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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune trip Cast for Tuesday,

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January twentieth, twenty twenty six. I am Matthew Watkins, editor

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in chief of the Texas Tribune, joined as usual by

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Eleanor Klebanoff. Hello, Eleanor, Hello Matthew. How are you doing well?

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Just got back late last night from a family trip

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to New York City.

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Speaker 2: Oh fun, where it snowed.

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Speaker 1: The entire time we were there. Is my daughter's thirteenth birthday,

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So nice.

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Speaker 3: Were your Texas kids very freaked out by the snow?

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Speaker 1: They loved it. We walked through Central Park in like

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a driving snowstorm, and they followed from behind me like

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ten feet the entire time, pelting me with snow like

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the entire the dream walk.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it was great.

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Speaker 3: Every thirteen year old's birthday, wish.

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Speaker 1: That's right, yeah, right. This week we are going to

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be talking about immigration enforcement in ice in Texas, and

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we are joined by two guests to discuss that. First

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from the Texas Tribune making her trip cast debut, Houston

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based reporter Colleen de Guzman. Hello, Colleen, Hello, it's good

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to be here. We are excited to have you, and

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we also have a Houston based although currently located in

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San Antonio, immigration attorney Paul Pirella.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, Hi, thank you, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Yes, thank you for being here. So, like I said,

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we are going to be talking about immigration here. Of course,

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for years and especially during the Biden administration, the Texas

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Mexico border has sort of been the focal point of

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our federal immigration conversation. But we are now in year

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two of the second Trump administration, and during the first year,

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the nation's eye kind of turned a little bit more

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toward the interior, right, A lot of things have slowed

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down at the border, and a lot of the action,

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a lot of the tension, at least in the national

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media has been in places like La Portland, Minneapolis, things

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like that. But Texas has remained a hotbed of immigration

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enforcement and activity, the Houston area being one of the

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most active places for ice arrests in the country. And

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so today we're going to talk a little bit about

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just sort of what's happening in Texas, how does it

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compare to the rest of the country, and what is

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the experience, you know, on the ground for people living

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through this every day. Paul, I want to start with you,

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and before we sort of talk about you know, ice

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and everything like that, I want to just talk ask

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just sort of about your role in this work. You

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are an immigration attorney. You you know, work with clients

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I know. But tell me kind of what your job

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has been this past year in this sort of new

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era of immigration enforcement.

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Speaker 4: Of course, no, and thank you. So we have a

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small immigration firm in southwest Houston. It's just two attorneys,

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me in an associate whose name is Carlos Gutierres, and

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basically we do primarily we do immigration court work, so

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deportation defense, and we also do a lot of family

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based immigration with a little bit of employment based like

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visas and things sprinkled in. So what I can tell

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you is that in the last year we have had

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quite a big uptick in immigration enforcement basically defense work.

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So there's been a lot more cases involving detainees and

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a lot more cases of people getting sent to court

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and then we defend them in removal proceedings. I can

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tell you to talk about numbers, like I used to

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do maybe one or two detainee cases a month, and

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then in the last few months it's been basically more

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than one call a day from some by asking for

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a consultation because they have a family member or friend

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or somebody's being detained.

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Speaker 2: So I can speak actually quite a lot about that. Okay,

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very good.

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Speaker 1: So let's now let's take a step back and just

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talk about what Texas is experiencing. Colleen, you had a

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story that ran I believed yesterday kind of laying out

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the groundwork here. What has immigration enforcement in Texas looked

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like over this past year.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so the Trump administration, as we've seen in Texas

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is basically going all in on slowing down both do

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process for immigration and then also going all in on

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finding and documented immigrants within the country and within the state,

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already resting and deporting them. And like you said, what's

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different from his first term is that this year and

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this last year that we've seen is that they're really

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focusing on finding people at their work sites immigration where

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it's parking lots, and their homes. People have reported seeing

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ICE agents at federal buildings in Olpaso, immigration courthouses in

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San Antonio, and probation offices in Dallas. And so what

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we've really seen is that you know, they're looking everywhere

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for undocumented immigrants. And it's caused this huge wave of

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this new fear among undocumented immigrants across.

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Speaker 1: The state, right, Paul, I mean, does that align with

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sort of the clients you've been hearing from, is it?

