WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.880 --> 00:00:16.480 Hello everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy. Today is Monday, 2 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:19.719 August tenth, twenty twenty six, and I'm the host of 3 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:23.239 the show Doctor Kara Santa Maria, and I am back 4 00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:28.760 from a trip to Australia and New Zealand where I 5 00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:35.000 had so so much fun traveling with my sgu cohort Steve, 6 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:39.439 Bob and Jay, as well as Angela Jones, Roy and 7 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:43.560 Brian Weckt, as well as my partner and the partners 8 00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:47.439 and family of some of my colleagues. It was a 9 00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:51.799 huge group and we managed to be drama free, although 10 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:54.359 a bunch of us got sick, which I guess is 11 00:00:54.359 --> 00:00:57.240 to be expected when you're traveling to the Southern Hemisphere 12 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:01.359 so the winter in some time, it's a drastic shift, 13 00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:04.159 and of course there are all of those fun viruses 14 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:08.640 that are floating around during the season. But I'm back 15 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:13.319 now and somewhat over the jet lag, and gosh, I 16 00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:16.120 just had so much fun, both at the Australian Skeptics 17 00:01:16.120 --> 00:01:19.200 meeting where we did not a con, as well as 18 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:21.959 the meeting of the New Zealand Skeptics and all of 19 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:25.159 the cool stuff that we did in between. I visited 20 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:33.159 fabulous Maudi spa in rohod Arua on the North Island 21 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:37.159 of New Zealand. We went to Hobbiton which was interesting, 22 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:42.000 very very cool. We spent some time in Sydney in 23 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:45.640 Australia and also in christ Church in New Zealand for 24 00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:49.879 the conferences, and went to the Zoo and Wellington on 25 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:52.920 the North Island. Just so much fun and I got 26 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:55.239 to meet some of you, which is awesome, awesome, awesome. 27 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:58.319 So before we get into this week's episode, as always, 28 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:00.239 I want to thank those of you who make Talk 29 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:05.359 Nerdy possible. If you're interested in pledging your support still 30 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:07.920 for the time being on an episodic basis, all you've 31 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:10.919 got to do is visit patreon dot com slash talk 32 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:15.199 Nerdy to learn more. This week's top patrons include Chuck Blell, 33 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:20.080 David J. E. Smith, Daniel Lang, Will DeFraine, David Compton, 34 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:25.199 Brian Holden, Gabo Jay l Rika Hagman and wouldn't you 35 00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:30.319 know it, Pascale Galotti. Pascali Galotti, I got to meet 36 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:34.360 you in person. You're freaking awesome. That was so much fun. 37 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:36.560 I'm so glad that we got to spend a little 38 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:38.759 bit of quality time. Wish it had been more. I 39 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:40.879 got to learn how to say your name correctly. Gosh, 40 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:43.520 I hope I'm still not butchering it. I've said Galotti 41 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:47.960 for years. Pascali Galotti, you are awesome. 42 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:48.280 Thank you. 43 00:02:48.439 --> 00:02:53.280 Thank you as well as Mary Neiva, Rica Maharaj, Joe Wilkinson, 44 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:56.120 and so many more of you. Thank you all so 45 00:02:56.280 --> 00:02:59.400 much from the bottom of my heart. All right, let's 46 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:01.599 get into thank you it. This week I had the 47 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:07.439 opportunity to chat with ROBERTA Quak. She is a science writer. 48 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:11.280 She's written for a ton of different outlets, from The 49 00:03:11.319 --> 00:03:14.039 New York Times to The New Yorker to New Scientist 50 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:18.599 audubonn She has a fellowship from the Night Science Journalism 51 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:23.000 Program at MIT, a grant from the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. 52 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:27.439 She's won awards from Triple As, the American Geophysical Union, 53 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:31.919 and she worked in a science lab before she became 54 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:35.800 a science journalist and is very, very interested in the 55 00:03:35.879 --> 00:03:39.439 scientific process. So she has a new book out called 56 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:45.759 Lost in Curiosity Field Notes from Scientists' Adventures into the Unknown. So, 57 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:52.280 without any further ado, here she is Roberta Quack. Well, Roberta, 58 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:54.199 thank you so much for joining me today. 59 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:56.759 I'm excited to be here. Thanks so much for having 60 00:03:56.759 --> 00:03:58.159 me on me too. 61 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:01.240 So we're gonna be talking about your new book, Lost 62 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:06.800 in Curiosity, field notes from Scientists' Adventures into the Unknown. 