Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune trip Cast for Tuesday,
Speaker 1: January twentieth, twenty twenty six. I am Matthew Watkins, editor
Speaker 1: in chief of the Texas Tribune, joined as usual by
Speaker 1: Eleanor Klebanoff. Hello, Eleanor, Hello Matthew. How are you doing well?
Speaker 1: Just got back late last night from a family trip
Speaker 1: to New York City.
Speaker 2: Oh fun, where it snowed.
Speaker 1: The entire time we were there. Is my daughter's thirteenth birthday,
Speaker 1: So nice.
Speaker 3: Were your Texas kids very freaked out by the snow?
Speaker 1: They loved it. We walked through Central Park in like
Speaker 1: a driving snowstorm, and they followed from behind me like
Speaker 1: ten feet the entire time, pelting me with snow like
Speaker 1: the entire the dream walk.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it was great.
Speaker 3: Every thirteen year old's birthday, wish.
Speaker 1: That's right, yeah, right. This week we are going to
Speaker 1: be talking about immigration enforcement in ice in Texas, and
Speaker 1: we are joined by two guests to discuss that. First
Speaker 1: from the Texas Tribune making her trip cast debut, Houston
Speaker 1: based reporter Colleen de Guzman. Hello, Colleen, Hello, it's good
Speaker 1: to be here. We are excited to have you, and
Speaker 1: we also have a Houston based although currently located in
Speaker 1: San Antonio, immigration attorney Paul Pirella.
Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, Hi, thank you, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you for being here. So, like I said,
Speaker 1: we are going to be talking about immigration here. Of course,
Speaker 1: for years and especially during the Biden administration, the Texas
Speaker 1: Mexico border has sort of been the focal point of
Speaker 1: our federal immigration conversation. But we are now in year
Speaker 1: two of the second Trump administration, and during the first year,
Speaker 1: the nation's eye kind of turned a little bit more
Speaker 1: toward the interior, right, A lot of things have slowed
Speaker 1: down at the border, and a lot of the action,
Speaker 1: a lot of the tension, at least in the national
Speaker 1: media has been in places like La Portland, Minneapolis, things
Speaker 1: like that. But Texas has remained a hotbed of immigration
Speaker 1: enforcement and activity, the Houston area being one of the
Speaker 1: most active places for ice arrests in the country. And
Speaker 1: so today we're going to talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: just sort of what's happening in Texas, how does it
Speaker 1: compare to the rest of the country, and what is
Speaker 1: the experience, you know, on the ground for people living
Speaker 1: through this every day. Paul, I want to start with you,
Speaker 1: and before we sort of talk about you know, ice
Speaker 1: and everything like that, I want to just talk ask
Speaker 1: just sort of about your role in this work. You
Speaker 1: are an immigration attorney. You you know, work with clients
Speaker 1: I know. But tell me kind of what your job
Speaker 1: has been this past year in this sort of new
Speaker 1: era of immigration enforcement.
Speaker 4: Of course, no, and thank you. So we have a
Speaker 4: small immigration firm in southwest Houston. It's just two attorneys,
Speaker 4: me in an associate whose name is Carlos Gutierres, and
Speaker 4: basically we do primarily we do immigration court work, so
Speaker 4: deportation defense, and we also do a lot of family
Speaker 4: based immigration with a little bit of employment based like
Speaker 4: visas and things sprinkled in. So what I can tell
Speaker 4: you is that in the last year we have had
Speaker 4: quite a big uptick in immigration enforcement basically defense work.
Speaker 4: So there's been a lot more cases involving detainees and
Speaker 4: a lot more cases of people getting sent to court
Speaker 4: and then we defend them in removal proceedings. I can
Speaker 4: tell you to talk about numbers, like I used to
Speaker 4: do maybe one or two detainee cases a month, and
Speaker 4: then in the last few months it's been basically more
Speaker 4: than one call a day from some by asking for
Speaker 4: a consultation because they have a family member or friend
Speaker 4: or somebody's being detained.
Speaker 2: So I can speak actually quite a lot about that. Okay,
Speaker 2: very good.
Speaker 1: So let's now let's take a step back and just
Speaker 1: talk about what Texas is experiencing. Colleen, you had a
Speaker 1: story that ran I believed yesterday kind of laying out
Speaker 1: the groundwork here. What has immigration enforcement in Texas looked
Speaker 1: like over this past year.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so the Trump administration, as we've seen in Texas
Speaker 5: is basically going all in on slowing down both do
Speaker 5: process for immigration and then also going all in on
Speaker 5: finding and documented immigrants within the country and within the state,
Speaker 5: already resting and deporting them. And like you said, what's
Speaker 5: different from his first term is that this year and
Speaker 5: this last year that we've seen is that they're really
Speaker 5: focusing on finding people at their work sites immigration where
Speaker 5: it's parking lots, and their homes. People have reported seeing
Speaker 5: ICE agents at federal buildings in Olpaso, immigration courthouses in
Speaker 5: San Antonio, and probation offices in Dallas. And so what
Speaker 5: we've really seen is that you know, they're looking everywhere
Speaker 5: for undocumented immigrants. And it's caused this huge wave of
Speaker 5: this new fear among undocumented immigrants across.
