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<v Speaker 1>Hey, folks, we are the Injective Policy Summit powered by

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<v Speaker 1>the Blockchain Association. And joining me is Charlie Durkin, who

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<v Speaker 1>is the principal solutions lead at chain Link. Charlie, great

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<v Speaker 1>to have.

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<v Speaker 2>You, Yeah, thanks for having me. Happy to be.

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<v Speaker 1>Here, Yeah, Charlie, lots to talk about. There's lots happening

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<v Speaker 1>in the chain Link ecosystem. Oh love to start with

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<v Speaker 1>your background. Tell us about your time in tradfy and

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<v Speaker 1>how do you.

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<v Speaker 2>Make a way to crypto Yeah, absolutely so. Prior to

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<v Speaker 2>joining Chainlink about a year ago, I spent a decaded

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<v Speaker 2>city group. I started my career in investment banking and

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<v Speaker 2>deck capital markets, so had a front row seat to

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<v Speaker 2>how issuers think about raising capital, specifically with investment grade bonds,

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<v Speaker 2>and also with that front row seat came a look

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<v Speaker 2>into the underlying machinery and how antiquated, I guess, for

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<v Speaker 2>lack of a better word, it can be. So moved

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<v Speaker 2>over after five years into the product management team on

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<v Speaker 2>capital markets, so transitioned from leveraging the plumbing to actually

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<v Speaker 2>building it and gave me great insight into how large

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<v Speaker 2>financial institutions think about building and adopting new technology. But

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<v Speaker 2>also why a rip and replace concept wouldn't work. And

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<v Speaker 2>so a year ago moved over to chain Link as

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<v Speaker 2>a principal solutions lead and it's really the synthesis of

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<v Speaker 2>those past two chapters. I sit in front of banks,

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<v Speaker 2>asset managers, market infrastructure providers, helped them adopt blockchain solutions

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<v Speaker 2>that are reliable, scalable and secure.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, with that backdrop, what made you think

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<v Speaker 1>of crypto and it maybe seeing the transition to blockchain

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<v Speaker 1>technology and rails.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was first introduced back in twenty seventeen when

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<v Speaker 2>a client of mine announced a blockchain deal and it

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<v Speaker 2>was eye opening of what is this? And you know

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<v Speaker 2>what is a blockchain bond? Very early days, right, it

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<v Speaker 2>was a poc. As we know, the industry has been

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<v Speaker 2>working through a lot over the last couple of years

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<v Speaker 2>to prove that the rails work. But introduce me to

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<v Speaker 2>digital assets, the team at City that's working on building

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<v Speaker 2>this infrastructure and really open my eyes to the efficiencies

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<v Speaker 2>that can be gained by leveraging this technology from anything

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<v Speaker 2>from payments to securities issuance in a robust, scalable manner.

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<v Speaker 1>And we're seeing a lot of institutions that are moving

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<v Speaker 1>towards tokenization. Many of them are leveraging chain links technology.

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<v Speaker 1>Are they all in they realize that we need to

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<v Speaker 1>have a digital asset strategy and are now building.

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<v Speaker 2>I would say yes, we are past the point of

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<v Speaker 2>is this a viable economic use case. Everyone is on

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<v Speaker 2>board that instantaneous settlement in twenty four to seven markets

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<v Speaker 2>makes sense, and so now it's a question of how

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<v Speaker 2>do we do that? And the missing piece that is

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<v Speaker 2>powering tokenization now moving from pilot to production is really orchestration.

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<v Speaker 2>You blockchains are great at a lot of things, but

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<v Speaker 2>not great at communicating with systems outside of that blockchain,

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<v Speaker 2>and so the missing piece has been orchestrating existing systems

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<v Speaker 2>communicating with with blockchains. Tokenization isn't just a It doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>exist just solely on a blockchain. It needs to communicate

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<v Speaker 2>with data, compliance rules, workflows that all live in legacy systems.

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<v Speaker 2>And so leveraging a lot of the chain link infrastructure

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<v Speaker 2>with chain link run time environment, we're seeing institutions move

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<v Speaker 2>from pilot to production.

