WEBVTT 1 00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:30.039 Welcome back to part two of our series about the 2 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:33.240 nineteen eighty nine disappearance of Charles Horvath, which is a 3 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:36.479 special one because it takes place in Jules's home province 4 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:40.960 of British Columbia. As a brief recap from last week's episode, Charles, 5 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:43.679 even though he was born in Canada to his British mother, 6 00:00:43.759 --> 00:00:46.600 Denise Allen, he spent most of his life being raised 7 00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:49.200 in England, but then decided that he wanted to go 8 00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:52.320 on a backpacking trip across the country which would last 9 00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:55.439 several months. But sometime in May of nineteen eighty nine, 10 00:00:55.479 --> 00:00:57.920 his mother suddenly lost all track of him. She didn't 11 00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:01.079 get any letters, phone calls or postcard yards, even though 12 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:04.159 they were planning to meet together in Hong Kong that August, 13 00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:08.200 but Charles never contacted her to arrange about making the trip, 14 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:11.680 so Denise finally took the initiative to travel to British 15 00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:15.760 Columbia herself perform her own independent search for initially did 16 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:19.239 not get too much help from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, 17 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:22.040 but she did eventually find out that he was last 18 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:24.760 seen in a campground called the Tiny Town Tent and 19 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:28.799 Trailer Park, where he left some of his personal belongings behind, 20 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:31.640 but there was no evidence of what happened to them, 21 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:34.640 so when we picked this up, it's in nineteen ninety two. 22 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:37.799 Denise has made another trip to British Columbia to perform 23 00:01:37.879 --> 00:01:40.840 her own independent search for Charles, but while staying at 24 00:01:40.840 --> 00:01:43.760 a motel, she wound up getting an anonymous note slipped 25 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:46.359 under her door which read, I seen your ad in 26 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:48.680 the paper looking for your son. I seen him May 27 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:51.519 the twenty sixth. We were partying and two people knocked 28 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:53.760 him out, but he died. His body is in the 29 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:57.959 lake by the bridge end quote. Well, surprise, surprise, Denise 30 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:00.719 could not really get the RCMP to help, for at first, 31 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:03.560 she began to speculate that this bridge might have been 32 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:06.359 the Okanagan Lake Bridge, which is also known as the 33 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:10.199 Kelowna floating bridge, which ran over Okanagan late as part 34 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:12.719 of Highway ninety seven and was fairly close to the 35 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:16.840 campground and her motel. So since the police were reluctant 36 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:19.479 to perform a search of river, Denise got the help 37 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:22.639 of the Canadian Search Center for Missing Children, who agreed 38 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:25.280 to launch a private search effort and got a team 39 00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:29.400 of volunteered divers to search near the Okanagan Lake Bridge, 40 00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:33.560 belonging to an organization from Vancouver called International se Search, 41 00:02:33.639 --> 00:02:38.199 who used a mini submarine with a submersible camera, and surprise, surprise, 42 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:40.960 after the search started getting some publicity in the media 43 00:02:41.080 --> 00:02:43.360 and the RCMP knew that they were probably going to 44 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:46.039 look pretty bad if they did not helped, they finally 45 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:47.879 agreed to participate in the search effort. 46 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:51.879 Well, when it comes down to optics, it appears that 47 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:54.360 like they were going to do the very least that 48 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:58.680 they had to do initially because we just didn't see 49 00:02:58.759 --> 00:03:03.680 much action, really had to advocate for Charles, and so 50 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:07.879 when the public gets involved and when there's eyeballs and 51 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:12.240 fingers pointing at the RCMP in this specific case, it's 52 00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:15.240 clear that that is the impetus or the motivation that 53 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:18.719 they need to actually do what needs to be done 54 00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:21.840 or what some might say is their job. 55 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:24.280 Yes, we talked about this a lot in our last 56 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:27.520 episode that Denise literally cannot do a search for over 57 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:30.240 a year after Charles went missing because she could not 58 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:33.199 get the RCMP to do anything. From England. They pretty 59 00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:35.479 much said, well, he's twenty years old, he's an adult. 60 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:38.240 If he doesn't want to cock to his mother anymore. 61 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:40.960 It's his legal right. But of course, once Denise did 62 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:43.120 her search and found out that he left all of 63 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:46.360 his personal belongings behind at this campground, she began to 64 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:49.479 suspect that, no, he did not disappear voluntarily, he was 65 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:52.400 likely the victim of foul play because he would just 66 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:55.840 not cut off all contact. And of course this note 67 00:03:56.240 --> 00:03:59.000 seemed to confirm her theory because they were alleging that 68 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:01.479 he was killed after during an incident at a party. 