1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Thrilling Threads, the show where we take all 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,120 the tangled research they really obscure historical texts and you know, 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,640 the viral social chatter, and try to weave it into 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:15,359 one cohesive and hopefully mind bending conversation for you. I 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:17,440 want to start today by asking you to think about 6 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,879 something that is honestly a little bit terrifying, just put 7 00:00:21,879 --> 00:00:24,719 a little, just a little. What if mass belief didn't 8 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,199 just coordinate our behavior, you know, it doesn't just make 9 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,079 us all buy the same phone or vote for the 10 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,359 same person. What if it actually created something, something real, 11 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,479 something real. Is it possible that there's an invisible, maybe 12 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,600 even independent entity of wild thought form that gets born 13 00:00:39,759 --> 00:00:42,920 and then sustain when millions of us share an intense, 14 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:43,880 focused belief. 15 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 2: And we're talking about everything here. 16 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: Everything from a simple viral meme that just seems to 17 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,240 get a life of its own to something as huge 18 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,240 as the global financial system or even the very idea 19 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:54,240 of the country you live in. 20 00:00:54,399 --> 00:00:58,119 Speaker 2: That is the absolute core question driving our conversation today. 21 00:00:58,159 --> 00:01:00,640 We are going deep into the concept of the egg. 22 00:01:02,119 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: Even the word sounds weighty, it does. 23 00:01:05,079 --> 00:01:08,599 Speaker 2: And the word itself has this fascinating kind of contested history. 24 00:01:09,439 --> 00:01:13,159 It comes to us from the French igrigore, which goes 25 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,159 all the way back to the ancient Greek igoros, which 26 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,439 means it means wakeful or awake. 27 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: Okay, that's already interesting. 28 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 2: It really is. So in its most let's say generalized 29 00:01:23,519 --> 00:01:27,400 modern definition, and egrigor is a non physical entity, a 30 00:01:27,439 --> 00:01:31,000 thought form that comes into being from the collective thoughts 31 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:36,200 and critically, the intense emotions of a distinct group of people. 32 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,519 Speaker 1: So it's a group mind that takes on a life 33 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:39,079 of its own. 34 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 2: Well, that's where the philosophical split happens. That's the duality 35 00:01:41,879 --> 00:01:45,519 you mentioned. In say magical and occult traditions, it's often 36 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,879 seen as having a truly independent existence, almost like an 37 00:01:48,959 --> 00:01:51,920 artificial intelligence we create that then lives on its own 38 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:52,840 outside our heads. 39 00:01:52,959 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: Right, it exists onto logically in some non physical space. 40 00:01:56,159 --> 00:01:59,079 Speaker 2: It's a thing, exactly, it's a thing. But then you 41 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,640 get the philosophical counterpoint, which you find in certain other 42 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,120 esoteric schools. You have thinkers like Renee Greena who looked 43 00:02:05,159 --> 00:02:07,359 at it and said, no, it's just the collective psychic field. 44 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:08,919 He called it a collective entity. 45 00:02:09,159 --> 00:02:11,319 Speaker 1: Okay, so what's the difference there that sounds similar. 46 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 2: The difference is huge for Guenon, it's synonymous with the Eggregor, 47 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,759 but it's defined as being purely internal. It's psychological. It's 48 00:02:18,879 --> 00:02:22,199 just the non physical sum of its human parts. It 49 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:23,639 has no independent will. 50 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,759 Speaker 1: So it can't be anything more than us, just amplified precisely. 51 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,199 Speaker 2: And that distinction, you know, whether this entity is truly 52 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:37,199 autonomous or if it's just a profound collective consciousness. That's 53 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,400 the central tension we have to grapple with today. 54 00:02:39,479 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: Okay, so let's unpack this and sort of lay out 55 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,360 our mission here. We're going to be connecting these ancient 56 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,599 esoteric claims about Eggregor's and their smaller personal cousins called 57 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:54,680 toulpus right with some surprisingly modern and you know, measurable 58 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,240 cultural phenomena. We're talking about medics and the way ideas 59 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,719 go viral. We really want to understand how collective intention 60 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,520 might literally manifest reality. 61 00:03:03,039 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 2: And we've got the sources to do it. We have 62 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,080 the foundational history that the supposed to psychic physics of 63 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:09,240 how this energy gets. 64 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: Channeled psychic physics, I love that, and. 65 00:03:11,599 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 2: We also have detailed academic research. There's one particular study 66 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:21,639 on how memes became these essential collective coping mechanisms during crises. 67 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,759 Specifically looking at the COVID nineteen pandemic in Puerto Rico, it's. 68 00:03:25,599 --> 00:03:29,319 Speaker 1: An incredible collection of material. It really shows that whether 69 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,800 you want to call these things spirits or psychological constructs 70 00:03:33,159 --> 00:03:34,759 or just viral information. 71 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,479 Speaker 2: Packets, it doesn't really matter what you call them. 72 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: Right, they all seem to operate with this kind of 73 00:03:38,599 --> 00:03:43,680 self replicating, energetic force that has real world consequences. 74 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: A force that shapes our reality. 75 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning, then the historical usage, because 76 00:03:48,439 --> 00:03:51,520 from what I understand, the original meaning of eggregor is 77 00:03:51,599 --> 00:03:53,599 a million miles away from a group mind. 78 00:03:53,719 --> 00:03:56,599 Speaker 2: Oh completely. The word originally had nothing to do with 79 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,800 human creations. It referred to spiritual, independent and so not. 80 00:04:00,719 --> 00:04:02,759 Speaker 1: Something we make, but something we encounter. 81 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 2: That's a crucial starting point. Yes, when you trace the 82 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:10,240 word way back, especially into early religious and apocryphal texts 83 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,599 like the Book of Enoch, the term refers to these 84 00:04:12,599 --> 00:04:16,439 completely independent, pre existing angelic beings. They were known as 85 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:17,560 the Watchers. 86 00:04:17,399 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: The Watchers. That sounds ominous. 87 00:04:19,959 --> 00:04:22,959 Speaker 2: Well. According to the tradition, these watchers descended to Earth, 88 00:04:23,199 --> 00:04:26,439 they intermarried with humans and they taught forbidden knowledge. They 89 00:04:26,439 --> 00:04:30,199 were spiritual entities that already had their own powerful, non 90 00:04:30,319 --> 00:04:34,439 human agency. So in that original context, aggregres were not 91 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,079 created by humans in any way. 92 00:04:36,319 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 1: So centuries ago, the word wasn't about creation at all. 93 00:04:39,199 --> 00:04:45,079 It was about observance and power. And I guess external influence, 94 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,040 the wakeful meaning really hits home there. They were always watching, 95 00:04:49,079 --> 00:04:50,000 always intervening. 