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I think one of the things that we sort of

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have understood about immigration enforcement in recent years, particularly under

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the Biden administration, but even maybe before that, is you

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would see a lot of things, you know, ice attentions

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and local jails and things like that. Are you seeing

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more people who are being picked up, you know, at

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their place of work or you know, having ice knock

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on their doors or or or that type of enforcement.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I am.

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Speaker 4: Unfortunately, so we've had a couple in the last month,

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well several in the last month. Well, one of the

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things that was a major change for me is that

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we had people picked up at checkpoints, you know, between

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here San Antonio and the border. Let's say Brownsville or McCallan.

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There's some checkpoints about about one hundred miles from the border,

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and in the past, people let's say, with pending cases

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that had entered on visas, that had applied for asylum,

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they were usually allowed to cross freely through those checkpoints

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as long as they don't cross outside of the United

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States while they're waiting for the case to be adjudicated

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by either USCIS or by the immigration courts, as long

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as they had status. And there's been even people in

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that case with absolutely no criminal history picked up at

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the checkpoints. I had a console with a person from

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Minnesota actually last Friday, where they showed me pictures of

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their truck and it has the glasses Saturday in. We're

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still trying to find out more information about that. But

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what the people that were witnessed to the event said

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that happened was that ICE came in and broke broke

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the dential clients windows and drag them out of his car.

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Speaker 2: So that's very unfortunate.

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Speaker 4: I can also say that I've seen, even though I've

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seen it less, I've seen people being dragged out of court.

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In one case in Dallas, Texas a few months ago,

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I think in the end of November, there was It

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wasn't one of my clients, but I was there in

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Dallas with the client in the courthouse in downtown and

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the ICE agents would wait until after the hearing was over,

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and then they took several people in front of me,

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in front of women in front of children.

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Speaker 2: People were crying.

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Speaker 4: It's one of the most I guess, horrible things that

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I've seen in my practice.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 3: I feel like, and you're sort of alluding to this

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that during previous administrations, even previous Republican administrations, the focus

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was really on like part of the reason there was

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this partnership with the jails was people who were you know,

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alleged criminals or people who were you know, we would

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hear these sort of horror stories of you know, undocumented

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immigrants who were accused of really you know, horrific crimes

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and saying, you know, we need to deport those people

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because they're you know, their primary crime was being here,

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you know, without documentation. Their primary crime was something else.

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Now it feels like with these street raids and showing

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up at you know, even court hearings where people are

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there because of their documentation status, not because of their

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other crimes. That's a real pivot. I mean, Colleen, what

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are we hearing from like elected officials from the Trump

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administrations or talking about that shift.

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Speaker 5: From public officials from politictions. MM. So there's been frustration

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about how the Trump administration is basically making these moves

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and decisions without much approval from anyone. For example, earlier

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last year, the Trump admission, the Trump administration made two

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really big steps and basically forcing a bottleneck at federal

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detention centers and courthouses, like about one hundred immigration judges

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left voluntarily or forcibly from their benches last year, and

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many were fired by the Trump administration, basically slowing down

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the process of immigrants going through their legal process. And

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I'm sure Paul, you could talk about this part. And

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he also barred migrants from accessing bond hearings, and that

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basically means that all detained migrants have to stay in

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detention centers for the duration of their removal proceedings now,

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and that basically removes judges from being involved in whether

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an immigrant has to be detained. And an expert told

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me that that basically makes ice both the jailer and

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the judge, since there's no longer a review of migrants detention.

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Speaker 1: Well, can you help me I kind of understand. I

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mean what you have said at the start of this

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about you know, one to two cases a month turning

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into you know, basically getting a phone call almost every

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day from from clients aligns with you know what we

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hear from a lot of immigration attorneys. You know, the

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ability of people to find pro bono work is incredibly hard.

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Right now, the all the sort of immigration bar reports

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being the sort of you know, swamped with cases right now.

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I'm going to quote a line from Colleen's story here,

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which is said, daily irs in Texas have jumped from

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an average of eighty five per day during the final

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eighteen months of the Biden administration to one hundred and

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seventy six per day in the first six months under Trump.

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We're talking about a double a doubling essentially, But what

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you were sort of describing sounds like far more than

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a doubling of calls from people sort of workware services.