Speaker 1: The state, right, Paul, I mean, does that align with
Speaker 1: sort of the clients you've been hearing from, is it?
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that we sort of
Speaker 1: have understood about immigration enforcement in recent years, particularly under
Speaker 1: the Biden administration, but even maybe before that, is you
Speaker 1: would see a lot of things, you know, ice attentions
Speaker 1: and local jails and things like that. Are you seeing
Speaker 1: more people who are being picked up, you know, at
Speaker 1: their place of work or you know, having ice knock
Speaker 1: on their doors or or or that type of enforcement.
Speaker 2: Yes, I am.
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, so we've had a couple in the last month,
Speaker 4: well several in the last month. Well, one of the
Speaker 4: things that was a major change for me is that
Speaker 4: we had people picked up at checkpoints, you know, between
Speaker 4: here San Antonio and the border. Let's say Brownsville or McCallan.
Speaker 4: There's some checkpoints about about one hundred miles from the border,
Speaker 4: and in the past, people let's say, with pending cases
Speaker 4: that had entered on visas, that had applied for asylum,
Speaker 4: they were usually allowed to cross freely through those checkpoints
Speaker 4: as long as they don't cross outside of the United
Speaker 4: States while they're waiting for the case to be adjudicated
Speaker 4: by either USCIS or by the immigration courts, as long
Speaker 4: as they had status. And there's been even people in
Speaker 4: that case with absolutely no criminal history picked up at
Speaker 4: the checkpoints. I had a console with a person from
Speaker 4: Minnesota actually last Friday, where they showed me pictures of
Speaker 4: their truck and it has the glasses Saturday in. We're
Speaker 4: still trying to find out more information about that. But
Speaker 4: what the people that were witnessed to the event said
Speaker 4: that happened was that ICE came in and broke broke
Speaker 4: the dential clients windows and drag them out of his car.
Speaker 2: So that's very unfortunate.
Speaker 4: I can also say that I've seen, even though I've
Speaker 4: seen it less, I've seen people being dragged out of court.
Speaker 4: In one case in Dallas, Texas a few months ago,
Speaker 4: I think in the end of November, there was It
Speaker 4: wasn't one of my clients, but I was there in
Speaker 4: Dallas with the client in the courthouse in downtown and
Speaker 4: the ICE agents would wait until after the hearing was over,
Speaker 4: and then they took several people in front of me,
Speaker 4: in front of women in front of children.
Speaker 2: People were crying.
Speaker 4: It's one of the most I guess, horrible things that
Speaker 4: I've seen in my practice.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: I feel like, and you're sort of alluding to this
Speaker 3: that during previous administrations, even previous Republican administrations, the focus
Speaker 3: was really on like part of the reason there was
Speaker 3: this partnership with the jails was people who were you know,
Speaker 3: alleged criminals or people who were you know, we would
Speaker 3: hear these sort of horror stories of you know, undocumented
Speaker 3: immigrants who were accused of really you know, horrific crimes
Speaker 3: and saying, you know, we need to deport those people
Speaker 3: because they're you know, their primary crime was being here,
Speaker 3: you know, without documentation. Their primary crime was something else.
Speaker 3: Now it feels like with these street raids and showing
Speaker 3: up at you know, even court hearings where people are
Speaker 3: there because of their documentation status, not because of their
Speaker 3: other crimes. That's a real pivot. I mean, Colleen, what
Speaker 3: are we hearing from like elected officials from the Trump
Speaker 3: administrations or talking about that shift.
Speaker 5: From public officials from politictions. MM. So there's been frustration
Speaker 5: about how the Trump administration is basically making these moves
Speaker 5: and decisions without much approval from anyone. For example, earlier
Speaker 5: last year, the Trump admission, the Trump administration made two
Speaker 5: really big steps and basically forcing a bottleneck at federal
Speaker 5: detention centers and courthouses, like about one hundred immigration judges
Speaker 5: left voluntarily or forcibly from their benches last year, and
Speaker 5: many were fired by the Trump administration, basically slowing down
Speaker 5: the process of immigrants going through their legal process. And
Speaker 5: I'm sure Paul, you could talk about this part. And
Speaker 5: he also barred migrants from accessing bond hearings, and that
Speaker 5: basically means that all detained migrants have to stay in
Speaker 5: detention centers for the duration of their removal proceedings now,
Speaker 5: and that basically removes judges from being involved in whether
Speaker 5: an immigrant has to be detained. And an expert told
Speaker 5: me that that basically makes ice both the jailer and
Speaker 5: the judge, since there's no longer a review of migrants detention.
