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Speaker 1: Matt Frad and Trent Horne. Are we not supposed to

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be Orthodox?

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Speaker 2: Why our East Orthodox? Yeah? And there are people. Rodrere

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is an example of this. So Rodrere is a conservative commenter,

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and he left the church over the scandal, which I

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think is a poor thing to do because, frankly, you

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look at studies. I read one study that said this

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is as bad, if not worse, in Protestant churches, and

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it's probably even worse in public schools. So I'm sure

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when you see these scandals in Jewish Orthodox temples of

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sexual abuse, I'm sure there are skeletons hiding in the

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Eastern Orthodox closet, right, you know.

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Speaker 1: However, so first argument is that Rodrere as an example

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of that you shouldn't become Orthodox because of the scandals.

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So I'm going to agree and disagree with Trent on this.

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Why would I agree here? Well, to simply say, oh,

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I'm going to become Orthodox because there are moral and

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ethical scandals is not a good reason. And Trent is

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correct to say that, guess what, there's moral scandals and

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moral problems, ethical problems in all the churches. So this

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is actually a good point. And if that was somebody's

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sole reason, that's a bad reason. Also, by the way,

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you know, Ubi made this point I think a while

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back that if your reason for becoming Orthodox was because

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you want to be a based trad that's not a

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good reason became Orthodox. Now, I think that these kinds

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of questions are good things that maybe get us questioning

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and looking at Orthodoxy, but those are not good enough reasons.

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So I actually agree with Trent there. However, one last

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point I would say is that this scale and scope

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of this problem in Rome is far greater, I think

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than in these other domains. Maybe Trent has a point

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when it comes to public education that might could be

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argued that there's equal scale and scope, But I don't

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think that the scale and scope of this problem in

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Orthodoxy comes anywhere close to the scale and scope with

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this problem in Rome. So that's where I'm going to disagree.

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Speaker 2: Decked out it is, and like old light candles and stuff. Yeah,

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you'll find this stuff everywhere. It's not going to go away.

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But Dreer tried to defend it by saying, well, I

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looked at the evidence for papal infallibility in the papacy,

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and it's not all there. It's inflated, and I just

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disagree with that. I think the biggest difference, of course

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between being Eastern Orthodox and you and I belong to

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Eastern churches. The Byzantine Church is Eastern. And after the skip.

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Speaker 1: By the way again it should be pointed out. Remember

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their position is that the Roman Catholic Church is the

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true church, it has the goods, and that applies to

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anything in communion with Rome, according to them. So why

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is it that the whole crop of the Roman Catholic

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YouTube world of apologists all attend Eastern right churches. How

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come they don't just go to the novisorta. Why do

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these people all flock to what is the imitation of

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what we have when their whole position is that we've

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got the goods and their position necessitates that we've got

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the goods means also the novsorto, and yet they don't

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go to the novsorto. Isn't that telling? Isn't that interesting?

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Speaker 2: Some of ten fifty four, which it wasn't a moment

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the churches were growing apart for centuries, but after that,

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because there were people even in the year twelve hundred

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who thought that they were still a part of the

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Catholic Church. But who were in the East, Like, what happened?

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Speaker 3: Didn't nobody tell me?

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Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, well, they didn't have bad news to log

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onto on the internet every day. So, but then after

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the schism there were a large segment of churches in

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the East who came back to union. The Orthodox came

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back to union with the pope. And for me, the

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papacy is a gift that God has given the church.

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That makes sense one of the important things in being Catholic.

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Speaker 1: If the papacy makes sense, then why is the papacy

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such an issue of contention right now in the Roman

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Catholic world, and especially since the time of Attican two.

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I mean again, you'll find that they always just appeal

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to this sort of the simple pragmatic argument. Look, it

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just makes sense. Look, it's just gonna help with unity. Look,

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it's going to solve the problems. And does it actually

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do that, No, it doesn't. Remember, ninety percent of their

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apologetic of these guys is you need this office because

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it's going to solve all the problems that you have.

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Yet when we do the problem analysis, we don't find

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that it actually provides the thing that it's supposed to do.

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It doesn't provide unity, it doesn't provide clarity. In fact,

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if you remember when we did the for the two

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four hour streams, the eight hours of response to Trent,

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remember that right got a lot of views on that.

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We saw that Trent himself was struggling consistently with how

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to make sense of And here's your various ways to

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interpret Francis on the death penalty. Why do we have

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to give varying interpretations of something that's supposed to be

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a clarifying statement on basic morals? Why do we even

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have to have the pope clarifying the basic morals which

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are now ambiguous, which related to quote, natural justice in

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the traditional Roman cality view. But remember what's he doing here?

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Just falling back on these kinds of pragmatic low tier.

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Oh it'll just make it easy, Oh it'll make it simple,

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it'll solve the problems. Again, the last seventy years of

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Roman Catholicism illustrate nothing but the opposite of that chaos, collapse,

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lack of clarity, greater and greater confusion, greater and greater

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moral revulsion, especially when it came to Rome itself on

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quote clarifying moral issues. So the irony is that the

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selling points that these guys always fall back on are

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the very things that they're also always having to deal with.

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That it's not practical, it's not clarifying anything, it's not

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making anything better, it's not producing unity. And this is

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ninety five percent of they're apologetic, is what papal lawyering.

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Speaker 2: Because you might say, I could have all that with

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East Orthodoxy, but here's the problem with that. If the

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Church is the Kingdom of God, you know, Jesus says

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that the Kingdom of God is now among us, the

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Kingdom of Heaven, that this is the Kingdom of God

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on earth. And shouldn't this kingdom be organized similar to

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the kingdom God also ran, which is the Kingdom of Israel.

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When we look at Israel, God was the king. You

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had the King of Israel. Obviously God is sovereign overall

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that you had the king like David. But then you

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also had the prime minister or the phazier. So in

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the second twenty second chapter of the Book of Isa,

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it talks about the wicked Shebnah who would be replaced

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by the righteous alia Kim as the prime minister. He

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is under the king, but his authority over the kingdom

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is massive. What he opens, none shall shut. What he

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shuts none shall open. I shall give him the keys

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to the kingdom. I believe Isaiah twenty two twenty two

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actually even uses the phrase the house of in the

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chapter twenty two uses the phrase the house.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing to see the texts that are, you know,

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the most obvious, you know, Messianic prophecies about the person

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of Christ and which could be applied in an extended

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way to various apostles in the in the Apostolic College.

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But the idea that we actually need to revert to

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an office that was characteristic of the Old Testament is

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pretty hilarious, right, I mean this is like, did you

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not understand that this is an office now fulfilled? Why

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would we go back and revert to? And if you

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guys remember, Ubi did a whole debate on this, right,

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he debated Suan Sona precisely on this issue. I think

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that Suon completely totally lost because what did Suon have

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to go to to back up this goofy exegesus Talmudic tradition.

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He literally relied on a look like a gigantic portion

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of his argument in that debate was the Jewish Talmudic tradition.

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Saw you know, various stewards in this role when the

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prophecy is a prophecy of Christ and the role of

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Christ right and have the romancalolicies just not understood that,

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like Jesus fulfills these roles. And the reason that we

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don't need a visible earthly visier in the sense of

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the papacy is because of the Holy Spirit. Did you

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hear about this. There's a thing called Pentecost, and at Pentecost,

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when this is poured out on the whole Apostolic college,

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Jesus that that spirit would lead and guide you all

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into truth. Did he say, I will breathe on Peter,

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and then Peter will breathe on you. Did he say

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the tongues of fire will fall on Peter and then

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Peter will hand them onto you. That's the Roman Catholic

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model after the Middle Ages. Do you understand this literally?

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That's their view. You don't get the Holy Spirit apart

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from the pope, and the pope like saying that it's

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okay for you to be a bishop and to have jurisdiction.