63 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:11.240 But before we get into the actual kind of content 64 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:14.520 of the book, I'd love to take some time just 65 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:16.519 to get to know you a little bit more. And 66 00:04:16.839 --> 00:04:21.000 you're positioning to or within the book. So you're a 67 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:25.800 science writer, but before you became a science journalist, you 68 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:30.480 worked in the sciences. It's it's always interesting to me 69 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:32.199 when I talk to folks who are sort of on 70 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:37.519 that line between doing science and writing about science, or 71 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:41.079 maybe they've spent a whole career as a science communicator 72 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:44.160 or a science journalist. Some people it seems like kind 73 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:47.360 of go through the j school route and then they 74 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:51.160 learn the beat while they're doing the work. And then 75 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:53.319 other folks I do notice there's like a subset of 76 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:57.839 science writers who were scientists, like they were trained in 77 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:00.879 the sciences and then decided, you know what I want 78 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:02.399 to I want to write about this. I think that's 79 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:05.639 that's more my bag. Would you consider yourself in that camp? 80 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:09.720 Yes, I'm in the second camp, though I would say 81 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:13.800 I'm maybe only partly trained in the sciences because I 82 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:17.639 did my undergrad in biology, and I did sort of, 83 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:20.639 you know, bounce around between a few labs for you know, 84 00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:24.680 summer internships. And I did work after graduation in a 85 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:29.439 genetics lab as you mentioned. But I didn't do I 86 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:33.040 didn't go through like the ordeal of a PhD as 87 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:35.639 a lot of my fellow science writers have, where they 88 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:38.360 get part way through their pg D and then they're like, oh, 89 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:40.279 my gosh, I can't do this. I don't want to 90 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:43.120 be a scientists for the rest of my life. So 91 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:46.279 luckily I figured that out before I went into a 92 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:50.920 PhD program. I had kind of a weird what happened 93 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:54.199 I'm thinking back. So I did my undergrad in biology. 94 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:57.759 I actually worked in software engineering for a while. I 95 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:00.439 was living in Silicon Valley, so everyone was doing that. 96 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:04.399 And then so the genetics lab work. I was actually 97 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:06.959 a software engineer. I wasn't like doing things with test 98 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:08.360 tubes or pipets or anything. 99 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:09.319 Uh. 100 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:16.519 And then from there I switched into creative writing, fiction writing, 101 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:20.920 and then took a left turn again into science journalism. 102 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:22.639 So that's how I ended up where I am now. 103 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:27.240 Oh interesting, So you you know, you obviously chose to 104 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:31.879 major in biology because there because it was interesting to you, 105 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:34.560 and it, you know, kept your attention long enough to 106 00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:38.279 get to get through your undergrad But then you didn't 107 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:42.399 initially have the intention of becoming a science writer. 108 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:44.920 You mean when I was an undergrad. 109 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:47.000 Yeah, I mean, I don't sort as you were figuring 110 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:48.800 out what you wanted to do with your life. 111 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:52.360 Yes, I don't think I really knew it was even 112 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:54.639 an option back then, And I hear that from a 113 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:57.399 lot of science writers that we we didn't even realize 114 00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:00.839 that was something people did as their or it's just 115 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:03.480 not it's not like a it's just not a common 116 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:06.519 option that comes to mind. So, you know, the options 117 00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:08.560 seemed like I could try to go to med school, 118 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:11.680 I could try to go to grad school, and I 119 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:13.800 kind of didn't want to do either of those things. 120 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:17.600 But since so many people were doing computer scientists was 121 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:20.920 like early what two thousands in the Bay areas, so 122 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:23.000 that's all that anyone was thinking about. This must have 123 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:25.560 been like right before the dot com bust or something 124 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:29.480 and so or boom boom and then bust. But yeah, 125 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:33.879 so I I instead kind of went to a bionformatics 126 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:37.240 company where I was doing, you know, programming, and that's 127 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:38.399 how I ended up on that path. 128 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:44.439 It's very cool. And so you know, throughout your career, then, 129 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:48.399 how have you twisted and turned? Like have you kind 130 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:51.720 of stayed the course? Have you had specific beats within science? 131 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:54.720 Do you tend to you know, write more long form, 132 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:57.680 do you tend to write more kind of fast coverage, 133 00:07:57.720 --> 00:07:59.160 like how what has been your approach? 