96 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,399 Speaker 2: It really does in that original sense, you know, these 97 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,040 powerful spiritually aware beings. It persisted for a long time. 98 00:04:56,199 --> 00:04:59,439 For example, you have the traditionalist philosopher Julius Ivola, who 99 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,639 was deeply invested in spiritual heritage. He is the Greek 100 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,120 term ego the wakeful ones to refer to a sort 101 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,560 of elite group of spiritually aware people, an elite. Yes, 102 00:05:09,759 --> 00:05:13,160 he suggested this elite was responsible for maintaining essential ancient 103 00:05:13,199 --> 00:05:15,360 traditions in the modern world. It was a very clear 104 00:05:15,439 --> 00:05:18,800 callback an allusion to those original transcendent watchers. 105 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,879 Speaker 1: Okay, and this is where the big conceptual shift happens, right, 106 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:23,920 This is the fork in the road, moving from these 107 00:05:23,959 --> 00:05:29,279 transcendent external beings to something while something inside our own heads. 108 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 2: This is the sharp divergence. Precisely, we go from Vola's 109 00:05:33,319 --> 00:05:37,519 wakeful elite who are preserving these ancient external truths to 110 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,120 thinkers like Rene guanand who just completely stripped the concept 111 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:42,360 of its supernatural power. 112 00:05:42,399 --> 00:05:43,639 Speaker 1: The guy you mentioned earlier, the. 113 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 2: Very same Gwinnon, adopted the term collective entity, and for him, 114 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,199 the collective in its psychic aspect, is nothing more than 115 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,519 a projection and extension of the individual. This collective entity, therefore, 116 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,959 has nothing transcendent about it. It cannot be an independent 117 00:06:00,079 --> 00:06:03,480 spiritual agent. It's purely internal, purely psychological. 118 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,959 Speaker 1: So if the Avola and the let's say occult views 119 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,439 suggests we're dealing with a potentially autonomous maybe even an 120 00:06:11,519 --> 00:06:15,399 artificial intelligence, the Guenon view is much more comforting. 121 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:16,399 Speaker 2: It is much more comforting. 122 00:06:16,439 --> 00:06:19,759 Speaker 1: We're only ever dealing with a collective mood, a shared neurosis, 123 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:21,439 or just a social phenomenon. 124 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,199 Speaker 2: That's the core conflict right there. If we take Brena's view, 125 00:06:25,399 --> 00:06:27,480 the eggrigor can never be more than the sum of 126 00:06:27,519 --> 00:06:30,360 its parts. It has no will of its own, separate 127 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:31,680 for the group that creates. 128 00:06:31,319 --> 00:06:32,399 Speaker 1: It the other view. 129 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 2: But if we take the occult view, the eggrigor, once 130 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:40,240 it's born, possesses this This terrifying will towards self preservation, 131 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,199 a will that might directly conflict with the best interests 132 00:06:43,199 --> 00:06:44,160 of its own creators. 133 00:06:44,399 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: That sets the scale perfectly. So to understand how one 134 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,600 of these colossal eggrigors is built, we have to zoom 135 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,639 way in. We need to look at its basic building block, 136 00:06:55,199 --> 00:06:56,639 the individual thought form. 137 00:06:56,879 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: Yes, the basic unit. The thing that's often dismissed is 138 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,160 just you know, fantasy or imagination. But our source material, 139 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,959 drawing from these esoteric traditions, it posits a very specific 140 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:08,120 energetic mechanism. 141 00:07:08,199 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: It's not just thinking really hard. 142 00:07:09,759 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 2: No, it's more than that. The idea is if a 143 00:07:11,959 --> 00:07:15,439 thought is clear, distinct and strong, and if it's consistently 144 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,639 sustained by focus, and this is the most critical part, 145 00:07:18,879 --> 00:07:22,240 if it is closed with intense emotion, then it can 146 00:07:22,279 --> 00:07:24,279 take on a life of its own as a thought form. 147 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: Okay, closed with intense emotion. Why is that part the 148 00:07:27,759 --> 00:07:29,160 clothing so important? 149 00:07:29,519 --> 00:07:33,439 Speaker 2: Because the emotion provides the prana, the life force. A 150 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:38,040 simple rational thought is just too diffuse. It doesn't have 151 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,199 enough energy. But a thought is charged with fervent hope 152 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,480 or consuming ambition, or deep fear or passionate hatred that 153 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,000 emotional intensity generates what are described as strong vibrations. 154 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,439 Speaker 1: And these vibrations do what they. 155 00:07:51,279 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 2: Condense the thought. They give it a distinct, almost semi 156 00:07:54,199 --> 00:07:58,399 material form within the non physical realm. It effectively gives 157 00:07:58,439 --> 00:08:00,079 the abstract idea a bot. 158 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,759 Speaker 1: So sustain High intensity emotion is what moves an idea 159 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,879 from being just this fleeting thing to being energetically tangible exactly, and. 160 00:08:09,879 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 2: The most intense personal version of that is what's known 161 00:08:12,279 --> 00:08:14,959 as the tulpa. The tulpa, now, the concept originally comes 162 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,160 from Tibetan Buddhism, where a highly enlightened Buddha might manifest 163 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,800 a physical emanation of themselves to go out and help others. 164 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:22,800 That's usually a positive concept. 165 00:08:22,439 --> 00:08:23,319 Speaker 1: But it got adapted. 166 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Western occultists often adapted the idea to describe 167 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,079 a conscious being that's emanated by a single person's heavy 168 00:08:30,079 --> 00:08:34,600 concentration and dynamic will, and sometimes the results are yeah. 169 00:08:34,759 --> 00:08:38,399 Speaker 1: And the scary part is that these tulpas can become autonomous, 170 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,879 right and austin, they can become destructive to the person 171 00:08:40,879 --> 00:08:43,440 who made them. It's like you're creating a conscious alter 172 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,240 ego and then you completely lose the ability to tell 173 00:08:46,279 --> 00:08:46,919 it what to do. 174 00:08:47,159 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 2: It is the ultimate expression of say, self betrayal or 175 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,879 self obsession gaining independence. You actually see this dynamic explored 176 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,879 beautifully in fiction, even when the writers aren't explicitly trying 177 00:08:58,919 --> 00:09:00,600 to talk about occultism. 178 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:00,279 Speaker 1: Yeah. 179 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: The source material points to the fictional version of the 180 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,120 composer Antonio Salieri in the film Amadeus. 181 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,799 Speaker 1: Oh, that's a perfect example of chilling dissection of the 182 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,679 tulpa concept. Salary is this great, devout composer, but he's 183 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:17,039 just consumed by frustration and jealousy over Mozart's effortless god 184 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:18,039 given genius. 