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Speaker 2: Remaining and live man like this man letting butterfly flattening
wing big down in our force.
Speaker 3: Man, it don't cause a tree fall, letting five thousand
miles away. Man, nobody see nobody else you know? And
you got back a night on the Pan. All right.
Speaker 2: After many technical difficulties, Nick, we're finally here. Thank you
for bearing with me. So, Nick Griffin, welcome to the
Jay Burton Show. How are you doing oh very well,
Thank you very much.
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because you're someone that I have from a
distance followed for quite some time, remember hearing about you.
I mean even going back to writings from the past
twenty years, and I had no idea, to be perfectly honest,
you were still around until I stumbled across your very
very good substack. It's sort of the best thing about substack, right,
it's sort of a collectionist of who's who over you know,
the sort of great edge of things. And so obviously
I'm familiar with who you are and what you've done,
but some of my audience might not be. So who
are you and what do you do.
Speaker 3: Well? I'm really the long term figure now in British nationalism.
I joined the National Front, which at the time Britain's
primary nationalist and especially anti immigration party, when I was
fifteen in nineteen seventy four. Had actually been involved in
the Conservative Party, our equivalent of your Republicans for a
couple of years before that. So I've been involved in
political campaigning for more than fifty years. I don't even
feel at all, but there you go. Then I was
involved in the National fronts, first of as an ordinary activist,
then as a serious campaigner leader at one time, and
then switched in the early nineteen nineties from the National
Front which was finished to the British National Party, which
I took from being a frankly bad electoral joke called
bad political joke into being an organization which was the
first serious electoral challenge in electoral insurgency against the uniparty
in Britain from the right briddit they'd ever had. And
for more than ten years, it's more than fourteen nearness
in every single election in Britain there was whatever the
main election issue was, plus the secondary thing was always
about the British National Party and the threat of the
British National Party. So we gave the political elite literally
nightmares for more than ten years. And although in the
end politically we failed, we were the ones who broke
the logjam. Before we were around in a threat, the
old parties were able simply not to talk about certain issues,
particularly about immigration and the grooming gang scandal, and we
forced them to talk about that because they realized if
they wouldn't talk about it and at least pretend to
think about doing something more people would turn to us.
Even more important than that, in the course of blocking
the British National Party, the BBC particularly but the whole
of the liberal media actively promoted Nigel Farage on an
amazing scale. It was frankly, it was almost obscene to
have these anti British pro European Union organizations, especially the BBC,
promoting Farage and it's quite open to block us. So
the law of unintended consequences is a very powerful thing
in politics. He do something for one purpose and you know,
things happened as a consequence he didn't intend, and in
this case, in blocking US, by boosting Farage in UKIP
as it was at that time, they actually created a
monster which in the enforced a referendum, got Brexit, arguably
for good or ell therefore helped get Trump elected because
in his first election campaign, Farage's presence and recent success
was a very big thing, and basically it led to
where we are today, which is, for now a year
the Farag's new party, Reform has been leading the opinion polls,
sometimes having almost as many people supporting it as both
the previous parties of government that's in it, you know,
the Labor Party and the Tories, your Democrats, your Republicans.
This electual surgency sprang from the fact that the British
National Party broke the mold.
Speaker 2: There are several things there that are interesting that you
bring up. One of them is, look, I'm a distant observer, right,
I am not on the ground in your nation, but
there are certain things I pick up from across the Atlantic.
And one of them, there's sort of this this rogue's gallery, right,
this cast of characters that your media loves to hate. Obviously,
Enoch Powell is a major figure there, you know Mosley
if they're particularly well educated. But the BNP is one
of those major boogeymen. So I'm curious to what degree
has that affected you, right, being this sort of national boogeyman, right,
this sort of symbol of eternal evil.
Speaker 3: Interesting question. Before we come on with answer for that,
you might like to notice, probably difficult on your camera.
This is a bust to being not Powell. It's a
bronze bust and it was actually he sat for this sculptor.
There only three of them ever made, and this one
was supposed Powell thought it was great, and it was
supposed to go into the House of Parliament where there's
various you can action in the size of the place.
It's a rabbit's warren, so on various of the window sills,
there's busts of previous parliamentarians. Powell was a great parliamentarian
and it would have been quite normal, vise busts to
have ended up somewhere in Parliament, perhaps in a corridor,
but it should have been there. And of course the
liberal left elite, which includes the Conservative Party, at one
stage his party refused to have him, which is how
I ended up with this bust. It should be sat
in the House of Commons, but it isn't. It's here
with me because Powell was demonized, but not as much
as I was demonized. So as you said, what effect
did it have on me? Well, for at least twenty years,
I didn't walk down a street anywhere in this country
without just looking around as I'm going, just keeping an
eye open. There's a skit there, there's some rubbish there,
so there's a bottle there, there's a brick there, there's
a lump of wood there. That's a potential weapon for
someone against me. Push comes to sharvit to potential weapon
for me against an assailant, so I don't think that's
normal actually to live your life like that. And I've
never done a Caine, yes, So that was really how
it is. My children were young and at school. So when,
for instance, in one of my trials, my daughter had
just gone up to her senior school at the age
of eleven, and they had to repaint the girl's toilets
twice because it was covered in graffiti against my eleven
year old daughter and her dad. My wife was a
very very senior level and very skilled specialist nurse, and
she was repeatedly given top level nursing awards, which the
nursing press would report on. Yes, within twenty four hours
that report was down because the usual suspects stalking me
and everything to do with me would have got into
touch with the nursing press saying get that off. Don't
you realize whose wife that is? She should have had
national awards and one of the awards whereby you go
and meet the queen or king and get it. She
should have had one of those, never did because she
was my wife. So in family terms, it's been quite
hard at times. On the other hand, it's been tremendous fun.
You know. I was told many years ago by one
of the see if people think, my god, he's old
with fifty years of experience. On top of that, I've
got to a degree in the experience of people I
knew when I was young. So when I was young,
there were people involved in the movements who'd been with
Moseley at Cable Street. And the length of time between
Cable Street and then my early involvement was shorter than
the time that I've been involved in politics. So there's
one hell of a lot of experience that I can
go back to. There. One of the old hands so
to me when I was very young, first getting involved,
he said, look, Nick, what you've got to decide with
your life is are you really going to do something
with your life or just go through it? And he says,
how delicate are your audience? Does the occasional Anglo saxon
word right and them on on right? Fine? Believe everyone's born,
everyone eats, so everyone shats, everyone fucks, everyone dies, or
you can do something with your life which actually makes
a difference. And the first thing is to find the
right girl, get married, have children, And the second thing
is to do something that makes a difference. And that
I've done and I haven't finished yet.
Speaker 2: Well, and this is why I enjoy talking to the
early adopters. Relatively recently, I was speaking to Peter Brimolo,
obviously atle bit older than you, and he again has
faced very intense reprisals for what he's done in our country,
and I think for many of us in dissidence, even
myself have faced stiff consequences for that. But the question is, well,
to be honest, how much do you believe it? Do
you believe that your rate or not?
Speaker 3: Yes, certainly believe I'm right. One more thing, by the way,
of course, as well as the physical problems like that,
I've also been in court under the Race Relations Act
the Anti Free Speech Act three times, facing a prison sentence.
The first time I'm out to two years, the second
and third time of up to seven years. And I've
also been in the civil courts with law fair from
the main desionist attack organizations and the British State which
could have put me in prison for contempt at court
and or bankrupted me. I've been bankrupted twice. First time
was actually largely just you know, personal thing, the way
you're trying to get things done and all the rest
of it that was just a property that was properly stuff.
The second time, the bankruptcy was purely law fair by
the British State. So yeah, I've had lots of it,
but no, it doesn't matter because I believe it. Yeah, absolutely,
I was offered a I studied law at Cambridge University,
got the degree, and was a little bit after a
little one after that, offered a place at a really
good barrister's chambers, that's the barristers an advocate, I think
you'd say, But it was on condition that it gave
up politics. So I said, no, that's it. So I
could have had a far more comfortable life somewhere else,
but it wouldn't have been such an interesting life, nor
I believe such a good life, whether you believe my own.
Speaker 2: Trumpet, none at all. And I think that that is
that sort of deal with the devil right was perhaps
it was perhaps more obscured decades ago, because now, and
this is something that it's been kind of interesting to
see because in both America and at least according to
Poles in your nation, the youth is relatively speaking to
the right of their elders, which is sort of an
unusual thing, and I think a large portion of that
is that it is extremely difficult for a straight white,
particularly religious and by that we mean Christian male, to
become part of that coalition. Yes, you can either become
entirely self effacing. You can become embarrassed of yourself. I
guess you could put on address that might help. To
be honest, there isn't really an option, and so that
that bribery right to sort of ignore what you see
going on is much more difficult. And you know, you
could look at that and say, you know, there is
a dispossession in that, and I certainly agree. But on
the other hand, if you believe that you and I
are right, and obviously both of us do incredible accelerant
to our cars. Because again there really are there are
a few options. A choice must be made, so you
mentioned earlier.
