Speaker 1: Welcome friends, It's coming podcast. Podcast is done. Show Jackie
Speaker 1: again Ryan. They're talking tout mob moming. No Bock has
Speaker 1: only ready Bother used to say that you were put
Speaker 1: here for a reason, so you're fluent last week because
Speaker 1: he still stand for truth, justice, all that stuff. It's
Speaker 1: a bird's no look, it's you wanted to see Me?
Speaker 1: Rated PG. Thirteen in theaters in Imax June twenty eighth.
Speaker 1: Welcome to a movie film commentary track. My name is
Speaker 1: Zaki Hassan. I'm here at Brian Hall. Hey, how's it going, Zachi.
Speaker 1: I'm doing well. Brian. I'm actually I'm glad you hopped on.
Speaker 1: I'm actually I wanted to tell you about the new
Speaker 1: article I'm working on. It's called Why the World Doesn't
Speaker 1: Need Brian Hall. I thought you might like to get
Speaker 1: a sneak preview of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe we can get into that while.
Speaker 1: We Maybe it'll win me a pulletzer, the way Lois
Speaker 1: Lane won a pulletzer for Why the World Doesn't Need Superman.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I mean I only just abandoned you
Speaker 2: for five years without any explanation or goodbye, so.
Speaker 1: It was a little hurtful. I'll be honest, I can
Speaker 1: kind of see it. We're here to talk about Superman returns.
Speaker 1: It seems like it's a timely place for this discussion,
Speaker 1: given that we are about to witness Superman's latest return
Speaker 1: to the cinemas via Superman.
Speaker 2: Yeah this week, which you have already seen but I
Speaker 2: have not.
Speaker 1: I know some interesting context as we go into this discussion.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, all kinds of double entendres peppered into our conversation.
Speaker 1: Potentially I won't even know. There'll be There'll be electric
Speaker 1: throughout this discussion, far more electricity I might offer than
Speaker 1: in the movie that we're about to watch, which is
Speaker 1: notably electricity free, at least in terms of chemistry between people.
Speaker 2: No, I mean you being the Superman fan that you are.
Speaker 2: I I this came out in two thousand and six.
Speaker 2: I don't even remember, honestly what your thoughts are on
Speaker 2: this movie. So I'm really looking forward to digging into this.
Speaker 1: I have many thoughts. The one piece of context I
Speaker 1: will offer before we hit play is that it is
Speaker 1: now nineteen years since this movie came out, By the way,
Speaker 1: the same amount of time between Superman for the Quest
Speaker 1: for Piece and Superman Returns. Wow, it's passed since it's crazy.
Speaker 1: And in those nineteen years, I have watched this movie
Speaker 1: the whole way through exactly twice, once being opening night
Speaker 1: in two thousand and six, once being last night when
Speaker 1: I watched it in prep for this discussion.
Speaker 2: Wow, well me too, me too. So I'm amazed how
Speaker 2: much I remember and just how long it had been
Speaker 2: at the same time and so.
Speaker 1: Again, and how long it is and how long it is.
Speaker 2: But I was gonna say, you, being the you know,
Speaker 2: the Superman fan that you are, it's fascinating that you
Speaker 2: haven't gone back even just sort of skipped through it
Speaker 2: or something throughout the years.
Speaker 1: So I very very curious, there you go. So there's
Speaker 1: there's just you know, maybe tipping my hands slightly, but yeah,
Speaker 1: there's something something knowing. Anyway, Hey, we're about to watch
Speaker 1: the movie. You can watch along with us. If not,
Speaker 1: you know, you can listen to us a gab about
Speaker 1: what we think of what we're seeing on screen while
Speaker 1: you go about your day doing doing other stuff, maybe
Speaker 1: more productive stuff. I don't know. I know this movie
Speaker 1: has its fans, so I don't want to inadvertently offend.
Speaker 1: But you know, let's see how this discussion goes So
Speaker 1: we're gonna do the usual thing. We're gonnait play on three,
Speaker 1: one two three, play Brian, you're ready, I'm ready. Here
Speaker 1: we go, all right, one two three? Quite all right? Wait?
Speaker 2: Have we ever commented on the fact that the subtitles
Speaker 2: say that as Time Goes By is playing over the
Speaker 2: Warner Brothers logo.
Speaker 1: I don't think we have commented on that. I've never
Speaker 1: noticed that before. I don't think, really, yeah, that the
Speaker 1: subtitle say it, or that it does.
Speaker 2: In fact, I've noticed that it's used the couple notes
Speaker 2: from it. Yeah, but I didn't realize that the captioning
Speaker 2: actually calls it out.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad it does it. It's worth the calling
Speaker 1: out now, we know that's nice. Right, yep. This is
Speaker 1: the DC Comics logo that existed for a brief time
Speaker 1: in the in the mid auts. I think they used
Speaker 1: it on Dark Knight Rises and this and handful of
Speaker 1: other things. It is no longer the DC logo. I
Speaker 1: only bring that up to say that, you know, I
Speaker 1: was during that era. I was by ending my comic
Speaker 1: books and my my voluminous DC Comics collection. I was like, well,
Speaker 1: this is the DC Comics logo, so that's what I use.
Speaker 1: So the overwhelming majority of my books have that short
Speaker 1: lived logo on them. I kind of like it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so now no, I'm just kind of hanging on. I'm like, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a retro thing, you know. Well.
Speaker 2: I have to say when that logo came up last night,
Speaker 2: we had finished recording an episode and I had edited
Speaker 2: the episode and write it for that, I went to
Speaker 2: dinner you know, are a dinner at home, and then
Speaker 2: I started this movie up. So it was kind of
Speaker 2: a marathon of all this stuff. So I was a
Speaker 2: little tired, and I got to say the sound design
Speaker 2: during that logo, I was like, not prepared. I was like,
Speaker 2: it's very intense. It feels like one of those things
Speaker 2: when they do a demonstration for the sound system in
Speaker 2: a theater before the movie starts. I was like, damn,
Speaker 2: I hope that guy got some sort of nod for
Speaker 2: that frong.
Speaker 1: I was like, whoa, So right up top here we
Speaker 1: begin with the Marlon Brando narration from the first film,
Speaker 1: and we're dropped into the explosion of Krypton and then
Speaker 1: into a credit sequence that is slavishly homaging the Richard
Speaker 1: Donner film. And so that's sort of what you realize
Speaker 1: watching this movie, is that a it is one of
Speaker 1: the earliest examples of a legacy sequel. Yeah, right, But
Speaker 1: really it's just Brian Singer wanting to cause play that
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight movie because it it you know, it
Speaker 1: attempts to be a sequel, but really it's just going
Speaker 1: through most of the same beats from that original movie. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I would offer that it for somebody who professes
Speaker 1: to be such a big fan of that film. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, he essentially went and got, you know, permission
Speaker 1: from Richard Donner, know, who is his producer on the
Speaker 1: X Men films, to pitch for this whatever. I'm I
Speaker 1: just I'm stunned by how he seems to have missed
Speaker 1: all of the important bits about not just that movie,
Speaker 1: but that character. Hmmm. And that's rather remarkable to me
Speaker 1: because because you know this this movie didn't perform the
Speaker 1: way Warner Brothers had hoped, even though it did okay,
Speaker 1: And and right away it was like, oh, well, that's
Speaker 1: what happens when you try to stick to that old
Speaker 1: style and what you know of those seventies and eighties movies,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yeah, but this is not this does
Speaker 1: not evoke those movies in any way other than hearing
Speaker 1: the music. I agree, I agree, you know, yeah, visually
Speaker 1: it's really muddy and kind of you know, it bugged
Speaker 1: the piss out of me when I was too right zachy.
Speaker 2: All right, So look, I a lot of times I'll
Speaker 2: use your you know, Voodo account to watch some of
Speaker 2: these movies. But I was like, all right, look, I'm
Speaker 2: paying for freakin' HBO. It's available on HBO Max. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna use the thing I'm paying for. So I watched
Speaker 2: it and I thought, oh, this is is this not
Speaker 2: four K?
Speaker 1: Like, what's the This is kind of blurry and kind
Speaker 1: of yeah, muddy looking.
Speaker 2: And so then I switched over to your voodoo thinking
Speaker 2: you would have a better copy of it, and it
Speaker 2: was the same same, and I and I since I
Speaker 2: was very curious about it, so I learned that this
Speaker 2: was you using an early digital camera. You know, this
Speaker 2: is a Revenge of the Sith was only a year
Speaker 2: before this, so it was a Panavision Genesis HD camera
Speaker 2: and you can kind of tell it's like the early
Speaker 2: I mean, now digital looks incredible and they apply all
Speaker 2: sorts of filters and things onto it to make it
Speaker 2: look more filmic. But this movie has this weird like
Speaker 2: smooth doubt, kind of like an Instagram filter look to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, which is Yeah.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately I kept thinking, and I don't always think this,
Speaker 2: but I was thinking, Man, this movie would have looked.
Speaker 1: Gorgeous on film.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's It's kind of a shame it hasn't aged
Speaker 2: well visually.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I would say, the majority of the visual
Speaker 1: effects and things are hold up. Okay, yeah, yeah, but
Speaker 1: with some exceptions, which I suspect will point out. But
Speaker 1: in general, I question this idea that, oh, this is
Speaker 1: this is meant to be, you know, singer sort of
Speaker 1: continuing that legacy because I'm like, in in most measurable ways,
Speaker 1: it feels disconnected from from those other movies. Like I
Speaker 1: don't and we'll get into it. I mean, some of
Speaker 1: the casting in this movie is catastrophic.
Speaker 2: I feel like a listener now I'm gonna just sort
Speaker 2: of look at my lips like I want to hear
Speaker 2: all of this.
Speaker 1: So this is Noel Neil, who played who's the very
Speaker 1: first Lois Lane. She was Lowis Lane in the Kirk
Speaker 1: Allen serials and then also on the in the George
Speaker 1: Reeves television series. She was the second lowest lane on
Speaker 1: that show. How unfortunate for her having to play this scene.
Speaker 1: Good lord, it's this is so odd, right, So you've
Speaker 1: got this wealthy dowager who who Lex Luthor has shown
Speaker 1: pleasures that no other woman has known, which I'm like, okay.
Speaker 2: That's I remember this. This is one of the few
Speaker 2: things I remember from this movie from nineteen years ago,
Speaker 2: and just being like, just this movie feels like it
Speaker 2: starts off on the wrong foot yep, and stays there
Speaker 2: and stays there the entire time, you know, and not
Speaker 2: just this, I mean this is kind of gross.
Speaker 1: Yeah, icky, yeah, but I mean maybe not out of
Speaker 1: character for Luthor or whatever.
Speaker 2: But then when you just get into the story about
Speaker 2: Superman being gone for five years, like, to me, this
Speaker 2: felt like a sequel, like we needed the first movie
Speaker 2: to understand why Superman would leave like he did in
Speaker 2: the manner that he left. Instead, we're just told he left,
Speaker 2: he didn't say goodbye, and now he's back and he
Speaker 2: wonders why everyone's upset. Right, It's not a great way
Speaker 2: to start your Superman not at all.
Speaker 1: And for a variety of reasons. And let's just let's
Speaker 1: just stay with this portion for a moment. This sequence
Speaker 1: is ostensibly to explain why Lex Luthor has a boat.
Speaker 1: I guess sure, yeah, I mean it has no bearing
Speaker 1: on anything, right, Like, if the movie just starts with
Speaker 1: him being wealthy, we're not going to be like where
Speaker 1: did he get? Where do he get all that coin? Right?
Speaker 1: So very odd. Now, now, Parker Posi, I gotta say,
Speaker 1: watching this movie, I'm like, A, she's great in this yeah.
Speaker 1: B she should have been Lois Lane.
Speaker 2: Ah, sure, a little more pluck, yeah, you know, yeah interesting, Yeah,
Speaker 2: she's not given a lot to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Parker Posey's just one of those actors who has
Speaker 1: kind of she She just has a has a spark,
Speaker 1: you know. Oh I love her. Yeah she Well.
Speaker 2: I remember I worked on a Christopher Guest movie directly
Speaker 2: after she filmed this, so I got to sit down
Speaker 2: and have lunch with her, and I was asking.
Speaker 1: Her about this movie.
Speaker 2: I have like funny, vivid memory of that and saying like,
Speaker 2: I mean, I know you probably can't say much, but
Speaker 2: how was it. I Mean, it's such a big scale
Speaker 2: movie and the only thing I remember her saying, was
Speaker 2: that Brendan Routh, She's like, he's so sweet.
Speaker 1: That's what I hear to this day. Yeah, yeah, but man,
Speaker 1: I had such a crush on her then. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was like such an awesome thing getting to sit
Speaker 1: and talk with her like that. But but yeah, but
Speaker 1: in this movie, all she does is just sort of
Speaker 1: look glum and yeah, well she's kind of playing the
Speaker 1: Valerie Parine character.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but she doesn't even like speak much like she
Speaker 2: just since that it's interesting. It feels like a waste
Speaker 2: of her talents.
Speaker 1: Oh, I one hundred percent agree with that, And I
Speaker 1: think I think that could apply for many of the
Speaker 1: people here. I mean even Marie Saint. I mean she's
Speaker 1: a legend. Yeah, and why wouldn't you make Martha Kent
Speaker 1: more of a prominent character She gets basically two scenes
Speaker 1: in this movie, right, don't really impact the story very much.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing. Okay, so, and you alluded to this earlier.
Speaker 1: The movie's premise is that, yeah, Superman left Earth five
Speaker 1: years ago. He let and and the movie gets into
Speaker 1: it a little bit. He thought Krypton was still there.
Speaker 1: He went over there and turns out it's not there
Speaker 1: and so he came back right. It took and it
Speaker 1: took five years there and back right now. There is
Speaker 1: a scene that they filmed that you can you can
Speaker 1: watch it on YouTube that that I don't know if
Speaker 1: you had a chance to check it out. No, I
Speaker 1: read about it. I didn't realize it was available. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you watch it. It's just it's it's Superman's ship, you know.
Speaker 1: It's the big crystalline ship from the first film, just
Speaker 1: kind of going through the wreckage and it's very haunting
Speaker 1: because it is the Krypton from that first movie, so
Speaker 1: you recognize it, you know what I mean. And it's
Speaker 1: like we just talked about Jurassic World. It's a little
Speaker 1: bit like going through the visitor center. I I know this,
Speaker 1: you know. And then it's him and then as he
Speaker 1: gets closer, there's like Kryptonite all around and it starts
Speaker 1: making him sick, so he leaves the end. Okay. Now,
Speaker 1: this was a ten million dollars sequence that they shot, yeah,
Speaker 1: and completed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then verted into Imax three D.
Speaker 1: The works, okay, and then they're like, nah, it doesn't work,
Speaker 1: and a I'm like, think about that for a second.
Speaker 1: Ten you could have shot four movies with that. Yeah right, yeah,
Speaker 1: so this is Brian Singer just like actively pissing away
Speaker 1: Warner Brothers money, right, Yeah. But fundamentally, what it gets
Speaker 1: to is that the entire premise of the movie this
Speaker 1: idea that Superman left for five years and he came
Speaker 1: back and the world has moved on without him. That's
Speaker 1: actually not a bad premise for a film, right, Sure,
Speaker 1: certainly that's what Kingdom Come, the comic book series by
Speaker 1: Mark Wade and Alex Ross, that's what it's about, Right,
Speaker 1: Superman ended up leaving and then events call him back
Speaker 1: in and that in that case, it was, you know,
Speaker 1: the world decided they didn't want Superman anymore, you know,
Speaker 1: But does.
Speaker 2: It begin that way? Like, what's the beginning of that story?
Speaker 2: Is he away and he returns?
Speaker 1: Yeah? So there's basically a mass there's a mass killing
Speaker 1: event that happens as a result of a superhero battle
Speaker 1: and Superman is essentially in retirement, right, and a wonder
Speaker 1: woman comes to him and she's like, you know, the
Speaker 1: world needs you again, and he's pulled back in, And
Speaker 1: if you haven't read the Kingdom Come, a terrific story, right,
Speaker 1: But but it gets to fundamentally this idea of what
Speaker 1: a Superman represent, Why, why is it? Why is he important? Right?
Speaker 1: And you feel like this film was sort of nipping
Speaker 1: around the edges of that as a premise. But I
Speaker 1: think that when when you make the reason for Superman's
Speaker 1: absence so nakedly selfish, it's just odd, Like, I don't
Speaker 1: I don't believe there's any circumstance where Superman will be like,
Speaker 1: all right, guys, I'm gonna peace out for five years.
Speaker 1: You guys got this right, right, especially given that this
Speaker 1: film was you know, per Brian Singer, this is ignores
Speaker 1: three and four, And indeed it does. We know it
Speaker 1: does because in three and four, Martha Kent is deceased,
Speaker 1: so her existence as movie says, Oh okay, it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of it's its own timeline. But the end
Speaker 1: of Superman two, and we've talked about this before, is
Speaker 1: literally Superman at the White House telling the President I'm
Speaker 1: sorry I was gone so long, mister President. I won't
Speaker 1: let you down again. I forgot about that except in
Speaker 1: like a week when I leave. So sorry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean that's I agree with you. I
Speaker 2: can see that as a concept, But yeah, you can't
Speaker 2: just put text on screen at the beginning, That's right,
Speaker 2: you know, that just says like Superman decided to leave, yeah,
Speaker 2: and now he's back, and then when we pick up
Speaker 2: our narrative, yeah, everyone's just sad. I mean, this is
Speaker 2: such a melancholy movie.
Speaker 1: It really is. And so and and that's what I
Speaker 1: mean when I say tonally, it just doesn't fit with
Speaker 1: with those earlier films, you know, because say what you
Speaker 1: will about the Richard Donner movie, I mean it treats
Speaker 1: it seriously, but it's it it steps lightly. You know,
Speaker 1: There's there's moments of humor, there's moments of joy throughout, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: and and this is a joyless slog yeah yeah. So
Speaker 1: I mean.
Speaker 2: Just alone this being supposedly a kickoff to Superman again,
Speaker 2: like you said, it had been you know, almost two
Speaker 2: decades since, Like this is a reboot essentially, even though
Speaker 2: well I mean is it though, I mean to your point, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's sort of a continuation, but in a way, yes,
Speaker 2: new cast, new era. And so this just seems like
Speaker 2: a weird story to begin with, weird tone to begin with,
Speaker 2: Like I don't even know what a sequel would look like.
Speaker 2: To this, like yeah, yeah, right, yeah, Now this was
Speaker 2: the same year as Batman Begins, right.
Speaker 1: Or years later? This was one year later?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so just trying to put it in a
Speaker 2: timeline in my brain.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if I'm not mistaken, I believe there was
Speaker 1: a teaser for this attached to Batman Begins. Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but they both came out in June, so it was
Speaker 1: five and o six, you know, And it's worth recognizing,
Speaker 1: you know, Batman Begins did okay, but it wasn't like
Speaker 1: a smash hit, right, like we forget that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was looking just at box office stats and this
Speaker 2: outgrossed Superman returns out gross Batman Begins.