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So essentially, and again, a lot of people are pointed

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this out, like the phillyoqua ends up kind of being

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like the Holy Spirit comes through the pope. Basically the

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whole religion is the Pope. And that's why it's a

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deformation and an innovation. And you need to look no

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further than the delusion, the chaos, the pre last in

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the outright, just wild heresies throughout the Roman communion that

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actually don't characterize the majority of the Orthodox community. Are

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there a lot of sinners in the Orthodox community?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely?

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Speaker 1: Are there a lot of people who believe wrong things? Yes,

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do we have a lot of problems.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Do we have the problems that they have, Not necessarily

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we have some of them, But we don't have the

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mass delusion and chaos and weirdness and lack of fundamentals

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in terms of doctrine. I mean, in other words, it's

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fundamental to believe in the monarchia of the Father, to

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believe in the essen sentergy, distinction, to believe in uncreated

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grace and theosis. Is that fundamental in their church? Absolutely not.

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You have to flee to the fringes of the Uniates

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to find the traces of the stuff that is normally

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live in our churches. So the very existence of these

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people in the Uniate circles and on the fringe of

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Rome proves us. It's staring them in the face by

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the fact that they go to the Uniate churches.

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Speaker 2: Of David, which is something actually rare to find in

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the Old Testament, excepting certain prophecies. It's very important to

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talk about here. So, of course, if you recognize.

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Speaker 1: At and again this is all just watch Ubi's debate

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with Suan. The whole debate is over this silly argument

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and the mid Rash exegesus of the texts right that

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ignore the whole purpose of this being about Christ. This

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is kind of goofy. Remember when I had the debate

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with Nick, and Nick said, what that I am? I

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am he who holds the keys of death and Hades

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right in the Apocalypse. How did they interpret? How do you?

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He said, that's Peter is Jesus talking clear as day.

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It's not Peter, so Roman Catholic exogesus, or in this

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case we say, isa, Jesus will take things that are

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Messianic prophecies, predictions of Christ and his role and just

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say it's about Peter and his earthly It's so the

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religion is literally about Peter, not in the sense of

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actually Peter, Saint Peter, but this mythical idea of the

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papacy the whole religion is that what do all these

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people constantly debate the papacy. The papacy, that's all they

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talk about. This is probably why they're so bad at apologetics,

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because the whole religion is the papacy. Well, Jelle, what

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do you and I always said we debate. These guys

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are always like unfollowing Peter, and by Peter they mean

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the papacy, right, because we believe to see Peter's on

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every bishop and bring up for the audience. Uh, your

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argument from indefectibility. It's a great one. Yeah. So essentially

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what we've gotten to in modern day Roman Catholic apologists

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that are in this sphere is the idea that rather

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than I'm gonna, you know, to move away from the

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question of infallibility. Not that you can't debate infallibility. I

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think it's funny and you can go down that route,

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but they'll just always have this out where they'll just say, well,

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but he's only infallible in X y Z cases, and

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I will tell you when that is right. So every

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individual Catholic will have their own list of when he's

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being fallible, when he's not being infallible, and so the

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better way to construct this argument is to talk about indefectibility.

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And this is better because we know Vatican one is

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teaching very clearly that the Roman Sea will never defect

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from the faith until the end of the world. It

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will contain valid successors until the return of Christ, Vatican

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One says, So that means that wor one second, I

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just wanted to I just gallo something. You know how

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there's the no true Scotsman policy, right do you think

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there's the no absolutely Yeah, yeah, it's it's again, it's

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it's another. It's a great way to apply that fallacy

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to the way they reason about the problems for the papacy.

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It becomes a situation where just let's like this, the

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pope is indefectible, the Sea of Rome is indefectible until

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he defects, which is to say nothing. So basically a

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meaningless statement which allows every individual Roman Catholic to simply

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say that I will accept and reject the papacy insofar

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as it applies to my own version of papalism. And

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that's why every single Roman Catholic will have a different

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list of what the infallible teachings actually are. And again,

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this whole system should at least give us the list.

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Speaker 3: What did that?

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Speaker 1: Roman Catholics always come over to us and say.

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Speaker 3: Where's your list to dogmas?

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Speaker 1: Where's where's your list of dogmas? Oh, they don't have it?

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Exactly what do they have? They have a couple criteria

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of categories to rank the authority of the various teachings

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and dogmas, which is then up to every individual Catholic

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to apply and to try to make sense with mental gymnastics.

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How the system isn't chaos and nonsense. Thus it's arbitrary

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because they will say, the Roman see cannot defect from

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the faith. That is the promise of the terrorism to

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Peter and the Roman sea of Corneabatican one will always

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exist as a constituent, fundamental element of the Roman Church.

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It's the essence of the Roman Church. Okay, So now

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how do we explain the last seventy years of chaos, madness, destruction,

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blah blah, blah blah blah from the sea of Roman itself. Ah,

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you see, let's now apply all the arbitrary criteria about

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which I can say, I don't have to accept all

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the bad stuff, which is to say that he's indefectible

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until or unless he defects, which is to say absolutely nothing.

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That's an unfalsifiable, ridiculous, nonsense position. And this is what

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they're all doing. This applies to the sadas, to the

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Novus Ordos, to the SSPX. It doesn't matter. This argument

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right here applies to all of them and destroys this

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entire goofy system because the whole thing is built on

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this guy in Rome and his successors and his predecessors

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and what they do and say on a weekly basis,

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the soap opera drama of Rome. So when you watch

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a debate between a set of a contest and a

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non set of a contest, you will realize that, hey, wait,

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they're both right and they're both wrong, because they're both

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actually pointing out the fact that this system doesn't work.

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And it doesn't work because, on the one hand, it's

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an evolution of things that didn't exist in the first

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thousand years, such as universal jurisdiction such as ex cathedral

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pronouncements that evolves out of canonical privileges and traditions. That's it.

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So again, what's the ultimate easy refutation. All of these

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people are arguing that the Roman sea is indefectible. It

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provides unity, clarity, authority, et cetera. It's a solution. This

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is their number one apologetic, pragmatic argument. And then when

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all the problems arise that are theological and dogmatic with

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the papacy, oh, I don't have to follow those because

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x y z. I only have to follow him when

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x y z. Oh, is your criteria of when you

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follow and don't follow infallible because on your system it

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has to be right. This is the criteria problem applied

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to Roman Catholic dogmatics. Is the criteria it self infallible?

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It has to be if you're going to be consistent.

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Oh no, the criteria is from my interpretation of the criteria.

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You see, when I read what is extraordinary made universal, ordinary,

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magistrum ordinary magisterium, right, when I suss that out in

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these three generic categories, I must now apply my individual

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Catholic mental interpretive schema, and is that infallible? No? No

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Roman Catholic will say that's infallible. Okay, So actually what's

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going on here is that you have a theoretical infallibility

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that is never applicable in actual particular instances, and so

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it's not really infallibility. This is not a difficult argument.

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It's a very simple point. Anytime a problem is presented,

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what do they do? Throw that in the non infallible bin.

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Anytime that Francis or Rome says something that they agree with,

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that's in the infallible bin. And it never is the

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same amongst these very Catholics. Now, why do I keep

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making that point? Is that because I'm saying that, oh,

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in Orthodoxy everybody knows clearly the doctors, and now I'm

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saying that what this system pretends to offer, it's sales pitch.

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It doesn't actually deliver. So the system doesn't work, so

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we needed a different system. The argument is not that

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Orthodoxy has no problems, right. The argument is not Orthodoxy

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has the list of dogmas. The point is that there

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isn't that that doesn't exist. There's not the infallible list

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of dogmas that's going to solve the problems for you.

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Let's hear the rest of this.

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Speaker 2: Did I give you the keys what you opened and

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shall shut?

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Speaker 4: Then the Isaiah Abram becomes Abrahem, the father of many nations.