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<v Speaker 1>Now. Yeah, it's fascinating because I see chaining popping up everywhere,

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<v Speaker 1>even with native crypto firms, not just Tradify and other

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<v Speaker 1>blockchains leveraging chain links technology, which in one way they're competitors,

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<v Speaker 1>but chain links technology is so great that it's being

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<v Speaker 1>adopted by its competitors in a way.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, it's so if I can talk about some

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<v Speaker 2>of the things going on a chain link right in general,

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<v Speaker 2>we're seeing recent announcements the DTCC with their collateral app

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<v Speaker 2>Chain is leveraging chain link orchestration and data standards to

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<v Speaker 2>power twenty four to seven collateral mobility with near real

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<v Speaker 2>term pricing, leveraging chain link technology. And again this is

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<v Speaker 2>as of yesterday, no longer pilot, this is production. We

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<v Speaker 2>saw JP Morgan in production leverage token I shares to

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<v Speaker 2>post as collateral with the CME. From a payments perspective,

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<v Speaker 2>we're working on Project Panagaea, which is fifty plus banks

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<v Speaker 2>working to take FX settlement from T plus two to

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<v Speaker 2>T plus zero. And then to your point, Robin Hood's

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<v Speaker 2>chain is leveraging chain link oracles and CCIP. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think the through line is whether you are a market

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<v Speaker 2>infrastructure provider, a bank, or a leading fintech or Web

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<v Speaker 2>three native, you are looking to chain link for the

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<v Speaker 2>security and reliability that come with our standards.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, and that's an incredible adoption. Robinhood DTCC do stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>and there's also CCIP. I'm seeing a lot around that

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<v Speaker 1>chain links g CCIP with Swift and other banks and

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<v Speaker 1>things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, certainly so CCIP. When we think about the evolution

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<v Speaker 2>of the market from a Web three perspective, chain link

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<v Speaker 2>obviously's bread and butter is data oracles. So we help

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<v Speaker 2>power DeFi summer that connected data securely and reliably into blockchain.

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<v Speaker 2>The next piece of that was connecting these disparate systems,

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<v Speaker 2>and so CCIP is that standard that everyone is trusting

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<v Speaker 2>to do that again securely, reliably and scalably across the

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<v Speaker 2>entire industry. And so it allows you to maintain neutrality

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<v Speaker 2>and not have to lock into a specific chain, which

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<v Speaker 2>is chain links motto here right, is to maintain neutrality

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<v Speaker 2>and you don't have to get locked into any one

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<v Speaker 2>standard and you can pick and choose.

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<v Speaker 1>That's really great. Are you guys building any technology around

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<v Speaker 1>AI agents, existing services and solutions, the ability for AI

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<v Speaker 1>agents to use those things.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So chain link has been actually at the forefront

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<v Speaker 2>of this convergence of AI and blockchain for a little while.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll take a step back and mention that with AI

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<v Speaker 2>coming into blockchain, the largest friction point or I don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to say issue, but what people are struggling with

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<v Speaker 2>is there's no undo button on blockchains. So if you

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<v Speaker 2>have an agent that goes and you know, is allowed

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<v Speaker 2>to send real world values to some other wilet address

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<v Speaker 2>and make a mistake, you're not getting that back. And

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<v Speaker 2>so how do you do this in a framework that

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<v Speaker 2>maintains guardrails and is leveraging secure data And so that's

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<v Speaker 2>where chain link sits. It provides the data you can trust.

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<v Speaker 2>Our compliance solutions allow you to establish frameworks and ensure

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<v Speaker 2>that agents don't act outside of the bounds of those

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<v Speaker 2>those frameworks, and then everything is verifiable and you have

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<v Speaker 2>a record on chain We have experience with this. We

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<v Speaker 2>did Project Calm, which was our corporate actions use case

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<v Speaker 2>with Swift and Euroclear, where you take one of the

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<v Speaker 2>messiest parts of traditional finance. So a corporate action could be,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, dividend payment. These things come out in a

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<v Speaker 2>press release that's just a PDF, and the entire market

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<v Speaker 2>has to figure out what that means for who owns

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<v Speaker 2>these assets. And so what this project was was we

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<v Speaker 2>took the raw PDF and leveraging the chain link decentralized

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<v Speaker 2>oracle network, ran it through three different lms, they reached

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<v Speaker 2>consensus on it, and then put that into a standard

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<v Speaker 2>on chain that anybody could then use for an on

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<v Speaker 2>chain action item. So we've been across this now for

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<v Speaker 2>a little while, and it's really exciting to see the

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<v Speaker 2>market progressing towards AI and blockchain adoption.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's so funny. These two technologies are running in parallel.

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<v Speaker 1>AI blockchain look and robotics as well. It's a brave

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<v Speaker 1>new world and we have the technology like chain link

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<v Speaker 1>in the blockchain reels to help manage and control if

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<v Speaker 1>you want to say that it's fascinating.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely.

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<v Speaker 1>Now let's talk a bit about what institutions are looking

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<v Speaker 1>to do. We touch a bit on tokenization. Is that

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<v Speaker 1>their number one priority right now is also stable coins

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<v Speaker 1>are already looking to do other things like DeFi as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's two threads. I would say, there's tokenization of

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<v Speaker 2>real world assets and then there's figuring out the payment infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we hear a lot of stable coins tokenized

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<v Speaker 2>deposits and which one is going to win. I'm of

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<v Speaker 2>the camp that I don't think there will be a winner.

