1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 1: Welcome to Spycraft, a podcast that tells gripping life and 2 00:00:09,759 --> 00:00:14,000 death spy stories and the amazing devices and operations that 3 00:00:14,119 --> 00:00:17,160 made them possible. Now let's get started. 4 00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:35,759 Speaker 2: Back everyone, Today, we have a great guest, doctor Helen Fries. 5 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,119 She's read numerous books on the Second World War, with 6 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,759 particular reference to the ten thousand Germans and Austrians who 7 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,920 fought for Britain. With a portfolio of experiences of World 8 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,079 War Two, historian, Helen undertakes consultancy work for documentary companies 9 00:00:49,079 --> 00:00:51,799 and as a consultant historian for location filming of World 10 00:00:51,799 --> 00:00:55,520 War Two scenes for TV channels including BBC, ITV and 11 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,759 Channel four. She's also been engaged in a range of 12 00:00:58,759 --> 00:01:03,000 writer whiter projects, including the for school's curriculum and adult 13 00:01:03,119 --> 00:01:05,519 education related to World War One, World War Two, and 14 00:01:05,599 --> 00:01:08,840 the Cold War. She's an honorary member of the Association 15 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,760 of Jewish Refugees and associate editor for I Spy Magazine. 16 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,280 She's also an ambassador for the Museum of Military Intelligence 17 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,159 and president of the Friends of the National Archives. But 18 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,640 we're not going to be talking about any of that today. Actually, 19 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,120 we're gonna be talking about two of her books. For 20 00:01:24,239 --> 00:01:25,159 more recent books. 21 00:01:25,159 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 3: One of them is called right Get Right Here, The 22 00:01:27,599 --> 00:01:31,439 Walls have ears. It's the General. 23 00:01:31,599 --> 00:01:32,439 Speaker 2: Nope, not the General. 24 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,239 Speaker 3: It's the Greatest Intelligence Operation of World War Two. So 25 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:37,560 again the Walls have years. 26 00:01:37,599 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 2: The Greatest Intelligence Operation of World War Two is one 27 00:01:40,519 --> 00:01:42,079 book we're going to be discussing, and the other one 28 00:01:42,159 --> 00:01:44,640 is m I nine. So we're going to be looking 29 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,680 at these books together and talking about them. Before we 30 00:01:47,719 --> 00:01:49,560 get started, make sure to share, subscribe, and hit that 31 00:01:49,719 --> 00:01:51,280 like button that's always any more time. 32 00:01:51,159 --> 00:01:53,879 Speaker 3: Walking to the show, Doctor Frye. Welcome, Doctor Frye. 33 00:01:54,599 --> 00:01:56,519 Speaker 4: Thank you, it's great to be with you today. 34 00:01:57,079 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: Thank you very much for doing this. We truly appreciate it. 35 00:02:01,359 --> 00:02:02,319 Speaker 4: So the problem. 36 00:02:02,719 --> 00:02:05,359 Speaker 2: The first thing I wanted to do is what got 37 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,000 you into World War Two history? 38 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 4: Oh, I've always been interested in history, and I think 39 00:02:12,039 --> 00:02:16,319 the inspiration, as for many people, often comes from a teacher. 40 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,039 And there was a very particular teacher when I was 41 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,120 a teenager who was inspirational. In fact, his period of 42 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,560 expertise was not actually the Second World War. But I've 43 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,719 always loved history, and I got into this subject because 44 00:02:30,759 --> 00:02:35,520 I was looking at the ten thousand Germans, mainly Jewish, 45 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,439 who fought for Britain in the Second World War, and 46 00:02:38,439 --> 00:02:41,639 of course there's an equivalent story in America of around 47 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:46,439 fourteen thousand German Jews who fought with the American forces. 48 00:02:46,879 --> 00:02:51,680 So very quickly you soon realize the knowledge of language. 49 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,680 They're taken into intelligence work stuff behind enemy lines. And 50 00:02:56,759 --> 00:02:59,919 once I got into this, I got hooked, completely hooked. 51 00:03:00,319 --> 00:03:03,000 So it was quite accidental in many ways. 52 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, the world of the ESPNI is kind of addicting, 53 00:03:05,479 --> 00:03:07,919 isn't it. 54 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 4: It's detective work. It's kind of trying to see if 55 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,199 you can solve the mysteries, which, of course his stories 56 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,120 have been trying to solve for decades. 57 00:03:18,879 --> 00:03:20,719 Speaker 2: Folks. I did forget to mention on her new book 58 00:03:20,719 --> 00:03:22,599 at m I nine. It's a history of the Secret 59 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,840 Service for escape and Evasion in World War Two. I 60 00:03:25,879 --> 00:03:28,919 was having a little bit of a difficulty reading what 61 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,599 I was saying there. So doctor Fryar, I guess your 62 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,159 first book, The Walls Have Ears? What is this all about? 63 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is a top secret a bugging operation 64 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,000 during the Second World War. Many of your listeners will 65 00:03:45,039 --> 00:03:47,400 probably have heard of the work of the codebreakers at 66 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,199 Bletchley Park, but of course it's not just the cracking 67 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,599 of the Enigma codes. I suppose today what goes over 68 00:03:54,639 --> 00:03:59,240 the internet. To give a contemporary analysis or analogy, we 69 00:03:59,319 --> 00:04:03,560 also need to human intelligence and the British Intelligence Service 70 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,879 later working with American intelligence after Pearl Harbor believed that 71 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,719 one of your most important sources of intelligence are your 72 00:04:12,759 --> 00:04:16,800 prisoners of war. Yeah, you're Germans and Italians as well, 73 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,560 But how do you get the information out of them? 74 00:04:20,319 --> 00:04:23,319 You can't rough them up in interrogation. Doesn't give you 75 00:04:23,399 --> 00:04:28,240 anything particularly useful or reliable. How do you know it's reliable. 