1: call me when you leave him, or you like, what
Speaker 1: are you thinking?
Speaker 4: I show up for transactional Tuesday?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 5: I just yeah, No, I mean it started appointment. Oh,
Speaker 5: I mean yeah, you start feeling the feels, right thin.
Speaker 5: I think as a woman, the idea that I was
Speaker 5: ever going to be able to be transactional fully was bullshit, right, I.
Speaker 4: Mean, I'm female, right at the end of the day,
Speaker 4: I mean, and so I did.
Speaker 5: I started developing really strong feelings for you, and we
Speaker 5: just started building a concurrent life together, dating slowly. I
Speaker 5: think the only thing that prevented the U all from
Speaker 5: showing up was your marriage and right and and I'm
Speaker 5: thankful for that. Right we had these kids but to
Speaker 5: throttle for and and we were able to do that
Speaker 5: really well? And yeah, I mean it took like six
Speaker 5: months for your divorce to process, and that is quick.
Speaker 6: I made it real quick. I basically said sign here.
Speaker 6: He said, will you do it for me?
Speaker 7: And I said no, you're gonna have to put your
Speaker 7: name on that, and he did.
Speaker 6: But that was like, gosh, I mean I told him
Speaker 6: that I wanted to divorce. What's six weeks in? Yeah,
Speaker 6: six weeks in and then finally told my daughter like
Speaker 6: a couple days after Christmas.
Speaker 7: That was awful.
Speaker 1: That's horrible.
Speaker 7: That was awful.
Speaker 6: And then think that just got messy because he didn't.
Speaker 6: I just expected him to show up better. Like I
Speaker 6: understand you're disappointed with how this is, but can't you
Speaker 6: see like for many many reasons, not only am my gay,
Speaker 6: but this was never this wasn't a good relationship and
Speaker 6: let's let's be good, right, Like you guys are great
Speaker 6: at being co parents and amicable, and we just aren't,
Speaker 6: like we barely communicate now.
Speaker 7: And then it was just.
Speaker 5: Wild to me considered that's just wild to me, considering
Speaker 5: like how intimate y'all were along the way, and then
Speaker 5: the second, the second it flipped and I get it right,
Speaker 5: like losing your wife and the and the deal is
Speaker 5: going to make you close up. But the fact that
Speaker 5: you guys couldn't co parent, you know, and negotiate all
Speaker 5: that collaboratively was kind of shocking.
Speaker 4: I think that threw you in the process.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I just fully expected him to show
Speaker 6: up kind of the way he always had in terms
Speaker 6: of open communication, like let's let's partner on this, but
Speaker 6: he collapsed and pulled my daughter in to kind of
Speaker 6: you know, so he it was that, yeah, And he
Speaker 6: presented himself as like the person who was always going
Speaker 6: to be there for her and she was his number
Speaker 6: one priority, I mean to this day. I mean he
Speaker 6: think he wrote something out that said I will never
Speaker 6: date well you were you know, not in college and
Speaker 6: you know.
Speaker 7: Still around, so never has and just a victim.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, And I mean it was it was so clear.
Speaker 6: I mean, I have ton of regrets in terms of
Speaker 6: that relationship, right, which I'd never started it, which I'd
Speaker 6: never continued it, and whish i'd ended a lot sooner,
Speaker 6: in which it hadn't been on top of right, Like,
Speaker 6: so my daughter had to hear about divorce.
Speaker 7: I mean she looked at me and said, it's Jennifer right.
Speaker 6: And because she knew how old was she at the time,
Speaker 6: she was eleven at a time. Yeah, and then and
Speaker 6: then that impacted Yeah soon Uber Frosty for I think.
Speaker 1: Also, I know about like the one child, three child dynamic,
Speaker 1: and I don't care how you play it, there is
Speaker 1: a difference. But this you probably hate this, But kids
Speaker 1: that don't have to negotiate because they're alone, They've never
Speaker 1: had to negotiate anything, whether there's four ice cubes in
Speaker 1: the cup, or my kids are getting knocked over, pummeled, tripped,
Speaker 1: their backpack is stolen and thrown across the yard, were
Speaker 1: fighting over Monopoly, like it's a constant negotiation.
Speaker 2: That's just there is like such a different dynamic, even
Speaker 2: just one kid versus two kids.
