WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBS Costin's Radio.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, welcome back everyone. As we get into the ninth,

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<v Speaker 2>the nine o'clock hour here on a Friday ninth, continue

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<v Speaker 2>to remind you, because it sticks in my mind it

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<v Speaker 2>is November first, and of course this is the weekend

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<v Speaker 2>when the clocks are moved backs. We get an additional

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<v Speaker 2>hour of sleep theoretically. But please, as we learned last

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<v Speaker 2>hour with Mark shield Drop of Triple A, be a

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<v Speaker 2>little careful coming home on your evening commute on Friday

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<v Speaker 2>night because there's many more accidents, not necessarily huge accidents,

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<v Speaker 2>but you don't need the aggravation, that is for sure. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>before we get to our two guests, we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>have a conversation. It's not a debate, it's a conversation

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<v Speaker 2>and discussion with my two guests talking about question four,

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<v Speaker 2>which is the legalization of psychedelics. We have one more

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<v Speaker 2>pier of tickets to give you if you are calling

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<v Speaker 2>number ten. So I'm going to open up the contest

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<v Speaker 2>line just for a couple of minutes and you need

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<v Speaker 2>you can start now. The number that you want to

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<v Speaker 2>call is six, one, seven, nine, three, one, ten, thirty uh.

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<v Speaker 2>You if you are caller number ten and Noah is

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<v Speaker 2>simply going to tell you caller one caller too, there's

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<v Speaker 2>no long conversation until he gets to call her ten.

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<v Speaker 2>You will win two tickets to see to see next

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<v Speaker 2>Thursday Night, Celtic Thunder at the Premier Theater at Foxwood's

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<v Speaker 2>on November seventh. Now, if you don't think that you

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<v Speaker 2>can use these tickets, or you're not sure you can

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<v Speaker 2>get there, please don't deprive them for someone else. This

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<v Speaker 2>you will set off on a musical journey with the

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<v Speaker 2>Irish music sensations. Celtic Thunder Live. Complete show info and

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<v Speaker 2>tickets are available at Foxwoods dot com. Now again, all

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<v Speaker 2>you have to do is be calling number ten. And

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<v Speaker 2>by the way, if you are calling one, two, three, four,

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<v Speaker 2>well whatever, call right back. Okay, it's like a game

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<v Speaker 2>of musical chairs. We're not tracking phone calls. So all

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<v Speaker 2>Noah's going to tell you is your call us six,

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<v Speaker 2>your call us seven, and we'll get you. We'll get

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<v Speaker 2>you to call a ten and as soon as he

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<v Speaker 2>gets a winner, he will let me know in my

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<v Speaker 2>ear through my headphone and then you can stop calling.

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<v Speaker 2>So again, we've had five pairs of tickets. This is

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<v Speaker 2>the last pair of tickets here to see to see

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<v Speaker 2>and here Celtic Thunder, which I'm told is a great

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<v Speaker 2>show next Thursday night the Premier Theater at Foxwood's the

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<v Speaker 2>number six, one, seven, nine, three, one, ten thirty and

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<v Speaker 2>all you have to do is to be called number

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<v Speaker 2>ten two tickets and again if you don't win the

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<v Speaker 2>tickets and not use them, okay, this is a this

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<v Speaker 2>is we have a winner, so that takes care of

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<v Speaker 2>the calls. If you're calling now, Noah has a winner,

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<v Speaker 2>and he will get that information and we will get

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<v Speaker 2>those tickets to you. Noah will need all sorts of

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<v Speaker 2>information name, address, phone number, and your email so we

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<v Speaker 2>can get those tickets to If you're calling now, Noah

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<v Speaker 2>already has a winner, so sorry. Hopefully we'll have some

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<v Speaker 2>other prizes which we can get to you at some point,

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<v Speaker 2>but we'll call off. Call the call the phone phone

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<v Speaker 2>calls off. I believe that I have my two guests

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<v Speaker 2>here for tonight's conversation, and it is intended to be

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<v Speaker 2>a conversation. For those of you who are familiar. There

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<v Speaker 2>are five ballot questions here in Massachusetts. One of them

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<v Speaker 2>is a question number four and question number four deals

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<v Speaker 2>with the legalization of psychedelics, which is a question that

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<v Speaker 2>there are a couple of states oregone in Colorado where

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<v Speaker 2>there is some level of legalization and regulation of certain

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<v Speaker 2>so called natural psychedelic substances. I have two guests. One

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<v Speaker 2>has been with me before, Doctor Nassir Gomi. Doc Gomi,

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<v Speaker 2>welcome back tonight's side. Always good to have you with us.

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<v Speaker 2>Just by way of introduction, you're you are with Tough's

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<v Speaker 2>Medical School, if I'm not mistaken, and you were a

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<v Speaker 2>professor in psychiatry. Correct, yes, doctor Gomi. Are you there? Noah,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not hearing from doctor Gomi. Could you make sure

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<v Speaker 2>that his his microphone is open please. In the meantime,

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<v Speaker 2>I will also introduce Emily one shock. I'm hoping that

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<v Speaker 2>Emily can hear me. Emily, can you hear me?

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<v Speaker 3>I can hear you?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's that's what we're fit. We're halfway there already.

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<v Speaker 4>This is great, okay, And I can hear doctor Gomi.

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<v Speaker 2>So yes, I can hear you now, Doctor Gomi. I

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<v Speaker 2>was trying to reach you before. I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>if your microphone was muted, but we have you now.

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<v Speaker 2>As I introduced you earlier. You are a professor of

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<v Speaker 2>psychiatry at Tough's Medical Correct.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, I'm director of the mood disorders program also at

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<v Speaker 5>self Medical Center.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, thank you for that embellishment on the introduction.

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<v Speaker 2>And Emily, you are a proponent of the legalization of psychedelics.

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<v Speaker 2>What is your background. I've never had a chance to

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<v Speaker 2>speak with you before. I had CJ. Leconte on earlier

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<v Speaker 2>this week, who is a military veteran and graduate of

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<v Speaker 2>West Point as I understand that you also are a

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<v Speaker 2>military veteran.

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<v Speaker 4>Correct, Yes, I am. Yeah, I'm the grassroots campaign director

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<v Speaker 4>for Yes on four, a Navy veteran, and I grew

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<v Speaker 4>up in Wefield, so you know this is my turf.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, fair enough, since since you're the proponent of

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<v Speaker 2>this question, and again I want this to be a discussion.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not a debate, so it's not I will keep

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<v Speaker 2>it fair. But it's not one of these situations where

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<v Speaker 2>you have one minute and thirty seconds to respond. So

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<v Speaker 2>why would this be good either from your perspective or

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<v Speaker 2>better yet, from the perspective of the com wealth if

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<v Speaker 2>these psychedelics were legalized in some form of fashion here

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<v Speaker 2>in Massachusetts.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>Absolutely. So you know what this question does. It sets

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<v Speaker 4>up a two prong approach. Right, we have the regulated

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<v Speaker 4>framework where it's at of healing centers, and it sets

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<v Speaker 4>up the decriminalization piece of it. There's no retail sales.

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<v Speaker 4>And what I really like to say to people in

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<v Speaker 4>Massachusetts is this is already being led in Massachusetts from

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<v Speaker 4>research by mgh and Dana Farber and so many others.