76 00:04:29,439 --> 00:04:33,879 It's against the Geneva convention. So the commanding officer of 77 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,120 this particular unit, Thomas Joseph Kendrick, who is whose father 78 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:44,759 was American. Anyway, he was far cleverer and devised a 79 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:51,639 whole unit that would inadvertently or surreptitiously bug the conversations 80 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,800 of German prisoners of war. So, just to say briefly, 81 00:04:56,319 --> 00:05:00,360 they would have a sort of phony interrogation, and they 82 00:05:00,399 --> 00:05:04,319 thought their war was over. They'd go back to their room, 83 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,759 chat to their cellmate and brag about what they hadn't 84 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,839 told the interrogating officer. And they thought they were so 85 00:05:11,879 --> 00:05:15,199 smart and so clever, but of course there were microphones 86 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:20,800 hidden in the light fittings and sometimes in the fireplaces. 87 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 2: Oh man, so Huber's got the best of them. Why now, Kendrick, 88 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,079 what was his position again? He using the military or 89 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:32,399 was he an intelligence? 90 00:05:33,519 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 4: Yes? He was. He was a commanding officer of the 91 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:41,079 whole unit and established this from scratch. He'd already spent 92 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:47,120 nearly thirty years working in British intelligence from Boa War 93 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,560 South Africa nineteen oh one he was just twenty one 94 00:05:50,639 --> 00:05:54,480 years old, and all the way through the First World 95 00:05:54,519 --> 00:05:58,279 War in France in intelligence, and then in the nineteen 96 00:05:58,319 --> 00:06:02,560 twenties and thirties he's working for what today we call 97 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:09,160 MI six in Vienna running spy networks. He's expelled by 98 00:06:09,199 --> 00:06:13,439 the Gestapo by the German authorities for allegedly spying, which 99 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:18,600 of course he denies, and he's back in London in 100 00:06:19,319 --> 00:06:22,360 the summer of nineteen thirty eight, and that's when he 101 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:28,120 starts preparing this unit that will springing to action at 102 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,199 the outbreak of war whenever that's going to happen. And 103 00:06:30,199 --> 00:06:31,560 of course we now know it was the third of 104 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,839 September nineteen thirty nine that Britain was at war with 105 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,720 Nazi Germany and his unit, he might probably want to 106 00:06:40,759 --> 00:06:43,439 talk about this, but his unit went on to mask 107 00:06:43,519 --> 00:06:49,079 the most incredible volume upon volumes of information and intelligence 108 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,879 that actually turned the tide of the war, alongside the 109 00:06:52,879 --> 00:06:54,360 code breaking of Bletchley Park. 110 00:06:55,519 --> 00:06:59,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know in your book you mentioned I forget 111 00:06:59,319 --> 00:07:01,279 what it was. It was like these these homes they 112 00:07:01,319 --> 00:07:04,839 were trained into prisons or something and Trent Park and 113 00:07:04,879 --> 00:07:07,079 they were Yeah, on the interrogation. Is that part of 114 00:07:07,079 --> 00:07:09,199 what you were talking about earlier? Is that a separate entity? 115 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 4: No, this is part of it. And I suppose I'm 116 00:07:12,519 --> 00:07:16,120 personally am reluctant to use the word prison, and the 117 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:21,120 word prison is never used in the intelligence files have 118 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:26,279 been declassified. Trent Park in North London, right there at 119 00:07:26,279 --> 00:07:29,160 the end of the Piccadilly Line. Could all look on 120 00:07:29,199 --> 00:07:33,560 your map of the underground of London. It was sort 121 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:38,639 of known as Special Quarters and from nineteen forty two 122 00:07:40,079 --> 00:07:44,079 this was where Kendrick held Hitler's captured generals who started 123 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,759 to come off battlefields North Africa. Of course, by May 124 00:07:48,839 --> 00:07:52,079 nineteen forty three and that had collapsed, and then after 125 00:07:52,199 --> 00:07:58,480 Sicily Italy, after D Day, all Hitler's top commanders his generals, 126 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,879 Field marshals. They all end up in this house, and 127 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,040 Kendrick has two other houses just outside London called Latam 128 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,680 House and Wilson Park, so it's deep in the countryside, 129 00:08:11,399 --> 00:08:15,439 away from prying eyes. Nobody knows what's going on at 130 00:08:15,439 --> 00:08:16,560 these secret sites. 131 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,079 Speaker 2: Ominous. That sounds quite ominous. And I know we're going 132 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,399 to get into a little bit more of the interrogation 133 00:08:25,519 --> 00:08:28,439 aspect is in your book. It's almost like you're kind 134 00:08:28,439 --> 00:08:32,399 of guiding us to this evolution of interrogation by Kendrick, 135 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,759 like almost how I developed an intelligence and how it improved? 136 00:08:35,879 --> 00:08:37,000 Am I how far off on that? 137 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean he's already a pretty skilled person by 138 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:48,600 the time he opens this unit because he understands human psychology. 139 00:08:48,639 --> 00:08:55,840 He's good actually at enabling personnel in the air, minustry, Army, 140 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:01,120 naval intelligence, all these kind of rivalries between the departments. 141 00:09:01,399 --> 00:09:06,039 He's the ideal man to set aside those egotistic infighting, 142 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,480 which has been a problem for intelligence before. But not 143 00:09:09,519 --> 00:09:13,440 only that, he very rapidly ramps up this unit. He 144 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,120 starts in a very small way in the Tower of London. 