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<v Speaker 2>What will need to happen for the end user is

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<v Speaker 2>that it's all abstracted away in the back end, because

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<v Speaker 2>someone shouldn't have to choose to use a stable coin

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<v Speaker 2>or tokenized deposit. They just want to tap their phone

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<v Speaker 2>and pay and have it right right, and at the

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<v Speaker 2>end of the day, a dollar needs to be a dollar,

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<v Speaker 2>so you need to maintain the singleness of money, and

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<v Speaker 2>all of this everyone agrees with. It's just working on

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<v Speaker 2>the incredibly complex legacy infrastructure that powers existing payment rails,

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<v Speaker 2>and so a lot of my conversations with banks and

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<v Speaker 2>asset managers these days is figuring out how to leverage

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<v Speaker 2>both tokenized deposits and stable coins, two different issuers products

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<v Speaker 2>that have different risk profiles and requirements under regulation. But

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<v Speaker 2>how do you make this work for whether I'm a

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<v Speaker 2>retail user or a corporate treasurer that I just am

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<v Speaker 2>able to send this twenty four to seven three sixty

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<v Speaker 2>five and have it instantaneously settle and I don't need

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<v Speaker 2>to worry about whether this is a coin or deposit.

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<v Speaker 2>And so all that being said is in order for

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<v Speaker 2>tokenization to really take off, you need the liquidity on

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<v Speaker 2>chain to power that and so it's it's not quite

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<v Speaker 2>as sexy as some of the other headlines right that

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<v Speaker 2>you'll see, you know, vaults, perps, prediction markets, all great products, right,

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<v Speaker 2>but in the background, everyone is hyper focused on how

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<v Speaker 2>do we figure out payments natively settling on chain.

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<v Speaker 1>That absolutely makes sense because whether it's retail or corporate,

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<v Speaker 1>you need to figure out how we can move the

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<v Speaker 1>value efficiently, seamlessly and less friction. So to tokenize deposits,

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<v Speaker 1>to your point, like, I don't see it that competed

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<v Speaker 1>with stable coins because it's more on the corporate side

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<v Speaker 1>or wholesale side.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, and it is. It gets even more complex

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<v Speaker 2>because when a stable coin is sent, you just have

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<v Speaker 2>the underlying asset, but when tokenized deposits are sent from

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<v Speaker 2>bank A to bank B, that's a balance sheet liability

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<v Speaker 2>that needs to be transferred over. And how do you

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<v Speaker 2>connect into the RTGs systems that power those rails. How

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<v Speaker 2>do you ensure that this is again just a seamless,

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<v Speaker 2>instantaneous transfer when there's underlying fiat that doesn't necessarily move

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<v Speaker 2>at that same speed, whereas counterparty risk happen. All of

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<v Speaker 2>this though, with these banks that we're having conversations with

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<v Speaker 2>This is where the chain liingk frontime environment is able

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<v Speaker 2>to allow them to have a single integration point into

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<v Speaker 2>their legacy systems and then power an on chain action

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<v Speaker 2>with compliance embedded.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, chain Link has a lot of solutions and services,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm curious what else are you guys working on

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<v Speaker 1>that you can share that might be on your road map.

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<v Speaker 2>So that I can share, I'll say that we're enhancing

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<v Speaker 2>and continuing to build out the robustness of both the

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<v Speaker 2>orchestration technology CRE as well as our compliance solutions ACE.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is another critical piece because when you think

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<v Speaker 2>about on chain finance, you need to ensure that obviously

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<v Speaker 2>it was born in a permissionless environment, but if I'm

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<v Speaker 2>a bank and I have a tokenized deposit, I need

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<v Speaker 2>to make sure that doesn't end up in an o

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<v Speaker 2>FAC sanctioned wilet address. And so what our compliance solution

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<v Speaker 2>allows you to do is maintain policies off chain so

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<v Speaker 2>you can update them as needed based off of regulatory

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<v Speaker 2>updates without needing to redeploy a contract. And I like

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<v Speaker 2>to say that it doesn't it doesn't allow for compliance

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<v Speaker 2>to be possible. It makes non compliance impossible on chain

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<v Speaker 2>because you now have a smart contract executing code that

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<v Speaker 2>says absolutely this while it cannot own this asset.