Speaker 1: Well, can you help me I kind of understand. I
Speaker 1: mean what you have said at the start of this
Speaker 1: about you know, one to two cases a month turning
Speaker 1: into you know, basically getting a phone call almost every
Speaker 1: day from from clients aligns with you know what we
Speaker 1: hear from a lot of immigration attorneys. You know, the
Speaker 1: ability of people to find pro bono work is incredibly hard.
Speaker 1: Right now, the all the sort of immigration bar reports
Speaker 1: being the sort of you know, swamped with cases right now.
Speaker 1: I'm going to quote a line from Colleen's story here,
Speaker 1: which is said, daily irs in Texas have jumped from
Speaker 1: an average of eighty five per day during the final
Speaker 1: eighteen months of the Biden administration to one hundred and
Speaker 1: seventy six per day in the first six months under Trump.
Speaker 1: We're talking about a double a doubling essentially, But what
Speaker 1: you were sort of describing sounds like far more than
Speaker 1: a doubling of calls from people sort of workware services.
Speaker 1: Can you help me understand, like, what's is there something
Speaker 1: else going on here? Like what is it? What is
Speaker 1: it that's happening with you in your office and the
Speaker 1: experience of people reaching out to lawyers that's causing this
Speaker 1: to be such a dramatic increase.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Colleen actually alluded to it right now. It's
Speaker 4: the ability to get an immigration bond. So there are
Speaker 4: two specific cases that came out from the Board of
Speaker 4: Immigration Appeals last year. A matter of q Lee was
Speaker 4: around May, and then matter of Yehudetdo was in September.
Speaker 4: But the effect of those cases was that if you
Speaker 4: did not come in with a visa, so not through
Speaker 4: a parole, through CBP, one through the border, and definitely
Speaker 4: not if you entered without inspection. If you did not
Speaker 4: comment with a visa, you can't get an immigration bond.
Speaker 4: The EOIR, which is the immigration courts, the Executive Office
Speaker 4: of Immigration Review, has basically held or they received instructions
Speaker 4: from the Chief of Immigration judge saying that they don't
Speaker 4: have jurisdiction to hear bond cases. So in the past,
Speaker 4: when somebody would go to a nice check in, there
Speaker 4: was really minimal risk of being detained if they didn't
Speaker 4: have a criminal history, because if they were detained, they
Speaker 4: could get a bond and still be able to fight
Speaker 4: out the case outside. What's happened with this has been
Speaker 4: that drastic change in law. It's been litigated in California
Speaker 4: also here in Texas. But because of that, so if
Speaker 4: you go and then that's for one and then the
Speaker 4: second the things that you guys said about where the
Speaker 4: arrests take place has increased highly. I think the number
Speaker 4: of immigrants that are detained here in Texas, and a
Speaker 4: lot of people basically in the face of that, they
Speaker 4: get scared, and a lot of people are also foregoing
Speaker 4: the rights, kind of like Colleen mussaying, because it is
Speaker 4: sort of an infringement and due process that somebody with
Speaker 4: very strong criminal accusations, maybe even you know, aggravated assault
Speaker 4: or murder will most of the time be able to
Speaker 4: at least apply for a bond hearing in front of
Speaker 4: a judge, while an immigrant that came in without an inspection,
Speaker 4: now the immigration just says, I won't even hear the case.
Speaker 2: I don't have jurisdiction.
Speaker 4: So I think that that is the major driving factor
Speaker 4: on why we're seeing the uptick. And also I think
Speaker 4: it's a premeditated strategy, because I believe. I mean, I
Speaker 4: can tell you a lot of stories that I don't
Speaker 4: want to ramble, but I've had It's happened several times
Speaker 4: where a family who entered through the border under one
Speaker 4: of these Biden programs, whether it be CDP WANT or
Speaker 4: whether Baffley that's pending a case before the immigration court,
Speaker 4: they show up to a nice check in and they
Speaker 4: detain the wife and not the husband, or they detained
Speaker 4: the husband and not the wife, and we think, what's
Speaker 4: the reasoning behind that is we believe that it's the
Speaker 4: administration is pressuring people to give up on their case
Speaker 4: and to leave, and that's something I don't think is right, and.