Speaker 3: Kind of just come in there, just one more thing
before we going go on that. The one big difference
is that when I made that choice at the age
of twenty one, in a way, I've made the choice
at the age of fifteen, when I decided to go
to join the National Front instead of staying with the
Conservative Party. When I made that choice. I was completely alone. Basically,
there was no one else at school thought like me.
There was no one near the village where I lived,
you know, youngsters thought like me. When I was even
in the National Front, I was then surrounded by young
lads who thought exactly like me, but they were all
working class kids. I was a middle class kid, So
I was victually completely alone in that. Whereas youngsters making
that move now, well, I think in many places you'd
be the odd one out. Now if, as a young lad,
certainly the age of fifteen sixteen, to be a leftist,
to be a multiculturalist, be pro feminist, you'd be a freak.
So to that extent, it's to that extent it's easier.
One more thing on that before we come back to
your next point that if any of your young viewers
now or in the future, of someone finding this perhaps
at some point is in this position, perhaps they've just
been doxed, or they're afraid of being doxed. I put
on substack one of the first things I wrote, it's
a couple of months ago now, a letter to a
young doxed nationalist and honestly anyone, And it was actually
a letter which I wrote to a real young American nationalist.
I won't give his name a few years ago, so
I put it on there, and I really put a
lot of thoughts into that. I value what this young
app was doing. Put a lot of thoughts into it.
Is a lot of my experiences. It's a heartfelt piece.
If anyone's worried about being doxed or is just it's happened,
and it's the end of the world, go on, substack
on mine, Nick Griffin, beyond the Pale and find that
letter to a doxed young nationalist, and I hope it'll
give you some comfort and guidance. So now back over
to you, Jack. Sorry, no, no, not at all. And
that exact dynamic you're talking about where you and many
others were alone right kind of these these voices from
the wilderness, is precisely why I enjoy talking to you,
because you were early adopters, right well ahead of the curve,
identifying trends that it you know, as of current writing
are almost so obvious it's not worth pointing them out
right like, we don't need to, we don't need to,
we don't need to justify claims about replacement migration. You
can look.
Speaker 2: Outside right, whereas you know, forty years ago that was
a prediction. And I think there's a lot to there's
a lot to learn in that several things I want
to get into because I haven't read that piece actually,
but you know, I have been docked. I assume many
people around me have been as well. It's uh, it's
incredibly disconcerted because, of course, as you've said, the press
will never directly threaten you. They'll never say We're going
to bash your brick, your your head in with a brick.
But the implication is there, of course, because it is
we are telling everyone else, however unhinged, where you live,
what you do, what your name is, and the most
uncharitable view of how you are a threat to this
kind of godless you know, satanic globalist state religion. Kind
of joking, but also kind of not when I say that.
And so if you wouldn't mind just kind of briefly
summarizing your remarks, because I'm really interested to get your
take on that, we'll give.
Speaker 3: You a again, a personal anecdote from the dimmer distance past.
Because I've been doxed, and not in the usual way
I've doxed myself. So when I was at school, I
was openly National Front and so on. When I went
to university, for the first few weeks I talked about
politics for people and so on. A fact I because
the National Front was big in the news in nineteen
seventy seven. So I told people within my college, yeah,
I'm in the National Front. Bit of shock. But it
was a rather sports based college. No one really David
Danham so to the college within the within Cambridge University
for the rest of the university didn't know, and Cambridge
University at Oxford as well. They each have a very
famous institution, the Union, which is a debating society. And
I hadn't been at the UNI for more than a
few weeks when there was a debate in the Cambridge
Union on the subject this House would ban the National Front.
So I went in arms. I was a member of
the of the Union. I've been to a few of
the debates, hadn't spoken and this came up, and then
it was you got to the station of the debate
for points from the floor. So I got up and
went to the front and spoke for the motion as
a member of the National Front. I said, because I
wanted to defeat the motion was the point. So I
spoke for the motion, saying, look, we're a revolutionary organization.
All revolutionary organizations have to be hardened by a period
of be legat of persecution and illegality, therefore bringing up
to much of the discomfort of the other people proposing
and supporusing the motion. Anyway, the motion was rejected and
I walked out, and really, other than being quite pleased
with myself because I'd heard several people say that was
a really good speech from the n F bloke, but
that was it. Thought nothing more of it until two
days later a knock on my dig's door and there's
two reporters from the student paper. So the next issue
I'm on the front page. At one point not long
after that, they actually then they printed a picture of
the digs that I lived in, with an arrow an
anti Nazi League garrow, pointing to the window that they
thought I lived in. Funnily enough, it was a window
of another room occupied by the chairman of the College
Gay Society. He was both livid and terrify. It was
the only time we ever spoke to me. But even
as he found out, as I found out, their bark
is far worse than their bite. And the only thing,
the only thing actually frightened of is being frightened. And
they never do anything. Anyone who threatens you, especially anonymously. Yeah,
but well no even even with their with their own
name and so on, anyone who threatens you, they're not
going to do it because they were going to do it.
They wouldn't threaten you because it's put you on alert
and it's put them possibly at legal risks, so they're
not going to So after this, the University Socialist Workers'
Party said I had to be driven out of the town.
There's no campus in Cambridge of Oxford, it's as part
of the town, so driven out of the town. If
you see him, attack him on site, all of this,
blah blah blah. I had an advantage in that by
this stage I was in the university boxing team, so
it didn't occur to them. I was a featherweight than
a lightweight and actually not particularly dangerous, but I was
dangerous enough anyway, so they left me alone. But at
one point, when there was lots of threats, I scouted
around in a builder's skip and I got six or
seven pieces of rebar offcuts of lumps of steel and
I went along my route between my college where we
go to eat and tutorials and so on, and my digs,
and every thirty yards or so, I had a piece
of this rebar stuck in a hedge someway somewhere say
fifty yards. So I was never more than twenty five
yards from one of my pieces of rebar. So if
I get jumped by three or four scumbags, I've only
got to get twenty five yards and I've got the
drop on them. Never needed it. That's the thing. So
you have to have the mentality that you're prepared to
face this and deal with it. And in the end,
someone slaps you around at that age, you play rugby,
you're boxing or whatever, you get more injury. I know
you don't, because you've got that silly, faggy American football game.
You'll pad it up. If you're actually your bricks or
ossies or kiwis or whatever, you play proper rugby, you're
going to get far worse in that probably than someone
slaps you in the street. That's about it. The only
thing you might lose, really seriously, you're going to lose
a career in the law. You're going to lose a
big money making career. Probably, do you know what, the
best thing that's ever happened to you. Because if you
go into that big money making career, the girls you're
going to meet are all from the same background. They've
all been through the university, the top university mill and
if they're not the lesbians, they're certainly feminists, or at
the very best, they're careerists. Even if you marry one
of them, she's not going to consent even think about
having kids till she's thirty eight, by which time it's
probably too late. You're going to get one child too.
At the very most, you'll probably be divorced in four
or five years. In any case, it's a disaster. You're
again to get slightly coarse. If you go fishing in
a sewer, you'll catch a third on your stick, on
your hook andish. If you're looking for a girl, for
a woman, for a life partner, for your wife, in
a university setting or amongst women who've been to university,
you're going to catch a feminist third. You've got. The
place you'll find a decent woman is in a working class,
a lower middle class, white man van type environment, or
at church someone like that, an ordinary decent girl without
the pretensions of one who's been to a best university.
So if you're up there with the money and so on,
you're not going to fight the right find the right girl.
You're not going to have a fami money. And in
the end that sort really counts. You'll have a stack
of money for working. What is it forty five weeks
of the year in the case of law in a
place where you try to jail someone who is innocent
or get someone who's off who's guilty, And in any case,
you're in an airless box with no windows, no lights,
no nothing natural. It's a horri wine on earth? Would
you want to do that to yourself? In order? You've
got enough money so that for four weeks of the year,
five weeks of the year, you can go skiing one
week and you got to Florida another week, go on
a boat and that's it. Whereas if you've got a
proper trade, any dealing with real decent, normal people, and
you're out in the open air, or you're doing things
with decent people instead of criminal scumbags and lawyers who
are among the worst criminal scumbags of the lot. So
when people say to me, he has to saying what
should I do again with my future? I say, now,
for Heaven's sake, don't go to university. Don't get a
mountain of debt and a degree which fits you to
do something which AI can do in any case in
all probability, or which is in a lifestyle which is horrible.
Go out and get a trade where you're in touch
with real people, and if push comes to sharp, if
things go really bad, you've got a cash trade, or
you can go and do a job of someone, you
can barter, and it's just a better way of being.
You're better as an honest working man, especially now as
a white man, than you are in the upper echularms,
which are full of affirmative action. What have you got?
You've got Jews, Indians, blacks, feminists, lesbians, trans they're all
above you automatically because of what they are and because
of what you are. If you're in a trade, how
many out of them are in competition with a plumber,
a brick layer, an engineer, or a motor mechanic.
Speaker 2: Zero.
Speaker 3: You got it for yourself, and the only people you're
in competition with really actually the old boomers. I guess what,
We're all retiring and dying. So it's open. That's where
people need to go. So don't be scared of being docked.