Speaker 1: That's right, Which is interesting because.
Speaker 2: The Nolan Batman would then, you know, change the course
Speaker 2: of superhero movies for years and years to come.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just didn't know it yet. Well, and that's somewhat
Speaker 1: ironic to me, Like when you watch Batman Begins, that
Speaker 1: is very much a spirit ritual air to the Richard
Speaker 1: Donner Superman. Yeah, and Christopher Nolan said as much. Right,
Speaker 1: the Donner Superman informed how he approached telling the story,
Speaker 1: who he cast, etcetera, etcetera. Right, Right, And and I
Speaker 1: going into this is worth recognizing there was a lot
Speaker 1: of enthusiasm because Brian Singer had this is pre knowing
Speaker 1: what a sex predator he is. Yeah, so I mean
Speaker 1: that we have to sprinkle that into that. You know,
Speaker 1: we have new contexts now.
Speaker 2: I have to say I was carrying that with me
Speaker 2: as I was watching this and just second guessing things.
Speaker 2: Some things I was looking at just.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, by the real quick before I even continue.
Speaker 1: So we get Marlon Brando here, and there was a
Speaker 1: there was a settlement between Warner Brothers and the Brando
Speaker 1: estate to the tune of something like fifteen million dollars
Speaker 1: to be able to use Brando's likeness both here and
Speaker 1: in the RICHERD Donner edit of Superman two. So that's
Speaker 1: why we see Brando here, and his.
Speaker 2: Estate was refusing, and so they that was the amount
Speaker 2: that they came up with to be able to use it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And by virtue of Brando being in this
Speaker 1: movie and even Marie Saint being in this movie. This
Speaker 1: is the second movie they made together after you know,
Speaker 1: on the waterfront. On the waterfront. Yeah, yes, so I
Speaker 1: don't know, just a little little trivia. Yeah, wow, you
Speaker 1: might try putting Superman in turns in your cinema tricks
Speaker 1: and see what happens.
Speaker 2: I've oh, wow, wow, you just that this is the
Speaker 2: first moment I've gotten excited dealing with this film.
Speaker 1: No so so. Yeah. But Brian Singer, on the back
Speaker 1: of X Men and X two, he had a lot
Speaker 1: of fanboy enthusiasm, right, I can imagine yeah, right, and
Speaker 1: he bolted the third X Men to do this, and
Speaker 1: people were upset about that. But it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: but he's doing Superman, and Superman was what he was
Speaker 1: always the fan of. He wasn't a fan of X Men,
Speaker 1: and I've just watched his X Men movies in the
Speaker 1: last few weeks. I'm like, they are still good. So
Speaker 1: I'm like, maybe those movies benefited from him not being
Speaker 1: a fan, you know, sure, sure, But I've said often
Speaker 1: like he sort of he dealt body blows to both
Speaker 1: franchises X Men and Superman by leaving one for the other.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have to say to give him, look,
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, this is like the broad statement about him.
Speaker 1: He's a creep and it's terrible.
Speaker 2: Yes, just strictly speaking, watching this film, I mean, it's
Speaker 2: a gorgeous movie.
Speaker 1: I agree. Yeah, that's a great shot, beautifully shot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's It's that though, is one of its strengths
Speaker 2: and also maybe one of its weaknesses.
Speaker 1: It also reminded me sort of like someone who.
Speaker 2: Knows they're attractive and keeps staring at themselves in the mirror.
Speaker 2: That's kind of what it feels like. Watch this movie
Speaker 2: a little bit, do you know what I'm saying? Like, Look,
Speaker 2: so this movie's over two and a half hours. I
Speaker 2: would say it has under two hours of story.
Speaker 1: I definitely agree with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the photography, the shots, the shot lengths, the editing,
Speaker 2: whatever I mean generously, you could say it's reverential feeling
Speaker 2: and not so generous, kind of languid. You know, it's
Speaker 2: very in love with its look. It feels like, and
Speaker 2: I would say somewhat understandably because it is beautiful. I
Speaker 2: kept thinking over and over, like, this is very beautiful,
Speaker 2: Like it looks like a lot of paintings come to
Speaker 2: life off but they just didn't have the sense to
Speaker 2: trim some of it down and make it move maybe
Speaker 2: a better speed.
Speaker 1: Well, I remember watching this the first time, and you
Speaker 1: know that as he's running through the cornfield and he
Speaker 1: jumps in the air and the music crescendos and it's
Speaker 1: the Smallville music written by John Williams, you know that
Speaker 1: John Ottman has used and you know, I I you know,
Speaker 1: it made me feel a certain way, you know, sure,
Speaker 1: and it just reminds me of how this movie, this
Speaker 1: movie was part of my you Can't Go Home Again
Speaker 1: trifecta in the in the aughts.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, well, I think I know one of the others.
Speaker 2: What are they?
Speaker 1: Well, we had there was Planet of the Apes in
Speaker 1: two thousand and one. Yep, that's the one. Yeah, uh,
Speaker 1: and then there was this in O six, and then
Speaker 1: in eight you and I had a shared experience of
Speaker 1: course of Indiana Jones and.
Speaker 3: The Crystal Skull, and it was yeah, yeah, I Between
Speaker 3: those three it was literally like, you know, it's You're
Speaker 3: never gonna have that same experience with something new, so
Speaker 3: just cherish what you have with what's.
Speaker 1: Already there, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've often said that Kingdom of the Crystal
Speaker 2: Skull was the there is No Santa Claus moment of
Speaker 2: my adult life I've since, you know, I've oft and
Speaker 2: on it.
Speaker 1: I still say of it.
Speaker 2: But when it's on TV or something I'll stop on it,
Speaker 2: but I will never forget seeing that in the theater
Speaker 2: with you and Sean. And I literally felt like I
Speaker 2: was waking from a dream, like I had not just
Speaker 2: actually literally seen what I had seen.
Speaker 1: And I remember real real quick by if I don't
Speaker 1: know if you can see on the sill there we
Speaker 1: missed it, but there's a picture of Glenn Ford. Yeah,
Speaker 1: right there, Glenn Ford as Jonathan Kent, right next to
Speaker 1: the graduation picture. Ah, little little nod to the continuity. Yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, that's all. I just I sharing that moment
Speaker 2: with you. It was very surreal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and honestly it was. It was helpful in a way, right,
Speaker 1: it really was.
Speaker 2: I mean I think it it had to happen.
Speaker 1: It had to happen, and it that's that's what I realized,
Speaker 1: was like, you know, you're you're sort of chasing that high.
Speaker 1: And you know, I went into this movie with just
Speaker 1: an armload of anticipation and expectation, not merely that it
Speaker 1: it was a new Superman movie after so long, but
Speaker 1: that it was meant to continue on from those ones
Speaker 1: that I loved so much, you know, right, and and
Speaker 1: you know, it's it. It doesn't really do that right,
Speaker 1: and and it I wasn't alone in that reaction like that.
Speaker 1: That's been sort of interesting because to your point, like
Speaker 1: the movie did relatively okay, and I feel like it
Speaker 1: was a lot of like it's still good, it's still good,
Speaker 1: and then you realize like it's not. It's not a
Speaker 1: movie you really feel compelled to go back to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is a terrible way to kick off what
Speaker 2: you hope is, Yeah, you know, a new start to
Speaker 2: the a reinvigoration of the series for a new decade.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But you know it's funny because I saw yeah, Rotten Tomatoes,
Speaker 2: it's somewhere in the seventies. Yeah, And I was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: that feels about right, because I can't say I like
Speaker 2: out and out dislike it either.
Speaker 1: I mean, it is I don't know.
Speaker 2: Maybe it is the visuals for me carrying me, because
Speaker 2: I did like looking at it, yeah, you know, and
Speaker 2: there are some nice moments in it, but it's just
Speaker 2: not something that I would want to watch over and
Speaker 2: over and it's certainly not a promising start to like
Speaker 2: a new trilogy or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think I think the mistake is in try
Speaker 1: you know again you want to wrap your premise around
Speaker 1: this this very heavy idea of like what does it
Speaker 1: mean to have Superman and to not have Superman? And
Speaker 1: and you're also trying to get a franchise going again,
Speaker 1: and I just don't I think I think those those
Speaker 1: cross purposes don't work. Well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we you mentioned this earlier, I'm sure we'll
Speaker 2: get more into it, but there's not a huge spark
Speaker 2: between Clark and Lewis. And then also we have this
Speaker 2: like child at the end where it's.
Speaker 1: Like what do we do with that? Right?
Speaker 2: You know, it's just it just yeah, it feels like
Speaker 2: someone had a bunch of ideas and made the movie
Speaker 2: but wasn't concerned with where it was going to go next.
Speaker 1: That's that's exactly Hanny and Worth mentioning. By the way,
Speaker 1: Sam Huntington as Jimmy Olsen, he's having the most fun
Speaker 1: in this movie. Yeah, I would with some more of
Speaker 1: that energy would have been Yeah, absolutely right. Franklin Jella,
Speaker 1: who is a tremendous actor. I feel like he wandered
Speaker 1: onto the set and wandered off the set right like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if he knew the cameras were rolling
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: I made a note that it was basically like, if
Speaker 2: it wasn't played by Franklin Jella, you would forget this
Speaker 2: character was in the movie absolutely, Like he's only is
Speaker 2: memorable because it's him, that's whatever he brings just as himself.
Speaker 1: So originally they had cast Hugh Laurie. I can see that, right,
Speaker 1: And this was when House was going, so you picture
Speaker 1: him at being the curmudgeon le doctor House type, you know.
Speaker 1: And wasn't Brian Singer producer on House? Yeah? I think
Speaker 1: he directed the pilot. Yeah, and he was an EP
Speaker 1: on it. Yeah, So that was probab why And I
Speaker 1: think I think the television schedule prevented that. But when
Speaker 1: when you hear Franklin Jelly, you're like, oh, okay, I
Speaker 1: can see that, right, But like, but he doesn't have
Speaker 1: any of Jackie Cooper's energy, you know, you know you
Speaker 1: pickedure Jackie. What's everybody's standing around for? Right? You know?
Speaker 1: Like that that that kind of lovable, but like in
Speaker 1: the thick of it, you know, yep. The The other
Speaker 1: thing is Brandon Routh is I think Brandon Routh is
Speaker 1: good in this movie. I don't think he's great in
Speaker 1: this movie. And and it's mainly because of stuff that's
Speaker 1: kind of out of his hands, right Number one, that
Speaker 1: the script doesn't give either Superman or Clark a ton
Speaker 1: to do. And the other thing is he was explicitly
Speaker 1: instructed like play Christopher Reeves Clark, you know, and so
Speaker 1: it's forcing these comparisons, right Like when when you think
Speaker 1: about it, one of the best things possible for the
Speaker 1: James Bond franchise was that Roger Moore was about as
Speaker 1: different from Sean Connery as could be. Yeah, right, so
Speaker 1: like you kind of just had to reset your brain
Speaker 1: and be like, oh, this is this is somebody different, right,
Speaker 1: And I think what got route the gig is his
Speaker 1: resemblance to Christopher Reeve. But unfortunately, and it's not his fault,
Speaker 1: but it forces that comparison.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and he's just kind of missing that when
Speaker 2: it's so close you're like, oh.
Speaker 1: But it's missing the twinkle in his own.
Speaker 2: You know, just those little Yeah, you're right, it's unfair
Speaker 2: if they just let him be a bit.
Speaker 1: More, I mean the ironic thing. And the other thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, he was very young at the time, and
Speaker 1: I think he needed to ferment a little bit because
Speaker 1: he he got to play Superman again a few years
Speaker 1: ago during that cw DC mini series that they did,
Speaker 1: Crisis on Infinite Rates, and man, he was terrific in that.
Speaker 1: Oh that's great. Yeah. I pulled up his scenes again
Speaker 1: after watching this, just a resort of remind itself, like, no, no,
Speaker 1: he's very good. Mm hmm. And so you know he
Speaker 1: did need to get a few years under his belt,
Speaker 1: you know. Sure. Yeah. By the way, that's such like
Speaker 1: a weird, gross detail about the two dogs with the
Speaker 1: other dog, I know, yeah, it's like why it's so odd? Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: so cal Penn is there, like, you know, hiding wordlessly
Speaker 1: throughout this film, and you know you're kind of like,
Speaker 1: is that is that cal Pen?
Speaker 2: I remember that when it was released and thinking like,
Speaker 2: oh cool, I like this guy, and then realizing he
Speaker 2: was going to be like silent the entire movie.
Speaker 1: So apparently his character there there, there is backstory that
Speaker 1: that was written and I believe filmed that he is
Speaker 1: a disgraced Daily Planet science reporter who worked with Lex
Speaker 1: to plant a story that Krypton is still out there. Yes,
Speaker 1: and and that's what Superman off off world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I saw that that is included in the
Speaker 2: video game apparently tied with this, like that, oh interesting,
Speaker 2: I think Krypton's discovery was a hoax And I was
Speaker 2: like that makes me feel worse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so depressing. Depressing on so many levels because again,
Speaker 1: it just goes back to something fundamental that, especially in
Speaker 1: this universe where there is only Superman, he is the
Speaker 1: only hero. You know, the idea that Superman would would
Speaker 1: would leave Earth unprotected, you know, doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just that he would leave for five years. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then to learn that it was just based on
Speaker 2: a lie. I don't know it, just this, how can
Speaker 2: this movie make me feel more?
Speaker 1: Well? Well? And the fact that that it's not intrinsic
Speaker 1: to the plot mm hmm right, it's not like he
Speaker 1: comes back to Earth and he he reckons with that
Speaker 1: and and you know, like it's something essential because here
Speaker 1: here's the point. I think I've said this before, Like
Speaker 1: you could have had Superman trapped in the Phantom Zone
Speaker 1: for five years, sure, yeah, and it would be unwillingly
Speaker 1: And he's worked for five years to come back, and
Speaker 1: he comes back and he finds out the world has
Speaker 1: moved on without him. Well that's more interesting, absolutely, And
Speaker 1: it sets up more areas for your story to go
Speaker 1: because who who put him there? Are they coming back after?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Yep, this Ultimately, it's just
Speaker 1: it wanted to make a It wanted to make a
Speaker 1: meta commentary about how long Superman had not been in
Speaker 1: movies essentially and make the point that no, but we
Speaker 1: need Superman, right, which it feels like every couple of
Speaker 1: years the movies are doing that, like you know, Man
Speaker 1: of Steel is doing that, No, no, but we need Superman,
Speaker 1: and then now this new movie we need Superman. It's like,
Speaker 1: I believe you, you're right, I'm on board. I co
Speaker 1: signed your conclusion. But we don't need to keep saying it,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, like just just make a Superman movie.
Speaker 2: It was sort of like we recently were talking about
Speaker 2: the Jurassic Park movies, where it feels like the filmmakers
Speaker 2: constantly need to be like, now, we know you've seen
Speaker 2: dinosaurs since nineteen ninety three, and it's not gonna be enough.
Speaker 2: So we're gonna have all our characters be like, oh
Speaker 2: ho home, I'm bored with dinosaurs. So we're gonna make
Speaker 2: a bigger dinosaur because like we're ahead of you. We
Speaker 2: know you're already bored, and I'm always like, no, I'm not.
Speaker 2: I'm here because I like dinosaurs. Yeah, it just feels
Speaker 2: like this overthink, Yeah they do. So that's a cameo, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I meant to mention so Bo the bartender.
Speaker 1: That is Jack Larson. He played Jimmy Olsen in the
Speaker 1: in the George Reeves television series. So both of those actors,
Speaker 1: Noel O'Neil and he have passed away since then. I
Speaker 1: at this point, you know, there is no one left
Speaker 1: alive who was on the Adventure of Superman television show, sure,
Speaker 1: which is one of those weird things. I was watching
Speaker 1: I Love Lucy yesterday and you realize, like everybody's gone, Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is all that exists, you know, and there's something
Speaker 1: sobering about it is weird. Yeah. That was Richard Branson,
Speaker 1: by the way, as one of the astronauts. Oh really, yeah,
Speaker 1: because it's it's yeah, you can shoot you can see it.
Speaker 1: Yeah right there. Oh, how funny. I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: So okay, by the Peter Wilson as the flight attendant
Speaker 1: or you know, the whatever the yeah right there, okay, Ay,
Speaker 1: she was like a bigger name back then when you
Speaker 1: say that name, it rings a bell, And even seeing her,
Speaker 1: I felt like, do I ever do I know who
Speaker 1: that is? But I don't. It's on the tip of
Speaker 1: my She was on La fem Nikita right in the
Speaker 1: in the nineties, I think, on the USA say yeah, yeah, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: and she was in legal extoring gentlemen. Anyway. My point
Speaker 1: is she could have been Lois Lane. Okay, wait, so
Speaker 1: not a Kate Bosworth. So I'm just gonna say, Kate Bosworth,
Speaker 1: who you know? I've seen her be fine and other stuff.
Speaker 1: She was in no way suited for this film. The
Speaker 1: script did her dirty, but she just she just does
Speaker 1: not did not have the chops to play the role
Speaker 1: in any way that may that makes Lois in any
Speaker 1: way compelling mm hmm. And and I think it's it's
Speaker 1: the it's calamitous casting because she doesn't evoke any of
Speaker 1: the the spunk of Margot Kidder. So to make us
Speaker 1: be like, oh, it's the same character. She looks younger
Speaker 1: than Margot Kidder.
Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, I read that she's only sixteen years
Speaker 2: older than the boy.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's so odd, right, yeah, Like why do that?
Speaker 1: Why why deliberately put a clock on your premise, that's
Speaker 1: this is set X number of years after what we've
Speaker 1: already seen, sure, and then go younger. Right, So none
Speaker 1: of what they give Lois to do is particularly effective.
Speaker 1: There's no chemistry between her and Superman. There's no sense
Speaker 1: of she's like kind of a dick to Clark. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's super weird.
Speaker 2: I thought the same thing, and well it did make
Speaker 2: me wonder then what does he see in her?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: You know, someone who would be so cruel.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, sometimes she can just be like,
Speaker 2: oh Clark in the other versions, but here she seems
Speaker 2: rude to him.
Speaker 1: That's I mean, again, this goes to what I was
Speaker 1: saying before, Like, okay, let's take you at your premise.
Speaker 1: This is the sequel to Superman one and two. We've
Speaker 1: seen those movies. We see how Lois and Clark are together,
Speaker 1: even when she doesn't know he's Superman. She's very sweet
Speaker 1: to him. Yeah, she's not like hey, creep, you know
Speaker 1: or whatever. Price So it's very weird, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like like when you watch when you watch Lois and
Speaker 1: Clark in their Daily Planet scenes in Superman two, it's
Speaker 1: it's amusing. It's you know, they have bantered together and
Speaker 1: she she's the issue is not like she doesn't have
Speaker 1: any time for Clarke. It's just she views him like
Speaker 1: a brother, but she's affectionate to him like a brother, right,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Right? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, yeah, I was, I was curious.
Speaker 2: I mean, Keith Bosworth is kind of interesting, like I'm
Speaker 2: looking her up now, like Blue Crush of course comes to.