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<v Speaker 4>And the reason I do this work is because natural

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<v Speaker 4>psychedelic therapy helped me really profoundly after I got out

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<v Speaker 4>of the Navy. Right when I commissioned to the Navy,

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<v Speaker 4>I had lost my little brother to gun violence. I

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<v Speaker 4>was the first female Navy steel candidate, and I had

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of you know, difficult times on active duty.

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<v Speaker 4>And when I finished up, I had PTSD depression anxiety.

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<v Speaker 4>I went to the VA in Bedford. I went through

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<v Speaker 4>all the traditional modalities that were available to me, and

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<v Speaker 4>I wasn't getting any better. And you know, I think

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<v Speaker 4>C Day How had a similar story.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 4>We both went to the resources we had and we

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<v Speaker 4>got released through them, and we weren't finding it and

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<v Speaker 4>we had you know, both of us turned to these

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<v Speaker 4>alternatives like so many other people to you know, find

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<v Speaker 4>the release and get our lives back.

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<v Speaker 2>So how did you access how did you access the

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<v Speaker 2>alternatives if they at this point are not legalized in Massachusetts.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I was really fortunate to get a scholarship from

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<v Speaker 4>the Hope Projects, which sponsors female veterans to go abroad

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<v Speaker 4>to these things. So I flew down to Jamaica two

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<v Speaker 4>years ago and went on a psilocybin retreat.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, now are you on continuing treatments or did you

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<v Speaker 2>have how many treatments? How many experiences? Did you have

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<v Speaker 2>more than one or how many?

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<v Speaker 4>So I had that initial treatment in Jamaica, I went

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<v Speaker 4>back one more time because I had become close with

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<v Speaker 4>the women I had met there and I still do therapy.

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<v Speaker 4>But that changed the trajectory of like my time and

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<v Speaker 4>mental health care. Like I had been in therapy at

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<v Speaker 4>that point since my brother had died and I wasn't improving,

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<v Speaker 4>and I kept things kept getting darker.

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<v Speaker 2>You've had you've had, just so I get this clarified.

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<v Speaker 2>You've had two treatments, yes, two treatments, and do you

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<v Speaker 2>feel that that you're okay and that that you be

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<v Speaker 2>able to now as a consequence, of those treatments go forward,

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<v Speaker 2>or do you feel that that at some point in

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<v Speaker 2>the not too distant future you might need a third treatment?

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<v Speaker 4>You know, I was really able to deal with the

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<v Speaker 4>darker things I was carrying with those two treatments, and

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<v Speaker 4>it gave me, you know, kind of like my lease

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<v Speaker 4>on life back, which was pretty profound.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So so you're you're okay at this point. Okay, fine,

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<v Speaker 2>let me get doctor Gami in here. Doctor Gomi, I

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<v Speaker 2>know from our previous conversation you were very skeptical of this.

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<v Speaker 2>You were on the other side of the case here.

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<v Speaker 2>You've just heard Emily's experience. What what what makes you

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<v Speaker 2>so concerned about the legalization? What is it that you

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<v Speaker 2>are objecting to?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, let me just begin by saying I'm also a

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<v Speaker 5>president of the Massachusetts Psychiatric Society, which represents the majority

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<v Speaker 5>of psychiatrists in the state, and we oppose this ballot question,

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<v Speaker 5>as does the American Psychiatric Association, as forty thousand psychiatrists

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<v Speaker 5>in the country. They oppose it, and that these drugs

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<v Speaker 5>are hallucinogens, which means that they cause hallucinations and delusions,

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<v Speaker 5>and that in itself is harmful. The only question is

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<v Speaker 5>whether they can be helpful to some extent to outweigh

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<v Speaker 5>the harms they have known harms. The harms are well known,

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<v Speaker 5>and as physicians and psychiatrists, we want to let people

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<v Speaker 5>know about that because we see the cases of people

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<v Speaker 5>who are harmed to We all describe in a minute

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<v Speaker 5>the benefits are possible but not known yet, and I

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<v Speaker 5>agree with Emily that there should be research, as she says,

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<v Speaker 5>but that's not a reason to legalize the medicin the drugs.

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<v Speaker 5>It's actually a reason not to legalize them because we

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<v Speaker 5>don't know that they are actually helpful enough to outweigh

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<v Speaker 5>their harms. For instance, if we have a new cancer

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<v Speaker 5>drug possibility, we don't say, okay, let's legalize this new

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<v Speaker 5>cancer drug and let everyone have it in their spare

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<v Speaker 5>bedroom as in this spill. We just study it until

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<v Speaker 5>we know it's proven with research, and then doctors give

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<v Speaker 5>it to patients safely in clinics and hospitals, which is

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<v Speaker 5>our position. You know, Emily presented her case, and she

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<v Speaker 5>has other veteran colleagues who have had good experiences. But

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<v Speaker 5>we doctors see just as many cases for each case

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<v Speaker 5>that's good, we have a bad one and I have

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<v Speaker 5>not just one, but many I see in my clinical practice.

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<v Speaker 5>We see these cases in the silence of our clinics,

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<v Speaker 5>where there's privacy and confidentiality. These patients who do badly

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<v Speaker 5>are not come in on your radio show. They're not

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<v Speaker 5>becoming employees of political action committees. But I'll give you

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<v Speaker 5>an example. I had a young woman with mild depression

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<v Speaker 5>in her early twenties who took ayahuasca, which has one

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<v Speaker 5>of the substances in ballid question is called dmt dimethyl

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<v Speaker 5>trip to me that's in there. She had mild depression,

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<v Speaker 5>but after taking this hallucinogen, she got a whole lot worse,

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<v Speaker 5>with more severe depression, developed severe delusions, hallucinations, was hospitalized

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<v Speaker 5>for six months, developed what we call catatonia, which means

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<v Speaker 5>she stopped eating, drinking, or talking or moving and had

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<v Speaker 5>to get a feeding tube and almost died and got

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<v Speaker 5>better with electro convulsive treatment. We had to go to

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<v Speaker 5>that extreme and make her better. I can give you

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<v Speaker 5>other examples of people. One another person who got addicted

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<v Speaker 5>to hallucinogens as her main drug of addiction and then

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<v Speaker 5>got suicidal. So there are good cases and there are

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<v Speaker 5>bad cases, and that's exactly why doctors in offices need

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<v Speaker 5>to weigh the risks and benefits so that the patients

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<v Speaker 5>who could benefit will benefit, but the ones who will

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<v Speaker 5>get harmed don't get harmed, and also that the general

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<v Speaker 5>public doesn't get harmed, which we can talk about.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, we're going to pause there. I have got to

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<v Speaker 2>take a break. I guess we're talking about question four

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<v Speaker 2>for the those who have joined us. Is the limited

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<v Speaker 2>is listed as a question for the limited legalization and

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<v Speaker 2>regulation of certain natural psychedelic substances. We're talking with two guests.

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<v Speaker 2>You just heard from doctor Nasirgami, who is a professor

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<v Speaker 2>of psychiatry at Tufts University. He's also involved with a

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<v Speaker 2>number of groups. And also you heard from Emily one Shuck,

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<v Speaker 2>a Navy veteran, and thank you for your service. Emily

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<v Speaker 2>who as a consequence of some occurrences in her personal

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<v Speaker 2>life as well as the loss of a brother and

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<v Speaker 2>also what she experienced while in the military, she has

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<v Speaker 2>gone through this and she's a big advocate of it.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll continue our conversation and then we're going to take

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<v Speaker 2>phone calls. So if any of you want to ask questions,

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<v Speaker 2>I prefer questions as opposed to both of these folks

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<v Speaker 2>are highly credentialed in terms of their experiences, professional and otherwise,

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<v Speaker 2>questions are would be much more appreciated, uh, at least

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<v Speaker 2>for the ballance of this hour. And the number is

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<v Speaker 2>always a six, one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty

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<v Speaker 2>or six one, seven, nine three one thirty. Be right

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<v Speaker 2>back on Nightside with more conversation about ballot question number

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<v Speaker 2>four here in Massachusetts.