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Speaker 2: You know, people's names change, and the same is true

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for Peter. Why bother changing It has nothing to do

319
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with being the rock in the first place.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, but name changes throughout scripture. It doesn't follow

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from a name change that Vatican one is the case, right,

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I mean, every Orthodox person will agree that there is

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a special role of Peter, as Saint John Christsen calls him,

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the core fais the mouthpiece of the apostles. But all

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of these titles and all of these things in scripture

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are transformed. There's a bait and switch whereby oh you

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see that means Vatican one. Oh you see his names changed,

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that means Vatican one, And it's a non sequitor. If

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that was the case, that would have been the patristic understanding,

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that would have been the modus operandi of the Church

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in the first thousand years. And every one of these

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people admits that's not how the church operated when they

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admit that the papacy is a doc that developed, And

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then they contradict themselves and turn around and say, oh,

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but it was always there. Is it a seed that

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developed or was it always there?

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Speaker 3: It can't be.

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Speaker 1: Both because that's a mutually exclusive claim.

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Speaker 2: So I would see it would make sense then that

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if Christ established his church.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm sorry to realize that so much of

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this is bait and switch, because what do they do

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in natural theology bait and switch? What do we see

344
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at the beginning of this today's live stream quantifier shift fallacy? Oh,

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we all come from one mother, right, I come from

346
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a mother. You come from a mother. So we all

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come from one mother. Therefore we all believe in the

348
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same God. Musses believe in one God, Jews believe in

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one God. Christian's believe one God. Therefore that's the quanti

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of our shift fallacy. It's a fallacy. This is not

351
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rocket science. Go look up the fact. It's an obvious fallacy.

352
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And they don't do anything different with their papacy arguments. Look,

353
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Peter is first, so Vatican one it's a non sequitor. Dude,

354
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Rome is first in the cannons. Okay, that doesn't prove

355
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Vatican one again, guys, every time these people admit. On

356
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the one hand, what does the bar I say?

357
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Speaker 3: The papacy was always there from the earliest days. They

358
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he had this power, but he didn't always use it.

359
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It was just kind of theirs, just kind of you know,

360
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in the background, floating in the recesses of the Vatican.

361
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But he didn't have to always use it. He just

362
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broted up when he wanted to.

363
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Speaker 1: Oh but wait a minute, So it was always there

364
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in the background. He could have he could have thrown

365
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out that boom, plopped down that papal trump card.

366
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Speaker 3: Oh, but he didn't always use it. Well, the papacy

367
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is a doctrine that developed, Yeah, developed.

368
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Speaker 1: So is it always there or does it developed?

369
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Speaker 3: Is this.

370
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Speaker 1: Do we have contact gown contol to me to tom

371
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gown control to me.

372
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Speaker 3: It's a dumb.

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Speaker 1: It's not a difficult argument. Roman Catholics. Do you see

374
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that that's a contradiction. I know you're mad at me.

375
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I know you're furious, so you hate me, I don't care.

376
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,240
Pause your hatred and anger for a moment and understand

377
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,480
and think about whether this makes any sense. Some guy says,

378
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,000
I still don't get your point. How could it be

379
00:23:40,079 --> 00:23:46,160
the case that something is a unclear seed doctrine that develops,

380
00:23:46,839 --> 00:23:49,759
but at the same time it's always there and clear

381
00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:52,680
and present. Sis cognitium of the O the thirteenth says

382
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from the early stage of the church. These are mutually

383
00:23:55,599 --> 00:24:01,599
exclusive claims. Dummies, not rocket science. Mhm, it's it's not

384
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,519
that hard. Who can't see that? That's both of those

385
00:24:05,559 --> 00:24:07,599
things can't be this true at the same time. Maybe

386
00:24:07,599 --> 00:24:09,440
maybe in the Roman Cather world they can because of

387
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,200
the double think, right, maybe in their minds.

388
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Speaker 3: Dictions they are true. All both suits me.

389
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Speaker 2: Who is the pastor of that church?

390
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,599
Speaker 1: Who's the pastor that Notice these are all non sequiturs.

391
00:24:26,079 --> 00:24:28,559
Who's the who's the head of the church. If you

392
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don't have a pope, you don't have a head. Again,

393
00:24:31,759 --> 00:24:37,920
just assuming that, because here's another fallacy for example, Uh

394
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so Lofton does this where he says the papacy is

395
00:24:42,279 --> 00:24:49,000
divinely established, and anything divinely established can't go away. Oh really,

396
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,759
I'm pretty sure that a lot of things have been

397
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divinely established that went away, For example, the period of

398
00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,000
the Judges. The judges were divinely established. Does divinely establi

399
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:05,960
bablished therefore lead to eternal perpetuity? That is a great argument,

400
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,079
That's an excellent argument. I'm glad you brought it up.

401
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 3: Uh.

402
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 1: Paul says the New Testament that all authority comes from God,

403
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,599
including state authority. Does that mean that every state ruler

404
00:25:17,839 --> 00:25:21,519
rules in eternal perpetuity because it's divinely established? That is

405
00:25:21,599 --> 00:25:25,119
a non sequitur. So just because something is just divinely established,

406
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,559
it does not follow that it's an eternal perpetuity. But

407
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,119
this is the stupid fallacy that Lofton says all the time.

408
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're even when human beings make organizations, there's one

409
00:25:35,799 --> 00:25:38,599
guy on top, there's the Supreme is a general, a

410
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:39,880
president of prime.

411
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: So again this is just a non sequitor that because

412
00:25:42,839 --> 00:25:46,759
in other institutions human beings have a single visible head,

413
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,440
the Church must have a single visible head.

414
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Speaker 3: These people just.

415
00:25:50,079 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: Can't fathom that Christ is the head, and they think, well,

416
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he's all on earth.

417
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Speaker 3: Well, how's he going to rule?

418
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Speaker 1: That's what Pentecost is about. What does Jesus say in

419
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,880
the Upper Room when he's talking about Pentecost, I will

420
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:10,240
not leave you alone. Don't worry. I will be with you.

421
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I will be in your midst. Does he say through

422
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:22,160
a galactic emperor in France? No, he says through the spirit.

423
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So these people have actually again they lost the spirit

424
00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:29,799
due to the Phillyoquay heresy and it's not an accident

425
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,960
that at the time of Phillyoquay heresy, this is when

426
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:39,279
we begin to see creeping papalism to next levels, right,

427
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,759
next level, next, and it just grows in the Middle Ages

428
00:26:41,799 --> 00:26:44,400
right from next level, next level, we get unum signed them, right,

429
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,119
we get dictatus pope in the Middle Ages, right, just

430
00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:56,920
crazy level, crazy dimension, crazy pope dimension stuff. Do you

431
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,759
think it's accidental that that occurs after the philioaquay Er

432
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,680
of course not. Why Because the loss of the doctrine

433
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,960
of the Spirit, which leads to the subordination of the spirit,

434
00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:14,240
requires a human replacement for what the Holy Spirit would

435
00:27:14,519 --> 00:27:20,000
and does do they have just stuck the pope in

436
00:27:20,079 --> 00:27:22,279
the place of what the Holy Spirit is supposed to do.

437
00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:26,960
That's why in the Patristic period, the early Fathers, the

438
00:27:27,039 --> 00:27:31,079
post Apostolic fathers, they conceive of the Church as having

439
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,960
its fullness, its catholicity, in the local bishop, not in Rome.

440
00:27:36,839 --> 00:27:39,119
Doesn't mean that Rome didn't have a place of honor,

441
00:27:39,319 --> 00:27:43,640
that wasn't a shining sea. Everybody admits that. But notice

442
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,160
all of these people, all they do is just take

443
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,839
those things. Therefore Vatican one, Therefore, Vatican one, therefore and

444
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,279
that's a non sequitor.

445
00:27:54,839 --> 00:27:57,799
Speaker 2: Minister. It's like that episode of the Office where Jim

446
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,640
and Michael are co managers. It's like you're co managers

447
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,200
and oscars like, of course, who wouldn't make co managers?

448
00:28:05,319 --> 00:28:07,160
What would Catholicism be without the popes?

449
00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 3: Right?