Speaker 5: Experts have told me that that's also seen in how
Speaker 5: arrests are up and detention centers meanwhile, are already overcrowded
Speaker 5: and understaffed. And in Texas, detention centers have been a
Speaker 5: big focus lately because the newest and biggest detention center
Speaker 5: called Camp East Montana in Fort Bliss, has had three
Speaker 5: deaths in the last two months, and the most recent
Speaker 5: death was of a thirty six year old man from Nicaragua.
Speaker 5: His name is Victor, and he was detained in Minneapolis,
Speaker 5: and I says his death was a presumed suicide, but
Speaker 5: that's still under investigation. And one of the cases that
Speaker 5: really put attention on how people end up dying in
Speaker 5: ice custody is the case of Heraldo Luna Scampos. He
Speaker 5: was fifty five and he's Cuban, and initially, when he
Speaker 5: died on January third, Ice characterized his death as a
Speaker 5: medical distress, but the Washington Post recently published a story
Speaker 5: about how the family is saying that the El Paso
Speaker 5: Medical Examiner is saying that preliminary reports on his death
Speaker 5: show that he may have died because of a homicide,
Speaker 5: that he wasn't able to breathe because something was like
Speaker 5: choking him. But the autopsy, the official autopsy, has not
Speaker 5: been reported yet. But days after that story, the AP
Speaker 5: report did that Ice is now claiming that his death
Speaker 5: was a suicide attempt. But a detainee who witnessed the
Speaker 5: death in the camp said that he died while his
Speaker 5: hands were handcuffed. And so the big question is if
Speaker 5: is is saying that he died because of a suicide attempt,
Speaker 5: how did he do that while he was handcuffed? And
Speaker 5: so we're still waiting on that official autopsy report from
Speaker 5: the medical examiner to see whether he died because of
Speaker 5: a homicide or suicide. But it's really calling attention to
Speaker 5: the conditions at this new camp. It's called Camp East
Speaker 5: Camp East Montana, and it's in El Paso, and it's
Speaker 5: not really a center. It's this huge, like sprawling tent
Speaker 5: where you know, that's kind of mostly how I prefers
Speaker 5: to have these detention centers.
Speaker 1: And and you know, I know that there's also you know,
Speaker 1: a center in Harlingen as well. I mean, Paul, what
Speaker 1: are you do you have clients who are you know,
Speaker 1: passing through these areas. Have you heard at all about
Speaker 1: you know, what the experience of people in these facilities is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've had I have several clients.
Speaker 4: Now we actually have a client that is in East Fontana,
Speaker 4: also imported Isabelle that's down south near Harlingen, in Carnes,
Speaker 4: south of San Antonio, and the several ones that are
Speaker 4: north of Houston, Livingston and Conro.
Speaker 2: And you know, we receive different reports.
Speaker 4: You know, we have some clients saying that they're treated badly,
Speaker 4: others that they're treated well.
Speaker 2: And in essence, I think that the biggest thing is.
Speaker 4: Yeah, in essence, the biggest thing, I think it's the
Speaker 4: time that it takes them to fight the case, maybe
Speaker 4: months that they spend in detention, even for the cases
Speaker 4: that we have one where they're ultimately released.
Speaker 2: I think that's also you know, a pretty huge concern.
Speaker 1: Okay, what about just like the experience of immigrants in
Speaker 1: Texas right now? You know, I mean, there are the
Speaker 1: people are who are in these facilities, there are people
Speaker 1: who being picked up. I mean when you talk to
Speaker 1: just folks, whether it's Calleen and your reporting or Paul
Speaker 1: and your legal work, I mean, where are you hearing from?
Speaker 1: You know what it's like to be a part of
Speaker 1: these communities right now.
Speaker 2: And that's also very sad. I can add to that.
Speaker 4: I heard a comment which is the first time I've
Speaker 4: heard it in you well ever, I think my family
Speaker 4: is originally from Venezuela. I was born in Madcaigro when
Speaker 4: I grew up here in Houston, and then I hear
Speaker 4: a lot of the Venezuelan's clients saying that this reminds
Speaker 4: me of Venezuela. That the things that they see on
Speaker 4: the news about the ice rays armed civilians is what
Speaker 4: they would call like a group that has done a
Speaker 4: lot of harm. Of course it's a different situation, but
Speaker 4: still it's like the fear that people live with knowing that, look,
Speaker 4: if I'm trying to follow the rules, I'm following my case,
Speaker 4: I'm attending their hearings, the or I'm just going to
Speaker 4: work the fear that they live in by just doing,
Speaker 4: you know, going about their everyday life is something that's
Speaker 4: big and yeah, it is affecting a lot of people.