All it stops is a life which you dove in,
thoroughly miserable in any case.
Speaker 2: Well, and to that point, much ink has been spilled
in the American press talking about effectively the last generation,
right millennials and Gen Z who have not been able
to climb the corporate ladder. It's largely due to, as
you said, affirmative action, preferential hiring these sort of ethnic cabals.
For instance, you know there's this I believe it's Bloomberg.
I can't remember who did that peace talking about you know,
after the pandemic, corporate America vowed to hire more people
of color, and they showing that of new hires over
ninety percent are not the largest working demographic in America.
And so this adds another element, which is, let's say
that you know, there's a you know, a young man
listening to you, Nick who says, this guy's an idiot,
he doesn't know what he's talking about. Okay, can you
even do that? Is it actually possible for you to
get that corporate job? Because look, you know before actually
I was actually starting my podcast then. But you know,
when I left university, right with a good degree from
a top program, what I ended up working finance is
completely useless nonsense. But point is right, the sort of
degree that that you know, well meaning older conservatives tell
you that will guarantee you a job, right, that the
sort of you know, technical degrees. I worked for a
year in a factory, right, and there's nothing wrong with that,
but it simply was not an option for me. There
were no jobs to be had. And look, you know
I wouldn't necessarily recommend working at that factory for any
number of reasons. But at the same time, right, again,
is that even a career possibility that's opened to you.
So there's one thing I want to get into because
as an American, this is something that I'm sort of
fascinated and mystified by, which is British class dynamics. Right,
It's a much more class based society, and in discussions
of Brexit, in discussions of nationalism, I see a lot
of just class snobbery, right, the term gammin, right, this
idea that you know, anyone who doesn't want to turn
your island into you know, a multicultural paradise is some
sort of you know, obese, red faced, inbred, alcoholic their words,
not mine, of course. So can you explain because you
mentioned it as well talking about how it's the majority
of NF porters were you know, working class. So can
you explain the relation between class and the issue of
immigration and also the grooming gangs by extension.
Speaker 3: Yes, there's a combination of things, so it's partly it's
primarily two factors are pushing a pull. There's experience, and
there's your social circles and what's good for you, So
it's experience and fear. There's the experience of what you're
living in and throughout the late sixties when it really started,
the seventies, the eighties, of the nineties, the two thousands,
the only people who are having to put up with
large numbers of immigrants, and especially the ones who are
the worst behaved, which generally is either the not the
first generation save West Indians who came in. They were
quite well behaved, most of them, but the second the
you get the second generation kids who instead of going
to a decent having gone to a decent little probably
church school somewhere outside TriNet outside Jamestown have gone to
a sink comprehensive state system school where there's no discipline whatsoever,
and they're feral. You know, they're really really dangerous to everybody.
They're primarily dangerous to themselves and they're fellows before the
dangerous to anybody else. Black on black crime has been
a huge thing in London, say for years, but those people,
or the Pakistani grooming gangs, and also a lot of
it's forgotten at the time that we were talking about
the grooming issue, and even bigger issue was racist tacks
on white lads, so instead of grooming and sex attacks,
it was brutal beatings and stabbings, and both these have
preceded somewhat for various reasons. But in the nineties and
the two thousands especially, these were huge issues, huge problems,
but they only affected working class communities because that's where
the immigrants had gone because housing was cheap, whether they
were buying it or that it was rented, it's where
they were sent. When councils were sending they weren't sending
into bosh areas. They were sending into working class areas.
So the only the people on the sharp end of
the troubles that came with immigrants. A lot of them
are perfectly decent people. They don't give you trouble, but
they're in competition with you for jobs, so it's a
different form of trouble. They're in competition with you for houses.
It's a different form of trouble, but it's trouble with them,
and that only affected the working class until very recently.
So we now get this demonstrations now all over this
country every weekend, almost every day, actually in much more
middle class areas where the government are now putting the
thoroughly illegal boat people have come across across the Channel.
All of them are almost all of them undocumented, males
of fighting age and unvetted as well as automatic. They're
putting them down in quite middle class areas.
Speaker 2: There.
Speaker 3: Some times I see these middle class people coming out
and on the streets and quite posh voices. Because England's
so class ridden, you can tell precisely what class someone
is from, and so the minute they open their mouths,
not even the minutes, twenty seconds, even less than that,
the first vowel gives you the class. And I hear
these people desperately complaining about how it's they can't even
sell their house now, you know, it's terrible, and they
they worry about their daughter coming home from school and
all the rest of it. And I do sometimes think
not one of you people voted British National Party, all
of you fifteen twenty years ago, who would have looked
down in noses that someone who said there would bemp
because it's beneath you, because it's so working class. It's
sewing for a dick. It's thoroughly unacceptable, and you're obviously
stupid and uneducated. And occasionally I got the little bit
of sharpenfreuder. You know, you really shouldn't feel like this,
but sometimes you can't help yourself. So there's that. So
that's one reason it was a working class thing. And
it's now changing quite a lot, not least because it's
not just now communities have got these problems. But again,
middle class white kids, who white boys, who thirty years
ago had no issue at all with immigration. Now like
you in America, they know that even the god of university,
they're at the bottom of the hiring heat. So it's
affecting them, so it's changed them around. The Other thing
is the the social costs are being involved in a
nationalist or anti immigration movement, that it's you will not
you can't get the higher promotion. People will be shocked
at a dinner party and so on. Those social costs
don't affect working class people anything like as much as
they do people from the middle of the upper classes,
because everybody in the path feels the same way. And
I can go into one of the locals around here,
and what they call casual racism do you get from
people most my hair stand on in quite friendly? Yeah,
it's really it's so over the top, you know, cruel
and illegal. Oh no sake, Yeah, there's nothing that I
would have said ever like you're getting here. It's quite routined.
So there's no social cost anymore for or wasn't even
back in the key days. There wasn't that social class
cost for working class people that there was for the others.
And the greatest betrayal of all in Britain naturally is
not well it's partly what, yes, what are elites done
to us, but also the great portrayal of the great
cowardice is what the British middle class and upper middle
class did when all this has happened, which was precisely
nothing because they thought it wouldn't happen to them and
they were afraid to speak out about it. And you
can't have an army, whether it's a physical, fighting military
army or a political army, you can't have an effective
army with our officers on the officer class of Britain
hid for fifty years while our country went down the tube.
Are there only now just started to come out. I
put the nose, but the parapet Yeah, because it's a
little bit safer to come out, and because now they.
Speaker 2: Really need to.
Speaker 3: We wouldn't be in this mess if our middle and
upper classes that showed a fracture at the backbone of
the working class.
Speaker 2: Well to that point, that is very much the story
of immigration here as well, and we're just starting to
see that turn where h one B's right. Other of
these visa programs which allow alleged doctors and engineers, right,
because we're all aware of, you know, the Indian degree
mills and others to replace white collar professional workers at
sixty cents on the dollar. But I think to you know,
my grandfather, who you know, worked as a body man,
right repairing crash cards. His entire career. And it's funny
because you know, thirty years ago he would have described
himself as a socialist. I've heard him say that, but
you dig down and you realize what he actually is.
He's an old school organized labor guy, right, and he
viewed immigrants's scabs basically as someone who could take his
job and do it for less. And now, of course
he's you know, the the most Trump supporting man in America,
But to that point, that was a very low class thing.
People always, you know, talk to him as if he
were crazy, right, as if he were this kind of
you know, stereotypical, you know, crazed redneck. And I think
as well, right on that point, that sort of social control,
that ability to signal what is high status behavior is
particularly effective on the middle class because, as I'm sure
you're aware, middle class people always want to be a
to appear to be upwardly mobile, right, to appear to
have exactly the right beliefs, exactly the right diet, exactly
the right clothing, and even now, right in a situation
where many people in that demographic are being absolutely demolished
by immigration, and I share that shotten for it, right,
there's a certain part of me, and it's like, oh, okay,
so finally you had to feel the problem. But at
the same time, it's almost like that that social reward
is valued higher than their you know, economic or cultural, cultural,
I guess, but the actual you know, money in their pocket,
so to speak. It's incredibly frustrating. One of the other things,
and I'm glad you brought it up, is the the
middle class in Britain is incredibly incredibly left wing in
a way that I have sort of a hard way
or a hard time understanding. I think of like the
Guardian reader type. Is that because of that sort of
social pressure or is there another dynamic at play there.
Speaker 3: I've you've got to differentiate them from the rest of
the middle class to be so accurate and fair as well.
This is the the flip side of the welfare mothers.
This is a class who are almost exclusively working for
the state. They're there, there's a huge self interest. They've
all got their little empire or their salary is reliant,
their job is reliant, their mortgage, everything is reliant on
them fitting in to the management side of the welfare state.
So it's the management side of the socialist experiment of
the socialist utopia, and they have to be loyal to
that because otherwise they're in deep, deep trouble. And then
I ain't very often because people generally, unless they're psychopaths,
they want to feel that, you know, they're good people.
So there's all this pressure to rationalize what they're doing.