450
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 1: Interesting because actually his position has the co manager's position

451
00:28:13,039 --> 00:28:15,440
because if you read when I'm sanctum, it basically makes

452
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,920
the pope a kind of co figure with Jesus. So

453
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:25,880
who's really running the show here? Is it Jesus or

454
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,279
is it actually the Pope has now been put in

455
00:28:28,319 --> 00:28:31,400
place of the role of the Holy Spirit. They just

456
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,359
can't fathom that the Holy Spirit is the one that

457
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,880
actually occupies this role and guides the church. They can't

458
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,000
fathom that you don't know the Holy Spirit without without

459
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,599
the Pope exactly. See, because they don't have the idea

460
00:28:47,279 --> 00:28:51,839
of direct perception of God through the News, through the energies.

461
00:28:53,759 --> 00:28:58,079
All they believe in is created grace, created effects. So

462
00:28:58,279 --> 00:29:04,400
clearly you're going to have a creator did adjudicator the pope.

463
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: But that makes sense because that's what you have an

464
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,119
Eastern Orthodoxy, because all of the bishops have this kind

465
00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:15,559
of equal authority the church becomes fragmented, and so what

466
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,319
happens is there's a lot of stasis.

467
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,759
Speaker 1: And so think, so would that mean that the Roman

468
00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:27,279
Communion is not fragmented? I mean, has anyone checked out

469
00:29:27,319 --> 00:29:29,880
the Roman Communion in the last sixty years? I mean

470
00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:35,960
this is becoming more and more of a really laughable exercise.

471
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,119
And you know, when I look over here at the

472
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,680
audience of pints with Aquinas or Trent, I mean this

473
00:29:42,759 --> 00:29:47,160
is really all geared towards just a very normy low

474
00:29:47,519 --> 00:29:50,519
information audience. Right. These are all people who don't really

475
00:29:50,559 --> 00:29:53,480
know much about these topics at all. They're new to

476
00:29:53,559 --> 00:29:57,359
this stuff, and so they find this very appealing and

477
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,240
very kind of inviting because it sounds good and it

478
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,960
sounds really easy. I'm so tired of my Protestant disputes

479
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,720
at my local church, and it's the way out of

480
00:30:06,759 --> 00:30:08,680
all this, Right. They think it's sort of people that

481
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,079
are on the honeymoon phase. They just start looking at

482
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,039
you know, Patristic quote minds right over on Catholic answers,

483
00:30:15,039 --> 00:30:16,279
and so they hear this stuff and they find it

484
00:30:16,359 --> 00:30:20,799
very convincing because it sounds good, but the reality is

485
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:25,039
something far different. And guess what if you've watched Matt's

486
00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:28,640
channel over the last couple of years, you've noticed the

487
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,200
struggle that Matt himself has with all these problems, to

488
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,720
the point now where they're having set of a contest

489
00:30:34,839 --> 00:30:41,920
on to debate, who, by the way, have a reputation

490
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,680
for being way more mean than me. But I'm not

491
00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:47,759
allowed to go and debate. They would never have me

492
00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:50,200
on there, As he says, Chido knew that they an't watch.

493
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,839
You know, he's too mean, right, But we all know

494
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,920
that the real reason that they wouldn't allow that is

495
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,079
because they can't handle this level of discussion and debate,

496
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,160
which is why none of them will touch Ubi. Ubi's

497
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,599
better than me on papacy stuff, and none of these

498
00:31:09,599 --> 00:31:12,160
people would. This is I mean again, guys. This is

499
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,440
stuff that I was hearing from Roman Catholics in two

500
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,920
thousand and three, okay, when I first started getting interested

501
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,720
in Roman Catholicism in two thousand and three. Is all

502
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,440
the stuff Trent is repeating. This is meant for and

503
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,599
spoken to very low teer, normy audiences, and all of

504
00:31:28,599 --> 00:31:34,720
these people are quickly learning that this pragmatic stuff doesn't

505
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,519
do much when you get into Rome and you're hearing

506
00:31:39,519 --> 00:31:42,440
all this stuff about what's on paper, and then you

507
00:31:42,559 --> 00:31:45,680
join in. Father Bruce is doing a hip hop mouse.

508
00:31:46,279 --> 00:31:49,200
Let's do a hip hop mouth. I'm gonna wrap you guys.

509
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,759
That's the reality on the ground. That's the novasorto, which

510
00:31:54,799 --> 00:31:58,400
is what eighty ninety percent of their church, not the

511
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,119
fringe Uni eate elements, which by the way, those are bad.

512
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 2: Two can't possibly change or grow in the sense of

513
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,680
authentic growth. So, to give you an example, since the schism,

514
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,400
the Orthodox have not had an ecumenical council. They can't

515
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:15,079
call one.

516
00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: They can't pull Yeah, but that's actually not true, right,

517
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,160
So since the schism, there have been multiple synods that

518
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,240
are universally received in the Orthodox Church, such as the

519
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,240
Palot White Synods, which our response to Lions and then

520
00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:33,599
also by extension to Florence. So, first of all, that's

521
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,000
not true that we haven't had authoritative synods. Secondly, it's

522
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,000
not actually the normative thing in the church to be

523
00:32:40,079 --> 00:32:45,880
governed by ecumenical councils. Ecumenical councils existed with the Christianization

524
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:51,240
of the oucumenae, And if Trent's thesis here is correct,

525
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,799
then we would have seen Rome calling ecumenical councils in

526
00:32:54,839 --> 00:32:58,440
the first three hundred years, right, So Trent's arguing that

527
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,720
that really the structure that church should be centered around

528
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:07,200
Rome calling the shots, calling the councils, saying yes, saying no.

529
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,000
Did any of that exist for three hundred years? Oh so,

530
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:16,960
on his own argument, his own church lacked the fundamental

531
00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:19,759
things of the church for the first three hundred years.

532
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,759
So he just owned himself by this dumb argument that'sab

533
00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:23,200
we do it.

534
00:33:23,279 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 3: No one.

535
00:33:23,519 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: I have talked to Orthodox friends. They'll say, well, that's

536
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,160
because the Pope would never agree to be a part

537
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,319
of something like that. I said, okay, well why not.

538
00:33:29,359 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: I don't know what what Orthodox friends he's talking about,

539
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,319
because that's like, you have to have a really dumb

540
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,000
Orthodox person to make that argument that we can't have

541
00:33:37,039 --> 00:33:41,039
an ecumenical council without Francis being involved. Francis is not

542
00:33:41,119 --> 00:33:44,279
part of the church, and neither are these people. And

543
00:33:44,319 --> 00:33:46,160
we have to say this not to be mean to

544
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,720
these people, but that that's our view, that's the honest

545
00:33:49,839 --> 00:33:53,200
Orthodox view. We don't do these people any favors by

546
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,480
pretending that we're all part of the same church. It's

547
00:33:55,519 --> 00:33:56,000
not true.

548
00:33:56,599 --> 00:34:00,279
Speaker 2: And Orthodox Council of just the Orthodox bishops, well one

549
00:34:00,279 --> 00:34:03,720
guy can always just kind of they can't, and so

550
00:34:04,039 --> 00:34:07,440
you're not able to address you don't have that unity

551
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,880
that a person who is given a special authority from

552
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:17,079
Christ to be, you know, the first among bishops, and

553
00:34:17,119 --> 00:34:19,199
the Orthodox say the pope has that title, but it

554
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:20,280
doesn't really mean much.

555
00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:23,039
Speaker 1: Well that's interesting because if this is the case, then

556
00:34:23,079 --> 00:34:28,159
why does Ratzinger and by extension, the post Vatican to Vatican,

557
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,239
why do they admit that the Orthodox Church has preserved

558
00:34:33,039 --> 00:34:40,440
its faith and it's doctrines, it's unity for the last

559
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,519
thousand years. So that's an admission that we preserve this

560
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,519
without the papacy for a thousand years. So the papacy

561
00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:53,559
actually isn't necessary.

562
00:34:53,599 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 3: So your own.

563
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 1: Popes admit that we don't need the pope. I mean,

564
00:34:58,559 --> 00:35:01,079
this is in Ratzinger's books. You might disagree with that,

565
00:35:01,559 --> 00:35:04,880
but my point is that, well, how come your authorities recognize.