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<v Speaker 1>Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.

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<v Speaker 1>Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World

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<v Speaker 1>nights Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're talking about question four on the Massachusetts ballot.

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<v Speaker 2>Last time. We will touch this before Tuesday. So if

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<v Speaker 2>you haven't voted, you have a question, feel free you

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<v Speaker 2>have the numbers. My guests here are Emily, who is

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<v Speaker 2>a Just to keep it simple here, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>use Emily's first name. Her entire name is Emily one Shock.

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<v Speaker 2>But Emily is a Navy veteran who went to Jamaica

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<v Speaker 2>for two treatments with these drugs. And she is a

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<v Speaker 2>proponent and doctor Gami, who is a professor of psychia

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<v Speaker 2>and is also representing the points of view of Massachusetts

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<v Speaker 2>psychiatrists as well as psychiatrists around the country. So let

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<v Speaker 2>me ask an open question here to both of you,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm trying to find out if this possibility. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>both of you see this very differently, although I think

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<v Speaker 2>there's some acknowledgment by doctor Gomi that some people have

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<v Speaker 2>benefited from it. I'm going to ask doctor Gomi to

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<v Speaker 2>respond first, and Emily you second, and that is, would

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<v Speaker 2>it be reasonable to say, Okay, why can't there be

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<v Speaker 2>some opportunity for individuals who find themselves in extreme circumstances

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<v Speaker 2>like Emily found herself in where she's willing to fly

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<v Speaker 2>to Jamaica and get a couple of treatments where she

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<v Speaker 2>could work with a psychiatrist here in Massachusetts and maybe,

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<v Speaker 2>under some circumstances, be able to be treated here in Massachusetts.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me start with you, doctor Gomi. Would that be

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<v Speaker 2>impossible to do under federal current federal drug laws and

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<v Speaker 2>drug laws in Massachusetts, there's no option available for sort

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<v Speaker 2>of like, let's let's give this a trial on a

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<v Speaker 2>very limited basis if a psychiatrist said this might be beneficial

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<v Speaker 2>to my.

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<v Speaker 5>No, it's totally doable as long as it's effective, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>you just have to do the research to show that

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<v Speaker 5>it works. The venture capitalists who stand to make billions

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<v Speaker 5>from eventually getting commercialization, which would be their next step

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<v Speaker 5>if this if this question passes, they've spent five to

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<v Speaker 5>ten million dollars just in Massachusetts this past year to

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<v Speaker 5>get this on the ballot and advertise it. They could

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<v Speaker 5>have spent that money to do one or two randomized

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<v Speaker 5>clinical trials which would show benefit, and the FDA has

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<v Speaker 5>put these psilocybin in one of these substances on a

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<v Speaker 5>fast track. I know, I worked for the pharmaceutical company

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<v Speaker 5>for four years in drug discovery, and we spent that

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<v Speaker 5>amount of money and got a randomized trial done within

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<v Speaker 5>a year with e ketamine like drug, which is exactly

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<v Speaker 5>a psychedelic type drug. It could be done and then

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<v Speaker 5>we would know if they worked and then we could

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<v Speaker 5>give it to people. But instead they're trying to just

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<v Speaker 5>advertise their way to the market. And perhaps it's because

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<v Speaker 5>if you do the research, you have to also be

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<v Speaker 5>willing to accept the possibility that they would not work

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<v Speaker 5>or they're not effective. So since we know these drugs

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<v Speaker 5>cost hallucinations, they can make people psychotic, they land people

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<v Speaker 5>in emergency rooms fifty percent more than not. We need

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<v Speaker 5>to know that there's some benefit to outweigh that harm,

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<v Speaker 5>and if there is, then yes, we could give it

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<v Speaker 5>to people, and we would give it to people. But

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<v Speaker 5>there's no other drug in medicine, you know, again, in cancer,

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<v Speaker 5>cardiovascro disease, we don't just say here's an unproven drug.

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<v Speaker 5>Let me just pass a law to give it to somebody. Well,

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<v Speaker 5>we try to give it to people when they work,

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<v Speaker 5>and we'd be willing to quite do that. That's our position.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, let me get Emily's reaction. Emily, I know that

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<v Speaker 2>this has been a big ballid initiative, and obviously it's

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<v Speaker 2>going to be on the ballot on Tuesday. No matter what,

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<v Speaker 2>would have it been more reasonable to accept the proposal

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<v Speaker 2>that I suggested that somehow, some way we have you know,

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<v Speaker 2>not that everybody can go into any doctor's office and say, hey, doc,

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<v Speaker 2>write me that script, but have certain doctors who people

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<v Speaker 2>could go to, like yourself, and as opposed to have

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<v Speaker 2>a youth to have gone to a foreign country to

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<v Speaker 2>get this treatment. Would have it been better to have

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<v Speaker 2>started down that track? Why what was that track? Did

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<v Speaker 2>you try to get down that track?

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<v Speaker 4>So that's a great question. You know, the reason this

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<v Speaker 4>is on the ballot is really about access, because there's

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<v Speaker 4>a couple of bills that came through the House legislature

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<v Speaker 4>that you know, they didn't get anywhere. And the most

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<v Speaker 4>efficient method of getting this to the people who need

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<v Speaker 4>it is going to be as a ballot initiative. And

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<v Speaker 4>I want to touch on a few things in there.

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<v Speaker 4>We have a lot of psychiatrists that support us. We

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<v Speaker 4>have the psychiatrists that are doing research here in Massachusetts.

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<v Speaker 4>We have some really prominent psychiatrists from across the country

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<v Speaker 4>that support us, and there is a lot of research

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<v Speaker 4>done on these substances, and you know, we have a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of evidence that they work and that they really

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<v Speaker 4>help a lot of people. And you know, I don't

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<v Speaker 4>want to come off to saying they're not without risk,

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<v Speaker 4>because they are. But that's why, you know, the model

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<v Speaker 4>of the ballot question sets up is so structured and

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<v Speaker 4>is so rigorous, you know, to help people get these

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<v Speaker 4>treatments that they need. And you know, and I just

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<v Speaker 4>want to kind of touch on like there's a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of fear mongering that doctor Gami is doing the a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>Emily, do me a favor I don't want any attacks here.

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<v Speaker 2>I really don't, because I think that both of you

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<v Speaker 2>are coming to this conversation with clean hands, and I

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<v Speaker 2>want to be really strict. You know that if you

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<v Speaker 2>disagree with something, but when you characterize him as doing

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<v Speaker 2>fear money, that's fear mongering. That's an not ominum attack.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't I don't want either of you to

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<v Speaker 2>engage in that sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 5>So if you would just what she said.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, let me do this, let me see if she

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<v Speaker 2>wants to rephrase it, and then I'll get you to

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<v Speaker 2>respond to that. Okay, but I do you want to

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<v Speaker 2>change that? And just yeah, I mean it's just it's

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<v Speaker 2>not fair.