So they're there now, for instance, teaching kids all the
trends stuff, and they know that's wrong, but because their
job depends on it, they'll rationalize that that well, it's
you know, it's it's all about tolerance and you know,
all the rest of it. So there's a huge kind
of self interest in the left wing middle class. But
the left wing middle class, the Guardian readers and so on,
as I say, they are if they're not in the
the welfare management sector, they are in the media. That's basic.
That's basically it. The rest of people. If a middle
class person, as it's a the owner of a small business,
the people working for themselves or working in private companies,
whether it's salesmen or whatever, they they're nothing like Guardian readers.
The Guardian sells so few papers it's almost gone now
because it's all question of online and adverts. When for
the last. The Guardian only survived the two thousands, the
two thousand and tens because because it was lost making
all the time, the only thing that kept it afloat
was basically every Thursday there was the Guardian Jobs a
special huge extra section and every single council, particularly the
labour ones. But even in the conservative run councils, the
administration is run by the left, so that the right
wing reactionary types might control the council chamber, the administration
is run by the left. So every single job, for
every every single advert for every single job was put
through the Guardian. That's what kept the Guardian going because
it had a circulation anker with something one hundred and
seventy thousand. That was it. So this isn't a huge
not a huge class, but you know the Guardian readers.
Now it's bigger now because it's now online and so
that's how it survives. But it's not an enormous class.
It looks big and it's got enormous power, and I
suppose what is rather large because okay, some of the
people working for the state are sweeping street men. In
all the nurses or whatever, they are thirty decent, normal people,
and they think are you and I but the people,
the management class and so on. Yep, they are extremely
left wing for the reasons I've said so.
Speaker 2: Nick, this is sort of an odd situation, but I
think our program is going to kick us out in
just a few seconds. For those wondering technical difficulties, I
will be sure to include everywhere people can find you,
and I'll have to have you on again where we
can discuss without all of these irritating technical difficulties. But
I just wanted to say because I think we have
seconds left, so slight shift of pace. As you guys
can probably tell, this is a different recording. We had
some technical difficulties now sorted, but these recordings will be
stitched together. Just an update if the conversation seems to
end off and begin somewhere completely alt. But Nick, one
of the things that I have noticed, Look, you know,
I'm American. The American nationalists scene and the European and
British nationalist scene certainly has some crossovers, but there's some
significant difference. And one of the ones that I'm curious
to get your opinion on is the relative role of
religion America, especially for a first world country is quite religious,
unusually so, and our nationalists tend to lean into that.
I see less of that certainly coming from the continent,
but you know, relatively speaking, less coming from England as well.
So if you could, could you speak to you know, obviously,
you know, we can talk about your personal relationship to religion,
but how what is the intersection like in your country
between you know, right wing nativist politics and religion.
Speaker 3: Well, it's something that's shifting very, very rapidly, so it's
actually this is a huge question. So let's step right
back to the sort of the origins of it. Personally,
I'm a Christian. I haven't always been. While I was
almost up an Anglican, of course, and then drifted away
from that. Regarded myself in my early twenties as the
sort of sort of ecopagan, slightly odinist type that appeals
to many young nationalists, you know, has done for decades,
and then, particularly as I look more at the problem
with Islamification, the answer that Christianity is the way to
oppose this became stronger and stronger. So I started off
sort of as a cultural Christian and then became more
of a believing Christian personally, I would now be an
Orthodox in a Russian Orthodox Christian for a number of reasons.
Although it's got the word Russian in it, it's actually
very much a national church in each place. It speaks
to me in all sorts of ways. But coming from
an Anglican origin, I simply can't believe in transubstantiation the
idea that are the bread and the wine become literally
in the body of Christ. I'm sort of too Protestant
for that innately, so I feel I can't, without being
a hypocrite, say I'm absolutely Orthodox. But that's sort of
where I am, really and truly definitely a believe a
humble believing Crists. Not a particularly good one, of course,
but there we go. As for the cultural differences between
America and Britain, it's shrinking to some extent, certainly in
the British nationalist scene, which is becoming increasingly religious, to say,
partly as a reaction to the islam adicle. So also
the blatantly atheist problem, all the trans and all the
rest of it. It's not really a political ideology we're facing.
It's a different form of religion. So therefore it's natural
for people to drift back and move back towards Christianity.
But the fundamental difference between America and Britain is speaking
as a Christian and with the greatest respect to America,
every religious lunatic from the whole of Europe went to
America for four hundred years. So you are selectively bred
for religious mania in a way that none of the
rest of us are. So it's actually something that American
nationalists of a pagan bent need to really understand. Ye,
your people are deeply fundamentally in every way, shape and form,
if you've got any routes at all, they are Christian
and Christian dissident at that, which is really what you
want to make revolutions and rebellions out of. So that's
the difference. Having said which I reiterate again in well,
going back to when I was on the steps of
Leeds Crown Court, when I was being prosecuted with a
potential seven year sentence for speaking out about the grooming issue,
I bought to that someone sent me just out of
the blue. It just came addressed to Nick Griffin Leeds
Crown Courts. Every day the usher of the court brought
me a big pile of post from all over the
country and for all over the world, and people had
written to me because they've seen what was going on
to support me, and some unknown persons sent me a
wooden cross about that bee. It's a plain Protestant wooden cross,
and I took that and I used that held up
to the big BNP crowd outside the court at one
point and we prayed the Lord's Prayer and so on,
and that was really the first public iteration of connecting
Christianity and nationalism in Britain, I think almost ever, apart
from the fact that National Front in years back used
to hold a Remembrance Day service in central London, which
is obviously automatically a religious thing. Apart from that, Mosley
and Co. And then the early National Front, it was
all It wasn't anti Christian, but it was completely cut off.
It was absolutely the old English or Protestant tradition of
separation of church and state. And that first time outside
of Leeds Crown Court was the beginning of that change.
And it's now gone a long long way, so that
when I was your age, a young nationalist professing Christianity
would have in Britain would have been on the earth.
Is this you know? It's an individual quirk in Peter Heart.
It's got nothing to do with the rest of us. Now,
I would say it's probably more common than not. So
this is a big change. So we're moving more towards
being like you are in the States.
Speaker 2: On that point, it is true, right, America is effectively
a hot bed for everyone else's religious nutcases. And one
of my favorite theses you know about the formation of
America is that of Albion seat, where you can sort
of trace these different American regional cultures to areas of
your nation. And the northern Southern divide is very much
a religious divide, right. The North, which now is quite
a Christian was effectively all of the most innovative forms
of religion, right, the Quakers, the Shakers, the Puritans, and
you know, over the course of two hundred years, they
effectively burned themselves out of religion.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: You see a great many churches there that are now
apartments and daycare centers and the like. But they kept
the zeal, and that zeal has been applied towards progressive
politics and ruining everyone's life, and they really ever stopped it.
And honestly, look, I am neither orthodox nor pagan. But
I have a great many friends who are in both
of those groups, so I'll be polite, of course, but
I understand the especially in the American context, the revulsion
towards mass market Protestantism, particularly as regards the Zionist issue.
I one hundred percent understand it, yep. But at the
same time, the sort of best of America, right the
flyover states are quite religious, and you're really never going
to get them to stop doing that. And so if
your project involved some sort of you know, mass odentic conversion,
I mean, it's not going to happen. It's not going
to happen, you know, regardless on that point. And it
is an interesting Joel Davis, who I don't pretend to
know well, although you know he is undergoing his own persecution.
You know, it says this, and I'll butcher the quote,
but he talks about, you know, the effectively white countries
were made great under the Church and without that day
of withered and something I notice, and this is applies
to you know, both the kind of very unchurched areas
of my country as well as you know, continental Europe
and England as well, where regardless of why, and we
can debate why it seems that the only people actually
having children, actually reproducing their culture are extremely religious one
way or another. And look, I am, you know, a
believing Christian. I try not to speak on it too much,
just because no one should look to me or ice
on theological issues. But at a at a very basic level,
I don't understand how you replicate a culture through generations
without that, setting aside any theological claim. And you know,
we are in an era of massively declining birth rates,
so on a fundamental level, I don't understand how you
escape that without some sort of religious tradition.
Speaker 3: I think that's absolutely true. Well it's it's a clear fact.
There's there's this close correlation betweeniosity and large families, and
there's no way around that. But in addition, we're going
into a period very clearly where people are going to
be persecuted, where the auld certain is a falling apart.
Whether we end up with some kind of technocratic, anti
human dictatorship or we're just increasingly failed states, it's going
to be an uglier, rougher world. And for people to
have children it's hard enough now, but to have children,
to have the faith, to have children in a world
that is patently ugly and getting worse. It's not a
rational decision to have children, I'm afraid it can only
either be based on a selfish love and wanting to
preserve and extend your own line, which is a very
very good thing. But more than that, it's going to
be backed up by something else. It's not going to
be backed up by the eventual European recovery. The Rayconquista,
which fundamentally, even the Ray Conquistor of Spain wasn't just
by any means, about military ray Conquista. It was about
the actual Christian Spanish having a higher birth rate than
the areas of the occupied Spain, which were basically afflicted
with Islamic systemic cultural failure. The birth rate comes from
that Christianity, and especially in hard times, where else can
it come from. So yeah, even if someone doesn't believe,
like you said, leave aside the theological stuff. Even if
someone doesn't believe, even if they look back and say, well,
Christianity gave us liberalism, universalism, feminism, communism, whatever. Even if
they don't counter that by saying no, Christianity gave us
the things that you regard as are people's highest achievements,
whether it's the cathedrals and the music and art of
of the High European period, or whether it's the actual
wonders of modern technology. All of it comes from Christianity.