566
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,079
Speaker 3: That, let's not an infallible statement.

567
00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: I don't have to axhipt that, okay, so what right?

568
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:09,639
Speaker 3: This is?

569
00:35:09,639 --> 00:35:11,119
Speaker 1: All they do is spur out and go to this

570
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,280
arbitrary of when it's infallible when it's not infallible, which

571
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:20,039
again they're going to have to have an infallible criteria

572
00:35:20,639 --> 00:35:23,079
when they say what isn't isn't infallible or else. That

573
00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:26,079
whole system falls apart into the contradiction. But as we've seen,

574
00:35:26,119 --> 00:35:28,480
they're not very good at logic and epistemology.

575
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,599
Speaker 2: But when you go back to the New Testament, it

576
00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:33,599
seems clear to me and even to many non Catholic commenters,

577
00:35:34,119 --> 00:35:36,199
that Peter was given special authority in.

578
00:35:36,159 --> 00:35:39,159
Speaker 1: The early So here we go again. The only things

579
00:35:39,199 --> 00:35:41,960
that matter to them are Matthew sixteen, right, So it's

580
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,360
like they don't care about the Bible at all until

581
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,199
they want to do isid Jesus with Isaiah twenty two

582
00:35:48,199 --> 00:35:50,559
in Matthew sixteen. They don't care about anything else. Do

583
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,920
they go to Acts fifteen where Peter is not the

584
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,199
voice of God and the final authority where it's James. No,

585
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,400
they don't do that, or they do this stupid thing

586
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,800
where they try to argue that it's a different Peter

587
00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:08,159
in Galatians one or a fact. I mean, just silly

588
00:36:08,559 --> 00:36:13,440
mental gymnastics. The whole system is nothing. But I'll use

589
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,079
the Bible for when it backs up the paper seat.

590
00:36:16,119 --> 00:36:17,519
The rest of the time. I don't care what the

591
00:36:17,519 --> 00:36:20,039
Bible says, and they don't, especially the trads. I mean

592
00:36:20,079 --> 00:36:22,719
they even say that they're happy that they don't read

593
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,199
the Bible, many of the trads that they're said on

594
00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:28,199
on Twitter all the time, right Reading the Bible is

595
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,920
a Protestant thing. They think the sell delusional and idiotic

596
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,920
these people are, but I mean, these are just terrible arguments.

597
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:40,360
This is this is car salesmanship. It's not argumentation. It's

598
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:45,920
let me sell you something, and uh, you'll deal with

599
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,119
the problems of what it really is down the road.

600
00:36:48,599 --> 00:36:53,119
It's a car. It's a car salesman. It's an online entrepreneur.

601
00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:57,639
Bro right, it's get involved in my crypto yield farming scam.

602
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,199
There might be some problems down the road, but you're

603
00:37:00,199 --> 00:37:03,679
gonna make big books in the in the meantime. Right now,

604
00:37:05,559 --> 00:37:10,800
it's like a religious Ponzi scheme. And can't you guys

605
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,199
see that it's there. It's a salesmanship thing, like it's

606
00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:16,719
a it's a it's a it's an ad. It's a

607
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:17,440
sales pitch.

608
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,119
Speaker 2: Church. J. N. D. Kelly was an Anglican scholar, says

609
00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:27,719
that Peter was undoubtedly the leader of the Early Church.

610
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: Again, nobody disputes this was disputed as that leader of

611
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:40,679
the Early Church Coryphaeus having your name changed, that that

612
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,760
equates the Vatican One. Again, it's a bait and switch,

613
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,840
and he knows. I don't even think he's probably read

614
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,400
Vatican one, right, because in the in the debates, and

615
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,079
when I listened to him, and when we when we

616
00:37:52,079 --> 00:37:54,519
did the deconstruction of his whole theme, it wasn't evident

617
00:37:54,559 --> 00:37:56,800
to me that he actually has read what the texta

618
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,559
Vatican One actually says. Printed out it's fifteen pages. Go

619
00:37:59,599 --> 00:38:02,960
to that peoplencyclicals dot net print out the whole fifteen

620
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,360
pages of the Vatican One, and also print out Satist

621
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,239
Cognidium because it's just as important, because it's a papal

622
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:14,519
explanation of Vatican one's ideas by Leo the thirteenth. I

623
00:38:14,559 --> 00:38:16,559
know he's not the popa Vatican One, but I'm saying

624
00:38:16,559 --> 00:38:20,519
that Satist Coggnidium lays out the theology of the papacy

625
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:26,039
about itself. Okay, I don't think he knows what Vatican

626
00:38:26,079 --> 00:38:28,960
one actually says. I don't think Trent has read Denzinger

627
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,519
from cover to cover, and when you do read dnsing

628
00:38:32,599 --> 00:38:35,159
or from cover to cover, will these people will not

629
00:38:35,199 --> 00:38:36,920
debate you. That's why they won't debate me.

630
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 2: And this is mentioned more than anyone else put together.

631
00:38:41,119 --> 00:38:44,199
Speaker 1: Again, none of this proves Vatican One. So this is

632
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:49,400
all spacious argumentation. It's all fallacious argumentation. But remember these

633
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,199
people are not very swift when it comes to epistemology

634
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,280
and argumentation. They constantly make these non sequitor It doesn't

635
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,000
follow from that the Vatican one is the case, right,

636
00:39:00,159 --> 00:39:02,559
So they're trying to seed to you. And I know

637
00:39:02,639 --> 00:39:04,760
this because this is how I was duped into all

638
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:11,400
these these papal views. Right. My thought process was, here's

639
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,800
all the quote minds about Peter and Rome, so this

640
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,679
has got to be this has got to be true.

641
00:39:17,679 --> 00:39:20,159
It's got to be where it's at. But I didn't realize,

642
00:39:20,159 --> 00:39:22,079
Oh wait a minute, what if it's more nuanced than that.

643
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:28,719
What if the Orthodox reading is another alternative reading of

644
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:34,119
all this stuff? Because maybe it doesn't follow that because

645
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,000
of this statements about Peter that Vatican one is the case,

646
00:39:37,039 --> 00:39:42,440
because Vatican one is many many centuries after this stuff, right,

647
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,159
So he's trying to get you to think, well, because

648
00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:51,639
there's these statements about Peter, we've got the goods, and

649
00:39:52,079 --> 00:39:55,079
doesn't it obviously follow that all the other stuff is true?

650
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,519
But no, it doesn't. And remember he's a foundationalist. This

651
00:39:58,599 --> 00:40:01,079
is all an evidentialist base anyway, So how am I

652
00:40:01,079 --> 00:40:04,639
supposed to know from these piece mal pieces of data

653
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,920
that he's throwing out there that Vatican one centuries later

654
00:40:09,039 --> 00:40:11,599
is the case that doesn't follow, that doesn't follow on

655
00:40:11,679 --> 00:40:14,360
his system.

656
00:40:14,519 --> 00:40:18,119
Speaker 2: He speaks for the group in Matthew chapter ten when

657
00:40:18,159 --> 00:40:21,639
the apostles are listed. This is kind of funny, Pete, Well,

658
00:40:21,639 --> 00:40:23,760
you look at the apostolic lists and almost all of them.

659
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: Okay, this is all just the I mean, none of

660
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,360
this proves Vatican one, and he's not being honest with

661
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,880
the audience or he just doesn't know what Vatican one says,

662
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,480
because he's acting as if like this leads to the

663
00:40:36,599 --> 00:40:38,840
Roman Calli view. I'm gonna skip ahead because this is

664
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,599
all just you know, just typical, uh, you know, Peter, Peter, Peter,

665
00:40:43,679 --> 00:40:47,719
therefore Vatican one. And does he ever list or talk

666
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,599
about the things that don't comport with the Vatican one

667
00:40:51,679 --> 00:40:55,679
reading of this stuff? For example, Paul rebuking Peter and

668
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,440
telling him that he's completely wrong about the gospel. How

669
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,880
does that come with this Bologney line that Trent is

670
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,039
spilling here. How does Acts fifteen not putting Peter as

671
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:11,480
the final mouthpiece of God comport with what he's saying.