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<v Speaker 4>Go ahead, short, sure thing. So I want to touch

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<v Speaker 4>on I think, you know about the money that he mentioned,

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<v Speaker 4>and I think it's taken a lot of effort on

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<v Speaker 4>you know, the team that's behind this, Like that money

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<v Speaker 4>is there because this is a huge education campaign, right,

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<v Speaker 4>and the people that are backing this, they're doing it

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<v Speaker 4>because they care, because they've had family members that have

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<v Speaker 4>been let down by the mental health system. Like there's

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of care and a lot of thought going

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<v Speaker 4>into this, and it's really about you know, creating another option,

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<v Speaker 4>because we're living in a time when I think people

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<v Speaker 4>need other options that are feeling quite hopeless. And you

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<v Speaker 4>know the reason that myself and the team and the

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<v Speaker 4>donors and everyone cares about this is because you know,

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<v Speaker 4>we're trying to do something different to help people and

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<v Speaker 4>lead with curiosity.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, enough, doctor me.

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<v Speaker 5>If you wanted to respond to the yeah, I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>I think we know it's a tough time and a

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<v Speaker 5>lot of people that are suffering, and we all support

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<v Speaker 5>getting treatment for PTSD, including with these substances if they work.

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<v Speaker 5>But let me just say it's not the most efficient

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<v Speaker 5>way to get access. The same political action committee that's

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<v Speaker 5>spending all this money did so in Colorado two years

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<v Speaker 5>ago in an orderedon a couple years before that. In

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<v Speaker 5>those six seven years of spending probably now twenty to

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<v Speaker 5>thirty million, they easily could have proven one or two

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<v Speaker 5>of these substance being effective. And it's not fear mongering,

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<v Speaker 5>it's truth telling in the face of misleading information. When

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<v Speaker 5>you say there's a lot of evidence that these drugs work.

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<v Speaker 5>None of these five substances, let me emphasize this, none

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<v Speaker 5>of these five has even been studied in PTSD, much

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<v Speaker 5>less proven. One drug that has been studied was MDMA,

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<v Speaker 5>and that's not one of these five studied drugs that

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<v Speaker 5>was reported to be effective in about ninety percent of people,

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<v Speaker 5>which people often cite. What they don't tell you is

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<v Speaker 5>that seventy percent of placebo patients also got better with

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<v Speaker 5>psychotherapy in that study, and the study was not approved

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<v Speaker 5>by the FDA because of data manipulation as well as

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<v Speaker 5>ethical violations by the researchers, which is why one of

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<v Speaker 5>the journals retracted it. So that's for PTSD for depression.

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<v Speaker 5>Psilocybin has been shown that it is not more effective

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<v Speaker 5>than the standard aid depressants that we have now, which

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<v Speaker 5>were much safer at high doses and at low doses,

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<v Speaker 5>which is actually the kind that in this bill you're

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<v Speaker 5>allowed to grow in your bedroom as home growth. These substances,

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<v Speaker 5>it's not really about mental health, it's just about recreation.

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<v Speaker 5>But the low doses that you're allowed to grow at

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<v Speaker 5>home have been shown to be equivalent to placebo in

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<v Speaker 5>a recent meta analysis. So there's not a lot of

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<v Speaker 5>evidence if they work. There's a lot of evidence that

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<v Speaker 5>you they don't work. They're not better than what we have,

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<v Speaker 5>but they're more harmful or they haven't even been studied.

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<v Speaker 5>So I don't think that's an accurate presentation of the

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<v Speaker 5>science and the fact it's wishful thinking. We hope the

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<v Speaker 5>wishes are true, but we can't be giving everybody seven

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<v Speaker 5>million people in the state access to these drugs, including

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<v Speaker 5>their children and teenagers in the spare bedroom, just based

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<v Speaker 5>on the wishful thinking.

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<v Speaker 2>Emily, let me ask you a question, and friends of

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<v Speaker 2>mine and self have sort of analogized this to medical marijuana,

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<v Speaker 2>and and I want to give you a chance to

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<v Speaker 2>respond to this, and I hope you you can. You

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<v Speaker 2>can assuage some people's apprehensions. When medical marijuana first came

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<v Speaker 2>here in Massachusetts, a lot of people were saying, look,

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<v Speaker 2>this is only for people who really need medical marijuana.

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<v Speaker 2>Why why do we want to deny people a drug

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<v Speaker 2>that will help keep them more comfortable? And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>that's the old nose under the camel's nose, under the

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<v Speaker 2>tent argument that shortly after medical marijuana, then marijuana as

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<v Speaker 2>a recreational drug was approved. So I think that there

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<v Speaker 2>are some people who might say, gee, I'm sympathetic to

419
00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:48.359
<v Speaker 2>what Emily and CJ have gone through, and I asked

420
00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:52.440
<v Speaker 2>this of CJ the other night. How can you assure

421
00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:58.880
<v Speaker 2>people that even if this, this Batlet initiative passed, it's

422
00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:04.200
<v Speaker 2>not just the first up down the road toward a

423
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:08.720
<v Speaker 2>more widespread availability of psychedelics as opposed to limiting it

424
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.240
<v Speaker 2>just to people like yourself or CJ who could benefit

425
00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:14.279
<v Speaker 2>from it. How do you respond to that argument.

426
00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:18.039
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so, yeah, that's a good question. I've heard, you know,

427
00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:20.799
<v Speaker 4>people generally compare this to cannabis, which I understand, and

428
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:23.319
<v Speaker 4>I think the biggest difference for me, right is the

429
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:29.079
<v Speaker 4>profile of these substances. Psychedelic experiences are you can be

430
00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:33.119
<v Speaker 4>an engineer, are very challenging, and you know, people come

431
00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:37.960
<v Speaker 4>to them looking for healing and growth, and these experiences

432
00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:41.599
<v Speaker 4>are you know, not things you necessarily want to do

433
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:43.640
<v Speaker 4>all the time, which is why they work in a

434
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:47.160
<v Speaker 4>therapeutic model, right, and they help you process really difficult things,

435
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:52.799
<v Speaker 4>and you know, I it's just such a different profile.

436
00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:55.759
<v Speaker 4>And I think the other piece of this that I

437
00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:57.559
<v Speaker 4>want to, you know, just be open about is a

438
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:01.200
<v Speaker 4>lot of people are currently using these right, and I

439
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:03.799
<v Speaker 4>think the important that we acknowledge that, and that's a

440
00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:06.200
<v Speaker 4>big part of the reason this has to happen is

441
00:24:06.200 --> 00:24:08.960
<v Speaker 4>because the best thing we can do for public health

442
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:11.519
<v Speaker 4>and safety is be able to talk about it, be

443
00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:14.839
<v Speaker 4>able to have vetted information about it. And you know,

444
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:17.799
<v Speaker 4>the further in the dark we keep it, you know, frankly,

445
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:18.960
<v Speaker 4>the last safe people will be.

446
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:23.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's obviously, that's what we're trying to do tonight.

447
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:29.160
<v Speaker 2>And again, I got to take a break. It's okay,

448
00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:31.240
<v Speaker 2>doctor Gama. I got to take a break. What a

449
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:34.039
<v Speaker 2>news break. And then I'll give you a chance to

450
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.400
<v Speaker 2>quickly respond to that point. And then we'll get to

451
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:39.559
<v Speaker 2>phone calls, which I think will be the most important.