But even if you set aside the rights and the
wrongs of that, and the theological rights and wrongs, you've
just got to look and think, well, if I was
going to on this sheet of paper work out the
other fifteen or twenty five points whatever it is for
our recovery, because the birth, a higher birth rate is
so much part of it, you have to look, where
is that higher birth rate going to come from? And
there's only two possible answers. Really, there's an ideological commitment
by a state saying, right, we're going to pay women
to stay at home and have lots of children, We're
going to tax people who don't have kids, and all
the rest of it, or it has to come from
the individual or the community, since very clearly there is,
and Trump's rowing back even on what little has been
done in Minnesota shows the case when even a man
who basically is the nearest to a Roman emperor that
we've seen for two thousand years, when even he can't
actually get to begin to get grips with addressing the
demographic problem. It's patently obvious it's not going to come
from above, from the state. It can only come from us,
people like you, your children, my grandchildren, can only come
for us. I mean, so, what's the key thing on
the list which if you were going to design a
program which will give those people the biggest chance of
having bigger families, you would say, well, it's got to
be religiosity. So do we want them to be fundamentalist Jews?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: Thank you? Do we want to be fundamentalist Muslims? No?
Thank you? Do we want them to be fundamentalis Christians?
Well that is absolutely in line with us and our heritage,
and it's right too, so of course.
Speaker 2: Well, and look, I don't exactly have a head for
facts and figures, but this has stuck out well to
me that the heritability of right wing politics is about
eight and ten. So look, you know, we'd want it
to be one hundred ten out of ten, but simply
not realistic. Do you have an eighty percent chance that
if you are of opinions that you and I share
that will be passed down to your children? For the
progressive types, it's closer to six and ten. They also
tend to reproduce much less, so you can see over
time this is selection. Now obviously, like the fly in
the ointment is immigration. Clearly that's why they are so
desperate to cram it down our throats. It's to effectively,
you know, in their minds and politics, right, just simply
replace who they rule over to become the gayest kings possible.
But I mean, it's one of those things that obviously
there's a literal like political advantage, but to your point,
it's really not a rational decision. Very few people get
into this by you know, tabulating figures on a spreadsheet
and saying, oh, well, this will increase my net. I
don't know even know how you'd measure such a thing
over the course of my life. But it really is
a war of belief, right, And this is the thing
that I've found kind of interesting watching you know, and
it happens, and pick your favorite event from the headlines
that at a certain point the actual material facts of
what are happening don't really matter because there's so much
spent on it. There's so many different narratives on it.
So for instance, right, these as I'm sure you've heard
several people have gotten shot in Minnesota. There's you know
a number of people who've spent hours of their time
going through that event forensically. But it really doesn't matter.
What it comes down to is do you believe a
nation ought to have a border? Yes or no? Because
if you do, okay, even if someone got shot wrongly
that's a horrible occurrence, does not change that fundamental belief,
yes or no. And so at a certain point, really
it's it's who believes it more and who has more
political will. And to your point about Trump, that's been
the thing that's been very disconcerting. And I don't look
to the GOP as you know, any sort of savior,
but to see them lose their will so easily versus
these people, who, even if they're not religious, have this
sort of cultish devotion to their politics. To be honest,
it is, you know, very much a contest of will,
if you see what I'm getting at.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so. And I think but what's particular, what
I think is particularly alarming, certainly looking for a distance,
and I think it should be alarming for Americans, is
that the Trump GOP, the remigrationists have given way before
the other side had even really got started, because you
haven't seen anything like the scale of the trouble there was,
for instance, all the Black Lives riot matters, Black Lives
Riot Matter riots. There's been nothing like the level of
trouble you could get what Antifa are actually organized to do.
There hasn't been that much pushback, and already they backed
off and run away. Yeah, it's quite a stunning thing,
it really is. So well. The saying I've adhered to
for many, many years came from King Charles the First
shortly before he well, sorry, the other Strafford, who was
the great advisor of King Charles the First, who even
before the English Civil War started, Charles threw his great
advisor to the wolves to save his own skin, and
the other Strafford, before he had his head cut off
by the Parliament's side, said put not your trust in princes.
And I think that that's an extraordinarily valuable piece of
advice for people. So if you're not going to put
your trust in princes, in which our class also the
trumps of this world, you must put your trust somewhere.
So to put it in yourself is a monstrous he
go again there's only God and the traditional faith and
generally in your people. And if you have faith in God,
and whether it's with faith in God or not faith
in your people, then you have to think, well, therefore
the people must continue. So it comes back to having children.
And as you said, it can't be a rational an
accounting thing of adding up certain percentages or whatever. It's
just the thing which you should do. It's also someone older,
I can tell you having four children was a tremendous
challenge at times and quite hard, but a wonderful thing,
a joyous thing, and a thing it Actually you can
be as material as you think you are until you
have children, and then when you have children, you suddenly
then find that actually you were very immateure and now
you're at least on the road to being mature. But
I can tell you, as also the grandfather of grandchildren,
that they're even more fun. And the biggest reason to
have children and to push to have grandchildren isn't because
in the end, because it's it's because what God God demands,
or because what's good for your people. It's just because
it's fun. It's what we're designing to do. So if
I know so many youngsters, young relatively young men approached
me through substack and and say, you know, I'm thinking
about this, but yeah, can I do it? And if
I get married to this girl, what happens in ten
years time, if we get divorced or something like that,
forget it all. Just have children because it's the most
joyous and wonderful thing you can possibly do with your life.
And if the very worst comes to the worst and
you end up divorced and your wife takes half your
money or more because of the way it's all stewed
against men, most of it it's going to go to
your kids in one way or another. And when you
die or shortly before you die, doesn't matter how much
material wealth you've got left, or how much has been
taken off you, fairly or unfairly. All accounts at that
point is the bit of work that you're able to
do while you're alive. If you're a very lucky and
unusual man, perhaps things you said or written which actually
go on to affect future generations. But for ninety nine
percent of us, the only thing which survives your life
going out is the children and grandchildren great grandchildren that
are left behind you. So stop worrying about it, just
get on and do it. Well.
Speaker 2: It's something I think, And I'm lucky enough that all
of my grandparents are still alive. My family has a
relatively short generational turnaround. But you know, I speak to
my grandparents and you know the situations that you know,
they found themselves in when they were first married, they
were all very young, they were all very poor, and sure,
you know, they were baby boomers, they were able to
ride the wave of this great prosperity. But still, I
mean my grandfather, who I have a great relationship with,
he was unexpectedly and quickly married to my grandmother. I'll
leave it at that. And then when on a double
circumnavigation of the globe, didn't want his son until he
was a year and a half old. And they're still married.
They have, you know, a great many grandchildren. And you
look at that and you're like, okay, well, any situation
I could find myself in is probably not that difficult.
They were fine. I'm not going to say that any
individual moment was easy or pleasant or ideal if you
were designing it, you know, in a lab right, your
perfect life. But at a certain point, all right, if
you're lucky you make it to eighty mid seventies, right,
if you have my genetics, maybe not even that far right.
And so at a certain point I understand the desire
to be prudent, right, to make the correct decision, But
are you going to wait ten, fifteen to twenty years
to do that. There's a limited amount of time, and
you know, especially when and this is something I think
it's true of both of our countries. The prognosis for
the near to you know, middle term future doesn't look great.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: It's not like there's a golden age, you know, one election,
two elections down the line. So it's like, well, to
be honest, why not start now, Because any of these
trends you're pointing to, you know, the feminism, the demographics
are only going to get worse in the short term.
So if you're waiting for that perfect moment, you're going
to wait until you're it's too late. And again, don't
don't take that as an invitation to you know, settle
down with a stripper or anything. It's not my point
at all, but to say, look, if you're waiting for
this kind of perfect hand of cards to be dealt,
you'll be waiting forever. And the other thing that I
think is, and sorry I'm just monologuing at you, Nick,
but we got going, is I think that there there
is a lot of analysis that's correct about the you know,
the corrosive nature of these left wing radicals right there,
their urge to subvert, to attack everything. And you know,
people will say, oh, you know, older generations don't realize it,
and that may or may not be true. But if
you were not fighting that right, if you're just waiting
for that perfect day, you're waiting for that perfect institution,
well you're just seating ground. So at a certain point,
and my friend Ernst Fanziel conscious caricles South African guy
involved with the you know, solidarity movement down there, has
this great essay called dig a Trench making exactly this
point where it's like, look, you know there is a
tactical decision to retreat, whether physically in an institution, in
a job. But you don't do that to keep running
away forever. You go back to build a trench, to
build something, yeah, defendable. And I think that that is,
you know, very much the attitude to have and it's
why I enjoy looking to the South Africans who have
even in our you know, relatively degraded situation, have it
much worse than either of us. And they still managed
to produce some sort of culture, a big ring, yeah.