672
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,280
How does the fact that Jesus says to the entire

673
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,280
college of the Apostles in Matthew eighteen, the very same

674
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,800
thing he says in Matthew sixteen comport with this. They

675
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,280
never talk about that. All they care about is Matthew

676
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,679
sixteen and propping up this big, dumb system. That's all

677
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,000
they care. They don't even care about the objections. They

678
00:41:35,199 --> 00:41:39,639
blow past every objection. They don't even treat the objections.

679
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 2: He didn't want to, He didn't want to offend the

680
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,920
Jews with him, and Paul's like, come on, man, you

681
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,679
say one thing and then you're not going to dine

682
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,480
with the Gentiles, just setting a bad example. He was

683
00:41:50,519 --> 00:41:55,039
not he was not beducing, he was not walking upright

684
00:41:55,119 --> 00:41:57,639
in the faith. Well, like you go to an orthopedic

685
00:41:57,679 --> 00:42:00,679
surgeon means get your back straight. So Paul is saying,

686
00:42:00,679 --> 00:42:02,360
you're not walking with straight back. You're not walking up

687
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,599
right like this. But here's what's interesting. He was like,

688
00:42:04,679 --> 00:42:06,599
that shows he's not infallible. No, it just shows Peter

689
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,920
as he's wont to do gaffs. The pope can make mistakes.

690
00:42:11,639 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: Oh okay, so wait a minute. So Peter's failure to

691
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,880
preach the Gospel and to concede to the Judaizing heresy,

692
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:24,559
which Paul calls a heresy, Trent has reformatted and spun

693
00:42:24,679 --> 00:42:30,639
this as it's a gaff. Dude, he the popes make mistakes.

694
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,280
But Trent, what does Vatican wan? Which is what you're

695
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,719
trying to ultimately sell. You're not talking about Vatican One.

696
00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:39,840
You're doing a Mormon type of thing where you introduce

697
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,280
people to the easy, pragmatic stuff and then later on

698
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,039
down the road, five percent of the Roman Catholics actually

699
00:42:46,039 --> 00:42:48,199
go and read what Vatican one actually says, which is

700
00:42:48,199 --> 00:42:53,280
what you're actually selling to people. Okay, like the whole

701
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:58,559
you know, scientology, what's the what's the real the things

702
00:42:58,559 --> 00:43:01,400
that cling to you, that's the real doctrine scientologists, Right,

703
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,280
the real Mormon doctrine is the space cult. Well they

704
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,280
don't tell you that when they come to the door. Okay,

705
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,880
and he's not telling you that. No, actually you're having

706
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,760
to buy into Vatican one, which actually says that Rome

707
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:22,159
can't defect. The occupant of the sea then can't defect.

708
00:43:23,199 --> 00:43:27,440
But what is going on in Galatians Paul calls a

709
00:43:27,639 --> 00:43:33,880
defection from the gospel, which Trent spun as it's just

710
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:34,440
a gaff.

711
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 5: Did he just it's a little in he tripped over,

712
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,639
you know, if he fell over, he didn't really mean

713
00:43:41,679 --> 00:43:49,920
to do. It's it's a lie, dude, you're spinning. Have

714
00:43:50,039 --> 00:43:53,679
you actually read what Galatians says about this mistake? The

715
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:54,800
whole context of.

716
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,039
Speaker 1: Paul talking about Peter's mistake, He calls a departure from

717
00:43:59,079 --> 00:44:05,920
the gospel. That would mean Rome departed from the gospel,

718
00:44:07,159 --> 00:44:17,599
which would mean that it can one is wrong, stop lying, geem.

719
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: And we be talking about that one for a while.

720
00:44:19,519 --> 00:44:22,079
But it doesn't take away from his authority. In fact,

721
00:44:22,199 --> 00:44:24,360
what's interesting here the fact that Paul it.

722
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 1: Does take away from his authority because if he departs

723
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,840
from the gospel, Paul says, he's accursed. So do you

724
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,599
think that the head of your church can be accursed

725
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,679
outside of the church, but also the authoritative head? Notice

726
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,199
what he did the bait and switch. The whole system

727
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,679
is just the worship of authority.

728
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 3: That's it.

729
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:54,679
Speaker 1: Roman Catholicism is worship of authority, bear authority. Hence, you

730
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,559
can confect the Eucharist as a Roman Catholic priest. If

731
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,840
the day you get ord ed you become a Satanist,

732
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,559
literally for the rest of your life, you can still

733
00:45:05,599 --> 00:45:11,400
confect the eu Christ validly, efficaciously. You're a sinner, You're

734
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,599
going to hell, but you can still confect the This

735
00:45:15,679 --> 00:45:18,400
is so stupid. This whole system is so ridiculous and

736
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,559
so dumb that it literally takes at this point, I

737
00:45:21,639 --> 00:45:23,519
think crazy people to still believe this.

738
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:25,559
Speaker 3: Now.

739
00:45:25,559 --> 00:45:28,079
Speaker 1: I don't think Trent is crazy, but I think Trent

740
00:45:28,119 --> 00:45:32,440
has bills to pay, so there is not much incentive

741
00:45:32,679 --> 00:45:36,960
for Trent to It's going to be a rough road

742
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,480
for him to admit that this is all a bunch

743
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:47,440
of gibberish and he's wrong. But what do you really

744
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:55,039
care about what's true? Or getting a paycheck or having

745
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:01,320
how many subscribers does he have? Two word two hundred

746
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:01,920
and seventy k.

747
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,519
Speaker 3: Say what made is? Say what made is?

748
00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:12,599
Speaker 1: I'll get a special indulgence if I hit three hundred

749
00:46:12,639 --> 00:46:15,480
years and subscribe it Galatians.

750
00:46:16,119 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 2: What he's trying to show people is not he is

751
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,119
not beholden to human authority. Over and over again he says,

752
00:46:21,159 --> 00:46:23,199
I didn't get the Gospel as some mere human tradition.

753
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,079
I got it from God. I got the Gospel. Now

754
00:46:26,119 --> 00:46:28,679
I confirmed it. I went to Peter. In Galatians one

755
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,920
nineteen it says that Paul went to Peter and Jerusalem

756
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,559
to do a his store ray si which we get

757
00:46:34,559 --> 00:46:37,599
what word from history? That's right, history side and Greek

758
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,199
is a fact finding mission. He went to confirm it.

759
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,599
But he's not beholden to human authorities as the ultimate

760
00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:46,039
source of his revelation, so they don't bully him around.

761
00:46:46,519 --> 00:46:48,719
Paul will stand for the truth. And he'll even stand

762
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:49,760
up to Peter.

763
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: Oh really sound like Vatican one, Trent.

764
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 2: Now why he may? Why does he make note of Peter?

765
00:46:56,679 --> 00:46:59,320
Because Peter has the most authority, right, I will even

766
00:46:59,599 --> 00:47:00,679
oppose Peter.

767
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: So mouthpiece authority. None of that equates to Vatican one. Again,

768
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,000
all non sequitors. The whole thing is bait and switch,

769
00:47:09,679 --> 00:47:13,079
just telling you that because there is this place, because

770
00:47:13,199 --> 00:47:17,800
Rome has this pre eminence, that the Roman, therefore Roman

771
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,760
Catholic doctions are all true, it doesn't follow. In other words,

772
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,880
there's an Orthodox read and maybe the Orthodox reading is wrong, right,

773
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,880
But my point is that there's an Orthodox reading of

774
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:34,119
all of this stuff, and it's ignored because the idea

775
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:38,079
is just that, look at all these quote minds, look

776
00:47:38,079 --> 00:47:40,000
at my reading of Galatians and all this stuff, and

777
00:47:40,039 --> 00:47:43,400
therefore Vatican one. That's essentially what he's saying, even though

778
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,360
he's not saying that or making any reference to Vatican One,

779
00:47:47,159 --> 00:47:50,360
but he knows that Vatican one is the council about

780
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:51,480
the papacy.