Speaker 1: Mind, like put her on the map.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I forgot about twenty one but the
Speaker 2: math co.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah with Kevin Spacey right, oh wow, yeah, see
Speaker 1: I've seen all these when a date with Tad Hamilton,
Speaker 1: but they're very much of an era. Didn't wasn't she
Speaker 1: in that other Kevin Spacey movie, The Oh yeah, that's
Speaker 1: what got her this role.
Speaker 2: Apparently he recommended her. Oh really Across the Sea.
Speaker 1: Across the Sea, that's right. Yeah, he came in saying
Speaker 1: you should cast and Spacey we should say, I mean
Speaker 1: he he okay again another sex predator, right, which makes
Speaker 1: a movie hard to watch, But he got the gig
Speaker 1: on the back of having one an oscar working with
Speaker 1: Brian Singer previously on Usual Suspects.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is it's kind of easy to forget
Speaker 2: Usual Suspects.
Speaker 1: That was such.
Speaker 2: A you know, a iconic movie of the nineties, right,
Speaker 2: and you forget that Chris McQuary, yeah, and Brian Singer
Speaker 2: are the creative forces behind that, right, because now you
Speaker 2: think of McQuary and Mission Impossible and Singer and these
Speaker 2: superhero movies. Yea, let alone his personal problems. But right, like,
Speaker 2: it just seems that movie feels like it sort of
Speaker 2: stands on its own as his own little iconic thing.
Speaker 1: But I always forget that those two were involved with that.
Speaker 1: It's interesting, well, it's it's sort of like the Dawn
Speaker 1: of the Dead remake from four, which is written by
Speaker 1: James Gunn and directed by Zack Snyder. Perfect comparison. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I'd like to rewatch Usual Suspects again because I remember
Speaker 2: it was such a That was when I was really
Speaker 2: getting in the movies, and I'd never seen a mind
Speaker 2: blowing twist like that before, and I just thought it
Speaker 2: was so incredible. I'd be curious to see how it
Speaker 2: holds up all these years later.
Speaker 1: I think. I think for me, what continues to be
Speaker 1: the most memorable part of the Usual Suspects is the
Speaker 1: parody of the Revelation scene when it wrongfully accused with
Speaker 1: Leslie Nielsen, with Leslie Nielsen, which cracks me up to
Speaker 1: this day. Yeah. Yeah, So this this opening, uh, the
Speaker 1: re intro sequence of Superman is is meant to echo,
Speaker 1: you know, the helicopter scene in the original film. First
Speaker 1: of all, Lois should be like a fine paste based
Speaker 1: on how much she's she's whipped around this cabin.
Speaker 2: I get that they need to make her stand out, yeah,
Speaker 2: in this catastrophe, but it almost borders on parody. How
Speaker 2: many shots we get of her whipping around and smashing
Speaker 2: into the wall, smashing into the ceiling, smashing into the floor,
Speaker 2: like it almost does become like a naked gun sort of.
Speaker 1: It's so funny.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And then that it's kind of an interesting moment
Speaker 4: when she's on the ceiling has the free fall and
Speaker 4: that guy's looking at her right, but they keep like
Speaker 4: cutting back and forth and back to that shot.
Speaker 2: So instead of becoming this weird shared moment between two
Speaker 2: people in peril, it almost feels like, well, help her, dude,
Speaker 2: reach out your hand.
Speaker 1: Okay, So this right here, this is and we hear
Speaker 1: this is where we hear the crescendo of the John
Speaker 1: Williams Superman theme. Yeah, and what I realized rewatching is
Speaker 1: those are the only moments when my heart kind of
Speaker 1: starts to be a little faster, right, sure, which is
Speaker 1: a problem. Now we see Superman finally in all his
Speaker 1: glory here, and what you realize is that this is
Speaker 1: an absolutely ghastly Superman costume.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, tell me about it.
Speaker 1: Well, it's it's it's weird how I described it, It's
Speaker 1: like a Timu Superman costume. Okay, because it's like they
Speaker 1: got they managed to get everything just a little bit wrong. Okay,
Speaker 1: so collectively it just looks bad, right right, So like
Speaker 1: number one, the colors are way too dark, so instead
Speaker 1: of bright red, it's like maroon, right, the blue and
Speaker 1: the red they don't go together, right, Okay, The neckline
Speaker 1: is too high, the S symbol is too small. Yes,
Speaker 1: I even thought that the trunks are too small and
Speaker 1: too low not shot again. Yeah, we'll see when when
Speaker 1: when the thing lands and the boots are too big? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and and there's says everywhere, oh is that you know?
Speaker 2: I saw something about that online and I wasn't sure
Speaker 2: if that was true or not.
Speaker 1: So there they're okay. Well number one, there's like the
Speaker 1: S on the belt buckle, there's s's on his boots.
Speaker 1: The costume is printed screen printed with s's. Okay, that's yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I saw.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just saw a bunch of little mini s's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm like, dude, like it worked, like the
Speaker 1: thing that was there, Like all you had to do
Speaker 1: was just modernize the reef suit a little bit.
Speaker 2: Well, now this comes after years of attempted uh new
Speaker 2: Superman movies, right, I mean Tim Burton of course, famously,
Speaker 2: Brett Rattner, all these other things. And there's all these stories.
Speaker 2: I mean, the one I know most famously is from
Speaker 2: Kevin Smith. Yeah, and he was involved in the script.
Speaker 2: But it seems like there was a lot of a
Speaker 2: pushback against the costume from producers at least yeah, thinking
Speaker 2: that maybe in this day and age, we need to
Speaker 2: rethink it or modernize it or get rid of the
Speaker 2: cape or so do you feel like this is a
Speaker 2: compromise then, Where Singer was like no, no, no, we
Speaker 2: get the trunks, we.
Speaker 1: Get the boots, we get the cape.
Speaker 2: But they're like, all right, well then it can't be bright,
Speaker 2: it can't look like what we know from a sunny
Speaker 2: comic book. It has to look muted, you know, darker
Speaker 2: colors because it's more serious and realistic. I mean, do
Speaker 2: you think that that's what we're looking at here?
Speaker 1: That's entirely possible. Yeah, it's odd though, right, like, because
Speaker 1: what you end up with is a very odd looking
Speaker 1: Superman suit. Sure, but real quick though, I love this
Speaker 1: when he's landing the plane and we get this like
Speaker 1: this force wave like I was just going to call
Speaker 1: that out, and when the cone crunches in his hand
Speaker 1: from the force. Yeah, like you can imagine a version
Speaker 1: where it's like, no, he just stops the plane and
Speaker 1: sets it down. But I love the sort of physics
Speaker 1: of it. They grapple with the physics of the whole process.
Speaker 1: I think it's super cool. And really this sequence right here,
Speaker 1: so about about forty minutes in is the the excitement
Speaker 1: highlight of the movie. Yeah, yeah, without a doubt. Right, So,
Speaker 1: so look at you. You can see the shot that
Speaker 1: we get of the suit here. Oh yeah, yeah, the
Speaker 1: low trunks. I see that it's so low, right, and
Speaker 1: what it does it makes his midsection look weirdly stretched
Speaker 1: out and thin. If the Brandon Routh is a big,
Speaker 1: tall guy, right, so why wouldn't you build the suit
Speaker 1: to highlight that, tokecentuate it, you know, Yeah, I do.
Speaker 2: I mean I want to call out the moments that
Speaker 2: I like, and I do like this. Yeah, I heard
Speaker 2: seeing him for the first time after you know, stopping
Speaker 2: the plane in the middle of a baseball stadium and
Speaker 2: then them clearly sharing a moment with one another, and
Speaker 2: everyone doing the sort of swivel in their seats, like
Speaker 2: watching them react to each other back and forth.
Speaker 1: That's good moment. See. So this here where everybody starts cheering, Like,
Speaker 1: I wonder would that be the way people react if
Speaker 1: he's just been gone for five years? Right? And I'm
Speaker 1: not even like I I genuinely like, I wonder, in
Speaker 1: this day and age, in this cynical age that we're in,
Speaker 1: would people be as excited when at first I wasn't sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think because.
Speaker 2: It's at the very least, I mean, he stopped a
Speaker 2: plane from crashing into the stadium, so there's probably a
Speaker 2: collective relief or something like.
Speaker 1: Hey, hey, how about this, why don't you take the
Speaker 1: plane with you? You dick.
Speaker 2: I will never forget that you made that point back
Speaker 2: in two thousand and six, and I've never forgot it.
Speaker 2: So now they got to get like a construction career
Speaker 2: in theresemb it would take.
Speaker 1: Next to no effort for him to just wait till
Speaker 1: everybody exits here, let me get this out of here,
Speaker 1: continue your game. No, no, no, he's got to be
Speaker 1: a dick about it. Not only did I leave for
Speaker 1: five years because I'm a dick for yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: sorry you were saying, well, no, but you're right.
Speaker 2: I mean, especially in this so social media TikTok whatever age,
Speaker 2: like everyone would have a hot take, you know, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: be a lot more cynical and question everything.
Speaker 1: And I will say the twenty twenty five model definitely
Speaker 1: leans into the idea of social media as a factor
Speaker 1: in how people deal with with superhumans. You know, so
Speaker 1: I think, oh, okay, I mean it makes sense. It
Speaker 1: absolutely does. Yeah. Now now this here. I remember when
Speaker 1: this movie came out, there was controversy because Perry White says,
Speaker 1: is he still for truth, justice, all that stuff? Instead
Speaker 1: of the American way? Instead of the American way. And
Speaker 1: this is nineteen years ago. There's all this controversy Fox News.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not kidding you. Know, and then and
Speaker 1: then now you know, we've got new controversy because you know,
Speaker 1: James Gunn is like, you know, Superman is an immigrant
Speaker 1: and he shows how you know, and Fox News going
Speaker 1: after it again, and I'm like a bitch, nothing changes. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I.
Speaker 2: Gotta say, it's kind of a weird ironic thing. But
Speaker 2: watching this on my iPad right now, it looks so
Speaker 2: much better, smaller.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. Yeah, lesmeary looking. Yeah, this is something about
Speaker 1: the brown and it's just the color palette is so muted.
Speaker 1: You know. One thing I loved about The Daily Planet
Speaker 1: in those first two movies is how how real it felt.
Speaker 1: It felt like all the President's men.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, you know, yeah, I mean I sort
Speaker 2: of get it.
Speaker 1: Norman Rockwell is not the right direct comparison, but some
Speaker 1: sort of warm Americana, painterly sort of that's what. That's
Speaker 1: what this feels like. But you do that for the
Speaker 1: Smallville stuff, right, that's what that?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sure, sure that's a good point. Yeah, this
Speaker 2: is like big city here.
Speaker 1: I mean, I I this kid, by the way, is adorable.
Speaker 1: He is so cute.
Speaker 2: He's the only kid I've ever I was thinking this
Speaker 2: last Night. They keep making these home alone sequels and
Speaker 2: the kid is always wrong. That's why mcaulay culkin is
Speaker 2: like a miracle of casting, right, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: They always just feel it's sort I always say it's
Speaker 2: about Fairs Bueller. You push him like one degree in
Speaker 2: this direction.
Speaker 1: He's a dick. You get series? What's that? You get
Speaker 1: Ferris Bueller the series? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like this miracle of casting where he's just
Speaker 2: kind of cool and likable. Anyway, this kid, I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: if I saw this kid in a home alone movie,
Speaker 2: I'd be rooting for him.
Speaker 1: See this here where it's like awkward and like, oh
Speaker 1: what the kids are hug I'm like what, it doesn't
Speaker 1: make any sense. I'm like, why why would you not?
Speaker 1: Why would you not try to make Lois as warm
Speaker 1: as possible?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well your friend is back after five years
Speaker 2: and she's treating him kind of like an afterthought.
Speaker 1: It's so baffling to me because if we're supposed to
Speaker 1: feel something about the idea that Lois has moved on
Speaker 1: a why would she not have moved on? Right? Of
Speaker 1: course she would because Superman left without saying anything, and
Speaker 1: you know the movie doesn't know what it wants us
Speaker 1: to feel about any of it. The other thing, by
Speaker 1: the way, is that her husband or her boyfriend, Richard
Speaker 1: played by James Martsina, is like a really good guy.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah. So you're also like, hey, Superman, why
Speaker 1: don't you just like leave him alone? Man?
Speaker 2: I know, I know, yeah, it adds to that, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's sort of melancholy feeling that I don't want to
Speaker 2: be feeling when I'm watching a Superman movie.
Speaker 1: Right. Well, you know, Brian Singer, he talked about this
Speaker 1: movie retrospectively. He's like, you know, we were we weren't
Speaker 1: really going for the super Here audience. We were going
Speaker 1: for the Devil wors Prada audience.
Speaker 2: I don't even know what that means.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and right, I'm like, well, then don't make Superman.
Speaker 1: Brian Singer, not all.
Speaker 2: But also like I like Devil wors product, like it's
Speaker 2: a that's an upbeat movie.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and and I think he made that comparison
Speaker 1: because they they were like they came out the same weekend.
Speaker 1: I think. Okay, so I suppose he wanted to get
Speaker 1: the girls in and yeah, I'm saying, like, is he
Speaker 1: basically what he's trying to say, just he's trying to
Speaker 1: make a movie for women. It's odd though, right, because yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean women watched the original Superman. Yeah, they were
Speaker 1: swept up in the fantasy of flying with Chris Chris Reeve.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But to your point, I mean, okay, so you want
Speaker 2: to maybe plus up the relationship dynamics in the story, Okay,
Speaker 2: that's cool. But like you said, yeah, James Martin's kind
Speaker 2: of a nice guy, and it's kind it becomes almost
Speaker 2: stalkerly the way that Superman just hangs out at their
Speaker 2: house and stares through the walls and even like creeps
Speaker 2: into the boy's bedroom at one point, and that's I
Speaker 2: don't think that that relates to what it says he's aiming.
Speaker 1: For, right, I mean. Marsden is like straight up the
Speaker 1: most heroic person in this movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he has no powers and he risks everything.
Speaker 1: He is actively placing himself in harm's way for no
Speaker 1: reason other than doing the right thing. He's just a
Speaker 1: good guy by the way. Marsden, you know, he he
Speaker 1: he has a very abbreviated role in X Men three
Speaker 1: because of his role in this one. So he like
Speaker 1: shows up in the beginning of X Men three, He's like, hey,
Speaker 1: how do you guys get out of here? Wolverine? And
Speaker 1: then and then he dies.
Speaker 2: It's basically by the way, I love this moment again
Speaker 2: calling out the moments I do.
Speaker 1: Like why does she why does she react like that?
Speaker 2: No, I agree, I don't like her reaction, but I
Speaker 2: love her just like Hi, like nodding across the elevator
Speaker 2: and him like yeah hi.
Speaker 1: She's so like, oh you hi, I know, I know see.
Speaker 1: And again this goes to directing, like this is this
Speaker 1: is about the how she is told to play the role. Sure, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, if nothing else, we have to buy
Speaker 1: into the warmth of Lois Lane as a person because
Speaker 1: we have to, Like, fundamentally, she is the person who,
Speaker 1: in any incarnation, is the one who who Clark, this
Speaker 1: god from across the stars, says, I want to live
Speaker 1: a normal life with this person. Yeah, we have to
Speaker 1: buy that. You know. That's one thing. You know, when
Speaker 1: you and I when we watched the Loewso and Clark
Speaker 1: television pilot, it's like you just you get it right away.
Speaker 1: Why Clark would just fall head over heels for her.
Speaker 2: Yep, you know, yeah, I mean this is a By
Speaker 2: the time this drops, the new Superman will be out.
Speaker 2: So can you at least briefly comment on how the
Speaker 2: relationship works in that one. I mean, did you like
Speaker 2: it Lewis and Clark?
Speaker 1: I loved it great. I think Rachel Brosnahan is fantastic. Okay, fantastic.
Speaker 1: She is fantastic. Yeah, and they they spark together. And
Speaker 1: I think it helps that I watched that less than
Speaker 1: twenty four hours after watching this. Sure, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it again, it is a shame, but it gets
Speaker 1: to it feels to me like I'm watching kids cosplay
Speaker 1: m even Ruth Ruth Ralph well because he's he's having
Speaker 1: to coseplay as Christopher Reeves Clark Kent.
Speaker 2: Sure, sure, but I was just thinking about the kids thing,
Speaker 2: like does he feel little too?
Speaker 1: I guess you did say that he doesn't feel as
Speaker 1: he he yeah, And I don't know if I felt
Speaker 1: that at the time, because he's like roughly our age, probably.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I think, oh yeah, I think almost exactly.
Speaker 2: He's I want to say, twenty six in this movie.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you know that's just a weird thing because
Speaker 1: Christopher Reeve was younger than that when he was Superman.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's that weird phenomenon, right, people from the seventies, eighties, whatever,
Speaker 2: they just looked so much older.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I don't know how kids would have perceived
Speaker 1: Brandon Rout in this. Yeah, but I definitely like when
Speaker 1: you when you look at him in Crisis a few
Speaker 1: years ago, it's it's like he he had aged into
Speaker 1: it in the right way. Sure. Sure, see the neckline
Speaker 1: being like right by his neck, that that I've never
Speaker 1: liked that. I think I think Superman's neckl line should
Speaker 1: be a little bit lower. I don't even like in
Speaker 1: the new movie how they give him a collar. I
Speaker 1: don't like that. Oh yeah, yeah, I don't want to
Speaker 1: see it. Oh yeah, it looks like a costume that
Speaker 1: you would buy from from Target or something, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean I noticed the darker colors and
Speaker 2: it's just like, what but the S was bothering me.
Speaker 1: Besides, of the S should, in my opinion, you know,
Speaker 1: it should sprawl out on his chest a little more
Speaker 1: because it makes the chest look bigger. Yeah. See, there's
Speaker 1: something about this scene I think. I think it's an
Speaker 1: interesting scene. And here's the thing. I think Marsden is
Speaker 1: good in it. I think when I watch Kate Bosworth,
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm watching like a fan film, like
Speaker 1: a Superman fan film, Yeah, with with actors who are
Speaker 1: not professionals and they're trying God bless them. Interesting. Now, No,
Speaker 1: why do you say that specifically? There's this one line
Speaker 1: where he's like, did you love him? And she's like,
Speaker 1: he's Superman, everybody loved him. I'm like that, I just
Speaker 1: get fan film energy from that. Interesting. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: feel bad. I don't mean to pick on Kate Bosworth.
Speaker 1: I think she was done dirty by the script and
Speaker 1: the direction. Yeah, yeah, I can see that, you know, Like, like,
Speaker 1: here's my point. This is this is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I think she's speaking. This is exactly she's speaking with
Speaker 1: within a level of like world weariness, of like experience
Speaker 1: that bilies. You know, she's a kid here, you know. Sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it doesn't feel authentic to me. Yeah, so that's
Speaker 1: why you age it up. You go with somebody in
Speaker 1: their in their thirties, God forbid? Right, right, I mean
Speaker 1: you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, yeah, there's I mean this movie is kind
Speaker 2: of about like lost love, longing, whatever. I just yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm not feeling it the way I think the movie
Speaker 2: wanted me to. Yeah, and that that that's a good point,
Speaker 2: Like I'm not seeing that on her face, and maybe
Speaker 2: her face is too young to be able to express.