Speaker 3: My kids live an entirely different life.
Speaker 4: Totally kids.
Speaker 1: She comes over here and she's like, what.
Speaker 3: The fuck is My kids feel like they've been in
Speaker 3: a tornado?
Speaker 7: What was that?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 1: People are shouting on it, and it's just Also even
Speaker 1: just I remember playing games together and I would hear
Speaker 1: her son be like, I'm always I get the blue
Speaker 1: legos or like whatever, and he would think in his head,
Speaker 1: of course, I get the blue I've always gotten the
Speaker 1: blue because he never had to negotiate for the blue. Well,
Speaker 1: now you don't get the blue, dude, because there's three
Speaker 1: other kids that want blue, and it does of like,
Speaker 1: but he does actually get the blue. I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: not here he does. But I think, like I remember
Speaker 1: that that was like, oh, like I it would cause
Speaker 1: such stress and then it didn't and then it was
Speaker 1: like one day it just like stop. But that was hard.
Speaker 5: I think choosing to date women with children it has
Speaker 5: its own dynamic. Yeah, I mean you have to approach
Speaker 5: it differently, and I think one it throttles you. It
Speaker 5: totally does, right, But then once you get past that,
Speaker 5: I mean I.
Speaker 4: Think we did.
Speaker 5: We did a year of dating and then we you know,
Speaker 5: seeing each other when we could, and then after a
Speaker 5: year we started what we call a b We would
Speaker 5: go and parent my kids together for a week and
Speaker 5: then we would flip and go parent.
Speaker 1: That is so smart.
Speaker 6: It would like you pack up all the food and
Speaker 6: the refrigerator, pack up the dogs and all the animals,
Speaker 6: and like transport.
Speaker 2: It getting like time, just the two of you. In
Speaker 2: that case, you were both just full time press.
Speaker 1: How long then did it take to get it less
Speaker 1: icy with the daughter.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so what was good.
Speaker 5: About that scenario? Yeah, it allowed me to parent with
Speaker 5: her with her one child and develop that relationship where
Speaker 5: I'm not making my own children jealous. Yeah right, and
Speaker 5: just establish that. So we did that for a year
Speaker 5: and a half. And I mean, and that'll either.
Speaker 3: But that's really smart.
Speaker 5: It was great, right, And we lived forty miles apart,
Speaker 5: so it was like pick your shut up, move it,
Speaker 5: move in, right, We had an ice just we lived
Speaker 5: out of suitcases.
Speaker 4: We were burning at both ends.
Speaker 5: But it was that or rush something that would have
Speaker 5: been unhealthy and set us back even further, and we'd
Speaker 5: already combining.
Speaker 3: Those kids and doing that level of damage.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: For a year and a half, we sat there and
Speaker 5: parented the kids separately but like or together but separately.
Speaker 4: Right, and so we separate yeah, and then wend So.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and we when we started at some point in
Speaker 6: AB we talked about C.
Speaker 7: We're like, we want C.
Speaker 6: We were looking towards C, which is going to be
Speaker 6: where we all move in somewhere together. So we were
Speaker 6: always aiming at having all the kids together. Right, we
Speaker 6: could have stayed on an off schedule and like.
Speaker 7: Write a staggered schedule, then you wouldn't be here. Yeah,
Speaker 7: this is great.
Speaker 6: I mean, I mean we always say, right, they're downsides,
Speaker 6: like you miss your kids, right, that is the awful
Speaker 6: part of divorce, Like you never want to split the
Speaker 6: time and lose them for half that time.
Speaker 7: But we also every other week have a week yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're older now.
Speaker 7: They're older now.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and so yes, she defrosted and now she's like
Speaker 6: biggest fan.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 7: We joke that she is like your child probably in
Speaker 7: terms of.
Speaker 6: Just like you know, yah, the dynamic compatibility, right, you have.
Speaker 1: Boys or girls, girls and boys, girls and boys. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so what's the is the girl closest to your girl?
Speaker 5: So the youngest to share a bathroom and that's been
Speaker 5: the only thing where they kind of had to step
Speaker 5: on one another when we got our sea house, right,
Speaker 5: like the young girls have to share the share one
Speaker 5: restroom and mine is awful about taking our long showers
Speaker 5: and her daughter is super tolerant of that, which I
Speaker 5: don't understand. I tell her, I'll take this door off
Speaker 5: if we'll get this movie.