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Can you help me understand, like, what's is there something

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else going on here? Like what is it? What is

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it that's happening with you in your office and the

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experience of people reaching out to lawyers that's causing this

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to be such a dramatic increase.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and Colleen actually alluded to it right now. It's

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the ability to get an immigration bond. So there are

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two specific cases that came out from the Board of

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Immigration Appeals last year. A matter of q Lee was

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around May, and then matter of Yehudetdo was in September.

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But the effect of those cases was that if you

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did not come in with a visa, so not through

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a parole, through CBP, one through the border, and definitely

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not if you entered without inspection. If you did not

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comment with a visa, you can't get an immigration bond.

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The EOIR, which is the immigration courts, the Executive Office

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of Immigration Review, has basically held or they received instructions

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from the Chief of Immigration judge saying that they don't

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have jurisdiction to hear bond cases. So in the past,

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when somebody would go to a nice check in, there

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was really minimal risk of being detained if they didn't

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have a criminal history, because if they were detained, they

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could get a bond and still be able to fight

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out the case outside. What's happened with this has been

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that drastic change in law. It's been litigated in California

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also here in Texas. But because of that, so if

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you go and then that's for one and then the

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second the things that you guys said about where the

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arrests take place has increased highly. I think the number

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of immigrants that are detained here in Texas, and a

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lot of people basically in the face of that, they

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get scared, and a lot of people are also foregoing

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the rights, kind of like Colleen mussaying, because it is

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sort of an infringement and due process that somebody with

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very strong criminal accusations, maybe even you know, aggravated assault

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or murder will most of the time be able to

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at least apply for a bond hearing in front of

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a judge, while an immigrant that came in without an inspection,

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now the immigration just says, I won't even hear the case.

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Speaker 2: I don't have jurisdiction.

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Speaker 4: So I think that that is the major driving factor

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on why we're seeing the uptick. And also I think

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it's a premeditated strategy, because I believe. I mean, I

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can tell you a lot of stories that I don't

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want to ramble, but I've had It's happened several times

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where a family who entered through the border under one

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of these Biden programs, whether it be CDP WANT or

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whether Baffley that's pending a case before the immigration court,

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they show up to a nice check in and they

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detain the wife and not the husband, or they detained

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the husband and not the wife, and we think, what's

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the reasoning behind that is we believe that it's the

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administration is pressuring people to give up on their case

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and to leave, and that's something I don't think is right, and.

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Speaker 5: Experts have told me that that's also seen in how

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arrests are up and detention centers meanwhile, are already overcrowded

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and understaffed. And in Texas, detention centers have been a

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big focus lately because the newest and biggest detention center

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called Camp East Montana in Fort Bliss, has had three

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deaths in the last two months, and the most recent

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death was of a thirty six year old man from Nicaragua.

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His name is Victor, and he was detained in Minneapolis,

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and I says his death was a presumed suicide, but

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that's still under investigation. And one of the cases that

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really put attention on how people end up dying in

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ice custody is the case of Heraldo Luna Scampos. He

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was fifty five and he's Cuban, and initially, when he

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died on January third, Ice characterized his death as a

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medical distress, but the Washington Post recently published a story

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about how the family is saying that the El Paso

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Medical Examiner is saying that preliminary reports on his death

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show that he may have died because of a homicide,

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that he wasn't able to breathe because something was like

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choking him. But the autopsy, the official autopsy, has not

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been reported yet. But days after that story, the AP

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report did that Ice is now claiming that his death

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was a suicide attempt. But a detainee who witnessed the

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death in the camp said that he died while his

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hands were handcuffed. And so the big question is if

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is is saying that he died because of a suicide attempt,

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how did he do that while he was handcuffed? And

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so we're still waiting on that official autopsy report from

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the medical examiner to see whether he died because of

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a homicide or suicide. But it's really calling attention to

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the conditions at this new camp. It's called Camp East

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Camp East Montana, and it's in El Paso, and it's

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not really a center. It's this huge, like sprawling tent

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where you know, that's kind of mostly how I prefers

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to have these detention centers.

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Speaker 1: And and you know, I know that there's also you know,

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a center in Harlingen as well. I mean, Paul, what

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are you do you have clients who are you know,

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passing through these areas. Have you heard at all about

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you know, what the experience of people in these facilities is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've had I have several clients.