145 00:09:16,919 --> 00:09:22,240 Tower of London are iconic tourist attraction. Today, that's September 146 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,440 nineteen thirty nine, and just within a few months he's 147 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,840 got his eye on needing a proper big place outside London, 148 00:09:28,159 --> 00:09:31,399 and that's when he requisitions Trent Park and increases his 149 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,480 staff from just six, just six of them when they started, 150 00:09:34,519 --> 00:09:38,240 to over five hundred, and by five hundred by the 151 00:09:38,279 --> 00:09:41,039 middle of the war. He's got about a thousand intelligence 152 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:46,399 personnel alongside American intelligence. So he's ramped it up and 153 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:51,039 he goes on to listen well, his personnel listening to 154 00:09:51,159 --> 00:09:56,240 the conversations of over ten thousand Key prisoners of war, 155 00:09:56,639 --> 00:09:59,759 German prisoners of war. And as we've already said, those 156 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,639 hop commanders Hitler's top commanders. And you know, nobody ever 157 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,960 asks what happened to Hitler's generals when they were captured 158 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:13,080 on the battlefields of Normandy. I did well. They ended 159 00:10:13,159 --> 00:10:16,159 up in his stately home, Trent Park, and there they 160 00:10:16,159 --> 00:10:19,519 were wined and dined, and they lived the life of 161 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:25,120 relative luxury. And they didn't think or question why they 162 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,200 were not in this and huts with barbed wire. They 163 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,039 were in a beautiful, stately home, plenty of wine and whiskey. 164 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,519 But of course, as you know, the Walls Have Ears. 165 00:10:36,919 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 2: That's a big con game there. 166 00:10:40,639 --> 00:10:44,159 Speaker 4: It's marvelous. Who would believe it? 167 00:10:44,879 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 2: That's crazy stuff. Yeah, if you saw in a movie, 168 00:10:47,919 --> 00:10:49,720 if you pitched it as a movie, you probably say 169 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,759 nobody would believe that story. You can't do that again, folks. 170 00:10:53,759 --> 00:10:55,639 The book is called The Walls Heavy Years, The Greatest 171 00:10:55,639 --> 00:10:58,679 Intelligence Operation of World War Two, by doctor Helen Fry. 172 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,600 It's really a fascinating and something you don't usually read 173 00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:04,840 in the history books, that's for sure. Let me ask 174 00:11:04,879 --> 00:11:07,120 you doctor Fry, as you mentioned, he got a lot 175 00:11:07,159 --> 00:11:11,320 of access to Hitler's secrets. I guess anything that stood 176 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,360 alfree as we were doing a research and he said, 177 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:14,679 how could this be? 178 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:21,799 Speaker 4: Yeah? Absolutely, with The Walls Have Ears. One of the 179 00:11:21,799 --> 00:11:25,320 big pieces of intelligence they get on Hitler's secret weapons 180 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,159 on the V one and the V two and even 181 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,200 the V three towards the end of the war. And 182 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,679 I'd never heard of a V three, So of course 183 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,159 we had information coming out from behind enemy lines. We'd 184 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:42,759 had bits and pieces about a possible secret weapon. But 185 00:11:42,879 --> 00:11:47,360 the penny finally drops when Hitler's generals at Trent Park 186 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,080 and after the fall of Stalingrad. Of course, the Russian 187 00:11:51,159 --> 00:11:55,639 campaign was ended in defeat for the Germans after you know, 188 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,120 they invaded in June forty one. But of course that 189 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:04,000 whole campaign collapses and Stalin Grad finally falls in early 190 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,480 nineteen forty three, and those generals that have already been 191 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,039 captured are sat in the house. They've got delayed news 192 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,720 that this has happened. One of them says, it's quite humorous. Really, 193 00:12:14,039 --> 00:12:17,000 he says, I wish I'd shot myself and they captured. 194 00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:22,679 So you've got everyday life and conversations which can be 195 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,440 really fascinating. But one of them says they're thoroughly depressed 196 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,440 and gloomy. And one of them says, that's it. We've 197 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,039 lost the war. And actually it's General foun Toma who 198 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:36,279 is captured in North Africa brought to Trent. Parker says, no, 199 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,440 we haven't. We've got the secret weapon that is going 200 00:12:38,519 --> 00:12:41,639 to turn the tide of the war. And now we 201 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,720 take this intelligence seriously. And in my book I trace 202 00:12:45,919 --> 00:12:50,200 from these bugged conversations about the secret weapon. They mentioned 203 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,480 Penny Munda weere Hitler's developing it on the North German coast, 204 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,080 and there is now a directly you can see it 205 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,559 in the files between that and Churchill ordering the bombing 206 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,080 of Pinnimunda in August nineteen forty three. And I've done 207 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,039 some more analysis for my next book about Kendrick actually Spymaster, 208 00:13:09,639 --> 00:13:14,000 and you begin to realize that if we hadn't knocked 209 00:13:14,039 --> 00:13:17,240 out that site in August nineteen forty three, we actually 210 00:13:17,279 --> 00:13:20,519 could have lost the war. We certainly couldn't have mounted 211 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,480 the D Day landings. And in knocking out this site, 212 00:13:23,519 --> 00:13:25,120 I think it's just the final thing I would say 213 00:13:25,159 --> 00:13:29,080 on this point, unless you have other questions, that it 214 00:13:29,159 --> 00:13:32,480 was knocked out in August forty three. But the first 215 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:37,320 V one, that massive super weapon, did not land on 216 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,600 London until a week after D Day June forty four. 217 00:13:40,639 --> 00:13:44,759 That's nine months. And my question to the audience is 218 00:13:44,799 --> 00:13:48,240 to think, what if we hadn't discovered this in time? 219 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,639 And it is now recognized that without this intelligence we 220 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,559 Germany could have won the tech war, and that's true 221 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,159 for the V one, V two, V three atomic bomb program. 222 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,360 We're picking up all of this stuff. When I say 223 00:14:02,399 --> 00:14:07,639 we the British intelligence services in close collaboration and working 224 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,279 partnership with the American intelligence. So it's awesome stuff. This 225 00:14:11,519 --> 00:14:12,320 new research. 