Speaker 6: I mean, yeah, that could have been, right. They're what
Speaker 6: a year and a half apart, teenage girls that could
Speaker 6: have been really just like bad, but they're like besties.
Speaker 6: In fact, we were going back and looking through our
Speaker 6: messages from when we first heard about Asian chronicles.
Speaker 7: We found her my daughter calling your daughter her bestie.
Speaker 6: Right, so even though she was mad at you, she
Speaker 6: didn't take it on the kids.
Speaker 7: And so I think, yes, there was some adjusting.
Speaker 6: Right, she was an only and she will come in
Speaker 6: and she will be the only one talking and not
Speaker 6: realize everybody else wants to say something to like she.
Speaker 7: Had to learn how to be one of.
Speaker 1: Any but also as a mom, Like I don't know
Speaker 1: if this is true for you, but like I think
Speaker 1: it also forces you to see And me, I had
Speaker 1: to see things about my own kids that I didn't see,
Speaker 1: and she had to see things about him that she
Speaker 1: was like, God, he is kind of a deck like
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry my kids, like I was later, like
Speaker 1: I remember pulling Reid he was little aside and being.
Speaker 7: Like, please don't just one night, just.
Speaker 1: Stop being so rough, stop just for come, wrestle me
Speaker 1: down to the floor.
Speaker 2: He's the youngest, this is his opportunity. He's been waiting
Speaker 2: his whole life to be able to wrestle.
Speaker 3: The younger.
Speaker 1: You don't notice it about your own until something is
Speaker 1: put there that they are forced to contend with, and
Speaker 1: then you're like, god, damn you guys, you're making me
Speaker 1: look like ship right now.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I think that the blending, right, there's like
Speaker 5: so many like pitfalls that can happen.
Speaker 4: In there and joys.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, it is like now it's cruises and vacations
Speaker 5: and we do have a good time together and they've defrosted.
Speaker 2: I'd say I think it also teaches the kids to
Speaker 2: to like be adaptable, you know, Like that's something like
Speaker 2: my ex husband has told my kids. He's like, you know,
Speaker 2: you're not gonna get along with everybody in your life,
Speaker 2: and they're gonna go to work and work with someone
Speaker 2: who really sucks, and this is teaching you to, you know,
Speaker 2: be able to roll with that. And I think that's
Speaker 2: like as much as it sucks to like learn that
Speaker 2: at a young age, it's so important and it's gonna
Speaker 2: really set them ahead like in life.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I mean, obviously we wouldn't have wanted to do this
Speaker 6: to them, but we had all of them in therapy
Speaker 6: very soon after all of this, and all of their
Speaker 6: therapists have said, yeah, resilience and the ability to adapt
Speaker 6: like and them, yeahships, yeah that if everything it's that
Speaker 6: is that we're modeling it. And even though like my
Speaker 6: ex husband can't show up like my daughter Like, so
Speaker 6: your ex husband took my daughter and all our kids
Speaker 6: to our wedding right with her, right and flew back
Speaker 6: with her and know like, oh yeah, I mean he's
Speaker 6: always over, not always, but he's over and she knows him,
Speaker 6: like and it gets to see this this wonderful like
Speaker 6: co parenting even though her dad can't do it. Yeah,
Speaker 6: she sees it like it's possible somebody else can. Somebody
Speaker 6: else can do that.
Speaker 1: And you wouldn't want your kids, like I always think about,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have wanted them to stay in a relationship
Speaker 1: for being Yeah, Like that's such a growth moment they
Speaker 1: can look back on and think. You can always change
Speaker 1: your mind, Like I always tell mine that too. There's
Speaker 1: nothing you've done that you've got to You made your bed,
Speaker 1: you can always pivot. Yeah, there's no decision that hard
Speaker 1: that you can't swap it out.
Speaker 5: Oh, I mean that was like the essence of Glennon. Right,
Speaker 5: you're Martyring for your kids. Yeah, if my kid was
Speaker 5: doing what what I was doing, I would be disappointed, right,
Speaker 5: and so, but how else can I expect her to
Speaker 5: do differently other than to model that for her.