452
00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:42.720
<v Speaker 2>The only lines that are open right now is six one, seven, nine, three,

453
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:45.240
<v Speaker 2>ten thirty. If you're dialing two five four ten thirty,

454
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:47.119
<v Speaker 2>you're going to get a busy signal six one seven

455
00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:51.240
<v Speaker 2>nine three one ten thirty. Back with my guest. We're

456
00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:56.240
<v Speaker 2>talking about Question four, which is a initiative question here

457
00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:59.599
<v Speaker 2>in Massachusetts dealing with the legalization and regulation of psychedelics.

458
00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:03.759
<v Speaker 2>Emily one Chuck, a Navy veteran who has benefited, according

459
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:08.640
<v Speaker 2>to her representations, from treatments with these substances, and had

460
00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:12.000
<v Speaker 2>to go off short at Jamaica and doctor Nasir Gami

461
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:16.799
<v Speaker 2>who's a psychiatrist and a professor of psych psychiatry a

462
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:23.319
<v Speaker 2>Toughts University. We'll be back with questions and more conversation. Again,

463
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:26.720
<v Speaker 2>I appreciate both of the guests being as polite and

464
00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:29.720
<v Speaker 2>respectful as possible. I think that's the only way anasts

465
00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:32.799
<v Speaker 2>make progress on these complicated issues. Back at this after

466
00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:35.720
<v Speaker 2>this On Nightside.

467
00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:40.319
<v Speaker 1>It's Night Side with Dan on Boston's news radio. It's

468
00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:44.839
<v Speaker 1>Night Side with Dan Ray on Way Boston's news radio.

469
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:49.119
<v Speaker 2>We're talking about Question four, the Massachusetts ballid initiative. Everybody

470
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:51.519
<v Speaker 2>get a chance to vote on five ballot initiatives will

471
00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:53.640
<v Speaker 2>cover them all, and this is one that I think

472
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:56.640
<v Speaker 2>is probably, according to the polls, the one that is

473
00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:59.920
<v Speaker 2>probably closest right now. The limited legalization regulation of certain

474
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:04.920
<v Speaker 2>natural psychedelic substances. I asked Emily, who's our guest, Emily

475
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:11.000
<v Speaker 2>one chock Navy veteran who has experienced the these psychedelic

476
00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:14.440
<v Speaker 2>substances twice on a trips to Jamaica she took and

477
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:16.839
<v Speaker 2>when she says she benefited greatly from them. And asked

478
00:26:16.839 --> 00:26:18.839
<v Speaker 2>her about whether or not this is just a one

479
00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:23.480
<v Speaker 2>step in the direction of full legalization, not just medical

480
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:26.720
<v Speaker 2>and analogize it to medical marijuana. Doctor Gami, you wanted

481
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:28.960
<v Speaker 2>to respond to what Emily had to say, I could

482
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:30.839
<v Speaker 2>make it a quick response. I'd appreciate it because I

483
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:32.799
<v Speaker 2>got packed lines. Go right ahead, doctor sure.

484
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:34.960
<v Speaker 5>This will be my last colum before you go to callers.

485
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:37.400
<v Speaker 5>She mentioned that people are using it, so we should

486
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:39.359
<v Speaker 5>let more people use it, which I think is this

487
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:42.279
<v Speaker 5>questionable logic. And let me say that everything I'm going

488
00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:46.400
<v Speaker 5>to say, listeners can go to the Massachusetts Psychiatry Psychiatric

489
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:49.640
<v Speaker 5>Society website and we have links there on a resources

490
00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:51.599
<v Speaker 5>page to all of the scientific studies for all of

491
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:55.480
<v Speaker 5>the percentages I'm giving you. The problem is that you know,

492
00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:58.799
<v Speaker 5>we support giving it to the patients and who need it.

493
00:26:58.839 --> 00:27:00.799
<v Speaker 5>But if you legalize it, to grow it in your

494
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:04.640
<v Speaker 5>home and give it recreationally, as this spound question has it,

495
00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:07.400
<v Speaker 5>you expose the entire population to it, which makes it

496
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:11.240
<v Speaker 5>raises public health issues, which I have a degree in. There.

497
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:15.319
<v Speaker 5>You have problems with car accidents and hospitalizations. So with

498
00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:17.960
<v Speaker 5>car accidents, there's an accident every four minutes in the state.

499
00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:21.359
<v Speaker 5>One hundred people die daily from car accidents in the country.

500
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:26.200
<v Speaker 5>People often cite veterans dying suicide by fifty people a day. Well,

501
00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:28.640
<v Speaker 5>that's obviously a problem, but one hundred people also die

502
00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:31.960
<v Speaker 5>from car accidents. That's why the Massachusetts State Police and

503
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:35.680
<v Speaker 5>the Boston Police Association opposed this question. And we know

504
00:27:35.720 --> 00:27:39.440
<v Speaker 5>that regular hallucinogen users who admit that they drive under

505
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:42.759
<v Speaker 5>the influence and these drugs call it just a second

506
00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:47.400
<v Speaker 5>visual hallucinations and distortions. Separately, there is data now from

507
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:51.599
<v Speaker 5>California that hallucinogen users have a fifty percent increased rate

508
00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:55.039
<v Speaker 5>of emergency room visits and hospitalizations versus only one percent

509
00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:58.359
<v Speaker 5>with cannabis and alcohol. So these are known harms which

510
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:01.400
<v Speaker 5>are going to be extended to the entire population. And

511
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:05.160
<v Speaker 5>that's why the Massachusetts College of Emergency Physicians also opposes

512
00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:05.920
<v Speaker 5>this bollent question.

513
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.599
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Emily, you wanted to add something, if you.

514
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:13.480
<v Speaker 4>Could do it, wrap it up, yep. So you know,

515
00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:16.720
<v Speaker 4>these substances have already been decriminalized in Colorado for a

516
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:19.599
<v Speaker 4>year in the Department of Transportation and then Colorado Hospital

517
00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:23.319
<v Speaker 4>Association show no uptick in any of the things doctor

518
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:25.279
<v Speaker 4>Gami is talking about, right, and that is a state

519
00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:28.039
<v Speaker 4>that his past legislation that is almost identical to what

520
00:28:28.119 --> 00:28:30.240
<v Speaker 4>we're doing here, right, So we already have a ground

521
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:32.160
<v Speaker 4>that we've seen this happen on. And there's eight cities

522
00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:37.039
<v Speaker 4>in towns in Massachusetts that have already done this decriminalized. Right,

523
00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:38.920
<v Speaker 4>so this is already going on around us. And if

524
00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:41.720
<v Speaker 4>what doctor gamis saying, you know, this was worst case scenario,

525
00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:43.200
<v Speaker 4>we would already see it here.

526
00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:47.119
<v Speaker 5>I can respond to that. Please, well, I'll let him

527
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:51.559
<v Speaker 5>you've done when you're finished. Because decriminalization is not the

528
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:54.640
<v Speaker 5>same thing as legalization. We support decriminalization, which is just

529
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:57.400
<v Speaker 5>the legislature or a talent passing a law that people

530
00:28:57.400 --> 00:29:01.559
<v Speaker 5>won't get criminal punishment for these substances. Support that legalization

531
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:04.079
<v Speaker 5>means you're growing in your spare bedroom, your teenager has

532
00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:07.440
<v Speaker 5>access to it, and nobody supports that. It's very different

533
00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:11.000
<v Speaker 5>than just saying that that there's no criminal path punishment.