185 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,639 Speaker 2: His professional envy has tried his rage at God. It's 186 00:09:21,639 --> 00:09:25,399 so immense that achieves a form of materialization. Salary effectively 187 00:09:25,399 --> 00:09:28,960 severs himself from the broader Christian Eggregor, the collective God 188 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,399 of his time and place. He rejects it, he does, 189 00:09:32,039 --> 00:09:35,600 and instead, through the sheer, raw concentration of his repressed 190 00:09:35,639 --> 00:09:39,000 ambition and hatred, he creates a wicked doppelganger of God. 191 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,240 This new entity is a tulpa. It's a pure thought 192 00:09:42,279 --> 00:09:44,320 form built from his personal torment. 193 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: And the power of that tulpa gets confirmed for him 194 00:09:46,799 --> 00:09:50,600 when his own father's death is retroactively attributed to his pact. 195 00:09:50,639 --> 00:09:54,639 With this dark reflection that seals the deal. He's convinced 196 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,919 of its power, which of course just feeds its autonomy even. 197 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 2: More precisely, whether he channeled lover hatred, that focused attention 198 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,480 was the fuel. The tulpa built from such raw, focused 199 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,440 negative energy eventually becomes autonomous, and it torments him relentlessly 200 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:11,399 for the rest of his life. 201 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: It's a mirror he can't look away from. 202 00:10:13,039 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 2: He can't His inability to abandon it comes from the 203 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,919 fact that the tulpa perfectly reflects the cold mockery, the 204 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,519 deep sense of inadequacy, and the self hatred that's already 205 00:10:21,519 --> 00:10:24,399 in his own heart, and eventually it dictates his actions. 206 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,120 This shows how one person's focused emotional output can create 207 00:10:28,159 --> 00:10:31,759 a distinct, powerful entity, separate from the wider collective, the 208 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:33,360 smallest unit of an eggrigor. 209 00:10:33,799 --> 00:10:36,639 Speaker 1: That's a genuinely terrifying idea, the thought that your most 210 00:10:36,639 --> 00:10:40,039 repressed self hatred could gain autonomy and just start tormenting you. 211 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,039 It gives a whole new meaning to the idea of 212 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:44,440 self sabotage, doesn't it. 213 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 2: It certainly does. 214 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: Okay, So we start with the individual thought form the tulpa. 215 00:10:48,879 --> 00:10:50,840 Now let's scale that up. Let's get to the group 216 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,759 level and explore the actual architecture, the creation of a 217 00:10:54,799 --> 00:10:56,000 full blown eggregre. 218 00:10:56,279 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 2: So the creation process. It's all about energy, and in 219 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:04,240 this context, that energy is consistently and intensely focused human attention, 220 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,679 which is then amplified by emotion. That's the prana. 221 00:11:07,879 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: So walk me through the proposed psychic physics of this. 222 00:11:10,279 --> 00:11:13,480 How does this energetic thing actually condense into existence? It 223 00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:18,039 sounds like we'removing from philosophy into a kind of occult engineering. 224 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: It is absolutely described as a process of engineering. An 225 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,120 individual thought form, like we just discuss, generate strong vibrations 226 00:11:24,159 --> 00:11:26,480 in the body of the aura. Now, if this vibration 227 00:11:26,639 --> 00:11:30,440 is repeated and intensified by emotion, it begins to condense. 228 00:11:30,919 --> 00:11:34,039 It forms a whirling center of thought force, a vortex, 229 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,840 a kind of vortex. Yes. This center then attracts and 230 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,759 is surrounded by what's called cohesive or substance, which is 231 00:11:41,799 --> 00:11:44,240 then charged with the life force with the prana. 232 00:11:44,399 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: Okay, that's one person. What happens when you get. 233 00:11:46,519 --> 00:11:49,759 Speaker 2: A group, when many people of like mind join this process, 234 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,600 all focusing their prana and emotions on the very same concept. 235 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,000 The individual psychic fields start to overlap, the collective field 236 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,559 gets amplified, It gets reinforced by the group act activity. 237 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,600 Each person's input strengthens and clarifies the form, So. 238 00:12:04,639 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: The egrigorre's vitality, its strength. It all hinges on how 239 00:12:07,919 --> 00:12:10,279 frequently and consistently people are focusing on it. 240 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,879 Speaker 2: Yes, the analogy of repeatedly drawing the contours of a 241 00:12:13,879 --> 00:12:17,720 blueprint's perfect. The structure is a haphazard. It's a planned 242 00:12:17,919 --> 00:12:22,000 structural process that requires consistency and focus from everyone involved. 243 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: How do you ensure that thousands or even millions of 244 00:12:25,039 --> 00:12:27,639 individual people are all focusing their energy on the exact 245 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,919 same concept. That seems impossible. This is where ritual comes in, right, 246 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:31,960 That's exactly. 247 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 2: Where it comes in. Rituals and ceremonies are perhaps the 248 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,519 most effective, most sophisticated mechanisms ever designed for synchronizing the 249 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,279 emotional and mental output of a group. 250 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: So this could be anything freemasonry, organized religious ceremonies, high. 251 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,919 Speaker 2: Level political rallies, corporate team building events. They are all 252 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,159 consciously or not designed to channel psychic energy efficiently to 253 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,159 construct and maintain an eggregre. 254 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: The synchronization is the key. Then it ensures that those 255 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,559 thousands of individual inputs of krana don't just scatter into 256 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,440 diffuse chaotic thought, but that they converge on one defined 257 00:13:05,639 --> 00:13:07,559 crystalline form precisely. 258 00:13:07,919 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 2: And physical rituals are designed to affect the participant on 259 00:13:10,759 --> 00:13:14,200 multiple levels at the same time. The sources they detail 260 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,720 the goal of affecting the triple form of the human being. 261 00:13:16,799 --> 00:13:21,159 The triple form the physical body through specific postures, breathing techniques, 262 00:13:21,799 --> 00:13:25,840 the emotional or astral body through music, chanting shared fervor, 263 00:13:26,159 --> 00:13:29,000 and the mental body through specific symbols and repeated phrases 264 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,159 or mantras. These actions are intended to attract non physical entities, 265 00:13:33,279 --> 00:13:37,200 including eggrigors, by making the participants better psychic conduits. 266 00:13:37,399 --> 00:13:39,799 Speaker 1: It sounds like a process of tuning the human body 267 00:13:39,879 --> 00:13:42,639 like a broadcast antenna to a specific frequency. 268 00:13:42,799 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it. The ultimate goal 269 00:13:45,159 --> 00:13:48,039 of many of these initiation rituals is to induce a 270 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:49,399 state of nosis. 271 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: Nosis We usually translate that as. 272 00:13:51,759 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: Just knowledge, right, but esoterically it means something much more specific. 273 00:13:55,879 --> 00:13:58,600 It refers to direct knowledge and experience of the divine. 274 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,360 What it really means is achieving an altered state of consciousness, 275 00:14:02,799 --> 00:14:06,440 one that bypasses the rational skeptical mind. Why is that 276 00:14:06,519 --> 00:14:10,559 important because in that state, the individual is highly receptive 277 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,360 to specific, intended psychological and spiritual changes. 