Speaker 4: So I think there's an increased fear. Even for the people,
Speaker 4: let's say they have been granted asylum or that have
Speaker 4: green cards. They call me and asked me, is it
Speaker 4: safe for me to travel because I don't want to
Speaker 4: risk my future here in the US one they've already
Speaker 4: won their case, and I think, yeah, So that's what
Speaker 4: we've been hearing a lot about lately.
Speaker 1: Just out of curiosity. What are you saying to those
Speaker 1: clients when they ask you this question.
Speaker 2: So it depends on the case.
Speaker 4: Specifically for people that have already won their case, what
Speaker 4: I usually tell them is that you carry copies of
Speaker 4: certain documents with you to show. I have had several
Speaker 4: clients that already want asylum get picked up and then
Speaker 4: released the next day, So that is happy, you know,
Speaker 4: but it's basically so that they're able to show an
Speaker 4: officer exactly, you know, where their status is. We've also
Speaker 4: saw a video the other day of a Cuban immigrant
Speaker 4: that already had his green card have an interaction with
Speaker 4: ICE who tells him he's not in the system. He's
Speaker 4: getting picked up, and once he shows him the green card,
Speaker 4: they let him leave. So for those people you know
Speaker 4: that don't have any criminal charges that whether there's not
Speaker 4: a risk, I usually give them advice around that, but
Speaker 4: I would you know, it's that Night Taylor, case by
Speaker 4: case specifically for people that might be at more risk
Speaker 4: of detention.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And the Trump administration is you know, for people
Speaker 5: with green cards and asylum and asylum seekers, it's about
Speaker 5: making it difficult to live here because, for example, he
Speaker 5: recently said that people who are DOC recipients or asylum
Speaker 5: in the asylum process can no longer renew their com
Speaker 5: commercial driver's license, and so that's really going to rattle
Speaker 5: the trucking and trade industry. And for students, DOCA recipients
Speaker 5: can no longer access in state tuition. And so it's
Speaker 5: like policies like this that you know, it's pushing people
Speaker 5: into hiding even though they have tps or are asylum
Speaker 5: seekers or DOC recipients. Everyone you know is fearful and worried.
Speaker 1: What are you hearing, Colleen about, you know, from the
Speaker 1: Trump administration, from government officials about you know, is you know,
Speaker 1: when people raise these concerns, what's the reaction to that.
Speaker 5: I think it's been such a mutual this year that
Speaker 5: I was trying to do a story at the end
Speaker 5: of the year, trying to reach out to people from
Speaker 5: the nineteen countries with travel bands because people from those
Speaker 5: nineteen countries can no longer move forward in their legal process,
Speaker 5: their cases were being paused. And so I live in Houston,
Speaker 5: and I was certain that I would find someone who
Speaker 5: would be able to speak to me from one of
Speaker 5: those nineteen countries about their case. And Paul, I even
Speaker 5: asked you so many times to see if you could
Speaker 5: connect me to someone, and no one wanted to talk
Speaker 5: to me at all. And so I think politicians are,
Speaker 5: depending on where they're at, are usually where they don't
Speaker 5: want to speak about it, except for Mayor John Whitmeyer,
Speaker 5: who in Houston talked earlier about how he's working that
Speaker 5: that Houston, the Houston Police Department is collaborating with ICE
Speaker 5: to place ICE detainers on people at the jail. But
Speaker 5: it's been it's been quiet.
Speaker 3: I think, Like I mean, I've certainly read stories, I
Speaker 3: mean some in the Tribune, but also generally about just
Speaker 3: you know, the Trump administration early on sort of undid
Speaker 3: the protections that said like that limited the arrests of
Speaker 3: immigrants in sensitive locations schools, churches, hospitals. So I think
Speaker 3: a lot of this is sort of part of the plan.
Speaker 3: I think, like, while there's been some blowback to some
Speaker 3: of these policies, that generally speaking, like when we hear
Speaker 3: stories of immigrant communities where people are not going to church,
Speaker 3: or they're not seeking out medical care, or they're worried
Speaker 3: about sending their kids to school or travel too the
Speaker 3: grocery store. Like, I think the optics of these street
Speaker 3: raids and things like that are sort of serving the
Speaker 3: purposes of the administration. You know, the administration at least
Speaker 3: currently is like on board with how that is played.
Speaker 1: Right, the idea of making the country a less hospitable
Speaker 1: place for people to come, you know, without authorization in
Speaker 1: order to come, right, And if that's the goal, then
Speaker 1: some of that uncertainty, some of that feeling of you
Speaker 1: can't travel and all those things is further accomplishing that goal.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: I think the political question that we will get some
Speaker 3: insight into, you know, this year, but probably not fully
Speaker 3: until the next presidential election, is, you know, how is that,
Speaker 3: you know, how unpopular are these policies. You know, I
Speaker 3: think that there's a lot of people who particularly among
Speaker 3: like Latino voters, who have swung pretty strongly towards President
Speaker 3: Trump in the twenty twenty four election.