69 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:04.280 So they searched for five days in the lake were 70 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:07.560 unable to find anything, but Denise suddenly received a second 71 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:10.879 anonymous note delivered to her hotel room which said, quote 72 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:13.400 you were searching at the wrong end of the bridge 73 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:16.079 end quote. And once again, it was delivered there by 74 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:18.560 a taxi driver who claimed he had been given a 75 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:22.360 tip by an unidentified young man to drop the note 76 00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:24.600 off at a room, but was unable to offer much 77 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:27.800 information or a description to figure out who did this. 78 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:31.279 And sure enough, the diver started searching the opposite side 79 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:34.759 of the Okanagan Lake bridge and wound up coming across 80 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:37.519 a human body about forty meters deep in the water, 81 00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:41.920 which was brought to the surface, and it was decomposed 82 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:44.360 at first, so they couldn't tell who it really belonged to. 83 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:48.519 But surprise, surprise, this body did not actually belong to Charles. 84 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:52.680 That's not that surprising to me. If it's the bridge 85 00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:55.639 that I'm thinking of, it's a pretty high bridge, and 86 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:58.879 it would be a site where I would think that 87 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:02.759 people would possibly choose to end their own lives, or 88 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:08.839 potentially if somebody was murdered and somebody wanted to make 89 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:12.199 a quick disposal of a body like what was described 90 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:14.319 in the note, pretty much right, If the body is 91 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:16.600 in the lake and it's close to the bridge, then 92 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:20.399 we could deduce that the body was likely, potentially Charles's 93 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:24.319 body was thrown off of the bridge. So it wouldn't 94 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:27.279 surprise me. It's sort of like the Golden Gate Bridge 95 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:30.160 in San Francisco, how so many people choose to end 96 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:33.240 their own lives there. If you see bodies by a bridge, 97 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:36.959 it's not all that surprising. I mean, if you came 98 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:39.120 up with six bodies or something like that, it might 99 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:42.160 be like WHOA. But I don't know, I don't really 100 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:45.120 find it all that odd or atypical. Just when I'm 101 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:46.519 picturing the bridge in my head. 102 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:51.160 Yeah, you're absolutely correct, because obviously this was nineteen ninety 103 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:53.839 two when DNA was still in infancy, so they had 104 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:56.680 to use Charles's dental records, and it turned out the 105 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:59.959 body was not him. It actually belonged to a man 106 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:03.720 named John Edgar Dixon, a resident of Colonna, who had 107 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:06.560 gone missing in May of nineteen eighty five when he 108 00:06:06.639 --> 00:06:09.519 was sixty four years old, and he went missing after 109 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:13.199 escaping from a psychiatric institution, and the authorities determined that 110 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:16.360 his death was probably a suicide. They saw no outward 111 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:19.160 signs of foul play, but they just found it weird 112 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:22.040 that Denise got two sets of notes telling her to 113 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:24.120 look on the other side of the bridge and lo 114 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:28.879 and behold, they wind up finding another body. So Denise wondered, maybe, 115 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:32.079 like if this person might have had knowledge of Dixon's 116 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:34.759 suicide or disappearance and was trying to do like a 117 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:37.680 weird subterfuge to get him to look for his body, 118 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:40.519 or if it was just nothing more than an odd coincidence, because, 119 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.560 like you said, some bridges people like to jump off 120 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:46.399 them for suicides, So maybe the person who write the 121 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:48.839 note just had no idea that this other body was 122 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:49.519 going to be there. 123 00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:52.240 Okay, I'm refresh my memory. What year is this that 124 00:06:52.279 --> 00:06:53.199 they're doing the search? 125 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:54.319 Nineteen ninety two? 126 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:56.800 Nineteen ninety two, okay, so this would have been seven 127 00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:59.639 years after Dixon went missing. 128 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:01.160 Correct, Yeah, that's correct. 