278 00:14:14,639 --> 00:14:17,519 Speaker 1: So the ceremony isn't just symbolic window dressing. It's a 279 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,240 practice intended to shift the individual into a state where 280 00:14:20,279 --> 00:14:24,360 the collective intent the eggregre can be transmitted directly to them, 281 00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:26,240 often without their rational consent. 282 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 2: Correct the unified group work combined with this synchronized intent 283 00:14:30,519 --> 00:14:34,000 and precise ritual activity, it brings the eggregore into play. 284 00:14:34,279 --> 00:14:37,279 The candidate, now in this receptive state, can be directly 285 00:14:37,279 --> 00:14:40,039 affected by the eggregore working through the group members and 286 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:41,519 the shared energetic field. 287 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,919 Speaker 1: So that's why these traditions always emphasize group protection for 288 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:45,600 new members. 289 00:14:45,879 --> 00:14:49,679 Speaker 2: It is dealing with these non physical entities. Without a 290 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:55,159 stable collective field to ground, you can be psychologically destabilizing, 291 00:14:55,519 --> 00:14:56,120 to say the least. 292 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,639 Speaker 1: Okay, now we have to move to the really disturbing 293 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,759 phase of the eggregor's life cycle, the parasitic loop. If 294 00:15:02,879 --> 00:15:06,159 the group is constantly nourishing this entity with this highly 295 00:15:06,159 --> 00:15:09,320 focused energy, what happens when it gets too hungry? 296 00:15:09,799 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: Once a thought form is sufficiently charged up with mental 297 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,679 force and praana, it reaches a kind of tipping point. 298 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,159 The sources say, it can be thrown off from the 299 00:15:18,159 --> 00:15:21,480 group's aura and maintain an almost independent existence. 300 00:15:21,559 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: And that's a loop. 301 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,159 Speaker 2: This shift is the basis of the parasitic loop. The 302 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,200 created entity it acquires personal traits, a character, and significant 303 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,240 power of its own, and then it subsequently begins influencing 304 00:15:33,279 --> 00:15:35,240 and actively directing its creators. 305 00:15:35,519 --> 00:15:37,799 Speaker 1: But wait, if the energy can be positive or negative, 306 00:15:37,799 --> 00:15:41,639 why would the system necessarily become parasitic or destructive. Wouldn't 307 00:15:41,639 --> 00:15:45,639 a powerful eggrigre of, say, collective happiness be just as sustainable. 308 00:15:45,879 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 2: That's a really critical question. The sources suggest that while 309 00:15:49,159 --> 00:15:52,879 positive aggrigors can and do exist like a collective spiritual 310 00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:56,879 ideal of peace or compassion, the parasitic quality emerges when 311 00:15:56,879 --> 00:16:00,600 the entity starts to prioritize its own survival above the 312 00:16:00,639 --> 00:16:03,759 well being of its creators. Okay, and as we're about 313 00:16:03,799 --> 00:16:07,960 to discuss, conflict and negative emotions generate the highest intensity 314 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,600 and the most reliable fuel, So an eggregore that is 315 00:16:11,679 --> 00:16:17,039 seeking self preservation will often gravitate toward maximizing that high intensity, 316 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,120 negative input. It's just more efficient for it. 317 00:16:19,159 --> 00:16:22,399 Speaker 1: The table's turn. The creative now commands the creators, and 318 00:16:22,399 --> 00:16:24,559 often they don't even know what's happening. You give the 319 00:16:24,559 --> 00:16:28,600 eggergre your awareness, your attention, and you're effectively including yourself 320 00:16:28,639 --> 00:16:30,080 in its sphere of control. 321 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,399 Speaker 2: And this autonomy, this shift, It explains some major historical divergences. 322 00:16:34,519 --> 00:16:38,879 Think about religious founders after they die, the influence of 323 00:16:38,919 --> 00:16:43,440 the real person, their original nuanced message, it disappears. The 324 00:16:43,519 --> 00:16:46,480 eggregore then develops further based on the hopes, the fears, 325 00:16:46,519 --> 00:16:48,279 and the beliefs of the crowds who are now feeding it. 326 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,639 Speaker 1: So it becomes defined by the collective awareness. 327 00:16:50,759 --> 00:16:53,759 Speaker 2: Yes, and it often morphs into something entirely different from 328 00:16:53,799 --> 00:16:56,759 the original personality or the original spiritual message. 329 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: It becomes an interpretation of an interpretation, just solidify by 330 00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:04,640 collective psychic energy. This whole system of creation and control. 331 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,240 It really does sound like it needs conflict to survive. 332 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,559 Speaker 2: It does, and this is where the implications get very 333 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:15,440 very dark. Conflict and opposition are frequently identified as essential 334 00:17:15,519 --> 00:17:19,680 survival mechanisms for the aggregor. If the most harvestable energy 335 00:17:19,759 --> 00:17:25,000 is negative fear, anger, outrage, partisanship, then the entity will 336 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,640 actively cultivate environments that maximize this input. 337 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: Which is why these supremely powerful aggregors so often come in. 338 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 2: Pairs exactly, their conflict feeds both entities. 339 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: It's a psychic economy of polarization. The more divided we are, 340 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,279 the more outraged we are. The stronger these systems become 341 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,319 because they are sustained by the very intensity of that friction. 342 00:17:44,519 --> 00:17:45,079 Speaker 2: That's the loop. 343 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,039 Speaker 1: So if the aggregre is this ancient concept of collective manifestation, 344 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:54,839 then the meme is its modern, hyper accelerated, self replicating evolution. 345 00:17:55,519 --> 00:17:58,480 The speed of the modern world has just fundamentally changed 346 00:17:58,519 --> 00:18:01,079 the life cycle of these thoughts absolutely. 347 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:06,519 Speaker 2: The transition from say, a slow gestating religious eggrigre, which 348 00:18:06,599 --> 00:18:11,039 might have taken centuries to build, to an instantaneous viral meme, 349 00:18:11,519 --> 00:18:15,599 it just demonstrates the massive acceleration of cultural evolution. Let's 350 00:18:15,599 --> 00:18:19,160 ground this in the academic definition first, though, Richard Dawkins 351 00:18:19,319 --> 00:18:21,519 he coined the term meme back in nineteen seventy six 352 00:18:21,559 --> 00:18:24,359 in his book The Selfish Gene. He modeled it directly 353 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:25,000 on the gene. 354 00:18:25,039 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: So a gene is a unit of biological information replication 355 00:18:28,319 --> 00:18:30,119 the meme is the cultural equivalent of that. 356 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 2: Correct, a meme is in essence, a self replicating unit 357 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,240 of cultural transmission or imitation. Dawkins gave examples like melodies, 358 00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:40,279 popular phrases, fashions, or even just the technology of how 359 00:18:40,279 --> 00:18:41,079 to build a better. 360 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: Arch, things that spread from person to person. 361 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,079 Speaker 2: Yes, contigious patterns of cultural information that replicate through imitation, 362 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:53,519 and they respond to selective pressures just like genes do furiation, mutation, competition, 363 00:18:53,839 --> 00:18:57,680 and critically, their survival is based entirely on the behavior 364 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,400 they generate in their human hosts. 365 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,759 Speaker 1: In us and this is where the esoteric and the 366 00:19:01,799 --> 00:19:06,640 academic definitions become well functionally identical. If an eggregore is 367 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,680 a thought form that's sustained by mental energy, then a 368 00:19:09,759 --> 00:19:13,400 meme is by definition a digital thought form sustained by 369 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:14,400 our collective attention. 370 00:19:14,559 --> 00:19:17,519 Speaker 2: From the occult perspective, a meme is explicitly considered a 371 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,160 wild thought form, and that word wild is really important. 