Speaker 2: You know, is this.
Speaker 3: Blowing up in Republicans faces or is it not? As
Speaker 3: you know, people are very outraged about it.
Speaker 2: Is it going to affect how they vote?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean, Colleen, it's been interesting, just as you mentioned
Speaker 1: Mayor John Whitmyer and Houston an area. You know, he
Speaker 1: is a of course a Democrat elected to a nonpartisan office,
Speaker 1: but in a city that has at least in recent
Speaker 1: elections voted democratically. You know, that's that's been an interesting
Speaker 1: political topic to watch in that city in particular.
Speaker 5: Mm hm. And you know, Houston was home to one
Speaker 5: of the first big raids of the Trump administration. I
Speaker 5: think January or February there was a huge raid in
Speaker 5: Colony Ridge, which is a huge neighborhood outside of Houston
Speaker 5: where you know a lot of Latinos live, and so
Speaker 5: you know, there's outrage here in Houston, but there's also
Speaker 5: on the local level a sense of cooperation. Houston Police
Speaker 5: Department is working alongside ice and John Whitmeyer is not,
Speaker 5: you know, in the way of that, and the state
Speaker 5: is also not in the way that the state is
Speaker 5: collaborating with ICE as well, and so that's kind of
Speaker 5: put Houston in a different position than other more blue
Speaker 5: states at cities.
Speaker 2: Paul.
Speaker 1: I mean the other thing that has, of course come up.
Speaker 1: You mentioned the client in Minnesota who had their windows broken.
Speaker 1: Of course, Minnesota has become, you know, a powder keg
Speaker 1: in this world, and you know a lot of concerns
Speaker 1: there and in other places about you know, people ICE
Speaker 1: agents wearing masks, behaving very aggressively in their raids and
Speaker 1: things like that. I feel like, you know, there have
Speaker 1: been protests against that in places like Houston other Texas cities,
Speaker 1: but I feel like we are hearing fewer stories of
Speaker 1: that kind of behavior in Texas. Is that because it's
Speaker 1: not happening as much here? Is it because for another reason?
Speaker 1: I mean, are those are you seeing signs of those
Speaker 1: tactics here in Texas? I guess is a better way
Speaker 1: of putting that question.
Speaker 4: I haven't seen anybody like like the store in Minnesota
Speaker 4: where they're dragged out of their car where it's broken into.
Speaker 4: But we have heard stories of like bounty counters, especially
Speaker 4: in the area north of Texas called the datos Houston.
Speaker 4: I think it's what they are used to call where
Speaker 4: they're basically patrolling their people with masks and stuff that
Speaker 4: will end up, like you know, catching somebody that they
Speaker 4: think might be an immigrant without status and bringing them ties.
Speaker 4: But the majority of the rest that I'm seeing is
Speaker 4: in Houston is at the jails, you know, after the
Speaker 4: ice attainers, it's crossing the vorder checkpoints whenever people are
Speaker 4: traveling from Houston. Like I said, many people not knowing
Speaker 4: that they're at risk at all because they have permission
Speaker 4: to be here, they have work permits, driver's licenses, they
Speaker 4: travel from Houston to the border or back. They're being
Speaker 4: detained there and at ICE check ins. So I think
Speaker 4: with that, I mean, I think that that's the vast
Speaker 4: majority of the arrests that I see around here in Texas.
Speaker 2: And then at the courts.
Speaker 4: It was funny one of you mentioned San Antonio earlier
Speaker 4: today where I am now, and then I just had
Speaker 4: my friend just showed me the ICE bus that's outside
Speaker 4: that the San Antonio Demigration court that's here in downtown,
Speaker 4: and then where you can see it visibly, it's parked outside.
Speaker 4: It's a big white bus. And then Unfortunately, that is
Speaker 4: something that is still going on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, two stats, calling from your story. These are national stats,
Speaker 1: not just in Texas, but under the Biden administration, eighty
Speaker 1: percent of ICE arrests came from county jails, in federal
Speaker 1: and state prisons. Under Trump, that number has dropped to
Speaker 1: sixty four point one, right, which would indicate that a
Speaker 1: higher percentage of the arrest and of course we know
Speaker 1: that the arrests have increased significantly have come from you know,
Speaker 1: outside the criminal justice system, outside that you know, going
Speaker 1: after people who have already been arrested, or you know,
Speaker 1: are alleged to be criminals, or any of those types
Speaker 1: of things. Similarly, this is actually a Texas stat. Fifty
Speaker 1: eight percent of people ICE arrested under Biden had criminal convictions,
Speaker 1: compared to forty two percent under Trump. So that another
Speaker 1: kind of piece of ten.
