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Speaker 1: Hey, if you're anything like me, your moods change when

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it comes to podcasts listening. I want to have the

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right podcast for the right mood, which is the reason

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why I created the aerow dot net network. It's an

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opportunity for you to explore, to get into areas that

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you go I don't know, Okay, I'll give it a shot.

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A r r oe dot net, seventeen podcasts to choose from,

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and growing. I'm serious when I say enjoy the exploration.

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So what is it that that when when you put

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a book like this together, how does it come to you?

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Because I mean, I mean you, you actually admit that

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this one took some time. It didn't just happen one,

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two three.

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Speaker 2: I never know what I'm getting into it. And let's

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just talk about the setup of the book. A man

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walks into a funeral home carrying his favorite blue suit.

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He's got a terminal disease, and this is the suit

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that he wants to be buried in.

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Speaker 3: But here's the thing.

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Speaker 2: If you go into your local bank and you open

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up a safety deposit box, the government can track it.

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Then the paperwork is filed, they can find it. Same

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thing if you go to the ups store and you

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open up a po box. But if you secretly sew

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something into the lining of your favorite suit and then

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you hand that suit to your local morticium, you have

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the ultimate untraceable hiding spot.

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Speaker 3: And from there, the man.

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Speaker 2: Goes back to his hotel room. There's a guy waiting

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with a gun who says, where is it? Guy says,

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I don't know what you're talking about. He shoots the

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man dead, and of course his suit is still in

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the funeral home. You won't believe what's hidden in that

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suit or who's about to find it. That's chapter one

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of the Viper. That's the opening.

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Speaker 3: There you go.

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Speaker 2: I found it because I was literally in a funeral

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home with a buddy who was shown me around and

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he had a padlocked door, and when I was like,

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what's in the pat what's.

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Speaker 3: Behind the padlock?

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Speaker 2: And he undoes this big padlock and shows me all

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the clothes that people want to be buried in. If

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you're not family and you're old, you pick out what

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you're going to wear to your own funeral.

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Speaker 3: And I thought to myself, that's a great high spot.

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Speaker 2: I got the opening for the book right, But that's

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not the book that's just the setup. What takes me

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so long is figuring out the characters, figuring out where

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they're going to go and more important, and this is

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the honest truth, is what I'm struggling with at that

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moment in time, and that's what took me so long

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with this book.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: But see the thing about it is, I mean, you

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say to even new readers, and that's people that I'm

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always trying to reach with those new people, and that

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this is a great time to get to know Zig

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and Nola, and it's like, Wow, instead of having you

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start way back in the beginning, it's like, start here

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and then make your process and your journey of reading.

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Speaker 2: And listen, I understand the last book was out four

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years ago. Every book has to be stan Lee used

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to say about comic books. Every comic book is someone's first.

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And that's why I viewed my thrillers right. There's going

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to be someone who maybe never read one of my books,

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but says, this sounds interesting to me. I want to

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learn something. And one of the things that I learned

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just about myself is the opening quote in the book.

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The first thing you read says, it's this cropey, a

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guy named Dale marriage, and it says, I don't believe

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in closure. I'm not sure we ever really get over anything.

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It was the very very last thing I put in

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the book. When the book was done, I found that

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quote and I was like, that's the book.

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Speaker 3: There it is.

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Speaker 2: And what I realized is, I you know, there's a

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saying in the book. It's a word that I never

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heard before called pentimento, and pentimento is a term in

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painting when paint gets so old and brittle, it starts

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to become transparent, so you can actually see the pencil

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lines on the canvas like the artist original draft, like

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the rough draft, and it has you know, mistakes and

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regrets and a tree that's facing to the left is

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now swaying.

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Speaker 3: To the right. People change their minds as they draw

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and they create.

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Speaker 2: And as I found that out, I was like, wait,

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that's what life is, is that all of us have

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past versions of ourselves. You know, our early lives are

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just rough drafts, filled with mistakes, filled with regrets, filled

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with things we wish we could take back, but you

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can't make a masterpiece without them. And what I realized

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is that closures overrated. What you really have to do

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is love yourself for who you are. And that's what

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the Viper is a thriller is really about.