129 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:05.600 So if this person who is writing the note, would 130 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:09.000 they really wait seven years? Is that the way that 131 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:10.639 you're going to go about doing it? Wouldn't you just 132 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:13.279 write an anonymous note? Would it need to be connected 133 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:16.120 to Charles? Perhaps you could have just written a note 134 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:20.800 about Dixon and said something to make them search that area. 135 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:22.759 I don't know why you would wait and why the 136 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:26.720 timeline would be so protracted. So I'm personally more inclined 137 00:07:26.759 --> 00:07:29.879 to believe that is somebody that does have inside knowledge 138 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:33.399 about what happened to Charles. And just because the lake 139 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:36.439 is vast, it's a big lake, and so I think 140 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:40.920 that it's pretty easy to miss a body, and things 141 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:43.920 happen when a body decomposes over time, So there's no 142 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:47.279 guarantee that where that body dropped into the lake is 143 00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:51.199 where that body would be recovered. So I don't know 144 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:53.920 what's going on here, but I am inclined to believe 145 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:59.240 that this is somebody who potentially genuinely has knowledge about 146 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:02.240 what happened to charl Arles and feels guilty on some 147 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:07.360 level because they're giving multiple tips to authorities and when 148 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:09.920 they did their first initial search saying like no, like, 149 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:12.800 you're not in the right place. So I think that 150 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:15.720 the body likely could have been there at some point, 151 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:17.240 but searchers missed it. 152 00:08:17.959 --> 00:08:20.240 Yeah, I do agree. This is a very large lake. 153 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:22.480 So even if Charles did go off the bridge at 154 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:25.079 some point, it had been three years since he was 155 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:28.160 last confirmed to be alive, so easily could have floated elsewhere. 156 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:30.759 And I'm always struck by the fact that the person 157 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:34.080 who wrote the anonymous notes specifically put the correct date 158 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:36.600 when Charles was last confirmed to be alive, made the 159 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:39.799 twenty sixth I mean, you can't say that they say 160 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:42.399 with one hundred percent certainty that they had inside knowledge 161 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:45.320 because at the time Charles's disappearance was getting a lot 162 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:48.120 of coverage in the newspapers, which would have printed the 163 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:50.759 date he was last seen. And also the fact that 164 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:54.000 Denise had appeared on the local news and had specifically 165 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.960 said that she set up a missing person's headquarters at 166 00:08:56.960 --> 00:08:59.799 this motel. So even someone who was just trying to 167 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:02.759 do a mean spirited, practical joke, would probably know that 168 00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:05.799 Denise was there, So that doesn't necessarily mean that they 169 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:09.159 knew something about Charles's disappearance, but it is pretty compelling 170 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:12.200 because this was when he was last seen Made the 171 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:16.240 twenty six, nineteen eighty nine, and he was last seen 172 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:18.879 staying at a campground that was known for having some 173 00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:21.679 rough characters, so it is possible he could have attended 174 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:25.440 a party and been killed. I know that they spoke 175 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:28.679 to Phil Flett, who was the owner of the campground, 176 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:31.720 who still had Charles's some of his personal items in 177 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:35.200 his possession years later, and claimed that he disposed of 178 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:38.120 most of them after Charles's disappeared, and he denied any 179 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:40.879 knowledge about a party or an incident where anyone was 180 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:44.080 killed on the evening of May the twenty six, nineteen 181 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:46.039 eighty nine. But of course, even if he is telling 182 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:49.519 the truth, something still could have happened without his knowledge 183 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:50.320 when he wasn't there. 184 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:53.960 I don't know, Like I personally don't think that the 185 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:58.320 letter writing or the note was a cruel prank. I 186 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:00.159 would think like if you were just going to you 187 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:03.000 a prank, you would prank them like the one time 188 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:05.039 and say like, oh, the body's in the lake, and 189 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:07.639 then they search it and it's like, oh haha. I mean, 190 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:09.960 I don't know who would find that funny, but I 191 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:11.679 know that there are people out there who do that. 192 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:16.039 But the tone of it seems to be more serious 193 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:19.080 in nature. And so if it was somebody just looking 194 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:22.480 to insert themselves into the investigation, we would likely know 195 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:24.879 who they are because they would want the attention, which 196 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:28.200 we often see in cases. But here this is somebody 197 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:33.279 who is anonymous, and it doesn't seem like it's something 198 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:37.000 so fantastical. It seems believable. So maybe they didn't have 199 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:40.600 inside knowledge, Maybe they had second hand knowledge. Maybe it 200 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:43.000 was just somebody had said to them like, oh my gosh, 201 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:45.919 I witnessed what happened to Charles. He was you know, 202 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:48.639 he died at this party and he was thrown off 203 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:51.399 of the bridge. And then this person had this knowledge 204 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:55.080 and it was eating away at them. So they had 205 00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:58.480 to do something to intervene, and so that was telling 206 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:03.759 law enforcement to search, and so they were obviously frustrated, 207 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:06.360 if this is the case, frustrated with the first search 208 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:10.039 knowing that Charles's body wasn't discovered, So they're giving even 209 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:13.759 more specificity when they're saying the actual area of the 210 00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:16.720 bridge and that they were wrong where they were searching. 