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Speaker 4: Now we actually have a client that is in East Fontana,

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also imported Isabelle that's down south near Harlingen, in Carnes,

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south of San Antonio, and the several ones that are

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north of Houston, Livingston and Conro.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we receive different reports.

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Speaker 4: You know, we have some clients saying that they're treated badly,

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others that they're treated well.

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Speaker 2: And in essence, I think that the biggest thing is.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, in essence, the biggest thing, I think it's the

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time that it takes them to fight the case, maybe

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months that they spend in detention, even for the cases

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that we have one where they're ultimately released.

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Speaker 2: I think that's also you know, a pretty huge concern.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what about just like the experience of immigrants in

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Texas right now? You know, I mean, there are the

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people are who are in these facilities, there are people

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who being picked up. I mean when you talk to

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just folks, whether it's Calleen and your reporting or Paul

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and your legal work, I mean, where are you hearing from?

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You know what it's like to be a part of

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these communities right now.

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Speaker 2: And that's also very sad. I can add to that.

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Speaker 4: I heard a comment which is the first time I've

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heard it in you well ever, I think my family

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is originally from Venezuela. I was born in Madcaigro when

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I grew up here in Houston, and then I hear

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a lot of the Venezuelan's clients saying that this reminds

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me of Venezuela. That the things that they see on

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the news about the ice rays armed civilians is what

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they would call like a group that has done a

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lot of harm. Of course it's a different situation, but

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still it's like the fear that people live with knowing that, look,

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if I'm trying to follow the rules, I'm following my case,

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I'm attending their hearings, the or I'm just going to

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work the fear that they live in by just doing,

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you know, going about their everyday life is something that's

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big and yeah, it is affecting a lot of people.

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So I think there's an increased fear. Even for the people,

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let's say they have been granted asylum or that have

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green cards. They call me and asked me, is it

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safe for me to travel because I don't want to

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risk my future here in the US one they've already

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won their case, and I think, yeah, So that's what

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we've been hearing a lot about lately.

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Speaker 1: Just out of curiosity. What are you saying to those

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clients when they ask you this question.

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Speaker 2: So it depends on the case.

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Speaker 4: Specifically for people that have already won their case, what

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I usually tell them is that you carry copies of

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certain documents with you to show. I have had several

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clients that already want asylum get picked up and then

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released the next day, So that is happy, you know,

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but it's basically so that they're able to show an

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officer exactly, you know, where their status is. We've also

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saw a video the other day of a Cuban immigrant

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that already had his green card have an interaction with

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ICE who tells him he's not in the system. He's

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getting picked up, and once he shows him the green card,

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they let him leave. So for those people you know

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that don't have any criminal charges that whether there's not

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a risk, I usually give them advice around that, but

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I would you know, it's that Night Taylor, case by

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case specifically for people that might be at more risk

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of detention.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And the Trump administration is you know, for people

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with green cards and asylum and asylum seekers, it's about

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making it difficult to live here because, for example, he

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recently said that people who are DOC recipients or asylum

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in the asylum process can no longer renew their com

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commercial driver's license, and so that's really going to rattle

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the trucking and trade industry. And for students, DOCA recipients

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can no longer access in state tuition. And so it's

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like policies like this that you know, it's pushing people

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into hiding even though they have tps or are asylum

356
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seekers or DOC recipients. Everyone you know is fearful and worried.

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Speaker 1: What are you hearing, Colleen about, you know, from the

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Trump administration, from government officials about you know, is you know,

359
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when people raise these concerns, what's the reaction to that.

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Speaker 5: I think it's been such a mutual this year that

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I was trying to do a story at the end

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of the year, trying to reach out to people from

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the nineteen countries with travel bands because people from those

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nineteen countries can no longer move forward in their legal process,

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their cases were being paused. And so I live in Houston,

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and I was certain that I would find someone who

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would be able to speak to me from one of

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those nineteen countries about their case. And Paul, I even

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asked you so many times to see if you could

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connect me to someone, and no one wanted to talk

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to me at all. And so I think politicians are,

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depending on where they're at, are usually where they don't

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want to speak about it, except for Mayor John Whitmeyer,

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who in Houston talked earlier about how he's working that

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that Houston, the Houston Police Department is collaborating with ICE

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to place ICE detainers on people at the jail. But

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it's been it's been quiet.