Speaker 1: To be able to authentically embody it. Yeah. You know,
Speaker 1: like you know, if if Chris Reeve had not had
Speaker 1: his accident, you know, I mean, like how different things
Speaker 1: might have been, right, But you can imagine a scenario
Speaker 1: where say in two thousand and five or two thousand
Speaker 1: and six, he he comes back and plays a slightly
Speaker 1: older Superman. Yeah, and that would like going through these
Speaker 1: beats would have been interesting with with somebody like say
Speaker 1: Chris Reeve at that age. Do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, because because it's like, well, we know him,
Speaker 1: and we've been through this journey and and you know,
Speaker 1: the the loneliness he feels or whatever. It's like, we
Speaker 1: feel an empathetic connection. I don't. I think this movie
Speaker 1: is essentially saying, oh, we want you to view the
Speaker 1: story through the lens of all of that emotional connection.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't resemble that movie in any meaningful way.
Speaker 1: M hm. Right, Like when you think about it esthetically,
Speaker 1: the only thing that connects this movie to those other ones?
Speaker 1: Is the Fortress of Solitude? Yeah? Nothing else? Yeah, so
Speaker 1: we have that and the music.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that goes back to one
Speaker 2: of the first things I said, where this If this
Speaker 2: was the second movie, yeah, in a series, I.
Speaker 1: Would be able to buy into it more.
Speaker 2: Because I need all of this that we're supposed to
Speaker 2: be feeling as a result of something that need to
Speaker 2: be established earlier for me. Yeah, you know, seeing any
Speaker 2: sort of connection between Clark and Lewis, Yeah, yeah, I agree,
Speaker 2: And then I would be able to clock or buy
Speaker 2: into the sadness of this one because I already got
Speaker 2: to experience that with them.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah. This is one of the few
Speaker 1: moments I remember it also. Yeah, this is a big
Speaker 1: trailer moment when when we get like the bullet and
Speaker 1: the Eye.
Speaker 2: Doesn't this look very Wachowski like very much so like
Speaker 2: the Cops and there's sort of generic looking outfits.
Speaker 1: They look very like Matrix, Like you give me your
Speaker 1: jurism diction craft exactly.
Speaker 2: Yes, I feel like this resembles that, and we're not
Speaker 2: far off from I don't doubt that it was inspired
Speaker 2: by that.
Speaker 1: You know. The other thing to think about is that
Speaker 1: this movie came out relatively close to nine to eleven. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right, and one wonders I remember in fact, where
Speaker 1: Brian Singer talked about he thought about having a shot
Speaker 1: where Superman is at ground zero and thank goodness they
Speaker 1: didn't put that in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sort of like, oh, if I hadn't left, maybe
Speaker 2: I couldn't have stopped this. I mean, that's just gross
Speaker 2: on so many levels.
Speaker 1: So many levels exactly, a real life tragedy like that,
Speaker 1: that's exactly it. But but one presumes that maybe that's
Speaker 1: part of the reason you built, you bake in this
Speaker 1: five year time that he's gone, because at least, you
Speaker 1: know metatextually, you're able to be like, oh, like that's
Speaker 1: why Superman didn't stop nine to eleven and his Earth
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, yeah, because we're it's it's closer, yeah, in
Speaker 2: time in our mind.
Speaker 1: Like it's weird to think about, right because because at
Speaker 1: this point nine to eleven is it's just history, m m.
Speaker 1: But at this time it's still informed so much of
Speaker 1: our day to day discourse. You know, yeah, yeah, how
Speaker 1: we plugged into two media and all, you know what.
Speaker 2: I mean, absolutely, I remember there was a time Well,
Speaker 2: this is the thing, right, I mean, this was a
Speaker 2: big trailer moment.
Speaker 1: It's the trailer shot, the bullet being shot. It's pretty
Speaker 1: cool shot, although I would offer I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's as impressive given that it comes right after him
Speaker 1: taking like like five hundred bullets in his chest, you know,
Speaker 1: from like a mini gun. Yeah, but it's it's a
Speaker 1: it's a good trailer moment. That guy by the way,
Speaker 1: you know, because they had plans to make a sequel,
Speaker 1: and Brian Singer had said that the sequel would have
Speaker 1: revealed that guy who who makes that shot, that's John Corbin,
Speaker 1: who is the Superman villain Metallo. Mm hmm. This is
Speaker 1: the sequel that of course not not to be. But yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: you were saying, sorry, well not just about the nine
Speaker 1: to eleven thing.
Speaker 2: I remember when it was closer in years to that,
Speaker 2: I remember thinking, how would you make a time travel
Speaker 2: movie now, because you just have it on your mind, like, well,
Speaker 2: you've got to go warn everybody. But now I think
Speaker 2: enough time has passed it that wouldn't be one of
Speaker 2: the first thoughts in your mind, Like you said, it's
Speaker 2: become a part of history.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so weird right like time.
Speaker 2: You know, this, this whole thing with Parker Posey and the.
Speaker 1: These guys are the writers, by the way, right they
Speaker 1: wrote X two also, so they just they went over.
Speaker 1: They just jumped over with them. Damn they look very young,
Speaker 1: they really so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Parker Porte, this whole thing, just the way that
Speaker 2: it's shot and the way that it's cut. I was like,
Speaker 2: this is very uh like kinetic, but also.
Speaker 1: Unnerving in a good way.
Speaker 2: Like I mean that as a compliment, like the way
Speaker 2: it has some energy, Yeah, lots of energy, and it
Speaker 2: makes me uncomfortable, like she really does feel you know,
Speaker 2: or I complain a lot at least about like the
Speaker 2: shaky camera to try to manipulate you into thinking something
Speaker 2: crazy is happening. But this is just a really well
Speaker 2: captured feeling of being out of control.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I was really impressed with it. And then it's great.
Speaker 2: Then you have the way that they reveal that she's
Speaker 2: being carried away right where you see looks like she's
Speaker 2: about to hit something and then just slowly she lifts
Speaker 2: into the air through the windshield.
Speaker 1: It's great. See this is the type of sequence. Now
Speaker 1: we get it that you know all of this was
Speaker 1: a distraction, right, so that the lex can can lift
Speaker 1: the kryptonite. I watched this though, and I'm like, why
Speaker 1: not do it in the daytime? Right, Like most of
Speaker 1: this movie does not exist in daytime. It feels like, hmm,
Speaker 1: like I just, I just I feel like it's an
Speaker 1: odd choice, you know, it's I don't know, it does
Speaker 1: I guess it doesn't matter that much. But to me
Speaker 1: this look at that cell phone by the way, I know,
Speaker 1: I know, it just adds to this this muddy visual scheme.
Speaker 1: You know, that's a really interesting point.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it might feel more supermanesque seeing him
Speaker 2: do these fantastic things under a bright blue sky, but
Speaker 2: this feels kind of singery, doesn't it. I mean, like
Speaker 2: you think of X Men, I think of kind of
Speaker 2: like I don't know, a lot of nightscapes and that
Speaker 2: kind of cinematography.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm well, that's really what this movie drives home,
Speaker 1: is that not every director is suited to every subject
Speaker 1: matter clearly. Yeah, and again, the thinging at the time,
Speaker 1: oh well, he did this comic book thing. He'll be
Speaker 1: great with that comic book thing. And oddly enough, you know,
Speaker 1: and that was the same thing that informed Tim Burton
Speaker 1: being hired to do the Superman movie in the mid
Speaker 1: to late nineties. And I remember at the time, I
Speaker 1: was like, I don't I'm not sure about that. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's worth recognizing. I mean, this movie arrived after
Speaker 1: you know, almost fifteen years of progress of trying to
Speaker 1: get a movie made. I mean, look, it's worth remembering
Speaker 1: as late as ninety two, Christopher Reeve was at least
Speaker 1: considering coming back. Wow.
Speaker 2: And so the last one before that was Night or
Speaker 2: eighty seven.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Eight. So the soul Kinds owned the Superman rights.
Speaker 1: They licensed those rights to Golan Globus. They made Superman four,
Speaker 1: which was a disaster, and then after that the rights
Speaker 1: ended up coming back to the sal Kinds. And and
Speaker 1: I remember in the early nineties they were planning to
Speaker 1: make it was going to be called Superman the New Movie.
Speaker 1: Really literally, yeah, super So like we had Superman the Movie,
Speaker 1: this is going to be Superman the New Movie and
Speaker 1: instead of Superman five. And their plan was to basically
Speaker 1: get rid of everybody but bring back Christopher Reeve. And
Speaker 1: Carrie Bates was a combook writer. He had written a
Speaker 1: script Brainiac was going to be the villain and and
Speaker 1: Christopher Reeve had talked about it. He said, you know,
Speaker 1: it's something I'm considering. You know, it's you really, if
Speaker 1: you're going to come back, it has to be really
Speaker 1: worth it. After the disappointment of the last one, so
Speaker 1: it was he had not ruled it out. And then
Speaker 1: you know, shortly after that, obviously he had his accident.
Speaker 1: But in the interim, Warner Brothers had reacquired the Superman rights. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's why. So a couple of things. There was the
Speaker 1: super Boy television series that was produced by the sal Kinds,
Speaker 1: and Warner Brothers had by then reacquired the rights, and
Speaker 1: they were like, well, this show needs to end because
Speaker 1: they it wasn't produced by them, and that's what led
Speaker 1: to Loewis and Clark. But but even then they were
Speaker 1: in the process of developing the Superman you know, the
Speaker 1: super what what I think it started as Superman Lives.
Speaker 1: It was adapted from the Death of Superman thing, and
Speaker 1: that's what what Tim Burton eventually got involved in. Okay,
Speaker 1: Christopher Reeves accident was in five, so by that time
Speaker 1: I think it was no longer on the table for
Speaker 1: him to come back, right wow, five, Yeah, ninety Did
Speaker 1: I say five? Sorry, ninety five? I was young ninety
Speaker 1: five to when did heh? Four? He died? I see?
Speaker 1: So he lived with that condition for nine years. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's crazy. You know what was that documentary? We should
Speaker 1: recommend that? Yeah? Super Man super Slash Slash Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: did you as that? Yeah? Yeah? Oh fantastic, Yeah, very good.
Speaker 2: By the way, these pictures that Perry's upset about where
Speaker 2: he's like, you know, a boy with a cell phone
Speaker 2: took these pictures and they're better than the ones you
Speaker 2: were taking, Jimmy. And there are these, like HD beautiful
Speaker 2: photographs that this kid took with like a phone with
Speaker 2: like a potato.
Speaker 1: Camera, you know, like I looked it up out of curiosity.
Speaker 2: So if this was June two thousand and six when
Speaker 2: this came out, the iPhone came out in June two
Speaker 2: thousand and seven, Okay, so it's pretty close.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, the the Tim Burton film, I don't know
Speaker 1: if you remember like that that fell apart fairly late
Speaker 1: in the process.
Speaker 2: It was like, yeah, pretty close to shooting, wasn't it.
Speaker 1: It was? Yeah, And the plan had been like Michael
Speaker 1: Keaton was going to cameo as Batman, Like, there's all
Speaker 1: this a lot of ambitions, and I think we've talked
Speaker 1: about this before. I at this point, with with twenty
Speaker 1: you know, almost thirty years of hindsight, I'm like, I
Speaker 1: kind of wish that movie existed, just that I could
Speaker 1: see it, just so that I could see it.
Speaker 2: I know, same, same, I mean, would it have been
Speaker 2: the right thing?
Speaker 1: Like who knows? But at the time, I remember for
Speaker 1: sure at the time being like, oh please God, this
Speaker 1: sounds awful. Hey sure, yeah, yeah, Nicholas Cage just Superman't
Speaker 1: didn't sound like a great idea to me, right, But
Speaker 1: even back then, you know, and before Burton got involved,
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, Kevin Smith had written a script and
Speaker 1: I remember him talking. He John Peters was the producer,
Speaker 1: who was a producer this too, by the way, was like, oh,
Speaker 1: we gotta like we don't want I'm wearing the same
Speaker 1: old costume. It's got to look like nineties style. And
Speaker 1: Kevin Smith's like, I don't know what does that mean?
Speaker 1: You know, so literally in the script it's like first
Speaker 1: appearance of Superman. It's like Superman appears nineties style. Man's Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that fell apart in the late nineties and then
Speaker 1: and then they they the next iteration was called Superman
Speaker 1: flyby Yeah. Jj Abrams, right, jj Abrams were with the
Speaker 1: script for Originally it was going to be Brett Ratner,
Speaker 1: so we're just it's just all kinds of sex predators,
Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, right, Brett Ratner was going to direct that,
Speaker 1: and and then he dropped out, and that was kind
Speaker 1: of a that story was a little out there, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think the biggest change in that is that Krypton
Speaker 1: didn't explode. Right, It's just like in a there's a
Speaker 1: civil war, kelll is like a Kryptonian prince and that
Speaker 1: sounds terrible to me.
Speaker 2: Right, It's only he gets sent to Earth and then
Speaker 2: one of the villains from his planet comes over something
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like Lex Luthor is a Kryptonian in that script.
Speaker 2: It's just one of those things where everybody feels like
Speaker 2: they need to like subvert and it's like sometimes, no,
Speaker 2: we want to see that, we're here for the thing.
Speaker 1: Just give us the thing. Yeah, just give us the thing.
Speaker 1: And that one fell apart, by the way, because Harry
Speaker 1: Knowles of all people just tore it to shreds. Really.
Speaker 1: Oh and and back when that guy had an inordinate
Speaker 1: amount of sway in Hollywood. Yeah, I mean that wasn't era,
Speaker 1: it was yeah, you know, but but Rattner laughed and
Speaker 1: then make G was gonna direct, it was gonna be that.
Speaker 2: All these names.
Speaker 1: It's such a moment, such a moment. This is like, really,
Speaker 1: I think I think make G wanted or no, no,
Speaker 1: Brett Rattner wanted Matt Boehmer to play Superman. I can
Speaker 1: see that. Yeah, I can totally see that. I think
Speaker 1: McGee wanted Henry Cavell. Wow, yeah, because I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: Cavell auditioned for that. Yeah, he got his turn in
Speaker 1: the barrel though.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm looking at some of the under Brett Ratner's moment.
Speaker 1: There's people they wanted to cast, Josh Hart and Josh
Speaker 1: Harten Walker, Brendan Fraser, Ashton Kutcher. Like this is such
Speaker 1: a time capsule, isn't it. It really is? Yeah, Ashton Kutcher,
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yeah, can you imagine. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember, but in the lead
Speaker 1: up to Batman Begins, they were going to do Batman
Speaker 1: Versus Superman. Yeah, I have that script. I've never read it, though,
Speaker 1: how funny. Yeah, like Andrew Kevin Walker I think wrote it. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and that one. I think they were talking about Josh
Speaker 1: Hartnett playing Superman. I think Christian Bale even is going
Speaker 1: to be Batman. Wow? Really? Or like was linked to it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Wolfgang Peterson and was going to direct that, right, but
Speaker 1: he did Troy instead. Okay, it's weird how these things happen, right,
Speaker 1: certain things have to happen the way they happen.
Speaker 2: I was going to bring that up because you mentioned
Speaker 2: that a lot with if we don't do Batman and
Speaker 2: Robin Yep and the failure of that and the rethink
Speaker 2: that had to happen at Warner Brothers.
Speaker 1: We don't get Batman begins, That's right.
Speaker 2: So it makes me wonder if we had gotten that
Speaker 2: Tim Burton Superman movie, maybe it would have worked in
Speaker 2: some interesting way. Maybe it wouldn't have Where would it
Speaker 2: have directed us?
Speaker 1: Next? Right? I think that's sort of that. That sums
Speaker 1: up the dilemma that Warner Brothers has had with Superman,
Speaker 1: much more so than with Batman, because I think Batman,
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, is much more of an evergreen character. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think Superman is an evergreen also but I feel
Speaker 1: like there's just something about having to continually remind people
Speaker 1: that Superman is relevant. Yeah he gets overthought, yes, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: and and.
Speaker 2: It's beautiful, by the way, I just want to call
Speaker 2: that out, that visual of him watching her go up
Speaker 2: the elevator.
Speaker 1: Yeah, him being a creepy stalker weirdo. Well, I don't
Speaker 1: know at this moment, I thought it was kind of sweet.
Speaker 1: The way it's visualized is effective. Yeah yeah, yeah, see
Speaker 1: even this right here where she's smoking. I don't know,
Speaker 1: there's just something about it just feels like a kid
Speaker 1: in a school project. Yeah yeah, yeah. I mean I
Speaker 1: don't know if that makes sense, but right like.
Speaker 2: No, I do, I do understand, you know, yeah, you
Speaker 2: know I kind of wonder No, sorry, get back to
Speaker 2: what you were saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, just just just a button that thought I
Speaker 1: think they with with Batman. You know, it's just easier
Speaker 1: to be like, here's here's another Batman mystery, and I
Speaker 1: just kind of wish they would do that with Superman.
Speaker 1: I think that's what James Gunn is hoping to do,
Speaker 1: where it's just oh, here's another Superman. It's just you know,
Speaker 1: I think that there is a they do try too
Speaker 1: hard sometimes, Yeah.
Speaker 2: And maybe with Batman also, there's kind of a general
Speaker 2: tone you can anticipate, and maybe the style will be
Speaker 2: tweaked a little bit, but the tone you kind of
Speaker 2: know what you're walking into with a Batman movie. It
Speaker 2: with Superman, everybody has an opinion.
Speaker 1: I think to just just to push back on that
Speaker 1: a little bit. I think with Batman people are willing to.
Speaker 1: It's more elastic, there's more ability to en gumpass more tones. Sure, right,
Speaker 1: So in other words, you can go from Batman forever,
Speaker 1: oh ten years later Batman begins and still have it
Speaker 1: be Batman. H Right. I think with Superman, if you
Speaker 1: color too far outside the lines this way or that,
Speaker 1: the audience will reflect push back. Yeah, And to some extent,
Speaker 1: that's what we saw in the aftermath of Man of
Speaker 1: Steel right, where there was some folks who just would
Speaker 1: not accept that depiction of Superman. I didn't have problem
Speaker 1: with it. I know you didn't know. I really liked
Speaker 1: that movie, you know, but look, let's be real. If
Speaker 1: if everything was peaches and sunshine, we'd be talking about
Speaker 1: Man of Steel five right now, you know, instead of
Speaker 1: the umpteenth iteration. I wish we had gotten at least
Speaker 1: one more. You're not kidding.
Speaker 2: Yeah see, but even this, I mean this, I know
Speaker 2: we're not huge fans of this sort of muddy look.
Speaker 2: I almost blame the cameras more than I personally.
Speaker 1: I think you're a palette. But I would be okay.
Speaker 2: With another story in this take tone, whatever you want
Speaker 2: to call it. I just don't like the story, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't like the characterizations. That's my problem. If there
Speaker 2: had been a better story in this aesthetic.