134 00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:02.600 Yeah, I mean, I think most science writers when they're 135 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:06.519 starting out, we do news articles because you know, they're shorter, 136 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:08.800 they're easier to manage. You know, it's a few interviews, 137 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:11.680 you get it done within a day or a few days. 138 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:14.680 So most of us will cut our teeth doing that. 139 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.000 And then you know, as time went on, I started 140 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:19.879 to get more ambitious, like I wanted to do more 141 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:23.160 narrative features. And I think that was partly two from 142 00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:26.199 that training that I had in fiction writing for the 143 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:29.680 MFA program. You know, you learn all these tools of 144 00:08:29.680 --> 00:08:32.840 the trade, these you know, craft techniques for you know, 145 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:37.320 creating scenes and dialogue and character and setting and all that, 146 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:39.639 and so I wanted to put some of that to 147 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:43.840 use in my science writing too. So I did start 148 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:46.399 to try to pitch and write more features at that 149 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:51.559 point and then yeah, and then I guess after maybe 150 00:08:51.879 --> 00:08:55.720 decade or so, is when I started thinking about like 151 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:58.320 going to the book route and taking on an even 152 00:08:58.440 --> 00:08:59.759 bigger project. 153 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:06.120 Narratively speaking, it's a I think it's like super super scary. 154 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:08.799 I have not taken the plunge. I have you know, 155 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:15.039 received let's say, encouragement to do so, and it just 156 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:22.720 it's such a daunting task to me to sit down, conceptualize, pitch, edit, 157 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:24.919 right and edit and right and edit and right and 158 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:28.840 edit a full length book. So I'm curious, how did 159 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:32.519 you even begin that process? How did you even choose 160 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:33.639 what you wanted to write about? 161 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:37.679 Yeah, I mean, I guess if we're talking about the 162 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:40.360 idea for this book and how that started, I mean 163 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:45.480 that actually started when I was in that MFA program 164 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:49.600 in fiction writing. So I was taking an essay writing 165 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:52.639 class and I needed a topic for an essay assignment, 166 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:56.840 and I happened to be friends with this evolutionary biologist Ben, 167 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:59.919 who was doing his PhD program at the same university, 168 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:04.279 and he was studying sunflower genetics, and so I thought, well, 169 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:06.559 it would be fun to you know, follow Ben around 170 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:11.320 on his experiments and write a narrative essay about his research. 171 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:17.039 So I followed him on a twenty hour experiment where 172 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:20.639 we were taking leaf samples every few hours, and we 173 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:23.240 started at seven am, we ended at three am the 174 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.960 following morning, and there were basically like kind of a 175 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:29.879 series of unfortunate events, which you know, the upshot was 176 00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:32.519 that Ben decided at the end at three am that 177 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:35.720 he would probably just have to redo the entire experiment no, 178 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:41.519 which I'm guessing some scientists in your audience will identify. 179 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:48.240 And so that I mean that that just stayed with 180 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:51.559 me because you know, it just brought home his his dedication, 181 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:54.240 his perseverance, like to him, but wasn't even a big deal, like, 182 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:55.759 oh yeah, of course, I'll just do it all again. 183 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:00.399 And so I was keeping that in the back of 184 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:02.559 my mind that you know, I was interested in this 185 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:06.200 idea of the scientific process and all the labor that 186 00:11:06.279 --> 00:11:10.200 happens behind the scenes, all the you know, obstacles and 187 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:13.559 challenges and the human struggle that happens behind the scenes 188 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:17.600 before you get to that result. So that was percolating 189 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.559 for a long time, and then it was maybe after 190 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:23.200 like ten or twelve years later that I thought I 191 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:26.559 could write a book where I'd follow a different research 192 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:29.759 project from a different field of science in each chapter. 193 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:35.519 So we'd have like astronomy, geology, evolutionary biology, whatever, and 194 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:38.799 then each chapter would follow that person or that teen's 195 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:41.399 journey through their research question. 