226 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing stuff and stuff you don't see on 227 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,200 the textbooks, that's for sure. I guess that's kind of 228 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:19,840 a goad. 229 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 4: Yeah that I was going to say, actually you don't 230 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,279 because it's still so very new. The files were only 231 00:14:27,639 --> 00:14:31,759 declassified about ten years ago, and it takes time. I 232 00:14:31,759 --> 00:14:35,879 mean I got to them just within quite accidentally, just 233 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,159 within a few months that they've been declassified. And some 234 00:14:40,279 --> 00:14:43,039 of it's so dense, you know, the conversations are very 235 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,039 technical in many cases that I think his stories, if 236 00:14:46,039 --> 00:14:48,440 they pull them up, would just send them back again. Think, oh, 237 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,440 but you've got to persist. And the reason I persisted 238 00:14:53,919 --> 00:14:57,759 was because of what we call a secret listener, and 239 00:14:57,799 --> 00:15:01,559 these were German Jewish refugees who were taken up by 240 00:15:01,639 --> 00:15:05,279 Kendrick's unit to sit in what were known as m 241 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,240 rooms with their headsets on, like we've got our headsets 242 00:15:08,279 --> 00:15:13,399 on now in the m rooms, recording the conversations at 243 00:15:13,399 --> 00:15:16,879 those three sites. And I promised him, you know, he 244 00:15:16,919 --> 00:15:20,840 said to me, Fritz Lostig sign the Official Secrets Act. 245 00:15:20,879 --> 00:15:23,159 At the end of the war we went into civilian life. 246 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,960 Did we do anything that made any difference to the war, 247 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,600 He said, I sat in the countryside for three years. Yeah, safe, 248 00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:35,360 I lost comrades on the battlefields. Did we do anything 249 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,759 that made a difference. Nobody told us. They just thanked 250 00:15:37,799 --> 00:15:39,840 us at the end of the war. It was all 251 00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:43,799 hush hush. And now the files have been declassified. I 252 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,799 promised him I would look at them and I would 253 00:15:45,879 --> 00:15:49,879 answer that question. And even I was staggered by the 254 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,120 sheer volume of intelligence we were getting. We were getting 255 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,559 it nowhere else than these sites. And it is true 256 00:15:58,559 --> 00:16:01,279 to say that with blatch Sheep and the code breaking, 257 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,000 you know, without that, we couldn't have won the war. 258 00:16:04,159 --> 00:16:07,879 That's I know, it's a very brief assessment, but that's 259 00:16:07,919 --> 00:16:10,519 what I argue in the book, and I hope readers 260 00:16:10,519 --> 00:16:11,480 will be convinced. 261 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 2: Again, Folks definitely recommend the book. It's a fascinating read, 262 00:16:15,559 --> 00:16:17,639 and I'll definitely give you a different perspective of history. 263 00:16:17,679 --> 00:16:20,919 The Walls have ears the greatest intelligence operation of World 264 00:16:20,919 --> 00:16:23,679 War Two. And I guess I have a couple of questions, 265 00:16:24,159 --> 00:16:27,159 not necessarily directly about the book, but maybe a little 266 00:16:27,159 --> 00:16:28,519 bit a little bit about it and a little bit 267 00:16:28,559 --> 00:16:31,440 about process. I know, when I've spoken to other authors, 268 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,480 at least in the US, I've spoken to a few 269 00:16:33,799 --> 00:16:35,879 obviously in the UK as well, but when I've spoken 270 00:16:35,919 --> 00:16:38,960 to the US, it's complicated to get these files, these 271 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:43,039 classified files or declassified files. They have to do a 272 00:16:43,039 --> 00:16:44,320 lot of work. At least they have to go to 273 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,080 special places to go access them. How is it for 274 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,159 you in the UK? Is it the same Processes it 275 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:50,360 take a lot of work to get them when they 276 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:51,919 give you classified or is it simpler? 277 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 4: No, it's the whole research process is a detective process. 278 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,720 It's a journey and you never know when you start 279 00:17:01,759 --> 00:17:03,960 out how long it's going to take. You obviously have 280 00:17:04,039 --> 00:17:08,880 to scope what files have been declassified. We don't have 281 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:14,720 access to classified files. Nobody has that privilege, with a 282 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,759 couple of exceptions from Keith Jeffrey who wrote the Ficial 283 00:17:17,799 --> 00:17:21,039 History of m I six example, or Christopher Andrew who 284 00:17:21,039 --> 00:17:24,720 wrote the Ficial History of m I five. But generally 285 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,839 historians have no access, so they have to work with 286 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,759 what's in the National Archives in London. But also I 287 00:17:31,799 --> 00:17:35,039 was lucky enough to interview surviving veterans who are actually 288 00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:38,880 no longer with us, and you also rely occasionally on 289 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,160 relatives coming out of the woodwork saying I've got this 290 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,599 suitcase of papers, and I have no idea what my 291 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,720 dad did or what my mother did, and you begin 292 00:17:47,839 --> 00:17:52,119 to piece together. So it is a process, and with 293 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,119 intelligence history you can never get a totally full picture 294 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,680 because there's still stuff I guess that can never be 295 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,640 really east. But I'm okay with that. I used to 296 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,960 think when I was younger that we had to tell 297 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,640 the whole story. And with a lot of history books 298 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,359 and with other kinds of history, I think we can 299 00:18:11,559 --> 00:18:15,200 can make huge progress. But with intelligence history, sometimes you're 300 00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:18,240 working on stuff later on, a few years down the line, 301 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,519 and you come across something hidden deep in the files 302 00:18:21,759 --> 00:18:24,799 that connects to something earlier. So there's always a process 303 00:18:24,839 --> 00:18:28,240 and a journey of understanding, and it's not always a 304 00:18:28,279 --> 00:18:31,480 complete picture because of course it was so top secret. 