Speaker 3: And much much worse. Couple of points arise from that.
They have it much worse than our great grandchildren would
have or even great great great grandchildren. Because when we
become a minority in the case of America, in what
fifteen years time, you're still going to be forty nine
percent or forty percent or even twenty five percent. You're
not going to be half a percent, you know, so
and half a percent in a society with everyone around you,
and that yes, I know there's tribal differences, but everyone
around you for a white so that basically, apart from
in the middle of the cities, everyone around you comes
from one other ethnic block, which is potentially very hostility
for various reasons. Even when we're quite a small minority
in the western countries, that's not going to be the case.
We're going to be surrounded by all sorts, not by
one block, but by half a dozen different blocks. Most
of them just test to test each other and fear
each other more than us. As a matter of fact,
so as long as we're a cohesive block within that block.
It's far from ideal. But we're not as bad as
the South Africans as badly offers them.
Speaker 2: And as you.
Speaker 3: Say now they are for many white nationalists in Britain,
Europe and so on, they're figures of some figures to
look up to because of how they haven't given up
and they're producing some of the most positive stuff there is.
Why actually partly because they're really looking at the sharp end,
so they haven't got the luxury of pretending, well, tell
you what, we can test elections and at the next
election we may take power in South Africa. It's so
patently absurd they can't get down that, you know, down
the electoral route. The other thing before we move on
to come back to what you were saying, talking about
how the boomer generation you had us, or had your
parents or whatever, there's a strong, rather unfortunate tendency among
young patricks to look back. You know. It's this sort
of this age war thing. Are the boomers you know
you you know, boomer, you know, you're responsible for all
this and they think they're saying, well, it was easy
for the boomers to have children, because, like you said,
you know, there was this there was this enormous economic
prosperity thing going on. That's with hindsight. If you look
at the decision of a family of Americans, perhaps a
husband had just come back from war in the late
nineteen forties, they've been through a depression, a catastrophic depression,
and the war. What on earth was there in their
life experience. We said, you know what, we're going to
have kids because we're about to enter the most materially
wonderful time that anyone on the planets have a They
didn't know that. People in the nineteen sixties having children. Likewise,
things have been going well for eight or nine years,
or they've gone well for eight or nine years before
in the past, includingly just after the First World War,
there was an economic boom for a few years. So
when you look back and think what it was easy
for the boom was they could have kids because you know,
it was this wonderful time of prosperity. They didn't know it.
They had children just because it was the natural thing
to do, and because in many cases, particularly in America,
to one extending other, as Christians, they believe the Lord
will provide or just well, I want to do it
because it's the natural, normal thing to do. And I
think that we're talked earlier on about the way in
which the progressives have poisoning everything, absolutely right, and one
of the worst examples, most powerful examples of how they've
poisonous poison things, is how they've managed to undermine young
people's just natural instinct just to go and have kids,
you know, it's and to feel that perhaps we shouldn't
bring kids into this world because it's such a mess.
That's the very reason if you think you're going to
go potentially into a civil war, that's the very very
reason why you should have lots of kids, because they
can help win the civil war, or for that matter,
if you really think it's going to come to that,
you have to face reality. If that's what you think
is coming, then one of your sons is going to
die in that civil war. Problem For the liberals, at most,
they've only got one son. That's their line wiped out,
even if he's a son by the time if he's
still a son. Indeed, if you've got five or six,
then well, in pure harsh DNA genetic terms, that's the
genetic terms. That's the reason you got five or six children,
because several of them aren't going to make it to adulthood,
so you have to have the larger number. So for
every reason, stop worrying about it, stop thinking about it,
just get on and do it.
Speaker 2: Well. Additionally, and this is something that I have an
article halfway finished to I need to actually buckle down
and get ridden. But in a way, that premise the
boomers had it so good I want what they have
is understandable. But you're sort of accepting a poison pill
that the quality of your life is directly material. That's
what matters as because look, I'm more than willing to
accept that. You know, if you and I got exactly
what we wanted, you know, massive remigration restrictions on any
number of different things, it's entirely possible that we would
lose a lot of the benefits of globalization. Right like
this podcast, Mike that I'm speaking to you through. I
bought off the Internet. It was manufactured by Chinese child
slaves for next to nothing. And if I were to
get everything I want, I might well be poor. I
would not be able to make as many consumer choices.
I would have less disposable income. And so you could
look at that and say, oh, well, my life would
be worse, and it's like, well, no, there is something
that matters more than simply that material condition. And so
even if we steal man that position and we say, yes,
the Baby Boomers were relatively the wealthiest generation in history, well,
two things. One that let us hear right, even if
we could simply turn the clock back, you know, there
is such a thing as Dutch disease. But also look
like we have to accept that there may well be
a trade off, and that trade off may be you know,
relatively speaking, less wealth. But in my mind, what matters
more is being connected to a culture, having a people,
having something alive that you are a part of, instead
of simply you know, maximizing how many consumer choices you
can make, you know, being able to you know, participate
in the great global strip mall. And I think that
it's it's always tragic when I see people who are
accurately critiquing the system but ultimately share the exact same,
just core premise. They are simply aggrieved that they are
not on the receiving side, that they are not getting
the gibs. And I again, I have a great many
friends who are white nationalists. I'm not talking about them,
but you see that in this circle as well. Or
it's basically they want gibbs for white people. You know,
they want to be you know, receiving all of those
things and look like you know, obviously I'm not some
you know, free market lunatic libertariat. But if you've ever
been around recipients of welfare, I'll leave it at that.
In America, that's not a good life. Sure, it is
not the same problems you're receiving now, you know, with
the racial discrimination, but that clearly breeds its own problems.
And I care enough for my people, I care enough
for my culture that I don't want to see. You know,
this is kind of like a Jesse Jackson for white people,
right that reduced to simply another one of these kind
of pathetic grievance groups. Unconnected, but it is something that
I do worry about a lot when I look at,
as you said, the kind of younger patriots. One more
thing I'm actually curious to get your thought on. You
mentioned islamification right in your country. We're a little bit
behind the curve there, but boy, are we catching up.
And one of the things that and I realized it
is difficult to talk about, not you know, for our sakes,
but for the sake of YouTube that you see in
this discussion is the interaction between opposition to Islam and
support for a certain Middle Eastern democracy. So obviously I
feel like I can I can guess your opinions on
both of those those topics. But how do you go
about threading that needle? Because it seems very easy to
fall into the counter g hod playbook. I mean, I
don't know if you know him, but like I look
at figures like you know Tommy Robinson and others and
not looking to I don't know the guy. I'm not
trying to trash talk him, but you see where he
gets his money, right, So how do you go about
threading that needle? In England?
Speaker 3: Well, I wrote a report What Lies behind the English
defensely in twenty twelve, when taking research from the Internet
because material was, if he dug far enough, was out
there in the public domain already. This report proved conclusively
that the whole EDL Tommy Robinson thing was from the
very beginning set up by very dark forces from the
United States based in the United states, absolutely no question
about it. And it's one of those things that it's
even more relevant now than it was then when you've
got It's not just Tommy by any means. It's a
huge range of opinion formers in alternative media, ranging from
total crackpots posting anonymously on social media and so on,
right through to some of the major television corporations who
are pushing this clashes of civilizations. The Muslims are going
to come and they're going to take over your society,
Your grandchildren, granddaughters will be wearing burkers, et cetera, et cetera.
And yes, there is obviously a problem with Islamification, and
there are whole areas of British cities which now look
more like Karachi than they do traditional Britain. Yes, that's
a problem. But in the end, I say how do
you thread it? Will you say, well, where did this
problem come from? Because to go around trying to deal
with the problem without understanding its origin is a very
foolish position. Whatever the problem may be, If it's a
slight electric shock you're getting in your bathroom and you
only worry about the shock that the TAP's giving you,
a bit of a shock, rather than thinking where's that
electricity coming from and what's wrong. You're never going to
solve the problem. Sooner related you're going to you know,
too much electricity is going to come through, you're going
to fry. So you've got to look at the problem.
And of course when you look at the problem, you
find that is the Islamification of Europe is part of
the browning of Europe. And this is not some just
natural quirk or catastrophe. It's been planned and imposed upon
us by the very people who are now saying you've
got to go and fight those wicked Muslims. So it
is very, very difficult to deal with because our people
have a genuine problem with is Iramification and with large
numbers of Pakistanis and so on. But again you're not
going to deal well. You can try and deal with
that problem with fighting them and the people who are
pushing us towards civil war. If they were pushing us
towards a civil war on the basis that look, we're
going to have it at some point, it's better to
have it now, or there's still relatively more of us
than them, and if they were saying, which people could
from the safety of America. If you're going to have
a civil war, you need in order to win it,
you need to begin now doing ab C and D.