534
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:14.559
<v Speaker 5>The Colorado data is just one year the California data

535
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:18.880
<v Speaker 5>or the opposite. So and Colorado and Oregon have actually

536
00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:21.960
<v Speaker 5>not been reporting data from the treatment centers that they've

537
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:24.440
<v Speaker 5>set up in terms of the effects of these drugs.

538
00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:27.000
<v Speaker 2>In Yeah, the only thing that I know about Colorado,

539
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:33.960
<v Speaker 2>and I've been trying to find Emily information on on

540
00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:38.880
<v Speaker 2>on marijuana accidents and problems out there in Colorado seems

541
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:42.480
<v Speaker 2>to be hesitant to release that information. I think part

542
00:29:42.519 --> 00:29:44.359
<v Speaker 2>of it is that there's no way that they can

543
00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:48.240
<v Speaker 2>detect and if they can detect drunk drivers obviously with

544
00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:52.160
<v Speaker 2>breathalyzers and blood alcohol content tests, but they are not

545
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:57.160
<v Speaker 2>able to actually look at someone and make a determination

546
00:29:57.319 --> 00:29:59.880
<v Speaker 2>if they're actually stone. But let me do this. Let

547
00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:02.240
<v Speaker 2>me We got a bunch of calls wedding folks, So

548
00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:04.440
<v Speaker 2>if it's okay, let's I'm going to ask people to

549
00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:07.119
<v Speaker 2>direct questions, and I'm going to ask for quick responses

550
00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:10.440
<v Speaker 2>if possible. I think we've we've laid out the questions.

551
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:13.559
<v Speaker 2>Both of you have laid out your positions really effectively.

552
00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:16.720
<v Speaker 2>Let me go first off to Danielle in Charlestown. Danielle,

553
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:19.240
<v Speaker 2>I prefer a question as opposed to a speech. Go

554
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:20.279
<v Speaker 2>right ahead, Danielle.

555
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:24.200
<v Speaker 6>Sure, Hi, Yeah, thanks so much for having me so

556
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:27.839
<v Speaker 6>uh my question, Uh well, Emily, I really like to

557
00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:30.880
<v Speaker 6>hear a little bit more about you know, how you

558
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:35.359
<v Speaker 6>felt before and after uh using this therapy and also

559
00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:36.519
<v Speaker 6>how does one get this?

560
00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:39.559
<v Speaker 1>Is this? You know, do you go to a.

561
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:40.440
<v Speaker 6>Store to buy this?

562
00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:42.960
<v Speaker 7>Yeah?

563
00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:45.839
<v Speaker 4>Thank you so much. So, I you know, before I

564
00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:48.920
<v Speaker 4>went to Jamaica, I was having like all kinds of

565
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:54.319
<v Speaker 4>physical manifestations of anxiety and depression, and I was unable

566
00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:57.240
<v Speaker 4>to enjoy like any part of my life because of

567
00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:00.559
<v Speaker 4>what I was dealing with. And the thing the experience

568
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:03.000
<v Speaker 4>there helped me process a lot of emotions that I

569
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:05.960
<v Speaker 4>otherwise couldn't have touched and I could, you know, go

570
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:10.400
<v Speaker 4>into a more detail, but essentially it like accelerated therapy

571
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:13.480
<v Speaker 4>for me by probably like a decade. And just to

572
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:15.480
<v Speaker 4>hit on you know, like how you can access this here.

573
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:18.519
<v Speaker 4>It's not a store, right, you'd go to a therapy center.

574
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:21.079
<v Speaker 4>You would do you know, an extensive intake with a

575
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:24.079
<v Speaker 4>trained and licensed facilitator. You would go and have a

576
00:31:24.119 --> 00:31:26.960
<v Speaker 4>supervised session. You would be you know, you'd have to

577
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:29.240
<v Speaker 4>have a plan, someone have to come drive you home,

578
00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:32.599
<v Speaker 4>and then you have all these integration sessions afterwards to

579
00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:33.960
<v Speaker 4>help you work through what came up.

580
00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:38.319
<v Speaker 2>So and that's assuming that this this legend.

581
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:39.559
<v Speaker 4>Yes, you can't do that right now?

582
00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:43.519
<v Speaker 5>Can I speak to the trained license facilitator claim.

583
00:31:43.880 --> 00:31:45.680
<v Speaker 2>Go right ahead, quick comment if you were so.

584
00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:49.039
<v Speaker 5>As we've family and I have debated this three times

585
00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:52.039
<v Speaker 5>and you're not saying exactly what the ballot question says,

586
00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:55.279
<v Speaker 5>which is that it requires that these so called facilitators

587
00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:58.599
<v Speaker 5>not be limited to being medical professionals and mental health

588
00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:01.880
<v Speaker 5>professionals in order gone they are high school graduates, and

589
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:04.319
<v Speaker 5>in this ballid question, they're only required to take the

590
00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:07.960
<v Speaker 5>equivalent of about a one month of training on hallucinogens.

591
00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:10.720
<v Speaker 5>I've had four years of medical school, four years of

592
00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:15.839
<v Speaker 5>psychija residency, thirty years of practice treating over ten thousand patients. There.

593
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:18.720
<v Speaker 5>You will not have medical and mental health professionals at

594
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:21.359
<v Speaker 5>these facilities, but are rather high school graduates for the

595
00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:22.200
<v Speaker 5>one month course.

596
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:27.519
<v Speaker 6>So what are the requirements here if this passes?

597
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:30.640
<v Speaker 4>So if this passes, that'll be decided during the two

598
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:33.720
<v Speaker 4>year rulemaking process. Right, They'll be overseen by the commission,

599
00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:36.079
<v Speaker 4>the advisory board that this bill sets up. And what

600
00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:39.160
<v Speaker 4>we're seeing in Colorado is a baseline that requires one

601
00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:41.519
<v Speaker 4>hundred and fifty hours of classroom. I think it's like

602
00:32:41.559 --> 00:32:45.119
<v Speaker 4>fifty hours of practicum and then another fifty hours of

603
00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:49.720
<v Speaker 4>like overseeing fractus.

604
00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:51.799
<v Speaker 5>Right, which is grossly inadequate. I mean, we've have tens

605
00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:54.440
<v Speaker 5>of thousands of hours for the average position around this

606
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:56.319
<v Speaker 5>is practicing medicine without a license.

607
00:32:56.359 --> 00:32:59.559
<v Speaker 4>Basically, I'm not sure if you've ever witnessed the psilocybin session,

608
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:03.720
<v Speaker 4>but generally what happens is, you know, the you've predicipent

609
00:33:03.799 --> 00:33:05.759
<v Speaker 4>in just the medicine and then lies down with an

610
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:09.759
<v Speaker 4>iphold and generally the cries for four to eight hours.

611
00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:14.119
<v Speaker 4>And that is you know, and then has helped processing

612
00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:17.680
<v Speaker 4>what's gone on after that, And it's very different than

613
00:33:17.799 --> 00:33:18.440
<v Speaker 4>medical model.

614
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:20.480
<v Speaker 5>Well, the problem, Emily is that you have to select

615
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.759
<v Speaker 5>that participant. And if you have, if you're one of

616
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:25.279
<v Speaker 5>five percent of the population hundreds of thousand of people

617
00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:28.519
<v Speaker 5>in the state who have bipolar illness or severe depression,

618
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:34.680
<v Speaker 5>you're more prone to having well screening and orgon to

619
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:37.119
<v Speaker 5>ask someone whether they've ever taken lithium before. A high

620
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:40.119
<v Speaker 5>school graduate can't tell whether someone has bipolar illness or not.