372 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,680 It means it's an uncontrolled, spontaneous eggregor It lacks the focus, 373 00:19:25,759 --> 00:19:30,680 directed intent of a long standing religious order or some initiatory. 374 00:19:30,039 --> 00:19:32,279 Speaker 1: Right, so its survival is purely a numbers game. 375 00:19:32,519 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 2: It's entirely contingent on the constant supply of mental energy 376 00:19:35,759 --> 00:19:37,880 from those who use it and propagate it. Every click, 377 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,359 every share, every comment is a little bit of promise. 378 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,319 Speaker 1: So if the mental energy declines, the meme weakens and 379 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:48,640 eventually goes extinct. It's literally natural selection applied to psychic entities. 380 00:19:49,079 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 2: It is, and the modern Internet infrastructure has become the 381 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,519 perfect boundless environment for these entities to thrive. 382 00:19:55,279 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: In the ideal host. 383 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 2: The global Internet acts as this highly efficient, non biological 384 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,400 host for these digital eggregors. Concepts can now inhabit the 385 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,839 neurological networks of the global Internet, which allows for exponential growth. 386 00:20:10,599 --> 00:20:13,559 This digital realm is a crucible for the rapid formation 387 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,359 of public opinion, of cultural trends and shared values. It 388 00:20:17,519 --> 00:20:20,920 accelerates the shaping of the collective psyche on a massive scale. 389 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,279 Speaker 1: So the slow gestation of an ancient agrigore, which might 390 00:20:24,319 --> 00:20:28,200 have taken generations of concentrated focus and physical ritual, is. 391 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 2: Now compressed into hours or minutes. 392 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:30,839 Speaker 1: Wow. 393 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 2: Think about the eggregore related to some volatile trending hashtag 394 00:20:34,319 --> 00:20:38,039 or particular piece of political outrage. It forms incredibly quickly. 395 00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:41,920 It gains vast power and influence worldwide almost instantly, and 396 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,680 it can redirect the attention and the emotional praana of 397 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:45,920 billions of people. 398 00:20:45,759 --> 00:20:48,559 Speaker 1: In an afternoon, and the technology just keeps getting faster. 399 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 2: The rapid shifts in technology ensure this momentum continues. It 400 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,119 allows these eggregors to be formed and fed digitally with 401 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,119 just as much power, if not more, than the traditional 402 00:20:59,160 --> 00:20:59,960 methods ever could. 403 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: And what's truly unsettling here is when the operational mechanism 404 00:21:04,039 --> 00:21:08,480 of this mimetic eggregre is understood and then consciously appropriated 405 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,960 by political actors, it proves there's a deliberate strategy to 406 00:21:12,079 --> 00:21:15,359 exploit these collective thought forms for ideological ends. 407 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,039 Speaker 2: Well, the source material notes the example of how certain 408 00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:21,839 actors consciously appropriated the Peppe meme. What began is a 409 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:26,079 pretty harmless, slightly melancholic internet cartoon, I remember that. 410 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:26,519 Speaker 1: Yeah. 411 00:21:26,559 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 2: It was charged by concentrated effort, through veiled symbolism, through 412 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,920 ironic rhetoric and specific narrative placement. It was charged with 413 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,599 high intensity, focused and often very negative intent, including racist 414 00:21:38,599 --> 00:21:40,319 and anti Semitic sentiments. 415 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: So the meme itself became the perfectly designed psychic vehicle. 416 00:21:43,559 --> 00:21:46,240 It had the visual appeal to grab your attention, and 417 00:21:46,279 --> 00:21:48,799 it had enough ambiguity to allow people to invest their 418 00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:52,000 own high intensity emotions into it, whether that was ironic 419 00:21:52,039 --> 00:21:56,079 detachment or genuine raw hatred exactly. 420 00:21:55,799 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 2: And the successful weaponization of it led to its eventual 421 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,720 designation as AM the occultists they recognize the entity. The 422 00:22:02,759 --> 00:22:06,200 political actors figured out how to manipulate and deploy this 423 00:22:06,319 --> 00:22:10,519 emerging wild thought form for rapid ideological mobilization. 424 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: It's a practical and frankly disturbing application of understanding memes 425 00:22:15,039 --> 00:22:17,880 as these collective, self replicating entities. 426 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,839 Speaker 2: They are, in essence, digitally constructed pulpas that have been 427 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:23,960 scaled up to the level of an eggregore. 428 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: This is where the conversation moves out of the esoteric 429 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,640 and entirely into social science. But it still provides this 430 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,440 profound empirical model for the exact dynamics of eggregore creation 431 00:22:35,559 --> 00:22:39,400 and dissipation, especially during times of extreme collective stress. 432 00:22:39,519 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 2: Yes, we have this detailed study on the use of 433 00:22:41,519 --> 00:22:44,319 memes in Puerto Rico during the COVID nineteen crisis, and 434 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,160 it was analyzed through the lens of something called the 435 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:47,680 collective coping theory. 436 00:22:47,519 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: And this study was published in PMC PubMed Central. It 437 00:22:50,559 --> 00:22:53,880 just grounds this entire conversation. It shows a collective interpretation. 438 00:22:54,039 --> 00:22:57,440 The very fuel of an eggregore shifts in measurable stages 439 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:58,640 when people are under pressure. 440 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,519 Speaker 2: The core finding is that memes, particularly those that leverage 441 00:23:02,599 --> 00:23:05,920 humor and irony, they become a decisive mechanism for people 442 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,400 to reinterpret stressful social events. They operate as a measured 443 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,559 form of collective coping to mitigate the negative psychological effects. 444 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,559 Speaker 1: So collective coping isn't just random panic. 445 00:23:17,319 --> 00:23:19,839 Speaker 2: No, not at all. It consists of learned and uniform 446 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:24,519 responses that a culture manifests to either eliminate a stressor or, 447 00:23:24,599 --> 00:23:28,640 more commonly, to change the collective interpretation of that stressful situation. 448 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: So when reality becomes overwhelming, the collective mind builds a 449 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,400 psychological construct, a temporary egg grigor to process and reduce 450 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,200 the fear and the anxiety. Okay, let's walk through the 451 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,759 four distinct stages of this coping theory that the study validated. 452 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 2: It begins with the first stage awareness. This is the 453 00:23:46,039 --> 00:23:49,440 initial exposure to the crisis messages, and it typically comes 454 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,000 from traditional media, TV, official press releases, public health warnings, 455 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,720 and so on. The study confirmed its first hypothesis. Media 456 00:23:56,759 --> 00:24:00,119 exposure created awareness of the crisis, which then prompted the 457 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:01,200 observation of memes. 458 00:24:01,559 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 1: But the crucial finding here wasn't just that people saw 459 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,839 the news. It was about how they perceived the news. 460 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,519 It was about the traditional media's effectiveness, or really its 461 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:11,400 lack thereof. 