196 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:45.120 I love that, so, you know, I've it's interesting because 197 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:46.759 I feel like I've had a few folks on the 198 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:52.000 show before who were more sort of like process oriented, right, 199 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:54.720 really asking the questions that I find the most interesting, 200 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:56.360 which is not so much what do we know? But 201 00:11:56.440 --> 00:11:59.360 like how how do we know what we know? And 202 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:01.200 how do we know what we don't know? And what 203 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:03.039 are all the twists and turns that come along in 204 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:05.600 the path. But I feel like most of the time 205 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:09.080 when we discuss that sort of process of science, it's 206 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:13.440 from like a historian perspective. So maybe somebody will have 207 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:18.759 written a book about a particular scientist or a particular discovery, 208 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:22.440 and they'll have, you know, dug deep into the archives 209 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:24.320 to tell the real story of it, and not like 210 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:27.399 the simplified loan genius story that we often hear. But 211 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:30.120 I love that your approach is more contemporary. It's kind 212 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:32.720 of like what is what are how are these people 213 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:33.080 doing this? 214 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:36.799 Now, yeah, I think that's true that a lot of it. 215 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:39.639 You'll find a lot of those stories in you know, 216 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:43.000 history books, and those stories are fascinating too, right, like 217 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:47.120 going back and hearing the twist and turns that you know, 218 00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:49.639 the scientist went through to get to this big discovery. 219 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:53.159 And I think the advantage of advantage of doing a 220 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:56.200 contemporary approach is that, I mean I get to see 221 00:12:56.200 --> 00:12:59.000 it happening in real time, like in front of my eyes, right, 222 00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:02.960 Like I get to be in the field with the scientists, 223 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:06.519 you know, in Greenland when they're trying to study this glacier, 224 00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:10.559 or I get to I mean sometimes it's remote, like 225 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:13.799 one scientist was trying to study these frogs in Borneo, 226 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:15.559 and even though I wasn't there with her, I was 227 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:18.279 like getting her updates and we were, you know, communicating 228 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:21.000 a lot about all the obstacles that she was coming 229 00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:23.440 up against. So I think just getting to see it 230 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:25.840 unfold in real time, and we can't really do that 231 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:28.679 with historical stories, right You're trying to reconstruct things from 232 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:32.720 documents or letters or something. But if you can just 233 00:13:32.840 --> 00:13:34.559 be there and the thick of it with them, that's 234 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:37.480 great because you can construct scenes from that, and I 235 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:40.039 think that's part of what can help draw readers in 236 00:13:40.120 --> 00:13:42.320 is to feel like they're really there with the scientists. 237 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:48.840 Yeah, you know, It's it's different now too, because science 238 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:51.840 is I mean, I feel like the I guess the 239 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:59.120 philosophy of science has maybe been clarified, and there have 240 00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:03.320 been some adjustments, some updates, you know, since kind of 241 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:10.240 early scientific thought. But ultimately the biggest leap, especially even 242 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:13.120 like within the last five, ten twenty years, has been 243 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:17.519 the technology, the advancements that scientists use, right, Like, Okay, 244 00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:19.960 I want to answer this question or I'm really interested 245 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:25.759 in interrogating this unknown and I don't know how to 246 00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:28.000 do it. So I'm going to try and develop a tool, 247 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:30.120 and then now that I have this tool, I can 248 00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:32.960 I can dig a little bit deeper. Do you find 249 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:36.120 that sometimes when you are kind of embedded with scientists 250 00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:39.440 and you're working with them, that it's easy to get 251 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:43.039 caught up in the technology, the how all of this 252 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:45.440 stuff happens because it's so sophisticated. 253 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:50.679 Now, Yeah, I mean, I guess it was sometimes it 254 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:53.919 was tricky to figure out, Okay, how deep into the 255 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:56.519 weeds are we going to go on the methodology? Right? 256 00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:00.440 Because in some sense. I mean, that's where the story 257 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:04.120 is happening, right'. It's in the weeds where they're encountering 258 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:08.480 these obstacles. But you also don't want readers to just 259 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.879 get so lost in the details that we're losing the 260 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:15.200 bigger narrative. Like so, for example, one chapter is about 261 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:19.879 astronomers who are trying to detect the first convincing evidence 262 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:22.879 of an exo moon, so a moon circling a planet 263 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:27.039 outside our Solar system, And this is incredibly difficult to 264 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:30.360 two because these planets are very far away, these moons 265 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:33.320 are often very tiny, they're going to be tiny compared 266 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:37.399 to their planets, and there's so many other things that 267 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:40.200 can trick you into thinking that you have found a 268 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:43.840 signal of a moon when it's actually something else. And 269 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:47.120 so there is a lot of sort of technological and 270 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:51.639 methodological detail that goes into, you know, trying to separate 271 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:54.720 the signal from the noise and trying to make sure 272 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:57.279 like is this real, is this just kind of a mirage? 