Speaker 1: I'd be okay with it. Right. No, I'm with you.
Speaker 2: Just this sort of romantic I don't know, visual style
Speaker 2: or something that's kind of interesting from like a movie
Speaker 2: or two. But I just yeah, like you you've been doing.
Speaker 1: This right here real quick. She's like, oh, Clark said
Speaker 1: da da da, And he's like Clark, who's that? I'm like,
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? Like I know I thought
Speaker 1: that too, And she's like, Oh, he's just some guy
Speaker 1: I work with. Yeah, it's just irks me, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well that's interesting because then it maybe makes you
Speaker 2: think of sometimes you read about a filmmaker that comes
Speaker 2: in that thinks or says, well, I wasn't really a
Speaker 2: fan of material, so I was like, well, can.
Speaker 1: I bring to this? Right?
Speaker 2: But you're saying that he came in as a big
Speaker 2: fan of Superman, so it's interesting how.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and my my question is a fan of what? Yeah? Right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like what was it that supposedly spoke to you? Because again,
Speaker 1: just just to go back to what I was saying before,
Speaker 1: if you watch Batman begins and Chris Nolan tells you, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a big fan of Donner Superman, I'd
Speaker 1: be like, oh, right on, I see it, right, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't see it here? Yeah, I see the most
Speaker 1: superficial elements, right right. I think I think fundamentally what
Speaker 1: what I don't get a sense of in this film
Speaker 1: is Okay, he he's back and he's helping, but he
Speaker 1: enjoys helping people. Mm hmm. Here it's like a burden. Hmmm.
Speaker 1: He never smiles. That's the other thing, right, people remember
Speaker 1: a Man of Steel? Oh why doesn't he smile? I'm like,
Speaker 1: bro does not smile in this movie except for a
Speaker 1: few bits here and there, you know, but literally, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a bit he's like, you say the world doesn't
Speaker 1: need to say it. And every minute I hear people
Speaker 1: calling up for one or whatever. Right, I'm like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, Like, you know, it's funny.
Speaker 2: I did that bumped me also because I don't I
Speaker 2: understand what he's saying. But yeah, maybe it's the delivery
Speaker 2: or something. It doesn't feel very.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, well it makes it seem like a burden. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And I think I think, and maybe this is just me. Look,
Speaker 1: I'm bringing my own biases, but you know, I've got
Speaker 1: several decades of Superman fandom, and I think I think
Speaker 1: the most aspirational aspect of Superman is that he enjoys
Speaker 1: helping people. He's like, I can do this, and that's
Speaker 1: what I can do is help, right, you know. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, Christopher Reeve said this, right, what makes him
Speaker 1: a hero is that he has all this power, but
Speaker 1: he has the decency to use it the right way, right,
Speaker 1: And and so this sense of like, ah, here I
Speaker 1: go helping, you know, oh, let me rescue this woman.
Speaker 1: Like dude, it's like, don't do us any favors Man,
Speaker 1: right right? Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's just even watching these scenes, which by the way,
Speaker 2: are beautiful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is really beautiful.
Speaker 2: Him them, Superman and lois flying together here over the city.
Speaker 2: Although I did wonder why you took that detour to
Speaker 2: her house. I was like, he like left the city
Speaker 2: to swing by her house and.
Speaker 1: She's just to specifically like, hey, that's where you live.
Speaker 2: But then they go back. I don't know, it just
Speaker 2: felt weird to me.
Speaker 1: That's where you live with the man that you're not
Speaker 1: with right now, right right.
Speaker 2: But yeah, there's just a real wistfulness. I mean, just
Speaker 2: looking at this with the sound off, it's just making me,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I want to feel a little. You said,
Speaker 2: it's humorless and there's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, no jubilance, and there's no joy and
Speaker 1: there's no but it is beautiful. I mean this, this
Speaker 1: is beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, I think that you need to
Speaker 1: balance the quiet moments with some big action beats, and
Speaker 1: this movie is conspicuously devoid of big action beats. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And this is this is where I say, like Man
Speaker 1: of Steel, like I, in my opinion, overcorrected a little
Speaker 1: too far in the other direction where you just have
Speaker 1: super destructo you know, nine to eleven times three, right,
Speaker 1: and it's like, can we just can we find a
Speaker 1: happy medium here? Please?
Speaker 2: I know, I remember that's my one note, like I
Speaker 2: would love to watch a fan cut version of that
Speaker 2: movie that scales back a bit in the third act,
Speaker 2: because it goes on like.
Speaker 1: A little too long. Yeah. My resturrection from our conversation
Speaker 1: when we watched it is like, you know, maybe trim
Speaker 1: the Smallville action scene a little sooner and then and
Speaker 1: and he had dialed by down by like ten percent,
Speaker 1: you know, act three, you know, And I think they're
Speaker 1: still trying to lick that, you know. I think I
Speaker 1: think even even the new film, without getting into it,
Speaker 1: I think gets a little a little too much for
Speaker 1: me personally, you know. Interesting, I think that when we
Speaker 1: think about it, the third act of Superman seventy eight
Speaker 1: is the San Andreas fault, which was fairly like that.
Speaker 1: That was large scale back then, right, but it feels sedate,
Speaker 1: you know, compared to what we can do now. And yet,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, when you watch that movie, you still
Speaker 1: feel it all this stuff where he's going from this
Speaker 1: place is trying to you know, fix this that, you know,
Speaker 1: the rescue people from the dam and fix the fault,
Speaker 1: and like all of that tracks and I think that's
Speaker 1: like the third act of this movie. It's just nonsense
Speaker 1: to me. You know, yeah, there are no stakes, and
Speaker 1: you know it's a weird one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's just the moment we just
Speaker 2: saw where she's come back from flying with Superman and
Speaker 2: then her hair's all must up and she's confronting James
Speaker 2: Marsin's character and it, you know, it kind of has
Speaker 2: like a sexual sort of allusion to it.
Speaker 1: It's just I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't want to have to wrestle with these feelings
Speaker 2: watching this movie and sort of feeling bad for the
Speaker 2: Martian character.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing. I'm trying to figure out, what
Speaker 1: does the movie want me to feel? Right, Because on
Speaker 1: the one hand, you say, well, we like Lois, so
Speaker 1: of course we'd want her to be with a good guy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you don't want to paint him as being just
Speaker 1: a total jerk, you know.
Speaker 2: But I'm not getting any sense of what they had before, right,
Speaker 2: So I'm not sensing like, oh, this feels right with
Speaker 2: them back together. Yes, it's missing for me, Yeah, odd
Speaker 2: choices yeah yeah. Uh oh, someone's been in my bed.
Speaker 1: Somebody's been sleeping in my bed and they're still here. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm like, Superman, just put a lock on your ship. Man,
Speaker 1: it feels like, yeah, this should be a better security system.
Speaker 1: This is a recurring problem because of course in Superman two,
Speaker 1: Lex gets into the fortress. Yep. I think the krypton
Speaker 1: Os isn't great where Joe L's like hey, my son,
Speaker 1: and Lex is like.
Speaker 2: Hey, dad, right, tell me everything.
Speaker 1: Give me all your passwords exactly. That's really funny.
Speaker 2: Wait, now something I read tell me if this is true.
Speaker 2: Brandon Routh auditioned for Smallville.
Speaker 1: That sounds familiar, That sounds right. That's interesting.
Speaker 2: It's funny how it's just some people have the Superman look.
Speaker 2: So even Henry Cavell being in conversation this early, you know,
Speaker 2: and it's like they're just always going to be on
Speaker 2: the short list. I guess it's a little bit like Bond, right,
Speaker 2: and then yeah, like you know, you know, if if
Speaker 2: you're a male between this age and this age, and
Speaker 2: you have certain certain characteristics.
Speaker 1: You'll probably be on that list, you know. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: certainly Henry Cavell, I've said it before. I mean that
Speaker 1: man was chiseled from granite to play Superman. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: was put on this earth to play Superman at least once.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm glad he got that chance. Yeah, yeah, same,
Speaker 1: And to your point, I wish he'd gotten a few
Speaker 1: more chances. Yeah. Same. So Lowis is just like a
Speaker 1: bad parent, right, this is crazy. Yeah. She's like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm going to wander onto this strange boat. Come on, son, Yeah,
Speaker 1: in pursuit of something that's kind of hinky. But like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I have my son, I'll just bring him along, I do.
Speaker 1: This is kind of funny. The kid is like, are
Speaker 1: we trespassing? She doesn't?
Speaker 2: She say like no, well yes, but I mean yeah,
Speaker 2: I would never do this by myself. Yeah, but this
Speaker 2: is kind of a good moment there though, when she's
Speaker 2: surprised both of them, her ends Lex are surprised to
Speaker 2: see one another. Well, I love that the discovery of
Speaker 2: the wigs is the like to me, it's like it's
Speaker 2: like in Star Trek two, Checkov sees the Botany Bay
Speaker 2: Botany Bay.
Speaker 1: We have to get out of here, you know, right,
Speaker 1: and it's that equivalent. There's just like wigs, wigs like
Speaker 1: other people wear wigs. Right, right, let's talk about Kevin
Speaker 1: Spacey as Lex Luthor. Yes, please, I feel like this
Speaker 1: is something that works great in concept, certainly back then
Speaker 1: pre like everything yeah, you know, pre me gesturing all
Speaker 1: of this. You know, you're like, oh, yeah, totally makes sense.
Speaker 1: And yet he doesn't make much of a mark in
Speaker 1: this movie. In my opinion, is that strange because he
Speaker 1: is hamming it as much as this movie hams. Yes, right,
Speaker 1: So why do you think that is? He's just I
Speaker 1: don't know, just tonally. I have a hard time buying
Speaker 1: him as the gene Hackman les sure, yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I think that might factor in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's just something sort of well, I mean,
Speaker 2: Gene Hackman, gen Hackman.
Speaker 1: But I mean certainly Kevin Spacey mid two thousands was
Speaker 1: at least as well regarded. Oh yeah, oh maybe it
Speaker 1: was his moment, right, I mean, he had won two Oscars,
Speaker 1: but this point, yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Would wager in this moment a lot of people would
Speaker 2: say he's one of.
Speaker 1: Their favorite actors. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah. This is another
Speaker 1: scene one of the few things I remembered with her
Speaker 1: and the boy and the piano. Oh, when he just
Speaker 1: straight up murders that guy. Yeah, that's how you do it,
Speaker 1: That's how you do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, but yeah, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: Like everyone is playing this movie very straight and serious, right,
Speaker 2: and he's occasionally hamming it up, right.
Speaker 1: Yes he is. I mean in a very very muted way, right,
Speaker 1: he's muted ham Yeah. Yeah. But also Kevin Spacey is
Speaker 1: kind of a hammy actor.
Speaker 2: I even remember when American Beauty came out and everybody
Speaker 2: was like falling all over him for that. I was like, yes,
Speaker 2: he's doing something interesting, but he also doesn't. He feels
Speaker 2: otherworldly a little bit. And the way that he's talking
Speaker 2: to people, you know.
Speaker 1: Like I hate my job.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, he's always been a little over
Speaker 2: the top. But I think at the time people were like, yeah, yeah, no, yeah,
Speaker 2: he's interesting.
Speaker 1: You know what's funny about American Beauty. I've only seen
Speaker 1: that movie one time. Really, I've only seen it the
Speaker 1: one time, and I remember enjoying it. Yeah, I liked it.
Speaker 1: I watched the opening night. I watched it at the
Speaker 1: Canterra with Sean and and it's just funny how in retrospect,
Speaker 1: I'm just like ew, like, like, well, just so much Ew.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of you in that movie. I mean,
Speaker 2: I know that's kind of the point. But also at
Speaker 2: the same time, you could argue that maybe the movie
Speaker 2: doesn't even recognize it by the end, like it presents
Speaker 2: a lot at you, but it doesn't reckon with it.
Speaker 2: It's just sort of like, oh, well, you know, everybody's
Speaker 2: just trying their best.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I already watched it a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1: Oh I'm curious. I mean, did it hold up for you?
Speaker 1: H I mean yes and no.
Speaker 2: I mean I think it would probably be easy to
Speaker 2: just say no. But there's a lot of you know,
Speaker 2: interesting filmmaking and performances and weird ideas. And that's kind
Speaker 2: of my take, is it presents a lot of weird stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I think it it's meant to be like, yeah,
Speaker 2: this isn't okay along the way, but by the end
Speaker 2: of it, it just kind of forgives everybody right, and
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's like, well, because I mean spoiler,
Speaker 2: you know, Kevin Spacey's character dies and it's like, well,
Speaker 2: isn't that just kind of sad? You know, he maybe
Speaker 2: he was just he was just trying his best, and
Speaker 2: this is just you know, minutes after he almost had
Speaker 2: sex with his underage girl, but he didn't.
Speaker 1: He didn't because he's a good guy. He's been fantasizing
Speaker 1: about her the whole movie and exactly the audience has
Speaker 1: made complicit in that, by the way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's it's messy, but I can't say it
Speaker 2: isn't interesting.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's Sam Mendez, right, it is Sam Menda's. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that was his first theatrical movie because he
Speaker 1: was a theater director and Alan Ball wrote the that's right, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that movie was a big moment.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when he came out, it's a big deal. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So Lex's plan is goddamn idiotic. Right.
Speaker 2: That was the other thing again that I remember where
Speaker 2: it was like, I'm going to create all this land
Speaker 2: for real estate, and then he he creates like this
Speaker 2: immediate apocalypse landscape.
Speaker 1: It makes like this is for anybody who who looked
Speaker 1: at Lexa's plan in the first film, I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, man sink into sinking California into the
Speaker 1: ocean so you have more beachfront. It's like, oh, hold
Speaker 1: my beer.
Speaker 2: Right right, he's gonna create a new continent that's going
Speaker 2: to overtake North America.
Speaker 1: Like you almost wish like because he's so like and
Speaker 1: this is what we're gonna do, and you just want
Speaker 1: los to be like that's idiotic. Yes, oh that would
Speaker 1: have been Yeah, you are a stupid person, you know, Like,
Speaker 1: actually I would have love that. That always makes more sense,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, see this this stuff he's doing here, it
Speaker 2: feels like he's like, but I'm in a superhero movie.
Speaker 1: Don't I get to do this a little bit? But
Speaker 1: it's it's so off kilter because it's just sprinkled in
Speaker 1: these odd places totally. He's like, you're not getting the
Speaker 1: big picture or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, and then you got poor Parker Posey over here.
Speaker 2: It was this brilliant, interesting, idiostocratic actress, and then she's
Speaker 2: just sitting there looking at mostly.
Speaker 1: For the rest of the movie, like, am I wrong?
Speaker 1: Cast her as lowest you're gonna get something interesting? Yeah? Definitely.
Speaker 1: So this here, you know, where he's got this little
Speaker 1: cylinder made of kryptonite and he like puts it towards
Speaker 1: the kid and the kid starts getting sick. I would
Speaker 1: have loved like four more minutes of him just going close,
Speaker 1: far close, far. I would That's really funny.
Speaker 2: I do like this, though, I Mean I'm just looking
Speaker 2: at his realization reactions and the kid.
Speaker 1: Am I wrong? Is the kid kind of underplaying it
Speaker 1: a little bit here. Now that's the kid's like that
Speaker 1: he's that he's getting sick with the kryptonite.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got what was happening. But it's not like
Speaker 2: he's slumping or any different than he was.
Speaker 1: Again, I think it would be hilarious if he's very
Speaker 1: obviously getting sick and then you move it away and
Speaker 1: he's obviously very happy and jovial. Yeah, yeah, very Just
Speaker 1: keep going back and forth like a Looney Tunes cartoon exactly.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, like a cartoon like oh oh
Speaker 2: oh oh oh yeah, just back and forth.
Speaker 1: That would been hilarious. Now, the thing about this, right,
Speaker 1: so that's the first inclination, Oh you know, who's that
Speaker 1: boy's father? How do you just drop in? Oh, by
Speaker 1: the way, uh, Superman didn't pull out in time, and
Speaker 1: and and then he left her, like like, how do
Speaker 1: you make Superman a deadbeat dad? I know, I know.
Speaker 1: Like my point is, none of this makes sense to
Speaker 1: me because because like I don't know, that's a big deal.
Speaker 1: If Superman knocked up Lois Lane, you have fundamentally altered
Speaker 1: the trajectory of these characters. Yeah, and I'm not saying
Speaker 1: there aren't stories to do that. There's one of my
Speaker 1: favorite Superman's ever is Superman and Lois, which is him
Speaker 1: as a parent to two teenagers. Sure, and it is
Speaker 1: fan freakantastic. I gotta watch that. I know you've at
Speaker 1: this moment. Honestly, I said, at this moment, Tyler Hecklin
Speaker 1: is second only to Christopher Reive for me. Wow, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's terrific. So I'm not saying there aren't stories to tell,
Speaker 1: but I'm saying that's such you have to get into that.
Speaker 1: You have to be like, how when did this happen?
Speaker 1: How did this? Say? You know? Yeah, it's also.
Speaker 2: Yeah muted and keep saying the melancholy keeps coming to
Speaker 2: my mind. Just the reaction actions to this, even at
Speaker 2: the end when he's watching the kids sleep, that's a
Speaker 2: big damn deal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, where do we go from here? What does
Speaker 1: this mean? He and Lois need to talk, you know,
Speaker 1: But it's just so oh that's my child, I guess,
Speaker 1: and then he flies away.
Speaker 2: It's just I don't know, so weird, right, Yeah, I
Speaker 2: agree with you. I mean, well, singer co wrote this,
Speaker 2: he directed it. It just feels like a fundamental I
Speaker 2: don't know, wrongheaded approach to all this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, especially as as we barreled towards the third
Speaker 1: act and again it's like we've still got an hour left, dude.
Speaker 2: I literally actually just tapped my iPad and I was like,
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, the pacing is interminable. I mean we're watching
Speaker 1: it right now. This is really slow pace, you know,
Speaker 1: execution of this moment.
Speaker 2: Now, I will say though, this this is one of
Speaker 2: the moments that I remembered, which is this creepy.
Speaker 1: This guy is creepy. Yeah right, I mean, forget the tattoo,
Speaker 1: which I looked up.
Speaker 2: I guess that's what John Wayne Gacy's clown makeup look like.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, good times.
Speaker 2: Yeah that's great. You know, the child killer, So that's
Speaker 2: tattooed on the back of his skull. But like, I
Speaker 2: like this moment actually on paper, this is kind of interesting, right,
Speaker 2: like this guard playing piano with the boy, but it's
Speaker 2: just like he's interminable. Like just the execution, the pacing
Speaker 2: of it is just so indulgent.
Speaker 1: It's it's indulgent, and that makes me believe that that
Speaker 1: a singer had final edit. Yeah, which is you know,
Speaker 1: I've said this before. Final cut is often held up
Speaker 1: as like a thing like, oh, you know this, these
Speaker 1: directors don't even get final cut, you know, And I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, those directors shouldn't have final cut. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna put that. I don't know if that's
Speaker 1: a it's a controversial opinion, but not every director has
Speaker 1: earned it or uses it. Well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but sometimes it's good to have someone pushing you.