211 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:20.639 So I don't know, it's just something about it seems 212 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:24.480 like it's genuine to me. What do you think, Well. 213 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:26.840 Yeah, I think that you're correct that if it was 214 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:28.879 just a joke, they would have written one note and 215 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:31.080 not bother with a second. But that says to me 216 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:33.759 that they were probably watching the search effort took place 217 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:36.679 and just wanted to direct them to the other side 218 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:39.000 of the bridge. And if they do have inside knowledge, 219 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:42.200 then that tells me that they probably personally witnessed Charles 220 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:44.559 get thrown off the bridge, rather than just hearing about 221 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:47.440 it secondhand, because unless they were there, how would they 222 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:49.720 know which side of the bridge that he was tossed off? 223 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.039 I mean, unless somebody was like very specific with the 224 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:57.080 story that they told. But I think if somebody's telling 225 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:01.840 you secondhand information about what they witnessed, you're less likely 226 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:04.399 to feel the emotional weight of that. But if you 227 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:09.240 yourself witness something, or maybe you knew the person, then 228 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:12.480 I think that that really could weigh heavily. But if 229 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:15.720 it's just some stranger it might be more abstract and 230 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:20.159 you'd be less likely to need to tell law enforcement 231 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:22.600 the details that you know. And I know that would 232 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:27.919 vary depending on the individual and how empathetic they are 233 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:30.639 and how much guilt they're going to feel by knowing 234 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:34.080 something like that. Are they able to compartmentalize? I don't know, 235 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:37.679 but it just it feels real to me, and so 236 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:40.480 I just think, knowing how big this lake is, that 237 00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:43.919 it is so possible that his body is there, that 238 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:46.399 it was there, and that it just wasn't found. 239 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:49.720 That makes sense to me because Charles's disappearance to not 240 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:53.120 get any publicity in nineteen eighty nine when it originally happened, 241 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:55.799 and was finally getting all this media attention in nineteen 242 00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:57.799 ninety two, So of course, so it makes sense that 243 00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:00.320 they had a guilty conscience that they would wait that 244 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:03.399 much time in order to provide information, even though they 245 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:05.759 didn't want to out themselves and reveal who they were. 246 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:09.039 But once again, this whole incident did not paint the 247 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:12.080 RCNP in a flattering light because when they first found 248 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:14.480 the body, they were inclined to believe that it was 249 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:17.679 Charles and actually told Denise that, and she was left 250 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:21.639 so devastated that she had to be hospitalized, and the 251 00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:24.600 police convinced her to commit herself into a hospital, but 252 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:27.879 she did not even realize until afterwards that they had 253 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:31.960 convinced her to check into a psychiatric ward. And before 254 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:35.000 the body was even identified, the coroner kept trying to 255 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:38.759 pressure Denise into signing a death certificate for Charles because 256 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:40.840 they were just so certain it was going to turn 257 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:42.879 out to be him that even some of the local 258 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:45.279 media outlets were saying that Charles had been found, But 259 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:48.720 of course it turned out to be John Edward Dixon, 260 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:51.080 So they pretty much just put Denise through all this 261 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:53.720 distress for nothing. It almost seemed like they were trying 262 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:56.720 to push forward their narrative that this was a suicide, 263 00:13:56.759 --> 00:13:58.840 that Charles had jumped off the bridge into the water 264 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:02.120 himself could finally close the case, but of course when 265 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:04.399 it turned out not to be him, it only made 266 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:06.320 them look even worse than they did before. 