462 00:24:11,799 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 2: Absolutely, the traditional media messages were often perceived as exaggerated, chaotic, 463 00:24:17,519 --> 00:24:20,319 or just simply unbelievable. This is what's known as the 464 00:24:20,319 --> 00:24:21,599 sleeping effect phenomenon. 465 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: The sleeping effect. 466 00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:26,559 Speaker 2: It's where people initially reject information because it's too sensationalized, 467 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,599 where it's too alarming to process. The results showed that 468 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,720 people in Puerto Rico interpreted the official media messages as 469 00:24:32,799 --> 00:24:36,359 exaggerated and as failing to provide pragmatic answers on how 470 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,400 to effectively face the crisis, and that just contributed to 471 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,079 anguish and it upset the public. 472 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,759 Speaker 1: Ah. So, the failure of the official rational narrative created 473 00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:48,400 the psychic void that the aggrigora the meme rushes into. 474 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 2: Fill precisely, and that leads us directly into stage two divergence. 475 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,319 The virgins is defined by the degree of novelty that 476 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,559 transcends existing knowledge. Since the traditional media failed to provide 477 00:25:01,559 --> 00:25:06,039 a plausible, emotionally manageable reality, memes stepped in. They captured 478 00:25:06,079 --> 00:25:10,079 aspects of reality through singularization, treating the event as new, fresh, 479 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,519 and manageable, and crucially, they injected humor to reduce the 480 00:25:13,519 --> 00:25:14,359 collective stress. 481 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: How does humor function as a psychic buffer in a 482 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:18,200 situation like. 483 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,559 Speaker 2: That, Well, it transforms the raw emotional energy that intense 484 00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:26,200 fear and prana generated by the crisis into a controlled, 485 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,799 palatable format. It allows people to cognitively distance themselves from 486 00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:34,079 the aversive situation. It shifts them toward a more positive 487 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,160 or at least a more neutral, emotional state. The divergent 488 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,240 stage is all about creating an impressive, high impact image 489 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,480 that attracts attention and provides an alternative, lighter interpretation of events. 490 00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: And once that divergence establishes this new, humorous and relatable interpretation, 491 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,039 that interpretation has to become the majority view. This must 492 00:25:52,079 --> 00:25:53,640 be convergence. The third stage. 493 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,839 Speaker 2: Convergence is exactly that. It refers to the fact that 494 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,920 some of the messages interpretations are adopted by the majority, 495 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,960 while other interpretations are abandoned. The study strongly supported its 496 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,000 third hypothesis. The interpretation of the crisis that was transmitted 497 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,480 by the observation of memes converged with the social interpretation 498 00:26:11,559 --> 00:26:12,279 of the majority. 499 00:26:12,519 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: The memes became the agreed upon collective truth about the 500 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:17,480 experience of the crisis. 501 00:26:17,599 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 2: They did. Memes were absolutely vital here. They created plausible 502 00:26:21,799 --> 00:26:26,640 collective identities through shared norms and values, often by establishing 503 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:31,720 socio political humor and counteracting the oversimplified, distant problems that 504 00:26:31,799 --> 00:26:34,680 were being presented by the official media. They were the 505 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,799 interpretive link that fostered a collective understanding and a shared 506 00:26:37,839 --> 00:26:41,599 experience for the majority. They essentially built a functional, temporary 507 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,160 eggregore of collective. 508 00:26:42,759 --> 00:26:47,799 Speaker 1: Sanity, and finally, stage four normalization. The eggrigre, having served 509 00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:50,720 its purpose of helping everyone cope, begins to dissipate. 510 00:26:51,039 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 2: Normalization reflects the adaptation stage where coping in response become 511 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,640 less emotional. The final hypothesis was also supported. The use 512 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,119 of memes to face these stressful emotional experiences lost its 513 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:04,480 prevalence over time. 514 00:27:04,759 --> 00:27:07,279 Speaker 1: So once the collective adapted and people gained a feeling 515 00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:08,480 of control. 516 00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:11,079 Speaker 2: The relationship between the crisis and the need for the 517 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,079 mean weakened. The aggrigor begins to starve and it dissolves. 518 00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:19,279 It confirms the entire life cycle described in the esoteric texts, 519 00:27:19,559 --> 00:27:20,720 but with empirical data. 520 00:27:21,079 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: That is a profound connection the collective psychological coping mechanism 521 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,599 creating a shared emotionally charged interpretation to mitigate a stressor. 522 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,240 It perfectly maps onto the theory of creating and sustaining 523 00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:36,920 a collective thought form to manage a chaotic external reality. 524 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,920 The study takes this abstract theory and gives it a 525 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,759 measurable life cycle. It proves the existence of these collective entities, 526 00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:46,799 even if we only accept the purely psychological definition. 527 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely so, Now that we've established the dynamics of the 528 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,640 fast forming digital aggregor, we can zoom back out way 529 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,799 out to the colossal systemic eggregors, the structures that shape 530 00:27:56,799 --> 00:27:57,839 civilization itself. 531 00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:58,839 Speaker 1: These are the big ones. 532 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,279 Speaker 2: These are entities that have been built over generations, charged 533 00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:06,839 with deeply validated, accumulated psychic energy. They are the frameworks 534 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,519 we live within, often without ever questioning their fundamental nature. 535 00:28:10,599 --> 00:28:12,759 Speaker 1: And these are the ones that demand our allegiance and 536 00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:17,160 our constant energetic input, often in ways we don't even recognize. 537 00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:21,160 Let's start with the one that dictates loyalty and identity 538 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,480 for so many, the nation state. 539 00:28:24,279 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 2: The nation state is described in our sources as a colossal, 540 00:28:27,839 --> 00:28:32,799 hyper powerful eggregre. It functions as an imagined community. Its 541 00:28:32,839 --> 00:28:36,680 operational reality depends entirely on the collective trust and adherence 542 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:37,759 to its myths. 543 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,559 Speaker 1: Its symbols, the flag, the anthem exactly, and. 544 00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: Its legal frameworks. It's sustained by the performance of collective 545 00:28:44,079 --> 00:28:47,000 narratives what some historians call the invention of tradition, that 546 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,559 justify its continued existence and its superiority over other nations. 