Speaker 1: Well. You know, I've said before, you look at like
Speaker 1: Steven Spielberg obviously has final edit. But one thing you'll
Speaker 1: say about Steven Spielberg is he he cuts his movie
Speaker 1: such that it'll it'll play, it'll play to the wise audience.
Speaker 2: And he has a long time editor. Yeah that I'm
Speaker 2: sure they have a very close, honest, forthright relationship, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and this is edited by John Otman, by
Speaker 1: the way, who did the score.
Speaker 2: Isn't that fascinating? I remember that, yeah, as a fact
Speaker 2: from back in the day. The composer and the editor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. Well, it's like real quick.
Speaker 2: Ben burt Right, he edited the prequel Star Wars prequels
Speaker 2: and he's the sound designer.
Speaker 1: That's interest. I don't think I knew that. Yeah, he's
Speaker 1: in that. If you watch the.
Speaker 2: I forget what it's called, the saga begins, oh right, right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: you see Bert at an avid cutting.
Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, that's back when nonlinear was just starting. Yeah, yeah, crazy.
Speaker 1: So this is the other thing that really jumped out
Speaker 1: at me. There. There's there's a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of blue screen stuff, yeah, or green screen stuff, and
Speaker 1: that that distracts me more so than I would have expected.
Speaker 1: And I wonder it's if it's because of shooting on
Speaker 1: video and it's not up to snuff yet. You know.
Speaker 2: We also we haven't really commented on it, but there's
Speaker 2: a bit of that. I remember when the Matrix, the
Speaker 2: second one came out, there's a big deal made out
Speaker 2: of creating a full body digital stunt double. You know,
Speaker 2: so you had all the smiths that Neo's fighting, and
Speaker 2: some of the shots you can tell it looks like
Speaker 2: stunting in and it looks really great, and then some
Speaker 2: of it looks like this like PlayStation three graphic of
Speaker 2: a human being And yeah, I mean early days, and
Speaker 2: they've come a long way with that. Actually, there was
Speaker 2: something recently that I don't remember what it was, but
Speaker 2: they said like, oh, yeah, yeah, this guy when he
Speaker 2: falls here, that's a digital stunt double. And I was like, well,
Speaker 2: be damned, looks they did it. They cracked it, like
Speaker 2: I can't tell anymore. But in this one, there's it
Speaker 2: feels like a lot of digital body doubling for Superman
Speaker 2: when he's kind of unnecessarily unnecessarily yes, when he's in
Speaker 2: the air, it didn't feel necessary.
Speaker 1: It looks kind of rubbery and weird. Just put Brandon
Speaker 1: Rath on wires. What are you guys doing? You know? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So that Yeah, I mean I like this scene in concept.
Speaker 1: I like the whole.
Speaker 2: It's not just a hint, like the Hinchman's kind of
Speaker 2: inherently interesting because he's going to sit next to the
Speaker 2: kid at the piano and play a song, and that
Speaker 2: gives an opening for Lois to send out their coordinates, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, you have to squint to not think about
Speaker 2: the whole Internet connection noise that's happening that he doesn't
Speaker 2: hear ten feet away.
Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah. See, so this is this is this sequence.
Speaker 1: I think it makes me uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: He's gonna murder this kid's mother in front of him.
Speaker 1: Right, So so you get it. It has to make
Speaker 1: you uncomfortable because Jason has to be seeing something so
Speaker 1: scary that it would push him into this, you know,
Speaker 1: like his his power to activate. You get it. But again,
Speaker 1: this goes to what we were talking about earlier. It's
Speaker 1: like all these plot points that are all kind of
Speaker 1: not nurtured properly. If Superman has a son, that's your story. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know that's not the oh and like we don't
Speaker 1: address it at all. Yeah, what are his powers? You know,
Speaker 1: that's a good point. I remember Brian Singer gave some
Speaker 1: interview where he was like, you know, for the next one,
Speaker 1: you know, we're gonna we're gonna Wrath of Khan. And
Speaker 1: I guess that meant, you know, going darker, maybe putting
Speaker 1: the kid in danger or something. And I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't want to see that either. I know, I
Speaker 1: just want to see Superman saving people. Can we just
Speaker 1: do that? Can we just And here's the funny thing.
Speaker 1: I read that he had offered the role of General
Speaker 1: Zod to Jude Law. Yeah yeah, I saw that, and
Speaker 1: Jude Law either said nor it wasn't available, and so
Speaker 1: they got rid of the character. I'm like, can we
Speaker 1: please acknowledge that Superman has other villains than these two guys. Sure,
Speaker 1: that's a good point.
Speaker 2: And I got to say, as someone who hasn't really
Speaker 2: read the comics other than a handful you've given me, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean I do. I think it's affected me in
Speaker 2: that when you said that about Zod, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: that'd be great because that's what I know. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: Superman hasn't really been pushed villain wise in the movies.
Speaker 2: And so I you know, when the James Gun trailers
Speaker 2: were coming out and we're seeing it stacked with all
Speaker 2: these comic book looking people. I remember talking to friends
Speaker 2: that don't really read the comics watch the movies that
Speaker 2: were thinking like, I don't know, this looks weird. Sure,
Speaker 2: and I I remember wanting to ask you, then, well
Speaker 2: does it or.
Speaker 1: Is this what you know? It's more reflective of a
Speaker 1: comic book universe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, maybe it's good to finally push that.
Speaker 2: So we are expanding the sandbox for Superman on Scoen.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and what you realize is that was the
Speaker 1: great service that the Adam West Batman show did was
Speaker 1: put most of his villains into the public eye. And
Speaker 1: and sort of nestled them in the consciousness, right, so
Speaker 1: you know, above and beyond Joker, Penguin, Catwoman and Riddler.
Speaker 1: You know, you got you know, mister Freeze and Egghead
Speaker 1: and you know whoever else, right, Mad had had her
Speaker 1: right and then and then the animated show obviously was
Speaker 1: able to darken those characters. But Superman didn't really have
Speaker 1: that right because in the nineteen fifties show, they didn't
Speaker 1: even have Lex Luthor. In the nineteen fifties show, it
Speaker 1: was just guys and suits, m and gangsters and yeah,
Speaker 1: thieves throw. They would unload their clip on Superman and
Speaker 1: then throw their gun at him. Every every episode, just
Speaker 1: about this sequence. I like the way they bring in
Speaker 1: the John Williams music again. Every time that music comes in,
Speaker 1: your heart races a little bit. Yeah, now this I'm wondering, like,
Speaker 1: did he just fly through the top of the yeah elevator?
Speaker 1: I thought that too, I mean, in my I had
Speaker 1: to make it up in my head.
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, I guess he pushed open the
Speaker 2: escape hatch at the time, I was.
Speaker 1: Trying to nitpick, but no, Yeah, see the stuff with
Speaker 1: him flying all looks pretty good. I think. I think
Speaker 1: it still holds up same. So if your technology is
Speaker 1: such where you can make that look convincing, why swap
Speaker 1: in Uncanny Valley Superman? Mm hmm yeah yeah right at
Speaker 1: at key moments. And this this is also random. This
Speaker 1: might be just me being nitpicky, but I I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't like how overly quaffed the spit curl is.
Speaker 1: That's funny that that stood out to me too, but
Speaker 1: I didn't think about it till the last scene. I
Speaker 1: think it's like a big chunk. Yeah, that's really funny. No,
Speaker 1: but but when you when you look at Superman. Okay,
Speaker 1: so obviously there's Lex Luthor, Lex Luth there's the big one,
Speaker 1: and in general, thanks to thanks to the movies, I
Speaker 1: would say, really is big. But you know he's got
Speaker 1: uh well, I mentioned there's Matallo, there's Brainiac, there's a parasite,
Speaker 1: there's I mean, there's there's a lot, you know, a
Speaker 1: toy man. I'm just thinking of villains from from the
Speaker 1: nineties animated series Dark Side for goodness sake, you know,
Speaker 1: like there's an opportunity. Now his his rogues gallery is
Speaker 1: not as expansive or or as well known as Batman's,
Speaker 1: but like, let's let's try let's push the boundaries a
Speaker 1: little bit. H You know, I I think that one
Speaker 1: thing I liked about about Lois and Clark during its
Speaker 1: first season is that Lex Luther was in just about
Speaker 1: every episode, but he was the guy behind the scenes. Mmm. Sure,
Speaker 1: you know, he was the guy pulling the strings. But
Speaker 1: there was like some physical threat that Superman had to overcome,
Speaker 1: you know, right. That is kind of ironic, isn't it For.
Speaker 2: A series where the character can fly and has heat
Speaker 2: vision and you know, can freeze things with his breath
Speaker 2: that the movies have stayed relatively grounded otherwise, you know,
Speaker 2: like you don't see him fighting aliens very well, I
Speaker 2: mean z Od and everything, but they look humanoid.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I almost. I wonder if it goes to
Speaker 1: sort of like people are willing to suspend their disbelief
Speaker 1: only so far. Hmmm sure. So it's like you tell
Speaker 1: us that this guy is an alien, he's got these powers.
Speaker 1: We'll go with you there. But thing beyond that it
Speaker 1: becomes a little hard to hard to swallow, right, like
Speaker 1: people have a limit, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah this, Uh well, I was thinking, like, is Metropolis
Speaker 2: like just screwed, like all its underground infrastructure and subway systems,
Speaker 2: and after this whole shockwave that ripples through the city.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know this sequence, yeah, is I like
Speaker 1: the little bits that we see. I like the thing
Speaker 1: where he's Superman is flying and he turns upside down
Speaker 1: and he shoots the he like incinerates the glass, you know. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a cool thing. But this feel, this whole bit,
Speaker 1: it feels like a very uh this this bit right here.
Speaker 1: I like this. Yeah, I think that's cool. Cool of
Speaker 1: that heat vision it is. Yeah, it's cool. But I
Speaker 1: don't know, there's just something like this stuff doesn't really
Speaker 1: land for me the way the way the earthquake scene
Speaker 1: in the seventy eight movie does I get that? Why
Speaker 1: do you think that is? I don't know. You know,
Speaker 1: there's something about the pacing. There is a lot of
Speaker 1: music that's really highlighting the action.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is again.
Speaker 2: I do love the way this movie looks. Objectively. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think it's beautifully shot, even the stuff from.
Speaker 1: The Grant now. But yeah, it like I said, I
Speaker 1: think it's almost a little too in love with itself,
Speaker 1: in love with its look instead of doing what will
Speaker 1: bring us into the action. Into the story. It's just.
Speaker 2: Concerning itself with beautiful photography. Yeah, and it's maybe creating
Speaker 2: a little bit of a distance.
Speaker 1: So I just watched X two in the last two weeks, right,
Speaker 1: and so it's very fresh. And one thing I will
Speaker 1: say about that movie, I mean it moves, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: and and uh, the the emotional beats hit, but the
Speaker 1: action beats uh pull you in, you know, and and
Speaker 1: and it builds to a dramatic crescendo. I think it's
Speaker 1: a remarkably effective movie in this particular genre, you know.
Speaker 1: I think it's one of it's one of the better examples.
Speaker 1: And I think that's why there was such such excitement
Speaker 1: about Brian Singer. Well, if he can do for Superman
Speaker 1: what he did for the X Men, then then then
Speaker 1: move move aside, you know. Yeah, yeah, and so that
Speaker 1: you know, like like this this piece right here, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's weirdly devoid of drama as the Daily Planet
Speaker 1: globe is about to fall, but it's beautiful, it's beautifully shot.
Speaker 1: But this should be I don't I mean, we should
Speaker 1: be feeling.
Speaker 2: This more, you know, That's what I'm I don't know
Speaker 2: if I'm saying it well enough, But I think that's
Speaker 2: just it, like it's it's gorgeous. Yeah, and I think
Speaker 2: it's like focusing on his gorgeousness more than what it
Speaker 2: needs to make us actually feel or experience. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: because these are gorgeous shots. But yeah, I totally agree
Speaker 2: with you. I mean, that thing almost yeah, crushed everybody,
Speaker 2: but yeah, I'm more focused on how beautiful this shot is.
Speaker 1: Atlas right got the globe on his back.
Speaker 2: I did think what a terrible design that thing is
Speaker 2: on the top of that building, the globe you mad, Yeah,
Speaker 2: they did not think that's true.
Speaker 1: But I love it.
Speaker 2: It's pretty cool it coming off its hinges and crushing
Speaker 2: that water tower and then the water beginning to splash
Speaker 2: down on Perry like making that look up.
Speaker 1: It's all of that tracks and tracks, and I think
Speaker 1: in a design sense, I mean there's something that the
Speaker 1: the Art Deco approach to the inside of the daily
Speaker 1: Planet and the whole you know, the globe and stuff,
Speaker 1: that that all works, you know. I I think for me,
Speaker 1: I feel slightly at arm's length with this incarnation of Metropolis,
Speaker 1: whereas you know, the Richard Donner's approach right farisamilitude I
Speaker 1: think that that gave a liveliness to to Metropolis in
Speaker 1: in those original films.
Speaker 2: I agree, because yeah, it feels more like a painting
Speaker 2: than a lived in place.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And and and just to be clear, why am
Speaker 1: I hitting Richard Donner so hard, It's because Brian Singer
Speaker 1: has invited that comparison, right right, So I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: if you want to continue that, then you have to
Speaker 1: you have to pick up on his aesthetic approach, you know. Yep,
Speaker 1: totally like they shot this in Sydney, I think, and
Speaker 1: which was the style at the time, which was the time.
Speaker 1: But you know, with the matrix, it wor right because
Speaker 1: it's meant to be like slightly unreal, you know, right.
Speaker 1: And so there's something about saying this is an American city,
Speaker 1: but us being like, oh, that doesn't feel like an
Speaker 1: American city. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally, especially with
Speaker 1: the matrix because it's all Chicago streets and stuff, right right,
Speaker 1: right right. You know.
Speaker 2: I was reading about how this came out in IMAX,
Speaker 2: and there was four scenes that were converted into three D.
Speaker 1: And what was funny about that.
Speaker 2: I mean that was you know, that was just the beginning, right,
Speaker 2: and we would have this whole Avatar and then every
Speaker 2: movie was being converted into three D.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize. I thought this was kind of early
Speaker 1: for that thing. I didn't realize it was happening. I
Speaker 1: associate it with, you know, two thousand, late two thousands.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I was reading the way that they let
Speaker 2: you know to put on your three D glasses, because
Speaker 2: it wasn't the whole film was. There'd be an icon
Speaker 2: of Clark Kent's glasses flashing in green at the bottom
Speaker 2: of the screen, like, put on.
Speaker 1: Your glasses, folks.
Speaker 2: I just I just thought that was kind of an
Speaker 2: almost cute, charming little artifact.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a different time.
Speaker 2: A different time, different time. I don't remember that though.
Speaker 1: Did you just see this in three D? Do you
Speaker 1: remember that? I don't believe I saw this in three D? Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know what's funny is I remember before this came out,
Speaker 1: Warner Brothers Home Video had released this, just this cavalcade
Speaker 1: of Superman stuff on DVD. So like Loeis and Clark
Speaker 1: season whatever, you know, the George Reeves show season whatever,
Speaker 1: the super Boys show finally came out on DV, like
Speaker 1: all the Superman, the Amiate series, you name it. All
Speaker 1: this stuff came out on DVD, and I got all
Speaker 1: that shit, all of it, okay, and each of them
Speaker 1: came with a free ticket to see Superman Returned. So
Speaker 1: I'm like, all right, well, this is fantastic because I'm
Speaker 1: gonna be watching the shit out of this movie. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna be I'm gonna be going every night for a week. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then I watched it opening night, me and No'm
Speaker 1: gonna and it ended and I was like, well, okay
Speaker 1: then and all those tickets went to waste.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of like the funny thing you
Speaker 2: would do with the extras. I mean, you'd obviously throwing
Speaker 2: them over your shoulders, like the laziest one, like setting
Speaker 2: them ablaze in like a burning trash barrel or something,
Speaker 2: walking away with your leather jacket collar popped up.
Speaker 1: But that's the thing. I didn't even feel that level
Speaker 1: of disconnect from this movie, or you know, I didn't
Speaker 1: walk out of the theater so dissatisfied.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, you just saying that now it makes me wonder, Yeah,
Speaker 2: what did I mean? I said how we felt at
Speaker 2: the end of Crystal Skull. What was your feeling walking.
Speaker 1: Into the theater? I was like, I was basically like, okay, okay, interesting,
Speaker 1: you know, and and kind of like, okay, okay, I
Speaker 1: guess that's what we're doing now. And you know, I'd
Speaker 1: have to go back and read my review. My review
Speaker 1: at the time was was generally positive, and it was
Speaker 1: positive in the context of Okay, we've got like a
Speaker 1: foundation here, now let's build on it, right And and
Speaker 1: I remember very distinctly talking about the plane crash sequence
Speaker 1: and singling that out, and I said, like, I drew
Speaker 1: that nine eleven connection. I was like, in the fantasy
Speaker 1: of the world of the movies, we have Superman who's
Speaker 1: able to catch a falling plane, you know, before it crashes,
Speaker 1: and and it spoke to that moment, you know. But
Speaker 1: I remember being like, okay, kind of, let's see what
Speaker 1: they do in the next one. Sure, And so who knows,
Speaker 1: right had they made I mean, their intention was to
Speaker 1: make a sequel, and based on the box office they weren't.
Speaker 1: It wasn't unwarranted to think that there was an audience
Speaker 1: for it. I think what ended up kiboshing those plans
Speaker 1: was Brian Singer kept getting busy with shit to do,
Speaker 1: and then finally it just you know, the all the
Speaker 1: actors contracts Sunset it.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, maybe you imagine with the sort of
Speaker 2: middling response, Yeah, he lost some.
Speaker 1: Enthusiasts, lost the enthusiasm, I would imagine. I mean, he
Speaker 1: said later. I think this was after he made Jack
Speaker 1: the Giant Slayer. He's like, if I had to do
Speaker 1: it again, I I just reboot it. I wouldn't have
Speaker 1: cast Brandon Routh something like that. I'm like, bro, yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of a dick. Yeah. Yeah. I think he even
Speaker 1: said he would have cast Nicholas Holt and in the
Speaker 1: lead role, as I recall, which is ironic because now
Speaker 1: here he is, Yeah, an a lead role. If not
Speaker 1: the league we've been pretty young then, yeah, right, I
Speaker 1: mean when was that like twenty ten or something. M Yeah,
Speaker 1: Actually I don't know how old he is Nicholas Holt.
Speaker 1: I mean he's got to be in his thirties now, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But yeah, this worldwide, it made just under four hundred million. Yeah,
Speaker 2: got two hundred million in the US. So yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: I think it was at the ninth highest grossing movie
Speaker 2: of two thousand and six, So it's in there, but
Speaker 2: certainly not what they would expect.