273 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:00.320 Are we just seeing something that we want to see? 274 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:06.080 And so I had to sort of make some decisions 275 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:10.879 about when to go into that in great detail and 276 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:12.720 whether to keep it higher level. 277 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:16.320 Right, right, And I feel like that's probably always a 278 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:22.039 science journalist or science writer's struggle among many, But it's 279 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:25.000 sort of at what level of depth? Because you can 280 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:29.399 always go deeper, you can always get more technical, you 281 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:32.559 can always get stuck more in the weeds, and you 282 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:34.679 can always back off and speak about things in a 283 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:37.320 much broader, much more general, much more kind of almost 284 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:45.039 like social or humanistic way. And there's so much latitude there. 285 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.559 And I find that different different science writers really do 286 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:53.559 approach those questions differently, and it makes for you know, 287 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:55.759 that's why there are so many different stories about even 288 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:56.399 the same thing. 289 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:01.759 Yeah, And I feel like, I mean, if there is 290 00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:05.400 going to be some level of technical detail, it does 291 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:08.519 have to be sort of balanced out or that there 292 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:10.839 has to be moments in the book where I zoom 293 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:13.519 out to those bigger questions so it doesn't just feel 294 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:16.880 like we're talking about like software programs or something, right, Like, 295 00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:20.119 there has to be like a bigger picture why are 296 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:22.559 we doing this? Like why are they so fascinated by this? 297 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:24.759 Like and you know, with the Exo Moon story, it's 298 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:28.599 really about this. It's this, it's this spirit of discovery 299 00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:31.799 of exploration, you know, finding things that we haven't found before, 300 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:34.279 being the first to find like the first human to 301 00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:37.960 ever see something for the first time, and it raises 302 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:42.000 these questions of objectivity and how you can whether you 303 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:44.519 can trust what you're seeing, or whether you're seeing something 304 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:47.400 that you that you are hoping so hard is there 305 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:50.920 that you're almost kind of like willing it into existence? 306 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:53.960 So I think there has to be that zooming in 307 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:55.839 on the detail, but then also zooming out to those 308 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:56.680 big questions. 309 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:00.960 Yeah, and there's there's this whole other leg isn't there 310 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:03.200 of sort of you know, it's one thing if we 311 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:06.799 are turning our instruments and our eyes and our ears 312 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:11.720 and our senses to the cosmos and we are trying 313 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:16.200 to describe or understand something that either has has not 314 00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:20.799 been described or understood or requires clarification. And it's another 315 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:23.799 thing if we're doing that, you know, towards our own 316 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:27.240 home planet, towards our backyard, towards our oceans, towards you know, 317 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:31.400 different ecosystems. There's there's this other layer, I think of 318 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:35.799 humility that's required with the sciences that we haven't always 319 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:39.759 historically had. I was just saying this to my partner 320 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:44.279 yesterday I got like a news alert because I get 321 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:48.960 those often about a new monkey species, and it was 322 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:50.200 literally I saw that too. 323 00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:52.039 I didn't yeah, yeah, find it, but I was like, oh, 324 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:52.599 what what's that? 325 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:55.839 Yeah, I mean, and it looked bizarre and I was like, oh, 326 00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:58.000 but but I just hated how the headline. All the 327 00:18:58.039 --> 00:19:02.960 headlines I saw were like new new species, new species discovered, 328 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:05.440 and it's over and over, this thing is new, And 329 00:19:05.480 --> 00:19:07.599 then in the lead, like the very next line, it 330 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:10.319 would say something like known to locals as and it 331 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:13.920 had a name, and I'm like, it's not new, like 332 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:18.400 it's just new to science, like to Western science. It's 333 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:23.559 newly described by West right right. There's this really interesting, 334 00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:32.000 I think layer to conversations about exploration, conversations about you know, 335 