They we're doing that have some sympathy for it, but
they are absolutely clearly trying to push and pushure us
into a civil war, certainly in Western Europe and Britain,
not on the basis that if we win it, we
can get country back, because these very sane people are
all saying that immigration from Africa and India, as long
as they're not Muslims, that's absolutely fine. And the thing
the problem with the Muslims is they won't integrate. If
they'll only integrate with us, so their children will marry
our children, wouldn't it be wonderful. But they're standing in
their own communities insisting on their Sharia law. Well, I
say thank God for that, because if they were simply
part of our melting pot, our melting pot would be
even more corrosive and efficient in terms of getting rid
of us. So these people do not have the interests
of our people at stake. So I'm damned if I'm
cold to fight their war any more than I want
to fight the other side of the global elites. War
new against Russia and Ukraine. Absolutely not none. None of
their wars have been any damn use. They've all We've
been lied into all of them. And all our people
get out of wars is suffering death and higher tax bills.
And it's the same with the whole lots of them.
So you have to try and alert people to do it.
In the end, I think we're reaching the points in
Britain where huge numbers of people are not just hardcore nationalists,
but even broader than that. The people actually comment in
the newspaper and the comments sections of mainstream newspapers, so
many people have got a pretty good grasp of what
is going on that we're getting to the stage where
we need to stop. And it's always tainting because it's
such outrage and you feel it's you've got to try
and wake every last person up. But we probably need
to stop talking so much about the problems. If people
don't understand the problems by now, they're probably either so
stupid or so cowardly are or so scared that they're
not going to understand them, or they're going to keep
on pretending they don't understand them. We need to talk
about practical solutions, which are people, whether it's individual activists,
families or communities, can do in their own lives to
to advance our cause. So especially as certainly in Britain
anywhere where you've got the extreme repression now of freedom
of speech. But even in the States, so you still
got the Second Amendment if you get a Democrat government
in two years time. How long that will last is
another matter. But even regardless of that, when you say
you have to be careful about what you're speaking about
because of YouTube and so on, and similar in you
even more so Facebook, et cetera, et cetera, you're already
under a degree in the United States of repression of
your freedom of speech. So it becomes more and more
the more you talk about the problems, the more you're
likely to face the shadow bands and so on, and
the restrictions, which means you reach few people. So that's
where as I say, I think we get into the
stage when all of us really need to make a conscious,
disciplined effort to talk less about the problems and more
about the practical answers in our own lives.
Speaker 2: To that point, I mean, you're entirely correct about that.
That relationship between I mean starting wars, you know, sort
of transforming demographics, and then you know, demanding even more
efforts to you know, now correct certain accesses again for
that same end goal. I mean, in my case, there
really were no Muslims in America before September eleven. Of course,
you know, a few here and there, but certainly in
no real numbers. And you know, I think of talking
to one of my friends. I was too young. I was,
you know, a child during most of the Global War
on Terror, but I knew a great many people who
were involved, particularly who now are in kind of their
mid to early forties. And I remember talking to one
of them and he said, you know, I saw a
lot of horrible things. I you know, went through a lot,
and I never had shell shocker PTSD except for once.
And he said that he had come back. He was
in California, and he went to Walmart and he rounded
the corner and there were three women in burkas yea,
And of course it was you know, sort of a
nervous system level response. But he described that as a
very disheartening revelation, like wait a minute, you know he
had bought the line hook you know, hook line and
sinker and you can't blame him, right. The guy was
seventeen doing what he thought was right, and you know,
those individual actions he did were heroic. But at the
same time, these guys got played. We all got played.
And now you know that line of we fight them
over there so we don't have to fight them over here.
You're like, well, you brought everyone back. You know, everyone
every time. You know, there was one in northern Virginia
not too long ago, or an Afghan guy you know,
shot up a number of police officers. There was another
one out of somewhere in the Midwest. I think it
was Detroit. I can't remember. I could name almost any
city and it would be true even if it's not
the exact one I'm thinking of. And it is very
much like, wait a minute, I thought this was the
whole point. And of course, you know, people have been
drawing attention to that for a long time. But you know,
the idea that, oh now it's time to you know,
get on side for the next conflict. You're like, wait
a minute, I don't necessarily like the Islamification of my nation,
but fool me once, fool me twice. And about talking
about about solutions, I think there's something to that. And
you know, I'm part of a you know, a fraternal
group in the US, the Old Glory Club, and it's
been crazy. I was, you know, one of the founding
members and to watch it grow in you know, a
few years, from fifteen guys in a conference room to
now I went to my local chapter. There's you know,
dozens up at this point in my small town and
there are sixty guys from around my community hanging out together.
And it's it's incredibly positive because you know, I'll and
I'll probably listen to this and send me a message.
But I met a guy there who's, you know, cabinet maker,
so he's making cabinets for me, and it's like, okay,
well there's no political advantage to that. But all of
a sudden, it's like, well, I've got a network. I've
got dozens of guys that I can you know, reach
out to. Sure in the immediate next two weeks term.
Does that get us some political victory. No, But at
the same time, it's a way better solution than sitting
at home getting upset about what you see on the screen.
You have guys that you can you can talk to,
you can build something with and also you now have
a you know, a huge network of support, and to me,
that sort of and you know that the pagan types
referred as to you know, building your tribe. You know,
there are other terms for it as well. But to me,
that is both the easiest thing to do and the
best preparation for whatever may kind of come down the pike.
Speaker 3: Absolutely so, I mean, there's the minute. The alternative to
that is the political road. And it puzzles me how
people are supposedly conscious nationalists and they've read all the
right nationalist texts and so on. How on earth do
those people, out of anybody full for this democracy fetish?
And the the crux of it is that the whole
political thing, the idea of the uniparty, isn't widely understood
just because it's a clever idea. It is because it's
a fact that a large part of the point of
giving people the idea that they can vote blue or
red is in order to distract them from the realities
of power and so on, to give them an artificial
belief that what they do really changes things, and that
to put their faith in the people up there on
the pedestal. And if the appalling revelations in the Epstein
the latest way of Epstein things show people anything it
should be to understand that this is not a specific
problem of one pedophile or one little group and one
group of the political elites are within it. They're all
of them wrapped up in this thing. That's the nature
of the beast. We are ruled by a self selected,
self perpetuating elite which at some stage in the past,
whether it's in ancient Babylon or in the last forty
years or somewhere between it, at some stage in the
past it's become artly corrupt, artly evil. And the idea
that you're going to change anything connected with that crowd,
that crowd with what you do in your own life,
it's nonsensical. Whereas as you were saying there, when you've
got sixty men in your community, there's so much can
be done with that, I detinue it's already making people's
lives better, because you know, if you look at one
of the key statistics which decides quite apart from you
was talking earlier on about your genetics and so on,
a key metric as to whether or not you're going
to live to a ripe old age or not is
whether you've got friends at a circle of friends, you know,
that's it. So if making everyone's life better and for
that case matter in a small town, it doesn't actually
matter what sort of challenge befalls your small town community
in the future. If they're sixty like minded men in
a core, then you've got a good chance of your
community rising to meet that challenge. And if those sixty
good men are actually half of them in the Democrats,
as they say would have been back in the nineteen fifties,
half of them staunch Democrats, half of them stage Republicans,
straight away your community has got this division right down
the middle of it, which people who really wish you
ill will play upon. And while you're busy hating each
other or worrying about each other, all sorts of bad
things happen to you. So for our people to withdraw
from the game of party politics actually doesn't mean that
we're drawn from politics. Because politics, if you look at
the actual meaning of it, the Greek word, it's about
the police, it's about the city, it's about the community.
And the last thing people who really want to do politics,
real politics worthwhile politics should be doing is getting involved
in the party politics, which is a fake version, deliberate
design to make people waste their time.
Speaker 2: Well, Nick, I'll have you know, I'm not sure if
you're aware that you know one Jeffrey Epstein was both.
I'm not quite sure how this works, but he was
both an Islamicist and an agent of the KGB, which
is remarkably convenient. Indeed, you're entire you're entirely corrected.
Speaker 3: I was.
Speaker 2: I was just talking to my wife about this because,
you know, my state has undergone a significant shift to
the left in one election, and you know, the the
government seems you know, quite content to just ruin the
life of anyone productive. But point is, and she made
a you know, a quite quite incisive point where she's like,
I don't understand why everyone's always talking about national politics,
and this is what actually matters, right, saying like that
the kind of you know, huge you know, dog and
pony show things are said, but your life doesn't change,
whereas you know, a much less exciting election all of
a sudden, you know, I my life has significantly changed
for the worse, and that matters even more so down
to the you know, and where I live, right the
county and state and city government level, because of course, right,
which goons actually get sent to deal with you, like, okay,
if you if you really mess up, it is the
FBI you get you get a black helicopter, in which
case you're probably screwed anyway, right, But in most cases
it's you know, your local sheriff, your local police department.
And it's become sort of a truism, but it is
there's something to it. And you know, I think about this,
you know, during the pandemic where you know, sure there
were national or state level laws, but living in a bubble,
it didn't matter because the local police wasn't going to
do anything. So sure it's illegal, but functionally, you know,
you could still do whatever you want it. And I
think that you know, the the entertainment level, the number
of eyes on, you know, the big picture stuff. You know,
what did Donald Trump say? You know, who performed at
the super Bowl? How gay was he? Answers? Very But
all of that, you know, takes up so much time
that I think it blinds people to what actually, you know, matters.