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Speaker 1: When you feel that thrill on that page before we

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get it. I mean, what is the perfectionist inside of

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you having to deal because I mean I have to

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sit there and I do a defrag journal work. I've

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got to become a part of the project by asking

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the questions. So how do you deal with that when

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the perfectionist just saying, I'm not thinking that it's going

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to reach anybody. I'm not. I mean, I mean because

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you I can relate with the story with going into

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the into the funeral home because I would do that.

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That's me. I would do that. But now the question is,

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like you said, that's only chapter one. Now what are

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you going to do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I start out, I only have the

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first fifty pages. I have the first that's all I know,

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just the start, and I know what the ending is

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because I know what the kind of general plus, but

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I have no idea how I'm going to get there.

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And to me, that that's the fun. I did a

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book years ago, my second book I ever did. I

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outlined the entire book in one fell swoop It was

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the hardest book, and I actually think my worst written

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book because it was just like paint by numbers. I

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was just going one to two to three. There was

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no and to me the fun of a novel and create.

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And I'm not sure if you find this in your journaling,

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but is you sometimes get surprised where it takes you

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all the time. I you know, one of the things,

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I spent a lot of books writing about the death

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of my parents. I lost both my parents, so I

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wrote a character that was lost their mom. I wrote

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a character that lost their dad. It was me struggling

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to get over the death of my parents. I was like,

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how do I get over it? I'm going to write

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about it, and then I realized I'm never going to

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get over it. Every person listening right now has someone

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who they wish could still be here today, and anyone

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who's lost someone close to their soul knows you never

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get over it. They deserve to be remembered and all

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you ever get to do is transform.

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Speaker 3: And I figured that out.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I got that, so I'm like, so

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what am I doing in the And then I realized

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that the thing that I was actually struggling with wasn't

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the death of my parents. I buried them a long

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time ago. But I never forgave my dad for some

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of the stuff that he did. I never forgave him.

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And when I was writing this book, I finally realized

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at the end that's why that quote about closure was

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so important to me, as I found forgiveness for my father,

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or at least some forgiveness for him. And man, when

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you let go of that, that's a really heavy load

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that you don't get to carry around anymore.

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Speaker 3: I needed that from this book.

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Speaker 1: So when you come across a quote like that, are

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you like me and you plant it in a different

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journal in the way of because I mean to go

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back and try to find it again. Ah, that's a

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needle in a haystack. What are the real big chances

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you're going to find it again? So do you put

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it in special places where you can build upon it?

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Speaker 3: One hundred percent?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think that real success doesn't come from

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you being like I have the most motivation, because you

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know what, that only will get you so far. Motivation

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eventually runs out, determination runs out. What you have to

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do is be more motivated and determined on the days

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when you're not motivated them.

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Speaker 3: You've still got to do it.

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Speaker 2: And the way to make that happen is you got

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to make good habits, right, That's what it is. That's

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like an honored Swartzenegger lesson, like you just make the habit.

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So I made the habit of when I find stuff,

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I put it in the exact spot where I can

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look for it later. And this is the crazy thing

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that I don't even think I realized until a couple

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of days ago, is all these great quotes that I

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always love, and I'm like, oh, readers will love this,

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or someone will love this, or my kids will love this.

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I pull quotes for them and my wife they're I'm

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kidding myself. Yeah, the only reason why they resonate with

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me is because those quotes are for me. All those

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things that you love so much to your core, and

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you think, like, oh, I love sharing this other people.

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Speaker 3: It's not other people. You needed.

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Speaker 2: Pay attention to what your body's telling to you. Pay

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attention to what your brainy sidety of your brain is

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telling you. Pay attention to what the emotional side of

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brain is telling you. It's something you need. Your great

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loves are always your great needs.