621
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:43.440
<v Speaker 5>That's difficult for the average position. Furthermore, one of these

622
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:47.759
<v Speaker 5>five rugs, one of these five drugs causes party.

623
00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:52.599
<v Speaker 2>Go go right ahead, down, doctor, I'm sorry, don't turn

624
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:54.400
<v Speaker 2>don't turnings microphone down? Please?

625
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:57.319
<v Speaker 5>No, I'm sorry. Did you hear me?

626
00:33:57.799 --> 00:33:59.960
<v Speaker 2>No? I missed that. I'm not sure if you spell

627
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:02.400
<v Speaker 2>one of the just finish that thought.

628
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:05.920
<v Speaker 5>Okay, okay, one of the five subfaces also causes heart

629
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:09.079
<v Speaker 5>attacks cardiac arrest, which is obviously not something a high

630
00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:10.519
<v Speaker 5>school graduate would be prepared for.

631
00:34:11.320 --> 00:34:14.880
<v Speaker 2>Okay, let me pause here, and let's take a break,

632
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:16.519
<v Speaker 2>and we will try to get to at least a

633
00:34:16.519 --> 00:34:21.000
<v Speaker 2>couple more callers. Right after the break, Danielle and Chiles

634
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:22.599
<v Speaker 2>Non thank you for your call. We'll be back on

635
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:26.239
<v Speaker 2>night Side with a final segment talking about question four.

636
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:30.400
<v Speaker 2>And I think that these two guests have stated their

637
00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:32.760
<v Speaker 2>positions pretty clearly and should help all of you be

638
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:34.400
<v Speaker 2>able to make up your mind whether you're a yes

639
00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:36.360
<v Speaker 2>or no one for coming back on Nightside.

640
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:41.960
<v Speaker 1>Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's news Radio.

641
00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:46.039
<v Speaker 1>Now back to Dan ray line from the Window World

642
00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:49.280
<v Speaker 1>Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.

643
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:52.800
<v Speaker 2>All right, let's keep rolling here. I'm gonna I'm gonna

644
00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:56.760
<v Speaker 2>ask again the questions. If you could just direct the

645
00:34:56.840 --> 00:35:00.000
<v Speaker 2>question and then if we could get I wanted to

646
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:01.719
<v Speaker 2>try to get as many calls and as we can.

647
00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:04.119
<v Speaker 2>I have full lines, folks, So work with me here

648
00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:07.760
<v Speaker 2>if you will. James, James, you are next on nights

649
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:11.679
<v Speaker 2>I go ahead, James, your question for either doctor Gomi

650
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:12.760
<v Speaker 2>or Emily one shock.

651
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:17.400
<v Speaker 7>All right, Dan, thanks for taking my call. Just a

652
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:19.920
<v Speaker 7>generic question. Seems there's a bit of a veteran focus,

653
00:35:20.039 --> 00:35:23.360
<v Speaker 7>and we know veterans kind of have a suchen abuse problem,

654
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:25.559
<v Speaker 7>so with this add to it, and there's also a

655
00:35:25.639 --> 00:35:30.119
<v Speaker 7>veteran suicide issue, is there any research around this helping

656
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:35.159
<v Speaker 7>or actually increasing suicides for either of the proponents or opponents?

657
00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:39.599
<v Speaker 2>Okay, doctor Gomi, let me let doctor Gomi start with

658
00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:41.920
<v Speaker 2>this one, and then Emily, I'm going to ask you

659
00:35:41.960 --> 00:35:44.159
<v Speaker 2>both to be as quick as you can if possible,

660
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:45.360
<v Speaker 2>on this Doctor Gomi.

661
00:35:46.360 --> 00:35:49.599
<v Speaker 5>Yes, okay, So briefly, none of these five substances has

662
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:52.360
<v Speaker 5>been proven to prevent suicide, so the claim that they

663
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:56.599
<v Speaker 5>will help suicide again is a possibility but not known.

664
00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:00.679
<v Speaker 5>We need to stay with science, not science fiction. Darding addiction,

665
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:03.719
<v Speaker 5>the Gavin Foundation, which is a major substance abuse treatment

666
00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:07.519
<v Speaker 5>group in the state, opposes to this position this palate question,

667
00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:11.400
<v Speaker 5>and many addictions psychiatrists are concerned just because these subtances

668
00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:14.480
<v Speaker 5>are natural doesn't mean they're safe. Opium is natural too,

669
00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:17.119
<v Speaker 5>and obviously unhi addictive, and again a lot of people

670
00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:21.280
<v Speaker 5>say these drugs don't have physiological withdrawal symptoms, but neither

671
00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:24.000
<v Speaker 5>does cocaine, and yet it's still addictive. Addiction is a

672
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:28.119
<v Speaker 5>psychological abuse, a situation, and people do have that problem

673
00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:31.920
<v Speaker 5>with these substances. Actually, hallucinogen users about seventy percent of

674
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.719
<v Speaker 5>them use cocaine, fifty percent use opiates, versus only seven

675
00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:38.559
<v Speaker 5>percent of non hallucin gen users using cocaine opiates. So

676
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:41.239
<v Speaker 5>there is an association of these drugs. Even though people

677
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:44.079
<v Speaker 5>have talked about maybe they might be helpful for addictions,

678
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:46.760
<v Speaker 5>the actual evidence so far, again we're going by the

679
00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:50.000
<v Speaker 5>known harms, is that most people who use these subtances

680
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:53.719
<v Speaker 5>also use other substances of abuse, and in one study

681
00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:57.280
<v Speaker 5>there was a fivefold increased rate of heroin abuse in

682
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:01.480
<v Speaker 5>people who use hallucinogens. Again, all those links website, let me.

683
00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:04.000
<v Speaker 2>Get Emily in here. Real question. Well, it's a chance

684
00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:06.480
<v Speaker 2>at the cite websites too, by the way, go ahead, Emily.

685
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:07.320
<v Speaker 3>Yep.

686
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:10.000
<v Speaker 4>So no, this has been really big for the veteran community,

687
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:13.559
<v Speaker 4>and there are just to bring up there ur clinical

688
00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:18.000
<v Speaker 4>studies with psilocybin and PTSD, and you know, I've seen

689
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:21.840
<v Speaker 4>this personally helped so many veterans. That's there's a reason

690
00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:25.639
<v Speaker 4>that the VA is studying this and putting resources towards it.

691
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:29.679
<v Speaker 4>There's a reason that many leading institutions and researchers are

692
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:33.159
<v Speaker 4>focusing on veterans and doing this and a lot of these,

693
00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:36.199
<v Speaker 4>you know, all a lot of these substances have tremendous

694
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:41.760
<v Speaker 4>potential to help with substance abuse, right, you know, like specifically,

695
00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:44.480
<v Speaker 4>people go to these when they are struggling and have

696
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:46.679
<v Speaker 4>run out of other options. I know people personally within

697
00:37:46.719 --> 00:37:48.880
<v Speaker 4>the state that have turned to these as you know,

698
00:37:48.920 --> 00:37:51.960
<v Speaker 4>a last resort when dealing with opiate addiction and have

699
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:58.039
<v Speaker 4>had tremendous relief. So you know, there's there's a McLean

700
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:00.519
<v Speaker 4>psychiatrist that just wrote an op ed that really saying

701
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:02.760
<v Speaker 4>these are non addictive. You can find it on Psychedelic Alpha.