Speaker 1: Well, my recollection is that I think a week later,
Speaker 1: priors to the Caribbean two came out and just clabbered it.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, And in fact, I remember, now that I
Speaker 1: think about it, I remember I visited Chicago the week
Speaker 1: so I watched this, and then that next week, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm and I went to Chicago and we were at Oberweiss,
Speaker 1: the dairy, you know, and this was across the street
Speaker 1: from this. This is on Army Trail, so like, you know,
Speaker 1: near near Strafford Square, and we're sitting there eating ice cream,
Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of kids, like teenagers come in
Speaker 1: all dressed like Pirates and they just got out of
Speaker 1: the Pirates of the Caribbean screening. Yeah, and I was like,
Speaker 1: oh shit, Like that was the first time I realized like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is a thing like Pirates. Yeah, that was a moment.
Speaker 1: Those movies were huge. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: See now this feels like I just checked. There's about
Speaker 2: with credits forty minutes left. Yep, this should be twenty
Speaker 2: minutes left. Absolutely, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is like your third act here. Now logistically,
Speaker 1: here's the problem. So this is Lex Luthor's big land
Speaker 1: mask that he's going to have people fighting to live on? Yes,
Speaker 1: is Lex luthoran an idiot? See?
Speaker 2: That was my That's my memory when I think of
Speaker 2: this movie is he had this plan to create new Land,
Speaker 2: but it looked like a hellscape. Yeah, and I remember
Speaker 2: that feeling ridiculous. So I was kind of eager in
Speaker 2: rewatching this to see if there was some sort of
Speaker 2: explanation or you know, that was dealt with. But there
Speaker 2: isn't Like you could even imagine him being like no, no, no,
Speaker 2: what is this? You know, like he had he realizes
Speaker 2: he had a plan, but he didn't think it through
Speaker 2: entirely and it's not going to work.
Speaker 1: You could do that right now.
Speaker 2: He still seems so confident in this moment. Why not
Speaker 2: have him be furious that it's not working the way
Speaker 2: he thought it would. And then he stabbed Superman with
Speaker 2: the Kryptonite, and you know, like, why is he still
Speaker 2: so okay with what he's created?
Speaker 1: Or even like, don't even have that be the plan?
Speaker 1: Just have this be his thing to this is his
Speaker 1: final revenge against Superman, like luring him to this land
Speaker 1: mass that's poisonous to him. Yeah, sure, we like why
Speaker 1: have I mean, he's made multiple powerpoints or whatever with
Speaker 1: his island growing or what. Right. I'm like, like, he
Speaker 1: obviously has bought into that, and I'm like, but that's stupid. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so just have this b year trap for Superman. Sure,
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, that's funny too.
Speaker 2: By the way that you bring up the power points,
Speaker 2: because they aren't power points, there are these like actual
Speaker 2: printed masks's true lower effort.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very funny in old school.
Speaker 2: And then he had the several made of the progression
Speaker 2: of the growth of the land.
Speaker 1: He hits the button, yeah exactly, and then it looked
Speaker 1: like this. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well he had to have a conversation with the artist
Speaker 2: and be like, maybe this one is like this much growth, okay,
Speaker 2: And then I'm thinking, yeah, maybe five seven seven's too many.
Speaker 1: It's like George Lucas talking to the concept artists, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. See now this here, I think, I think
Speaker 1: this notion of Lexu, they're just beating the living shit
Speaker 1: out of Superman. That's that's effective, you know, And and
Speaker 1: you know, I mean it's kind of heartrending when he
Speaker 1: stabs him with that Kryptonite shard and stuff. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: it feels I don't know, you tell me it feels
Speaker 1: so incongruous with the Lex that we have seen before,
Speaker 1: and I just mean the gene Hackman Lex. Sure, sure,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean like it it. I don't
Speaker 1: see how we get from that Lex to this one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the brutality, the yeah, yeah, unless it's something see okay,
Speaker 1: a couple of things. Yeah, Lex Luthor was in jail
Speaker 1: and then Superman didn't show up to the Pearl hearing,
Speaker 1: so they let him go. Yeah, okay, clearly the system
Speaker 1: is broken. Yeah, like you need Superman to testify and
Speaker 1: not you know everything Lex did right, right evidence? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah right, So that's weird, right, And.
Speaker 2: Shouldn't Superman be aware of that before he leaves? I
Speaker 2: don't think his planet, if there's remnants, it's not going anywhere.
Speaker 1: Stupid, right, So anyway, my point is, what if between
Speaker 1: the time Superman left and now, like Lex Luthor has
Speaker 1: been through something that's made him far worse, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like something has happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like a de Niro and Cape Fear. We
Speaker 2: see him doing pull ups and he's got like tattoos
Speaker 2: on his back.
Speaker 1: Now I mean something. I mean you're joking, but kind
Speaker 1: of you know, yeah, no, yeah, that's the funny version.
Speaker 1: But yeah, right, something like that, something that's made him
Speaker 1: this way.
Speaker 2: M h yeah, yeah, yeah, A switches flipped.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe maybe how about this, like a in
Speaker 1: a weird way, he he needed Superman when he was gone,
Speaker 1: and because of Superman not being there, he lost something
Speaker 1: or someone mm hmmm mmmmm. So it's this weird like
Speaker 1: dichotomy where he hates Superman. He should be glad he's gone,
Speaker 1: but when he is gone, he needed him, and now
Speaker 1: he blames him for being gone even though he should
Speaker 1: be happy. Does that make sense? I love that, right,
Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah. But that's that's the funny thing.
Speaker 2: Is this movie, for as long as it is, it's
Speaker 2: almost like deceptively simple.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's well, what did you say, right,
Speaker 1: it's under two hours of story? Yeah, I think that's
Speaker 1: about right. And it's over two and a half hours. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well it's because it's there's like twenty minutes of the
Speaker 1: hospital stuff and all, you know, like yeah, yeah, see
Speaker 1: this here, like like when he gets stabbed and he's
Speaker 1: having trouble breathing and stuff. I mean, it's it's very
Speaker 1: heart wrenching, right, But I I think that I need
Speaker 1: we needed more build up to that we needed it
Speaker 1: needs to hit more.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yeah, you mean like in this moment,
Speaker 2: specifically the execution.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I don't I don't know that. Let me
Speaker 1: put this. I think it's effective to see Superman like
Speaker 1: take a pounding, you know, like to I think that's
Speaker 1: a good thing. We should see that he has weaknesses.
Speaker 1: But I we don't have the history with this Superman
Speaker 1: and this Lex to make this moment hit. And again
Speaker 1: it's what I'm saying, like it's it wants us to
Speaker 1: to sort of imprint all of that prior history. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but what I said before, I don't believe that the
Speaker 1: gene Hackman Lex would do this. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that just feels like a problem covering
Speaker 2: the entire film, right, I mean, going back to this
Speaker 2: his what we're supposed to be bringing ourselves the history
Speaker 2: of Lewis and Clark here, which I'm just not feeling
Speaker 2: or able to fill in.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, speaking of Richard being a hero here, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, like, god damn hero, Yeah, he
Speaker 1: really is. And and I I mean James Marsden is
Speaker 1: just talk about one of the most dependable actors. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: You plug this guy in, he's going to give you
Speaker 1: something good. Yeah, and he and he's good in this
Speaker 1: for a.
Speaker 2: Long time, I mean even recently as that showed Jury Duty. Yes, exactly,
Speaker 2: fun watching him let loose a little bit on that,
Speaker 2: do do something different or or like the Sonic movies, right, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm like the guy, but the man knows the assignment,
Speaker 2: you know, Anchorman two am, Jack Lamee.
Speaker 1: Yeah, everything what's happening here is.
Speaker 4: Somewhat effective, but it's just it's just so slow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, just luxuriates to Ah. Well, well you
Speaker 1: said languid. I think that's really appropriate. I mean this
Speaker 1: should be high stakes, right, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's if if it's the the editing
Speaker 1: where something's getting lost or or yeah. Well, and again
Speaker 1: the visuals are so muddy that it it despite it
Speaker 1: being shot well and to your point, beautiful shot compositions,
Speaker 1: but not necessarily pleasant to look at always.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that you know, it could be that he
Speaker 2: literally shot a series of concept art or storyboards or whatever.
Speaker 2: But sometimes you have to let go of the thing
Speaker 2: you have in your head for the sake of flow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, yeah, this is great. I mean I
Speaker 1: like this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's almost ironic too. And here Superman can't fly,
Speaker 2: but Richard can. There you go, little boy. You know,
Speaker 2: it's funny when he goes goes down the water fall
Speaker 2: and there's that shot where you see the craggy rocks
Speaker 2: and it disappears behind and of course you know you
Speaker 2: gotta wait like two to three beats and then it'll
Speaker 2: come closer to the camera.
Speaker 1: It made me think, who invented that shot? That gets
Speaker 1: used a lot. That's funny.
Speaker 2: Wow, you know you you I don't know if Hitchcock
Speaker 2: came up with that whole dolly zoom thing, but we
Speaker 2: attribute it to him.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. So I was like, yeah, who came up
Speaker 1: with that? That's a that's a really uh effective beat.
Speaker 1: I mean, we see coming now. Unfortunately, well, if I may,
Speaker 1: you can you can expect to see something in that
Speaker 1: lineage when you watch the New Superman. The dolly zoom, no, no,
Speaker 1: the drop. Oh really yep? Oh funny. Okay, that's not
Speaker 1: a spoiler, but sure, that's so funny.
Speaker 2: I would love it to be from like Porky's or
Speaker 2: something like Terrible Movie. So everyone is like, oh, we
Speaker 2: don't know where that came from. You know, it's you know,
Speaker 2: we don't need to give it a name.
Speaker 1: It started it was in Birth of a Nation, right exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: That's quite a long shard. I was like, ouch, yeah,
Speaker 1: well and and he he broke it off, right, see.
Speaker 1: So now we we get this Superman recovering and and
Speaker 1: then you know, the big climactic moment is is Superman
Speaker 1: lifting the island into space, which you think at the
Speaker 1: script stage they would have been like, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: that's not that's not really the crowd pleaser.
Speaker 2: That that we that we want to go for, you know,
Speaker 2: right right right, you want to shut something down with
Speaker 2: a ticking clock or you want to like, yeah, it's
Speaker 2: something like think about.
Speaker 1: The climax of Batman begins. Yeah, oh yeah, right, it's
Speaker 1: the train going into the center of the town or
Speaker 1: Wayne Tower, and right, I mean there's a clear sense
Speaker 1: of progression of what we have to do and what's
Speaker 1: what's stopping our hero from doing it? Right, and it
Speaker 1: all works and then by this moment it must be
Speaker 1: done by this moment, yeah, you know, and and there's
Speaker 1: none of that here because the notion of this this
Speaker 1: the Kryptonian island is so abstract, and it seems like
Speaker 1: Superman has already seen that right there, the CGI double
Speaker 1: you're telling me you couldn't have just put him on
Speaker 1: wires and just I mean client, you know, yeah, I
Speaker 1: do like I like them reinforcing this is this is
Speaker 1: something very similar in Batman versus Superman, where he gets
Speaker 1: recharged by the sun. I do like that. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: that sense that the island is going to destroy Metropolis,
Speaker 1: you know, like what the movie has done is oh
Speaker 1: well he had Superman zipped through the city, he stopped
Speaker 1: the globe, and now Metropolis is safe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Now,
Speaker 1: always take care of this island.
Speaker 2: This thing should be continuing to grow exactly. Seems like
Speaker 2: it's kind of stopped, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2: This should be coming closer and closer, and a tidal
Speaker 2: wave is coming and boats are lifting out of the water,
Speaker 2: and if this ant gets any bigger, it's gonna, yeah,
Speaker 2: squash the city.
Speaker 1: So he's got to get rid.
Speaker 2: Of it before it can. Yeah, can get any bigger?
Speaker 4: Do that?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah? Yeah, Yeah, it's good. It's good. It's good.
Speaker 1: Now now X has these I guess the floppy discs basically, right,
Speaker 1: these crystals, Yeah, but he doesn't what's he supposed to
Speaker 1: do with those? Yeah, he doesn't have the player, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the drive to put them in. Well, I mean, but
Speaker 1: is that what he was he was am I wrong?
Speaker 2: He was shaving shavings of that mixed with the kryptonite
Speaker 2: is what was creating these.
Speaker 1: So he's just gonna make more islands, that's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that I didn't realize that. Well, I guess
Speaker 2: that goes back to the multiple maps. I guess this
Speaker 2: is map one we're looking at, and so he's just
Speaker 2: gonna it makes no sense.
Speaker 1: Why are we.
Speaker 2: It's not like he makes a new mass and they'll
Speaker 2: connect in some sort of what was the next step?
Speaker 1: Hold on? Let me see? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, who oh, these are out of order here? Hold on, man, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's funny. I know, Well, the tones
Speaker 2: are very different in the first one. But the Parker
Speaker 2: Posy character, like she just seems so I feel like
Speaker 2: sad every time I see her. And then even this
Speaker 2: moment here where she throws the crystals out of the helicopter. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then she just she almost sounds like an abused
Speaker 2: partner where she's just like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I was like, this is unpleasant. So she is essentially
Speaker 1: the miss Testmacher character.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I wish she had like maybe a
Speaker 2: little more spunk to her, like she's doing something heroic here,
Speaker 2: she's doing something bold, she's finally going against this guy.
Speaker 2: And it just the way that it's executed to me
Speaker 2: just feels so, I don't know, not fun.
Speaker 1: You know, it is fascinating to me. How how some
Speaker 1: of these beats just replay right, Like again, it's she's
Speaker 1: it's just like Valerie Parene in the first one, and
Speaker 1: then you know, there's there's the Lex Luthor has a
Speaker 1: love interest in the Newer in the new film, and
Speaker 1: and it's just it's weird how you have these echoes,
Speaker 1: you know, And I'm like, wow, maybe it's just like
Speaker 1: that's that's how these stories are, you know. Sure, you know,
Speaker 1: like i'd.
Speaker 2: Almost want to see her owning her moment here, Yeah
Speaker 2: I did it sort of like billions of people are
Speaker 2: gonna die, yeah, you bastard, Like no, like yeah, but
Speaker 2: it just like I said, it's almost played like too realistic.
Speaker 1: Herd tears and apologizing to him, and well but that
Speaker 1: that that gets to what I think is just a
Speaker 1: tonal misunderstanding. Yeah, because what what the seventy eight movie
Speaker 1: gets is that, you know, even as it treats the
Speaker 1: subject matter seriously, there there's a little bit of archness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know it sort of just reminding you, well,
Speaker 1: we're having fun here still, you know, yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: And where Lex Luthor's launching the two missiles is in
Speaker 1: the seventy eight movie, and Superman's like, you don't even
Speaker 1: know where the second missile's going. He's like, I know
Speaker 1: exactly where it's going, Hackensack, New Jersey. And and that's
Speaker 1: where Miss Testmaker's like, thanks, my mother lives in hacken Sack,
Speaker 1: and he just kind of looks at his watch and
Speaker 1: he's like no, you know, and it's horrible, but it's funny,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And and that's what
Speaker 1: this movie misses is kind of finding finding the levity
Speaker 1: in this stuff, you know.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, But you know, hasn't that been a
Speaker 2: common problem with Superman, Like it seems like they're afraid
Speaker 2: to let it be joyful or lest it feel.
Speaker 1: Corny or have the humor or something. Yeah. Absolutely, But
Speaker 1: then we have, you know, exhibit A right here happens
Speaker 1: when you don't do that. Yeah, well, especially here right
Speaker 1: where where we've already established that the island is laced
Speaker 1: with kryptonite, and so Superman lifts into space. And I
Speaker 1: can track with that the idea that like that's just
Speaker 1: he's fighting through he's doing you know, like this is
Speaker 1: killing him, but he's going to do it. But again,
Speaker 1: I feel like it would mean more if if the
Speaker 1: stakes were a little more clearly delineated. Yeah, like even
Speaker 1: this here, it's like people are just in Metropolis kind
Speaker 1: of watching at a distance.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean, he's preventing an
Speaker 2: active threat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he isn't. I'm like if he were, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's that's righting. Yeah. Yeah, and so it's it's
Speaker 1: Superman versus an island.
Speaker 2: As everyone just kind of watches, yeah, idly from the
Speaker 2: side sidelines.
Speaker 1: Although this looks pretty cool, I gotta say I agree. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right. I mean I like all of this.
Speaker 2: If if seeing him sweat and pushing this thing into space,
Speaker 2: it's all great. Just to your point, if they had
Speaker 2: added attention around it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, something something that you can is tangible, you know
Speaker 1: and and this sense of like this will kill me,
Speaker 1: but this is what I have to do. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: and this is why the world needs Superman. Hey, look
Speaker 1: at that. It's almost like it's a what do you
Speaker 1: call it? Christ parallel? Yeah, that's the other thing I've
Speaker 1: I need Superman to I need I need Superman stories
Speaker 1: to stop hitting us in the in the head with that,
Speaker 1: like we get it. If we got I appreciate it,
Speaker 1: and and it's important, but you know a little less. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like that came in with seventy eight, like
Speaker 1: that really really driving home the Christ metaphor. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't remember, Like how is it alluded to in that movie? Well,
Speaker 1: what I'm thinking of is is you have jorel like
Speaker 1: when he sees the jorel Ai right and he says,
Speaker 1: you know, they can be a good people. They wish it.
Speaker 1: They lack only the light to show the way, and
Speaker 1: that is why I've sent them you my only son.
Speaker 1: Ah gotcha pretty on the nose, right, And I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm fine with that. But you know, when we do
Speaker 1: like the Crucifixion pose every other version, it feels cheap somehow,
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's me, or it's like that's an interesting thing.
Speaker 2: Someone clocked yes, and so they did it.
Speaker 1: Great. Yeah, but it doesn't need to become part of
Speaker 1: the checklist for everything for every version. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something effective about seeing Superman on a gurney
Speaker 2: in a hospital. Yeah, and of like makes you oh, no,
Speaker 2: like seeing someone so powerful be vulnerable.
Speaker 1: Well, what I like about this? To me? It kind
Speaker 1: of evokes a little bit like like Spider Man. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Spider Man two when he's on the train yep, right,
Speaker 1: Like everybody comes together, yes, exactly, and we're gonna help
Speaker 1: him because he helps us. Our hero needs help. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I do like that, me too, Me too. I
Speaker 1: always like that. I do love that.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to jab the needle in his arm if
Speaker 2: he bends.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But then I did think about the defibrillator, and I
Speaker 2: was like, I mean, why would it blow up?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, he's like maybe he's like kind of made
Speaker 2: a steel, but it's not like he's electrified, is he.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question, right, What I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't I don't know how forblious work, I'm the one
Speaker 1: guy to ask. I don't either.
Speaker 2: Now, this is an effective smash cut, I think, right,
Speaker 2: but it feels like a Simpsons thing. I will, I
Speaker 2: will admit I didn't remember the ending of this movie.
Speaker 2: So then the hard cut to the Superman is dead headlines.
Speaker 2: But then yeah, this slow move the camera revealed that
Speaker 2: there's two headlines.
Speaker 1: Right Millhouse. I'm so sorry he can't hear you anymore.