305 00:18:32,079 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 2: That's a great point. That's hard too. And when you 306 00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:37,839 go on back in time to get get the whole stories, 307 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:40,799 it's almost impossible in a lot of ways. There's so 308 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,279 much going on. Even in our own history books, right 309 00:18:43,319 --> 00:18:45,920 we only hear get snippets of stories. We could actually 310 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,519 have a whole course on each each chapter in one 311 00:18:48,519 --> 00:18:50,480 of those history books if you really wanted to push 312 00:18:50,519 --> 00:18:52,680 it let me ask you this. Actually, you know what, 313 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,519 I'll keep this for the end. I'll keep this question, Okay, 314 00:18:55,559 --> 00:19:00,240 the end, which is it's an opinion question if did 315 00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:03,559 Hitler really die? But we'll get to that link. Oh gosh, 316 00:19:04,039 --> 00:19:06,480 that seems to be a conspiracy that still lives today 317 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,880 for some strange yes, it does. As a historian, how 318 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,319 I get your take? We're switching over to a group 319 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,640 that I hadn't heard about before. Am I nine a 320 00:19:15,759 --> 00:19:17,880 History of the Secret Service for Escape and Invasion in 321 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,960 World War Two. This is her other book, folks, and 322 00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:22,880 she has several books you might want to check out. 323 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,039 This is a thrilling history of nine, the World War 324 00:19:26,079 --> 00:19:28,680 Two organization that engineer the escape of Allied forces from 325 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,319 behind enemy lines. So let's find out all about this, 326 00:19:31,519 --> 00:19:33,119 doctor five. What'sm I nine. 327 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,599 Speaker 4: Yeah, So this is on the spectrum of military intelligence. 328 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,200 And so we've mentioned already, haven't we m I five 329 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,799 and mi I six, And people are very familiar with 330 00:19:44,319 --> 00:19:48,759 those British intelligence institutions. But for us, it goes from 331 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,279 m I one all the way up to m I nineteen, 332 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:58,000 and each each had their own you know, brief and 333 00:19:58,079 --> 00:20:02,319 it has changed since foundation. I mean the services in 334 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,480 nineteen oh nine, British Secret Service and British Intelligence Services. 335 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:12,279 The Military Intelligence Band that I nine specifically is in 336 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:17,240 charge of prisoners of war, whether it's our prisoners in 337 00:20:17,279 --> 00:20:20,480 prisoner of war camps or trapped behind enemy lines, or 338 00:20:20,519 --> 00:20:23,480 whether it's enemy prisoners of war. And the idea, of 339 00:20:23,559 --> 00:20:26,480 course Kendricks unit we talked about earlier originally fell within 340 00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:30,559 mi I nine. M I nine became so big it 341 00:20:30,759 --> 00:20:34,680 branched into I nine and mi I nineteen in nineteen 342 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,200 forty two. So this is this gives you an idea 343 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,519 of what's ramping up in terms of intelligence. So I 344 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:45,039 nine proper then is left with our prisoners of war 345 00:20:46,319 --> 00:20:50,960 trying to get intelligence from our personnel, but also to 346 00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:54,519 bring them back to escape or to evade capture in 347 00:20:54,559 --> 00:20:58,319 the first instance, to train them before they go into action. 348 00:20:59,079 --> 00:21:01,640 So there was a three week training course for all personnel, 349 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,920 and the Americans did exactly the same. To think, because 350 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,319 if you're captured, if you've just bailed out of an aircraft, 351 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,039 you might not think logically, or you might not be 352 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,119 so security conscious because you can give yourself away very easily. 353 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,519 And so nine gave a three week training course so 354 00:21:20,559 --> 00:21:24,079 that you had a chance to evade, capture or escape. 355 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,720 And the important thing is to get our personnel back 356 00:21:27,839 --> 00:21:31,720 to fight another day. And if you think about pilots 357 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,319 in particular, they're very expensive to train, but it actually 358 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,799 takes up to three months. You can't be losing your 359 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,440 pilots because the German Air Force could quickly gain superiority 360 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,720 and then well, yeah, mountined invasion of Britain for example, 361 00:21:46,759 --> 00:21:51,240 of the United Kingdom, so very very high priority, and 362 00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:55,200 the Germans didn't seem to have an equivalent the Americans did. 363 00:21:55,599 --> 00:22:02,079 The Americans had, American intelligence had mish X, rather obscure 364 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,079 and name for it. But they were doing exactly the 365 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:09,839 same thing. They were bringing Allied personnel back from Western 366 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,599 Europe and of course from the Far East, the Middle 367 00:22:12,599 --> 00:22:18,039 East wherever they were trapped potentially in enemy occupied territory. 368 00:22:18,599 --> 00:22:21,319 And Emma and I went on to save over thirty 369 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:25,960 five thousand Allied personnel and to bring them back. It's 370 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,599 a huge legacy. 371 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. That's amazing. It's amazing just listening to 372 00:22:31,319 --> 00:22:36,319 you how large the breath World War two is. I mean, 373 00:22:36,319 --> 00:22:40,240 there's so much going on. At least I haven't heard 374 00:22:40,279 --> 00:22:41,920 a lot of it that that's happened through it. No 375 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,759 matter how much you read, there's just so much happening everywhere. 376 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,480 Now in this book, you know, you drew a lot 377 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,880 on declassified files I can normally do and eyewitness testimonies. 378 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,240 Was this one a little bit more heavy on the 379 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:58,319 eyewitness testimonies or declassified files? You think? I use? 380 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's the same for both of them. 381 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,400 I used. I went to the primary sources because there 382 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,839 have been books before on I nine, but not for 383 00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:13,000 forty years. And there were two men in MI I 384 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,039 nine who were the giants at our end in Britain. 