Speaker 6: Yeah, we've also like recently come across I can't remember
Speaker 6: where we heard it, but this concept of the provisional self,
Speaker 6: and it is like your provisional self is up until
Speaker 6: somewhere thirties, forties, fifties, but it is it is going
Speaker 6: to evolve into something else, and there's likely to be
Speaker 6: a big mess as your provisional self is making way
Speaker 6: for your real.
Speaker 7: Self, your true self, your authentic self.
Speaker 6: So like that concept of like showing that to the kids,
Speaker 6: like it's not always pretty, it is is real messy,
Speaker 6: and y'all saw it and y'all felt it, but now
Speaker 6: you also see the other side and we I mean,
Speaker 6: they would probably throw it because they hear us say
Speaker 6: authenticity and true self and like, you know, all of
Speaker 6: that a genuine but it's provisional. Your provisional self is
Speaker 6: up until the big change, the big mess, and then
Speaker 6: you shed it. You shed your provisional self and you're
Speaker 6: It's kind of like what we talked.
Speaker 1: About earlier, which is that I had a therapist when
Speaker 1: I was coming out, and she said, every woman, no
Speaker 1: matter what, has a day of reckoning or a time
Speaker 1: period of reckoning where it's like you might be twenty,
Speaker 1: be forty, you might be eighty, but you will have
Speaker 1: a reckoning. And it's like she's like, you should be
Speaker 1: so thankful and celebrate that yours came at forty and
Speaker 1: not eighty. And it's kind of the same idea of like,
Speaker 1: you decide this isn't, I gotta change it up, and
Speaker 1: it is messy, You hurt people, you you're scared as shit.
Speaker 1: I mean there were times Melissa and I in the process,
Speaker 1: I remember saying to her, I'm not even sure I
Speaker 1: want to go through with it. I might change my mind.
Speaker 1: We're in the middle of the divorce and I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: I don't know that I even want to do it anymore.
Speaker 4: It's not for everyone.
Speaker 6: Now.
Speaker 5: We have a friend right now that's going through the
Speaker 5: shutting and her provisional self, and you know, the whole time,
Speaker 5: we're saying, you know, you're in the middle, the messy middle,
Speaker 5: and you know there's a reason why people don't pull
Speaker 5: the trigger on what you're doing.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, they will choose, they.
Speaker 5: Will choose the white knuckling and they will just hold
Speaker 5: hold the line. But you know, you have like you know,
Speaker 5: I had a medical scare in twenty twenty three, and
Speaker 5: I mean that was I opening and I was like,
Speaker 5: oh my god, here I just blew my life up
Speaker 5: two years ago. And I could have like im like
Speaker 5: thinking I'm gonna die in the next six months and
Speaker 5: I've been alone or yeah I did all this, and
Speaker 5: I could have just held the line, and I was like,
Speaker 5: not for one minute. Well, I I am so glad
Speaker 5: that I just spent the last two years blowing shut
Speaker 5: up for this feeling that I have now.
Speaker 4: But it's not for everyone. I know. There's a wimp.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very true. Yeah, there's people in our group.
Speaker 1: We met in a group therapy for people coming out late,
Speaker 1: and they there were women in there that were like,
Speaker 1: I'm never leaving, like I just can't, like the price
Speaker 1: is too high for me, but I need support.
Speaker 2: Well, and I don't know if you are open to
Speaker 2: speaking about having a child with special needs, because that
Speaker 2: was one of the situations in our group was that
Speaker 2: someone you know, was like, I gotta stay for that reason.
Speaker 2: So how have you managed that aspect?
Speaker 1: Yeah, good point.
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, I mean I think I think that's probably
Speaker 5: why I hung into marriage for so long. Was that
Speaker 5: idea concept that I couldn't do it a lot. But
Speaker 5: once you get over that and you realize, well, maybe
Speaker 5: I just have to or maybe we can do it
Speaker 5: in coparing way, which thankfully we do a very great
Speaker 5: job of that, you realize that honestly, it's easier as
Speaker 5: you get I mean, right, as long as both parents
Speaker 5: are going to show up. I mean, he's doing an
Speaker 5: amazing job right now at home with her, and I'm
Speaker 5: going to do amazing.
Speaker 4: Next week, and that is great. I think I am.
Speaker 4: Actually when we're on we are on.
Speaker 5: Seven days a week and with a special needs child,
Speaker 5: I would say that. You know, early on in dating Mary,
Speaker 5: I I did have to come along and just say, hey,
Speaker 5: here's my situation.