And look, I understand it, right, I'm certainly guilty of
talking about Trump or whatever, perhaps more than I should
but especially from a relative position of weakness. And I
mean that very specifically, not that we are weak people,
but very clearly the government doesn't listen to what you
and I want to do. You sort of have to,
you know, choose a you know, choose a playing field
where you actually can matter. We actually can't do something.
Speaker 3: Yep, absolutely, God, you shouldn't use the word weakness. It's
the correct word would be powerlessness. And you're automatically powerless
in terms of what's what's happening in the whole of
the United States. But if you are not personally weak,
and if your friends and friendship circle isn't personally weak,
then you have power in your own community's and you
can have and you can increase that power, and he
can do things which actually make a difference, whereas at
the national level you can't. So we've got a problem
with powerlessness, and we can address it as long as
we have realistic games and working in a field where
we can actually make a difference.
Speaker 2: Well, and I think of you know, the leader of
the Virginia o GC chapter. I know that he has
been and I can't say his name for a number
of reasons, but I know that he and some of
his friends have been involving themselves with you know, local
institutions primarily staffed by older people. And I haven't told
him this you probably very embarrassed by did but actually
sort of took inspiration from him and realize that if
you are a young man who has even a monoicum
of competence and drive, you can advance incredibly quickly through
an institution that is staffed by people in their seventies,
and they will love you for it, because, as you've said,
you know both going back to you know the importance
of having friends. But the Internet has massively isolated people
and so many of these institutions, you know, Putnam's Bowling
alone chronicled this generation and a half ago are dying
on the vine because there is no youth presence. And
it's sort of stupid to say, but you can just
do things and you will be surrounded by how quickly
you can advance because there is no one else to
compete against.
Speaker 3: Yep, do you have in the United States? Do you
have a network in different towns and so on of
veterans clubs or not? Yes, actual physical veterans clubs as
we have them in Britain. In Britain generally it's they
wrote a British Legion which was created shortly after the
First World War, and in some places in place of
a war memorial, they decided to build a village hall instead,
or say the Royal British Legion place. And they've got clubs,
let their bars and so on up and down the
country and there. Obviously, I asked, do you have it
in the States? You do, because I think anyone will
find if you go near any of those the game.
As you're saying, they're committee members, they're all in the seventies.
It's a demographic problem. So obviously, if a group were
to go in and say, right, we're going to take
it over, and in due course we'll get rid of
the American flag or the British flag and will have
a far better flag in its place, obviously that's going
to be a note y you know where that is
going to end. But if people approach it genuinely and
not in a cynical way and get involved in that, then,
especially if one person can do it, then a little
bit further down the line, they can assist a friend
here to come in and so on and in due course,
just automatically you take it over. You say, if you're
taking it over for bad ends, whether actually that, they're
already quite well set up to defend against that, because
for decades, any little bunch of conven criminal, if they
could get into a group like that, take it over
and then sell it off and pocket the proceeds. That's
what human beings do. Unfortunately, some people are plain bad
it would have happened, so they defended against takeovers, but
they're certainly not defended against younger people coming forward, getting
involved and becoming the people who run it in the future.
And if you control something like that, then again, if
you have some kind of catastrophe, then rather than your
people in that community sitting around of running around the
headless chickens, which is what people tend to do in
a catastrophe, and I think they're going to see it more,
especially with people a generation bought up on the Internet
without therefore any real normal social skills. Not their own fault,
it's just the way it is. Then increasingly, something bad
happens in your community, whether it's something bad because of them,
if you're thinking in ethnic terms or for any other reason,
then your community's had a disadvantage because there's no hardcore
at the center of it. Whereas if in addition to
your sixty people, you also have the absolute use of
a club building and everything that goes with it, well
around that you can instantly build a relief center for
whatever's happened, and can instantly then say to people, come
and meet us here, you know, and we've got supplies here,
and we've got a kitchen here where we can cook
for two hundred people, whatever it is. Having an asset
like that is so important that it gives you the
power to respond to all sorts of things, whatever it
might be in the future, rather than spending all your time,
like we was saying, worrying about Biden, Trump, whoever was
going to succeed them and so on, which is in
the end, you're worrying about something you make no difference
to and even if you did, it wouldn't make any
difference to your people on the ground.
Speaker 2: Well, and something that I think is important to say
is that you could look at this and say, oh,
you know, you're trying to inject yourself into this institution
and take it over like a cancer. No, no, not
at all. You believe in to you, listener, you believe
in the truest version of something that these institutions were
already designed to do. You have almost a more unadulterated
or a purer version of that vision. They're pointing the
same direction. And one of the things I've noticed speaking
to older people leave it at that, is that many
of them, particularly if they are we'll just say conservative aligned,
are incredibly beat down because their entire life they have
been told this thing that you love is evil and
horrible and bad, and ever going back is impossible, and
everyone younger than you hates you and resents you unless
you say this, this and this, and you don't need
to be weird about it. But I've seen this happen
multiple times, where it's like a weight dropping off their back.
It's like, oh, you're like me, and internally you're like, well,
I'm I'm a little more than that, but you know,
we'll go ahead for the sake of the conversation. And
so particularly a historical societies, you know, people who are
passionate about their culture, passionate about the place they live,
they often have to walk on eggshells, you know, asked
as if you know, like, oh, we can't ever say that,
and if there is an injection of youthful vigor of
people who share that common understanding and can basically say like, no,
you don't need to apologize to me. Yes, I see
what you want and it is good. Again. You can
you can do quite well. But Nick, we are coming
up on time. Last time, unfortunately the software kicked us
out before we could get to where people can find you. So, Nick,
where are you on the internet?
Speaker 3: Right? I'm on X although there's one account there, Nick
Griffin bu, which has got sixty two thousand followers, but
it's dead. It was hacked and mister Musk or his
lackies will not give it back to me, so ignore
that one. So I'm on X a small scaled Nick
Griffin BTP that's Bravo, Tango Papa. I'm on Telegram t
do Amy forward slash Nick Griffin capital in capital G.
If it matters, had done, if it is, if it
does most importantly of all, I do most of my
serious work now on substack. So I'm substack. I'm on substack.
It's Nick Griffin Beyond the Pale, and that's where I'm
putting the in particular series I'm writing at presents with
the working title what is to be Done, which is
just about where do we go from here? Because I
see most nationalists, people who claim to be nationalist thinkers,
without a brain in their heads. I'm afraid coming up
with all sorts of crazed ideas. I think I've got
the experience to have some far better ideas as to
where we should be going. I suffer a degree of
guilt because perhaps certainly in Britain there's the nationalist organization
group Blitz around are almost all on crazed paths, very
dangerous paths. For a degree of guilt because perhaps they're
there because for ten years at the end of the BNP,
I just left them to it, hoping that the young
generation would come up with some great ideas. Well, they
haven't done. So therefore I've got a duty. I'm afraid
I've got to come back. So I say to people,
if you think what I did in the past was
useful and good and so on, I actually believe that
my most important work is still to come, not least
as I've got the experience. I think I said last time.
It's not just my experience, it's the fact that I've
got fifty plus years of experience in this game. Sometimes
it is a game, sometimes it's great fun. But in turn,
in that time, I've met people who were there ten
years before. I've met men who were at Cable Street
with Mosley and so on and spoken with them. I've
met men who served in the armed forces of every
major combatant in the Second World War, and quite a
few from the First World War and so on. So
there's an awful lot of experience there, other people's experience
which I'm working to distill to give to the next generation.
So the place I do it is on substack. Nick
Griffin Beyond the Pale, and please have you not already
on there, Come and join. It's a great app. It's
free and it's very easy to use.
Speaker 2: I highly recommend your substack one. That's how I found you.
Substack is become sort of the who's who of you know,
everyone from early the last thirty years of interesting politics.
I'll leave it at that. It is also a source
of some of the worst essays I've ever read in
my life, so I try to limit my amount of
time on there, but I highly recommend Nick's work. That
series has been great. You know, I was sort of
reading through it in preparation for our first interview, so
highly recommend that all will be linked in the description.
As far as my stuff, the Jay Burton Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
anywhere you listen to podcasts. If you want to support me,
this is what I do professionally, you could throw a
few bucks my way on Patreon, Substack or gum road.
The business model is basically, if you pay me, you
gheit the episodes a few days early with no ads
to the same content. I'm not hiding anything from you,
but it's a way to, you know, help me support myself.
I actually it's funny. I always say that it comes
out to like twenty cents an hour, but when I
was at this event, some guy came up to me
and he said, no, I actually did it. It's eighteen cents.
So if you think that what I do is worth
you know, eighteen sense for what you listen to, you know,
maybe you can also check out our sponsor, Axious Remote
Fitness Coaching. JD is very very adept at building a community,
both just with the fitness guys and also in his
personal life. You should support him. It's one of our
guys has a business. Again, Nick This was a ton
of fun man, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Thank you. Great fun. I hope to be with you again.
Speaker 2: Everyone home, keep your head up well. I can't last forever.
Good Night,