267 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:10.240 Yeah, it seems like they're more concerned with managing public 268 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:14.759 perception than they actually are with discovering what happened to Charles, 269 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.759 and therein lies the problem. I'm sure that the RCNP 270 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:21.279 and all the people who likely were working at that 271 00:14:21.399 --> 00:14:24.600 time have turned over and that it's a new culture, 272 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:26.759 and I can only hope that they're much more involved 273 00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:29.279 when it comes to missing persons, because I think we 274 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:32.399 just saw a general trend in the eighties and nineties 275 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:35.639 where they didn't take missing persons nearly as serious as 276 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:38.159 they do today. So part of it is just the 277 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:41.879 passage of time helps with that. And it's also still 278 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:44.480 a challenge when you have somebody who is from a 279 00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:48.519 foreign country who goes missing in another country, and we 280 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:52.279 talked about this before, is law enforcement going to prioritize 281 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:55.519 looking for that person with the same fervor that they 282 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:58.879 would somebody who is like a naturalized citizen or like 283 00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:03.120 born in that country. So a Canadian who's missing versus 284 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:04.879 you see British. 285 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:06.840 He's technically was born in Canada, but he spent most 286 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:09.519 of his life being raised in England, Okay. 287 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:13.480 So it becomes more complex for Denie trying to search 288 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:18.159 because there aren't any family members who are local. So 289 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:21.879 it is like, you know, the squeaky wheel that gets 290 00:15:21.879 --> 00:15:25.600 the grease, and it becomes rather difficult to advocate when 291 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:28.440 you are trying to do so from another country, and 292 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:31.720 so you only have a limited amount of resources in 293 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:35.240 law enforcement, and you're going to allocate those resources where 294 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:39.240 you feel they're needed, and where they're needed or they're 295 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:42.159 perceived to be needed, is where the most noise is 296 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:47.120 being made. So it just becomes this almost fruitless endeavor 297 00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:50.840 because if there's nobody advocating for somebody missing or murdered, 298 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:54.159 will they get that attention? And I know you and 299 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:57.279 I have talked to Ashley about this because she'd worked 300 00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:01.480 at a police department, and I think doing victim's advocate stuff, 301 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:04.360 is that what she was doing? I think so, yeah, yeah, 302 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.639 And I believe that the people that made the most 303 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.559 fuss were the ones that got the most results, and 304 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:13.279 that shouldn't be that way. It should be all equal. 305 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:16.960 But that is the reality of the investigation. And I 306 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:21.519 think that pretty much goes he doesn't really that transcends country, 307 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:26.360 I'm sure, and is most police departments, our CMP, whatever 308 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:29.919 agency is handling a case. It's what type of pressure 309 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:31.960 is coming from the family and what type of pressure 310 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:33.039 is coming from the public. 311 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:35.879 That's pretty much it is. Because they didn't do any 312 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:38.279 movement on this case until Denise started putting a bunch 313 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:40.720 of public pressure on it. Because they really didn't have 314 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:42.559 a lot to work with. At first. All they had 315 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:45.720 was a date when Charles cash to paycheck made the 316 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:48.159 twenty six, nineteen eighty nine, which was the end of 317 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:50.360 the paper trail for him. But we didn't have a 318 00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:52.440 spot that he went missing from, We didn't have any 319 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:54.919 evidence of foul play, and because he was on a 320 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:58.200 backpacking trick, they just could not disprove the idea that 321 00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:01.600 maybe he just wanted to keep traveling and break off 322 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:04.599 all contact with his family. But here we are years 323 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:07.000 later and all the pieces of the puzzle to coming together, 324 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:10.599 because shortly after all his news about the anonymous note 325 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:14.599 came out, Denise's contacted by a man named Gino Boardine, 326 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:17.559 who had been staying at the Tiny Town campground with 327 00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:20.599 his son in May of nineteen eighty nine and actually 328 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:24.039 befriended Charles shortly before he went missing. He described Charles 329 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:26.640 as a very friendly man who made friends with people 330 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:29.200 very easily, but also thought that he seemed a bit 331 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:32.160 nighiven trusting, which is why he felt there is a 332 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:34.759 possibility that he could have cross passed with the wrong 333 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:38.200 person at the campground and had something bad happen to him. 334 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:41.359 And Gino confirmed that the last time he saw Charles 335 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:43.839 was on the same night as an all night party 336 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:47.200 took place at the campground, and the following morning, when 337 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:50.559 Gino woke up, he discovered that Charles's tent and his 338 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:55.079 personal belongings were still there, but Charles himself was nowhere 339 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:58.839 to be found. And if Gino's recollection was accurate, we're 340 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:02.000 hearing about a party taking place in Charles going missing. 