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Speaker 3: I think, Like I mean, I've certainly read stories, I

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mean some in the Tribune, but also generally about just

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you know, the Trump administration early on sort of undid

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the protections that said like that limited the arrests of

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immigrants in sensitive locations schools, churches, hospitals. So I think

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a lot of this is sort of part of the plan.

384
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I think, like, while there's been some blowback to some

385
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of these policies, that generally speaking, like when we hear

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stories of immigrant communities where people are not going to church,

387
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or they're not seeking out medical care, or they're worried

388
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about sending their kids to school or travel too the

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grocery store. Like, I think the optics of these street

390
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raids and things like that are sort of serving the

391
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purposes of the administration. You know, the administration at least

392
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currently is like on board with how that is played.

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Speaker 1: Right, the idea of making the country a less hospitable

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place for people to come, you know, without authorization in

395
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order to come, right, And if that's the goal, then

396
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some of that uncertainty, some of that feeling of you

397
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can't travel and all those things is further accomplishing that goal.

398
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Speaker 4: Right.

399
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Speaker 3: I think the political question that we will get some

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insight into, you know, this year, but probably not fully

401
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until the next presidential election, is, you know, how is that,

402
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you know, how unpopular are these policies. You know, I

403
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think that there's a lot of people who particularly among

404
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like Latino voters, who have swung pretty strongly towards President

405
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:56,880
Trump in the twenty twenty four election.

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Speaker 2: You know, is this.

407
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Speaker 3: Blowing up in Republicans faces or is it not? As

408
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you know, people are very outraged about it.

409
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Speaker 2: Is it going to affect how they vote?

410
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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean, Colleen, it's been interesting, just as you mentioned

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Mayor John Whitmyer and Houston an area. You know, he

413
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is a of course a Democrat elected to a nonpartisan office,

414
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but in a city that has at least in recent

415
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elections voted democratically. You know, that's that's been an interesting

416
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political topic to watch in that city in particular.

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Speaker 5: Mm hm. And you know, Houston was home to one

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of the first big raids of the Trump administration. I

419
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think January or February there was a huge raid in

420
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Colony Ridge, which is a huge neighborhood outside of Houston

421
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where you know a lot of Latinos live, and so

422
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you know, there's outrage here in Houston, but there's also

423
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on the local level a sense of cooperation. Houston Police

424
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Department is working alongside ice and John Whitmeyer is not,

425
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you know, in the way of that, and the state

426
00:24:04,039 --> 00:24:06,000
is also not in the way that the state is

427
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collaborating with ICE as well, and so that's kind of

428
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put Houston in a different position than other more blue

429
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states at cities.

430
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Speaker 2: Paul.

431
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Speaker 1: I mean the other thing that has, of course come up.

432
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You mentioned the client in Minnesota who had their windows broken.

433
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Of course, Minnesota has become, you know, a powder keg

434
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,720
in this world, and you know a lot of concerns

435
00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:38,599
there and in other places about you know, people ICE

436
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:44,079
agents wearing masks, behaving very aggressively in their raids and

437
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,000
things like that. I feel like, you know, there have

438
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been protests against that in places like Houston other Texas cities,

439
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,599
but I feel like we are hearing fewer stories of

440
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,720
that kind of behavior in Texas. Is that because it's

441
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not happening as much here? Is it because for another reason?

442
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I mean, are those are you seeing signs of those

443
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,519
tactics here in Texas? I guess is a better way

444
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of putting that question.

445
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Speaker 4: I haven't seen anybody like like the store in Minnesota

446
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,440
where they're dragged out of their car where it's broken into.

447
00:25:16,519 --> 00:25:20,440
But we have heard stories of like bounty counters, especially

448
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,200
in the area north of Texas called the datos Houston.

449
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I think it's what they are used to call where

450
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they're basically patrolling their people with masks and stuff that

451
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,119
will end up, like you know, catching somebody that they

452
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think might be an immigrant without status and bringing them ties.

453
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But the majority of the rest that I'm seeing is

454
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in Houston is at the jails, you know, after the

455
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ice attainers, it's crossing the vorder checkpoints whenever people are

456
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traveling from Houston. Like I said, many people not knowing

457
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that they're at risk at all because they have permission

458
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to be here, they have work permits, driver's licenses, they

459
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,440
travel from Houston to the border or back. They're being

460
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detained there and at ICE check ins. So I think

461
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with that, I mean, I think that that's the vast

462
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majority of the arrests that I see around here in Texas.