702
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:06.159
<v Speaker 4>There's there's a lot of folks doing a lot of

703
00:38:06.199 --> 00:38:09.880
<v Speaker 4>really profound research in this because they see it help people.

704
00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:12.760
<v Speaker 4>And so you know, to your to what you're saying

705
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:15.599
<v Speaker 4>about veterans, like you know, in my eyes and the

706
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:17.559
<v Speaker 4>eyes of the campaign and the supporters, like this is

707
00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:20.239
<v Speaker 4>the best thing we can do because what we currently

708
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:21.639
<v Speaker 4>have just isn't doing the job.

709
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:24.400
<v Speaker 5>All right, Thank you, Emily, can I say one brief thing,

710
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:26.119
<v Speaker 5>just one factual comment.

711
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:28.960
<v Speaker 2>You've got to be real, there.

712
00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:30.800
<v Speaker 5>Are there's not a single clinical study of psilocybin and

713
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:33.840
<v Speaker 5>PTSD and human beings. Yet people are talking about it,

714
00:38:33.880 --> 00:38:35.320
<v Speaker 5>but nothing's been done or published.

715
00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:38.119
<v Speaker 2>Okay, James, thank you for your call. I'm going to

716
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:42.239
<v Speaker 2>try to get one call in. Uh. Jack, you have

717
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:45.280
<v Speaker 2>about a minute. We're flat out at time. You can

718
00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:47.519
<v Speaker 2>ask a quick question. I'm going to ask for especially

719
00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:49.239
<v Speaker 2>quick responses ahead.

720
00:38:51.079 --> 00:38:54.000
<v Speaker 3>It was best to Emily I vote to you know

721
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:55.239
<v Speaker 3>for your position.

722
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:56.039
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

723
00:38:56.719 --> 00:38:59.239
<v Speaker 3>But and I did have a good trip when I

724
00:38:59.360 --> 00:39:03.360
<v Speaker 3>used tell us do it? But how would you make

725
00:39:03.400 --> 00:39:05.880
<v Speaker 3>sure that people don't have bad trips? So to speak?

726
00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:10.320
<v Speaker 2>Good question, Jack, Good question, Emilye. I need to really

727
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:13.480
<v Speaker 2>quick answer. I'm crunched on time. Thank you, Jock.

728
00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:16.119
<v Speaker 4>I'll be very quick. So what I say, you know,

729
00:39:16.199 --> 00:39:18.920
<v Speaker 4>with a bad trip, there's difficult trips, and a bad

730
00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:21.000
<v Speaker 4>trip is usually when you don't have support and you're

731
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:22.239
<v Speaker 4>not in the right set and you don't have the

732
00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:25.400
<v Speaker 4>right setting. And how you prevent that right is like

733
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:27.840
<v Speaker 4>the information is having the right people around you. It's

734
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:29.599
<v Speaker 4>having care if you need it, and knowing who to

735
00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:32.639
<v Speaker 4>reach out to for help. So my, you know the

736
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:36.400
<v Speaker 4>thing I could say that is public resource information and

737
00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:37.320
<v Speaker 4>a lot of education.

738
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:40.800
<v Speaker 2>Okay, collecting if you want to respond to that.

739
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:44.880
<v Speaker 5>Comment, yeah, my comment will be brief. That's exactly the

740
00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:47.519
<v Speaker 5>reason why we need to have psychiatrist, physicians and mental

741
00:39:47.559 --> 00:39:51.159
<v Speaker 5>health professionals selecting the people that should get these substances.

742
00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:54.639
<v Speaker 5>So that's how you avoid bad trips, and that's not

743
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:56.039
<v Speaker 5>what would happen with this ballad question.

744
00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:00.280
<v Speaker 2>Okay, it's been a great conversation. Thank you Jack for

745
00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:04.079
<v Speaker 2>your brief question. I really do appreciate the callers in

746
00:40:04.119 --> 00:40:06.599
<v Speaker 2>the line. I'm sorry I took the callers who called first.

747
00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:11.280
<v Speaker 2>For the callers in the line, I'd love to get

748
00:40:11.320 --> 00:40:14.760
<v Speaker 2>from both of you a website that people who haven't

749
00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:18.039
<v Speaker 2>voted and haven't made up their mind on this. Emily,

750
00:40:18.079 --> 00:40:21.039
<v Speaker 2>I'll start with you. Where can people go? Give me

751
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:23.519
<v Speaker 2>a website that they would be that they can get

752
00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:25.599
<v Speaker 2>the information that you would like them to see before

753
00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:26.039
<v Speaker 2>they vote.

754
00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:28.760
<v Speaker 4>Emmy fromntalhealth dot org.

755
00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:35.159
<v Speaker 2>Very for mental health dot org. Emily, thank you very much,

756
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:38.760
<v Speaker 2>doctor Gami. Where could people go, uh to get the

757
00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:41.239
<v Speaker 2>information you would like them to see if they don't

758
00:40:41.239 --> 00:40:43.280
<v Speaker 2>have a chance to listen to this.

759
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:47.719
<v Speaker 5>The Massachusetts psychiatri Society is a volunteer society. We have

760
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:50.039
<v Speaker 5>a position paper on our website, and I said, as

761
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:53.800
<v Speaker 5>I said, links to scientific studies. It's probably easiest just

762
00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:57.320
<v Speaker 5>to Google search the name Massachusetts Psychiatric Society will pop up.

763
00:40:57.599 --> 00:41:01.239
<v Speaker 5>But the official website for the no opposition to this

764
00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:04.760
<v Speaker 5>ballot question is the Coalition for Safe Communities, and I

765
00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:08.719
<v Speaker 5>just looked up their website at SAFECOMMUNITIESMA dot com.

766
00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:12.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, to both of you, I thank you. It's obviously

767
00:41:12.039 --> 00:41:14.559
<v Speaker 2>it's an emotional issue. I thank both of you for

768
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:20.559
<v Speaker 2>complying with my requests. I think it was edifying and

769
00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:24.400
<v Speaker 2>I wish you both best of luck on Tuesday. For

770
00:41:24.519 --> 00:41:28.239
<v Speaker 2>those who didn't get through, what you can do over

771
00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:30.960
<v Speaker 2>the weekend if you'd like is listen to this. I'm

772
00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:33.559
<v Speaker 2>hoping that Noel will get all of our hours posted

773
00:41:33.639 --> 00:41:36.960
<v Speaker 2>tonight at nightside on Demand dot com so you can

774
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:41.280
<v Speaker 2>listen to this hour. Emily, both you and doctor Gami.

775
00:41:41.320 --> 00:41:44.199
<v Speaker 2>Thank you both very much, and you folks are able

776
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:47.519
<v Speaker 2>to pull this down. This will hopefully be posted sometime

777
00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:50.440
<v Speaker 2>by early tomorrow morning meeting six o'clock in the morning

778
00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:53.400
<v Speaker 2>by our overnight staff, and you can pull it down

779
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:55.599
<v Speaker 2>and put it up on your websites and share the information.

780
00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:57.480
<v Speaker 2>And I want to thank both of you for conducting

781
00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:00.760
<v Speaker 2>yourselves as professionally and as polite as you did tonight.

782
00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:02.880
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much both, Thanks for having

783
00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:04.079
<v Speaker 4>Us appreciate it.