781
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 2: When he's wrong, because he's not right about everything, even

782
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,480
though he is. He has the most authority here in

783
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:58,320
the children.

784
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: Oh what's Paul actually saying. Peter's wrong about though, right,

785
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:08,159
So notice he keeps he brushes past this devastating text

786
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,880
to the papacy, to Vatican One, he brushes past all that. Well,

787
00:48:12,119 --> 00:48:17,159
he's not always right. I don't know the gospel. This

788
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:21,519
is about the gospel. The whole context is Peter saying

789
00:48:21,559 --> 00:48:23,480
that if you went at the sum me, Paul saying that,

790
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,719
if you went with Peter's error, you're a cursed that's

791
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:31,039
a defection from the faith. Vatican One says Rome can't defect.

792
00:48:31,639 --> 00:48:36,039
So his own proof text from this passage disprove Vatican

793
00:48:36,079 --> 00:48:40,039
One because it's about defecting from the Gospel. Have you regulations? Won?

794
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,760
He says, if you depart from the Gospel that I preached,

795
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:48,639
you're a cursed And his example was Peter. Now Peter

796
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:56,880
repented because Paul rebuked him. So the whole point of

797
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:01,639
this text of Paul is that even Peter can be

798
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:08,760
rebuked if he errs. This is all spun to be

799
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:13,639
the opposite in their exegesis to be that Paul went

800
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,599
to Peter to see if he was correct, and Paul

801
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,719
found out, Oh oops, Peter made a gaff. He just

802
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,400
kind of messed up. Is that what he says? No,

803
00:49:24,559 --> 00:49:29,039
he says that he departed from the Gospel. That equates

804
00:49:29,079 --> 00:49:31,800
to defecting from the faith. That is the very thing

805
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:37,960
that Vatican one says Rome can never do. Peter is Rome.

806
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,679
Their exegesis proves he departed.

807
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 3: From the faith in Galatians.

808
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 1: It's like, did they even read the text or did

809
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,480
he just read quote minds from other Roman Catholic apologists

810
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,880
or did he actually even read Galatians? Is he just

811
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,760
repeating Dahlgreen and Hesse's book.

812
00:49:58,119 --> 00:50:00,599
Speaker 2: Church, And for me, historically, when you look at the

813
00:50:00,599 --> 00:50:05,519
writings of Ignatius of Antioch, the Letter of Clement, the

814
00:50:05,559 --> 00:50:09,159
writings of Saint Aeron, as going forward, even among Eastern

815
00:50:09,519 --> 00:50:12,360
fathers like Maximus the Confessor, I see a very clear

816
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:17,000
historical trajectory that the apostolic orders are to continue, this

817
00:50:17,039 --> 00:50:20,920
to be apostolic succession, but that one of the apostles

818
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:22,679
had authority, special authority.

819
00:50:22,599 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: So they all have authority. Matthew eighteen has the exact

820
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,360
same promises to the College of Apostles that Peter has.

821
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,960
In the Roman Catholic system. What are the things that

822
00:50:32,159 --> 00:50:36,679
bishops have? They have the office of the Keys, the

823
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:41,000
preaching of the Gospel, the administration of sacraments, jurisdiction. Okay,

824
00:50:41,039 --> 00:50:43,920
this is what a bishop has in the Roman Catholic

825
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:51,239
system that's only had in commune with Rome. Right, So

826
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:57,639
what is it exactly that Peter has that the others

827
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:05,840
don't have? In the Gospels? Nothing, There's nothing, because the

828
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,719
very things that they list as the office the exercise

829
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:14,159
of the Keys, is the very thing that's given to

830
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,760
and said to all of them. So the only thing

831
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:23,320
that Peter is given here is Premissy and being first

832
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,719
among equals, that is the orthodox reading of all of this.

833
00:51:28,119 --> 00:51:32,320
First among equals. No problem with that, but also no

834
00:51:32,519 --> 00:51:36,599
problem in rebuking the first among equals in Galatians one

835
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,760
when he departs from the Gospel, which he can clearly

836
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:44,920
do because Peter did that, which disproves Vatican one right there.

837
00:51:46,199 --> 00:51:50,119
Because Vatican one says Rome can never depart from the faith. Period,

838
00:51:51,559 --> 00:51:53,000
then they introduce.

839
00:51:52,639 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 6: Oh, but he can depart as an individual, but not

840
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:55,920
as the official.

841
00:51:55,559 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 3: Teacher that you know.

842
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,119
Speaker 1: Actually that's not the case because Vatican One does not

843
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,599
make the distinction between the individual occupant of the sea

844
00:52:05,639 --> 00:52:08,840
and the official papacy speaking from the voice of God,

845
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,440
mouth of Peter. Blah blah blah. Yeah, I know there's

846
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:16,159
ex cathedral, Okay, but that is infallibility. I'm talking about

847
00:52:16,199 --> 00:52:21,760
indeffectibility where we are told that the Roman Sea and

848
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:25,280
its occupant, Okay, the Roman Sea is not a Nestorian

849
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:29,599
ideal papal thing. It's a thing that has living successors

850
00:52:29,599 --> 00:52:31,519
in it. According to Vatican One, until the end of

851
00:52:31,519 --> 00:52:38,280
the world, those living successors cannot defect from the faith. So,

852
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,119
citing Robert Bellerman and all this stuff prior to Vatican

853
00:52:41,119 --> 00:52:47,800
One doesn't matter anymore. You can't go reverse retrogate grade

854
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,280
and bring up all things in the Roman Catholic system

855
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,559
that are already settled Vatican One. Settle these issues in

856
00:52:55,679 --> 00:52:59,599
Vatican One as clear as day. The Roman Sea cannot defect.

857
00:53:00,039 --> 00:53:02,679
So you can cite Lasilette, you can cite all this

858
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,920
nonsense which is prior to Vatican One, which doesn't apply anymore.

859
00:53:08,599 --> 00:53:13,119
According to Vatican one, elected successors of the See of

860
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:20,199
Rome cannot depart from the faith because the terrorism is

861
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,559
given to the living successors in that seat. They might

862
00:53:23,599 --> 00:53:26,840
be individual sinners, but they can't depart from the faith.

863
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:34,800
They can't become apostates and heretics. So it's irrelevant what

864
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,480
Robert Bellman speculated on and thought about centuries before Vatican One.

865
00:53:38,519 --> 00:53:39,599
It doesn't matter anymore.

866
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 2: Tho, it's not as a tyrant, not as someone who

867
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,880
can boss everyone else around, as like a dictator, but

868
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,639
as someone to provide leadership to the oit.

869
00:53:47,679 --> 00:53:50,159
Speaker 1: He's not somebody who can boss everybody around as a dictator.

870
00:53:50,039 --> 00:53:53,199
Or what about the medieval popes who would excommunicate anybody

871
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:57,199
who wouldn't be conscripted to fight in their wars. What

872
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:01,840
about the Avignon popes to erect the giant palaces in France,

873
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,239
the Sea of Peter in France, which they believe they

874
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,760
believe the See of Peter was translated to France.

875
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 2: Others to provide a cohesive whole. And there's an element

876
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,440
of this in the Gospel of Luke. If you remember,

877
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,239
the apostles are debating amongst each other, and they say,

878
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,559
go to Jesus and say who's the greatest. And now

879
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,639
some Protestants will say, well, Jesus should have said Peter

880
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,159
he's the pope, or the apostles should have known Peter

881
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,239
is the pope. Who's the greatest among us? But notice

882
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,320
what Jesus does not say. He doesn't say there is

883
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:35,880
no greatest your equals. He says, the greatest among you

884
00:54:36,559 --> 00:54:38,239
shall be a servant to the others.

885
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, argument from silence, which is not a good argument.

886
00:54:42,599 --> 00:54:42,760
Speaker 3: Right.