463
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Speaker 2: And then at the courts.

464
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Speaker 4: It was funny one of you mentioned San Antonio earlier

465
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today where I am now, and then I just had

466
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,519
my friend just showed me the ICE bus that's outside

467
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that the San Antonio Demigration court that's here in downtown,

468
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,279
and then where you can see it visibly, it's parked outside.

469
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It's a big white bus. And then Unfortunately, that is

470
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something that is still going on.

471
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Speaker 1: Yeah, two stats, calling from your story. These are national stats,

472
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,880
not just in Texas, but under the Biden administration, eighty

473
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percent of ICE arrests came from county jails, in federal

474
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,839
and state prisons. Under Trump, that number has dropped to

475
00:26:40,039 --> 00:26:44,039
sixty four point one, right, which would indicate that a

476
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higher percentage of the arrest and of course we know

477
00:26:47,079 --> 00:26:50,920
that the arrests have increased significantly have come from you know,

478
00:26:51,279 --> 00:26:54,640
outside the criminal justice system, outside that you know, going

479
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,039
after people who have already been arrested, or you know,

480
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,240
are alleged to be criminals, or any of those types

481
00:26:59,279 --> 00:27:03,599
of things. Similarly, this is actually a Texas stat. Fifty

482
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:08,000
eight percent of people ICE arrested under Biden had criminal convictions,

483
00:27:08,279 --> 00:27:14,200
compared to forty two percent under Trump. So that another

484
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:15,920
kind of piece of ten.

485
00:27:16,079 --> 00:27:19,079
Speaker 3: Half of the people who are being arrested now have

486
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,720
crimes other than immigration offenses.

487
00:27:23,519 --> 00:27:26,799
Speaker 5: And I wrote a story earlier this last or last

488
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,880
year about how, you know, the victims of criminal cases

489
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,680
are being deported Meanwhile the person who you know did

490
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,519
the crime is able to stay and experience due process.

491
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,720
And so it was just like a sign of the times.

492
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 3: I think like part of the goal I think explicitly

493
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,920
in many cases of the Trump administration is to get

494
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,720
people to self deport, to just leave the country. Paul

495
00:27:52,839 --> 00:27:54,759
and Colleen, are you guys hearing from people that are

496
00:27:54,759 --> 00:27:58,200
taking that option? Is that you know, having that ripple effect?

497
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:00,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it is.

498
00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 4: I can speak to my practice, you know, a lot

499
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,920
of the times, the first thing we do when someone

500
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,279
calls us to do a consult where we try to

501
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,000
speak to the family of the person detained, and often

502
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:10,920
they will ask us to speak to the client. We

503
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,799
do a confidential call with the metic Detention Center before

504
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,200
we ever move on with the case.

505
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: And then a lot of the people are hearing.

506
00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:20,839
Speaker 4: Once they hear I don't have well that the government

507
00:28:20,839 --> 00:28:22,319
takes a position, I don't have a right to an

508
00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:24,799
immigration bond. If I'm going to fight my case, I

509
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,759
might be here months. If I appeal, I could be

510
00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:29,079
here more than a year. Then a lot of people

511
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,279
are then taking the decision to self deport and try

512
00:28:31,319 --> 00:28:34,079
to go somewhere else. I've had several Cuban clients that

513
00:28:34,519 --> 00:28:37,319
chose not to fight their case be removed to Mexico

514
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,400
and then from there try to seek asylum in Spain

515
00:28:39,559 --> 00:28:43,359
or in other places. So I think it is implicit

516
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,079
that that's basically the strategy that they're doing. I think,

517
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,880
like the Eleanor said, it's the optics, you know, if

518
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,119
the news well, basically, if all these things are done,

519
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,480
the raids, people have feared to even cross the border.

520
00:28:54,559 --> 00:28:57,880
The number of crossings with that inspection has dropped to,

521
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,839
you know, numbers that we haven't seen in fifty years.

522
00:29:00,839 --> 00:29:02,920
So people are not coming in, and then the ones

523
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,039
that are here, that came in in the last few years,

524
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,119
even that been here for a long time, are scared.