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Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Brad Meltzer. Meet

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up next the name of his new book, The Viper

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in stores as well as Amazon. This is the one

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you're going to be talking about. We are back with

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Brad Meltzer. Where did you gain the confidence to invite

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your readers to come up with the title, because I

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mean that that's like, you know, one of the things

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that Julia Cameron always says in the artist way is

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don't give it to other people. They are the wet blanket.

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And I'm sitting here looking at you, Brad, going my god,

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I want to do what Brad does. I want to

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make it so interactive with those that are choosing to

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even read, and then to do something with them where

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they're now part of the process.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, I think in my early career I

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would have been like nervous and I was if you

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look up early interviews, I would be like I was

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giving baseball quotes. I was like, I'm just happy to

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be here one book at a time, like and then

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and then somewhere along the way, I was like, I

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don't want to be that guy. Yeah, you know I

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used to I used to say to my wife, I

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don't like small talk.

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Speaker 3: I hate smallter. I like going deep.

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Speaker 2: And I didn't even realize the ego that was in

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that statement, as if what I'm better at small at

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going deep than other people, I'm better than small talk

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at other people. What I was actually getting bad at

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wasn't small talk. I was bad at listening. I stopped listening.

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I stopped like if you weren't a certain level of

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funny and humor and clever and whatever else I thought

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you had to be, I was like, Oh, that person's

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a dad, I don't want to talk to that person.

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And then I was like, wait a minute, I'm letting

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amazing people slip through my fingers.

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Speaker 3: There are people who.

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Speaker 2: Just don't say a word, but they're the smartest person

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in the room. And I had to get over myself.

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And that's just part of midlife, part of growth, part

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of figuring out how where you are in the universe,

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just realizing you're not that special. And once I did that,

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and that also happened during the writing of this book,

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I just was like.

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Speaker 3: I don't care.

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Speaker 2: I want to invite more people aboard, come join me,

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like I'll be honest, it's not easy for me every day.

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If it was, then to be pretty boring for me

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every day too. And I think you have to love

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your flaws. You got to love the parts of you

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that are bad too as much as you love the

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parts of you that are good.

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Speaker 1: So are you like Ian Anderson from the group Jethro

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Taal where he said I do not write songs arrow,

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I am a song smith. So do you play with

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words as well?

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Speaker 2: I just want to make a I want to make

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statements like that. I want to be like rock star,

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like we're right. No, you know what I think this is,

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This is my to my core.

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Speaker 3: I believe this. I'm not that special.

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Speaker 2: If I if I love something, then my hope is

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that other people are going to love it too. And

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so if I love that moment when you walk into

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a funeral home, you know, if I love in this

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book we deal with and we can talk about if

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you want, you know, witness protection and I find it fascinating.

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You know, if I love what happens at Dover, you

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know base where where America's most secretive funeral home is

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and top secret funeral home is like, then hopefully other

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people will join me on the journey. If they don't,

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I'm still going to go on a fun ride and

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and once I was able to like kind of lose

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that worry and not completely, but like let it go

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a little bit again. You have room in your body

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for other and I think that's just as vitally important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you've got the courage here where you really

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take on something that really is inspiring to me as

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a writer, where it's like, you know that there's a

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difference between a book spy and a real book spy,

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and you take that to that level where you're saying,

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are you getting your book spies right? Because this one

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is right?

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Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate it. You know, I don't know what

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the answer is. The one thing I know is that

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the honesty is just it.

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Speaker 3: It's true.

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Speaker 2: I'm listening to what you're asking me. I'm going to

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give you my answer.

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Speaker 3: Before I think.

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Speaker 2: I used to like I'm going to have my talking points,

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I'm gonna get and here we go, and that'll be

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my interview. And I realized I was doing that in life.

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I wasn't participating. I was just detaching and going to

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my own you know, writers, they's just say to my wife,

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you know, I have a hard time at cocktail parties

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or even parties because I never feel like I'm participating.

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I'm kind of like in the corner and I'm looking

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and I'm detaching. I'm watching and observing. And I thought, well,

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I'm a writer, that's my job to observe, so that

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must be why I do that.