385 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,839 One of them was Airy Neve, who famously was blown 386 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,200 up by the IRA, wasn't it? And Thatcher's government and 387 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:29,640 Jimmy Langley. They wrote books, one of them with Mdr Foot, 388 00:23:30,519 --> 00:23:35,400 but they didn't have access to declassified files. So Yale 389 00:23:35,519 --> 00:23:37,839 University Press sort of, you know, put it to me, 390 00:23:38,039 --> 00:23:40,480 wouldn't it be good to write an updated version of 391 00:23:40,519 --> 00:23:42,440 the m I nine and what more can we discover? 392 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,000 And then we kind of sat there and realized it 393 00:23:45,079 --> 00:23:49,039 had been forty years since anyone had written its history, 394 00:23:49,839 --> 00:23:53,039 and forty years and the file to come out in 395 00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:57,079 the meantime. So what I've done, and I think it's 396 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,880 worked very well, is you've got the organization of m 397 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,920 I nine in the background, in the American equivalent, but 398 00:24:03,079 --> 00:24:08,119 within that, and it's done chronologically. I've told and woven 399 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,960 the stories, the key stories escape routes across Europe. I 400 00:24:12,079 --> 00:24:16,440 concentrate primarily on Western Europe because it's a huge topic. Otherwise, 401 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,759 so that people get an understanding of the achievements, not 402 00:24:20,799 --> 00:24:23,359 only the organization. It's not dry that I am. I 403 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,720 intered in the human stories. Those thousands of men and 404 00:24:27,839 --> 00:24:33,720 women who acted as helpers, guides, couriers, who saved are personnel. 405 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,920 Their acts of bravery really shined through and they are extraordinary. 406 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I know you even mentioned Mary Lindell. I think, yes, 407 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,240 one of the females, one of the only females I 408 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,039 think right In regards to parachuting or something like that. 409 00:24:49,079 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 4: Perrier, well, yeah, there was Vitres Truand who was parachuted 410 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,079 into Holland. But Holland was a very tricky situation. She 411 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,279 was captured. Nine had a top secret section called IS 412 00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:07,319 nine or Intelligence School nine. It stood for also under 413 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,400 the umbrella known as Room nine hundred and this they love, 414 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,960 all these obscure names. It's the same thing. But Room 415 00:25:14,039 --> 00:25:19,119 nine hundred was sending agents behind enemy lines, and Beatrice 416 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,319 Truda was one of them behind enemy lines in the 417 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,680 same way as we think of SE the Special Approations Executive. 418 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,119 Everybody knows about SOE and the courageous agents men and women. 419 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,880 And you have the Americans too, don't you. There were 420 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,799 parachute behind enemy lines, drop behind any lines, all sorts 421 00:25:35,799 --> 00:25:40,440 of ways, landed by boat, whatever. But m I nine, 422 00:25:40,839 --> 00:25:43,519 under its top secret section, Room nine hundred percenting its 423 00:25:43,599 --> 00:25:47,359 own agents, and Mary Lindell was another one who worked. 424 00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:51,240 She also we believe had some links with MI six 425 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,440 SIS as it's also known, so she was also sort 426 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,279 of working with them. But she went on to save 427 00:25:57,079 --> 00:26:00,680 known as the Cockleshell Heroes, and they were the condos 428 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,400 that were on top secret mission to Bordeaux canoe down 429 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:09,359 the river to place limpet mines on the German ships 430 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,319 in the port of Bordeaux. Two of them were successful, actually, 431 00:26:13,799 --> 00:26:16,119 but only two of them got back and the rest 432 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,519 lost their lives. So it's hugely dangerous mission of twelve 433 00:26:19,599 --> 00:26:25,039 of them involved, and Mary Lindell surveys. Sorry Mary Lindell 434 00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:32,200 rescued the only two survivors of that mission, and her 435 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,279 bravery against steely Nerve is really worth reading about. In 436 00:26:36,319 --> 00:26:38,119 the book She Was Fearsome. 437 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,279 Speaker 2: It was an amazing There's so many incredibly strong, brave 438 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,319 females in the world of espionage and World War Two 439 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,720 and over the years, it's amazing as you listen to 440 00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:49,279 some of these stories. 441 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 3: Again, folks. 442 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 2: The book is called them I nine The History of 443 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,319 the Secret Service for Escape and Invasion in World War 444 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,839 Two by doctor Helen Frye. We also talked a little 445 00:26:57,839 --> 00:26:59,880 bit about her other books, Through the Walls, Heavy Ears. 446 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,119 She's got over twenty books, that's right, twenty books focusing 447 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,039 on intelligence and POW's and World War Two. So if 448 00:27:06,039 --> 00:27:09,519 this is your genre, definitely recommend the books. If you 449 00:27:09,599 --> 00:27:12,279 haven't read the genre, I highly recommend the books. It's 450 00:27:12,319 --> 00:27:14,880 kind of hard not to recommend the book, doctor Frye. 451 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,920 I guess as we get away from these last two 452 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,480 books now, just a couple of questions in regards to 453 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,039 things in society people always kind of wonder about. I guess, 454 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,400 is there are there any movies out there? And I 455 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,400 know this might be a little tricky because you're overseas, 456 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,839 