Speaker 3: Half of the people who are being arrested now have
Speaker 3: crimes other than immigration offenses.
Speaker 5: And I wrote a story earlier this last or last
Speaker 5: year about how, you know, the victims of criminal cases
Speaker 5: are being deported Meanwhile the person who you know did
Speaker 5: the crime is able to stay and experience due process.
Speaker 5: And so it was just like a sign of the times.
Speaker 3: I think like part of the goal I think explicitly
Speaker 3: in many cases of the Trump administration is to get
Speaker 3: people to self deport, to just leave the country. Paul
Speaker 3: and Colleen, are you guys hearing from people that are
Speaker 3: taking that option? Is that you know, having that ripple effect?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it is.
Speaker 4: I can speak to my practice, you know, a lot
Speaker 4: of the times, the first thing we do when someone
Speaker 4: calls us to do a consult where we try to
Speaker 4: speak to the family of the person detained, and often
Speaker 4: they will ask us to speak to the client. We
Speaker 4: do a confidential call with the metic Detention Center before
Speaker 4: we ever move on with the case.
Speaker 2: And then a lot of the people are hearing.
Speaker 4: Once they hear I don't have well that the government
Speaker 4: takes a position, I don't have a right to an
Speaker 4: immigration bond. If I'm going to fight my case, I
Speaker 4: might be here months. If I appeal, I could be
Speaker 4: here more than a year. Then a lot of people
Speaker 4: are then taking the decision to self deport and try
Speaker 4: to go somewhere else. I've had several Cuban clients that
Speaker 4: chose not to fight their case be removed to Mexico
Speaker 4: and then from there try to seek asylum in Spain
Speaker 4: or in other places. So I think it is implicit
Speaker 4: that that's basically the strategy that they're doing. I think,
Speaker 4: like the Eleanor said, it's the optics, you know, if
Speaker 4: the news well, basically, if all these things are done,
Speaker 4: the raids, people have feared to even cross the border.
Speaker 4: The number of crossings with that inspection has dropped to,
Speaker 4: you know, numbers that we haven't seen in fifty years.
Speaker 4: So people are not coming in, and then the ones
Speaker 4: that are here, that came in in the last few years,
Speaker 4: even that been here for a long time, are scared.
Speaker 4: And some people have decided, you know, I went to USCIS,
Speaker 4: my asylum case might have not got approved. I do
Speaker 4: have a right to go before an immigration judge and
Speaker 4: seek it. But I've also seen a lot of those
Speaker 4: people decide, like, no, let me go try to seek
Speaker 4: asylum somewhere else because they don't want to be at
Speaker 4: risk of being detained and then sent back to Venezuela,
Speaker 4: to Columbia, to Afghanistan and those things.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and Udiel, my colleague who's on parental right now.
Speaker 5: Before he left, he did a really great story on
Speaker 5: a mother who was detained and her and her husband
Speaker 5: left Belize because of some death threats. And they've been
Speaker 5: in the country for a long time, and they have
Speaker 5: children who mixed status citizenship, and she was at a
Speaker 5: detention center and contracted hepatitis there and so it just
Speaker 5: showed how you know, she and they gave for tail
Speaker 5: and all I believe for it, and so it just
Speaker 5: got so difficult there that she decided to self deport
Speaker 5: and her husband ended up following her and they had
Speaker 5: to leave their children here. So they're back in Belize
Speaker 5: right now. And it's just an example of how people
Speaker 5: are being pushed to self deport. That's the goal, it
Speaker 5: seems for Ice. In the Trump administration.
Speaker 4: There's another strategy that I wanted to mention to piggyback
Speaker 4: off of that, and it's it's the removals to third countries.
Speaker 4: I don't know if you guys have heard about that
Speaker 4: in the news, but the Trump administration has also signed
Speaker 4: several agreements and among those Acudor Duras Guatemala, where.
Speaker 2: Like they will get well.
Speaker 4: Basically, the crux of the agreement is if you're applying
Speaker 4: for asylum here right then you came in through the
Speaker 4: Southern border on most of them that if you do
Speaker 4: not fear persecution in the third country which you might
Speaker 4: have never been to, we can for go having to
Speaker 4: even hear your silent case. So I've had that happened
Speaker 4: already twice for on Dudas, and it's happening now more
Speaker 4: for Ecuador with somebody from Venezuela or Nikadaigua, for example.
Speaker 4: It's one of the cases that we're appealing where he
Speaker 4: has a very strong as silent case.
Speaker 2: He was in the news his home. He was in
Speaker 2: the news that his home.