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Speaker 3: And I just accepted it.

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Speaker 2: For years and then I was like, what am I doing.

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I'm not participating. I'm missing out on incredible people. I

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met this woman. I don't know why I'm telling you

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the story, but I'll tell you the story. Like, I

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met this woman who was just this I've met her

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and she was kind of like really quiet, and I

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was like, oh, she's not really interesting. And then I

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spent we were out at this event and we were

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there for hours and hours, and finally by the end

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she was kind of like had this energy that came

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up and was glowing. I was like, wow, you look

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like recharge. You're fully alive. And I found that at

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the end that she was a hospice nurse and the

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reason she was not glowing or not, you know, energetic,

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is she had just lost a patient that was dear

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to her. And I let that amazing person in my

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quick judgment slip through my fingers, and I was like,

305
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what am I doing here? And I think, for me,

306
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let me, let me tell you even more personal stories,

307
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just because I know you a long time. My father

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may rest in peace. This is the I've talked tob

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what I'm.

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Speaker 3: With you before.

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Speaker 2: It was a complicated relationship. And when I was in college,

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I went to apply for my last year of classes

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and they kicked me out of school. They said, you know,

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your bills have not been paid here at University of Michigan,

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so you have to be kicked out. And I was like,

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what do you mean? And I knew it was my dad.

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He hadn't paid my bills. So I went down to

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the registrar's office. They turned my dad into loans. They

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gave me a one percent loan on the spot, let

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me re enroll in school, and I got to graduate.

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So now again I settle everything down. I graduate, I

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go to my first job, and I switched my home address,

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so now my mail is coming forwarded to me. And

324
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quickly I realized I have forty thousand dollars in credit

325
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card bills that I never signed up for. My dad

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that's how he was paying for college. You know, when

327
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you're in college, you get all those things to say,

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sign up for a new master card, sign up for

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a new this. My dad signed up for all of them,

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took them all. That's how he was trying to pay

331
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to get me through college. It was a terrible thing

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because it's a twenty two percent interest rate on a

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credit card rather than a one percent loan. He could

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have gone And eventually, so if you keep getting hit

335
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in the back of the head, I said, and they

336
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tell me, listen, if you want to get out of this,

337
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you got to report your dad for fraud. He's going

338
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to go to jail. It's the only way out of it.

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I'm like, I'm not reporting my father. I'm rating on

340
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my father. So I calm it all down again, I

341
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make it all go away again. But again, if you

342
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eventually get hit in the back of the head enough,

343
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you start looking over your shoulder. And here's the part

344
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of the story that I was missing and what I

345
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just told you. And I told the story of my

346
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,960
dad's funeral. But my dad, when he was little, used

347
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to get beat up by his father, who was a boxer.

348
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And I know for sure that my father jumped in

349
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front of his younger brother to make sure he would

350
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take the hits for him so he won't get hit.

351
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I know he jumped in front of his own mother,

352
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my grandmother, so she won't get hit. But what I

353
00:14:45,159 --> 00:14:47,159
missed in the story I was telling is my father

354
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and all those dumb things he did, even with me.

355
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He was just trying to take the hits so that

356
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I could be the first in my immediate family to

357
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go to a four year college. But I couldn't see

358
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that because I was so caught up up in my

359
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own anger and my own pain, and so mad at

360
00:15:02,679 --> 00:15:05,320
all the headache he had caused me. I couldn't see

361
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that he was trying to do right by me, even

362
00:15:06,879 --> 00:15:08,879
though it was a terrible plan, it was stupid to do.

363
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He was trying to take that dead at twenty two

364
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percent so that I didn't have to take any debt

365
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at all. He just couldn't make it work. But I

366
00:15:15,399 --> 00:15:18,440
couldn't see that because I was so in pain. And

367
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,480
while I was writing The Viper, That's what I was

368
00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:24,120
struggling with, is trying to find that forgiveness for all

369
00:15:24,639 --> 00:15:25,960
those messes my dad made.