over there across the pond, as they say. But are 457 00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:32,880 there any movies that stand out for you that you 458 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,039 say that's pretty spot on or that's way off the 459 00:27:36,079 --> 00:27:37,759 mark in regards to World War Two? 460 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 4: Well, there was one that came out recently actually called 461 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,519 A Call to Spy and it is available on like 462 00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:52,279 the Netflix platform and others. And for me, that seemed 463 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:58,440 very very close to a story about female agents in 464 00:27:58,519 --> 00:28:03,319 France dropped into France. And usually those stories are quite similar, 465 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,759 you know, previous films, but this one, there's something special 466 00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:11,480 about this one, and you get a close understanding of 467 00:28:11,519 --> 00:28:15,440 the difficult decisions which face the lady who sent the 468 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,160 female agents in particular, and well and she sent male 469 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,039 agents into France was one Vera Atkins, And you get 470 00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:25,240 a sense the film has very the first time has 471 00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:30,279 focused on her and three of her agents, and I 472 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:36,200 think we finally, very subtly get an understanding of the 473 00:28:36,279 --> 00:28:40,680 challenges she faced and how it worked behind the scenes, 474 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,680 and then that's woven into the brave story of people 475 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,519 like yak Nor Khan. And I always forget the name 476 00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:51,920 of the American one that where it was dropped in 477 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,240 with the wooden leg. Her name escapes me immediately. I remember, 478 00:28:55,359 --> 00:29:00,240 since you finished the interview, it'll come to me. Virginia Hall. 479 00:29:01,119 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 2: There you go. 480 00:29:02,279 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, very brave woman. In fact, she was smuggled out 481 00:29:06,319 --> 00:29:09,880 of France over the Pyrenees by the M I nine networks. 482 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:15,039 Oh really interestingly. Yeah, it's a fantastic scene in the 483 00:29:15,079 --> 00:29:18,000 film A Call to Spy, and I hugely recommend it 484 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,839 where she is struggling and you just get the sense of, 485 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,359 oh my gosh, how difficult it was to get out 486 00:29:24,359 --> 00:29:27,039 over the Pyrenees. And there she is struggling with her 487 00:29:27,079 --> 00:29:31,359 wooden leg, but she does make it, she escapes, and yeah, 488 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,200 you get a sense of the bravery. And to me, 489 00:29:35,319 --> 00:29:37,640 it feels as though that film was kept very close 490 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:43,400 to reality, and it felt very real. Yeah. So I 491 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,920 enjoyed that film very much and I'm a huge fan 492 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:46,319 of it. 493 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 2: Oh, I have I have to look at that card Despi. 494 00:29:51,079 --> 00:29:53,680 I guess I'd be remissing. I don't mention it. What 495 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,839 are your thoughts, as I know you're more of a 496 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:01,319 historian per se than solely focused on spies, but what's 497 00:30:01,359 --> 00:30:03,200 your take on James Bond. 498 00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:10,799 Speaker 4: No, that's not controversial at all. Okay, a couple of 499 00:30:10,799 --> 00:30:14,319 things about James Bond. I think I've grown to enjoy 500 00:30:14,359 --> 00:30:19,079 the films more as I've got older. I love the 501 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,160 more recent ones. I think they're fantastic. Yeah, I do. 502 00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:26,279 And Okay, he's always blowing up. The big buildings are 503 00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:29,319 falling on top of him almost and he's leaping between, 504 00:30:29,519 --> 00:30:32,759 you know, doing the impossible. But we expect that that's 505 00:30:32,759 --> 00:30:36,480 what we want from our James Bond. Our Ian Fleming's 506 00:30:36,559 --> 00:30:40,960 characters the license that's gone further. But interestingly it is 507 00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:44,400 quite a bit, certainly in the early stuff which comes 508 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:49,079 from Ian Fleming's wartime career. So there's me merely thinking 509 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,559 he's been quite a genius in you know, these novels. 510 00:30:54,079 --> 00:30:56,559 But the escape gadgets, for example, they're part of m 511 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,160 I nine, and Fleming was linked to m I nine. 512 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,559 I think for me it's also fun. I don't sit 513 00:31:02,599 --> 00:31:05,720 there and watch the James Bond films and think, oh, 514 00:31:05,759 --> 00:31:08,519 I've read that in the files. I do sit there 515 00:31:08,519 --> 00:31:12,759 and I enjoy them, but I think now i'm older, 516 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,279 I think I enjoy them because you get a sense 517 00:31:16,359 --> 00:31:18,519 that in places they are very close to the truth. 518 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,039 But as with everything, it's walls and mirrors, and you 519 00:31:22,119 --> 00:31:25,279 don't know which bits are absolutely true, but you just 520 00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:27,839 get a feeling that it is rooted in that world. 521 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,440 And of course it's gone beyond that world. It's for 522 00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:35,240 our entertainment, But I do love Fleming stuff. Yeah, I guess. 523 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 2: My other question is one of my favorite shows from 524 00:31:37,519 --> 00:31:39,000 the UK was Foyle's War. 525 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 4: I love Foyle's War. If anybody's listening that has any influence, 526 00:31:46,039 --> 00:31:48,000 please we want more of Foyle's War. 527 00:31:48,599 --> 00:31:52,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, bring back Michael Kitchen. What's your take on that? 528 00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:54,319 That seem to be pretty accurate or is it far off? 529 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 4: Yes, Yeah, it's very accurate. In a couple of places 530 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:03,119 they change the locals, but there is a scene, for example, 531 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,720 an interrogation scene. It's very close to the truth. And 532 00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:10,640 that tips over into another book I did on the 533 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,480 London cage as it was called cage slang interrogation quarters. 