887
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:46,039
Speaker 1: Well, he doesn't say that there's not a greatest. Oh, okay,

888
00:54:46,079 --> 00:54:47,920
so I guess we can still throw papacy in there,

889
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:52,119
right He says the least among you is the greatest.

890
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,880
Does the history of the papacy is it characterized by

891
00:54:57,559 --> 00:55:01,599
history of humility and being the least or is it

892
00:55:01,679 --> 00:55:06,559
characterized by a worldly institution that has sought worldly geopolitical

893
00:55:06,599 --> 00:55:12,599
power at every possible instance and in every conceivable way,

894
00:55:13,679 --> 00:55:21,840
with a gigantic banking empire and endless intrigue and espionage

895
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,719
and machinations over the centuries. Does that really does that

896
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:27,679
sound like the least among you? Is that? So that's

897
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:32,719
what Jesus was talking about, right, Borgia Popes, right incest orgies.

898
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:34,880
Is that what Jesus is talking about, is that the

899
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:35,760
least among us?

900
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,679
Speaker 6: Now again he's gonna say, well, you're falling into the

901
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:42,360
idea that sinners that you lose an office from Sin. No, no,

902
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,599
I'm not talking about losing an office from Sin. I'm

903
00:55:44,599 --> 00:55:48,800
talking about the total opposite of what you just characterize,

904
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:52,920
supposedly the office of Peter az Pope's saying that I

905
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,639
am above every emperor in the world. I depose all

906
00:55:56,639 --> 00:56:00,480
the emperors in the world. I will conscript entire armies

907
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,159
to fight in battles for me. And if you don't,

908
00:56:03,679 --> 00:56:05,119
who in their right mind.

909
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: Thinks that that's what Jesus had in mind? Now in

910
00:56:07,519 --> 00:56:10,880
their view, they have to say that that's what they think. Jesus, Yeah,

911
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:12,880
that's what Jesus had in mind. That's why these tribes

912
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:21,079
are so crazy. Right, So in other words, Jesus was

913
00:56:21,119 --> 00:56:25,719
actually saying that whoever builds the prettiest whorehouse next to

914
00:56:26,039 --> 00:56:32,760
the Vatican, that's the greatest among you, right, whoever employs

915
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:37,280
the least of the horrors throughout Italy is the greatest

916
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:37,760
among you.

917
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,599
Speaker 2: And then immediately after that, which we lose because I

918
00:56:42,679 --> 00:56:44,559
want to say, it's Luke twenty two to Luke twenty three.

919
00:56:45,119 --> 00:56:47,639
But that section in Luke it's not a chapter break,

920
00:56:47,639 --> 00:56:49,840
it's a heading break because it's in the same chapter,

921
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,119
but we usually add a heading in there to show

922
00:56:52,159 --> 00:56:54,440
it's a different, you know, different thing that's being talked about.

923
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,239
It goes to where Jesus says to Simon Simon Simon

924
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:01,800
Satan has wants to sift you like wheat you all

925
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,360
is the plural in the Greek. He wants to sift

926
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,760
all of you, y'all, but I have prayed for you

927
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:12,719
singular for your faith. And then he tells him to

928
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:16,039
go and strengthen his brethren. So that so what's interesting

929
00:57:16,079 --> 00:57:20,159
here is that section takes place immediately after the greatest

930
00:57:20,239 --> 00:57:21,719
Who is the greatest among us?

931
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:25,719
Speaker 1: I was hoping I could find the Borgia section where

932
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,400
he's sneaking over to the whorehouse. I think it's this

933
00:57:31,159 --> 00:57:33,320
is this the least among you? I think this is it?

934
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:33,639
Speaker 3: Right?

935
00:57:36,599 --> 00:57:38,159
Speaker 1: If you not watch the Borges, by the way, I

936
00:57:38,239 --> 00:57:42,239
highly recommend it, because, I mean, let's get into the

937
00:57:42,239 --> 00:57:47,400
reality of the medieval papacy. Okay. My argument is not

938
00:57:47,559 --> 00:57:53,920
that the Orthodox have no, you know, corrupt bishops. That's

939
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,760
not my argument. This is not what I'm looking for.

940
00:57:57,159 --> 00:58:01,880
I think that is the mistress that he has. There's

941
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:06,760
this funny scene where Jeremy Irons is like sneaking through

942
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:11,079
the tunnels over to the whorehouse. That's what I was

943
00:58:11,119 --> 00:58:13,239
trying to find, but I can't find it anyway. Is

944
00:58:13,239 --> 00:58:16,440
that what characterizes the humility of this office? Now he's

945
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:17,440
gonna say, you just.

946
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 7: Keep appealing to the moral feelings, and there were Orthodox

947
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,480
bishops who were moral feelers, But you just made the

948
00:58:23,599 --> 00:58:28,960
argument that the office will be first because of its

949
00:58:29,039 --> 00:58:30,519
recognizable humility.

950
00:58:31,719 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: And who can honestly with a straight face say this

951
00:58:35,159 --> 00:58:39,119
about the history of the papacy, especially the Borgia era.

952
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:44,480
I mean, really, is it really characterized by the humility

953
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:49,440
that would make them first among equals or first among

954
00:58:49,679 --> 00:58:50,320
non equals.

955
00:58:50,639 --> 00:58:53,199
Speaker 2: Well, the greatest shall be a servant. And in fact,

956
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:55,880
since the early Church, one of the titles of the

957
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:59,760
papacy is the servant of the servants of God agreed.

958
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:01,639
And so i'd recommend for especially if I have anyst

959
00:59:01,719 --> 00:59:04,599
orthodox listeners or others who might struggle with the papacy,

960
00:59:04,599 --> 00:59:07,920
I would recommend Pope. Saint John Ball the second wrote

961
00:59:08,239 --> 00:59:11,679
encyclical on this called ut unum sint it's u t

962
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,880
U n U m s I n t stuh that

963
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,199
talks about how the papacy can provide unity in the church,

964
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:24,000
but without uh stamping out legitimate diversity and liturgy and

965
00:59:24,159 --> 00:59:25,400
other things like that. And that's the thing that's a

966
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,519
painful lesson we had to learn in church history. Yeah,

967
00:59:27,559 --> 00:59:29,199
I mean you have people saying like you can't.

968
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,599
Speaker 1: What about castwriting the young boys to be the pope's

969
00:59:32,599 --> 00:59:35,039
official singers? Is that is that?

970
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 2: Like?

971
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:37,719
Speaker 1: Is that a humble, humble act? Well, I guess it's

972
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:41,039
it's humility to get rid of balls and testically is right,

973
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,599
So I guess that is a great action of humility.

974
00:59:43,719 --> 00:59:46,159
So I look up the watch the Borges. If you've

975
00:59:46,199 --> 01:00:01,159
never seen this, it's it's loosely kind of based on

976
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:03,960
you know, reality, So if you've not watched the Borgias,

977
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:06,199
it's really good. It gets into a lot of the intrigues,

978
01:00:06,239 --> 01:00:11,519
and it really dispels a lot of this propaganda about

979
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:18,119
the Vatican as this you know, institution of benevolence and humility.

980
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,880
I mean, this is the reality what was going on

981
01:00:21,079 --> 01:00:26,199
for centuries. So but I can't find the scene where

982
01:00:26,199 --> 01:00:29,199
he's sneaking across in the tunnels to his to his

983
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:31,440
to his hose over there.

984
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 2: You know, you's leven bread or you can't do this

985
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:38,559
in your liturgy. No, God has allowed a diversity of

986
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:41,199
ways to be able to worship Him that each communicate

987
01:00:41,239 --> 01:00:44,840
different truths, all while being united around very core truths

988
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:45,880
that have been revealed.

989
01:00:45,559 --> 01:00:48,639
Speaker 1: To us anyway, So that really that was really weak.

990
01:00:48,679 --> 01:00:50,199
I mean that was just kind of a normy kind

991
01:00:50,199 --> 01:00:52,480
of thing for the average viewer.