370
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Speaker 1: You're a silent watcher, aren't you a silent wolf? As

371
00:15:28,919 --> 00:15:30,879
I talk about all the time on iHeartRadio. In other words,

372
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,120
you watch, you you sit there and you take it

373
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all in, you do some research, and then you figure

374
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out how you're going to activate it.

375
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Speaker 3: It's funny. I wish it was that easy. I have

376
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:41,360
to I silently.

377
00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,960
Speaker 2: I do silently watch, but I have to write it

378
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,440
or talk it out like That's it expresses in a

379
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,720
way like in my writing. When I get to the

380
00:15:50,799 --> 00:15:52,159
end of the book, I'm like, Okay, what am I

381
00:15:52,159 --> 00:15:52,759
struggling with?

382
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:53,000
Speaker 3: Here?

383
00:15:53,039 --> 00:15:54,720
Speaker 2: What have I been dealing with this past year? And

384
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,080
then I'm like, oh, here, now I see it. I'm

385
00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,080
not smart enough to know it from page one. Here

386
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,080
is what I will make this book about. And it

387
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,360
Shelby about this. It's I realized my writing over time

388
00:16:06,919 --> 00:16:10,080
is just me figuring out what I'm dealing with. And

389
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:11,759
then I look at it and I'm like, oh, there's

390
00:16:11,799 --> 00:16:12,919
the free therapy I needed.

391
00:16:13,879 --> 00:16:15,639
Speaker 1: We got to talk about that book cover because I'm

392
00:16:15,639 --> 00:16:17,200
a freak like that, and I know how I am

393
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,519
when it comes to my own book covers. And when

394
00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:21,360
did it come to you? Was it during because you

395
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,639
talked about the end coming very early and you were

396
00:16:23,679 --> 00:16:25,120
able to figure out what the end was going to be,

397
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:26,759
and then you had to build the storyline. Well, what

398
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,879
about that book cover, because it's very attractive and it

399
00:16:29,919 --> 00:16:32,080
gets your attention very quickly when you walk in to

400
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:32,480
see it.

401
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,440
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny. My buddy, my very first book

402
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,159
I ever wrote the title of the book. We had

403
00:16:40,159 --> 00:16:43,639
two titles. It was the Tenth Justice and Addison's Judgment.

404
00:16:44,159 --> 00:16:46,960
And I loved Addison's Judgment and the publisher like Tenth Justice.

405
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,559
And I went to my buddy, who worked in advertisement.

406
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,240
I was like, right out of college, I didn't know

407
00:16:50,279 --> 00:16:53,039
anything about book covers. And I said, what's the better cover,

408
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,559
what what's the better title? And he said, no one knows.

409
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,000
I said, what do you mean. He says, go ask

410
00:16:57,039 --> 00:16:57,840
one hundred people.

411
00:16:58,320 --> 00:16:59,639
Speaker 3: I said, what do you mean asking how he goes?

412
00:16:59,679 --> 00:17:02,000
Speaker 2: Go to a go to your local mall. He says,

413
00:17:02,039 --> 00:17:03,799
don't go in New York City. Everyone there's two opinion.

414
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,200
I go to a go to Jersey. He's like, go

415
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,920
ask one hundred people in the mall which one they prefer.

416
00:17:10,039 --> 00:17:11,880
So my wife I was to embarrass. My wife went

417
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,319
to the local food court in the mall. She said,

418
00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:18,039
I asked one hundred people and she said, seventy four percent,

419
00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:20,440
prefer the tenth justice. I said, yeah, but that's the

420
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,240
food court. We don't know if read books, you got

421
00:17:22,279 --> 00:17:23,559
to go to like the B Dalton, you got to

422
00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,319
go to. So God bless my wife. She then goes

423
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,160
to like the B Dalton in the mall and ask

424
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,359
another one hundred people, and instead of seventy four percent,

425
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,400
it's seventy three percent. It's the exact same number. And

426
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:36,960
so if you that book cover, if you follow me

427
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,519
on Instagram or Facebook or anywhere else I had. We

428
00:17:39,559 --> 00:17:43,160
had two covers and I literally asked my readers. I said,

429
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,240
tell me which one you prefer, and that orange cover

430
00:17:46,319 --> 00:17:49,000
that you see was the winner. That was the one

431
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,039
that won. And I was like, great, that's what we're

432
00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:54,240
going with. So I will pick every last word that's

433
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,279
in that book. I will fight for every last word

434
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,039
when it comes to the covers and the titles. As

435
00:17:59,079 --> 00:18:01,759
my friend taught me all those years ago, just ask people.