534 00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:20,680 So yeah, he does meticulous research and he's quite open 535 00:32:20,799 --> 00:32:23,920 I believe about the fact that some of it is 536 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,839 based is being inspired by stuff he's read in the 537 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:29,000 National Archives. 538 00:32:31,079 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 2: Amazing, amazing. 539 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,519 Speaker 4: Across the whole series. Yeah. 540 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, and how he takes that personal human side of 541 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,880 that time. That's the amazing thing for me, because you see, 542 00:32:43,119 --> 00:32:45,400 it wasn't just about the war, it was about everything 543 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:51,079 else that disrupts, love, lives. Yeah, family, Everything was just amazing. 544 00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 4: And Foyle himself says very little. If you think about 545 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,960 how many lines he says, it's all about his face 546 00:33:00,279 --> 00:33:03,839 and his movements, and he's just a glance and it 547 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,279 says it all. We all understand what it means. But yeah, 548 00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:10,880 if your viewers can get hold of if they haven't 549 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,759 seen Foyle's War, yeah, it's absolutely brilliant. And the twists 550 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:15,440 and things. 551 00:33:15,559 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 2: Yeahs, I'm sorry. 552 00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:22,559 Speaker 4: I had a lot of murders in that area of Hastings, 553 00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:25,200 didn't they in World War Two? According to Foyle's War. 554 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a serial killer on the loose over there. 555 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,079 Speaker 4: I know, it's fantastic stuff. I loved it. I loved it. 556 00:33:33,599 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 2: I guess my last question, I guess we'll wrap up 557 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,400 with Hitler. Is he really dead or not? I can't believe. 558 00:33:38,519 --> 00:33:41,319 I know where people still believe Elvis Presley over here 559 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,039 is possibly still alive, and JFK is somewhere as well. Hitler. 560 00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:48,599 It was interesting because I think even Discovery Channel or HBO, 561 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,240 what are those cable channels took it a step further 562 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,079 last year when they started doing a documentary on Hitler 563 00:33:54,079 --> 00:33:55,960 and his general's over in Argentina. 564 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, so he got crazy. 565 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 4: What do you say, Well, it's not something I've personally 566 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,079 researched myself about the whole crep of Nazi flight and 567 00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:10,880 those that got out to Argentina, etc. But yeah, I mean, 568 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,800 of course Hitler would be dead now, he'd be far 569 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,559 too old to be still alive, so that we know. 570 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,880 So answer to your question, is he dead? The answer 571 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,119 is yes. Do I think he made it out of 572 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:26,400 the bunker? No, I think he died in the bunker, 573 00:34:27,119 --> 00:34:30,760 But there's always you know, you never know for sure 574 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,760 because you know that could be turned on its head. 575 00:34:34,039 --> 00:34:38,639 But based on the current evidence we have, yes, it's 576 00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:41,679 I think, yeah, he died in the bunker. In fact, 577 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,400 I interviewed a veteran who is still alive, and he 578 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,400 was involved in counterintelligence in that period at the end 579 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,360 of the war. He was on he came over on 580 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,719 the Kinder transports. He's of the young, slightly younger, he's 581 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,320 still in his late nineties now, and he said there's 582 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,920 absolutely no doubt that Hitler died in the bunker because 583 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,360 I asked him, I said, look, this is flying around 584 00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:06,480 and there's absolutely no question according to him, that Hitler 585 00:35:06,519 --> 00:35:08,840 died in the bunker. So yeah, I'm not a fan 586 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:10,239 of conspiracy theories. 587 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,679 Speaker 2: I'm not either, but sometimes make for interesting chats. 588 00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 4: I guess, well, look, it gets us thinking and reassessing evidence. 589 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,599 I think that's always important that we that we're challenged 590 00:35:24,639 --> 00:35:26,000 at times. 591 00:35:26,679 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Again, folks, of the books doctor Helen 592 00:35:30,519 --> 00:35:33,320 frye f r Y. The book is m I nine, 593 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,159 a history of the Secret Service for escaping invasion in 594 00:35:36,199 --> 00:35:38,519 World War Two. The other book we talk briefly about 595 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:40,840 as well in the beginning of the show. Again briefly 596 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,000 is because they're only touching the tip of the iceberg, folks, 597 00:35:43,039 --> 00:35:45,840 it's called The Walls Half Ears. Another great book she 598 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,480 just mentioned. I think it's The London Cage. But she 599 00:35:48,519 --> 00:35:51,199 has over twenty books, lots of books focusing on intelligence 600 00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:54,280 and POWs. So if you're into the espionage world, these 601 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,159 are the books for you. Doctor fry Thank you so 602 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:57,679 much for. 603 00:35:57,599 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 4: Being here, Thank you for having me. 604 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,159 Speaker 2: Fabulous stuff, folks, Thank you for listening. Make sure to share, subscribe. Hey, 605 00:36:04,159 --> 00:36:06,039 if you're on Apple give us those five stars. We 606 00:36:06,159 --> 00:36:08,880 truly appreciate it. Thanks for listening, everybody