547 00:28:50,839 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: The contrast between the physical and the abstract is so 548 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,200 key here. I mean, a nation has physical borders, it 549 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,160 has buildings, it has roads, But the eggregor is the 550 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,359 abstract real. It's the collective mythos of history, justice, of 551 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,799 identity that fills the gap between you as an individual 552 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,440 and the billions of strangers you call compatriots. 553 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,799 Speaker 2: That's the exact space the eggergre fills. Yeah, and the 554 00:29:12,839 --> 00:29:15,720 sources suggest that the reason these systems are so incredibly 555 00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:19,880 resistant to change, why political or systemic shifts are so difficult, 556 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,599 is precisely because of this energetic foundation. 557 00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: You're not just battling a policy, you're battling a psychic 558 00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:28,160 leviathan with centuries of inertia behind it. 559 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 2: Exactly right, Changing the direction of a nation involves combating 560 00:29:31,519 --> 00:29:35,440 not just outdated policies or laws, but an ancient, autonomous 561 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:40,640 eggregre whose self preservation mechanisms are deeply, deeply entrenched. The 562 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,880 system has profound institutional inertia because it's built on layers 563 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,559 of accumulated, validated psychic energy, fueled by generations of patriotic 564 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:50,799 fervor and shared belief. 565 00:29:51,039 --> 00:29:54,519 Speaker 1: But maybe the most potent global eggregre, the one that 566 00:29:54,599 --> 00:29:58,559 transcends borders and commands the behavior of virtually everyone, regardless 567 00:29:58,599 --> 00:30:01,799 of nationality or religion, has to be money. 568 00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 2: Money, and value. They constitute a monumental global egg orgore. 569 00:30:06,079 --> 00:30:10,200 Currency is defined in the sources as a collective, imaginative construct. 570 00:30:10,279 --> 00:30:13,039 I love that phrase. It's perfect, isn't it. Its power 571 00:30:13,119 --> 00:30:16,880 to facilitate value, exchange and store wealth is based entirely 572 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,160 on our collective sustained trust and belief, not its physical form. 573 00:30:21,759 --> 00:30:24,640 A dollar bill has almost zero intrinsic value, but our 574 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,279 shared belief that others will accept it gives it global power. 575 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: The entire global economic system. 576 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 2: The stock markets, debt structures, commodities, exchanges. It's a vast, 577 00:30:34,359 --> 00:30:38,480 decentralized manifestation of sustained collective global thought. 578 00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: It exists purely because we all agree that it exists, 579 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,559 and that agreement makes it perhaps the most potent force 580 00:30:43,599 --> 00:30:46,799 in the world. It's a perfect feedback loop. Our belief 581 00:30:46,839 --> 00:30:50,079 creates its power, and its power reinforces our belief. 582 00:30:50,079 --> 00:30:54,119 Speaker 2: And that collective belief is constantly being reinforced. Especially in 583 00:30:54,119 --> 00:30:58,079 the commercial realm, corporate branding has become incredibly adept at 584 00:30:58,119 --> 00:31:01,279 feeding its own specific commercial aggrigors. 585 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: I see this abstraction every single day companies. They don't 586 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,079 present themselves as just profit machines. They present themselves as 587 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,680 friendly carrying entities. They have a specific, curated personality. 588 00:31:13,079 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 2: The level of abstraction in corporate eggrigors is described as gargantuan. 589 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,880 They present this friendly facade precisely to penetrate the collective subconscious. 590 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,079 They're distilled symbols, the logos that jingles, the short emotional messaging. 591 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,480 They pierce directly past our rational minds and into the unconscious, 592 00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:30,839 and that. 593 00:31:30,839 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: Leads consumers to invest. 594 00:31:32,519 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 2: Belief yes, which gives the aggregor the energy to control 595 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,279 consumer habits and loyalty. This competition for our attention and 596 00:31:39,319 --> 00:31:44,599 our psychic energy actually has a specific name in the sources, attentionism. 597 00:31:44,759 --> 00:31:47,279 Speaker 1: Attentionism. It's literally a war for our prana. 598 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 2: It is the unconscious part of our brain. It thinks 599 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,920 in simple images and symbols, and that makes logos and 600 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,640 emotional hooks, the bare essence of the aggregor immensely impactful 601 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:57,319 and effective. 602 00:31:57,599 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: This competition drives us right back to that con mechanism 603 00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:04,839 we talked about. These mega eggrigors. They don't just exist passively. 604 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,759 They actively seek out conflict because that high intensity emotion 605 00:32:10,279 --> 00:32:12,279 is the most reliable fuel they can get. 606 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: This is a devastating insight into systemic control. Eggregors seek 607 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,119 conflict because that is how their power flourishes and how 608 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:26,200 they maximize attentionism. The sources emphasize that supremely powerful eggregors 609 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,960 often come in pairs where their duality provides constant friction. 610 00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:32,519 Speaker 1: So Christianity needs is slim Apple. 611 00:32:32,279 --> 00:32:35,359 Speaker 2: Thee's Microsoft. The political right needs the political left. Their 612 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,200 conflict doesn't destroy them, It feeds both entities equally. 613 00:32:38,559 --> 00:32:42,839 Speaker 1: So if one eggrigre were to successfully eradicate all its enemies. 614 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,319 If say, a particular political ideology achieves total global hegemony, 615 00:32:47,359 --> 00:32:50,000 it would actually become obsolete, or at least severely weakened. 616 00:32:50,279 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 2: It would because it would lose the high intensity fuel 617 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,039 source of opposition, wow, the conflict, and the negative emotions 618 00:32:56,039 --> 00:32:59,400 it generates, the fear, the anger, that distress, the outrage 619 00:33:00,119 --> 00:33:03,400 of the essential survival mechanisms for the eggergre. The very 620 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,440 systems we inhabit cultivate environments that maximize this high intensity 621 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,400 emotional energy input from the masses. The more divided, outraged, 622 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,799 and partisan we are, the stronger these controlling systems become. 623 00:33:15,319 --> 00:33:17,839 It's an incredibly efficient system of psychiccarvasting. 624 00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:20,839 Speaker 1: The ultimate disturbing conclusion here is that we are actively 625 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:26,079 creating and sustaining these autonomous entities, often completely unknowingly, and 626 00:33:26,319 --> 00:33:29,440 they operate completely outside of our individual control. We are 627 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,279 both the creator and the controlled. 628 00:33:31,359 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 2: The control dynamic is completely reversed, and it becomes a 629 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,799 deep philosophical conundrum. The thought forms we create are inevitably 630 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,640 reflections of ourselves, but we are in turn subjective reflections 631 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,759 of the society we live in. It's a feedback loop, 632 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,400 a continuous cyclical feedback loop. The source material describes it perfectly. 