Speaker 4: Was ransacked by the National Police or by the Pillar paramilitaries.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, and he had a lot of publications proof
Speaker 4: of being a student organizer protest, and then the judge
Speaker 4: didn't here is the silent case because DHS wanted to
Speaker 4: remove him to on Doudas, where he has never been
Speaker 4: and cannot prove that he will be persecuted there. So
Speaker 4: we're appealing the legality of these agreements, and it's something
Speaker 4: that's going on, but also that I guess the fear
Speaker 4: of getting sent to a place I've never been before
Speaker 4: is also being used against the asylum seeker to sort
Speaker 4: of persuade them to give up on the claim to
Speaker 4: and I think they've even said publicly, and I wouldn't
Speaker 4: quote that because I don't remember the exact words that
Speaker 4: they have to do some like the Trump administration that
Speaker 4: said that they have to do something about the backlog
Speaker 4: of all these cases of immigration court, which was about
Speaker 4: four million, so like we can't give everybody doing process.
Speaker 4: I remember hearing that in the news, but that was
Speaker 4: the crux of what they said. So I think it
Speaker 4: is being done deliberately and that these things are done
Speaker 4: so well that in essence, it's it's basically taking away
Speaker 4: a lot of the protections that people have, especially those
Speaker 4: that are seeking aside.
Speaker 1: Well, I know it's hard to speak in too much
Speaker 1: generalities because every client is different. Every client has individual
Speaker 1: circumstances and factors that are you know, leading to the
Speaker 1: decisions that they make. But I wonder if you could
Speaker 1: just talk a little bit about the the decision making process,
Speaker 1: the factors that people are having to consider, and just
Speaker 1: you know, seems sort of obvious, but just the life
Speaker 1: impact of being caught up in this system is having
Speaker 1: on the people you're working with, Like what are you seeing,
Speaker 1: how are you seeing people sort of experience this from
Speaker 1: the sort of most human level.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's something that's it's really sad, really,
Speaker 4: especially whenever it comes to the detentions without bond, because
Speaker 4: in the past, you know, if a family member was detained,
Speaker 4: even if they came in with that inspection, like I mentioned,
Speaker 4: they could most of the time get a bond if
Speaker 4: they weren't a flight risk, weren't a danger to a community,
Speaker 4: were a threat to public safety. And then now what
Speaker 4: happens is I have to have a conversation with that.
Speaker 4: I've had many times with a mother that the children
Speaker 4: are US citizens at home, maybe the mother does not
Speaker 4: have status, or the spouse might have status, and they
Speaker 4: detained the husband, the father, and now you say, well,
Speaker 4: look there's a chance of him getting out, but it
Speaker 4: will take a federal lawsuit if he fights his case,
Speaker 4: you know, which he might have a case to fight.
Speaker 4: Maybe a cancelation will remover or one of these other
Speaker 4: benefits that it will be months in jail. You know,
Speaker 4: that's something that affects them terribly because maybe the primary
Speaker 4: provider is now detained, and how are they supposed to
Speaker 4: provide for the family, for the kids to pay rent
Speaker 4: to buy grown trees and then so that really puts
Speaker 4: a lot of pressure on people. Have also seen people
Speaker 4: on the human aspect that have built businesses, that have stores,
Speaker 4: have construction companies, have a small businesses and contribute to
Speaker 4: the economy of not only Houston, but like of the country.
Speaker 4: And then now who's going to run the business where
Speaker 4: or like another person that you know whose workers are
Speaker 4: scared to come to work because they're scared the ice
Speaker 4: is going to come, you know, like do a raid
Speaker 4: at a construction sete.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: So it's it's really affecting people a lot. So in
Speaker 4: the decision making process, they basically have to weigh and
Speaker 4: I feel like it's my job to inform them before
Speaker 4: you start, this is what we're getting into. And then
Speaker 4: so that they're informed about whether or not I choose
Speaker 4: to fight the case or not. And if you're going
Speaker 4: to fight it, then you have to fight it with
Speaker 4: everything you got. And if you choose not to that
Speaker 4: the best thing for my family is is to leave,
Speaker 4: then that's the decision that I have to respect from
Speaker 4: the people that make it, you know, from the families
Speaker 4: that are affected.
Speaker 1: All right, well, Pirella, I know you are very busy.
Speaker 1: You you showed us that at the at the beginning
Speaker 1: of this Thank you so much for taking the time
Speaker 1: to talk us through this and share your experiences UH
Speaker 1: And a big thank you as well to you Colleen
Speaker 1: UH for for your coverage and for talking this through
Speaker 1: eleanor great talking with you as talk to.
Speaker 2: You next week.
Speaker 1: And a big thank you to our producers Rob and Chris.
Speaker 1: We will be back next week.
Speaker 4: M