436
00:18:01,799 --> 00:18:03,279
They'll tell you they're smarter than you are.

437
00:18:03,559 --> 00:18:06,279
Speaker 1: Wow. God, twenty minutes with you is never enough. Dude.

438
00:18:06,599 --> 00:18:08,400
Ah my god, I'm so jealous of the people that

439
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,359
you're gonna be sharing conversations with because they're going to

440
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,079
get parts of you I didn't get today, So you're

441
00:18:12,079 --> 00:18:14,920
gonna have to come back to this show, you know.

442
00:18:15,039 --> 00:18:17,240
Speaker 2: Listen, I don't miss you man every time. You know,

443
00:18:17,279 --> 00:18:19,960
I'll be back you. You've supported me for the kids books,

444
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,319
for the thrillers, for the nonfiction, for whatever genre we do,

445
00:18:23,799 --> 00:18:25,640
and I hope you know what that means. You know,

446
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,559
it's one thing to have, you know, strangers come on

447
00:18:28,599 --> 00:18:30,519
board and say, Hey, the Vipers, that's book. Sounds great.

448
00:18:30,519 --> 00:18:32,200
I love to grow with the dragon tattoo. I'm going

449
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,240
to love this book. But it's one thing to have

450
00:18:34,279 --> 00:18:36,640
someone who's always been cheering for you, and I hope

451
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,240
you know I cheer right back for you as well.

452
00:18:38,279 --> 00:18:39,799
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much, and I do and I

453
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:41,680
don't want anybody to get mad at me here, but

454
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,240
I do have to ask a question, when are you

455
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,319
going to jump to a graphic novel or is that

456
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,759
even in the planning because you already draw the pictures

457
00:18:47,759 --> 00:18:50,920
in my mind? Is that enough for your imagination?

458
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,319
Speaker 2: Well, it's your lucky day because coming in I think

459
00:18:55,319 --> 00:18:58,119
it's a summer is our first graphic novel?

460
00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:58,319
Speaker 1: No?

461
00:18:59,279 --> 00:19:02,799
Speaker 3: Oh? Yes. So we have a company called Ghost Machine that.

462
00:19:02,839 --> 00:19:04,640
Does you know? I've written Superman.

463
00:19:04,279 --> 00:19:07,079
Speaker 2: And Batman and Spider Man. But we have a company

464
00:19:07,079 --> 00:19:09,559
called Ghost Machine. My friend Jeff Johns and I are

465
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,319
co writing it together. A guy named Jean Has Genius

466
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,759
artist has drawing it. And there's a true story that

467
00:19:15,799 --> 00:19:18,920
there are people who believe that ever since Abraham Lincoln's

468
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:20,680
son died in the White House, that the White House

469
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,160
is haunted as ghosts. So we are doing a graphic

470
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,640
novel called First Ghost about the ghosts that haunt the

471
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,119
White House and it'll be come out later this year.

472
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,079
Speaker 3: Wow. So yeah, just follow me on Instagram or whatever.

473
00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:33,480
You'll see. You'll see all the stuff.

474
00:19:33,599 --> 00:19:36,079
Speaker 2: I'll do it Man the Vipers now, but the First

475
00:19:36,079 --> 00:19:36,839
Ghost is coming.

476
00:19:37,079 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 1: I love it. Well, please have yourself a brilliant day

477
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,160
today and make your way back to this stage.

478
00:19:42,839 --> 00:19:43,440
Speaker 3: Thank you, brother,