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<v Speaker 1>Right. That's really great because in order to have the

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<v Speaker 1>adoption from these large institutions at a full scale, you

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<v Speaker 1>need the compliance. You got to be in line with

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<v Speaker 1>the regulations and much more.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's it's fun having these conversations too, especially

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<v Speaker 2>with you know, work with front office, work with technology teams,

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<v Speaker 2>but chainlink also talks a lot to internal risk and

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<v Speaker 2>compliance teams. And there's been plenty of negative headlines over

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<v Speaker 2>different cycles within the web three and so there can

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<v Speaker 2>still be a negative perception of what it means to

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<v Speaker 2>be using blockchain. But it's exciting having these conversations because

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<v Speaker 2>it we're able to show actually, what you're doing is

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<v Speaker 2>reducing risk your code of filed this and ensuring that

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<v Speaker 2>a mistake can't happen because you have smart contracts executing

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<v Speaker 2>this instead of manual workflows as it does today.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm assuming with the programmability, regardless of if you're

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<v Speaker 1>in the US, the EU, or the UK, it can

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<v Speaker 1>automatically comply to the respective regulations of the region or jurisdiction.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's absolutely right. You're doing my job for me. Actually,

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<v Speaker 2>this compliance follows the asset around to whatever jurisdiction and

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<v Speaker 2>can adopt that compliance regulatory requirement as needed.

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<v Speaker 1>And over time, I think I read an article just

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<v Speaker 1>the other day to the US and the UK, or

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<v Speaker 1>was it the EU they're working on finalizing some rules

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<v Speaker 1>about tokenized assets, so aligning over time. As they these

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<v Speaker 1>governments all align, it will be much easier to do

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<v Speaker 1>that programmability right.

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<v Speaker 2>It certainly will, And I know there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>talk around regulation right whether laws will pass here in

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<v Speaker 2>the US that will provide further clarity U pun intended

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<v Speaker 2>very much needed and will allow for far more robust adoption.

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<v Speaker 2>But I will say from my seat, it's not the

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<v Speaker 2>lack of it right now isn't preventing any of these

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<v Speaker 2>institutions from doing the legwork right. These financial firms think

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<v Speaker 2>about a tech roadmap in the span of years, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and so we're all fully aware that we'll have the

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<v Speaker 2>regulatory clarity eventually, but there's a lot of work to

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<v Speaker 2>do to get the internal infrastructure compatible and linked up

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<v Speaker 2>to the blockchain ecosystem. And so you know, when October

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<v Speaker 2>happened last year, I think that one of the most

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<v Speaker 2>surprising things about my job is that my conversations didn't

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<v Speaker 2>change at all. It's like markets go up, markets go down.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a infrastructure for efficiency and speed play, and

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to continue marching on.

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<v Speaker 1>So, Charlie, it's twenty thirty six. All the institutions right

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<v Speaker 1>now are all setting up the blockchain reils. Are we

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<v Speaker 1>seeing one market with assets on chain, movement of money

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<v Speaker 1>behind the scenes, with stable coins and tokenized deposits, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's all one market?

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<v Speaker 2>I think so. And I think that when I say

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<v Speaker 2>one market, I want to say that for the end user,

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<v Speaker 2>if I want to buy an asset or make a payment,

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<v Speaker 2>that very well could be multiple chains, different standards across

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<v Speaker 2>each chain. But the connectivity that chain Link is working

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<v Speaker 2>on with partners to make this one ecosystem will make

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<v Speaker 2>that feel like one market, and everything will just be

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<v Speaker 2>seamless and abstracted away from the end user, and all

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<v Speaker 2>that complexity will be erased, at least for the eyes

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<v Speaker 2>of whoever is purchasing the asset.

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<v Speaker 1>It's so fascinat because it's going to be a multichain world,

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<v Speaker 1>and chain Link is like the conductor and the symphony

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<v Speaker 1>is all these different blockchains of playing different instruments, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that is a that's a great analogy. I like

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<v Speaker 2>that you can have it.

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<v Speaker 1>No, yeah, Charlie, great stuff. I'm looking forward to the

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<v Speaker 1>future updates 'I Ron Schanlink and love to have you

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<v Speaker 1>back on. But thank you so much for taking the

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<v Speaker 1>time to do this.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, thank you for having me. This was fantastic.

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<v Speaker 1>This episode is brought to you by Fortax. Guys, Let's

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<v Speaker 1>be honest, the crypto market has been moving sideways for

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<v Speaker 1>a while now. A lot of people are just sitting

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<v Speaker 1>on their coins waiting for the next big move. But

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<v Speaker 1>while you're waiting, your crypto is just sitting in your

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<v Speaker 1>wallet doing absolutely nothing. That's why I want to mention

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<v Speaker 1>one of my longtime partners, Fortax. Instead of just letting

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<v Speaker 1>reasons I've continued working with them is because they keep delivering.

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<v Speaker 1>assets to work. And folks, I know security is very

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<v Speaker 1>you so much for tuning in. Please hit the like

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