Speaker 1: That's causing his ears. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Or it's like the when Bart goes to Millhouse's place,
Speaker 2: the one you call Millhouse is gone, and he's like
Speaker 2: what He's like, yes, to his grandmother's house.
Speaker 1: We're fumilating the place, you know. See, So the movie
Speaker 1: has gone out of his way to establish that Richard
Speaker 1: is a good dude. Yeah right, And so here in
Speaker 1: lies the dilemma because obviously it's Superman and Lois. We
Speaker 1: want Superman and Low stand up together, but we don't
Speaker 1: want like Richard to get shafted in this And so
Speaker 1: where do where do things go next? Are they just
Speaker 1: like co parenting?
Speaker 2: Well, according to the kid's picture, that's right, and we
Speaker 2: can see who was in the lead.
Speaker 1: It's so like like that. Let's say we do a sequel.
Speaker 1: Does that entail Richard dying? You know? Like hmmmm, and
Speaker 1: what we want him to die so we can feel better,
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. None of that is good, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2: You know, well I thought it was interesting too when
Speaker 2: she says we're going to the hospital to parry there
Speaker 2: and he gives this knowing smile.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But then it's like, wasn't this kid you're relative, you.
Speaker 2: Know, James Marsen, Like, so you're actively rooting against him
Speaker 2: and loves getting back with Superman, even even your own families.
Speaker 1: Against you, is it? Doesn't he also play a similar
Speaker 1: role in the Notebook, isn't he in the Notebook? Yep?
Speaker 1: Yeah no? And in uh Enchanted? Oh yeah, yeah that's right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: James Marston always the bridesmaid exactly. Yeah, yeah, I forgot
Speaker 1: about him in Jury Duty. That was so funny. That
Speaker 1: was a really just brilliant, pleasant surprise that serious. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if people haven't seen that kind of a twist
Speaker 2: on a reality show about these people on jury duty,
Speaker 2: that's right, very very entertaining, very sweet.
Speaker 1: See. I love all this all the people who are
Speaker 1: outside too. That all tracks with me. But again, I
Speaker 1: I think we needed more, We needed we needed something
Speaker 1: that that can what Superman just did to the people
Speaker 1: in terms of being directly impacted by what he did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because they could have been swayed by Lois's article, like
Speaker 1: you know, we did we really need We lived fine
Speaker 1: without him for five years, and then when this enormous
Speaker 1: catastrophe presents itself and there's nothing they could do to
Speaker 1: save themselves from that on land in Metropolis, you do
Speaker 1: need Superman. Yeah, oh, it's right there. That's the thing, right,
Speaker 1: But when he first shows up, well, think about it,
Speaker 1: when he first shows back up, everybody's cheering except Lois, right,
Speaker 1: and I think that's a mistake. I think people should
Speaker 1: be a lot more circumspect, and he's trying to win
Speaker 1: them back, and this is the thing he does to
Speaker 1: win them back. You're so right. Yep, you know what
Speaker 1: you mentioned his costume and the boots. Yeah, this shot
Speaker 1: made me think, like, damn, there's some clunky boots. They
Speaker 1: really they're big and bulky and they got big SSA's
Speaker 1: on them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it made me think it wouldn't be an
Speaker 2: easy thing. You know, we always get the which I love,
Speaker 2: but the sort of cheat shot of him running down
Speaker 2: an alley and then ripping open his buttoned up shirt
Speaker 2: and we're like got it, and he's changing into the thing.
Speaker 1: But when you really think about it, like, man, when
Speaker 1: does he put on those boots? Yeah, that's that's a
Speaker 1: lengthy process. Yeah. See, I just I'm I feel nothing
Speaker 1: between Lois and him, I know, And and that's a
Speaker 1: failing of this movie script where it's done nothing to
Speaker 1: make us, you know, feel that they have a prior connection.
Speaker 2: It would be nice if we had seen her wrestle
Speaker 2: a little bit more internally throughout the whole movie. She's
Speaker 2: kind of at a distance or dismissive of him, but
Speaker 2: it would be nice to see her She has something
Speaker 2: she wants to say, but will she allow herself to
Speaker 2: do it? And this is the moment now right where
Speaker 2: she may lose him, where she finally says the thing
Speaker 2: she's been holding back, right exactly, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think even even if it's something like she's
Speaker 1: putting on a front towards him, like no, I like
Speaker 1: we're done, yeah, exactly right, but we're we're seeing, you know,
Speaker 1: in an unguarded moment, that she's she's still pining for
Speaker 1: him or whatever. M h. I think that. Look, the
Speaker 1: problem ultimately it comes down to the fact that the
Speaker 1: that the filmmakers created kind of an unsolvable dilemma in
Speaker 1: terms of this this love triangle. Yeah, and it's like,
Speaker 1: you guys didn't have to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could have just not you know. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes I wonder about this. When you have
Speaker 2: someone like Superman, you know, you have Warner Brothers, you
Speaker 2: own Superman, every filmmaker wants to make that movie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for better or for worse.
Speaker 2: It seems like sometimes they're gonna pick whoever has the
Speaker 2: most unique. Take sure, and so what if Superman left
Speaker 2: for five years and he has a kid like that
Speaker 2: sounds like, oh, well, I don't know what does that
Speaker 2: look like? Yeah, I can see why that rose to
Speaker 2: the top just because it sounds different than just we're
Speaker 2: gonna make a rip Roorn Superman movie. Right, But then
Speaker 2: this maybe makes the case that that isn't always the
Speaker 2: best option just because it sounds the most unique and
Speaker 2: interesting and different from what you've done before.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and I don't doubt that singer goes in
Speaker 1: with his pitch and they bought the pitch without the script.
Speaker 1: Oh totally. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well I read that the principal actors signed on without
Speaker 2: a script, just like I want to be in Superman
Speaker 2: though yep.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but directed by Brian Singer of course. Yeah at
Speaker 1: that moment of course, mm hm right. And and there
Speaker 1: was no reason to think that it wouldn't have have performed.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, like why wouldn't it. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's if you watch the behind the scenes stuff, it's
Speaker 1: it's very sweet where if Brandon rout, like he's leaving
Speaker 1: to go film the movie and his family's all saying goodbye,
Speaker 1: and you're like, man, this guy and he's about to
Speaker 1: just ride that Express train to start him. And to
Speaker 1: be fair, i mean, the guy's continued working, right, so
Speaker 1: it's not like his career just just tapped out after
Speaker 1: this movie. But it is kind of sad because like
Speaker 1: he is sort of the George Lazenby of Superman's you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, Like that's what I'm saying. I'm glad
Speaker 1: he got a chance to come back and and and
Speaker 1: put some measure of closure on it. Totally. Yeah, that's nice.
Speaker 1: Like I said, if you get the chance, go to
Speaker 1: YouTube just watch his his bits from crisisign Infinite Earths.
Speaker 2: Oh, this is the little flirty glance the nurse gives
Speaker 2: the security guard yeah, which makes you think like, oh,
Speaker 2: do they have like a little thing let's go.
Speaker 1: That's kind of nice. That's the stuff you want to
Speaker 1: be thinking about while you're watching a Superman.
Speaker 2: But I mean, you know, she's probably you know, she
Speaker 2: doesn't have any lines, you know, But so it's like,
Speaker 2: how do you go in and make some sort of
Speaker 2: impact with your one little moment? And yeah, I feel like, oh,
Speaker 2: I don't know if she did it or the director,
Speaker 2: but gave them a little business.
Speaker 1: That's hilarious. See like this right here is a great shot.
Speaker 1: Right uh huh. Now I'm gonna say, maybe you didn't
Speaker 1: need the slow zoom in from behind. Yeah, Like I mean,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like this is a very
Speaker 1: long movie.
Speaker 2: I know it would be kind of an interesting if
Speaker 2: you had an advanced editing class at a college to
Speaker 2: give them.
Speaker 1: This movie and be like, what would you do? Like
Speaker 1: snap it up a little bit? You know. I remember
Speaker 1: reading an interview with Tarantino where he's like, Superman Turns
Speaker 1: is great man, Like people don't get it. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: I think he wrote like a twenty page essay about it,
Speaker 1: did he really? Yeah? I haven't read that, but I
Speaker 1: don't believe him.
Speaker 2: He's funny like that, though he seems to like enjoy
Speaker 2: having contrarian takes on things just.
Speaker 1: For the sake of it. Yeah, but this gets okay,
Speaker 1: let's talk about this real quick, so please, So I
Speaker 1: don't I don't feel anything here, I know, and I'm
Speaker 1: supposed to feel everything. I know, Right, Superman looking at
Speaker 1: his son, Yeah, asleep.
Speaker 2: Well he's in he's literally invaded a house. They don't
Speaker 2: know he's in there, and he's watching his son. And
Speaker 2: this is the son he's missed out on for five years,
Speaker 2: I mean, unknowingly abandoned.
Speaker 1: And yeah, well you know what I thought of a
Speaker 1: part of the reason there are no real moments between
Speaker 1: Superman and Jays and before this, like just them together. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, somewhere Superman rescues Jason and they talk and
Speaker 1: they laugh together something you know, Yeah, or he recognizes
Speaker 1: something in him exactly. Yeah, right, because because it's a
Speaker 1: very arbitrary way in which Superman ends up here where
Speaker 1: he's like, okay, this is my son. Mm hmm. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't get it. Yeah, it's very stoic. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Also right, like wouldn't you like to see a little
Speaker 2: bit of regret on his face and then a little tenderness,
Speaker 2: and like, I want to see a whole range of
Speaker 2: emotions in this moment, but it's just very Again, I
Speaker 2: just feel like I'm looking at a beautiful painting and
Speaker 2: someone speaking very you.
Speaker 1: Know, I don't know. Yeah, well, I again, at the
Speaker 1: time this movie came out, this was a remarkable paradigm
Speaker 1: ship because okay, well, now Superman has a kid, and
Speaker 1: now you know you have to deal with that. It
Speaker 1: is somewhat ironic that you know, in the comic books
Speaker 1: since then, you know, they Superman does have a son,
Speaker 1: and you know that's just in the mix. Now Batman
Speaker 1: has a son now too, right, Robin, the current Robin
Speaker 1: is Batman's son, and that's fat. I don't read the
Speaker 1: comics currently, but that that itself is so fascinating because
Speaker 1: that's such a that's such a permanent status shift, right,
Speaker 1: Like you can't undo.
Speaker 2: That well, and usually that's what a television show does
Speaker 2: when they've run out of stories.
Speaker 1: Kids.
Speaker 2: So maybe yeah, well I'm not saying that that's the
Speaker 2: case for their for them, but it's like you are
Speaker 2: almost painting yourself into a corner because you see no
Speaker 2: other options, you know, at least in terms of TV series.
Speaker 2: So it's weird that this is how they would kick
Speaker 2: off this new series of Superman movies.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, no, absolutely, yeah. See, so setting up this
Speaker 1: idea of like, okay, now they's somewhat like amicable between
Speaker 1: each other. But again, let's let's postulate that we move
Speaker 1: forward with the sequel. There's there's nowhere to go with
Speaker 1: the Superman Lowest relationship unless James Marsden, you know, takes
Speaker 1: a long walk off a short peer. You like that,
Speaker 1: I know, I know you like that. I do for
Speaker 1: folks listening, not James Marsden doing the turn of phrase.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, what's the kids supposed to be feeling? I mean,
Speaker 2: it's all he knows. Richard is his dad and ye.
Speaker 2: But now obviously he's going to want if he senses
Speaker 2: some sort of connection between him and Superman, he's going
Speaker 2: to want to explore that exactly.
Speaker 1: Sad or not sad.
Speaker 2: I mean, that happens in life, but it's just overly complicated,
Speaker 2: emotionally complicated.
Speaker 1: For what I want out of my Superman this right here,
Speaker 1: that's cgi Brandon Routh. Yeah, you're telling me you couldn't
Speaker 1: just film him. I know there's no point anyway.
Speaker 2: Sorry, you were saying, no, no, no, that's all just
Speaker 2: overly emotionally complicated, when that's not what I'm showing up
Speaker 2: for two hours for with my Superman film.
Speaker 1: Right, And so we go through that whole, that whole
Speaker 1: emotional rigmarole, and then we end with this restatement of
Speaker 1: the John Williams music to be like, yeah, but it's
Speaker 1: like that thing you love. Yeah, yeah, and it just
Speaker 1: feels dishonest to me, yeah, because it's not.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: It's it's again this like it's cause playing as that
Speaker 1: thing that I.
Speaker 2: Love, and it's interesting or notable at least that he
Speaker 2: does look at the camera.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he doesn't smile. Yeah. Right. Wow, So Superman returns. Wow.
Speaker 2: I didn't imagine it's being a two and a half hour.
Speaker 1: Dog pile, but I wouldn't call it dog pile. But
Speaker 1: airing grievances, airing of grievances absolutely, Yeah. So where are
Speaker 1: you at this? This is now your third time watching
Speaker 1: it in nineteen.
Speaker 2: Years, yeah, and two of those have been in twelve hours.
Speaker 2: So I will say I'm sorry for people who listened
Speaker 2: and loved this one and we're hoping to hear just more.
Speaker 2: I'm sure people are aware that there's a mixed feelings
Speaker 2: about this, but yeah, we definitely leaned into well, there's
Speaker 2: a dedication to the just forh Reeve Danery, Yeah, both
Speaker 2: of them. I'm you know, it's it's it's a mixed bag.
Speaker 2: I did enjoy seeing it again just for the sake
Speaker 2: of curiosity. There's a couple fun moments. And I am
Speaker 2: a very visual film viewer. I just I can watch
Speaker 2: a movie with a sound off and or I could
Speaker 2: watch a movie back to back easily because I just
Speaker 2: like looking at movies so much, so it doesn't even
Speaker 2: matter that I've seen the story already. I just like
Speaker 2: studying the frame. So this is this movie's a meal
Speaker 2: when it comes to beautiful shots. So I definitely did
Speaker 2: get something out of that. But at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, this isn't a movie that I feel like
Speaker 2: watching again just when I want to pop in a
Speaker 2: Superman movie another nineteen years maybe kind of. I mean,
Speaker 2: for all the reasons we've said, you know now for
Speaker 2: the past two plus hours, like it's just the characters
Speaker 2: don't feel like they really have any emotional connections. The
Speaker 2: story's kind of lacking urgency, languid, I mean that word.
Speaker 1: Just keeps coming to mind. Yeah, but beautiful.
Speaker 2: So it's it's it's a weird sort of mixed to,
Speaker 2: you know, negative leaning.
Speaker 1: Bag for me. Yeah. Yeah, well, and let me just
Speaker 1: add to that, it's not surprising at all that Warner
Speaker 1: Brothers ultimately looked at this as a bit of a
Speaker 1: cul de sac. Yeah, you know, because because one thing
Speaker 1: that really becomes clear is like, there wasn't really anywhere
Speaker 1: appealing to go. Yeah, why would I want to return
Speaker 1: to this right?
Speaker 2: Well, these characterizations because it's not like, oh well then
Speaker 2: I want to see what happens next between Clark and Lois, Like, well,
Speaker 2: I didn't get anything from this movie that makes.
Speaker 1: Me think that cul de sac is the perfect word.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the movie that should probably be kicking off a
Speaker 2: trilogy feels like a cul de sac that's so apt,
Speaker 2: you know. And and so it's not surprising at all
Speaker 2: that Warner Brothers went to Christopher Nolan and we're like, hey,
Speaker 2: can you can you can you do Superman?
Speaker 1: Also? You know, and and you know, it was it
Speaker 1: was his development process that ultimately led to David Goyer
Speaker 1: and then ultimately Zack Snyder et cetera, et cetera, and
Speaker 1: that and that all went fine. Nothing out of the
Speaker 1: ordinary happened in the wake of that. But but it
Speaker 1: is a reflection of like, we swung the pendulum in
Speaker 1: this direction, and then we were swinging it all the
Speaker 1: way in the other direction, and then to some extent
Speaker 1: this current iteration, we're swinging the pendulum all the way
Speaker 1: back in, maybe not in this exact direction, but away
Speaker 1: from where it was previously, you know. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: can we just maybe just find a happy medium? And
Speaker 1: you know, I hope something takes I hope, I hope
Speaker 1: people have learned the appropriate lessons. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it feels like people are willing to take
Speaker 2: more swings or not more swings. But with Batman, he
Speaker 2: gets more opportunity. As what I'm trying to say, like
Speaker 2: they just keep making them, and it feels like Superman
Speaker 2: has these longer gestation periods, right, you know, and I
Speaker 2: wonder why that is.
Speaker 1: You know, what's remarkable is that at the time Superman
Speaker 1: came the first movie, the seventy eight movie came out,
Speaker 1: it was a big hit, and it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: we got to do Batman next, and it was like, no, no,
Speaker 1: Batman is like, it's that that the sixties tvaw, nobody's
Speaker 1: gona take it seriously, you know, And that was such
Speaker 1: a high hill to get past that it took, you know,
Speaker 1: eleven years later for the for the movie to come
Speaker 1: out right. But it's like once Batman eighty nine happened,
Speaker 1: it just permanently situated Batman in the zeitgeist. Yeah, like,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's from Batman will always be cool. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I I say that as as a I
Speaker 1: if it comes down to it, I love them both,
Speaker 1: but Superman is still my guy. Uh Superman. It's weird,
Speaker 1: how despite the fact that that first movie created generated
Speaker 1: such cultural goodwill, Yeah, it it burned off and and
Speaker 1: they've they've been trying to recapture it ever since, at
Speaker 1: least in the movies, I mean TV wise, Superman has
Speaker 1: done okay, right, we've had between between uh the Quest
Speaker 1: for Peace and and now we've had one, two, three,
Speaker 1: four live action SUPERMANO wow. Right, So it's doing fine
Speaker 1: in that regard. But hopefully this new one will be
Speaker 1: where the flint finally catches a flame, you know, I hope.
Speaker 2: I'm very excited to talk about it with you soon.
Speaker 1: Well. With that in mind, those of you listening, if
Speaker 1: you have any thoughts on Superman returns or thoughts on
Speaker 1: our thoughts on Superman Returns, you can you can email
Speaker 1: us at moviefilmpodcast at gmail dot com. You can also
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Speaker 1: Patreon page Bran, Yes we do.
Speaker 2: If you head over to Patreon dot com slash moviefilm
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Speaker 2: you'll find every commentary we have ever done, and there
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Speaker 1: We'd be very grateful. There you go, and if you're
Speaker 1: looking for me online, you can find me on social
Speaker 1: media at Zachie's Corner. That's the Akis Corner. Also look
Speaker 1: for my write up at the San Francisco Chronicle where
Speaker 1: I look back at the nineteen seventy eight Superman movie
Speaker 1: and why it is so important even this many years later. Brian,
Speaker 1: what about you?
Speaker 2: Episodes I've written of Young Jedi Adventures can be found
Speaker 2: streaming on Disney Plus.
Speaker 1: There you go, and with that on behalf of my
Speaker 1: partner Brian Hall. My name is Zachia. This has been
Speaker 1: our commentary track for Superman returns. We'll catch you next time.
Speaker 1: Thanks folks,