341 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:05.200 This could lend credence to the note that something bad 342 00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:08.440 happened to them and they responded by disposing of his body. 343 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:12.640 This is just feeling like it is the most likely scenario, 344 00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:18.680 and refresh my memory on the exact details of what 345 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:21.359 was said to be this potential sighting of Charles. So 346 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:24.799 both of us thought was likely a big mistake that 347 00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:27.039 it was the one that was in the club, right. 348 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:29.000 There were two of them. One of them was a 349 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:31.799 woman named Joey and Zebrov who had stayed at her 350 00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:34.799 apartment for a few days in Colonna and said that 351 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:37.119 at the end of May of nineteen eighty nine, Charles 352 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:39.599 came to her apartment tried to speak to her on 353 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:42.519 the intercom, but she couldn't invite him up because her 354 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.279 brother was visiting for a family reunion and they had 355 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:47.960 just too much going on, and sheeva certain this took 356 00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:50.559 place sometime in May, which makes sense. But the police 357 00:18:50.599 --> 00:18:53.359 looked into the background of the brother found out that 358 00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:56.759 he took time off from work to visit Colonna in July, 359 00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:00.480 so they believed that the sighting actually took place in July, 360 00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:03.400 two months after Charles went missing, even though joe Anne 361 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:05.680 was certain that it was in May, which would make 362 00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:09.000 more sense because why would Charles abandon all his possessions 363 00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:11.559 at the campground, disappear for two months, and then show 364 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:14.880 up at Joanne's apartment in July. And then the second 365 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.359 sighting was at a nightclub where Joanne thought she saw 366 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:19.680 Charles from a distance and waved at him and he 367 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:22.480 waved back. But I'm inclined to believe that she saw 368 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:25.440 someone who looked like him because she didn't actually make contact. 369 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:27.680 It was just a wave in the background in any dark, 370 00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:28.599 noisy place. 371 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:33.240 Yeah, the club sighting, it could have been anybody. It's 372 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.880 so hard to see somebody and to accurately be able 373 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:38.000 to unless they're right in front of your face, to 374 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.440 know that it is indeed that person. It's dark it's 375 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:45.720 really dim. I mean you basically see outlines and to 376 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:50.559 correctly identify somebody I don't know. I think Joanne likely 377 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:54.400 was mistaken with the club sighting because how would Charles 378 00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:57.279 have been living, how would he have any resources. We 379 00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:59.079 know that he wasn't showing up for work, we know 380 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:01.559 he didn't have any of his belongings, So to believe 381 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:04.119 that he would just randomly be at this club, and 382 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:08.759 then that other sighting where Joanne was saying may and 383 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.000 it was law enforcement that looked into it and was 384 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:13.759 like woll by process of deduction, it had to have 385 00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:16.640 been July when the brother was visiting, and when Joanne 386 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:20.119 had seen Charles last, which it could have just been 387 00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:24.359 that somehow Joanne was conflating the two timelines when she 388 00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:26.960 was thinking back and thinking her brother was there, or 389 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:29.319 maybe her brother just stopped by for a quick visit. 390 00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:32.640 I think to assume that Joanne was wrong with her 391 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:35.279 timeline just because that's when the brother took time off 392 00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:37.559 work is a pretty big assumption. 393 00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:41.759 Yeah, I totally agree. I think. I know eyewitnesses can 394 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:43.680 be mistaken a lot, but I think that there's not 395 00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:46.200 going to be a two month discrepancy of when you 396 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:49.119 remember that a family member is going to visit. And 397 00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:51.279 like we said, it just makes no sense that Charles 398 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:54.240 would just disappear for two months without his possessions, because 399 00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:56.799 not only did he leave his tent and his clothing behind, 400 00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:00.519 he left behind a stash of family photographs and his 401 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:02.960