525
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,759
And some people have decided, you know, I went to USCIS,

526
00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:13,440
my asylum case might have not got approved. I do

527
00:29:13,559 --> 00:29:15,400
have a right to go before an immigration judge and

528
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,160
seek it. But I've also seen a lot of those

529
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,160
people decide, like, no, let me go try to seek

530
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,599
asylum somewhere else because they don't want to be at

531
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,960
risk of being detained and then sent back to Venezuela,

532
00:29:24,119 --> 00:29:28,000
to Columbia, to Afghanistan and those things.

533
00:29:29,319 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, and Udiel, my colleague who's on parental right now.

534
00:29:34,079 --> 00:29:37,599
Before he left, he did a really great story on

535
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:43,200
a mother who was detained and her and her husband

536
00:29:43,279 --> 00:29:47,640
left Belize because of some death threats. And they've been

537
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,680
in the country for a long time, and they have

538
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:55,759
children who mixed status citizenship, and she was at a

539
00:29:55,799 --> 00:29:59,640
detention center and contracted hepatitis there and so it just

540
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,119
showed how you know, she and they gave for tail

541
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,119
and all I believe for it, and so it just

542
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,839
got so difficult there that she decided to self deport

543
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,400
and her husband ended up following her and they had

544
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,119
to leave their children here. So they're back in Belize

545
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,119
right now. And it's just an example of how people

546
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,599
are being pushed to self deport. That's the goal, it

547
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,759
seems for Ice. In the Trump administration.

548
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 4: There's another strategy that I wanted to mention to piggyback

549
00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:35,920
off of that, and it's it's the removals to third countries.

550
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:37,359
I don't know if you guys have heard about that

551
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,359
in the news, but the Trump administration has also signed

552
00:30:40,359 --> 00:30:45,079
several agreements and among those Acudor Duras Guatemala, where.

553
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: Like they will get well.

554
00:30:46,559 --> 00:30:49,279
Speaker 4: Basically, the crux of the agreement is if you're applying

555
00:30:49,279 --> 00:30:51,680
for asylum here right then you came in through the

556
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,440
Southern border on most of them that if you do

557
00:30:55,559 --> 00:30:58,160
not fear persecution in the third country which you might

558
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,799
have never been to, we can for go having to

559
00:31:00,799 --> 00:31:03,559
even hear your silent case. So I've had that happened

560
00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:06,559
already twice for on Dudas, and it's happening now more

561
00:31:06,559 --> 00:31:09,680
for Ecuador with somebody from Venezuela or Nikadaigua, for example.

562
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,559
It's one of the cases that we're appealing where he

563
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,279
has a very strong as silent case.

564
00:31:14,319 --> 00:31:17,519
Speaker 2: He was in the news his home. He was in

565
00:31:17,559 --> 00:31:18,440
the news that his home.

566
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,079
Speaker 4: Was ransacked by the National Police or by the Pillar paramilitaries.

567
00:31:23,079 --> 00:31:26,720
I'm sorry, and he had a lot of publications proof

568
00:31:26,759 --> 00:31:30,160
of being a student organizer protest, and then the judge

569
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,000
didn't here is the silent case because DHS wanted to

570
00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:35,440
remove him to on Doudas, where he has never been

571
00:31:35,559 --> 00:31:38,480
and cannot prove that he will be persecuted there. So

572
00:31:38,559 --> 00:31:41,640
we're appealing the legality of these agreements, and it's something

573
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,000
that's going on, but also that I guess the fear

574
00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:47,079
of getting sent to a place I've never been before

575
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,640
is also being used against the asylum seeker to sort

576
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,680
of persuade them to give up on the claim to

577
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,880
and I think they've even said publicly, and I wouldn't

578
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,079
quote that because I don't remember the exact words that

579
00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:02,240
they have to do some like the Trump administration that

580
00:32:02,279 --> 00:32:04,079
said that they have to do something about the backlog

581
00:32:04,119 --> 00:32:06,400
of all these cases of immigration court, which was about

582
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,640
four million, so like we can't give everybody doing process.