Speaker 4: It's not just me that you'd be dating. Right.
Speaker 5: Ultimately, like if this were ever to evolve into something more,
Speaker 5: my daughter's coming with me forever, and and that's you know,
Speaker 5: I mean, she's a saint for wanting to sign up
Speaker 5: for that. And you know I didn't choose this life.
Speaker 5: She did, and so you know, she gets the gold star.
Speaker 5: I don't, but that is a reality that it's it's
Speaker 5: an additional layer to a relationship that most people don't
Speaker 5: have to consider.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think though anyone who I just said this
Speaker 1: to someone today where she is married to someone who
Speaker 1: really doesn't like her kids, like there's just too much
Speaker 1: angst with them, so now they're like living separately. But
Speaker 1: she's like, my partner is just like patiently waiting for
Speaker 1: the kids to be eighteen and gone. And I'm like, listen, pep,
Speaker 1: You're not gone at eighteen. They're not gone. Like I
Speaker 1: talk to mine more now. I going tomorrow to see them.
Speaker 1: I can't wait till when I'm older. They're home with
Speaker 1: their kids, their boyfriends, their girlfriends, We're dinnering, we're vacationing,
Speaker 1: like they aren't going anywhere. So to me, it's like
Speaker 1: they're more present, like mine are everywhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like going on a trip with my kids
Speaker 2: the past few days. Yeah, Like they're more fun now,
Speaker 2: like we had a blast together.
Speaker 1: Even if they're twenty five. I haven't been a.
Speaker 3: Few days at david Busters with my kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, five years ago, I would have been like I
Speaker 2: would have been like you you were saying earlier, all
Speaker 2: like we.
Speaker 3: Gotta go, we gotta go. I had a blast. So
Speaker 3: it's like they get more fun is to get.
Speaker 1: Older and they get Yeah, I've taken mine like out
Speaker 1: with these guys to like parties and stuff because they're
Speaker 1: older now and it is like they're with me. They're
Speaker 1: rock and karaoke, rock and karaoke, like these guys are
Speaker 1: here to stay. So there is You're right, even if
Speaker 1: it's not special needs. Your kids are all of us
Speaker 1: are ye are here?
Speaker 4: We're here?
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I can say like I came from a small, quiet,
Speaker 6: little life, right we were we have like three introverts, right,
Speaker 6: and and it took a little bit of adjustment just
Speaker 6: from like well one like from the little things like
Speaker 6: cooking for like seven people. Then meet me all the
Speaker 6: activities and things and just like oh there's a lot
Speaker 6: more needs to attend to totally. And I feel like
Speaker 6: my daughter said it best, like one time she came
Speaker 6: home and all the other kids were doing something else.
Speaker 6: She's like, where's the party, And I'm like.
Speaker 7: Oh, that's it. Like for her, it is fun.
Speaker 6: She was she wasn't only, so they're all the perks
Speaker 6: of being only, but she's also only probably slings, so
Speaker 6: now she has Yeah, she has all these people.
Speaker 7: And like the nights we like the most are when
Speaker 7: it's probably Friday night. It's right, like they don't disappear.
Speaker 7: We have the teenagers who don't like go out and
Speaker 7: do anything.
Speaker 6: They want to hang out with us, and they seem
Speaker 6: to enjoy. Like sometimes we'll slip off, like let's just
Speaker 6: see how they do, and they're out there.
Speaker 1: Wow, they engaging.
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, and that's awkward and they're teenagers and all that,
Speaker 6: but they like it. And I think that's like one
Speaker 6: of the biggest changes I've seen is like, oh, just
Speaker 6: embracing the like the bigness of a bigger family, like
Speaker 6: in the fullness of that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, like mine, mine wasn't as full and it's enjoyable.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's very fun. That's a good place to wrap.
Speaker 7: I love that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you guys thought was great. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for coming all the way to Atlanta to come.
Speaker 4: On the pod.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I appreciate you guys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely you Let's go get dinner.
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right.
Speaker 3: I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast.
Speaker 2: Rate us and write a review on Apple podcast or Spotify.
Speaker 1: We love listener feedback. If you'd like to share your story,
Speaker 1: e mail us at Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: Dot's Melissa M. E. L I. S. A and Ali
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