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:36.279 the beauty I think, and the humanity of being curious 336 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:40.680 and of setting out to answer questions where I think 337 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:42.880 we do have to always take a step back and say, like, 338 00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:48.119 and what is my positioning within the milieu, and how 339 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:53.039 can I explore in such a way that is respectful 340 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:56.720 and that is open minded, and that doesn't require I 341 00:19:56.759 --> 00:20:00.799 guess the historical hubris that that many scientists or explorers 342 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:03.920 have had that said like I am the only person 343 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:07.720 who is equipped to answer this question, and I am 344 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:10.599 you know, my opinion on this is is so much 345 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:14.480 more important. Did you find that this kind of younger 346 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:20.440 generation of researchers that you've worked with is more sensitive 347 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:22.160 to this approach? 348 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.720 I mean, I don't know if I have a good 349 00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:32.119 way to contrast younger and older researchers broadly, but I mean, 350 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:38.200 for one chapter, the evolutionary biology chapter, the scientist she's 351 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:40.720 from Columbia originally but and now in the States, but 352 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:45.839 she studies a frog species in Borneo, and I think 353 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:49.240 she did, I mean, she did always collaborate with local 354 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:54.319 scientists and you know, relied on their expertise, and so 355 00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:57.559 that was always, you know, part of her research plan. 356 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:01.160 And that I mean that chapter was intro too, because 357 00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:03.480 you know, what you're saying about the monkey reminds me 358 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:07.440 of this story the frog species that she was studying. 359 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:11.759 It's like it has this sort of particular parental behavior 360 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:15.160 that scientists have found interesting that you know, the males 361 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:19.079 will carry their tadpoles on their backs to pools and 362 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:21.759 you know, drop them off there to grow up, and 363 00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:24.160 they'll look after the eggs until they become tadpoles and 364 00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:27.480 so on. And I think the initial reports of this were, 365 00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:30.599 you know, from Western scientists. It was maybe a few 366 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:34.839 decades ago that those appeared. But when I interviewed the 367 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:38.319 scientists and when I looked sort of closer at the papers, 368 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:42.759 it was an indigenous local who found that first evidence. 369 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:46.559 Like they were helping the you know, the team, this 370 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:49.359 team that had showed up from the US, and they 371 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:51.480 had a team of locals that were that were helping 372 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:54.960 with the scientific data collection. And it was the local 373 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:59.359 you know, staff worker who found the mail frog carrying 374 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:03.319 as tadpoles. So and it was one of those things 375 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:05.319 where I wanted to find out this person's name, but 376 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:07.359 there was no way I could do that because it 377 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:10.079 had happened, you know, decades ago, and there wasn't any 378 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:11.000 way to track that down. 379 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:15.279 Yeah, And I think that that's one of those It 380 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:17.519 makes me wonder how often is that the case? Right, 381 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:21.119 Like in the annals of history and the stories that 382 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:28.079 we tell, how often are these incredible discoveries, especially when 383 00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:34.640 we're talking about like ecology or investigation from or by 384 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:40.279 a group of scientists in a land that they're not from. 385 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:44.160 How often are the descriptions and the stories that they 386 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:48.720 tell really built I think on the on the really 387 00:22:48.759 --> 00:22:52.000 hard work of local individuals who because they don't have 388 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:57.599 the degrees or the associations or the whatever, they really 389 00:22:57.640 --> 00:22:58.400 don't always get there. 390 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:02.000 Due well they very rarely get there, do Yeah, I 391 00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:04.119 mean that person was not an author on the paper. 392 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:09.480 Yeah. Yeah, Well, yeah, it's rough, right, And so I'm curious, 393 00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:12.640 you know, as you as you went about kind of 394 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:16.319 telling these really interesting stories and ultimately how many how 395 00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:20.160 many different scientists well I shouldn't say how many individual scientists, 396 00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:23.400 but how many different stories did you include in the book? 397 00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:28.799 Yeah? So there's nine chapters and it's kind of a 398 00:23:28.839 --> 00:23:31.799 mix of life sciences and physical sciences, so sort of 399 00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:32.480 all over the board. 400 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:37.559 And did you kind of was the sort of choice 401 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:41.799