583
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,440
I remember hearing that in the news, but that was

584
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,480
the crux of what they said. So I think it

585
00:32:14,559 --> 00:32:17,400
is being done deliberately and that these things are done

586
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,799
so well that in essence, it's it's basically taking away

587
00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:24,119
a lot of the protections that people have, especially those

588
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,000
that are seeking aside.

589
00:32:26,279 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: Well, I know it's hard to speak in too much

590
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:34,640
generalities because every client is different. Every client has individual

591
00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:37,880
circumstances and factors that are you know, leading to the

592
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,200
decisions that they make. But I wonder if you could

593
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,359
just talk a little bit about the the decision making process,

594
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,160
the factors that people are having to consider, and just

595
00:32:48,079 --> 00:32:51,279
you know, seems sort of obvious, but just the life

596
00:32:51,359 --> 00:32:54,759
impact of being caught up in this system is having

597
00:32:54,799 --> 00:32:56,880
on the people you're working with, Like what are you seeing,

598
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,599
how are you seeing people sort of experience this from

599
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,880
the sort of most human level.

600
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's something that's it's really sad, really,

601
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,119
especially whenever it comes to the detentions without bond, because

602
00:33:11,119 --> 00:33:13,599
in the past, you know, if a family member was detained,

603
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,200
even if they came in with that inspection, like I mentioned,

604
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,400
they could most of the time get a bond if

605
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,759
they weren't a flight risk, weren't a danger to a community,

606
00:33:20,759 --> 00:33:23,119
were a threat to public safety. And then now what

607
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,880
happens is I have to have a conversation with that.

608
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,680
I've had many times with a mother that the children

609
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,119
are US citizens at home, maybe the mother does not

610
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,279
have status, or the spouse might have status, and they

611
00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:37,400
detained the husband, the father, and now you say, well,

612
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,160
look there's a chance of him getting out, but it

613
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,279
will take a federal lawsuit if he fights his case,

614
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,119
you know, which he might have a case to fight.

615
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,319
Maybe a cancelation will remover or one of these other

616
00:33:48,319 --> 00:33:51,079
benefits that it will be months in jail. You know,

617
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,000
that's something that affects them terribly because maybe the primary

618
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,839
provider is now detained, and how are they supposed to

619
00:33:56,839 --> 00:33:59,359
provide for the family, for the kids to pay rent

620
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,839
to buy grown trees and then so that really puts

621
00:34:02,839 --> 00:34:04,839
a lot of pressure on people. Have also seen people

622
00:34:05,039 --> 00:34:08,039
on the human aspect that have built businesses, that have stores,

623
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:12,000
have construction companies, have a small businesses and contribute to

624
00:34:12,039 --> 00:34:14,920
the economy of not only Houston, but like of the country.

625
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,079
And then now who's going to run the business where

626
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,639
or like another person that you know whose workers are

627
00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:23,559
scared to come to work because they're scared the ice

628
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:26,920
is going to come, you know, like do a raid

629
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,079
at a construction sete.

630
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 2: You know.

631
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 4: So it's it's really affecting people a lot. So in

632
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,519
the decision making process, they basically have to weigh and

633
00:34:34,559 --> 00:34:37,280
I feel like it's my job to inform them before

634
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,320
you start, this is what we're getting into. And then

635
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,960
so that they're informed about whether or not I choose

636
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:44,639
to fight the case or not. And if you're going

637
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,079
to fight it, then you have to fight it with

638
00:34:46,119 --> 00:34:48,599
everything you got. And if you choose not to that

639
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:51,239
the best thing for my family is is to leave,

640
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,280
then that's the decision that I have to respect from

641
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,519
the people that make it, you know, from the families

642
00:34:56,519 --> 00:34:57,159
that are affected.

643
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: All right, well, Pirella, I know you are very busy.

644
00:35:02,519 --> 00:35:04,800
You you showed us that at the at the beginning

645
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,639
of this Thank you so much for taking the time

646
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,960
to talk us through this and share your experiences UH

647
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,119
And a big thank you as well to you Colleen

648
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,880
UH for for your coverage and for talking this through

649
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,239
eleanor great talking with you as talk to.

650
00:35:19,159 --> 00:35:19,679
Speaker 2: You next week.

651
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: And a big thank you to our producers Rob and Chris.

652
00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:23,960
We will be back next week.

653
00:35:31,559 --> 00:35:31,599
Speaker 4: M