633 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,599 One person's thought form blends into another. A tulpa becomes 634 00:33:54,599 --> 00:33:58,160 an eggregore, and a piece of that eggregre becomes another tulpa. 635 00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:01,720 It's a cycle that's been fed by generations of inherited 636 00:34:01,759 --> 00:34:02,519 belief systems. 637 00:34:02,599 --> 00:34:06,519 Speaker 1: So we inherit the energetic debt, the accumulated pawna of 638 00:34:06,559 --> 00:34:10,599 fear and hope from thousands of years of collective human belief, and. 639 00:34:10,599 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 2: This inheritance is incredibly difficult to shake. The ability to 640 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,639 just stop believing in a harmful concept, whether it's an 641 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,000 arbitrary cultural bias, a limiting self image, or a deeply 642 00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:25,719 entrenched hatred. It requires immense spiritual or psychological work. 643 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 1: Because your mind has been aggressively shaped by that concept 644 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:29,639 since you were a child. 645 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 2: Exactly the eggregory you're trying to renounce is literally built 646 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,199 into your own thought process. It's part of your mental architecture. 647 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,760 Speaker 1: And the individual experience of this control is it's palpable, 648 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,239 especially for anyone who tries to seek leadership or influence 649 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,440 within a large institutional setting. 650 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 2: The source State's a very bleak conclusion when it comes 651 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,719 to power structures. It says these Eggregors are often completely 652 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,840 out of human control, manifesting their power through the masses. 653 00:34:55,519 --> 00:34:56,559 Speaker 1: And out through the leaders. 654 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 2: The leaders are just conduits. The Source says, you cannot 655 00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:04,599 hold power in any large institution, a corporation, a political party, 656 00:35:04,639 --> 00:35:09,320 a major university without kneeling to eggrigors and parroting the 657 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,320 prescribed messages. The elites might think they're in charge, but 658 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,239 the real power of the Aggregor manifests through the masses, 659 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:17,920 who enforce the collective belief. 660 00:35:18,639 --> 00:35:22,079 Speaker 1: The system enforces conformity to its belief structure, which is 661 00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:26,719 designed purely to ensure the Eggregor's survival. So if the 662 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,679 system demands conflict and negative energy for its survival, how 663 00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:33,679 does an individual or a small group counter a powerful, 664 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,920 entrenched and destructive eggregore. You can't just fight it head on, 665 00:35:37,039 --> 00:35:37,599 can you? 666 00:35:37,639 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 2: No? Direct combat is often futile. In fact, it's counterproductive 667 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,440 because resistance simply feeds the conflict. It generates more of 668 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,360 that high intensity negative rana that the Aggregor craves. 669 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:48,039 Speaker 1: So what do you do? 670 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,559 Speaker 2: The Source uses a really powerful analogy. If you are 671 00:35:51,559 --> 00:35:55,480 facing a powerful Eggregor of death or destruction, you cannot 672 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,239 kill the desert with any amount of water. It will 673 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,639 just evaporate. It's too vast, Okay. Instead, you must systematically 674 00:36:02,679 --> 00:36:05,719 populate it with life. The only way to counter a 675 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,119 negative eggregre is by planning and executing life affirming beliefs, 676 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,480 retaining that positive energy within your own focus, and establishing 677 00:36:14,559 --> 00:36:17,880 a new center of gravity. It is a strategic withdrawal 678 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,159 of energy followed by a targeted spiritual and psychological rebuilding effort. 679 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: You stop feeding the parasite, You. 680 00:36:24,199 --> 00:36:26,519 Speaker 2: Stop feeding the parasite, and you nourish something new. 681 00:36:26,679 --> 00:36:30,199 Speaker 1: Entirely, this whole cycle, it just highlights that our beliefs 682 00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:33,559 and our awareness are not passive. We're not just consumers 683 00:36:33,599 --> 00:36:36,840 of reality. We are the active agents in defining the 684 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,119 collective reality, and we have to constantly monitor what we're 685 00:36:40,119 --> 00:36:42,039 creating and what we're hosting in our own minds. 686 00:36:42,159 --> 00:36:43,320 Speaker 2: That's the responsibility. 687 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 1: We have covered a tremendous scope today. We've connected this 688 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:51,639 ancient esoteric claim that collective intention creates artificial beings in 689 00:36:51,679 --> 00:36:55,559 the non physical realm with the measurable reality that memes 690 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:01,119 and collective belief systems drive observable human behavior, institute utional architecture, 691 00:37:01,159 --> 00:37:02,320 and emotional conflict. 692 00:37:02,519 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 2: The core division it still remains. You have the ontological 693 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,400 claim that eggergres possess an independent, non physical reality outside 694 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,079 the mind, versus the behavioral causation view that says they're 695 00:37:13,119 --> 00:37:14,880 merely emergent social constructs. 696 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,199 Speaker 1: But in the end, does the distinction even matter. 697 00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 2: That's the question, whether they are artificial beings or just 698 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,159 psychological forces. They command the behavior of billions of people, 699 00:37:25,559 --> 00:37:28,199 and as we move into a future that's dominated by 700 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,440 digital platforms, the speed in the scale of eggregore creation 701 00:37:32,639 --> 00:37:35,840 is only going to accelerate, and that makes this conversation 702 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,480 on attentionism and control more relevant than ever. 703 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,519 Speaker 1: What's especially fascinating to me is that the concept of 704 00:37:41,559 --> 00:37:45,320 the eggregore is in itself autological. It's a mere concept 705 00:37:45,679 --> 00:37:47,760 unless you believe in it, or at least unless you 706 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,719 dedicate your attention to understanding it, like we're doing right now. 707 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,280 Speaker 2: Well, if you were able to make sense of the 708 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,840 term today, you now belong to the specific referential field 709 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,199 that has been opened, and that is an important piece 710 00:37:58,199 --> 00:38:00,559 of knowledge to have when you're determining how you spend 711 00:38:00,559 --> 00:38:01,559 your emotional energy. 712 00:38:02,199 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 1: So here is our final provocative thought for you to ponder, 713 00:38:05,599 --> 00:38:10,480 Building on everything we've talked about if political conflict, religious dogma, 714 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,719 corporate branding, and even social media outrage are all systematic 715 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,320 mechanisms designed to maximize your emotional energy and your attention 716 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,800 the literal fuel for these entities. What beliefs are you 717 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,920 currently hosting? What reality are you actively helping to manifest today? 718 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,119 What systems are you unknowingly kneeling To leave 719 00:38:30,119 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 2: A comment and let us know what you think about 720 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,159 the invisible entities that might be influencing your daily life